Where illegal immigration, business and the law collide
“Look, I’m not a criminal. I don’t go around breaking the law, because for one thing I have way too much to lose. I do everything by the book. But if this law goes into effect, I’m telling you I’m not going to follow it. I’m just not. Because I can’t.”
I was sitting at a restaurant bar, talking to its owner about the potential impact of House Bill 87, the illegal immigration bill. He had contacted me, asking if I wanted to hear “the economic perspective of a small business owner,” with the understanding that he would remain anonymous.
“Some restaurant owners who publicly opposed this bill have received death threats, leading me to want to stay below the radar,” he explained in the email. On that basis, we agreed to meet.
If the law survives legal challenge and goes into effect, the owner said, he would face two choices: He could obey the law, lose a very big chunk of his ktichen staff and be forced out of business; or he could evade the law and save his business.
“I’ve got my future and my family’s future tied up in this,” he said, looking around at the bustling restaurant. “We’re doing good right now, but I’m in debt millions of dollars. And when I made that decision (to borrow the money), I didn’t have any idea that they’d be passing a law like this. My bank didn’t have any idea they’d be passing a law like this.”
“I don’t get it. They talk about jobs jobs jobs. The only two industries generating revenue and jobs for Georgia are hospitality and agriculture. And this is going to ruin them both. And it’s not just my kitchen staff who will lose their jobs. All of my front-of-the house workers [bartenders, waiters, hostesses], they’ll be out of work too. We’ve already lost the construction industry, and now we’re going to lose these too. Nobody I know is considering opening another restaurant in this state.”
In fact, if the construction industry was still booming as it was a few years ago, he said, there’s no way the Legislature would have passed HB 87. Back then, too many politically connected people were making too much money off illegal workers. And the hospitality and agriculture industries just don’t have the clout that developers once wielded.
Right now, he said, he does everything he can to abide by the law. He doesn’t pay anybody off the books, which means that everybody on his staff is paying taxes. “This claim that they don’t pay taxes — I don’t get that,” he says. “Yeah, they may not pay a lot in income taxes, but nobody else in those jobs does either [because they don't make a lot of money]. But they pay sales taxes, property taxes, unemployment taxes, and they’re paying a lot of money into Social Security that they’re never going to get back.”
“See that guy right there,” he said, nodding his head toward a nearby waiter. “He’s been in this country since he was five, when his parents brought him here. He graduated from high school here, and he probably speaks better English than I do. He doesn’t know a damn thing about Mexico. And they want to send him back? Back to what? Have you seen what’s going on in Mexico these days?”
“I’m trying to grow my business; I’m trying to help my people grow and build good lives. I don’t think the politicians know what they’re doing. I just don’t think they’ve thought this through.”
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780 comments Add your comment
Don't Tread
May 24th, 2011
8:50 am
higher wages, and the higher prices he would have to charge as a result, would “break the model” and make his business unprofitable
Too bad. I say he needs a new model, one that actually fiollows the law. The really snooty high end restaurants don’t seem to have a problem making a profit – hire a good executive chef, require a coat and tie (and maybe a membership) to be seated, and go for it.
Peadawg
May 24th, 2011
8:50 am
“You questioned the restaurant owner’s credibility.”
“And you say the restaurant owner has a credibility problem over the believability of his statements?!!?”
Wrong again, Paul. Where did I say I didn’t believe the owner? That’s 2 strikes. Do you want to try for 3?
thomas
May 24th, 2011
8:50 am
Southern Comfort
May 24th, 2011
8:45 am
That is used because they also must report tips, although many do not report an accurate amount.
The small wage usually 2.13 an hour is averaged in with the tips. In my case an average of around $200. That would be for a diner shift from 4pm-10pm. Adding in the $2.13/hr for 6 hrs is like a total of $212 for around 6 hours of work.
What does that come out to? Around $32/hr total
Wow those poor souls!
How many folk you know right now making $32/hr?
What is that over 50k per yr, if working 40hrs per week?
Bosch
May 24th, 2011
8:50 am
“this sounds like a made up story” = “this conflicts with my view of reality, so it must be false”/i
And THAT’S why we like our Paul……
…and BLOG GOD!!!! I’m getting tired of you telling me to slow down on my posting…..just saying.
AmVet
May 24th, 2011
8:50 am
“I trust you all realize that this entire situation is the result of government setting wages instead of the market.”
???????????????????????????
(Actually a few more are in order after that doozie, but you get the idea!)
Finn, great call!
A nice cover of my favorite Zimmerman ditty from my fave Dylan LP…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z5NkDnWGKuE&feature=related
Aquagirl
May 24th, 2011
8:51 am
Pea, for those people it’s not MEXICO’S problem, it’s THEIR problem. They don’t really give a crap who started the problem. They don’t want to see their kid malnourished or raped or shot in crossfire. How very christian of you to blather “hey, it’s not MY problem.”
And what makes you think we don’t contribute to Mexico’s problems? Hey, your government is helping cause those problems.
Finn McCool
May 24th, 2011
8:51 am
The really snooty high end restaurants don’t seem to have a problem making a profit
LOL, so the high-end restaurants don’t hire them? Wake up, please.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
May 24th, 2011
8:51 am
Basic criminal law 101….you keep raising the “penalties” but it does not accomplish deterrence and actually encourages otherwise law obedient citizens to fail to report “crimes”. If harsh penalties worked to deter in and by themselves, states which had death penalties would have lower crime rates than states without.
Paul
May 24th, 2011
8:52 am
Mighty Righty
How is “the resturant ownweer will have to pay $2500 dollars per month per employee unless he gets the Pelosi treatment” the same as “allowing undocumented workers to purchase their own health insurance with no subsidies”?
And workmen’s comp applies, if I understand correctly, only to on the job injury. Not other medical costs for the person or family.
But that all avoided the question: Guess who killed the proposal?
stands for decibels
May 24th, 2011
8:53 am
Overwhelming response “we don’t care if we waste it. We want more. Every other restaurant gives us more. You do that, we’ll leave.”
That’s some model.
First reaction: Shaking head, muttering “whaddaya gone do…”
Second reaction: “Hey, Paul might get a kick out of this, particularly if I mention that the writer hails originally from El Paso and grew up in West Texas…”
http://pandagon.net/index.php/site/comments/food_saturdays_eat_a_tamale_for_michelle_edition
Finn McCool
May 24th, 2011
8:53 am
I guess some people just don’t like capitalism. A business owner pocketing more money by being choosey in hiring practices is a keen eye on maximizing profits.
Jay
May 24th, 2011
8:54 am
For the record, he said he pays his kitchen staff between $8 and $15 an hour and abides by all tax and employment laws.
Southern Comfort
May 24th, 2011
8:54 am
thomas
That’s fine and good for the person that averages $200 a day in tips, but I know people who work as servers, and that’s not the norm, especially with the economy down as it is right now. I understand your point, and I don’t disagree with you. Just playing devil’s advocate today. Anything and everything done in America boils down to money. If we’re all aspiring to get to that corner office with a view, there has to be someone to take the server, fruit picker, and other jobs that we’re trying to leave behind.
Dave R.
May 24th, 2011
8:56 am
“Question I have to ask: what good comes from a law like this?”
Sorry for not answering earlier. I was too busy breathing a sigh of relief after finding out that the preacher who predicted the end of the world for last week, now says his calculations were off by 5 months. We get a mulligan, folks!
Anyway, what good comes from a law like this?
Balance.
We have restaurants, hotels, golf courses etc. keeping costs artificially low by using illegal aliens and paying them less. Some pass on those savings in lower prices we pay, and some just take higher profit margins. Either way, there is an inherent imbalance in the system when illegal aliens are hired over legals or citizens.
In addition, estimates run as high as a trillion dollars each year in health care, infrastructure and law enforcement costs due to illegal immigrant activity, all of which are passed on to the taxpayer or the insurance companies in higher costs to do business, ultimately affecting the rates of those who pay.
In this rare instance, we have a case of government INACTION, rather than the usual action, that is causing this imbalance in our economy. I remember a comment from last night where someone said that big government doesn’t necessarily mean bad government. Guess what? This immigration issue is a perfect example of big, bad government.
Balance is the good that comes from dealing with the illegal alien problem.
Reduce their levels, hire Americans at more equitable wages. Prices go up accordingly, but costs across the board in the other areas mentioned above go down.
Balance. Not an artificially induced marketplace made possible by big, bad government interference.
Finn McCool
May 24th, 2011
8:57 am
AmVet, that’s my favorite album too!
Meet me in The Morning
You’re Gonna Make Me Lonesome When You Go
Shelter From the Storm
Tangled Up in Blue
Pretty amazing record
SoGaVet
May 24th, 2011
8:57 am
Jay, sounds like he can’t get American workers because all his jobs have gone to the illegals.
thomas
May 24th, 2011
8:57 am
Aquagirl
May 24th, 2011
8:51 am
There are kids in our country who are malnourished or raped or shot in crossfire?
Shouldn’t we worry about our own problems before fixing others who have teh same problem as us?
http://www.paralumun.com/issuesrapestats.htm
http://www.news-press.com/…/Children-caught-Fort-Myers-shooting-crossfire-hospital-faces-aftermath – Cached
So shouldn’t all of us south of Canada be running accross those boarders?
Everyone to Canada, where nobody will starve, be raped or get caught in any crossfire!
Bosch
May 24th, 2011
8:58 am
The “solution” some have that they can just get rid of the “illegals” and hire Americans is not really a solution — again, it’s theory vs. reality. If they do hire Americans, the prices go up and you lose clientele.
poison pen
May 24th, 2011
8:59 am
Doggone/GA
May 24th, 2011
8:32 am
“Why would they keep crossing the border if there are no jobs for them”
Because there WILL be jobs for them. As long as we are willing to punish the workers, and NOT the business owners they will come – because getting paid is better than not getting paid.
Doggone, at what point in time should Mexico take care of their own people. There Govt is extremely corrupt and the drug cartels run just about everything over there. Why do you feel that we have to allow these people into our country illegally?
I think they should take control of their own Govt and demand better living standards and more jobs, it’s called a revolution.
Peadawg
May 24th, 2011
8:59 am
“How very christian of you to blather “hey, it’s not MY problem.””
I’m more than willing to help other countries IF WE CAN AFFORD IT…which we can’t.
Dave R.
May 24th, 2011
9:00 am
“and BLOG GOD!!!! I’m getting tired of you telling me to slow down on my posting”
Bosch, you have two choices when going up against the BLOG GOD.
Acquiesce, or face the consequences.
Just sayin’!
Paul
May 24th, 2011
9:00 am
“For the record, he said he pays his kitchen staff between $8 and $15 an hour and abides by all tax and employment laws.”
but…. but….. but………so okay, the restaurant owner’s exaggerating again to make himself look good, right?!!? And now he’s encouraging even more illegals to move to Georgia because he’s paying them so much more while decent real Americans can’t find a job!!!!!! , right?
heh heh.
(I like the way you let the thread develop and the comments flow before releasing that little tidbit)
godless heathen
May 24th, 2011
9:01 am
Jay : “For the record, he said he pays his kitchen staff between $8 and $15 an hour and abides by all tax and employment laws.”
“U.S. law requires companies to employ only individuals who may legally work in the United States – either U.S. citizens, or foreign citizens who have the necessary authorization.”
So what is his worry?
thomas
May 24th, 2011
9:01 am
Southern Comfort
May 24th, 2011
8:54 am
With a 10% unemployment rate, the value of the dollar falling continuously it seems, and our boarders aboutas open as a drunk prom date maybe we shouldn’t be running away from all those jobs.
BTW I have no aspirations for a corner office or any of that. Can’t stand being couped up all day.
Paul
May 24th, 2011
9:01 am
Dave R. 8:56
Care for a mulligan in light of Jay’s 8:54?
godless heathen
May 24th, 2011
9:02 am
???????????????????????????
(Actually a few more are in order after that doozie, but you get the idea!)
AmVet, I don’t have the time to school you on the free market but I’m sure if you take a minute to think about it, it will begin to make sense. Start by thinking “The employee’s value to the employer.”
stands for decibels
May 24th, 2011
9:02 am
Jay, why does the Blog God hate Amanda Marcotte?
(this is the second time in the past few days that I’ve tried to link to her blog at pandagon dot net… and the post doesn’t say “awaiting moderation”, it just goes poof. the hell?)
stands for decibels
May 24th, 2011
9:03 am
I don’t have the time to school you on the free market
tell me about the rabbits, George.
stands for decibels
May 24th, 2011
9:04 am
our boarders aboutas open as a drunk prom date
that’s so wrong on so many levels.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
May 24th, 2011
9:05 am
I’m more than willing to help other countries IF WE CAN AFFORD IT…which we can’t
What a crock! While I am not advocating a return to the tax rate from Ike’s time, we can afford and have afforded a lot more taxes on citizens and corporations in a progressive system. The “we can’t afford it” baloney is all part of the starve the beast deception to benefit the corporate and rich overlords.
Okay…….I am done with my AmVet moment
I return you to regular programming.
Peadawg
May 24th, 2011
9:05 am
“For the record, he said he pays his kitchen staff between $8 and $15 an hour and abides by all tax and employment laws.”
If that’s the case then I’m sure there are many many unemployed that would be willing to take that job and all his whining is for nothing.
jt
May 24th, 2011
9:06 am
If I suspect that help is using forged ID,,,,,,,,,I sometimes give a little American history quiz.
Not once have I had one give the incorrect answer to this question………What were the three greatest presidents?
1-George Washington
2-Jefferson Davis
3-Sir Ronald Reagan
Overall, we have much to learn from these folks(how to ignore corrupt Federalies) and we have much to teach.(what Poncho Villa did wrong).
Mighy Righty
May 24th, 2011
9:06 am
Illegal immigration is the 2011 version of slavery. Once here, they have to work for wages that are less than minimum, live sometimes 20 people to an apartment, are taken advantage of at every turn, are scared to death and in general are treated less than humanitarian. These conditions are promoted by liberal Democrats continuing to oppose any program that will lessen or stop illegal immigration. Immigrants who are here legally have rights and cannot be treated like slaves. It is Democrats, not Republicans who favor importation of illegal cheap labor. But then, Democrats do have a history of importing cheap labor.
kayaker 71
May 24th, 2011
9:06 am
So, if I am hearing you right, we have to keep these illegal “refugees”, as Granny calls them, to keep US business from taking a dive. We have become so dependent on these poor unfortunates that to lose them threatens to close down business and let present employees go. Give me a friggin’ break. Wonder what US business did before the several million of these people were here to save our arse? Is that why the present unemployment rate is still at about 10%? That’s a great sob story, Bookman but it just don’t wash. If these “refugees” were sent home, perhaps we could employ a few Americans, if they would work. But your liberal handout programs make it cheaper for those that suck off of the govt teat to just stay home and crack their first beer before 9:00 am while talking on their govt supplied cell phones about the next crack sale. Don’t tell me that that eatery owner didn’t know he was taking a chance by hiring illegals after borrowing money to get his business off the blocks. We had another financial crisis not long ago about, let’s see, lots of people who signed contracts to purchase houses that they couldn’t pay for….. and now it’s someone elses fault. This business owner has no one to blame but himself.
jd
May 24th, 2011
9:07 am
If we’re worried about folks getting benefits for free — how about the folks who pay no income taxes cuz they sent their businesses overseas? Yet, they rely on US Govt to defend those business interests?
Dave R.
May 24th, 2011
9:08 am
“Care for a mulligan in light of Jay’s 8:54?”
No, Paul. Don’t need one.
First, we have the third-party accounting of an anonymous restaurant owner.
Second, we have no way to verify his statement.
Third, Jay is hardly an unbiased source of information.
Fourth, even if ALL the article were true (and there are certainly some statements that smack of incredulity) we have ONE account of conditions and wages.
So, are YOU willing to concede that even if the wages are true, that those wages do not automatically translate into similar wages in other industries for illegal workers?
AmVet
May 24th, 2011
9:09 am
“tell me about the rabbits, George.”
First Peadawg throws out a great Dumb & Dumber reference, and now some fabulous Steinbeck, to boot!
Thanks, Bosch, You’re a good buddy.
I suppose some of those indicted think I write such things simply to stir up trouble.
Not so.
I can and have changed my positions on several matters of import over the past years- nuclear energy and capital punishment for example.
BUT, when it comes to taking adamant positions on these great ideas of our times, I don’t act like a capricious Republican, and dance to whomever is leading the band.
I excoriated Bush for Iraq. I’ve done the same with Obama. I flamed the previous administration for their disregard for US laws and sacred personal liberties – habeus corpus, illegally spying on Americans, etc, etc, etc. And I’ve done the same with this one. I hold virtually all of them accountable, to some complicit degree or another, for the wholesale sell off of we the people’s sovereignty to corporate dictators.
And it is irrefutable that some of these pro-war, pro-corporatist cons found some level of redemption on these matters. On January 21, 2009.
And then only until another Republican sits in the West Wing…
N-GA
May 24th, 2011
9:10 am
Good morning, Paul!
r.e. your 7:56 post. It’s so very interesting when police departments express support or opposition for/against an issue. Police departments across the US want to ban assault weapons, but politicians think they know better. Those same police want to require gun show dealers do the same background check as storefront dealers. Why do conservatives hate our police?
Jay
May 24th, 2011
9:13 am
It was falsely ID’d as spam, Stands. It has now been posted.
Peadawg
May 24th, 2011
9:13 am
“Do you advocate the support, (monetary, weapons & intelligence) that we give to Israel (in the billions) yearly?”
I don’t pick and choose which countries, Debbie. Nice try though. I’ve stated me position about foreign aide on here many times.
DebbieDoRight
May 24th, 2011
9:13 am
I’m more than willing to help other countries IF WE CAN AFFORD IT…which we can’t
Do you advocate the support, (monetary, weapons & intelligence) that we give to Israel (in the billions) yearly?
Aquagirl
May 24th, 2011
9:13 am
Thomas @ 8:57, no, we shouldn’t be running to Canada, because there are actual working police and places that are relatively safe in this country. But funny you should mention that. Have you seen the buses headed North to get cheap Canadian drugs? When grandma can’t afford her heart medication, telling her “that’s not MY problem” doesn’t work well. Fortunately the Canadians aren’t as xenophobic and just plain nutty to think screaming “go home” at the top of their lungs will make grandma decide to place their offendedness above her survival.
Mexicans and other Central/S. Americans aren’t coming here for the scenery. They’re streaming here because of huge political problems, and wingnuts could care less about why. Hell, if we stopped SENDING money to those governments for their drug wars we could have double savings: less payments and fewer illegal immigrants.
But gosh, that’s not as much fun as telling everyone else in the world what to do and screeching like a fruitcake. You keep on hollering. It’ll do nothing, but apparently you enjoy that temporary hit of hate-adrenaline to actually solving the problem. Enjoy your crushing tax burden and pressing 1 for English.
AmVet
May 24th, 2011
9:15 am
“AmVet, I don’t have the time to school you on the free market …”
Lord be praised!
jt, I salute you fro being mysteriously deceptive.
Reading your posts – especially that 9:06 – it is exceedingly difficult to determine if it is outright sarcasm, or if you really do proffer those ideas!
Well played. Keep me guessing…
jm
May 24th, 2011
9:16 am
This guy is already knowingly breaking the law, and wants to claim its the governments fault for suggesting some kind of enforcement for law? Are you kidding me?
Today must be parable day, because this story is just too much of a joke.
His complaint: I already hire below legal wage immigrant workers so I don’t have to pay them minimum wage and benefits. Therefore, I’m going to keep breaking the law because I won’t comply with the law. Whatever
Ernesto
May 24th, 2011
9:16 am
I agree with most conservatives regarding with abortion, spending, definition of marriage, some foreign policies… but when it comes to immigration I just can’t agree. We have over 12 million of illegal immigrants in this country and many of them if not most of them are just trying to make a living. They cost taxpayers a lot of money but they also greatly contribute to our economy. It’s just idiotic to have laws such as HB87 with out having a legal path for those who are in the country illegally or having the border secured.
Finn McCool
May 24th, 2011
9:16 am
the dollar falling continuously it seems
That is what’s best for American manufacturing. Makes our products more affordable overseas.
Themistocles (a.k.a. Left Wing Mgmt)
May 24th, 2011
9:16 am
“The truth is we’re all in this together”, says GOP candidate Tim Pawlenty.
I’m guessing undocumented immigrants won’t come under that “WE” here for Pawlenty.
jm
May 24th, 2011
9:17 am
“The only two industries generating revenue and jobs for Georgia are hospitality and agriculture”
inflated sense of self importance. wrong.
DebbieDoRight
May 24th, 2011
9:17 am
jt: What were the three greatest presidents?
1-George Washington
2-Jefferson Davis
3-Sir Ronald Reagan
Overall, we have much to learn from these folks(how to ignore corrupt Federalies) and we have much to teach.(what Poncho Villa did wrong).
LOL
Too funny!
PS: the president part was a classic!! you named a federalist, a manifest destiny whack job and indian murderer, and someone who, while still in office, couldn’t remember if he talked to Oliver North or not!!
Classic!!!
Dave R.
May 24th, 2011
9:18 am
“It was falsely ID’d as spam, Stands. It has now been posted.”
Jay, it took you about 11 minutes to correct an issue brought up regarding spam. Good work, BTW.
Why hasn’t anything been done about the time warp pre-posting and the BLOG GOD saying that two fingered typists are posting too quickly? Is anyone even looking into these issues?
Jay
May 24th, 2011
9:18 am
Dave R., I’ve filed a ticket on that but haven’t heard back. I will resubmit.
Common Sense
May 24th, 2011
9:18 am
“I’ve got my future and my family’s future tied up in this,” he said, looking around at the bustling restaurant. “We’re doing good right now, but I’m in debt millions of dollars. And when I made that decision (to borrow the money), I didn’t have any idea that they’d be passing a law like this. My bank didn’t have any idea they’d be passing a law like this.”
So here is a business that has millions in debt, and the key to it having a chance to make it is lower than what the prevailing market wage would be because of illegal labor.
What other resources would we be willing to allow this business to use to try to break even?
This and so many other businesses are out there, competing against businesses that use only legal labor. This business takes away sales and profit from the legitimate businesses, causing them to fail as well.
Without the allure of this cheap labor that would allow (in theory) this business to earn a profit, would they have gone into business in the first place?
Would the strip malls that are everywhere, housing thousands of these businesses which now rely on illegal labor to operate, have been built without this demand?
Bookman would like to paint a picture of this poor businessman struggling to make it, and how important it is for him to have access to this labor.
Hospitality and construction businesses were ruined before the collapse. This is because the artificially high demand was fed by the flow of illegals into this area.
Had we kept the lid on the borders, and on illegal labor, the markets would have grown slower, not reached the size they did prior to the collapse, and would have been healthier for all legal residents in every way. Legitimate businesses would have had more, sales, more profits, and paid higher wages to many of the unemployed legal workers.
When you allow a free market to be artificially stimulated via below market loan rates, 0% down payments, and yes, below market illegal labor, the downtown will always be more severe.
No legitimate business owner should be forced to compete with those that go into business, and rely on illegal labor.
Even with the illegal labor, this business cannot turn a profit. It should be out of business, and not competing with those that use legitimate labor.
Forcing businesses to continue competing with others that should not even exist is one of the many reasons that there are not enough profits to stimulate hiring here in the metro area.
Profits are the key to future hiring.
And as long as this illegitimate business is taking dollars and customers from legitimate businesses, everyone suffers.
This is NOT a victimless crime.
Mighy Righty
May 24th, 2011
9:19 am
Paul
May 24th, 2011
8:52 am
Mighty Righty
How is “the resturant ownweer will have to pay $2500 dollars per month per employee unless he gets the Pelosi treatment” the same as “allowing undocumented workers to purchase their own health insurance with no subsidies”?
And workmen’s comp applies, if I understand correctly, only to on the job injury. Not other medical costs for the person or family.
But that all avoided the question: Guess who killed the proposal?
It is apparent you don’t understamd that Obamacare passed. It is the law of the land. It was not killed and it was not modified. It does not contain “free health care” for anyone.
Workers Comp. pays a weekly wage for as long as an employee cannot work. It matches the amount one would get under unemployment.
md
May 24th, 2011
9:19 am
OK, so half his employees are illegal……I get that……so why would replacing them with someone legal cause him to close?? Is he not paying them minimum wage??
I’ve got folks all over the place around me looking for work…..ANY work…………
DebbieDoRight
May 24th, 2011
9:20 am
Mighty Righty: Illegal immigration is the 2011 version of slavery. Once here, they have to work for wages that are less than minimum, live sometimes 20 people to an apartment, are taken advantage of at every turn, are scared to death and in general are treated less than humanitarian.
True story — used to work as a social worker, knew this little girl (about 14), who kept running away from home to work the streets for this low life pimp. I used to ask her “Why? If she was looking for something better, (better life), why did she keep going back to this pimp who beat her up etc.?” She told me the life with him was better than the life she had at home. That opened my eyes big time.
These conditions are promoted by liberal Democrats continuing to oppose any program that will lessen or stop illegal immigration.
Well you just got off the boat from crazyville. That’s my cue to say goodbye. Goodbye.
jm
May 24th, 2011
9:20 am
With real unemployment at 25%, there’s no shortage of people available to work for minimum wage, if this guy is paying people minimum wage.
Jay, it sounds like you got fed a bunch of semi-BS. All the facts may be true. But (error of omission) what is left out is a guy that is already breaking the law is just saying he’s going to keep breaking the law simply because he likes to employ illegal immigrants because he can pay them less.
Dave R.
May 24th, 2011
9:22 am
“Police departments across the US want to ban assault weapons, but politicians think they know better. Those same police want to require gun show dealers do the same background check as storefront dealers. Why do conservatives hate our police?”
They don’t They DO hate any organization which tries to CONTROL their actions, even if said actions are not a threat to others. While I respect many police officers, I do not respect many police organizations who try to limit freedoms.
Mary Elizabeth
May 24th, 2011
9:22 am
Two lines in the article stand out to me:
(1) “Some restaurant owners who publicly opposed this bill have received death threats, leading me to want to stay below the radar.”
This reminds me of the death threats received by civil rights workers in the South in the 1960s. Have these death threats have been made by the children, or grandchildren, of those people – progeny of the KKK types, with their prejudicial worldview still lingering in the South? As in the 1960s, control by violence and violent threats would keeping kinder, more rational people from speaking up for a kinder law to accept those illegals into citizenship here, over time.
(2) “I don’t think the politicians know what they’re doing. I just don’t think they’ve thought this through.”
Republican politicians know exactly what they are doing. They are aligning themselves with a national Republican agenda, to which they have, for the most part, forfeited personal conscience in order to remain in good standing with the power base which gives them direction. Perhaps that direction, shortsighted as it is, is to build a stronger, larger middle/working class Republican voting base which is anti-immigrant, and which is based on the fears of those who are different, with a different cultural background.
Again, I wish to refer readers to the following video clip – if they have not seen it – that gives facts to substantiate this point. Overlook, please, the hyperbole dramatically drawn in the Latino commercial and focus, instead, on the facts presented, especially those after the commercial.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/43070587#43070587
There are, IMHO, two worldviews pulling at the heart of the American soul, and it goes beyond the immigration issue. One worldview will supersede the other for the remainder of the 21st century in America. Those different worldviews can be presented as a question. Are we all interconnected, one with the other, or are we totally self-sufficient as individuals? The world will move in the direction of interconnected and egalitarianism. The proof of my assertion is shown through an emerging global economy and global warming, as well as in the spontaneous risings in Middle Eastern countries of that egalitarian spirit and need for individual freedom of expression.
America’s and Georgia’s citizens will choose to move with the future – and also with what is morally right above simply the law (as in the Civil Rights Era) – or they will attempt, futilely, to remain in the past and, thereby fail for themselves and others, both economically and morally.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/21134540/vp/43070587#43070587
jm
May 24th, 2011
9:22 am
Jay 8:54 – if he pays $8-$15 an hour, there are plenty of legal immigrants and citizens available for hire at that price.
AmVet
May 24th, 2011
9:22 am
These conditions are promoted by liberal Democrats continuing to oppose any program that will lessen or stop illegal immigration.
Interesting, but factually flawed.
I recommend you read closely and become conversant on a highly bipartisan measure of recent times, and rethink that specious claim. Especially in light of who gutted it…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comprehensive_Immigration_Reform_Act_of_2007
@@
May 24th, 2011
9:22 am
$15.00 an hour???
Now I’M suffering from a bad case of wealth envy.
schnirt
Jay
May 24th, 2011
9:24 am
jm, he is not currently breaking the law. The law requires him to demand ID of his workers, and he does so. He keeps it on file, as required, and submits the necessary documents to the state and feds. He clearly suspects that a good number of his people are illegal, but he does everything the law requires to ensure they are not. He and other employers are forbidden by law from firing people he merely suspects of being illegal because that kind of discrimination would end up putting a lot of legal Hispanic residents and citizens out of work as well.
John S
May 24th, 2011
9:25 am
As usual the republicans want o have it both ways. Their big business interests love the cheap labor, hence the whining about the law from the agricultural interests. The best way to keep the labor cheap is to pass laws like this to keep the workers subservient and compliant and subject to exploitation.
Dave R.
May 24th, 2011
9:25 am
“Dave R., I’ve filed a ticket on that but haven’t heard back. I will resubmit.”
Thanks, Jay.
Wanna really get your IT dept. knickers in a knot? Publish the e-mail address for their help desk. I’m sure a good many of us will have helpful comments residing in their In-Box within a few short moments . . .
John
May 24th, 2011
9:26 am
This story perfectly illustrates the problem. This guy can’t make ends meet unless he breaks the law. I suggest he go find another career. If he can’t make money hiring legit citizens, he either doesn’t know what he’s doing or he’s in the wrong location. Either way, it’s no excuse.
Dave R.
May 24th, 2011
9:29 am
Outta here for a while.
Later!
jm
May 24th, 2011
9:29 am
““Look, I’m not a criminal. I don’t go around breaking the law, because for one thing I have way too much to lose. I do everything by the book.”
Jay, surely you have to agree this is a lie and you got either hoodwinked or didn’t think this through. The guy admits he already is hiring illegal aliens. Therefore, he’s already breaking the Federal law. This guy may be ignorant of the law (doubtful), but as I’ve been told a 100 times, ignorance is not an excuse.
stands for decibels
May 24th, 2011
9:30 am
It was falsely ID’d as spam, Stands. It has now been posted.
thanks, Jay.
jm
May 24th, 2011
9:30 am
Jay 9:24 – interesting. Well, as you suggested in early postings about this, the guy is going to break the law and not use E-verify (since the penalties are mild). His choice.
Themistocles (a.k.a. Left Wing Mgmt)
May 24th, 2011
9:31 am
Here’s the NPR report on the topic that ran on All Things Considered yesterday.
http://www.npr.org/2011/05/23/136579548/georgia-farmers-brace-for-new-immigration-law
The Dude
May 24th, 2011
9:32 am
This is the fault of the labor unions: prior to the enaction of the minimum wage law (something bought and paid for by union bosses), illegal immigration was almost non-existent and black men had a higher rate of employment. Crime was down in the inner city (anyone recall the difference in Harlem in the 30s and the Harlem of today).
But, in order to secure higher wages for white workers, union bosses paid off politicians, and the minimum wage law went into effect. Another law also came into effect: the law of unintended consequences. By pricing low wage/low skill workers out of the work force, unemployment among black people shot up. Unable to gain the skill and money in order to move up in lifestyle, increasingly black people turned to two sources: crime and the government.
In addition, despite the minimum wage law, the low skill/low pay work STILL needed to be done. Where do business owners turn? Thats right, the undocumented worker. These were people who were willing to stay under the radar and did not have a footprint in America that would lead them and their boss to get in trouble (unlike natural born citizens having SS numbers, ties to the communities, etc.). Plus, the bosses could exert undue influence on these undocumented citizens because they carried with them the ability to turn those workers in surreptitiously.
I am a conservative. I do not blame someone for trying to make a living. We Americans have failed in our duty to provide the structure that would allow someone to come over here legally by not funding the INS (or whatever its called nowadays) and by not standing up to the unions. My grandfather came here legally, worked in the fields with his three sons to eke out a living (along with several other jobs). If the minimum wage law was in effect, he would have undoubtedly been on welfare, unemployable and without any skills or trade. But, by working his behind off, he and his sons slowly worked themselves out of their condition.
If you want to start blaming people, start by examining yourself.
Paul
May 24th, 2011
9:33 am
“Wrong again, Paul. Where did I say I didn’t believe the owner? That’s 2 strikes. Do you want to try for 3? “
Your very first post at 7:59.
[[“He could obey the law, lose a very big chunk of his ktichen staff and be forced out of business”
You mean with 10% unemployment, he couldn’t find ANYBODY to hire? Pahlease….]]
Then at 8:13 you challenged the assertion he treated his workers well with “Maybe he should treat his workers better and he’d be able to hire some of the 10% unemployed.” (note: with that statement you were responding to another poster, but your assertion still goes against how the restaurant owner portrayed himself).
And at 9:05: [[“For the record, he said he pays his kitchen staff between $8 and $15 an hour and abides by all tax and employment laws.”
If that’s the case then I’m sure there are many many unemployed that would be willing to take that job and all his whining is for nothing.]]
Three strikes. You’re out!
DebbieDoRight
May 24th, 2011
9:33 am
PDawg: I don’t pick and choose which countries, Debbie. Nice try though. I’ve stated me position about foreign aide on here many times.
Really? Could you reiterate your position again? I think I missed your previous posts on the subject.
Devil's Advocate
May 24th, 2011
9:34 am
Am I to understand that every out-of-work real estate agent, accountant, database administrator, retail store manager, etc in metro Atlanta will uproot their families and head to south Georgia onion fields for work once the illegals are gone, or maybe devote their careers to working in kitchens?
md
May 24th, 2011
9:35 am
“And when I made that decision (to borrow the money), I didn’t have any idea that they’d be passing a law like this. My bank didn’t have any idea they’d be passing a law like this.”
No sh*t Sherlock…………………..
That is why folks have been making the choice between working for themselves and working for others forever…………it’s called trying to reduce the risk…………
As if those in the building industry knew the collapse was coming prior to asking for their loans……….maybe the guy doesn’t need to be running his own business if he didn’t account for all the variables………which include the worse case side of the equation………
Devil's Advocate
May 24th, 2011
9:35 am
I’ve seen several restaurants with hiring signs…where are all the legal applicants? So what if it’s a fast food joint…
Mark T
May 24th, 2011
9:37 am
Why would he lose his kitchen staff?…all he has to do is replace them with people that are legal. Its not like people dont need jobs
DebbieDoRight
May 24th, 2011
9:37 am
Mary Elizabeth: Republican politicians know exactly what they are doing. They are aligning themselves with a national Republican agenda, to which they have, for the most part, forfeited personal conscience in order to remain in good standing with the power base which gives them direction
Preach!!!
jm
May 24th, 2011
9:37 am
LWM
BTW, farmers will not (all) go out of business (though some may). Farm land itself will be worth much less. The benefits of the use of illegal immigration was accruing to land owners. I also expect further automation will occur over a longer time horizon. And farmers will generally switch to crops that are less labor intensive, though not all land will be suitable for alternative crops, so yes, some will go out of business.
I’m against the heavy hand of government. That said, just like basic protections for food safety and the environment and bank regulation, there has to be intelligent management of our borders for national security purposes as well as for general economic stability.
I’m anything but against immigration. I’m against anarchic immigration. Our immigration policy should be accepting far more foreign nationals, in particular ones with better education credentials.
Ugh. None of this is going to get solved over a blog.
Paul
May 24th, 2011
9:38 am
Dave R. 9:08
“So, are YOU willing to concede that even if the wages are true, that those wages do not automatically translate into similar wages in other industries for illegal workers?”
That, after saying you didn’t make what some would see as a statement without all the facts because you rejected everything the restaurant owner and Jay said?!!? What’s the word – chutzah?
But sure, other industries have lower wage for illegals. Others have higher. Nothing surprising there.
jt
May 24th, 2011
9:38 am
Sometimes………………..I’ll go to my local HomeD$pot to pick up 5 or 6 day laborers.
It is quite amusing to see them pass around a worn social security card.They thrust it into my face without asking.
.
I can’t help but laugh.
.
I explain that I (personally) still live in a country where I don’t give a rat’s but who you are,where you came from, or even your last name.All I want is your labor for eight hours.I NEED permission from NO ONE to hire who I require.
.
I mention Federalie Corrupto, we all smile ………and know the deal.That is what they are escaping.
.
I do volunteer history lessons through out the day and they do too. It is amazing how 90% of these guys agree that UNIONS COLLUDING with FEDERAL GOVERNMENT is what has destroyed their society…………………………….in Mexico……………you have to pay someone for permission to work.
.
This is what is happening here.
.
Because of me……….there are hundreds of legal or illegal aliens in the Athens area who are Ron Paul supporters.
.
The yearning for individual liberty knows no borders. If HALF of what Ron Paul supports ever gets enacted…………..there would be Americans BEGGING Mexicans to come to work.For fantastic wages.Along with mooooooslims, indians, and croates.
Mighy Righty
May 24th, 2011
9:39 am
Jay
May 24th, 2011
9:24 am
jm, he is not currently breaking the law. The law requires him to demand ID of his workers, and he does so. He keeps it on file, as required, and submits the necessary documents to the state and feds. He clearly suspects that a good number of his people are illegal, but he does everything the law requires to ensure they are not. He and other employers are forbidden by law from firing people he merely suspects of being illegal because that kind of discrimination would end up putting a lot of legal Hispanic residents and citizens out of work as well.
Jay, don’t buy any bridges.
godless heathen
May 24th, 2011
9:39 am
“The law requires him to demand ID of his workers, and he does so. He keeps it on file, as required, and submits the necessary documents to the state and feds”
http://www.dhs.gov/e-verify
As he will do under the new law. Does the new law require him to have a documents expert on hand?
I’m missing something here. How will the new law affect the guy?
Jerome
May 24th, 2011
9:39 am
How about a two prong approach. First- a President who doesn’t enable and actually patronize the great workers of Mexico. Mexico has a great workforce and an abundance of natural resources. Stop blaming US drug demand and stop being Western Pakistan.
Second- why don’t employers try hiring disadvantaged, disabled (war veteran) citizens? The employers will be wonderfully surprised!
md
May 24th, 2011
9:40 am
““Look, I’m not a criminal. I don’t go around breaking the law, because for one thing I have way too much to lose. I do everything by the book.”
Which seems to make this whole story moot……………..
Why would replacing one employee with another cause this guy to go belly up????
Come on Jay, please explain…….or is this just fear mongering from your ’side”?
AmVet
May 24th, 2011
9:41 am
“I’ve got folks all over the place around me looking for work…..ANY work…………”
md, perhaps you should introduce them to Peadawg! (grin)
If he can’t make money hiring legit citizens, he either doesn’t know what he’s doing or he’s in the wrong location. Either way, it’s no excuse.
Agreed, Time to close down Tyson Foods, Tilted Kilt Bar & Tavern, American Countertops & Floors, Rite-Aid, China Garden, Lowes, Ruby Tuesday, LDS Church, McDonalds, US Insulation, Hooters, Wal-mart, Burger King, etc.
And say what you will about Carlos Santana’s statement a few days back, but he is dead-on right about one thing. “I would invite all Latin people to do nothing for about two weeks so you can see who really, really is running the economy,” Santana said. “Who cleans the sheets? Who cleans the toilets? Who babysits?
“I am here to give voice to the invisible.”
Jay
May 24th, 2011
9:41 am
So jt, by your own account:
A.) You demand to see the ID of servers at your favorite Mexican restaurant to ensure that you are not being assisted by an illegal immigrant. “Just doing the job that the Federalies won’t do.”
B.) You knowingly hire illegal immigrants to do labor on your behalf.
That’s pretty twisted.
Peadawg
May 24th, 2011
9:42 am
“Really? Could you reiterate your position again? I think I missed your previous posts on the subject.” – You’ve been here for as long as I have, Debbi. I’m not going to go back through Jay’s archives for you.
LOL Paul. Now you’re reaching with those making yourself look dumb. That’d be 3 strikes for YOU, sir. Good day.
Good little liberal
May 24th, 2011
9:42 am
Kids used to get their first jobs as mowing yards, washing dishes in restaurants, etc. Not any more.
If the existence of this guy’s restaurant is dependent on paying slave wages, perhaps he needs to look at his business model.
Democrats again wanting to have an underclass, making less than White people. It’s disgusting.
Wake up dims. Its 2011. Let citizens earn a decent wage. If they are educated and can speak English better then the owner of the restaurant, TAKE THE FRIGGIN TEST AND BECOME A CITIZEN.
Mighy Righty
May 24th, 2011
9:43 am
Mary Elizabeth
May 24th, 2011
9:22 am
Two lines in the article stand out to me:
(1) “Some restaurant owners who publicly opposed this bill have received death threats, leading me to want to stay below the radar.”
Mary, don’t buy any bridges.
CH
May 24th, 2011
9:43 am
Some Yawnplenty news.
Seems he wiped a child molestor’s record clean.
http://groups.google.com/group/talk.politics.misc/browse_thread/thread/1d06d897de22b6d7
stands for decibels
May 24th, 2011
9:44 am
and now some fabulous Steinbeck, to boot!
AmVet, it’s all part of an ongoing program of “dredging up to the light our dark and dangerous dreams for the purpose of improvement.”
oh, and paul, my somewhat-recently-liberated post @ 8.53 was intended for you, FWIW…
Good little liberal
May 24th, 2011
9:44 am
AmVet
So now it’s all about the poor business owner5.
You guys change your stance on business like you change your Depends.
Rightwing Troll
May 24th, 2011
9:45 am
“Jay, I hate to say it but this sounds like a made up story. You say he is in debt Millions of dollars, he must have one hell of a restaurant. If his business is doing that good why doesn’t he pay his debt? He must be a liberal. just keep borrowing and worry about it later.”
Let’s see, a building in a good retail area will run you 800,000.00 to a couple mil if you can find it and buy it. Equipment for a kitchem can easily run a from 50,000.00 to a couple hundred thousand… So we’re over a million just getting a building and some equipment, we haven’t even walked in the front door yet… a buildout, bar, and patio area, another 100 large minimum… Marketing and branding 25,000.00 to 100,000.00…
for the first 3-5 years of most any legal business you most likely won’t break even, so you’re digging into your own pockets or borrowing more…
Yeah this guy’s just a crazy lib… or you just don’t know ANYTHING about starting and running a small business…
blue_unicorn
May 24th, 2011
9:45 am
“But policywise, the key to illegal immigration has always been jobs. Illegal immigrants are drawn to this country to work, and any serious effort to address the problem at its source must include an effort to stop employers from hiring them.” Jay Bookman 2/1/11
http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2011/02/01/ga-leaders-not-serious-about-addressing-illegal-immigration/
Jay – You did explain that to your new friend, right?
St Simons - we're on Island time
May 24th, 2011
9:45 am
Once again, it comes down to the psychological/sociological question “are We all in this together” or is it “every man for himself”. Until this question is decided, until one side wins this “war”, then our American society will be stuck where it is, trying to build bridges to the past, while the 21st century leaves us behind.
On the island, we already know the answer to this question.
Come to Georgia’s beautiful islands & sit awhile.
The Earth & the Ocean are screaming the answer.
Y’all just can’t hear it over the traffic. I know.
I spent my whole career there.
md
May 24th, 2011
9:46 am
“And say what you will about Carlos Santana’s statement a few days back, but he is dead-on right about one thing. “I would invite all Latin people to do nothing for about two weeks so you can see who really, really is running the economy,” Santana said. “Who cleans the sheets? Who cleans the toilets? Who babysits?”
Which is another head scratcher………so, the folks that want to come here legally wouldn’t do the same jobs??
Does having a green card automatically make them ineligible??
DebbieDoRight
May 24th, 2011
9:47 am
jt are you secretly Redneck Convert or Whacks Eloquent in disguise? There was this other guy who used to be on here a lot, Political Uprising or something like that…..his blog name had sexual innuedo in it. Anyway he / she was a hoot too!
Mighy Righty
May 24th, 2011
9:47 am
Common Sense
May 24th, 2011
9:18 am
Great post. Great points. Unfortunately, you are talking to the deaf and dumb.
Paul
May 24th, 2011
9:47 am
Mighty Righty
“t is apparent you don’t understamd that Obamacare passed. It is the law of the land. It was not killed and it was not modified. It does not contain “free health care” for anyone.”
How can I rephrase this so you’ll understand?
The issue was not about health care reform passing.
The issue was about who killed the proposal, as part of the reform package, to allow undocumented workers to buy health insurance with no subsidies
Thanks for the definition of workmen’s comp. I still do not understand why you raised ‘workmen’s comp’ as an answer to who killed the proposal, though.
PEADAWG
That 9:33 was for you.