Israel, Palestine each a victim of its own false dream

The first thing to remember is that, sadly, none of this probably matters anymore.

AP110520013936ds-1

Israel cannot be dissuaded from the course that it has quietly, at times even subconsciously pursued for 40 years. While it talked peace and at times honestly pursued peace, it has also continued to build settlements with the ultimate goal of swallowing all of the West Bank into its borders regardless of the consequences. Although millions of Israelis understand that those consequences might very well include the loss of Israel itself, there is no sign that the Israelis as a people can bring themselves to alter course.

The consensus necessary for peace is also missing among the Palestinians. For decades, they have clung to their own false dream of Israel’s abolition, and to the idea that such a feat could be accomplished through violence. It was blind, romantic foolishness, and they have reaped a bitter harvest for it. Today, after years of confrontation with a far superior military, many Palestinians have finally come to accept how foolish that dream really was. But a sizable Palestinian minority clings to that foolishness still, and a sizable minority is all that is needed to make peace is impossible.

In fact, looking back, the Middle East situation looks more and more like a cosmic case of very bad timing. In the years when Israel might still have been convinced to give up its dream and trade land for peace, the Palestinians were too blinded by their sense of victimhood and thirst for revenge to accept. Now that situation is reversed. With “Eretz Israel” seemingly almost within their grasp, it is Israel that is befuddled by its dreams, and even if the Palestinians were to somehow reach consensus among themselves, I do not believe they would find a willing partner. The moment, if it ever existed, has been lost.

Now, maybe I’m wrong about all that. Maybe years of watching American presidents and Israeli prime ministers and Palestinian leaders pretend to negotiate with no real intention of compromise have fed a misplaced cynicism and fatalism on my part. So let’s look at the situation as if that were the case and that hope of a two-state solution remains alive.

Most of the attention created by Obama’s speech yesterday has focused on his statement that “The borders of Israel and Palestine should be based on the 1967 lines with mutually agreed swaps, so that secure and recognized borders are established for both states.” Mitt Romney immediately claimed that Obama had “thrown Israel under the bus,” while Danny Danon, a leader of Israel’s Likud Party, responded by saying that “Barack Hussein Obama adopted the staged plan for Israel’s destruction of Yasser Arafat.”

The office of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, who visits Washington today, released a statement explaining that on his arrival, Netanyahu “expects to hear a reaffirmation from President Obama of U.S. commitments made to Israel in 2004.”

He expects it.

It’s rather a remarkable thing. Major leaders in Israel, a nation entirely reliant on the United States economically, militarily and diplomatically, feel free to insult the American president and publicly dictate to him what they expect him to say. “Chutzpah” doesn’t begin to describe it. They play a dangerous game.

Obama’s statement regarding the 1967 borders is in fact merely a restatement of longstanding American policy. Again, he proposed the ‘67 boundaries as a starting point, not as a final imposed settlement, “with mutually agreed swaps, so that secure and recognized borders are established for both states.” That is precisely the solution that Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin publicly agreed to in 1993, and that Arafat initially accepted but then rejected. (Two years later, remember, Rabin was assassinated by a Jewish extremist as retribution for agreeing to any surrender of territory. That assassin is still hailed as a hero today by some fringe groups in Israel.)

Obama’s formulation is also a restatement of the principles of UN Resolution 242, drafted and agreed to by a unanimous vote of the Security Council in 1967 and also agreed to by Israel and almost every nation outside the Arab world. That resolution, which called for the return of captured territories to Arab if not Palestinian hands, has remained the foundation of negotiated peace cited by every American administration, Republican or Democrat, since then.

The Israeli government’s effort to focus attention on that particular point can be read only as an attempt to sidetrack the discussion and prevent Obama from pressing a deal on the basis of territory for peace.

The late Yitzhak Rabin, left, shakes hands with Palestinian leader Yassir Arafat in 1993, with a beaming President Clinton looking on. Arafat would soon renege on the 1993 agreement, and two years later Rabin would be assassinated by a Jewish militant for daring to surrender territory to Palestinians.

The late Yitzhak Rabin, left, shakes hands with Palestinian leader Yassir Arafat in 1993, with a beaming President Clinton looking on. Arafat would soon renege on the 1993 agreement, and two years later Rabin would be assassinated by a Jewish militant for daring to surrender territory to Palestinians.

In his speech yesterday, President Obama made it very clear that the violent approach of Hamas is unacceptable. “Palestinian leaders,” he warned, “will not achieve peace or prosperity if Hamas insists on a path of terror and rejection.” In addition, he made it clear that “Palestinians will never realize their independence by denying the right of Israel to exist.” He reiterated that “our commitment to Israel’s security is unshakeable,” and he made it clear to the unhappy Palestinians that the United States will block any effort to create a Palestinian state unilaterally, without Israeli agreement.

However, the most important paragraph in Obama’s statement was not his reiteration of the 1967 boundaries as the starting point of negotiations, but his blunt assessment of the predicament in which Israel now finds itself:

“The fact is, a growing number of Palestinians live west of the Jordan River. Technology will make it harder for Israel to defend itself. A region undergoing profound change will lead to populism in which millions of people – not just a few leaders – must believe peace is possible. The international community is tired of an endless process that never produces an outcome. The dream of a Jewish and democratic state cannot be fulfilled with permanent occupation.”

In those staccato one-sentence bursts, Obama sketched out the existential crisis that confronts Israel and threatens its future:

– A growing number of Palestinians live within the West Bank, so many as to outnumber Israelis should any effort be made to annex that territory. The demographic realities are such that Israel requires a two-state solution if it is to survive as a Jewish, democratic state. It is more important to Israel’s survival than it is the survival of the Palestinians.

– Technology, not just in the form of nuclear weapons but also increasingly long-range missiles and other weapons, make it increasingly difficult for Israel to defend itself regardless of where its borders are drawn. The threat to its existence is no longer tanks or troops that can be halted at a boundary; a border is meaningless against weapons that recognize no borders.

– As Arab dictators topple, Israel’s ability to reach and sustain long-term “understandings” with surrounding countries disappear. Hosni Mubarak is gone; Bashar al-Assad barely clings to power in Syria; the military has ceded control of Turkey’s foreign policy to its democratically elected government. The stability that Israel once could count upon among its neighbors no longer exists, and if democracies do take root, those popularly elected governments will by necessity reflect the popular will in their policies toward Israel. That does not bode well longterm.

– In fact, Israel is becoming more and more isolated not just in the Middle East, but around the globe. Its support in Europe, Turkey and elsewhere is evaporating, and increasingly, the United States is its only friend. In an increasingly connected world where relationships are crucial, that too does not bode well. In addition, as our status as the world’s sole superpower erodes and our power to dictate international outcomes declines, our ability to protect Israel declines as well. Finally, the willingness of the current Israeli leadership to play an active role in American partisan politics is extremely short-sighted and arrogant. If pressed too far, it threatens the longstanding bipartisan consensus on which Israel’s existence depends.

For many Americans, such conclusions may seem harsh, and are often dismissed here as motivated by anti-Israeli or even anti-Semitic sentiment. But the truth is, none of those arguments are new to the Israelis themselves. They are a standard part of Israel’s internal debate, and are expressed daily.

Tzipi Livni

Tzipi Livni

In fact, Tzipi Livni, the head of the Israeli opposition, lauded Obama’s speech, saying “An American president that supports the two-state vision is representing Israeli interests and is not anti-Israel.” She also harshly criticized Netanyahu’s rhetoric.

“Netanyahu spoke about consensus, and if there is a consensus in Israel, it’s the relationship with the U.S. is essential to Israel, and a prime minister that harms the relationship with the U.S. over something unsubstantial is harming Israel’s security and deterrence,” Livni warned.

Aluf Benn, writing in the Israeli newspaper Haaretz, also embraced Obama’s pro-Israeli stance:

“His approach to Israel was empathetic, not only with his reassurance of the U.S. commitment to Israel’s security but also with his attempt “to save Israel from itself.” Obama warned us that if we perpetuated the occupation, we shall crash due to our demographic inferiority, new military technology, and most importantly, due to the anger of the masses who are slowly gaining power in the surrounding countries. In order to retain the vision of a Jewish and democratic state, Israel must end the occupation and withdraw from the West Bank.”

Personally, while I would very much like to see the Palestinians settled into a homeland and freed from humiliation and occupation, my greater concern is and always has been for Israel. However, friendship and support do not mean sitting silently watching while a partner slides toward self-destruction, as Israel is doing in trying to reclaim the biblical lands that some call Judea and Samaria.

Again, millions of Israelis share that same fear. But millions of others do not. Many, in fact, take solace and even encouragement in the belief that that they are the Chosen People and that God has promised Judea and Samaria to them and will protect them. Here at home, many Americans base their own support for Israel’s expansion on that same belief, even if it comes out of a different religious tradition.

Maybe they’re right. However, the belief that fallible humans can accurately interpret and rely upon God’s will has been the foundation of many a large tragedy. Even if you accept the biblical perspective as reality, that same Bible reminds us of repeated instances in which that same G-d has turned an angry face toward an Israel that He considered unjust and undeserving, condemning the nation to destruction and its people to exile. Even faith offers no guarantees against bad decisions and foolish dreams.

– Jay Bookman

377 comments Add your comment

Themistocles (a.k.a. Left Wing Mgmt)

May 20th, 2011
11:01 am

Although millions of Israelis understand that those consequences might very well include the loss of Israel itself, there is no sign that the Israelis as a people can bring themselves to alter course.

In other words, it’s a virtually perfect metaphor for the crisis of human civilization itself right now. And in this sense, maybe Israel is our perfect ally, since they perfectly reproduce our utter political and ideological paralysis.

jm

May 20th, 2011
11:03 am

A. Nothing is going to happen so discussion is pointless.

B. “Technology will make it harder for Israel to defend itself.” I disagree. Technology cuts both ways, and the Israelis are ahead of their enemies.

Keep Up the Good Fight!

May 20th, 2011
11:04 am

There are no easy answers but that is true of almost everything to do with matters of the world, still, I am sure the “blog experts” will post any number of easy answers and solutions if only Obama {and their many childish names for the President), the Dems or the “Libs” will “learn” or something.

Doggone/GA

May 20th, 2011
11:08 am

“I disagree. Technology cuts both ways, and the Israelis are ahead of their enemies”

Maybe, but Israel targets are FAR larger and FAR more numerous than the targets for their enemies.

Don't Tread

May 20th, 2011
11:08 am

“the United States is its only friend” Apparently not any more. We seem to have a track record of alienating “friends” these days.

The fact is that Israel is surrounded by countries that want to destroy it and don’t believe it has the right to exist. This will not end until one side or the other is exterminated. (i.e. it will not end well – and the end is coming)

jm

May 20th, 2011
11:09 am

There’s probably going to be another war (large scale) over this at some point in the next few years, and that will hopefully finish things off permanently, though it will be very sad.

ragnar danneskjold

May 20th, 2011
11:11 am

Pretty good essay, my compliments.

cosby smith

May 20th, 2011
11:13 am

A Slippery slope…this goes back to Cain and Able. the one factor, Israel at least protrays to be a friend of the USA, Palestine / Arafat make no contention of not being favorable to the USA. That being said, if Barry Soretoro AKA Obama needs to tread softly. Carter thought he knew it all in this historical battle but we saw what happend to his ideas. no solution, in fact, no real solution in the Middle East and the US needs to take small steps and keep the fight contained.

jm

May 20th, 2011
11:14 am

Obama should be waking up in the morning, and spending 75% of his waking hours thinking about 1 thing: how do I grow the economy and how do I help the private sector create jobs.

Everything else is a distraction (in particular this cr-p). Instead, he’s dealing with this, 2 wars, and shutting down 9,000 Boeing jobs in South Carolina. Retarded.

Peadawg (the REAL one)

May 20th, 2011
11:15 am

Aw shucks, thanks 11:15. Looks like I got myself a leghumper. I’m flattered!!!

Guy Incognito

May 20th, 2011
11:15 am

“Even if you accept the biblical perspective as reality, that same Bible reminds us of repeated instances in which that same G-d has turned an angry face toward an Israel that He considered unjust and undeserving, condemning the nation to destruction and its people to exile. Even faith offers no guarantees against bad decisions and foolish dreams.”

Jay,
God did these things because He loved the Children of Israel. We would call it, “Tough Love.” When they strayed into sin, The Lord allowed them to fall into various difficulties in order to bring them back to true belief

Finn McCool

May 20th, 2011
11:16 am

dang we coulda beat that illegal immigrant horse all day.

“Ise gots Canadians in my garden! Betty, call Nathan!”

jm

May 20th, 2011
11:16 am

SoCo 11:17 – he’s got a pretty decent one. Maybe I can just be in charge of his calendar :)

Me: Ooops, sorry Mr. President. All those foreign leader meetings and campaign speeches got canceled today. You now have an extra 4 hours to talk to CEO’s about how to create jobs and make the government more efficient and effective.

Southern Comfort

May 20th, 2011
11:17 am

jm

Maybe you need to apply to be his Chief of Staff to keep him on track….

Finn McCool

May 20th, 2011
11:17 am

Peadawg, pass that doobie!

Guy Incognito

May 20th, 2011
11:17 am

Pea…

Flattery is the sincerest form of admiration

Mary Elizabeth

May 20th, 2011
11:18 am

Themistocles -

Just a note to let you know that I am presently responding to your thoughts directed toward me, last evening, regarding Obama’s position on the healthcare law. My response to you will be posted toward the end of the Cornel West thread. Thanks for your reflective thoughts.

Don't Forget

May 20th, 2011
11:19 am

Peadawg, just cant find the middle huh? lol

Peadawg (the REAL one)

May 20th, 2011
11:19 am

Jay,

Can you delete the imposter’s post @ 11:15 for me? Gracias!

Finn McCool

May 20th, 2011
11:20 am

No, Peadawg, I have a photo of that post. Your name is on it.

Fohevah

Doggone/GA

May 20th, 2011
11:20 am

“This will not end until one side or the other is exterminated”

Fortunately, that is NOT the only choice available.

Don't Forget

May 20th, 2011
11:20 am

And a reminder: Impersonating another poster is grounds for permanent banning.

I wish the other blogs would do that

andygrdzki

May 20th, 2011
11:21 am

There will never be peace until such time as one group respects the other right to live safely and without fear… In 1967, when the Armies of Jordan, Egypt, and Syria outnumber the Israel’s 3 to 1, and Israel won, they put in protection zones….. If they give up the protection zones, they lose a buffer zone cutting the reaction time down…. How do they keep their people safe?
The Israelis saw the armies massing and reacted with the first strike….. self preservation….. I don’t have an answer…… It is sad that people of both sides have been brained washed into believing death to the other side is the only answer……

Themistocles (a.k.a. Left Wing Mgmt)

May 20th, 2011
11:21 am

jm: “B. “Technology will make it harder for Israel to defend itself.” I disagree. Technology cuts both ways, and the Israelis are ahead of their enemies.”

You seem doggedly insistent on seeing this as a question of “victory” or “defeat”. The predicament Israel is in is one that ultimately has no solution on a technological basis alone. So why do you refuse to acknowledge the dilemma that that country is in?

Jay

May 20th, 2011
11:21 am

I thought that was you being sarcastic, Peadawg. Request granted.

And a reminder: Impersonating another poster is grounds for permanent banning.

Guy Incognito

May 20th, 2011
11:21 am

Oops, that should’ve been, “imitation is the sincerest form of flattery”

jm

May 20th, 2011
11:21 am

“The Rapture is Not Saturday — It’s Tonight”

Oh hell. Will they make up their mind?

Jefferson

May 20th, 2011
11:21 am

A fair deal is where either side of the deal is acceptable, let Isreal define the terms, let Palestine pick which side they will take. Or just cut the baby in half.

Finn McCool

May 20th, 2011
11:22 am

Let’s jsut sell both sides weapons and let em go at it..

Oh, we already tried that?

PeaDiggidyDawg

May 20th, 2011
11:22 am

President Obama is a genius and his speech yesterday was absolutely brilliant. Remember, folks, that you read the following here, first: President Obama will, once again, achieve what generations before him have failed to do – namely, peace in the Middle East. President Obama is going to be remembered as the greatest President our Republic has ever had. And…I can’t wait for November 2012 – President Obama will be reelected in a Reaganesque landslide, and the Democrats will reclaim control (and convincingly so) of both houses.

jm

May 20th, 2011
11:23 am

“I thought that was you being sarcastic, Peadawg.”

Likewise.

jm

May 20th, 2011
11:24 am

The end of the world is going to interrupt a nice dinner I’m going to have with my mother. What a mess.

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2011/05/the-rapture-is-not-saturday-its-tonight/239177/

jm

May 20th, 2011
11:25 am

LWM 11:21 – my best estimate is that it won’t be solved until another war erupts and the Palestinians are either all pushed into Jordan, or Israel is wiped out….

Conflict is, unfortunately, the natural state of the world….

Southern Comfort

May 20th, 2011
11:26 am

jm

Get out of my head bro. Posting a 11:16 response to my 11:17 post. :)

Palestinians need to understand, just as Israelis, permanent war solves nothing. Instead of fighting nonstop, time is much better spent enjoying things other than shooting guns and rockets. They are in prime real estate area to further research into areas like solar energy and such. Instead of fighting, they could be researching and prepping to make a killing on the return on their research.

Dave R.

May 20th, 2011
11:26 am

Being a country that has become so screwed up as to now having the ability to destroy the entire economy of a planet if we don’t address our own deficiencies, engaged in two (going on three) wars with countries that do not affect our national interest and security, and degenerated into a society that values more what we can get from others than what we can do for ourselves, we are the LAST country to be suggesting, telling, coercing or forcing a solution on another sovereign nation.

And the least qualified person to ever occupy the Oval Office is not the person to make those suggestions.

Peadawg

May 20th, 2011
11:27 am

Thanks Jay…I’m glad everyone here thinks I’m THAT big of a smartass. :)

I don’t know much about this topic so I’ll wait for another blog. Peace! (pun intended)

jm

May 20th, 2011
11:27 am

SoCo 11:26 – the Israelis are busy doing that. If only the Palestinians had the same mind set….

Dave R.

May 20th, 2011
11:27 am

“Get out of my head bro. Posting a 11:16 response to my 11:17 post.”

I’ve already got a response ready for your 12:10 post, Brosephus!

Doggone/GA

May 20th, 2011
11:28 am

“Palestinians need to understand, just as Israelis, permanent war solves nothing”

Maybe we need to blanket them with fliers: “Living well is the best revenge”

Finn McCool

May 20th, 2011
11:29 am

I think I will spend my last day in one of those bath tubs on th side of a hill – like in the Cialis commercials.

If I buy two tubs does that lady come with one of them?

larry

May 20th, 2011
11:34 am

It’s rather a remarkable thing. Major leaders in Israel, a nation entirely reliant on the United States economically, militarily and diplomatically, feel free to insult the American president and publicly dictate to him what they expect him to say. “Chutzpah” doesn’t begin to describe it. They play a dangerous game.

Yes, they do have a lot of nerve. Especially now that we are looking at these foreign countries and the money we send them. Pakistan lets OBL sleep inside their borders and now Isreal insults the President.
Lets see what they say when we yank that support out from under them.

Finn McCool

May 20th, 2011
11:34 am

I think we need to tell both countries they have to move over to make way for the Atheist homeland. Right smack dab in the middle of both of them. And we will fight anyone who claims a heavenly being is on their side.

It’ll be called McCoolistan.

Don't Forget

May 20th, 2011
11:35 am

Southern Comfort

May 20th, 2011
11:36 am

I’ve already got a response ready for your 12:10 post, Brosephus!

:shock:

How did you know I was gonna change ID’s??? ;)

Doggone

Either that, of have a big, family reunion type cookout complete with the electric slide dance.

stands for decibels

May 20th, 2011
11:36 am

Nice piece, if (suitably) depressing. Thanks, Jay.

For many Americans, such conclusions may seem harsh, and are often dismissed here as motivated by anti-Israeli or even anti-Semitic sentiment. But the truth is, none of those arguments are new to the Israelis themselves. They are a standard part of Israel’s internal debate, and are expressed daily.

And now to read the comments, some of which are almost certain to be posted by people who remain utterly unaware of what those three sentences mean.

JKL2

May 20th, 2011
11:36 am

Any Jew who votes for obama in the next election should be shunned after the disgraceful way obama has treated Israel since taking office.

Mr Right

May 20th, 2011
11:37 am

Wow, there is nothing like inviting a friend to dinner and then letting him know before he comes that you are going to kick his butt when he gets there! Some friend huh?

Jefferson

May 20th, 2011
11:37 am

If McCain had won we would have boot on the ground in Libya, no doubt.

JP

May 20th, 2011
11:42 am

Can’t we just have an individual peace mandate ad get on with it?

jt

May 20th, 2011
11:42 am

The people of Israel have a friend in the American people.
.
Ditto the Palistinians.
.
Your friends are NOT the despicle people who reside in the District of Crooks…………..the policiticians, war-mongers, and the merchants of death that dwell in Washington and Tel Aviv.
.
The sooner that all three parties realize this………………….the better that the world will be.
.
Ron Paul has the answer.

Haywood Jablome

May 20th, 2011
11:44 am

Are Manhattan, Hollywood and the media not enough of the hegemonic colonization?

How about a little sharing?

Moving target

May 20th, 2011
11:44 am

Really, JKL2? A tad dramatic, don’t you think?

Running Man

May 20th, 2011
11:44 am

I think the O’Bama deal is a little harder on the Israeli’s than the opinionated opinion-makers have rightfully stated. The Oslo Accords, find them easily on Wiki, found an end of the terrorism in a way that both PLA and the Israeli Government would see, legally, the West Bank and Gaza as a single territorial unit. Now, O’Bama his built a media campaign through press releases and open statements garnishing support, and overlooked the 1994 Oslo Agreement, that is not a pre-1967 territory exchange, which, noted on this page, is kind of VERY DIFFICULT to imagine.

Soothsayer

May 20th, 2011
11:44 am

“Personally, while I would very much like to see the Palestinians settled into a homeland and freed from humiliation and occupation . . .”

How about the homeland they had before it was stolen from them?

stands for decibels

May 20th, 2011
11:46 am

Any Jew who votes for obama in the next election should be shunned after the disgraceful way obama has treated Israel since taking office.

you get right to work on that. Let us know how it works out.

1811/1801 - 0311/0317

May 20th, 2011
11:47 am

JAY:

You never told me when we are going to give back the Kingdom of Hawaii that we took by force !

sarasotawill

May 20th, 2011
11:47 am

I do believe that Peadawg has been imbibing the Southern Comfort 100 proof again. Barry Soretoro (Obama) our greatest president ??? He’s kidding of course. If Obama is the “great unifier ” I’d hate to see what a disrupter looks like. If Obama is re-elected I predict there will be wars both great and small for the next 100 years. It will take the second coming to straighten out all of the damage he has done to our country and to the world, but what can one expect from a lying liberal. -(oops but I’m being redundant)

Moving target

May 20th, 2011
11:48 am

Spread the fear, sarasotawill. Perhaps you should head to the daquiri deck and chill…

Jay

May 20th, 2011
11:49 am

Peadiggity, name-calling and personal attacks are prohibited as well.

Two strikes on you. Next one is the last one.

Southern Comfort

May 20th, 2011
11:50 am

I do believe that Peadawg has been imbibing the Southern Comfort 100 proof again.

As awesome as I am, I can not alter someone’s mentality THAT much. Thanks for the compliment though.

stands for decibels

May 20th, 2011
11:50 am

Scout @ 11.47–As Jay (and I, and undoubtedly others, here) has already pointed out: When Israel extends citizenship/voting rights to all residents of the occupied territories, then you’ll have a somewhat analogous situation to ours. Until then, you don’t.

Soothsayer

May 20th, 2011
11:54 am

Hi, we’re the Israelites. We just came from Eqypt and just got out of there by the skin of our teeth.

Now, this is going to be a little hard for you to understand, but we have this book, which we wrote, that gives us all of this land that you now own. See, right there it is in black and white. “I give you this land, oh Israelites.”

So, what you’re going to have to do is pack up and move somewhere else. And, if you don’t, well there’s gonna be a big war and we’re just going to have to run you off.

See how simple all of this is?

Southern Comfort

May 20th, 2011
11:55 am

Peadiggity, name-calling and personal attacks are prohibited as well.

Two strikes on you. Next one is the last one.

That sounds like a yellow card to me.

JP

May 20th, 2011
11:55 am

I don’t know how other peace negotiations have worked before, but hasn’t Israel usually been willing to conceed more than the Palestinians? Correct me if I am wrong. I think leaders on both sides are going to have to make some gigantic steps for there to be a lasting peace. They might not be willing to do that.

RB from Gwinnett

May 20th, 2011
11:56 am

From below….

How about this. An employer caught hiring an illegal must pay for their 1 way ticket back to their home country as their fine. Both problems solved immediately.

Funny how you liberals want to fine the employer, but you don’t want to deport the illegal. That should tell you there is a problem with YOU.

I’d be fine charging the employer as long as the employee is sent packing within 5 days.

JKL2

May 20th, 2011
11:56 am

Moving target- A tad dramatic, don’t you think?

Ummm, no.

Get It Right

May 20th, 2011
11:57 am

Two points. 1 – Israel gained control of the West Bank and the Gaza Strip when attacked by the combined amies of several Arab nations acting on behalf of the Palestinians. Territories lost/gained in this fashion should be retained by the victor. 2 – Israel attempted to return the territory to the Palestinians. Arafat responded with more rocket and terrorist attacks against Israeli citizens.

The negotiations need to start with the post-1967 borders, recognition of Israel’s right to exist and a renouncement of terror activities by the Palestinians. Israel has proven their commitment to a peaceful resolution. The Palestinians and Arabs have not.

jt

May 20th, 2011
11:58 am

Bypass the Federal war-mongering merchants of death and destruction ……………………………
let the Sovereign state of Georgia trade………………..
soybeans for olive oil with Palestine………………………….in turn……………..soybean products to Israel for whatever………………….make lots of money……………………………….
.
It REALLY IS that simple.
.
Of course ……………..if there was peace in this region………..the merchant scum of death would take a hit(Boeing,GE,L3,etc……………………..).
But……..so be it…..and good riddance.
.
The Decent people of this region….
(not government workers,politicians, or arms dealers……………………..
yearn for this……………………….and will have it.
.
The truth will out.

Fix-It

May 20th, 2011
11:59 am

First of all when you look at a pre-Israel map you would notice that the majority of the area called Palestine occupied much of the land that Syria, Lebanon and Egypt now claim as their own. How come they don’t demand return of that land? Better yet has there EVER been a country that conquered land in war, and people from other countries tell them to give it back, if this is OK then, me being an American Indian, I want my land back!!!!!

Southern Comfort

May 20th, 2011
11:59 am

RB

Would you require the employer to pay for the entire cost of deportation? It’s not as simple as buying a one-way ticket and sending them on their way. There’s the whole deportation hearings where the charges are levied and fines imposed. You have the housing and feeding costs for the duration of the hearing process as well. If that’s part of your suggestion, I say go for it!! It will save the taxpayers from having to pay for the expense of removing the problem the employers are causing.

Bob

May 20th, 2011
11:59 am

I have to agree with Jay, nothing is going to change.

I also bet a lot of people regret us giving Israel Nukes, who made that deadly decision???

JohnnyReb

May 20th, 2011
12:00 pm

“as our (the USA) status as the world’s sole superpower erodes and our power to dictate international outcomes declines, our ability to protect Israel declines as well.”

Well Jay, I see you have bought into Obama’s view of America hook, line, and sinker. How disappointing but not surprising.

Hopefully, Israel can hang on until the Obama regime is voted out and the course of America is put back on track.

We/the USA are exceptional. We are by God’s grace intended to lead the world. Not aplogozie to it.

Don't Forget

May 20th, 2011
12:00 pm

RB – Funny how you liberals want to fine the employer, but you don’t want to deport the illegal.

Deportations are way up under Obama, what are you talking about?

AmVet

May 20th, 2011
12:00 pm

Any Jew who votes for obama in the next election should be shunned after the disgraceful way obama has treated Israel since taking office.

Shunned??? Disgraceful???

Puerile nonsense of the most absurd kind.

Get used to more disappointment, JKL2. As has been the case for the past 80 years, American Jews will vote OVERWHELMINGLY against you Republicans in 2012. And take a hint. It is because they DO NOT trust you. In spite of the oft parroted nonsense about being “friends of Israel”.

Because if you are pro-Israel, you are pro-Palestinian. And vice-versa.

The vast majorities of American Jews and American Muslims want peace in the “Holy Land” and believe in a two-state solution. And your ignorance does not countermand the fact that their is a broad and deep peace movement in Israel and in the occupied territories and elsewhere.

Once again, BHO is simply continuing a Bush policy that the Palestinians should have their own state.

Wake up…

stands for decibels

May 20th, 2011
12:01 pm

Territories lost/gained in this fashion should be retained by the victor

Again with this?

Ok, again I ask–what of the inhabitants? Do they get citizenship and voting rights, or are they ethnically cleansed, or…?

Dave R.

May 20th, 2011
12:03 pm

Let’s see if some people can get their arms around this:

The WORLD stood by and allowed, oh, about 6 million Jews to be exterminated by the Nazis.

I think the Jews were owed their homeland. Then, and now.

SaveOurRepublic

May 20th, 2011
12:04 pm

The hope of peace in the Middle East is a pipe dream. Be that as it may, we (the U.S.A) need to see ourselves out of the (entire) middle east & let the Zionists & Muhamedans fight it out amongst themselves. This “policing” the global is NOT what the Founding Fathers intended. Most of the GOP NeoCONs embrace this Globalist “empire building”. IMO, only Dr.Ron Paul (a true Constitutionalist) is worth a vote (on the GOP ticket).

Dave R.

May 20th, 2011
12:07 pm

“Ok, again I ask–what of the inhabitants? Do they get citizenship and voting rights, or are they ethnically cleansed, or…?”

If they swear undying allegiance to Israel – welcome! If not – bye-bye!

The low down

May 20th, 2011
12:07 pm

Ok, Theology 101. This is Israel’s land. God gave it to them. End of story. Laugh at me all you want be it’s the truth. There will be turmoil until Christ returns. Now let’s move on please and get back to work.

RB from Gwinnett

May 20th, 2011
12:07 pm

“Would you require the employer to pay for the entire cost of deportation? It’s not as simple as buying a one-way ticket and sending them on their way. There’s the whole deportation hearings where the charges are levied and fines imposed. You have the housing and feeding costs for the duration of the hearing process as well. If that’s part of your suggestion, I say go for it!! It will save the taxpayers from having to pay for the expense of removing the problem the employers are causing.”

It’s only expensive because morons like you put up every possible excuse and reason why a person who has no documentation for being here should remain here. It’s really VERY simple. Don’t have the documentation, go directly to the airport where your employer will have a 1 way ticket waiting.

It’s not the employers responsibility to prove the person is here legally, IT’S THE PERSON WHO IS HERE.

In the mind of a liberal is any friggin’ body EVER responsible for their own actions? Gesz you people are amazing.

JKL2

May 20th, 2011
12:10 pm

Don’t Forget- Deportations are way up under Obama, what are you talking about?

So with the ever increasing stream of the thousands of illegals coming across the border, obama has sent a few more home than Bush did. I feel safer already…

Finn McCool

May 20th, 2011
12:10 pm

The WORLD stood by and allowed, oh, about 6 million Jews to be exterminated by the Nazis.

Tell our relatives who died in Asia, Europe and Africa in WW2 that they were just “standing” by.

Doggone/GA

May 20th, 2011
12:10 pm

“yet has there EVER been a country that conquered land in war, and people from other countries tell them to give it back, if this is OK then, me being an American Indian, I want my land back!!!!!”

So…we still own Japan then?

Dusty

May 20th, 2011
12:10 pm

Ah well, just another of Bookman’s long views that “it aint gonna work out for poor Palistinians and mean ol’ Israelis even with Obama decidin’”. All that with a tear in his eye.

Bookman should have stopped after the first sentence.

Soothsayer

May 20th, 2011
12:12 pm

“This is Israel’s land. God gave it to them.”

Now which god would that be?

Themistocles (a.k.a. Left Wing Mgmt)

May 20th, 2011
12:13 pm

Fix-It: “yet has there EVER been a country that conquered land in war, and people from other countries tell them to give it back, if this is OK then, me being an American Indian, I want my land back”

So are you saying Germany should by rights still have jurisdiction over places like Poland, the Netherlands, much of France, Austria, Norway, etc. because these territories were “conquered” by the Germans during the Nazi period?

Soothsayer

May 20th, 2011
12:13 pm

“This is Israel’s land. God gave it to them.”

And which god might that be?

Finn McCool

May 20th, 2011
12:13 pm

I think the Jews were owed their homeland

Who owed it to them? The Axis powers? They weren’t in any shape to owe anybody anything. Do we Americans owe them? Why do we owe them? Seems we lost a lot of people trying to not let that number climb over 6 million.

That’s not enough? Here, they can have my sammich.

Soothsayer

May 20th, 2011
12:14 pm

Sorry for the double post the server is acting strange today

Finn McCool

May 20th, 2011
12:15 pm

a has sent a few more home than Bush did.

And this President is going after the businesses who hire them. Something the Texan with a big hat and no cattle wouldn’t do.

USMC

May 20th, 2011
12:15 pm

“And there’s a reason Biden’s own White House ambitions died early, JKL. He said stupid things, and they got covered.”–Jay Bookman

Talking about saying stupid things:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dMo0WlSvrIY&NR=1

Hillbilly Deluxe

May 20th, 2011
12:16 pm

If the situation in the Middle East is ever solved, which is a big if, it will only come when both sides get tired of the killing and the dying and decide something else is better. Nobody can do it for them.

drive by

GT

May 20th, 2011
12:17 pm

Jewish minds work 24/7 at whatever goal they right or wrongly focus on. They play politics and life like it was the gameboard of Monopoly. They are willing to act and have no compromise of their will since their religion and their politics are the same. They are a huge part of the problem in America where they only cause compromise since the operate here and in the rest of the world as a minority. Rights mean far more to them in their minority position than it does for them in Israel.

St Simons - we're on Island time

May 20th, 2011
12:17 pm

jm “The Rapture is Not Saturday — It’s Tonight”

they didn’t want to bum out everybody’s weekend.

Themistocles (a.k.a. Left Wing Mgmt)

May 20th, 2011
12:17 pm

JohnnyReb: “We/the USA are exceptional. We are by God’s grace intended to lead the world. Not aplogozie to it.”

Hm. Interesting view.

So, under which model do we “lead”? Do we “rule” in the tradition of the empires of the past, Rome, Britain? Or do we “lead” by way of example, living up to the principles we represent and encouraging others to follow? Or do we “lead” from the other side of a bayonet / rifle ?

Just what is “leadership” in your view, JohnnyReb?

USMC

May 20th, 2011
12:18 pm

“President Obama will be reelected in a Reaganesque landslide, and the Democrats will reclaim control (and convincingly so) of both houses.”–Peadiggitydawg

Explanation for the statement above/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3FtNm9CgA6U

Reagan’s (49) states to Mondale’s (1) his home state…???????????????

I’ll take those those odds 8 days a week; put your money where you mouth is :-)

getalife

May 20th, 2011
12:18 pm

He will fail on this one.

Not sure if they will ever be peace there.

RB from Gwinnett

May 20th, 2011
12:18 pm

From Politifact… “It’s not clear that Obama policies deserve credit (or blame, depending on your perspective) for any increase in deportations, as Ramos implies. Michelle Mittelstadt, a spokesman for the Migration Policy Institute, said that “deportation numbers have been on a steadily upward trajectory” since 2002, due to a number of policy changes initially undertaken during the Bush administration. Indeed, between 2002 and 2008, deportations rose by 117 percent. ”

http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2010/jul/06/jorge-ramos/obama-deported-more-people-his-first-year-bush-did/

So Bush created the policies that increased deportation yearly from 2002 and ya’ll are giving Obama credit for it. Nice…..

Soothsayer

May 20th, 2011
12:19 pm

One of the things the Palestinians want more than anything else is “right of return.” Which means that they could return to their former villages and homes. If the Israelis would grant the Palestinians right of return and integration in society in shared government, there would be peace in Palestine tomorrow.

As things are now, the Palestinians are herded into a tiny strip of land in the very southwest border of Israel and Eqypt is squalid slum conditions. The Israelis can never expect peace as long as this continues.

Dave R.

May 20th, 2011
12:20 pm

“Tell our relatives who died in Asia, Europe and Africa in WW2 that they were just “standing” by.”

Since history isn’t your strong suit, Finn, I’ll remind you that exterminations began (and we knew about them) far in advance of our entering the war.

Oh, and as a result of the JAPANESE attack on Pearl Harbor. NOT because of the extermination of people simply because of their faith.

So, yeah, the WORLD STOOD BY.

Never again, Finn.