Why voucher advocates are allergic to standardized tests
In Pennsylvania, Republican legislators are pushing through a school vouchers bill that would divert increasingly scarce state education dollars to private and parochial schools. The move itself is controversial, but at the moment I’d like to focus on one particular aspect of the debate, as reported by the Hazleton Standard Speaker:
“The panel defeated an amendment by Sen. John Blake, D-22, Archbald, to have choice students who attend a private or parochial school take the Pennsylvania State Standardized Assessment given periodically in public schools. That way there would be an equitable standard to measure academic performance, he added.”
Now why would school-choice advocates reject a proposal to have voucher recipients take the same test as their public-school peers? That seems peculiar. If a private school accepts money from the state, it ought to at least be willing to demonstrate that taxpayers are getting value out of that investment, right? If you want to be good stewards of public money, you need some means of measuring performance.
In addition, since the whole idea behind school choice is, well, choice, it would seem essential to give students in public and private schools the same test, so that parents can try to compare outcomes.
Up in Wisconsin — where public-school students regularly rank among the highest in the nation on the SAT and ACT, Gov. Scott Walker is also proposing to broaden an existing voucher program, as the AP reports:
“Walker is proposing expanding the voucher program that currently is only available to low-income students in Milwaukee. He wants to expand the program to all of Milwaukee County and phase out the low-income qualifying ceiling.
He also wants to do away with a requirement that voucher students take the same statewide achievement tests as students in public schools.”
Hmmm. There it is again: Walker wants to abolish a requirement that schools accepting taxpayer vouchers agree to test its students just as public schools do. And these are not isolated incidents. Voucher advocates often oppose any requirement to subject voucher recipients to standardized testing.
The Milwaukee voucher program, for example, has been in existence since 1990, but the testing requirement was added only in 2006, and even then over the protest of Republican legislators. And now that they and Walker have regained power, they want that provision gone. The question is why.
The editorial board of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel solves the mystery:
“Last week, scores released by the state Department of Public Instruction showed that students in Milwaukee’s school choice program performed worse than or about the same as students in Milwaukee Public Schools in math and reading.
A day later, researchers at the University of Arkansas who have been tracking MPS and voucher students since 2005-’06 found that the two are performing roughly the same.”
Oh …. now it makes sense. They don’t want to mandate testing because that testing has demonstrated that students using vouchers are performing no better and perhaps worse than their public-school counterparts.
Again, the data go back only to 2005-2006 because until then, proponents of vouchers in Wisconsin had succeeded in blocking testing of students who used the program. That changed only after a major scandal erupted involving largely unregulated private schools.
As the Christian Science Monitor reported at the time:
“In one of the worst instances, a convicted rapist opened a school, which has since shut down. Reporters from the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel tried to visit all 115 schools then in the program last year, and found a mixed bag. Nine schools refused to let reporters in, and the paper cited “10 to 15 others where … the overall operation appeared alarming when it came to the basic matter of educating children.”
One school was opened by a woman who said she had a vision from God to start a school, and whose only educational background was as a teacher’s aide. Others had few books or signs of a coherent curriculum. Yet they’ve been able to enroll students.”
And here’s an AP report on Milwaukee voucher schools from that same time frame:
“The schools are required to report virtually nothing about their methods to the state, or to track their students’ performance. Proponents say that frees the schools from onerous bureaucracy. But some say the lack of oversight makes them a prime target for abuse.
At the Mandella Academy for Science and Math, school officials admitted signing up more than 200 students who never showed and then cashing $330,000 in state-issued tuition checks, which the principal used to buy, among other things, Mercedes-Benzes for himself and the assistant principal.
Meanwhile, Alex’s Academics of Excellence received $2.8 million in voucher money over three years before the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported that the school’s founder, James A. Mitchell, served nearly a decade in prison for a 1971 rape. Unlike their counterparts at public schools, principals and teachers at private schools do not have to undergo criminal background checks.”
Theoretically, the marvels of the free market were supposed to run places such as “Alex’s Academics of Excellence” out of business. Instead, government was forced to intervene, because what happens in theory and what happens in reality are often two different things. But in Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, loyalty to theory is once again carrying the day.
– Jay Bookman
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470 comments Add your comment
Jackie
April 28th, 2011
12:42 pm
@Lil Barry
Can you honestly say that your educational achievement is anywhere near that of President Obama?
Didn’t think so!
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
12:43 pm
USMC – 12:40 –
now, that’s funny
jm
April 28th, 2011
12:44 pm
USMC 12:04- likewise, I think Reed is doing a stand up job. (I did vote for him however)
Left wing management
April 28th, 2011
12:45 pm
AmVet: “Which explains why dead red states all dominate the very top of any educational ranking list in this country.”
Was thinking that too. The top state in the nation in terms of school performance is, I believe, Massachusetts, about a deep blue as it gets.
In other words, Lil’ Bar got nothin.
carlosgvv
April 28th, 2011
12:45 pm
Peadawg
If the existence of God cannot be proved at all, why do you believe in Him? Since God’s existence cannot be proved or disproved, wouldn’t it make more sense just to put the matter aside and wait until some solid evidence comes in?
jm
April 28th, 2011
12:51 pm
I can’t believe they’re finally going to legalize sunday alcohol sales. And I’m probably about to move…. Government would work better if it had any sense of urgency (in particular on the issues that are more pressing than alcohol sales).
Joe Mama
April 28th, 2011
12:51 pm
Mick — “Gee, I thought you guys were all about personal responsiblity? The biggest obstacle to failing schools are disintersted parents and their children who are way too enamored of our entertainment culture. The education is out there, it is up to the students to access it and take responsiblity for their performance…”
You clearly don’t understand. Voucher advocates want to OUTSOURCE responsibility for their children’s education and they want to get paid for it. What they don’t recognize is that if they aren’t happy with the quality of the education their kids receive, there’ll be no one but themselves to blame for it.
You can’t get a refund for a crappy private school education like you can on the busted Cuisinart blender that Macy’s sold you.
jm
April 28th, 2011
12:52 pm
BEST proposal I’ve heard in years: If Congress doesn’t pass a budget with a deficit of less than 3% of GDP, members of Congress are barred from running for re-election. (a term limit of sorts)
DebbieDoRight
April 28th, 2011
12:54 pm
Jefferson: The same neocons that want a free ride to private schools would hide their parent’s assets to get them into a nursing home paid by medicare.
Can I get an AMEN?!?
Mary E.: There has been a systematic, political effort, for 30 years, by extreme Rightwing ideologues not only to dismantle public schools, but to dismantle – in an out of proportion way – the public arena, overall, for the private market
I’m thinking this is because they want the people from the public schools to become military fodder for their big ole military machine. Bad education? No problem – join the Marines. Can’t read well? No big deal – don’t need to read when you’re an Infantryman in the Army! Can’t get into college or get a good job? Heck who needs that – join the Navy!!
Finn McCool
April 28th, 2011
12:55 pm
You know, when you send Lil’l Johnny to private school and still have to pay for public education, you aren’t completely throwing that money away.
That money is going to help teach and train an individual who may one day be less likely to beat the crap out of your Lil’ Johnny for raiding his 401K plan.
No, but seriously, you have to have somewhat educated people to get jobs and be able to/ want to buy the “stuff” you are selling. You have to remember, you are creating a future market.
mm
April 28th, 2011
12:56 pm
They don’t want to test the charter school students because that would prove they are no better educated than public school students.
Can you imagine some of their answers?
The earth is 6000 years old.
The earth was created by God in 7 days.
The tides are caused by God (kudos to O’Reilly for that one).
There is no such thing as global warming.
The right is pushing charter schools so they can brainwash our kids with religious and wingnut BS. They haven’t been able to push their agenda in public schools so privately run schools is the obvious solution.
USMC
April 28th, 2011
12:56 pm
“USMC 12:04- likewise, I think Reed is doing a stand up job. (I did vote for him however)”-jm
I really like Kasim Reed( I didn’t vote for him) and his stance on the Atlanta Public Schools issue, etc.
He is making “common sense” decisions and isn’t locked into the usual “Racial Politics”(white&black) that we have had to put up with from the city of Atlanta.
And all of the sudden you look up and “the big bad Republican crook”-Nathan Deal(I didn’t vote for him either) and minority members across the aisle are hanging out and discussing issues in a statesmanlike manner with complements coming from both sides.
I think Nathan Deal is going to be a really good Governor and the same goes for Kasim Reed as Mayor of Atlanta.
I have never seen the simple communication and teamwork on real issues exhibited by a Governor of Georgia and Mayor of Atlanta in 44 years. That is a great sign for Atlanta and Georgia.
Yippee
April 28th, 2011
12:57 pm
Sounds like Mary Elizabeth could be classified as a Kochophobe. But then that topic was the other day.
Today there seems to be great angst relative to the kids; their schooling; and tests. Well, voucher smoucher and poopy doo. They won’t have time for test taking, much less school. Heck, there may no longer be any schools if something doesn’t get done about the spending and entitlement problem. Take a look at the future awaiting the kids if we don’t fix it.
http://heritageaction.com/tell-president-obama-to-stop-making-our-kids-pay/?UA-16902633-1&utm_source=heritageaction&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=video%2Bkids%2Bpay
Peadawg
April 28th, 2011
12:58 pm
“Damn Pea, whatever you’ve been eating for breakfast…. Pass me some of that sh*t!!!!!” – All I had was a bowl of oatmeal with some splenda and milk in it. My wife may had spiked it…who knows.
“wouldn’t it make more sense just to put the matter aside and wait until some solid evidence comes in?” – It may make more sense to you to not believe in Him, but not to me and many others.
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
12:59 pm
jm – where ya movin’ to??
getting a new gig?
jm
April 28th, 2011
1:00 pm
USMC 12:56 – I agree, I think Deal is going an ok job so far and he does seem to have a practical, cooperative minded approach, though I think it may be a little early to tell for sure. I wish the original tax reform council proposal had passed, but…. that’s not entirely Deal’s fault. Our legislature is a circus….
Left wing management
April 28th, 2011
1:01 pm
Finn: “No, but seriously, you have to have somewhat educated people to get jobs and be able to/ want to buy the “stuff” you are selling. You have to remember, you are creating a future market.”
Ah but that was the old Fordist model. We’re post-Fordist now baby!!! Nowadays, to the extent we have actual markets at all, and not just ever greater debt bubbles, they’re going to be in the far flung growth nations.
Dave R.
April 28th, 2011
1:01 pm
SoCo: “Imagine how I feel. I’ve been paying for 8 years. It will be another 4 before my child sets foot in a public school building.”
Yeah, but on the plus side, coming from Alabama it means your kid is likely to clear middle school and go on to an excellent life-time career in fast food restaurants!
jm
April 28th, 2011
1:01 pm
USinUK 12:59 – not a done deal yet…..
stands for decibels
April 28th, 2011
1:01 pm
Just to address an item of off-topic interest…
If the existence of God cannot be proved at all, why do you believe in Him?
eh. Why not? I believe that God is love. I don’t indulge myself in a whole lot more specificity than that.
(as for what anyone’s Holy Book means, or ought to mean, I think Rabbi Shammai had it right. “That which is hateful to you, do not do to your neighbor. That is the whole Torah; the rest is commentary. Go and study it.”)
Others’ mileage may vary.
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
1:02 pm
Evening news – loads of people celebrating the royal wedding tomorrow –
it’s nice to see people coming together and celebrating
Finn McCool
April 28th, 2011
1:03 pm
The right is pushing charter schools so they can brainwash our kids with religious and wingnut BS.
With everyone else’s money, no less.
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
1:04 pm
jm – the job isn’t a done deal or a new job isn’t a done deal?
either way, BEST OF LUCK to you!!
nothing as stressful or as exciting as a move – I hope it all works out
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
1:04 pm
der – the job isn’t done or the move isn’t done?
(half watching the news, half writing – failing at both)
Lil' Barry Bailout
April 28th, 2011
1:05 pm
@Lil Barry
Can you honestly say that your educational achievement is anywhere near that of President Obama?
Didn’t think so!
————-
Sorry, but my policy is to not share any more personal info than necessary. I will tell you this, though–I know how to spend less than I have coming in, unlike your Idiot Messiah! I also know how to run a profitable business and keep my promises to customers, also unlike Obozo. And when something doesn’t go my way, I don’t blame it on the guy who was sitting in my chair two and a half years ago.
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
1:05 pm
Test
The Joint Commission on Accredidation
April 28th, 2011
1:06 pm
Dang Jay, your article is so interesting that….were it within our executive power to do so…
…we would order all Metro Area School officials to STOP CORRECTING CRCT score sheets this week and take a small break in order to read your copy….
…after all, they still have all weekend to bring those scores up! One simply can’t erase for hours on end without a break now and then!
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
1:06 pm
Lil Barry…we also dont scream out racism.
jm
April 28th, 2011
1:07 pm
USinUK 1:04 – negotations / process not a done deal yet (knocking on wood)
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
1:08 pm
ooooo … the Syrian Ambassador has been disinvited … Libya not invited … Bahrain not invited … also not invited – Blair and Brown …
(hey – that means they have room – I’d better find my hat!)
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
1:08 pm
jm – well, speaking as one who is revelling in a new gig, I’m knocking wood for you, too
Lil' Barry Bailout
April 28th, 2011
1:09 pm
If you’re paying attention to the royal wedding or something called Snooki, then you’re either an idiot or a loser.
Glenn Beck
April 28th, 2011
1:10 pm
Lil Barry…we also dont scream out racism.
Speak for yourself.
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
1:11 pm
Glenn Beck you scream racism?? WHO KNEW???
I cant wait for Herman Cain to come out and scream racism for the Demons not voting for him….do you think that will happen?
BMDPD
April 28th, 2011
1:14 pm
Standardized tests are a joke. Teachers do their best to teach the test because they are scared. We teach our kids at home, but my kids just completed the Stanford Tests today. One of my daughter’s questions was “What do you do when you are driving and the light turns red?” And we wonder why we as a nation are behind other countries. My son said the test was political with a big slant to the left. It asked him “How does the United States benefit from immigration?”. I will say it again. Standardized tests are a joke!
Herman Cain
April 28th, 2011
1:16 pm
I cant wait for Herman Cain to come out and scream racism
No need. Already got good upstanding peeps who do that for me!
Keep Up the Good Fight!
April 28th, 2011
1:17 pm
If you’re paying attention to something called
SnookiLil’ barry bailout and not mocking or laughing at him , then you’re either an idiot or a loser.Fixed that for you! No thanks needed. Its a public service.
Barak
April 28th, 2011
1:17 pm
Racism, Racism Racism….don’t these people know that I am half white. I am stil doing my best to keep the black man down! hahahahaha
jm
April 28th, 2011
1:18 pm
BMDPD – the US does benefit from immigration. Depending on how its done and which individuals we’re talking about.
Drug dealing immigrants. Bad.
PHD’s in engineering. Good. Very good.
USMC
April 28th, 2011
1:18 pm
I really think our young people would be well served if our educational system went back to the 3 R’s:
Reading, (w)Riting, and (a)Rithmatic as a foundation.
Joe Mama
April 28th, 2011
1:20 pm
UGA1999 — “Mick….again I am not totally disagreeing with you. I am just for options.”
You already have options *today.* If you want to pull your kid out of public school and put him/her in a private academy, a church school, military academy or even homeschool them, you can do that TODAY.
What you don’t have is *subsidized* school choice, and that’s what this is really all about.
“If an education costs $1 for a public education and it costs $1 for a private education (hypothetical of course). I do not see why the left is fighting the voucher program. Competition and high education is better for us all.”
So would it be okay with you if Section 8 vouchers could be used for a Buckhead condo? And if four poor guys pooled their vouchers to move into the condo across the parking lot from you?
How would you feel if WIC and food stamps could be used at Ruth’s Chris? Would it put you off your porterhouse and potatoes Lyonnais if a poor person was hoeing down a lunch at the table next to you?
What if old MARTA tokens and unused Breeze cards could be used to buy a used car? Would you like it if Jeff Whitetrash came to buy your used Nissan with a wheelbarrow-load of expired transit tokens?
Public assistance has *never* meant ‘you can use it in any way you see fit.’ Public assistance has always had restrictions and strings attached. If you want the Section 8 housing, the WIC/food stamps, the subsidized MARTA rides or the free public education, then you have to take it in the form provided.
If you want the higher-priced spread, then you’ve got to come off the hip yourself. Don’t look to the taxpayer to subsidize your family’s lifestyle choices.
AngryRedMarsWoman
April 28th, 2011
1:20 pm
Jay said – “It’s in everybody’s interest to help those kids overcome the disinterest and worse of their parents, and schools are the only place where that can happen.”
Yes. I agree. I am very involved in my child’s education and I MAKE time to be involved even though I am stretched pretty thin with work, home chores, etc. and I do feel sorry for the kids whose parents are not so interested, or worse who are hostile to education. One weapon in my pro-education arsenal is to tell my child how much it would suck to be poor. I push education because it gives you choices in life and because with an education you have a shot at living a comfortable life – the guy without an education has very limited choices. Maybe education would have more value to them if some of these kids weren’t raised with an understanding that they will be “okay” if they can just push out a baby or find some other way to get on the government teat?
Normal
April 28th, 2011
1:21 pm
Totally off topic, but something to ponder…
http://www.navytimes.com/news/2011/04/navy-mabus-women-attack-submarines-042711w/
jconservative
April 28th, 2011
1:21 pm
No one likes “government schools”. Boortz has been ranting about them for years.
The disdain for “government schools” is probably why the University of Georgia is about to close its doors for lack of students. No one likes “government schools”.
We should outlaw any public money going to private schools no matter how the public money gets to the school. Private schools are just a bad idea.
Heck! Look at Barack H Obama, 9 years in private Christian schools and look at how he turned out.
What more evidence do you want?
USMC
April 28th, 2011
1:21 pm
“BMDPD – the US does benefit from immigration. Depending on how its done and which individuals we’re talking about.
Drug dealing immigrants. Bad.
PHD’s in engineering. Good. Very good.”
(fill in occupation desired) Legal Immigrants…Best!
Normal
April 28th, 2011
1:23 pm
http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.americanprogress.org/cartoons/2008/05/img/052908_big.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.americanprogress.org/cartoons/2008/05/052908_big.html&h=448&w=600&sz=73&tbnid=VhA25J39OGvEYM:&tbnh=101&tbnw=135&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dcartoons%2Bon%2Beducation%26tbm%3Disch%26tbo%3Du&zoom=1&q=cartoons+on+education&usg=__SmvYeNAmfiX8wPQjc06BiqOumZE=&sa=X&ei=RKK5TciEE4q-tgfn6KneBA&ved=0CCsQ9QEwBA
DebbieDoRight
April 28th, 2011
1:24 pm
Heck, there may no longer be any schools if something doesn’t get done about the spending and entitlement problem
You mean gas subsidies?
LBB: If you’re paying attention to the royal wedding or something called Snooki, then you’re either an idiot or a loser.
Why don’t men like weddings? They are the most beautiful and life altering moments ever! I think men have wedding envy……
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
1:24 pm
Joe….who said higher priced. Again read the posts then come back with an intelligent comment which you have yet to do.
You are speaking of standardized housing versus education. Let me guess you attended public schools and maybe just maybe you have a two year degree from a community college.
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
1:25 pm
Demoncrats = HYPOCRATS!
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
1:25 pm
USMC – hell, I’ll go one better than that – I think the US and UK education system would improve if they went back to a college track / vocational education system. not everyone is cut out for university, why are we educating them that way?
USMC
April 28th, 2011
1:25 pm
I like the idea of educational monies following the student instead of the student having to follow the money. (to the non-performing school). It can work.
I believe some of the Scandinavian countries have perfected this idea.
BMDPD
April 28th, 2011
1:25 pm
Normal, I went from nothing to an MS in the military almost all paid for. I did have to take 1 student loan of about 2k and some GI bill assistance. What you “Normal” people don’t realize is that the military provides you every opportunity to get your degree while you are active.
Normal
April 28th, 2011
1:27 pm
Could it be that the GOP saw this cartoon…hhhmmmm?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ASW3UCc17AI
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
1:27 pm
UGA – ‘who said higher priced’ – and, yet, you still haven’t posted ANYthing that backs up your claim of $25K/year assertion.
as I said earlier, even CATO says that it’s $10K/year – which is less than the Pius tuition and fees I cited earlier
BMDPD
April 28th, 2011
1:29 pm
jm, Legal immigration may be good for our country, but it is sad when your 12 year old tells you he had to answer based on what would be considered liberal views. That was not the only slanted question.
Normal
April 28th, 2011
1:29 pm
BMDPD,
My “Viet Nam era G.I. Bill” paid for my education and living allowance for my family, so what’s your point?
WOODSTOCK MIKE
April 28th, 2011
1:29 pm
@Finn Mcool
What’s funny is that the “left” is just as religious as the “right”. If you don’t agree with that please provide something that says otherwise.
I guess you haven’t gone to church lately, just as many Democrats as Republicans.
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
1:30 pm
USIN…here is one just for starters and this is from the left leaning Washington Post….
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/04/04/AR2008040402921.html
Ok, again lets use the $10k number. Would you be for the government giving each family and $10k voucher to use on education for their children. It is not costing you a dime more than it is today.
Joe Mama
April 28th, 2011
1:31 pm
UGA1999 — “Joe….who said higher priced.”
We all know that private education costs more than public. Don’t try to act like it doesn’t. The only way you get off cheaper is homeschooling, and I certainly hope you’re not going to try to get a voucher for that.
“Again read the posts”
I already did. Reread my post, because there were a lot of questions in there that *you* obviously didn’t read.
“then come back with an intelligent comment which you have yet to do.”
No, I’ve already trumped you. You simply have no coherent response to the argument I advanced.
Public assistance has NEVER meant that you can use it whenever and wherever you please, and that’s a fact. My examples and questions to you still stand, and I have a pretty good idea why you haven’t replied to them.
“You are speaking of standardized housing versus education.”
YOU argued that if costs were the same, that you should be able to choose the form that the free public education comes in. I merely pointed out how ludicrous your argument was by applying YOUR suggestion to housing, food assistance and subsidized transit. As they say on “Law and Order,” ‘you opened that door, Counselor, so I’m letting opposing counsel walk through it.’ Don’t get all heated at me because I showed the hole in your argument.
“Let me guess you attended public schools”
Yes. And?
“and maybe just maybe you have a two year degree from a community college.”
Five degrees at or above the Bachelors’ level. Plus a hitch in the US Army. You?
BMDPD
April 28th, 2011
1:31 pm
Normal, my point is that soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines can get a degree on active duty. The US military affords them every opportunity to do so. Most of them chose to drink and have a good time their first few years in when they could have gone to school instead. The prior GI bill was enough.
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
1:31 pm
Joe Mama…..you are behind on every post you render.
GFY
April 28th, 2011
1:32 pm
Now this buffoon Bookman is calling for measurement of a program’s effectiveness…..that is rich coming from a lib…….care to measure the effectiveness of the money that has been spent on the “War on Poverty”? How about Title I in the public schools/government daycare? Mostly people are just tired of seeing such poor results in public education and prefer not to have to pay for their kids as well as yours when funding education.
poison pen
April 28th, 2011
1:32 pm
DebbieDoRight
April 28th, 2011
12:54 pm
Jefferson: The same neocons that want a free ride to private schools would hide their parent’s assets to get them into a nursing home paid by medicare.
Can I get an AMEN?!?
Mary E.: There has been a systematic, political effort, for 30 years, by extreme Rightwing ideologues not only to dismantle public schools, but to dismantle – in an out of proportion way – the public arena, overall, for the private market
I’m thinking this is because they want the people from the public schools to become military fodder for their big ole military machine. Bad education? No problem – join the Marines. Can’t read well? No big deal – don’t need to read when you’re an Infantryman in the Army! Can’t get into college or get a good job? Heck who needs that – join the Navy!!
Debbie, what a shi**y thing to say about the Military. These brave people die for you and you insult them, what the hell is wrong with you?
The Repubs have done more for the Military than any Left wing kook has ever done. Have you ever flown an F-16 or a chopper or how about an Abrams Tank? didn’t think so.
You need some smarts for that, something you obviously lack.
USMC
April 28th, 2011
1:33 pm
“USMC – hell, I’ll go one better than that – I think the US and UK education system would improve if they went back to a college track / vocational education system. not everyone is cut out for university, why are we educating them that way?”-UsinUK
Did I wake up a Democrat today?:-)
I completely agree with you! (did I just say that?)
Do you remember when Technically/Vocationally gifted students were able to pursue a Technical education? (Technical/Vocational schools)
These days everyone has been brainwashed into thinking that they MUST to go to college to be successful. I am in total agreement with you.
Thulsa Doom
April 28th, 2011
1:33 pm
Just saw on tv where 15 students in a Tucson, Arizona school were handcuffed together and were arrested for an in school protest. What were they protesting? They were protesting “ethnic studies” being changed from a core requirement to an elective. Hell I didn’t even know they taught utter nonsense like “ethnic studies” as a core class much less an elective. I mistakenly thought they were supposed to be teaching reading, writing, arithmetic, etc. This tells me all I need to know about public education in this country. I hereby declare this debate over.
DebbieDoRight
April 28th, 2011
1:33 pm
What you don’t have is *subsidized* school choice, and that’s what this is really all about.
You know I think I’ve got a solution to this whole problem:
Want a voucher to put your kid in private school? Then the amount that you pay for property tax every year that goes towards school funding (public school), can be reimbursed to you and you can take that money and enroll your kids into private school.
Voila!!
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
1:34 pm
Joe Mama…..here is my point that you seem to have a hard time understanding so I will attempt type slowly for you.
If a public school costs the government/taxpayer $1. Would you be willing for the government to give each family a $1 voucher so that they can get their eduction from an alternative resouce?
Was that slow enough for you?
jm
April 28th, 2011
1:34 pm
BMDPD – well, if the question was worded that way, it was a leading question.
Joe Mama
April 28th, 2011
1:35 pm
UGA1999 — “Joe Mama…..you are behind on every post you render.”
Not because *you* say so, Young One. (laughing)
I’d like to see your coherent response to my response in re food stamps, Section 8 and subsidized transit. If you have no problem allowing the change you advocate to public education, then you should have no problem allowing poor people to use their assistance to move into Buckhead condos, to buy cars with Breeze cards and to eat at fine dining establishments with their WIC and food stamp assistance.
If you think not, I’d be very interested in hearing your exposition on same.
BMDPD
April 28th, 2011
1:36 pm
DebbieDoRight, you are insane. The AJC published an article not too long ago stating that 25% of high school graduates cannot score high enough on the ASVAB to join the Army (lowest required of all branches). Also, 25% of high school graduates are too fat to join the military. Look it up if you don’t believe me.
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
1:36 pm
Thulsa…here is the video….good ole public education!!
I would have arrested all of them and then requested immigration status.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=59d_1303985662
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
1:37 pm
Joe….try to stay on subject. I know it is difficult for you guys but I believe in you.
The Real Truth
April 28th, 2011
1:38 pm
US schools do fine! Look at how many go on to college. If the US wants to be #1 in testing, then only test the best & brightest! That’s how other countries “out perform the US” on standardized test.
Politicians want the education in the US to struggle so they can use education as a “pawn” to get what they want. If our schools were ranked high on the list, then politicians would not have anything to complain about.
In most other foreign countries, students who are academically challenged do not study beyond an elementary education, instead they choose a vocation and learn a trade. The US should look into vocation education as an alternative for failing students.
Thulsa Doom
April 28th, 2011
1:39 pm
Debbiedoright,
Actually the military has dramatically higher standards for entrance than it did in the past. I know because my brother was an officer at a recruiting post for several years. I have to wonder if someone who went to school in the Detroit or Atlanta public school systems could even get into the military nowadays. I’m thinking the military probably would still take them though- albeit reluctantly.
As for the worst big school systems in the country such as Atlanta, Philly, Detroit, Washington, DC, LA, Chicago, etc. which party has controlled these failing public school systems for decades now? Ya’ll get back to me when you can figure that one out.
V
April 28th, 2011
1:39 pm
The State “Standards” tests are one of the big problems. Teaching to the CRCT has wrecked our cirricullum. Jay, did you totally miss the social studies flop and the math DISASTER that has occurred over the last 5 years as Georgia DOE whipsawed teachers and students so that ‘experts’ and vendors could be paid enormous sums to mess with the cirriculum? I am for accountable vouchers-but the tests must be ITBS or some nationally or internationally recognized measure of performance. ACT and SAT scores by high school(private and public) are availible. Does this mean that vouchers for high school are ok? Parents should hire and fire their kids teachers. TEACHERS should get to hire and fire their students. The more educrats, vendors, lobbyist, administrators, etc… we can put out of jobs, the better off the kids will be. The ‘education complex’ rivals the ‘military industrial complex’.
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
1:40 pm
UGA – did you miss the “in the district” part of that sentence???
not nationwide, in DC
as for giving each family $10K (or a $10K tax break), no – I’m not for it. because you seem to forget that it’s not just those with children who pay for education – it’s those of us who have chosen NOT to have children who pay for education. I don’t want my money to go towards your child’s (or your neighbor’s child’s) religious education – or schools which can refuse kids who have special needs – or schools who can refuse admission because of race or the sexuality of a kid’s parents. ALL of which are what you get with private schools
AmVet
April 28th, 2011
1:40 pm
BMDPD. I wonder if that entrance exam is still absurdly easy.
As I recall it would not be terribly difficult for a precocious eighth grader…
poison pen
April 28th, 2011
1:40 pm
BMDPD
April 28th, 2011
1:31 pm
Normal, my point is that soldiers, sailors, airmen and marines can get a degree on active duty. The US military affords them every opportunity to do so. Most of them chose to drink and have a good time their first few years in when they could have gone to school instead. The prior GI bill was enough.
BMDBD, while I agree with you on some things, I think for the past 10 years our soldiers aren’t partying to much, do you?
Peadawg
April 28th, 2011
1:42 pm
UGA1999 @ 1:24 – ” then come back with an intelligent comment which you have yet to do.”
then
UGA1999 @ 1:25 – “Demoncrats = HYPOCRATS!”
um…anyone else here see the irony? Damn, son, you give UGA grads a bad name.
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
1:43 pm
USin….but you ALREADY are paying for their education. Actually in most cases what you get with a private school is a better education. I know that you would rather see children raised in a failing education system that is producing some of the worlds lowest educated students. That is a great investment of your tax dollar. Great job. Typcial nonsnse by the left. Who is surprised.
At the same time you want to use my tax dollars to pay to kill babies. WOW!
Peadawg
April 28th, 2011
1:43 pm
USinUK @ 1:40
Exactly!
Joe Mama
April 28th, 2011
1:44 pm
Debbie — “Want a voucher to put your kid in private school? Then the amount that you pay for property tax every year that goes towards school funding (public school), can be reimbursed to you and you can take that money and enroll your kids into private school.”
I have no kids, and therefore no kids in public school. Do I get *my* property taxes back?
UGA1999 — Joe Mama…..here is my point that you seem to have a hard time understanding so I will attempt type slowly for you.”
UGA — there is no call for you to be a jackass on this thread. I have been polite to you, and I think you should be polite in return. I have questioned neither your education nor your intelligence, and I have borne your unwarranted insults with good grace. Now straighten up and fly right, or else I shall ask Mr. Bookman to consider whether or not you need a time-out from this blog.
Is that clear? Or do I need to type *that* more slowly for you?
I have understood your idea *just fine* from the beginning. I simply do not agree with it.
“If a public school costs the government/taxpayer $1. Would you be willing for the government to give each family a $1 voucher so that they can get their eduction from an alternative resouce?”
No. I am opposed to your idea. As I have already said, public assistance has *never* meant that you can use it however, wherever and whenever you please. Regulations are in place to (hopefully) prevent fraud and misuse. Surely you are against those two things.
If you truly advocate your idea, then would it be okay for you if poor people could pool their Section 8 vouchers and move into the Buckhead condo across the parking lot from you?
If you truly advocate your idea, then would it be okay for you if poor people could use their food stamps/WIC to eat at Ruth’s Chris or another fine dining establishment?
If you truly advocate your idea, then would it be okay for you if poor people could buy cars by saving up old MARTA tokens and Breeze cards?
Your argument is the same as the situations I have posited; just applied to different forms of public assistance. And if you support one, then I can see no logical or policy reason to reject the others. That’s why I oppose your idea.
“Was that slow enough for you?”
I understood your concept from the outset. You needn’t have been a jerk about it.
BMDPD
April 28th, 2011
1:44 pm
poison pen, I retired from the Navy 2 years ago. The enlisted barracks rival any college dorm. Some of my drunkest youthful times were in Bahrain and United Arab Emirates. Trust me. They are still partying. Education (core courses) are offered on many remote bases.
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
1:44 pm
THE LEFT WOULD RATHER KILL BABIES THAN EDUCATE THEM!
poison pen
April 28th, 2011
1:44 pm
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
1:40 pm
UGA – did you miss the “in the district” part of that sentence???
not nationwide, in DC
as for giving each family $10K (or a $10K tax break), no – I’m not for it. because you seem to forget that it’s not just those with children who pay for education – it’s those of us who have chosen NOT to have children who pay for education. I don’t want my money to go towards your child’s (or your neighbor’s child’s) religious education – or schools which can refuse kids who have special needs – or schools who can refuse admission because of race or the sexuality of a kid’s parents. ALL of which are what you get with private schools
USUK, that’s a bold face lie, my 2 Grandaughters go to a private school and none of what you state is true. If you said some private schools do then I might agree with you, but not all, never.
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
1:45 pm
joe….Oh NO!!! Joe Mama is going to tell the teacher!! hahahahahaha I have said nothing in my posts that were degrading at all. Grow up.
Thulsa Doom
April 28th, 2011
1:45 pm
UGA1999 thanks much,
Yesterday a Tucson, Arizona Unified School District board meeting was scheduled to discuss making the La Raza Studies, or the Race Studies, an elective in public schools rather than banning the program all together. The ethnic studies program was banned earlier this year because of the material being taught in the program. Instructors of the Raza Studies, also known as Mexican-American Studies.
Ahhh yes. So now we have our American public education being hijacked by illegal aliens in our own country- a move no doubt supported by the libs for some inexplicable reason. Tell ya what though. We can appease the illegals by granting this class then we’ll have Eurocentric studies, african centric studies, asian centric studies, native american studies, etc. Am I leaving anyone out? Oh, we gotta have Arabic centric studies and South Asian as in Indian centric studies. After all that we’ll just tell the students to learn the reading, writing, and arithmetic on their own time.
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
1:46 pm
Poison….most of what he says is a lie. We have gotten used to it.
Peadawg
April 28th, 2011
1:46 pm
“At the same time you want to use my tax dollars to pay to kill babies. ”
That doesn’t exist.
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
1:46 pm
Planned Parenthood……
Joe Mama
April 28th, 2011
1:47 pm
UGA1999 — “Joe….try to stay on subject.”
I’m on the subject, THREADMARM. (eyeroll)
You don’t determine the direction of discussion for others.
“I know it is difficult for you guys but I believe in you.”
What seems to be difficult is for you to handle coherent negative responses to your ideas. I know it is hurtful for you to hear negative feedback on your ideas from folks who have already gotten there and thought them out ahead of you, but life is hard.
Your politeness, going forward, would be greatly appreciated. I am hopeful that you will not disappoint me in that regard.
poison pen
April 28th, 2011
1:48 pm
UGA, Amen!
DebbieDoRight
April 28th, 2011
1:48 pm
pp: These brave people die for you and you insult them, what the hell is wrong with you?
The Repubs have done more for the Military than any Left wing kook has ever done. Have you ever flown an F-16 or a chopper or how about an Abrams Tank? didn’t think so.
You rang? Oh peepee it’s always good to hear from you! Did you ever clear up that rash? Also did you get a chance to visit your local clinic for some testing? Don’t put it off – it’s better to know for sure than to be afraid of the answer. OK back to your question: An Abrams tank or any tank for that matter that’s used for combat has never been driven by a woman — women are not considered as combatants in a war (US). As for an F-16……….no. Chopper…………ummm no again!!! Thanks for playing!
BMPDD: DebbieDoRight, you are insane. The AJC published an article not too long ago stating that 25% of high school graduates cannot score high enough on the ASVAB to join the Army (lowest required of all branches). Also, 25% of high school graduates are too fat to join the military.
That was HS grads in Georgia not nationwide. However, the cunning military industralists can always figure out a way to circumvent this egregious error – they can simply lower the test requirements!
Voila!!!
Today it’s voila, yesterday it was Roll Ride!!! (an homage to elephants).
John Birch
April 28th, 2011
1:48 pm
Public schools might benefit more from the increased competition from private schools more than they would from the increased funding. Anyone getting public funding should be accountable (standardized testing) and that should include the teachers and addministrators.
jm
April 28th, 2011
1:50 pm
UGA1999 – I must stop speedreading. I though you originally wrote: THE LEFT WOULD RATHER KILL BABIES THAN DUPLICATE THEM!
Look, Calvin’s duplicator will take care of any issues.
BMDPD
April 28th, 2011
1:50 pm
No Debbie, Georgia was closer to 30%.
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/12/21/high-school-grads-fail-military-exam_n_799767.html
Keep Up the Good Fight!
April 28th, 2011
1:50 pm
Pea…have some empathy for the UGAwow…. after all he got a government public school education and we know how bad he tells us that is.
Rich
April 28th, 2011
1:51 pm
I thought that we hated standardized test from NCLB?
poison pen
April 28th, 2011
1:51 pm
Thulsa, When we lived in Michigan, just North of Detroit, the board of Ed. tried to get Black English as a subject matter in schools. This is how far we have come as a society and people wonder why our children are having a hard time.
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
1:51 pm
UGA – “but you ALREADY are paying for their education”
I pay for their education in a system that will NOT turn anyone away, regardless of their educational needs, regardless of their religion, regardless of their family situation. And again, there are more schools that do well than there are failing schools – and, yes, I’m happy to continue funding that system.
Poisson – did I say that ALL private schools do that? no. so, spare us your poutrage.