Why voucher advocates are allergic to standardized tests
In Pennsylvania, Republican legislators are pushing through a school vouchers bill that would divert increasingly scarce state education dollars to private and parochial schools. The move itself is controversial, but at the moment I’d like to focus on one particular aspect of the debate, as reported by the Hazleton Standard Speaker:
“The panel defeated an amendment by Sen. John Blake, D-22, Archbald, to have choice students who attend a private or parochial school take the Pennsylvania State Standardized Assessment given periodically in public schools. That way there would be an equitable standard to measure academic performance, he added.”
Now why would school-choice advocates reject a proposal to have voucher recipients take the same test as their public-school peers? That seems peculiar. If a private school accepts money from the state, it ought to at least be willing to demonstrate that taxpayers are getting value out of that investment, right? If you want to be good stewards of public money, you need some means of measuring performance.
In addition, since the whole idea behind school choice is, well, choice, it would seem essential to give students in public and private schools the same test, so that parents can try to compare outcomes.
Up in Wisconsin — where public-school students regularly rank among the highest in the nation on the SAT and ACT, Gov. Scott Walker is also proposing to broaden an existing voucher program, as the AP reports:
“Walker is proposing expanding the voucher program that currently is only available to low-income students in Milwaukee. He wants to expand the program to all of Milwaukee County and phase out the low-income qualifying ceiling.
He also wants to do away with a requirement that voucher students take the same statewide achievement tests as students in public schools.”
Hmmm. There it is again: Walker wants to abolish a requirement that schools accepting taxpayer vouchers agree to test its students just as public schools do. And these are not isolated incidents. Voucher advocates often oppose any requirement to subject voucher recipients to standardized testing.
The Milwaukee voucher program, for example, has been in existence since 1990, but the testing requirement was added only in 2006, and even then over the protest of Republican legislators. And now that they and Walker have regained power, they want that provision gone. The question is why.
The editorial board of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel solves the mystery:
“Last week, scores released by the state Department of Public Instruction showed that students in Milwaukee’s school choice program performed worse than or about the same as students in Milwaukee Public Schools in math and reading.
A day later, researchers at the University of Arkansas who have been tracking MPS and voucher students since 2005-’06 found that the two are performing roughly the same.”
Oh …. now it makes sense. They don’t want to mandate testing because that testing has demonstrated that students using vouchers are performing no better and perhaps worse than their public-school counterparts.
Again, the data go back only to 2005-2006 because until then, proponents of vouchers in Wisconsin had succeeded in blocking testing of students who used the program. That changed only after a major scandal erupted involving largely unregulated private schools.
As the Christian Science Monitor reported at the time:
“In one of the worst instances, a convicted rapist opened a school, which has since shut down. Reporters from the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel tried to visit all 115 schools then in the program last year, and found a mixed bag. Nine schools refused to let reporters in, and the paper cited “10 to 15 others where … the overall operation appeared alarming when it came to the basic matter of educating children.”
One school was opened by a woman who said she had a vision from God to start a school, and whose only educational background was as a teacher’s aide. Others had few books or signs of a coherent curriculum. Yet they’ve been able to enroll students.”
And here’s an AP report on Milwaukee voucher schools from that same time frame:
“The schools are required to report virtually nothing about their methods to the state, or to track their students’ performance. Proponents say that frees the schools from onerous bureaucracy. But some say the lack of oversight makes them a prime target for abuse.
At the Mandella Academy for Science and Math, school officials admitted signing up more than 200 students who never showed and then cashing $330,000 in state-issued tuition checks, which the principal used to buy, among other things, Mercedes-Benzes for himself and the assistant principal.
Meanwhile, Alex’s Academics of Excellence received $2.8 million in voucher money over three years before the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported that the school’s founder, James A. Mitchell, served nearly a decade in prison for a 1971 rape. Unlike their counterparts at public schools, principals and teachers at private schools do not have to undergo criminal background checks.”
Theoretically, the marvels of the free market were supposed to run places such as “Alex’s Academics of Excellence” out of business. Instead, government was forced to intervene, because what happens in theory and what happens in reality are often two different things. But in Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, loyalty to theory is once again carrying the day.
– Jay Bookman
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470 comments Add your comment
TaxPayer
April 28th, 2011
11:19 am
Birch,
Not to worry for apparently that nude teacher can simply start up his/her own private school and avoid all scrutiny. I do believe Jay vouched for that in his post.
stands for decibels
April 28th, 2011
11:19 am
below, a voice of reason
jm, remember how ol’ Orrin filibustered long and into the night to fight those irresponsible tax cuts, back in the day? How he fought tirelessly to ensure that Medicare Part D was properly funded, and to ensure that negotiated Rx prices were part of the mix?
neither can I.
Lil' Barry Bailout
April 28th, 2011
11:20 am
“bad test taker” is a euphemism for “moron”
(ir)Rational
April 28th, 2011
11:21 am
LBB – The tests don’t cover the entire curriculum. At least they didn’t when I was in school. I’m not sure it even exists anymore, but I think the perfect example is/was the Georgia High School Graduation Test. You had to take the test sometime in April (I believe) of your junior year of high school. So, basically, I learned everything I needed to know to graduate by a month or so before I finished my junior year of high school. I can remember my 11th grade history class that year, that by school mandate, was split into two sections. The first half of the semester we went “as far as we could” in the history we were supposed to be learning, the second half, we simply prepared for the graduation test. After the test, we did nothing.
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
11:21 am
(ir) – yep, nothing will help failing schools quite like removing their funding.
I’m not saying that testing is perfect – in fact, I totally agree with you about teaching to the test – and that’s not jsut the “bad” teachers that do that, it’s all teachers as the edict flows down from the senior administrators for the county will demand it.
which begs the question – how do you measure success?
poison pen
April 28th, 2011
11:21 am
House lawmakers voted overwhelmingly last night to strip police officers, teachers, and other municipal employees of most of their rights to bargain over health care, saying the change would save millions of dollars for financially strapped cities and towns.
The 111-to-42 vote followed tougher measures to broadly eliminate collective bargaining rights for public employees in Ohio, Wisconsin, and other states. But unlike those efforts, the push in Massachusetts was led by Democrats who have traditionally stood with labor to oppose any reduction in workers’ rights.
Unions fought hard to stop the bill, launching a radio ad that assailed the plan and warning legislators that if they voted for the measure, they could lose their union backing in the next election. After the vote, labor leaders accused House Speaker Robert A. DeLeo and other Democrats of turning their backs on public employees.
Ads by Google
Will this be Jay’s next blog? NOT!
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
11:21 am
Usin….it doesnt “elude” me at all. However the fact that the left places their emphasis on food and healthcare for the lower class above a higher education for ALL youth…..SPEAKS VOLUMES!!!
Peadawg
April 28th, 2011
11:22 am
““bad test taker” is a euphemism for “moron”” – Are you a bad test taker?
Geeze…in no way shape or form does that comment make any sense.
Adam
April 28th, 2011
11:22 am
Carlosgv: I do not see a point in talking about the science of god except for what I said. I also see no reason to attack someone for having a faith, unless that faith leads to illogical and dangerous thinking and actions. Then, your core belief is not something that should be held onto.
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
11:23 am
Peadawg…I agree with you. Just another moronic comment from the left. Are you surprised?
Mick
April 28th, 2011
11:24 am
**“bad test taker” is a euphemism for “moron”**
That’s quite incorrect, see einstein or thomas edison. Taking tests is only one way of measuring learning…
poison pen
April 28th, 2011
11:24 am
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
11:21 am
(ir) – yep, nothing will help failing schools quite like removing their funding.
I’m not saying that testing is perfect – in fact, I totally agree with you about teaching to the test – and that’s not jsut the “bad” teachers that do that, it’s all teachers as the edict flows down from the senior administrators for the county will demand it.
which begs the question – how do you measure success?
I measure success by someone who can post all day while at work.
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
11:25 am
UGA – “However the fact that the left places their emphasis on food and healthcare for the lower class above a higher education for ALL youth…..SPEAKS VOLUMES!!!”
the only thing that’s speaking volumes is the voice in your head.
both the left and the right value providing an education to our children. The difference is how it’s provided. you want me to pay for your private school and I don’t. it’s just that simple.
jm
April 28th, 2011
11:25 am
LWM – by the way, there was a somewhat opposing view: that the state of HI essentially stoked the issue by saying it was going to find his birth certificate and release it, and then not doing so. That article is on politico as well. I think both are accurate.
Adam
April 28th, 2011
11:26 am
UGA: I hate to break it to you, but that moronic comment came from LBB, a consistent right singer ad Obama hater
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
11:26 am
“I measure success by someone who can post all day while at work.”
I love how people resort to that comment when they have nothing to say.
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
11:26 am
USin….you want me to pay for your food and healthcare……
Would you agree that the best way to get a class of people out of poverty is through education?
Isnt the left against monopolies and for competition?
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
11:26 am
next thing, you’re going to say “yeeerrrr in Eeeeengland, why don’t you talk on one of THEEEIIIIIRRRR blogs”
oy.
Peadawg
April 28th, 2011
11:27 am
“you want me to pay for your private school and I don’t.”
Amen!
poison pen
April 28th, 2011
11:27 am
I believe I made my point.
Mighty Righty
April 28th, 2011
11:27 am
Let’s face it. Our education system is broken. I don’t know if it is our teachers, the student’s parents, the Boards of Education, the U.S. Department of Education, Unions or all of the above. Focusing for or against vouchers will not fix it and as far as I can tell no liberal or conservative has an answer. If it were up to me, I would bulldoze the whole thing, fire everybody amd start over.
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
11:27 am
UGA – and, as i said earlier, there is competition. just because you can’t afford to send all your kids to Pius doesn’t mean that I should have to pay for them to go there.
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
11:28 am
poisson – see SoCo’s comment to UGA earlier
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
11:28 am
USin…what if the costs to attend a private school were the same as a public school. Then what would you think?
TaxPayer
April 28th, 2011
11:29 am
Who needs proof via test scores that an aeronautical engineer understands fracture mechanics or a civil engineer understands yield strength or buckling or vibrations. After all, that’s why we have the real world out there — to put them to the test in practice.
I still enjoy watching that video even after seeing it numerous times.
md
April 28th, 2011
11:29 am
“But unlike those efforts, the push in Massachusetts was led by Democrats who have traditionally stood with labor to oppose any reduction in workers’ rights.”
I’d hazard a guess that the un-utopian outcome of their hc system had something to do with it. Many of the projections prior to passage are higher. Even the number of emergency room visits increased once the plan was implemented…….seems folks don’t like the idea of giving up the convenience store medical treatment…………….and now they also have a shiny new card to present.
Peadawg
April 28th, 2011
11:31 am
“what if the costs to attend a private school were the same as a public school.”
If my aunt had a d*k she’d be my uncle. Good luck finding a private school that costs the same as a public school. That scenario doesn’t even exist.
(ir)Rational
April 28th, 2011
11:31 am
USinUK – I don’t know how to measure the success of a school, but there is plenty of evidence for the failures of the schools. I definitely know that the good teachers and the bad only teach the test. The best teacher I had in high school spent the last month before the test teaching it, but after it was over, she went back to teaching the same way she had before. She made English be one of the only classes I was prepared for when I started college. Oh, I went to a really bad high school. I did what I could to improve my situation, by doing dual enrollment with a nearby college, but my high school didn’t prepare me for anything other than working at the mill that was across the river from it.
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
11:31 am
UGA — and … and … and … what if Rainbows were made of Marshmellows! and what if highways were made of ice cream! and what if …
criminey – we could play that game all day – the costs aren’t the same.
I DO think that parents should be able to send their kid to whatever public school is in their county – not just be limited to the ones in their school district.
jm
April 28th, 2011
11:32 am
hmmmm
http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/04/27/carville.birther/index.html
With these bids duly reviewed and the bluffs factored in, even Ms. Nippy would surely conclude that these facts “trump the trick.”
So, in the words of Jack Cafferty, “Here’s my question to you:” What motivated the White House to become a part of the spectacle at this stage in the game? Was the posting of the birth certificate an intentional move to bolster the political standing of Donald Trump? This is one Democrat that hopes it was, as it would demonstrate a political move of great sophistication and overall strategic brilliance.
The opinions expressed in this commentary are solely those of James Carville.
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
11:32 am
USIN….nice intelligent response….I would expect no less. Ok, lets try this one more time. Do you know on average how much it cost per student to attend a public school?
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
11:33 am
p’dawg – 11:31 –
dammit man, you beat me to the punch (and did it in a much pithier way)
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
11:33 am
Usin….before you post your next comment. You may want to do some research. I think you will be surprised.
md
April 28th, 2011
11:33 am
“I DO think that parents should be able to send their kid to whatever public school is in their county – not just be limited to the ones in their school district.”
And many systems are set up that way…….transportation then becomes the deciding factor, as many parents will not take the child where they want the child to be.
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
11:34 am
peadawg…same question to you. What does it cost per student to attend a public school. What does it cost the government…..tax payer?
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
11:35 am
tick tock tick tock tick tock…..
(ir)Rational
April 28th, 2011
11:36 am
TaxPayer – those tests are different. You don’t take your professional engineer’s test directly after college, or your architectural registration test. You do an internship first, where you do learn by hands-on experience and real world trial and error (all the while having a licensed professional looking over your shoulder catching the errors.) And before you just pick out the first sentence in this post, yeah, they really are different. I wasn’t taught the tests I’ll have to take starting this summer to become a licensed architect in college. I was taught how to be an architect (sorta), and have since spent 3 years working in the real world adding to that knowledge and studying the things I’ll have to know to pass the test. Which coincidentally, are most of the things I’ll have to know to be an architect.
jm
April 28th, 2011
11:36 am
China is behaving like the cop in the final act of the remake of “The Thomas Crown Affair”: just start arresting everyone….
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/04/28/opinion/28kristof.html?_r=1
Peadawg
April 28th, 2011
11:36 am
“What does it cost per student to attend a public school.”
Are you talking about what the parents pay out of pocket or what the gov’t pays for? I’d be shocked if a parent has to pay $400+/month out of pocket for public school.
jm
April 28th, 2011
11:37 am
First, the government is arresting not only dissidents and Christians but also their family members and even their lawyers. Second, after a long period in which police would torture working-class prisoners but usually not intellectuals, the authorities are again brutalizing white-collar dissidents.
Peadawg
April 28th, 2011
11:38 am
Off to lunch…y’all be good, ya hear!
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
11:38 am
Peadawg….READ MY POST! How much does it cost the governmnet/taxpayer to send a student to public schools?
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
11:38 am
UGA – it depends who you ask – I’ve seen estimates as low as $3k and as high as $10k – depends on the bias of the person writing the report.
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
11:39 am
md – yep – no system is perfect -
(ir)Rational
April 28th, 2011
11:39 am
Awww, UGA, nobody is playing with you. Off to do more work, y’all have fun not agreeing on anything, or being surprised at who you agree with.
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
11:40 am
USin….the government average in 2008 is $25k per student. Working with Gwinnett County Schools, they claim it to be between $20k and $23k.
Now how much does it cost annually to attend GAC? or St. Pius.
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
11:41 am
UGA – you seem to forget, the COST of the student isn’t necessarily what’s PAID by the parent. in other words, “your money” isn’t the only money that funds your child. federal money goes in, state money goes in, etc.
and, lastly, tuition is only part of the cost of private eduction – things like books aren’t included, neither are uniforms, etc. it adds up.
jm
April 28th, 2011
11:43 am
Jay, a Daniels update below. I hope Daniels runs. I’m seriously sad about the spotlight they may be put under given the way politics works nowadays…. hopefully he gets kid glove treatment from the Media the way Obama did, his primary opponents may be a different matter (I don’t see the Obama campaign making an issue out of this stuff)….
http://www.nationalreview.com/articles/265671/daniels-president-katrina-trinko
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
11:43 am
UGA – 25K??
sorry, bub, I want to see a link to support that
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
11:43 am
hell, even CATO didn’t even claim half that
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
11:45 am
USin…so if they were equal would you still have a problem with the funding?
TaxPayer
April 28th, 2011
11:47 am
Well,
irrational, a test is a test is a test and it’s purpose should be to assess the student’s grasp of the particular subject. I had to pass exams in school in strength of materials, statics, dynamics, fracture mechanics, fatigue, elasticity, vibrations, etc., before I was even given the chance to move on to the real world. Then again, that was in a public school years ago. Perhaps things have changed.
Thulsa Doom
April 28th, 2011
11:49 am
In Pennsylvania, Republican legislators are pushing through a school vouchers bill that would divert increasingly scarce state education dollars to private and parochial schools.- Jay
Scare state education dollars? Really jay? Is this part of your comedy routine today? The U.S. spends more now on education than it ever has and spends more pupil than the overwhelming majority of countries on earth. And your response is to attack vouchers for this pathetic state of public education? Man that’s weak.
Voucher Advocate
April 28th, 2011
11:56 am
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaachoooooooo. Sta (snif) dard (sniffle) ided (aaa) dests (aaaa) are just (aaaaaaaaa) awful…. (choooooooooooo).
Better.
Thulsa Doom
April 28th, 2011
11:58 am
Theoretically, the marvels of the free market were supposed to run places such as “Alex’s Academics of Excellence” out of business. Instead, government was forced to intervene, because what happens in theory and what happens in reality are often two different things. But in Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, loyalty to theory is once again carrying the day.-JB
WOW! Never thought I would see the day when someone actually claims that public education is superior to a private school education. Wayyyyyyy too funny! I think those parents need to take their kids out of Marist and drop them into the Atlanta Public School system which is being threatened with losing its accreditation if you go by Jay’s logic.
And take the kids out of westminster and drop them into that superior school system that Clayton County runs. Oops. Wait a minute. Didn’t Clayton lose its accreditation briefly because of the clown circus going on down there?
Left wing management
April 28th, 2011
11:59 am
jm: “by the way, there was a somewhat opposing view: that the state of HI essentially stoked the issue by saying it was going to find his birth certificate and release it, and then not doing so. That article is on politico as well. I think both are accurate.”
That may be true, but even so the point remains that the document — simply by the fact of its existence — should close the argument. Period. The fact that it hasn’t reveals an erosion in the legitimacy of institutions (in this case the government itself) that’s very troubling.
jm
April 28th, 2011
12:01 pm
LWM – agree.
Lil' Barry Bailout
April 28th, 2011
12:03 pm
Maybe Jay can post about a chart showing how much we spend on education versus the countries that are kicking our butts. ‘Course, that won’t happen since it would put the lie to the libbtards claim that all our schools need is more “investment”.
What our schools need is less government meddling and the destruction of the teachers unions.
Mick
April 28th, 2011
12:03 pm
doom
Don’t cherry pick your private schools, there are many so called christian schools that don’t have certified teachers and would absolutely score lower than public schools on standardized tests. For every great private school there is a public school just as good, if not better..
USMC
April 28th, 2011
12:04 pm
I didn’t vote for either Deal or Reed, but I have to admit I am increasingly impressed with both; especially Kasim Reed:
Deal & Reed meet with Atlanta School Board
http://www.11alive.com/news/article/188796/3/DOWNTOWN-Deal-meets-with-Atlanta-School-Board
Lil' Barry Bailout
April 28th, 2011
12:05 pm
Democrats suck at running education. Obozo’s election is all the proof you need.
TaxPayer
April 28th, 2011
12:05 pm
What our schools need is less government meddling and the destruction of the teachers unions.
And what makes you so special is that you actually provide charts, etc., to back up your claims. hehehe
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
12:06 pm
Taxpayer….I can show charts where Union states are losing jobs and revenue. But I am sure you alreday knew that.
Mick
April 28th, 2011
12:06 pm
lbb
Gee, I thought you guys were all about personal responsiblity? The biggest obstacle to failing schools are disintersted parents and their children who are way too enamored of our entertainment culture. The education is out there, it is up to the students to access it and take responsiblity for their performance…
Jefferson
April 28th, 2011
12:08 pm
The same neocons that want a free ride to private schools would hide their parent’s assets to get them into a nursing home paid by medicare.
TaxPayer
April 28th, 2011
12:08 pm
I have yet to find a decent public school that does even a half-arse job of adequately teaching creationism. I ask you, given that, how am I supposed to have faith in our public school system.
GeeMac
April 28th, 2011
12:08 pm
UGA1999 – How much per student? Depends on the student. Gifted? Learning disabled? Non-English speaking? Non-verbal? Severely physically and mentally handicapped? Low SES? All of the above?
You can’t get an average because it depends on what type of students and how many, thus a variance from system to system and school to school. For an average student not receiving additional services and no free lunch, it is probably in the 8k/year range.
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
12:09 pm
Mick….Wow I almost agree with everything you said. However how can you tell a third grader that it is up to him/her to take responsiblity for their performance when all they are getting is an education to pass test and not prepare them for the real world.
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
April 28th, 2011
12:10 pm
Peadawg
April 28th, 2011
11:22 am
““bad test taker” is a euphemism for “moron”” – Are you a bad test taker?
Geeze…in no way shape or form does that comment make any sense.
Peadawg
April 28th, 2011
11:31 am
“what if the costs to attend a private school were the same as a public school.”
If my aunt had a d*k she’d be my uncle. Good luck finding a private school that costs the same as a public school. That scenario doesn’t even exist.
Damn Pea, whatever you’ve been eating for breakfast…. Pass me some of that sh*t!!!!!
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
12:10 pm
GeeMac….please see previous posts about the actual number. It is there and it is verified. Shocking but true.
TaxPayer
April 28th, 2011
12:11 pm
I can show charts where Union states are losing jobs and revenue.
Georgia’s unemployment rate is higher than the national average.
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
12:12 pm
GeeMac….but hey just for a minute lets use your $8k number. Would you be in favor of the government supplying each family with a voucher for $666 ($8k/12) each month that they could use on a private school if they wish?
Finn McCool
April 28th, 2011
12:14 pm
Government education is basically a monopoly.
Conservatives DO NOT LIKE TO WORK! Why do you think they are always howling for a handout in the form of tax breaks?
Lazy, no good welfare kings. That’s why they howl about poor people getting welfare – the welfare pool is finite and they are competing for the same funds !
Hundreds of thousands of kids get a good education every year, but there are problems — so let’s throw the baby out with the bath water.
The same conservative mantra on anything that’s “hard” or “needs work”.
Medicare has problems but millions of seniors are alive today and in good health because of it – so let’s throw the baby out with the bath water.
Social Security has problems but millions of seniors are able to live above the poverty line because of it. Ah hell, it has problems, let’s throw the baby out with the bath water.
See the pattern? Liberals know things aren’t perfect but are willing to work to fix them. Conservatives see the problems and want nothing to do with the hard work that is involved in fixing it.
No, they would rather gut it and mull over a plan for a decade or two. Conservatives DO NOT LIKE TO WORK!
Mick
April 28th, 2011
12:18 pm
uga
Third grade education is very different than high school, that is where the burden shifts more to the student. In third grade, parents are the key to making sure that their children are learning and making sure that the teacher is on task. State guidelines or curriculums for elementary school progression are mostly non-contoversial, however, high stakes testing for a third grader seems to be a bit unfair. I know I didn’t have the equivalent of a board exam in third grade, sister rose knew where I stood…
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
12:18 pm
Finn….you really should research the demographics regarding the right versus the left when you say that conservatives dont like to work. You guys just throw up lies and hope the stick.
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
12:20 pm
Mick….again I am not totally disagreeing with you. I am just for options. If an education costs $1 for a public education and it costs $1 for a private education (hypothetical of course). I do not see why the left is fighting the voucher program. Competition and high education is better for us all.
Paulo977
April 28th, 2011
12:22 pm
CUT THE CRAP ABOUT STANDARDIZED TESTING AND HOW IT REVEALS ACADEMIC EXCELLENCE…
http://www.alfiekohn.org/teaching/edweek/staiv.htm
Mick
April 28th, 2011
12:25 pm
uga
I don’t want my tax money to go to a christian, muslim or hebrew school nor some fly by night charter scam..enough said…
Rightwing Troll
April 28th, 2011
12:25 pm
“Democrats suck at running education.”
At least they try, as opposed to Science and knowledge hating Flat Earthers like Tea Tards…
Finn McCool
April 28th, 2011
12:25 pm
Government education is basically a monopoly
Finn >> Bangs head on desk
Umm, yeah, it’s a government institution. There is only supposed to be one and the word monopoly doesn’t really apply, does it???
You want two FBI’s? How about two EPA’s? You want a couple of Federal Reserve’s?
Where do these people come from?
Fly-On-The-Wall
April 28th, 2011
12:25 pm
I have to really wonder if schools are failing as bad as Republicans say they are or is this another of their usual tactics of – ‘if I say it enought times then that makes it true’. ?? I know some schools do have problems but can that be applied across the board as many conservatives do?
Finn McCool
April 28th, 2011
12:27 pm
No, UGA, it’s always the conservatives who move in and take over this blog between 8am and 6pm.
The liberals are working.
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
12:28 pm
“please see previous posts about the actual number. It is there and it is verified”
now, granted, I had to step away for a few, so I may have missed it …
did you post a link that backed up your $25K/yr stat?
RB from Gwinnett
April 28th, 2011
12:28 pm
My child took the CRCT’s this week. I told the kid to walk into class and tell the teacher it would cost $50 for the kid to ace it. The test is a joke and the kid doesn’t benefit in any way by doing better on it. The teacher, however, has her whole career riding on that score. As does the school administration. So the get all the kids worked up over these tests so the school looks good and the kids never even see their own scores.
Maybe I should have made it $100…
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
12:29 pm
Finn – 12:25 – education is a monopoly but evidently defense isn’t
oy.
AmVet
April 28th, 2011
12:29 pm
Afternoon, Bookmaniacs.
Don’t have much to add to this topic, other than, please stay awake during high school or you may end up thinking that the Garden of Eden was a fact and climate change is a myth.
“A word to the wise ain’t necessary – it’s the stupid ones who need the advice.” – Bill Cosby
“Electricity is really just organized lightning.” – George Carlin
“I always wanted to be somebody, but now I realize I should have been more specific.” – Lily Tomlin
larry
April 28th, 2011
12:29 pm
I don’t want my tax money to go to a christian, muslim or hebrew school nor some fly by night charter scam..enough said…
Agreed, plus what about rural areas that do not have private schools. The closest private school to me is almost an hour away.
Finn McCool
April 28th, 2011
12:30 pm
I have to really wonder if schools are failing as bad as Republicans say they are or is this another of their usual tactics of dismantling something and then giving themselves tax cuts.
Fly-On-The-Wall
April 28th, 2011
12:30 pm
UGA1999 – the reason people question your hypothetical case is that if you are going to spend taxpayer money on anything then shouldn’t you be required to measure how efficient those funds are being spent? People want to see public schools measured, why shouldn’t a school that receives vouchers (tax money) also have the same measures applied?
The big phrase at my company is: You can’t change what you don’t measure. If a private school receiving vouchers isn’t measured then how can you be certain they are meeting the standards of educating our youth? How could anyone compare them to another private or public school in an apples-to-apples test?
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
12:31 pm
as for tuition at St. Pius –
Tuition: $11,100
Annual Re-enrollment Fee (non-refundable): $200
Textbook (approximate range): $300-$500
Uniforms (approximately): $150
At the time of acceptance, a $1000 non-refundable deposit is due. $800 of this deposit will be applied towards your tuition. The balance of the tuition can be paid in full or monthly (FACTS Management Company). The FACTS form must be completed through the St. Pius X Business Office.
(from their website)
oh, yeah – a $3000 voucher is gonna do wonders
Finn McCool
April 28th, 2011
12:32 pm
The test is a joke and the kid doesn’t benefit in any way by doing better on it.
So was putting it in place along with NoChildLeftBehind and then not funding it – “oh, no, we got to give ourselves some tax breaks – dontcha know!”
Finn McCool
April 28th, 2011
12:34 pm
Oh, yeah, US, I want competeing armies in the USA.
Can I have one named “McCool Marines”??
Left wing management
April 28th, 2011
12:35 pm
LBB: “Democrats suck at running education”
Odd comment. So you’re conceding that Republicans are completely leaving the running of education to Democrats?
Mary Elizabeth
April 28th, 2011
12:35 pm
Thank you very much for this revealing column, today, Jay. I have not read all of the comments but I do want to add these thoughts. Thanks.
There has been a systematic, political effort, for 30 years, by extreme Rightwing ideologues not only to dismantle public schools, but to dismantle – in an out of proportion way – the public arena, overall, for the private market.
Please take a few minutes to view the video, below, which will give details that support my statement above. The Koch Brothers have not been the only leaders in this effort but they have been two. As the video explains, “David Koch ran for VP on the Libertarian ticket for U.S. President/V.P. in 1980 with the platform of:
(1) eliminating corporate taxes
(2) abolishing Social Security
(3) getting rid of public schools.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=11H4M-PqAWM
I have previously given reasons for the public to support public schools and I do not support vouchers, for every student, because ultimately that effort would deplete public school resources and create a more divided class system than we presently have. The nation would end up with the very poorest children in public schools. Public monies should be used to support and make better public schools; public monies should not be used as tuition for private schools for those who are already fairly well off financially. The poor cannot afford private schools even with vouchers.
When I was in my mid thirties, I tutored my twin nephews, who were 8, because they were behind in public schools in reading due to premature births and pneumonia for half of kindergarten. They improved a half year in our one week’s summer tutorial together. I asked my brother to take them out of the private church school they had been in that summer and let me help ( I was a certified public school reading specialist). The private school did not have a clue what they were doing in any meaningful way. That fall my nephews went back to public school and graduated H.S. with their peers. They are now college graduates with families of their own. Not all private schools are the equivalent of Marist or Westminster. In fact, most are not, and they should all be held accountable just as public schools are.
Mainly, I want to alert readers to wake up to a national movement to dismantle the public arena. This movement has also heavily infiltered white, Southern conversative churches. Franklin Graham, the son of Billy Graham, was seen this past week on national TV programs almost giving the nod for president to Donald Trump. These particular church goers will not vote against the thinking of their church leaders for fear of losing their support groups and – in the thinking of some – fear of voting against God, Himself. Generallly speaking, they are somehow afraid to think for themselves in political ways because of a generalized fear of doing so. So, they are often vote against their own best interests.
Public schools teach children not for profit. They are not perfect, but they are better than using kids for profit in the private market, which will happen in some cases, if private markets take over the schools. Public servants, who wish to help others, as I did, are the best answer for education. Improve the public schools; don’t dismantle them for private schools.
Left wing management
April 28th, 2011
12:36 pm
LBB:
In other words, you’re conceding that the administration of education is a PURELY partisan affair. Very odd. Since when did we decide that? Last I heard we all had an interest in seeing that the education system succeeds. Did something change?
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
12:37 pm
Finn – McCool Marines sound like they should be wearing tie-die uniforms and round john lennon sunglasses
USMC
April 28th, 2011
12:38 pm
I hate to say it, but I like this move.
Push for Pentagon cuts tops Panetta’s agenda:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/U/US_PENTAGON_PANETTAS_CHALLENGE?SITE=AP&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2011-04-28-03-07-28
Scooter (The Original)
April 28th, 2011
12:39 pm
I agree on the testing Jay and that was what attracted to me to NCLB. But, I feel you are trying to lump all school choice advocates in with the actions of a panel in Pennsylvania. Don’t get me wrong, I would expect nothing better from you.
D.C.’s schools weren’t at the top of national performance and their testing improved under their school choice program. Well at least until the Democrat controlled government defunded the program and the teacher’s unions got rid of the mayor.
USMC
April 28th, 2011
12:40 pm
“Can I have one named “McCool Marines”??”
Well, Finn, we do have McHale’s Navy… so I guess we can go ahead and grant your wish.
Carry on Marine:-)
AmVet
April 28th, 2011
12:41 pm
LBB: “Democrats suck at running education”
Which explains why dead red states all dominate the very top of any educational ranking list in this country.
Just more Republispeak – truth are lies, up is down and losing is winning…