Why voucher advocates are allergic to standardized tests
In Pennsylvania, Republican legislators are pushing through a school vouchers bill that would divert increasingly scarce state education dollars to private and parochial schools. The move itself is controversial, but at the moment I’d like to focus on one particular aspect of the debate, as reported by the Hazleton Standard Speaker:
“The panel defeated an amendment by Sen. John Blake, D-22, Archbald, to have choice students who attend a private or parochial school take the Pennsylvania State Standardized Assessment given periodically in public schools. That way there would be an equitable standard to measure academic performance, he added.”
Now why would school-choice advocates reject a proposal to have voucher recipients take the same test as their public-school peers? That seems peculiar. If a private school accepts money from the state, it ought to at least be willing to demonstrate that taxpayers are getting value out of that investment, right? If you want to be good stewards of public money, you need some means of measuring performance.
In addition, since the whole idea behind school choice is, well, choice, it would seem essential to give students in public and private schools the same test, so that parents can try to compare outcomes.
Up in Wisconsin — where public-school students regularly rank among the highest in the nation on the SAT and ACT, Gov. Scott Walker is also proposing to broaden an existing voucher program, as the AP reports:
“Walker is proposing expanding the voucher program that currently is only available to low-income students in Milwaukee. He wants to expand the program to all of Milwaukee County and phase out the low-income qualifying ceiling.
He also wants to do away with a requirement that voucher students take the same statewide achievement tests as students in public schools.”
Hmmm. There it is again: Walker wants to abolish a requirement that schools accepting taxpayer vouchers agree to test its students just as public schools do. And these are not isolated incidents. Voucher advocates often oppose any requirement to subject voucher recipients to standardized testing.
The Milwaukee voucher program, for example, has been in existence since 1990, but the testing requirement was added only in 2006, and even then over the protest of Republican legislators. And now that they and Walker have regained power, they want that provision gone. The question is why.
The editorial board of the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel solves the mystery:
“Last week, scores released by the state Department of Public Instruction showed that students in Milwaukee’s school choice program performed worse than or about the same as students in Milwaukee Public Schools in math and reading.
A day later, researchers at the University of Arkansas who have been tracking MPS and voucher students since 2005-’06 found that the two are performing roughly the same.”
Oh …. now it makes sense. They don’t want to mandate testing because that testing has demonstrated that students using vouchers are performing no better and perhaps worse than their public-school counterparts.
Again, the data go back only to 2005-2006 because until then, proponents of vouchers in Wisconsin had succeeded in blocking testing of students who used the program. That changed only after a major scandal erupted involving largely unregulated private schools.
As the Christian Science Monitor reported at the time:
“In one of the worst instances, a convicted rapist opened a school, which has since shut down. Reporters from the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel tried to visit all 115 schools then in the program last year, and found a mixed bag. Nine schools refused to let reporters in, and the paper cited “10 to 15 others where … the overall operation appeared alarming when it came to the basic matter of educating children.”
One school was opened by a woman who said she had a vision from God to start a school, and whose only educational background was as a teacher’s aide. Others had few books or signs of a coherent curriculum. Yet they’ve been able to enroll students.”
And here’s an AP report on Milwaukee voucher schools from that same time frame:
“The schools are required to report virtually nothing about their methods to the state, or to track their students’ performance. Proponents say that frees the schools from onerous bureaucracy. But some say the lack of oversight makes them a prime target for abuse.
At the Mandella Academy for Science and Math, school officials admitted signing up more than 200 students who never showed and then cashing $330,000 in state-issued tuition checks, which the principal used to buy, among other things, Mercedes-Benzes for himself and the assistant principal.
Meanwhile, Alex’s Academics of Excellence received $2.8 million in voucher money over three years before the Milwaukee Journal Sentinel reported that the school’s founder, James A. Mitchell, served nearly a decade in prison for a 1971 rape. Unlike their counterparts at public schools, principals and teachers at private schools do not have to undergo criminal background checks.”
Theoretically, the marvels of the free market were supposed to run places such as “Alex’s Academics of Excellence” out of business. Instead, government was forced to intervene, because what happens in theory and what happens in reality are often two different things. But in Pennsylvania and Wisconsin, loyalty to theory is once again carrying the day.
– Jay Bookman
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470 comments Add your comment
Left wing management
April 28th, 2011
10:23 am
Adam: “LWM: maybe he would argue that, but even he would agree that is belief, not science.”
That’s right, he would have. But he also held that science is fundamentally a matter of belief, too. Hence the prominence of DOUBT which he introduces into Western thought. Cogito ergo sum. Haunting the modern scientific thinker at every step is the specter of radical doubt, in other words.
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
10:24 am
Southern….so when the left wants to throw money to Welfare you are fine with it. But when we want to spend money to educate our children for a brighter future, you are against it…..I get it now……hahahah
(ir)Rational
April 28th, 2011
10:25 am
I’m almost, but not really at all, sorry that I offended you by coming to a political blog to discuss politics. Crazy.
(ir)Rational
April 28th, 2011
10:28 am
So Co – How are vouchers welfare? If I choose to take the tax money I put into the system to take my child (who thankfully doesn’t exist) and move him to a private school that can educate him better than the local government school how is it welfare? And even so, when did the liberals become against welfare? But the point remains, it is the money that was taken from me, being given back to me to educate my child in the way that I find best for him.
Paul
April 28th, 2011
10:28 am
I’ve asked the same questions here in Texas to advocates of vouchers and home schooling. “How can you make the claims it’s better when those kids are exempted from the Texas standardized tests?” It’s usually a short discussion.
Jay
Thanks for providing the performance data in Wisconsin. It’ll make a great follow-up point.
BTW, I haven’t noticed any school choice/voucher/home schooling ‘our way is better than public schools’ make their case yet. Am I missing something?
RW-(the original)
Response to your ‘jerk’ assertion downstairs. No follow-up necessary.
jm
April 28th, 2011
10:28 am
St. Simons – looks like I may be headed to FL island time…. (possible new job in S. FL in the energy industry -oy)
Peadawg
April 28th, 2011
10:29 am
“I’m almost, but not really at all, sorry that I offended you by coming to a political blog to discuss politics. Crazy.”
I’m not offended at all. If you don’t like what’s discussed on here please find another blog.
(ir)Rational
April 28th, 2011
10:30 am
Has anyone answered the questions of whether standardized tests are actually a good way to measure a student’s progress? If so, I’ll go back and read it, but I missed it.
jm
April 28th, 2011
10:31 am
sfd 10:22
Partnership for the Assessment of Readiness for College and Careers (PARCC)
http://www.achieve.org/PARCC
USMC
April 28th, 2011
10:31 am
Yeah, well the Atlanta Public Schools are an utter failure, so the current system is certainly not working, regardless of how much money you throw them.
Did anyone catch this clip of Joe Biden suggesting the Impeachment of the President?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5iFeWo7SqnA
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
April 28th, 2011
10:32 am
so when the left wants to throw money to Welfare you are fine with it. But when we want to spend money to educate our children for a brighter future, you are against it…..I get it now……hahahah
And just like a UGA grad (or non-grad), you can’t read for comprehension.
#1 I never said anything about the left. Don’t ASSume or put words in my mouth. It only reveals exactly what you are.
#2 I never said anything about being pro-welfare. Don’t ASSume or put words in my mouth. It only reveals exactly what you are.
#3 How can you fix your mouth (fingers) to even say “we want to spend money to educate” when there’s been more cutting of the education budget in GA than all the cutting in all the Friday the 13th and Nightmare on Elm Street movie series combined?
**the things that qualify as conservative logic nowadays….
jm
April 28th, 2011
10:32 am
(ir)Rational – standardized tests are good. They’re not the only metric, but they’re a big and important one.
Peadawg
April 28th, 2011
10:33 am
“How are vouchers welfare?….But the point remains, it is the money that was taken from me, being given back to me to educate my child in the way that I find best for him.”
Vouchers could be seen as welfare b/c since you and I can’t dictate where our taxes go, it is also money that was taken from someone else and given to you by the government.
Jonas
April 28th, 2011
10:33 am
When an article brings us specific incidences such as two charter schools were really poorly run the reader knows the article is worthless. Kind of like I got sick on Chinese food so all Chinese food is bad. Or, Joe the plumber is somehow a statistical representation of all hard working middle income folks. Did Jay miss the part about the daily AJC investigation into local public schools?
The best job to have when there is absolutely no local or national leadership is a blog writer. We got the birth certificate but we all await the leadership.
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
10:34 am
Southern….you proved my point….THANK YOU!
GeeMac
April 28th, 2011
10:34 am
“BTW, I haven’t noticed any school choice/voucher/home schooling ‘our way is better than public schools’ make their case yet. Am I missing something?”
Paul, head on over to Get Schooled and you will find plenty of that ilk.
(Ir) – I agree with you. The religious debate is off topic, a tactic many of my high school students employ when they don’t know how to contribute to the discussion at hand.
stands for decibels
April 28th, 2011
10:34 am
#1 Move to a better school district
but remember, if in order to do that, you had to rely upon a no-interest variable-rate loan to move into a house in one of those districts for a couple of years, on the promise that its value would increase and allow you to re-fi (or at worst, declare bankruptcy and walk away, figuring at least your kid got a couple of years of a better education)?
well, you caused the Great Recession. Or so I’m told, here, most every day.
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
April 28th, 2011
10:34 am
(ir)Rational
How are vouchers welfare?
The money going into the school system isn’t just YOUR money. You are not the only person paying taxes to fund the school system. If you pay $2000 in property taxes and get a $7000 voucher, where does the other $5k come from? Kevin the goat doesn’t just sh*t that stuff out in real life you know….
And even so, when did the liberals become against welfare?
See #1 and #2 to UGA above…
Peadawg
April 28th, 2011
10:35 am
“Has anyone answered the questions of whether standardized tests are actually a good way to measure a student’s progress?”
I’ll say no. Standardized test are a good way to see if students are good at taking a lot of tests.
jm
April 28th, 2011
10:35 am
“Why voucher advocates are allergic to standardized tests”
I’m a voucher advocate. I guess I have natural immunity.
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
10:35 am
UGA – you seem to forget, we already ARE paying for your children to be educated.
if you want them to have a PRIVATE education, then you need to pony up the money, yourself
jt-A statist is a man with two perfectly strong legs,however, relies on Uncle Sam on directions and permission for use-JT
April 28th, 2011
10:35 am
If taxes,(stolen money) is diverted to “private” schools(vouchers)………then the “private” school……is no longer “private”.
TRUE private schools and home schools are thriving in America today, and will ultimently bring our youth and future out of an otherwise dark ,indoctrinated , and evil government morass.
The IS a shining city. And it doesn’t allow any stolen tax money to pervert a family or their children’s education.
Dave R.
April 28th, 2011
10:36 am
If you want government money, you have to take the government yoke that goes along with it.
As we used to say growing up, “Tough noogies”.
St Simons - we're on Island time
April 28th, 2011
10:36 am
On the topic of the thread:
“I don’t want to go to school around ‘those people’ ”
“I want you to give the state’s tax money back to me so I can go somewhere else”
“and I want to cut the remaining money for those people’s public education”
“And I don’t want to be held accountable with testing for doing this”
Well, I bet you do. This is shameful. But you have to have shame for this to bother you.
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
April 28th, 2011
10:36 am
UGA: Southern….you proved my point….THANK YOU!
If you were an ice pick, you still wouldn’t have a point.
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
10:36 am
USIN….yes we are paying for public schools to fail!
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
April 28th, 2011
10:36 am
Peadawg @ 10:33
Exactly!!
RW-(the original)
April 28th, 2011
10:37 am
Paul,
You wouldn’t have put the caveat at the bottom of your original comment if you didn’t realize you were wandering off into “jerk” territory and please don’t come to a different thread and pretend I was calling you names elsewhere. No follow-up necessary.
jm
April 28th, 2011
10:37 am
SoCo 10:34 – achooo. I am allergic to discussions of my property taxes….. gives me an awful headache.
TaxPayer
April 28th, 2011
10:38 am
The world was flat until God willed it to be round.
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
April 28th, 2011
10:39 am
jm
Imagine how I feel. I’ve been paying for 8 years. It will be another 4 before my child sets foot in a public school building.
St Simons - we're on Island time
April 28th, 2011
10:40 am
jm – good for you! Surfs up dude!
Your blood pressure will drop 50 points after you pass Hartsfield on I-75 S
RW-(the original)
April 28th, 2011
10:40 am
If you were an ice pick, you still wouldn’t have a point.
Dude!!! I had an icepick shoved clean through my leg in high school and you just made the pain rush right back through that same path all these many years later.
/ I better get to work. These blogs are dangerous this morning
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
10:40 am
“If you want government money, you have to take the government yoke that goes along with it.”
which is why my brother-man was always against vouchers when my nephews were in school
jm
April 28th, 2011
10:41 am
SoCo 10:39 – FYI, the steadily increasing homestead exemption essentially creates a progressive property tax code. Most people don’t pay that much in property taxes. And some pay a lot. Generally like the income tax.
jm
April 28th, 2011
10:41 am
St. Simons – there is excellent surfing in the area….
jt-A statist is a man with two perfectly strong legs,however, relies on Uncle Sam on directions and permission for use-JT
April 28th, 2011
10:41 am
I mean………………………
what kind of moran would worry about a “test” administered by the “state”.
The state is not interested in knowledge.
The state is only interested in obedience.
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
10:41 am
UGA – not all public schools are failing – some are actually thriving and producing excellent students
either way, the fact remains – I already AM paying for your child to be educated. if you’re not happy with what’s available to them, then your dime needs to pay for something different, not mine.
md
April 28th, 2011
10:41 am
The system already has vouchers…….and it does favor those that tend to be more well off. It’s called relocating……………..and yes, choices again do come into play.
Left wing management
April 28th, 2011
10:43 am
Completely off topic here, pertains to yesterday’s topic, but I can’t resist pointing this out.
He’s failing again. Obama is once again failing to win the debate on a major policy issue with gigantic consequences for the nation.
Churchill was wrong when he said the best argument against Democracy is a 5 minute conversation with the average voter. The best proof of it is right here :
Poll Shows Obama Is Losing the Debt Ceiling Debate
Despite warnings of disaster, Americans oppose raising the debt ceiling by a margin of more than 2 to 1.
http://www.usnews.com/opinion/blogs/peter-roff/2011/04/27/poll-shows-obama-is-losing-the-debt-ceiling-debate
http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-503544_162-20056258-503544.html
(ir)Rational
April 28th, 2011
10:43 am
So Co – I wasn’t directing the welfare and liberals comment just at you, so maybe you shouldn’t ASSuME things either. You know, cause it makes stuff out of you and me. But yeah, in general liberals are typically advocates for welfare. And also in general, liberals are against school choice of any kind, and vouchers in particular.
And to address the rest of your comment – I’m not saying the voucher should be more than what I pay in taxes, but the money I give to (or have forcibly taken from me by) the government should follow my (non-existent) child to whichever school I feel could best suit his needs.
Also – love the comment to UGA. I’ll have to use that if you don’t mind.
jm
April 28th, 2011
10:44 am
“There are no more arbiters of truth,” said former White House press secretary Robert Gibbs. “So whatever you can prove factually, somebody else can find something else and point to it with enough ferocity to get people to believe it. We’ve crossed some Rubicon into the unknown.”
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0411/53856.html#ixzz1KpTKfAgK
ragnar danneskjold
April 28th, 2011
10:44 am
Good morning all. A leftist perspective of “accountability” is to have government administer tests proving that the teacher is teaching what the government thinks ought to be taught.
A conservative knows that “accountability” is allowing each individual to make decisions and accept the consequences of that decision.
The waste – both academic and financial – in our government schools is appalling. That leftists continue to believe that all teaching should conform to government standards is beyond ridicule.
jm
April 28th, 2011
10:45 am
USinUK 10:41 – if you’re paying property taxes on an empty house in the US, you need a realtor…. or you’ve got deep pockets.
Peadawg
April 28th, 2011
10:46 am
“but the money I give to (or have forcibly taken from me by) the government should follow my (non-existent) child to whichever school I feel could best suit his needs.”
Please let us know how you’re able to dictate where your tax money goes. I’m sure everyone here would interested how you’re able to do that.
md
April 28th, 2011
10:46 am
“Despite warnings of disaster, Americans oppose raising the debt ceiling by a margin of more than 2 to 1. ”
I think the masses are acknowledging a problem, and don’t necessarily understand all the components of said problem.
While the misfits understand there is a problem, yet think the masses are fooled when they shave off a measly 40 billion……………..
Gordon
April 28th, 2011
10:48 am
“either way, the fact remains – I already AM paying for your child to be educated. if you’re not happy with what’s available to them, then your dime needs to pay for something different, not mine.”
The danger of a monopoly…
If what is being provided isn’t good enough, that’s your problem. You still have to pay for it, so it doesn’t really matter to me if you are satisfied with the product or not. Which is why we have a mediocre product…
Mick
April 28th, 2011
10:48 am
I went to catholic school in my youth – no vouchers back then and nobody was complaining about it. Today, these repubs want to destroy the american way of life I used to know, unions, public schools, medicare, social security, but tax cuts for the millionaires and billonaires are championed by the wannabes. Who are they going to blame when the middle class finally disintegrates? Democrats.
(ir)Rational
April 28th, 2011
10:49 am
Did I say that I did that Peadawg? I’m pretty sure that is the point of the voucher system, and the way that most government ran schools in Europe treat education money. The money follows the child. The child SHOULDN’T be forced to follow the money.
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
10:50 am
Usin….I agree with you somewhat and on the otherhand I dont. See here is what WILL happen under your theory.
The “Evil Rich” will be the only ones that will be able to afford a better education through private institutions. Hince the wealthy kids will get the better educations which will allow them to attain higher paying jobs. Thus the gap grows between the wealthy and poverty.
This means that the left will be screaming for more money to be funneled to the lower class through our tax dollars. Thus the cycle continues.
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
10:50 am
“A leftist perspective of “accountability” is to have government administer tests proving that the teacher is teaching what the government thinks ought to be taught.”
hrm.
what’s the phrase I’m trying to think of? Mo Mild Left Mehind?
Slow Slild Left Sleehind?
No, I’ve got it – NO CHILD LEFT BEHIND … that’s right … a Republican initiative whose foundation is standardized testing …
funny, that
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
April 28th, 2011
10:50 am
RW
My bad..
jm
I need to move to one of those pay less areas. As small as my exemption was, I did miss it when Sonny took it away. Oh well, less subsidy for me means more for Kia.
Finn McCool
April 28th, 2011
10:50 am
This is a PERFECT example of why voting Republican is not in your best interest if you are not wealthy. Wealthy kids using tax-payer funding to go to private schools? Legislating the use of public funds to benefit their kids because they don’t want to open their checkbooks.
Ohhhh, give those wealthy people another tax break, fer cryin’ out loud. Times is tuff for da Man.
Middle class and working class Republican voters are the biggest bunch a’ pansyies this nation has ever seen.
(ir)Rational
April 28th, 2011
10:50 am
Great point Gordon.
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
10:51 am
Gordon – if you think education is a monopoly, you really need to go back and reread the definition
Paul
April 28th, 2011
10:51 am
RW-(the original)
I think I see your point. Calling out those who have ‘jerk’ views of life is ‘wandering into ‘jerk territory.”
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
10:52 am
jm – who says it’s empty?
USMC
April 28th, 2011
10:52 am
“Poll Shows Obama Is Losing the Debt Ceiling Debate”
I suppose his “I was against it before I was for it” lends for a weak stance.
Obama Concedes Senate Vote Against Raising Debt Limit Was ‘Political’
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PjnN_J6wPmk
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
10:52 am
Finn…..hahahaha that is hilarious…..you are right lets take funding away from the middle and lower class to go to private schools so that the only ones that can afford to go the private schools are the wealthy. Ready my previous post as well.
You are cutting off your nose to spite your face and you dont even know it.
HILARIOUS!
Normal
April 28th, 2011
10:52 am
The “Right” doesn’t want education for the masses. They want the masses to wear gray jumpsuits and work caps. They want us to go to our 2.00 an hour job for 12 hours a day. They want us to bow and swear fealty to their Corporate Gods. That way, they wouldn’t need China any more. Chairman’s Koch will be proud…
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
April 28th, 2011
10:53 am
(ir)Rational
No problem. I read your comment out of context then. My appologies. You can use that comment. I’ve applied for the trademark, but haven’t gotten an approval yet. Also, I can see your point on the voucher, but I don’t think the government should be involved in that at all.
Peadawg
April 28th, 2011
10:53 am
“Did I say that I did that Peadawg?”
No but you asked how do vouchers = welfare. Unless you can dictate where your tax dollars go(which you can’t) then it IS another form of welfare.
md
April 28th, 2011
10:53 am
“Oh well, less subsidy for me means more for Kia.”
Yep, it would be much better if kia was in MS or LA or ……..
Mick
April 28th, 2011
10:54 am
ragnar@10:44
You have it completely backwards as usual, the repubs and bush in particular, are the ones that have pushed the testing regime and state curriculum guidelines. Before jeb and george, most states were satisfied to use the SAT, a reliable and valid test. Now, we have testing companies for profit, whose tests are not valid and reliable because they change them year after year…
(ir)Rational
April 28th, 2011
10:54 am
USinUK – Government education is basically a monopoly. There is no real accountability, no real competition, or at least what is there isn’t competing for the same money, and I have no choice but to spend my money there. Seems like a monopoly to me. Now, I do recognize that there are other types of schools out there, but without a voucher system or school choice system of some kind, where my money follows my child, then there is no incentive for the government school to better itself.
Paul
April 28th, 2011
10:54 am
At the risk of wandering back into jerk territory,
I realize a few of our “FAIR” folks aren’t here (yet), but if they are going to be consistent in ‘the few are supporting the many with taxes and they don’t get nearly the return on their stolen money that the nonincometaxpayers get’
It seems to me, applying their philosophy to this education thing, if they have, say three kids, shouldn’t they pay three times the tax rate to support children as a person with one kid, and a person with no kids pays nada?
Seems fair/equitable, after all -
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
10:55 am
UGA – just in case no one else points this out to you, your comment to p’dawg and your 10:50 positively REEK of “entitlement”
everyone is entitled to an education – not everyone is entitled to go to a private school
John Birch
April 28th, 2011
10:55 am
Tax dollars can go whereever the peeps or their elected reps want them to go. Are vouchers the best use of tax dollars? Probably not, but they are a lot better than the billions we are wasting in Obama’s war in that quagmire, Afghanistan.
RGB
April 28th, 2011
10:55 am
I read your piece but nowhere did I find where you offered the explanation(s) given by those opposed to standardized testing.
I suppose it could be that they just don’t want to be measured or assessed (similar to public school teachers who don’t want their performance tested), or it could be that they have a valid reason and you just don’t want to report it. No reasonable voucher proponent wants rapists running schools or wants miscreants unfairly benefiting from taxpayer dollars. Your piece suggests that the creeps you describe typify voucher proponents. I’ll be that’s just not true.
If I wrote a column I would minimally offer to my readers the reason why these folks resist testing. Then, if I disagreed with the reason, I would explain why. You failed to do this. That makes me reflexively want to disagree with you because I think you are hiding something exculpatory.
In summary, you’ve done another incomplete job. And that is my assessment of your work.
RGB
April 28th, 2011
10:58 am
“bet”
Left wing management
April 28th, 2011
10:58 am
Wow, thanks for the link to the Robert Gibbs.comment, jm. That’s exactly what I’ve been saying here the last couple of days. What we’re seeing is literally a hollowing out, undermining of symbolic authority as such, which means the increasing inability to close a debate through reference to a generally accepted authority (in the case of the birther spectacle, the lack of trust in basic official documentation). Which signals a very dangerous cultural shift. So Gibbs is exactly right.
jm
April 28th, 2011
10:58 am
USinUK 10:52 – ah. then who’s paying the taxes? The renter or the owner?….. that funny fungible money problem….
md
April 28th, 2011
10:59 am
“It seems to me, applying their philosophy to this education thing, if they have, say three kids, shouldn’t they pay three times the tax rate to support children as a person with one kid, and a person with no kids pays nada?”
Sounds like a plan………after all, we do choose how many kids we have……….works for me.
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
10:59 am
(ir) – ‘There is no real accountability, no real competition, or at least what is there isn’t competing for the same money, and I have no choice but to spend my money there.’
same thing could be said of our military.
as far as accountability – I don’t think anyone is arguing that there shouldn’t be accountability / better accountability, etc — how can that be done without testing?
carlosgvv
April 28th, 2011
10:59 am
Pedawg
So you agree that God can neither be proved or disproved. And your decision is to proceed full speed ahead with the blind faith of an eight year old and believe there really is a “God of love” who is looking out for you. You are unable to see this makes as much sense as believing in Santa Claus and The Tooth Fairy. And you wonder why I call you delusional?
jm
April 28th, 2011
11:00 am
SoCo 10:50 – just live in a cheap house. We pay 300% more in property taxes on our current house as we did on my wife’s old house, even though it’s only worth 50% more
retired early
April 28th, 2011
11:01 am
The GOP has 3 longterm goals and they represent the 3 pillars of the Liberal Left. Crush labor unions including civil servants, Defund the network of social programs including Social Security, Medicare and regulatory arms of government like the EPA… and eliminate the Public School system.
The way they accomplish their goals is to cut taxes for the wealthy, thus rewarding their loyalty and financial backing…”starving the beast”. Then they use the budget deficit to justify their attempts to “defund” the programs they target.
When Bush began his 2rd term, he immediately announced his desire to “privatize” SS. Now, what does Ryans Budget attempt to do…change Medicare to a “voucher” program.
The GOP is nothing but the talking head for business. They do “nothing” for the individuals.
Let me quote a couple of well respected Republicans.
Grover Norquest Quote about Stalin…”First, we want to remove liberal personnel from the political process. Then we want to capture those positions of power and influence for conservatives. Stalin taught the importance of this principle. He was running the personnel department, while Trotsky was out fighting the White Army. When push came to shove for control of the Soviet Union, Stalin won. His people were in place and Trotsky’s were not…With this principle in mind, conservatives must do all they can to make sure they get jobs in Washington”.
Jerry Faldwell quote about “reaching for the pillars” speaking at the funeral of Larry McDonald who was Chairman of the John Birch Society….”People like us are reaching for the pillars of society. We have had enough…just like Sampson in the Bible…even if we have to die ourselves, we are bringing that temple down”.
We constantly read accusations that Liberals are Communist, Marxist, et. al. when in fact it is the Extreme Right that is borrowing the playbook from history’s ultimate hardliners, Stalin and Mao.
The GOP has never been friend of the common man…nor Democracy. The sooner the American people figure this out…the sooner we can take back our country for the good of us “all”…not just for their chosen few.
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
11:02 am
USIN….but you think everyone is entitled to healthcare and food right? Why limit education off that list?
carlosgvv
April 28th, 2011
11:03 am
(ir)rational – Adam
Didn’t anyone ever tell you that ignoring something that makes you uncomfortable will NOT make it go away?
TaxPayer
April 28th, 2011
11:04 am
So, basically, the Republicans are arguing for vouchers because that will give parents the option to send their children to private schools that will not provide their children with a better education, will cost more than public school, and could even be run by criminals including rapists, stalkers, etc.
jm
April 28th, 2011
11:05 am
Reid is just not very bright.
He was proud of a housing bubble, and now he wants to win the solar power bubble race? Hmmm..
Harry Reid: Don’t let China beat us
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0411/53866.html
Peadawg
April 28th, 2011
11:05 am
““It seems to me, applying their philosophy to this education thing, if they have, say three kids, shouldn’t they pay three times the tax rate to support children as a person with one kid, and a person with no kids pays nada?”” – Great idea!
carlos, again, prove he doesn’t exist then we’ll talk about me being delusional. Me believing in something doesn’t make me delusional. As for your, “You are unable to see this makes as much sense as believing in Santa Claus and The Tooth Fairy.” There’s proof that Santa Claus and the Tooth Fairy don’t exist so that’s apples and oranges. Nice try though.
Lil' Barry Bailout
April 28th, 2011
11:06 am
Dollar drops after Bernanke remarks, lower GDP, higher unemployment claims.
———
Doesn’t matter to the Idiot Messiah, since his parasite base don’t have any dollars.
(ir)Rational
April 28th, 2011
11:07 am
USinUK – How does the testing provide accountability at all? As I pointed out in my earlier posts, all testing does is allow the teachers to make people think they’re doing a better job by only teaching the test. Add real competition to the schools and then we’ll see the school system improve. Also, incentive based pay for teachers, but don’t make the incentives be based solely off a standardized test, add in some other measure of how the students are doing. If you want it to be off the test, then compare the same student’s test this year to the one from last year. If they did remarkably better then the teacher must have done a good job by at least teaching them the test/to take the test better. But there needs to be some way to improve schools over what they are now. Obviously, throwing more money at them is not the solution. Maybe giving the teachers the incentive that if they don’t improve the money will go away will help?
Left wing management
April 28th, 2011
11:08 am
RGB: “If I wrote a column I would minimally offer to my readers the reason why these folks resist testing.”
But what if the people in question either 1) have no well articulated position as to why the oppose them, or 2) have such a position, but choose not to articulate it in public for strategic political reasons (namely, because it would reveal the radicalism of their position and thus provoke resistance)? In that case, the columnist has little choice but to simply point out the lack of an apparent position on an issue. So your comment reveals a fundamental misunderstanding of things on your part.
(ir)Rational
April 28th, 2011
11:09 am
carlos – what am I ignoring? Unless it is a debate on God/religion, it is nothing intentionally.
jm
April 28th, 2011
11:09 am
You know. Obama knew about the deficit ceiling when he came into office. Maybe he shoulda thought about that when coming to terms on budgets and taxes the last two years.
Peadawg
April 28th, 2011
11:10 am
” all testing does is allow the teachers to make people think they’re doing a better job by only teaching the test.”
Bingo was his name-o.
jm
April 28th, 2011
11:11 am
Reid is pathetic. Below, a voice of reason….
“Let me get this straight – after failing to even craft or pass a budget last year, now Senate Democrats, who won’t take up the president’s budget, are turning to what House Republicans drafted,” said Sen. Orrin Hatch, the top Republican on the Senate Finance Committee. “This is a sad testimony to how completely incapable they are of putting forward a credible and concrete plan to tackle our nation’s debt. If this is where Senate Democrats want to go, then we ought to have all the budget proposals voted on, including the ultra-left progressive caucus budget with its stratospheric tax hikes and severe defense cuts.”
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0411/53824_Page2.html#ixzz1KpZwmI6R
Adam
April 28th, 2011
11:11 am
Jonas: so education sucks all around? How is that an argument for vouchers?
Ragnar: its the accepting consequences part I notice many conservatives have a problem with…
jm
April 28th, 2011
11:12 am
Reid wants to propose the Ryan plan in the Senate. Don’t worry Dems, its just gamesmanship.
And a spokesman for Minority Leader Mitch McConnell was even more skeptical of Reid’s announcement Wednesday.
“They didn’t pass one last year with 60 Democrat Senators, so I guess it’s not a surprise that he’s relying on a House Republican to do the work for them,” said McConnell spokesman Don Stewart.
Reid did not specify an exact time line for when he plans to hold the vote on the Ryan budget, but noted that he has a lot to juggle on the Senate calendar, with a small business bill still pending, the Patriot Act needing to be renewed and several judicial confirmations remaining on the docket.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0411/53824_Page2.html#ixzz1KpaBzynK
Left wing management
April 28th, 2011
11:13 am
Doesn’t matter to the Idiot Messiah, since his parasite base don’t have any dollars.
Pfttt . ..
By the way, that means Goldman Sachs is the biggest parasite of all, right?
Lil' Barry Bailout
April 28th, 2011
11:14 am
If the test is testing what’s in the approved curriculum, then teachers damn well better be teaching to the test. Get a grip, test-o-phobes.
UGA1999
April 28th, 2011
11:14 am
Left wing….nice spin….always willing to run from the truth for a good spin….great job.
John Birch
April 28th, 2011
11:15 am
Taxpayer et al – I believe the AJC ran a piece just yesterday on a teaccher running nude through a public ELEMENTARY school. There have been several cases jus this year of public school molestations, statutory rapes etc. Devoiant behavior is probably more prevalent in public schools, a point Jay chose not to research or comment on, he just cites two examples in private schools.
TaxPayer
April 28th, 2011
11:17 am
including the ultra-left progressive caucus budget with its stratospheric tax hikes and severe defense cuts.”
hyperbolate – hyperventilated hyperbole, a typical con ploy to evoke an emotional irrational response in their less educated base.
Mighty Righty
April 28th, 2011
11:18 am
Seems to me a real test would be to compare test scores of students who used vouchers to transfer to new schools to their performance at their old school. This would be a real test to see if the change helped.
USinUK
April 28th, 2011
11:18 am
UGA – USIN….but you think everyone is entitled to healthcare and food right? Why limit education off that list?
what part of “everyone is entitled to an education” eludes you?
Peadawg
April 28th, 2011
11:18 am
“If the test is testing what’s in the approved curriculum, then teachers damn well better be teaching to the test. Get a grip, test-o-phobes.”
So what if the student understands the material and does the homework just fine, but is a bad test taker? What do the test prove then?
Lil' Barry Bailout
April 28th, 2011
11:18 am
I was referring to your Idiot Messiah’s parasite base. I said nothing of his fatcat base.
BTW, it’s looking like Wall Street is shifting their contributions away from the socialist-in-chief Obozo.