The ’situational conservatives’ in the Georgia GOP
Georgia Republicans like to tout themselves as true economic conservatives.
They’re not. Not by a long shot.
The core of economic conservatism, also known as laissez faire economics, is faith in a free market. That school of thought holds that if the laws of supply and demand are given free rein, they will distribute goods and services as efficiently and productively as possible.
Under such a theory, government is forbidden from intervening or picking winners; it can’t play favorites. Its role is to create a level playing field upon which individuals and businesses alike can compete, with the most efficient and productive reaping the biggest rewards.
Georgia Republicans do honor that approach in some ways. To individuals in need of help, they preach a sternly libertarian philosophy of “pull yourself up by your own bootstraps.” They distrust government programs to aid the unemployed or provide health care to those unable to afford it, and in some cases they seek to dismantle public education in favor of private alternatives. On issues as varied as tort reform and workers rights to consumer protection, they instinctively seek to remove government from any role as mediator between business and consumer and between business and employee.
You’re on your own, in other words. “Laissez faire” — leave it alone.
However, state Republicans are notably unwilling to demand that same degree of discipline and self-reliance from businesses and corporations looking for assistance.
Take, for example, the passage of House Bill 234 in the recent legislative session. Under provisions added to the bill at the last minute and rammed through the process without real public debate, the legislation sets up a system to subsidize certain new tourist attractions.
Under the bill, a new resort or theme park that wins state favor would use the taxing power of the state to collect sales and use tax from its customers, just as other businesses do. But in this case, the business would get to keep all or most of that “tax money.” (Technically, it comes in the form of a refund, but the effect is the same.)
Over a 10-year period, the business could collect and keep taxes amounting to 25 percent of its investment. In other words, the law makes Georgia taxpayers a 25 percent partner in the investment, but with no ownership rights and no profit participation.
Why should government play such a role? As legislators declare in HB 234:
“The General Assembly finds and declares that the general welfare and material well-being of the citizens of this state depend in large measure upon the development of tourism in the state” and that “the inducement of the creation of tourism attraction projects is of paramount importance to the economy of the state.”
That is not economic conservatism. That is not laissez faire economics. It is government interfering in the marketplace by picking winners. Why should government subsidize a new water park at Lake Lanier, for example, that would interfere with existing investments at White Water?
Under the provisions of HB 234, the power to decide which businesses qualify for the break and which do not is invested entirely in the governor. He or she decides whether a company gets a huge tax break — a $100 million investment, for example, could get $25 million in tax breaks, but only if the governor smiles upon the company.
That’s an invitation to corruption, and sooner or later, you just know that invitation will be accepted by somebody.
It also demonstrates that economic conservatism, at least as practiced here in Georgia, applies only to those little people who can’t afford to buy lobbyists or politicians.
– Jay Bookman
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377 comments Add your comment
Keep Up the Good Fight!
April 26th, 2011
10:32 am
Funny, they whine about their claims about “no hope and change” and then they whine about the change that has been undertaken. And the fear the change that will come once the mess they left is on its way to being cleaned up.
UGA1999
April 26th, 2011
10:32 am
Bosch….”he has been what I expected” Wow you had your expectations this low for the leader of the worlds superpower? Great job!
USinUK
April 26th, 2011
10:33 am
“Hey if you are a mind reader why couldnt you read Obama’s mind to know that he would destroy our country?”
… too early in the week to award the tiara for best drama queen …
maybe we can offer runners-up lace hankies for their fevered brows
UGA1999
April 26th, 2011
10:33 am
Keep up…..what change?
jm
April 26th, 2011
10:34 am
Hypocrisy is bipartisan.
UGA1999
April 26th, 2011
10:34 am
USinUk…..still no intelligent comment from you. I can see now why you voted for this clown.
Lil' Barry Bailout
April 26th, 2011
10:35 am
Joe Mama: Aaaaaaand here it is. “(A) few million for a stupid theme park” is a perfectly laudable and understandable use of government money in these tough times. Just so long as it advances the conservative principles of ‘what’s mine is mine and what’s yours will be mine soon, too.’
———-
Go ahead and show us all where I said it was a good use of government money.
Didn’t think so.
UGA1999
April 26th, 2011
10:36 am
Ok, guys I have to run out for a bit. Be back around noon.
Joe Mama
April 26th, 2011
10:37 am
Lil’ — “Go ahead and show us all where I said it was a good use of government money.
Didn’t think so.”
Go ahead and show us where you opposed it or criticized it.
Didn’t think so. :p
larry
April 26th, 2011
10:38 am
I WIN !!! I WIN!! I WIN!!!
Commenting on a blog ?
oy
Keep Up the Good Fight!
April 26th, 2011
10:39 am
UGA child, if there are no changes, then why are you whining?
USinUK
April 26th, 2011
10:39 am
UGA – you mean other than correcting you??? twice, no less
TaxPayer
April 26th, 2011
10:39 am
UGA1999 sounds familiar. Wow. So many of them sound so familiar. They’re either the same person or they read from the same script each day. Or both.
Joe Mama
April 26th, 2011
10:42 am
TaxPayer — “UGA1999 sounds familiar. Wow. So many of them sound so familiar. They’re either the same person or they read from the same script each day. Or both.”
They all have fax machines and the RNC has them on its speed-dial blast-fax list.
It’s like Invasion of the Body Snatchers, except that there aren’t creepy alien pods involved.
willie lynch
April 26th, 2011
10:43 am
The defense of this Bill is interesting. Does it invite corruption? Absolutely. Does this fit the bill for the “good ole boys” network? Absolutely. Sherman should come through again.
USinUK
April 26th, 2011
10:44 am
“except that there aren’t creepy alien pods involved”
I dunno. have you seen Lindsey Graham???
BULLSEYE
April 26th, 2011
10:44 am
UGA1999 = WOW
willie lynch
April 26th, 2011
10:48 am
USinUK
April 26th, 2011
10:44 am
“except that there aren’t creepy alien pods involved”
I dunno. have you seen Lindsey Graham???
And Sessions from Alabama. I wonder how close the cousins were that produced him?
St Simons - we're on Island time
April 26th, 2011
10:53 am
-Adequately funding pre-k – can’t afford it
-payoff for lobbyist – cha-ching!
No wonder everybody laughs at us
We’ll have to change our tourist brochures – St Simons – an island off the coast of New Somalia
John Birch
April 26th, 2011
10:54 am
Let’s see, theme park gets tax breaks, theme park creates jobs, theme park brings tourist dollars into Georgia. Guess Jay isn’t happy with Georgia just having slightly higher unemployment than the national average. If we could just force enough people out of work maybe the state would go back to its Democratic roots.
Paul
April 26th, 2011
10:55 am
Well, I’ve skimmed through the four or so pages since I left and unless I missed it, no one has refuted Jay and made the case that Georgia’s economic conservatives are really, truly, cross-my-fingers-and-hope-to-die economic conservatives.
Just more praises to theory and ‘but what about Marta and… and… Obama?!!?”
If I missed it, please point it out. I’d really like to learn something today.
Joe Mama
April 26th, 2011
10:56 am
John Birch — “Let’s see, theme park gets tax breaks, theme park creates jobs”
Tax breaks do not, in and of themselves, create jobs. If tax breaks created jobs, then they would have created jobs during the Bush administration (when tax breaks aplenty were promulgated) and during the Obama administration (when many Bush tax breaks were extended).
What creates jobs is DEMAND. Tax breaks do not create demand.
John Birch
April 26th, 2011
10:57 am
St simons – Food stamps, government housing, universal health insurance, free health care, free cell phones, free pre-k, how about free cars and boats? Anything else you think the culls deserve just for being alive?
Lil' Barry Bailout
April 26th, 2011
10:59 am
Joe Mama
April 26th, 2011
10:37 am
———-
You made the claim. Just checking to see if you could back it up.
Hell, even the chirping crickets gave up on you and went home!
Joe Mama
April 26th, 2011
11:00 am
“You made the claim. Just checking to see if you could back it up.”
You *defended* the proposed expenditure. There’s nothing to check.
“Hell, even the chirping crickets gave up on you and went home!”
It figures that *you’d* pay attention to insects (laughing, pointing)
ken
April 26th, 2011
11:01 am
Does the lottery, advocated to by Joe Frank Harris, help poor people ? Conservative did not want it.
John Birch
April 26th, 2011
11:02 am
Joe Mama – Maybe not directly, but the point is maybe the theme park doesn’t open at all without the tax break, maybe it opens in Tennessee, maybe it can afford to hire a few more employees because it dosn’t have to pay so much tax. Question Why is there no state income tax in say Florida or Nevada? answer – they get enough revenue from tourists so they don’t have to tax their residents 6% like we do!!!!!
Jay
April 26th, 2011
11:05 am
So John Birch, just so I understand:
Gov’t putting taxpayers money into GM to save tens of thousands of well-paying factory jobs = socialism.
Gov’t putting taxpayers money into theme parks to create hundreds of poor-paying minimum-wage jobs=great investment.
Did I get that right?
Fresh sheets upstairs, by the way.
USinUK
April 26th, 2011
11:05 am
“advocated to by Joe Frank Harris”
good gravy … there’s a blast from the past
Jefferson
April 26th, 2011
11:06 am
A tax break is nothing more than a unfunded mandate for services, as they don’t just go away. Really a tax shift.
Finn McCool
April 26th, 2011
11:07 am
Let’s see, theme park gets tax breaks, theme park creates jobs, theme park brings tourist dollars into Georgia.
What’s wrong with this?
Let’s see, theme park invests its own money, theme park creates jobs, theme park brings tourist dollars into Georgia.
Are the Georgia tax payers going to get a cut of the profits that the theme park brings in? Why can’t we embrace teh free market, people? Handouts, tax cuts, public grants.
PJB
April 26th, 2011
11:08 am
Excellent piece, Jay. The points you made are exactly the things that drive me nuts about the Republican Party’s hypocrisy concerning Capitalism.
John Birch
April 26th, 2011
11:08 am
Paul – We’re wating for jay to make the point that Obamination isn’t anywhere near the liberal hope and change he campaigned on so we can rush to his defense. After all continuing the hated Bush tax cuts for the rich, keeping Gitmo opne, vastly increasing soliders and casualties in the quagmire that is Afghanistan, bombing the formerly sovereign state of Libya that never attacked us, etc. are all liberal rallying points aren’t they?
Common Sense
April 26th, 2011
11:09 am
The subsidies should end by both the democrats and the republicans.
The problem in Georgia is that many of those “republicans” were “democrats” first, and merely changed parties.
That includes the current governor and the former governor.
Understanding the political beliefs of politicians is not as easy or clear as Bookman wants to make it.
Yep
April 26th, 2011
11:10 am
People in this state actually want theme parks, so I can understand the break. It creates jobs and actually grows the economy in the surrounding area as well. No one outside of the perimeter actually WANTS Marta (crime, overcrowding, further loss in property value) in their county. There really is no comparison between the two.
John Birch
April 26th, 2011
11:11 am
Finn, Joe Mama et al – You realize tax breaks for businesses is a common practice and if your state isn’t playing that game your probably losing jobs and revenue to your neighbors. Drive 85 towards Montgomery and then ask yourself why one fairly new car plant is on the Georgia sidde and another is on the Alabama side. Oh, and please tell me why you hate businesses?
willie lynch
April 26th, 2011
11:14 am
Common Sense
April 26th, 2011
11:09 am
I agree, but I think we should stop looking at this in the political tone of Rep/Dem and view this as it is a class struggle in which the poor are losing. The American illusion is coming to an end. Time dictates the agenda.
Jay
April 26th, 2011
11:15 am
The problem, Carlos, is that such things happen independent of whether the taxes are there to finance them. There’s no linkage between them.
In fact, the idea that spending isn’t at least somewhat bound by revenue — an idea that Reagan popularized — is at the root of our fiscal problems.
Fix-It
April 26th, 2011
11:16 am
Hope to take EVEN your change and redistribute it….is more like it. Bottom line, are liberals so stupid that they think you can keep spending more than they take in? Cut 10% of ALL federal government across the board….
willie lynch
April 26th, 2011
11:18 am
Jay
April 26th, 2011
11:15 am
A fact based argument is worthless with most of the so-called consevatives.
FA Hayek
April 26th, 2011
11:18 am
It is an illusion when the more conservative interventionists believe that they will be able to confine these government controls to the particular kinds of which they approve. In a democratic society, at any rate, once the principle is admitted that the government undertakes responsibility for the status and position of particular groups, it is inevitable that this control will be extended to satisfy the aspirations and prejudices of the great masses. There is no hope of a return to a freer system until the leaders of the movement against state control are prepared first to impose upon themselves that discipline of a competitive market which they ask the masses to accept.” – F. A. Hayek (Nobel Prize Economist)
catlady
April 26th, 2011
11:18 am
Local leaders in my county, all elected as rabid R’s/tea party members, loudly proclaiming “smaller government” and “Keep your hands out of my pocket!” are mad because they are not going to be able to get FEMA payments for the damage done by the tornadoes that hit the county. Seems like the estimate of public-services damage was only a third of what was needed to get money. They want the other taxpayers to BAIL US OUT instead of it being “local responsibility.” How quickly the worm turns!
(Look for the “estimate” to go up a lot!)
Joe Mama
April 26th, 2011
11:24 am
John Birch — “Joe Mama – Maybe not directly, but the point is maybe the theme park doesn’t open at all without the tax break”
Too bad then. If a business can’t open without government assistance and SOCIALISM, then perhaps it shouldn’t open at all. You’re a perfect illustration of the ’situational conservatives’ that Jay’s written about here.
“maybe it opens in Tennessee’
And maybe Tennesseeans are socialists.
“maybe it can afford to hire a few more employees because it dosn’t have to pay so much tax.”
You know, when folks here argue that poor families could maybe afford a car if they didn’t have to pay so much tax, or maybe they could afford more medical care or something else, we’re told that the circumstances of the poor are due to their own poor planning and poor choices.
Well, so too it is with businesses. Can’t get your primo business plan off the ground without government help? Maybe your business plan sucks. Can’t find an investor for the great idea you’ve got? Maybe the free market is telling you something.
“Question Why is there no state income tax in say Florida or Nevada? answer – they get enough revenue from tourists so they don’t have to tax their residents 6% like we do!!!!!”
Well, good for Florida and Nevada. But what’s personal state income tax got to do with whether or not businesses get state corporate welfare?
Paul
April 26th, 2011
11:25 am
John Birch 11:08
In response to my question if anyone had attempted to refute Jay’s point, you responded
“Paul – We’re wating for jay to make the point that Obamination isn’t anywhere near the liberal hope and change he campaigned on so….”
I guess the short answer is “No”?
Sounds like no matter the topic of the thread, you’ll post off-topic because Jay hasn’t addressed hope and change?
That explains a lot. Thanks.
Heading upstairs.
Joe Mama
April 26th, 2011
11:33 am
Yep — “No one outside of the perimeter actually WANTS Marta (crime, overcrowding, further loss in property value) in their county. There really is no comparison between the two.”
Okay. Then metro can keep all its state tax revenue right here, and rural GA counties can keep all of theirs.
Good luck attracting jobs, Glascock County (pop 2556). Best wishes for economic expansion, Quitman County (pop 2598). Try tax breaks and handouts to build businesses, Taliaferro County (pop 2077).
Joe Mama
April 26th, 2011
11:40 am
John Birch — “Finn, Joe Mama et al – You realize tax breaks for businesses is a common practice and if your state isn’t playing that game your probably losing jobs and revenue to your neighbors.”
If you favor tax breaks and taxpayer handouts to businesses, then you are NOT a free-market conservative, regardless of what else you say.
“Drive 85 towards Montgomery and then ask yourself why one fairly new car plant is on the Georgia sidde and another is on the Alabama side.”
Because the governments of GA and AL kiss a lot of corporate butt. Otherwise, they couldn’t attract jobs to rural parts of their states.
“Oh, and please tell me why you hate businesses?”
By your logic, if you don’t support social spending, then you hate poor people. Do you hate poor people?
I don’t hate businesses. But I’m frankly sick of this ‘profits belong to me, but losses belong to the TAXPAYER’ scheme that’s been playing out over the last few years. When a big business fails or falls on hard times, they run to the government for a great big green Band-Aid, but when it comes time for taxes, it’s nothing but YOU’RE GOING TO DESTROY JOBS!!!11!!!NOPONIES!!1111!!ELEVENTY!!1
If you support the free market, then pay your business taxes and GTFO out of the handout line.
Thulsa Doom
April 26th, 2011
11:42 am
USinUK,
Democrats Post Health Care Bill Online, Starting 72-Hour Clock
Read more: http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/03/18/public-awaits-health-care-release-dems-celebrate-cost-estimate/#ixzz1KdytTqbK
The final health care bill was posted online for us to read- we had 72 hours. Your idea that the country had weeks and weeks of debate on the bill on C-SPAN is patently absurd. Do you not realize that Nancy Pelosi herself said “We have to pass the health care bill so that you can find out what’s in it” which enraged conservatives precisely because we only had 3 days to deliberate view the 1,000 page bill online?
Yep
April 26th, 2011
11:44 am
Joe Mama — Outside a few pockets located ITP, there are not a great deal of actual taxpayers (excluding SSI and Medicare). Why is it that Fulton is fighting Milton, Johns Creek and others to overturn their recent secession? They see the dramatic drop in taxes confiscated from these areas and need it ($$) to survive. Please do not put on that residents of ATL carry this state any more. It is now a Metro thing.
Working families do not like Marta, that is the bottom line.
Jack
April 26th, 2011
11:44 am
When Bookman opens his business, I wonder if he’ll refuse a tax break.
Common Sense
April 26th, 2011
11:50 am
@Willie,
I don’t disagree. But as long as people like Bookman want to lead with titles such as he does, that’s where the debate will fall.
And seem to have missed Boolman’’s rants liberals who act conservative when they feel it is to their personal advantage.
None of the politicians we have in office today have exhibited that they will stick to the principles of conservatism or liberalism despite what they may personally desire.
N
April 26th, 2011
11:52 am
Terrific piece. Jay you have nailed the absolute, breathtaking hypocrisy of the state leadership.
Gov Hypocrisy
April 26th, 2011
12:10 pm
There is hypocrisy in both parties. This is what the people are sick of. Get rid of the RINOs and get rid of the socialist liberal democrats.
TnGelding
April 26th, 2011
12:16 pm
Why look a gift horse in the mouth? Take it and be happy they’re hypocrites! They’re getting their own money back, not anything from the taxpayers, that otherwise wouldn’t have been invested. Or would it? That’s the $64k question. We need to improve conditions where it’s desirable to locate here without costly incentives.
Joe Mama
April 26th, 2011
12:18 pm
Yep — “Outside a few pockets located ITP, there are not a great deal of actual taxpayers (excluding SSI and Medicare).”
Buckhead
Virginia-Highlands
Piedmont Park area
Midtown/Atlantic Station area
Sandy Springs (before it bailed out)
Sigh. (eyeroll)
“Why is it that Fulton is fighting Milton, Johns Creek and others to overturn their recent secession? They see the dramatic drop in taxes confiscated from these areas and need it ($$) to survive.”
I didn’t say word one about Fulton. Please pay closer attention to what I *actually* said, and not to what you wish I had said.
“Please do not put on that residents of ATL carry this state any more. It is now a Metro thing.”
I didn’t say ATL — I *did* say metro. Did you miss it?
From me: “Okay. Then metro can keep all its state tax revenue right here, and rural GA counties can keep all of theirs.”
“Working families do not like Marta, that is the bottom line.”
I suspect that working families like it just fine, particularly if they *use* it.
redneckbluedog
April 26th, 2011
12:56 pm
So I watched that cartoon “squidbillies” for the first time…That is exactly how Georgia conservatives think….I’m going to quit calling y’all “T-bags” and start calling y’all “squidbillies”…:-)…..
redneckbluedog
April 26th, 2011
12:59 pm
Theme parks create jobs because of tax breaks..?!?….You have to got to be kidding….Theme parks get tax breaks…theme parks hire people….nobody has enough money to vist theme parks….Theme parks lay everybody off and go into recievership…..
poison pen
April 26th, 2011
1:03 pm
Thulsa, Amen, it’s hard to convince a liar of anything.
UGA1999
April 26th, 2011
1:07 pm
Ok, I am back.
oldguy
April 26th, 2011
1:22 pm
Ah, Just what we need, Jay defining what a Ga Conservative believes.
Now there is an unbias view!!!
What next Hitler celebrating Passover?
What a load!!
Please explain the origin of the universe next!
p.s. I love MARTA also….Who needs to go on Safari looking for wildlife in putrid swamps when you can just ride MARTA?? (bring your own protection; 9MM or bigger recommended!)
deegee
April 26th, 2011
1:39 pm
Maybe Nathan Steal has something in mind for the property that used to be Wilder Outdoors. I suppose that if any jobs are created they would be occupied by his family, friends, and business associates.
Hillbilly Deluxe
April 26th, 2011
1:45 pm
That’s an invitation to corruption, and sooner or later, you just know that invitation will be accepted by somebody.
My guess is that the “invitation” was accepted before the bill was ever voted on. I’m a cynic. though.
Yep
April 26th, 2011
2:01 pm
@ Joe Mama. My point exactly. Outside of the few pockets of wealth inside the perimeter you just selected, Atlanta resembles Detroit. Your original comment sounded like Atlanta drove the revenue for the state, when in actuality, it absolutely does not. Those outside the perimeter abhor MARTA and all the crime it brings by transporting Atlanta residents TO their area. How many peachtree city residents are caught at the marta bus station by the cops with stolen DVD players in their hands? A whole lot less than the residents of East Point, Gresham Park, Edgewod and the like I am positive. My point is that for every nice area of Atlanta that you expouse as wealthy, I can mention at least five that is the exact polar opposite. What would happen if the residents outside of the old Fulton, Dekalb, Cobb, Gwinnett and Clayton (original metro) counties were to withdraw their support from the good ole ATL? It would crumble into becoming Detroit even faster than it is already. There are not enough REAL taxpayers left in the area to support all the entitlement recipients without the other suburban or rural counties tax revenue. The point is Atlanta needs the remainder of the counties in this state MUCH more than they need it.
Go take a drive and see how much of a positive impact the Kia plant has had on LaGrange and tell me that offering deferred tax status to that company was a mistake. The entire town is blooming with the money this company has brought to the local economy.
Bottom line is that Marta transports urban blight to almost everyone’s detriment and the subsidizing (incenting) of new businesses through tax deferrment or breaks does the complete opposite to local economies outside the perimeter.
The comparison of a theme park to marta is not even fair. More TAXPAYERS want a them park than marta, so why not? Theme park, positive. Public transport, EXTREME NEGATIVE.
Working , taxpaying, families absolutely DO NOT like Marta. They want to feel safe when they are transported. Riding marta is simply too dangerous!! Methinks more would ride it if they weren’t so afraid of Atlanta’s resident gangs, thugs and other undesirables seeking to assault and rob them randomly. Why would anyone vote that their tax dollars were to go towards the funding of a transportation system that promoted the expansion and proliferation of violent and non-violent crime?
Joe Mama
April 26th, 2011
2:02 pm
oldguy — “Please explain the origin of the universe next!”
Well, when a mommy universe and a daddy universe love each other very much . . .
Joe Mama
April 26th, 2011
2:23 pm
Yep — “@ Joe Mama. My point exactly. Outside of the few pockets of wealth inside the perimeter you just selected, Atlanta resembles Detroit.”
Actually, that list wasn’t exhaustive, and it took me about twenty seconds to come up with it. Besides, *you* are the one demanding that we confine our discussion to ATL proper, whereas I have pointed at *Metro* from the outset.
Plus, I’ve been to Detroit many times. I know Detroit, and ATL ain’t Detroit.
“Your original comment sounded like Atlanta drove the revenue for the state, when in actuality, it absolutely does not.”
Wrong. My comment CLEARLY pointed to Metro as being the tax revenue generator for the state, not Atlanta. Please do not revise my comments.
“Those outside the perimeter abhor MARTA and all the crime it brings by transporting Atlanta residents TO their area.”
Which is why Clayton and Gwinnett built bus systems to interface with it, and why Cobb’s system has for many years already. (eyeroll)
“How many peachtree city residents are caught at the marta bus station by the cops with stolen DVD players in their hands? A whole lot less than the residents of East Point, Gresham Park, Edgewod and the like I am positive.”
Your argument would have better legs if you compared percentages, rather than raw numbers.
“My point is that for every nice area of Atlanta that you expouse as wealthy, I can mention at least five that is the exact polar opposite.”
So what? That doesn’t change the fact that ATL is the tax generator for the state. I bet I could name you a dozen ATL ZIP Codes that put more revenue in the state’s till than the poorest 25 GA counties do.
“What would happen if the residents outside of the old Fulton, Dekalb, Cobb, Gwinnett and Clayton (original metro) counties were to withdraw their support from the good ole ATL?”
I don’t know, but I didn’t comment on that. It’s beside the point of what I said.
“It would crumble into becoming Detroit even faster than it is already.”
I don’t think you’ve actually *been* to Detroit, have you?
“There are not enough REAL taxpayers left in the area to support all the entitlement recipients without the other suburban or rural counties tax revenue.”
What, pray tell, is a “REAL” taxpayer?
“The point is Atlanta needs the remainder of the counties in this state MUCH more than they need it.”
I vehemently disagree.
“Go take a drive and see how much of a positive impact the Kia plant has had on LaGrange and tell me that offering deferred tax status to that company was a mistake. The entire town is blooming with the money this company has brought to the local economy.”
I’m actually quite familiar with that area, but your argument is beside my point. Did you actually read what I said, and did you have a substantive response to it? Or are you just looking for a springboard for your own, unrelated argument?
“Bottom line is that Marta transports urban blight to almost everyone’s detriment and the subsidizing (incenting) of new businesses through tax deferrment or breaks does the complete opposite to local economies outside the perimeter.”
Too bad. If your business plan needs governmental support to succeed, then clearly the free market has already decided that your business plan is crap.
“The comparison of a theme park to marta is not even fair. More TAXPAYERS want a them park than marta, so why not? Theme park, positive. Public transport, EXTREME NEGATIVE.”
I don’t think your idea holds water. Besides, I’m against supplying financial incentives to business UNLESS the sponsoring government entity gets to hold preferred equity in the venture.
“Working , taxpaying, families absolutely DO NOT like Marta.”
I don’t believe you. I don’t doubt that *you* don’t like it, but I don’t think you speak for as many people as you apparently think you do.
“They want to feel safe when they are transported.”
Who are you to speak for them?
“Riding marta is simply too dangerous!!”
No, it’s not. I rode it all the time when I was in grad school, after I got out of the Army. I only got hassled once in three years, and no violence occurred.
“Methinks more would ride it if they weren’t so afraid of Atlanta’s resident gangs, thugs and other undesirables seeking to assault and rob them randomly.”
I think that’s what your problem is — you have a strong fear of those things. If so, then stay off the trains. Those of us less ruled by our emotions and fears will use your seat.
“Why would anyone vote that their tax dollars were to go towards the funding of a transportation system that promoted the expansion and proliferation of violent and non-violent crime?”
Gosh, what a horrible thing THAT would be! Where, exactly, is this mythical system you speak of? (laughing, pointing)
Yep
April 26th, 2011
3:17 pm
What would happen if the residents outside of the old Fulton, Dekalb, Cobb, Gwinnett and Clayton (original metro) counties were to withdraw their support from the good ole ATL?”
Joe — “I don’t know, but I didn’t comment on that. It’s beside the point of what I said”.
@ Joe — your point was that the metro “carried this state” indeed it does not. The plethora of government assistance (Welfare, FS, TANF, etc.) recipients in even the “metro” area as you state it vastly overwhelms the number of wealthy taxpayers in the area. Which is why the area is reaching a tipping point, much like Detroit did 10-15 years or so ago.
Joe — What, pray tell, is a “REAL” taxpayer?
@ Joe — A real taxpayer is a person who pays taxes and does not receive a benefit (refund) IN EXCESS of the monies already paid to uncle sam. This is also someone that does not qualify for EIC, welfare, food stamps, etc.
Working , taxpaying, families absolutely DO NOT like Marta.”
Joe — I don’t believe you. I don’t doubt that *you* don’t like it, but I don’t think you speak for as many people as you apparently think you do.
@ Joe — certainly you have not been here very long? There have been long standing battles between many of the extended METRO counties and marta to put off allowing this transport system. As a resident of Cobb of almost 30 years, I remember that this is why they created the CCT, just to keep marta from moving in with substations.
Joe — Who am I to speak for them?
@ Joe Right back at you! There are many, MANY, MANY citizens who are smart enough to know that they can avoid marta and all the crime it brings by simply keeping it out of their neighborhood and by staying off of it. I am guessing that marta has gotten better since I rode it when I worked DT for 5 years and went to grad school as well? I don’t think so.
The world you live in must be grand. Please stay ITP, you will become a statistic if you keep those rose colored glasses on. But I guess those Rich taxpayers will protect you? Not! They are behind their 10 foot razor wire laced fences as protection from the other “residents”.
My point is that Atlanta needs the state, not the other way around.
I love Georgia. Atlanta no longer is even close to resembling the rest of the state.
Yep
April 26th, 2011
3:20 pm
@ Joe. Oh, I forgot. Yes I have been to Detroit. My grandparents live off Livernois Ave. down by the interstate until their deaths. I felt like I needed an armored truck to visit the old homeplace a few years ago, much like I do now when traveling in many Atlanta neighborhoods.
Yep
April 26th, 2011
3:20 pm
lived
Joe Mama
April 26th, 2011
3:30 pm
Yep — “@ Joe — your point was that the metro “carried this state” indeed it does not.”
I disagree.
“The plethora of government assistance (Welfare, FS, TANF, etc.) recipients in even the “metro” area as you state it vastly overwhelms the number of wealthy taxpayers in the area.”
I don’t believe you. Evidence, please. With link.
“Which is why the area is reaching a tipping point, much like Detroit did 10-15 years or so ago.”
Again, I don’t believe you.
“@ Joe — A real taxpayer is a person who pays taxes and does not receive a benefit (refund) IN EXCESS of the monies already paid to uncle sam. This is also someone that does not qualify for EIC, welfare, food stamps, etc.”
There are PLENTY of your so-called real taxpayers in the Metro. I believe you are simply being obtuse on this point.
“@ Joe — certainly you have not been here very long?”
~20 years.
“There have been long standing battles between many of the extended METRO counties and marta to put off allowing this transport system.”
I cited three counties where county transit interfaces with MARTA. That directly refutes you.
“As a resident of Cobb of almost 30 years, I remember that this is why they created the CCT, just to keep marta from moving in with substations.”
And CCT goes STRAIGHT to the Arts Center station. Good job keeping those MARTA riders out; we’re sending a bus STRAIGHT to them.
“@ Joe Right back at you!”
I’m not presuming to speak for them as you are.
“There are many, MANY, MANY citizens who are smart enough to know that they can avoid marta and all the crime it brings by simply keeping it out of their neighborhood and by staying off of it.”
That works fine, until your county transit system hooks up with it like at least three counties in the Metro have done.
“I am guessing that marta has gotten better since I rode it when I worked DT for 5 years and went to grad school as well? I don’t think so.”
If you haven’t used it, then how would you know?
“The world you live in must be grand.”
Well, at least it’s not all scary like yours.
“Please stay ITP”
I’m not.
“you will become a statistic if you keep those rose colored glasses on.”
I don’t wear rose-colored glasses. I know how to take care of myself and I don’t pee my pants when rough-looking folk are visible near me.
“But I guess those Rich taxpayers will protect you? Not!”
I don’t need the protection of others; I can protect myself just fine.
“They are behind their 10 foot razor wire laced fences as protection from the other “residents”.
It must be awful to live in a world where you think you have to live like that.
“My point is that Atlanta needs the state, not the other way around.”
I disagree.
“I love Georgia. Atlanta no longer is even close to resembling the rest of the state.”
Then if you live in the Metro, perhaps you should go elsewhere. Preferably somewhere with lots of “real” taxpayers and no poor people on assistance.
Fix-It
April 26th, 2011
3:59 pm
It just makes me laugh at all the liberals trying to get their hands on other people’s money; I am still waiting for any kind of logic from the left. Is it because you are “entitled” to something for nothing, or is it that you are too lazy to go get your own money? This could all be solved if our elected officials would live within “OUR” means, but oh no, the liberal logic is “We must spend our way out of debt”. If that is what they are teaching at Ivy League schools then we need to defund them.. How about you wait until you have the money before you spend it, what a stupid idea, right lefties? FAIRTAX.org
patriot
April 26th, 2011
4:38 pm
Libertarians have known this for decades.
John Daly
April 26th, 2011
4:59 pm
Hey, USinUK, The CEo of CSPAN said that the White House only allowed one hour of televised debate on healthcare. In fact, they sent a letter to the White House complaining of the restrictions on coverage.
betty
April 26th, 2011
5:16 pm
Republicans work for the big business just like the governor. When the republicans rule that means us people that work hard for a living start losing.
yuzeyurbrane
April 26th, 2011
5:48 pm
And what about Deal’s promise to have the state do the Savannah harbour project if the Feds don’t? Now, I happen to think it is probably a good investment for the state to make but I’m a liberal. I agree with Jay. Capitalist theory would suggest that the busn. interests who stand to benefit most should do it by raising private capital; if they can’t then the mkt. has decided it’s a bad idea. This selfdirecting tax revenues trick is 1 of the biggest scams the so-called conservatives have come up with. Not only in tourism but in allowing more than $50 million per yr. with an automatic inflation index being “re-directed” to private schools at the same time public education has been bludgeoned by billions. Shared sacrifice? Ha! The joke is on us middle class suckers.
Atlanta 1
April 26th, 2011
5:50 pm
This is wrong – should be repealed – end of story.
John from Calhoun
April 26th, 2011
6:57 pm
This is the first time I have ever agreed with Jay Bookman. It’s also the first time he has ever written an intelligent column.
mmm, mmm, mmm, Barack the Liar Obama - BEND OVER, Here comes the CHANGE!
April 26th, 2011
8:08 pm
Hmmmm….how many dems have changed party? Talk about situational? How sad.
killerj
April 26th, 2011
8:14 pm
Level Playing field? ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha,what a joke,head back to mars bonehead.Go Tea Party.