The Ryan budget, Part I: Social Security
House Republicans today released a budget plan drafted by U.S. Rep. Paul Ryan, chairman of the House Budget Committee, that claims to cut government spending by $6.2 trillion over the next decade, lower the top tax rate on the wealthiest of Americans to 25 percent, cut the debt by $4.4 trillion, raise real GDP by $1.5 trillion over the next decade, restore Social Security and Medicare to solvency and bring the unemployment rate down to 4 percent by 2015.
U.S. Rep. Paul Ryan (AP photo)
Other than that, it doesn’t really promise much.
Given the importance of this debate, I thought I’d start a series of posts looking into those and other claims. And I want to begin with Ryan’s plan for saving Social Security, in part because it’s pretty quick and simple.
You see, the much-ballyhooed “Path to Prosperity” doesn’t even address the issue. Here are its recommendations regarding Social Security (p.47):
“– Force policymakers to come to the table and enact common-sense reforms to keep the program solvent for current beneficiaries and make it stronger for future generations. Social Security must be reformed to prevent severe cuts in future benefits.
— Set in motion the process of reforming Social Security by establishing a requirement that in the event that the Social Security program is not sustainable, the President, in conjunction with the Board of Trustees, must submit a plan for restoring balance to the fund. The budget then requires congressional leaders in both the U.S. House of Representatives and U.S. Senate to put forward their best ideas as well.
– Move the conversation to solutions that save Social Security, thus providing the space to forge a bipartisan path forward and ensure that Social Security remains a key part of retirement security for the future.”
In effect, it is merely a plan to someday force other people to come up with a plan. To my mind, that falls a little short of bold and forthright.
In the budget document, Ryan does attempt to set the parameters for debate over Social Security’s future, and he makes two essential points.
First, he takes tax hikes off the table as any part of the solution. More specifically, he opposes any attempt to levy Social Security taxes on income above the current FICA ceiling — set at $106,800 in 2010 — claiming that such a move “would create a significant drag on economic growth, job creation, productivity and wages.”
Second, Ryan dismisses the notion that Social Security has a trust fund it can draw upon to pay future benefits, saying the claim is “derived from dubious government accounting.”
“From 1983 to 2011, the trust fund collected more in Social Security taxes than it paid out in Social Security benefits,” he acknowledges. “But the government borrowed all of these surpluses and spent them on other government programs unrelated to Social Security.”
In other words, he argues, the $2.6 trillion paper surplus doesn’t exist. The funds that working Americans thought they had been socking away through their weekly FICA taxes in preparation for retirement have already been spent on other things, and the idea that FICA taxes were truly separate from income taxes, with the revenue being set aside for separate purposes …. well, that was merely an unfortunate illusion.
Sorry about that. You were betrayed; get over it and suck it up.
However, there’s a fundamentally important contradiction between Ryan’s two points, a contradiction that strikes at the heart of fairness and equity.
If the Social Security surplus really doesn’t exist, if it was just an illusion that government has no obligation to honor, then the extra FICA taxes that working and middle class Americans have been paying for the past 28 years were also an illusion. In effect, since the money was being siphoned off to fund general government, those taxes were just an income tax by another name. That’s the real effect of Ryan’s claim.
However, if you accept that harsh reality, how do you justify exempting income above $106,000 from those taxes? If the money really isn’t going into Social Security, then why do working and middle class Americans have to pay it while more affluent Americans are largely protected?
Ryan and his GOP colleagues can’t have it both ways. They can’t justify the income cap on FICA taxes by claiming that the revenue is being set aside for Social Security, and then turn around and claim that it wasn’t being set aside for Social Security after all. There’s no consistency to those positions.
Well, let me take that back. There is one consistent thread between those two claims. The argument in favor of preserving the FICA cap protects upper-income Americans at the expense of the middle and working classes. Likewise, the argument that there is no Social Security surplus, and that benefits will have to be cut as a result, also favors upper-income Americans at the expense of the middle and working classes.
The path to prosperity indeed.
– Jay Bookman
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318 comments Add your comment
Granny Godzilla
April 5th, 2011
4:27 pm
So the Dems are okay with us borrowing 40 cents for every dollar that we spend?
Nope, we feel as bad about that as you do about making folks homeless, hungry , uninsured and unemployed….
Oh wait a minute….
Thulsa Doom
April 5th, 2011
4:27 pm
Corey,
So a 6th grade one liner is what makes a debate? Only a mindless simpleton would consider that to be scoring points. Most people I would hope would rather see a real debate with real solutions- not one liners and zingers. Its the ole style vs substance debate and stupid people go for style.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
April 5th, 2011
4:28 pm
They are okay with imminent bankruptcy
Another drama queen….. the US is not bankrupt. But you were not concerned about bankruptcy when you argued for the extension of the Bush Tax Cut for the rich or even the original Bush tax cuts. We have an acknowledged debt issue but the issue is how do we address. Everyone is discussing the timing of addressing it and the manner (both parties). A little less drama queen and a little more real discussion would help.
Adam
April 5th, 2011
4:29 pm
Dave R: Jay already showed you the Obama Budget plan on the first page. I guess you’re one of the ones that genuinely can’t keep up.
Paul
April 5th, 2011
4:29 pm
Granny 4:27
That was really good…
Thulsa Doom
April 5th, 2011
4:29 pm
Granny,
Nobody makes someone else homeless, hungry, etc.
People make themselves homeless, hungry, etc. by virtue of their own life choices.
Try again Granny since you still have problems making a logical point.
Get Real
April 5th, 2011
4:30 pm
Keep…your precious democrats never passed a budget for FY11; that runs 10/1/10 through 9/30/11. I am not talking about next fiscal year, I am talking about the one we are in at the present time…
Keep Up the Good Fight!
April 5th, 2011
4:31 pm
If Obama was a leader he would have laid out a budget that addressed the deficit and dealt with entitlements that could be sent over to Congress for debate. Then it could be set side by side with the Ryan proposal for comparison
Del, Obama has put out the 2012 budget. So now we can expect you to take the two budgets and lay them out side by side so we can compare, right?
Granny Godzilla
April 5th, 2011
4:31 pm
Thulsa Doom
April 5th, 2011
4:29 pm
Granny,
Nobody makes someone else homeless, hungry, etc.
People make themselves homeless, hungry, etc. by virtue of their own life choices.
Try again Granny since you still have problems making a logical point.
Bull Dookey
Shame on you.
Where's My Party?
April 5th, 2011
4:32 pm
LOL….classic liberal mentality.
“Nope, we feel as bad about that as you do about making folks homeless, hungry , uninsured and unemployed….”
Thulsa Doom
April 5th, 2011
4:33 pm
Good Grief,
Granny and Paul are of the opinion that govt and Republicans MAKE people homeless, hungry, etc. Did Repub operatives show up at someone’s house, physically remove them and physically take away their food. Did Repubs physically show up at someone’s job site and fire them? Ya’ll come up with the craziest statements.
Get Real
April 5th, 2011
4:33 pm
Corey….doesn’t sound like it takes much to impress you…oh look something shiny…wow
josef nix
April 5th, 2011
4:33 pm
jm
I still don’t quite grasp where you get the idea that I think that that’s what the rich want. Like everybody else, there are those with a moral compass and there are those without. The point I keep trying, ever how inarticulately, to make is that when we go messing around with those programs aimed at providing for social security and social welfare we are completely missing the meaning of the words “security” and “welfare.” Without such programs and without funding them, those at the top would be a lot less secure and their welfare a lot less cicumspect.
And at the risk of bringing out some rather nasty commentary from some, it isn’t the rich or the poor who get on my nerves, but the bourgeois who are scared sh*tless they’ll find themselves thrown in with the former whom they feel ever so superior to and at the same time are clawing trying to curry favor from the rich in order to obtain an entree into a segment of society they have the mistaken idea are “better.” It’s not healthy.
Adam
April 5th, 2011
4:33 pm
Dave R: ” The Republican plan for saving Social Security is … someone else ought to come up with a plan.”
No, Jay. The Ryan Plan for saving SS is to be determined later with input from others. Reading compehension is your friend.
That’s EXACTLY THE SAME THING.
Del: If Obama was a leader he would have laid out a budget that addressed the deficit and dealt with entitlements that could be sent over to Congress for debate.
If Ryan’s plan ALSO dealt with entitlements and dealt with other things that the Obama plan DOES deal with, then you might be right. At least you don’t have this ridiculous idea that “there is no Obama plan. What Obama plan? He never had a plan, did he?”
Del
April 5th, 2011
4:34 pm
Keep, I said a budget that addressed the deficit and dealt with entitlements. We haven’t seen one with those ingredients to compare.
TaxPayer
April 5th, 2011
4:34 pm
jm,
If you do not think that percentage of GDP is a suitable measure, then perhaps you should take that issue up with folks at the CBO. You should also try to avoid providing linkees that use it because they tend to diminish the strength of your arguments against the use of GDP. I think it is you that is in need of an econ course.
Adam
April 5th, 2011
4:34 pm
Btw Dave R, this: The Ryan Plan for saving SS is to be determined later with input from others.
IS CALLED PUNTING
Keep Up the Good Fight!
April 5th, 2011
4:35 pm
Keep…your precious democrats never passed a budget for FY11; that runs 10/1/10 through
9/30/11
Real..Congress is compromised of Republicans, Democrats and a few others. Congress did not pass a budget. Why did the Republicans not work with the Dems to get one passed? They are all elected leaders, so do explain precisely what happened. You may want to pay particular attention to the rules used to block bills by some hiding their agendas for political gain.
Thulsa Doom
April 5th, 2011
4:36 pm
Granny Godzilla,
Booo hooo! Them evil ole Repubs are driving around town stealing people’s houses, stealing their food, making them dumb by forcibly keeping them from going to school, plying them with drugs and alcohol, making them dependent on all these govt free goodies.
And of course none of these people are at all responsible for their own plights are they granny?
Paul
April 5th, 2011
4:36 pm
Thulsa Doom
“Nobody makes someone else homeless, hungry, etc.
People make themselves homeless, hungry, etc. by virtue of their own life choices. ”
Mental illness is a choice?
Post traumatic stress disorder is a choice? (okay, you have me there. They volunteered for the military, it was their choice, so I suppose they kinda chose that mental illness from all that combat they volunteered for).
People choose to get sick with a disease not covered by their health insurance, so they go bankrupt and lose their home and get homeless.
Wow, I never, ever knew we had so many choices!
Hope you never make any of those choices, Thulsa.
the crazies are out!
April 5th, 2011
4:37 pm
Must going to be a full moon tonight. I see the Obama sheep Zombies are loose
Dave R.
April 5th, 2011
4:37 pm
“Dave R: Jay already showed you the Obama Budget plan on the first page. I guess you’re one of the ones that genuinely can’t keep up.”
I AM keeping up, Adam. It’s not a serious budget proposal, as it doesn’t address the deficit except for what – $8 billion? Care to tell us what ELSE the GOP is punting when it comes to Hope & Punt’s proposals in Congress?
josef nix
April 5th, 2011
4:38 pm
While I do not wish bad luck on anyone, I would almost like to see some of the arrogant “I’ve got mine” or “they’re poor because they choose to be” types lose it all and then see whose “fault” it is…
Keep Up the Good Fight!
April 5th, 2011
4:38 pm
Why Del, do tell me which of the 216 pages pages of Obama’s plan you want to compare to the actual budget numbers in messiah Ryan’s 73 page plan.
Del
April 5th, 2011
4:38 pm
“If Ryan’s plan ALSO dealt with entitlements and dealt with other things that the Obama plan DOES deal with, then you might be right.”
Adam, the problem with your argument is that Obama’s plan does not deal with those issues.
Dave R.
April 5th, 2011
4:38 pm
Adam, Reading compehension is your friend. try the English language someday.
Thulsa Doom
April 5th, 2011
4:39 pm
Oooops. I voted libertarian last election. Somehow or another I musta directly made a Democrat homeless, hungry, and unemployed according to granny godzilla. Shame on me.
Adam
April 5th, 2011
4:40 pm
Thulsa and md have this idea that personal choices determine everything. They do not. Other people, often other more powerful people, ALSO make choices that determine things FOR you. Your life is not made up solely of choices that YOU make, without any input or influence from elsewhere.
This should be more obvious when it comes to the homeless but one who has always had the silver spoon in their mouth do not understand the homeless, and prefer to blame the homeless for their own condition – all of them without exception – to make themselves feel better about having everything handed to them in life.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again. GET REAL.
Del
April 5th, 2011
4:41 pm
Keep, why don’t you tell me or better yet tell the Democrats so they’ll be able to make an argument against the Ryan plan instead of just attempting to criticize it.
Adam
April 5th, 2011
4:41 pm
It’s not a serious budget proposal
Funny, that’s what I think of RYAN’S plan. And I don’t have to go over every possible way the GOP is punting. I have laid out enough evidence for you to actually address it, but you’re not. Because you know I’m right.
Get Real
April 5th, 2011
4:41 pm
Keep……Oh Plezzzz, you had a super majority in both the Senate and the House…don’t give me excuses…man up, just like the democrats should do but will not or the truth is they simply cannot…
Dave R.
April 5th, 2011
4:41 pm
So now I hear that Hope & Punt wants lawmakers to start “acting like grownups” in regards to budget talks.
You first!
Naner-naner boo-boo!
retired early
April 5th, 2011
4:41 pm
The wealthy can have their tax break…level the playing field…but cap mortgage interest to homes under $500,000 and no break for 2rd homes and watch them squirm. What is not fair about that…everyone. The top 10% would pay WAY more taxes than they do now. IT WILL NEVER HAPPEN….because the GOP will protect these people at ALL COST, so when they realize this will raise their “taxable income”, we will suddenly hear that it would “cost jobs” for the rest of us unworthy, needy bums.
Mother Therese
April 5th, 2011
4:42 pm
jm,
This is not about liberals, conservatives,Republicans or Democrats. We as the American taxpaying public need to educate and share information with each other. Unfortunately, our government and the media is not looking out for Middle class Americas best interests right now. So, we need to educate and inform each other about what we have learned. We the Middle class, taxpaying public are being robbed and instead of attacking each other we need to pull together and come up with solutions as to what is happening to us. Please respect the fact that I am trying to inform my fellow Americans about the truth and not insult myself or others.
Granny Godzilla
April 5th, 2011
4:42 pm
From Jed Lewison at DK and a most excellent point….
So House Republicans claim their long-term fiscal plan will create millions of new jobs, citing as evidence economic projections from the privately-funded Heritage Foundation that were released as a part of their plan.
In response, Matt Yglesias asked a good question: have Republicans previously used Heritage forecasts to defend their fiscal policy proposals? The answer, he reports, was a resounding yes: Republicans touted Heritage forecasts that the Bush tax cuts would generate an economic boom, boosting employment by roughly 6.5 million jobs.
Of course, despite the Heritage prediction, there wasn’t job growth, median income fell, debt levels exploded, and Bush left office with the economy in tatters.
And now Paul Ryan wants you trust the same analysts that were so wrong the last time around.
not so much eh?
Granny Godzilla
April 5th, 2011
4:43 pm
I guess we could call it Ryan’s “mental” roadmap.
Get Real
April 5th, 2011
4:44 pm
Adam…why don’t you try growing a pair and quit the “woe is me” crying…
A private sector employee
April 5th, 2011
4:44 pm
I *kind* of agree with you, Jay. But here is the difference:
There is no way that someone could support a flat tax type federal/state tax scheme and not agree to a flat tax FICA.
There should be NO cap on FICA wages. But there should also be NO cap on FICA benefits. Otherwise, the system starts to become a welfare program.
Benefits should be set with some sound financial reasoning. If a billionaire puts in $70 million a year for 40 years, he ought to be able to get get out a substantial amount of what he contributed. What we get now is virtually NOTHING from the billionaire in comparison to his/her income.
Uncap FICA taxes. Uncap benefits. Run this like a real savings/investment plan. Separate the money from the general funds, and prevent politicians from touching it.
Dave R.
April 5th, 2011
4:44 pm
” I have laid out enough evidence for you to actually address it, but you’re not.”
Actually, you have not – as usual. We know you don’t like it, but you mysteriously have nothing in the way of factual data to make your claim or dispute his assertions.
“Because you know I’m right.”
I know you’re never right, that’s true.
Granny Godzilla
April 5th, 2011
4:44 pm
“Oh Plezzzz, you had a super majority in both the Senate and the House”
Here’s a quiz…..for how long? And what were the start and end dates?
getalife
April 5th, 2011
4:44 pm
It’s a joke as expected from the gop.
It is being laughed at because it is a joke.
Only cons will vote to steal their own ss and medicare.
Yeah, they are that smart.
Just ask them.
josef nix
April 5th, 2011
4:45 pm
Adam
I agree with much of what you say, but it’s not the ones with a silver spoon, but the ones with a stainless steel one…
Adam
April 5th, 2011
4:45 pm
Del: First of all, entitlements don’t need to be “dealt with” per se. They need to be addressed from an administrative standpoint rather than a fiscal one. The way to solve any fiscal shortfall there is through taxes that have been cut too much. The Obama plan deals with other things and really should be considered an opening bid to come up with a better plan. However, Ryan’s plan is not that “better plan.” So far, all I’m seeing is that the plan takes Obama’s plan, and tacks on privatization of medicare and “maybe someday we will deal with social security.” I do not call this a serious plan either.
Back Seater
April 5th, 2011
4:45 pm
No wonder the unemployment rate has gone down, Mr. Obama has added 155,000 people to the government, man he needs those votes bad.
If you read Rep Ryans message you will also see that the average federal worker makes more than $70,000 annually, while in the real world, the average is less than $50,000, not to mention the best benefit package there is in the world, that we are paying for. When are you lefties going to see the light and do somethng about it. Rep Ryan is trying.
TaxPayer
April 5th, 2011
4:46 pm
I see Ryan also wants to throw people on food stamps under the bus in order to save us a little bit more in tax dollars so we can afford to give the wealthiest yet another tax cut. Food stamp outlays tend to track very well with those in poverty and so the people in need of food for their children when they are down and out would need to turn to charitable contributions or face starvation but the Republicans wanted to cut the tax deduction for charitable contributions which in turn would cut charitable contributions and so the poor not only get poorer, they get hungrier under the Ryan rocky road map. One has to wonder, what is Ryan’s true plan — perhaps it is to patch potholes with the bodies of those he throws under the bus in order to save on fed highway funds in preparation for his next round of tax cuts for the poor rich. How thoughtful.
Call it what it is
April 5th, 2011
4:46 pm
Social Security has no “trust fund” or “surplus.” It merely holds trillions of dollars of IOUs from the federal government (the surplus run all these years that the government just couldn’t keep its hands off and deal with the tough task of governing, like cutting spending and raising taxes). Tax rates are already high enough (and don’t forget that the ‘wealthiest Americans’-which are properly called the ‘highest taxable earners’, may not be wealthy at all-already pay most of the taxes in this country). I’m sure Bernie Madoff picked up a few pointers from the government.
Payroll taxes are also paid by employers (raising the cost of employment), so revamping the system would surely be helpful. This sounds like at least someone has the balls to say it needs to be fixed and offers an alternatives, haven’t heard anything from the other powers that be. Too busy campaigning for reelection rather than leading (a broken record)
Adam
April 5th, 2011
4:47 pm
Get Real: I have no woe is me. I have a great job. But I didn’t have it handed to me, I had to work for it. And there were many many obstacles in the way that were choices made by other people. If it were all about my choices I would have had this job handed to me on a silver platter like the silver spoon-fed populace.
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
April 5th, 2011
4:48 pm
josef @ 4:38
I imagine that would bring out one of those Ebeneezer Scrooge type revelations….. One would hope that it wouldn’t take something as drastic to bring out the humanity in someone.
Paul
April 5th, 2011
4:49 pm
call it
You may want to read the following, “About The Social Security Trust Fund”
Forget the author, just concentrate on the concepts.
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2008/03/28/about-the-social-security-trust-fund/
Adam
April 5th, 2011
4:49 pm
Dave R: You attack me for not providing evidence up to your standards, so why don’t you put your money where your mouth is? Show me the factual evidence that Obama is “Hope and Punt.” Remember, you will have to do a better job than just asserting it, and you can’t JUST provide evidence like I did. Go ahead, show me what kind of evidence I should be presenting to you to make my case by making your own case in the same way.
I’m waiting…..
getalife
April 5th, 2011
4:50 pm
The gop have played childish games since the collapse .
They will are irresponsible children and not serious about any issues.
They just vote to make their donors happy.
Thulsa Doom
April 5th, 2011
4:50 pm
Paul,
Apparently you don’t know very much.
I know 2 vietnam vets that are on disability from PTSD and are homeowners and get free medical and other help. They’ve been on the dole since the early 70s- nothing really wrong with either of them but regardless they’ve been retired for 40 years now.
Are you of the asinine opinion that these people and the mentally ill don’t already get help. They always have and they always will. Your statement is one of utter silliness and obscene hyperbole. Nothing more than rhetoric that ignores reality.
And how many people do we all know that got sick, lost their house, etc. I know not of one. Not a single one. I do know of 2 people that got sick, got fully treated, recovered, and had help from friends and family. I also know of other people that the same happened and after 2 years they went on disability. I know still further of other people that lost their homes. But they just rented an apartment or a house until they could get going again. Yes there are some people out there who the worst things happen to them. But its greatly exaggerated, there is and always will be a safety social net, and the number of people who get sick, go bankrupt, and end up homeless is so abysmally small that I can’t believe you write about it as if its a credible point. Its just hyperbole and emotional hypotheticals that happen very rarely.
Granny Godzilla
April 5th, 2011
4:52 pm
I’m seeing reports in WI of 75 to 80% voter turn out….
Doggone/GA
April 5th, 2011
4:52 pm
“Why can’t I exempt myself from social security taxes and any future social security payments?”
for the same reason you can’t opt out of minimum car insurance and self-insure your car.
getalife
April 5th, 2011
4:52 pm
Paul,
doom knows everything so we listen to doom.
He knows two people so ……….
Where's My Party?
April 5th, 2011
4:53 pm
“Another drama queen….. the US is not bankrupt. But you were not concerned about bankruptcy when you argued for the extension of the Bush Tax Cut for the rich or even the original Bush tax cuts. We have an acknowledged debt issue but the issue is how do we address. Everyone is discussing the timing of addressing it and the manner (both parties). A little less drama queen and a little more real discussion would help.”
A good start would be to stop calling keeping tax rates where they are by this administration the “Bush tax cuts for the rich”.
getalife
April 5th, 2011
4:53 pm
“I’m seeing reports in WI of 75 to 80% voter turn out…”
walker fired them up and they are ready to vote..
Del
April 5th, 2011
4:54 pm
Adam, the only objective criticism of Ryan’s plan (opposite form the subjective variety) is that it projects 4% unemployment by 2015. That projection is overly optimistic but other than that it’s worthy of consideration, discussion and appropriate revisions with inclusions. The Democrats have made a zero attempt.
Adam
April 5th, 2011
4:55 pm
Del: The Heritage Foundation is not something I would consider as “objective.” Try again.
Get Real
April 5th, 2011
4:55 pm
Let’s see Granny, the liberal ground swell started in Nov 2006 and reached critical “super majority” mass in Nov 2008 when his highness was elected so it became official in Jan 2009…
Keep Up the Good Fight!
April 5th, 2011
4:56 pm
Get Real…now you do realize that the Dem 60 vote supermajority ended in January 2010 right? So there was no “supermajority” for the 2011 budget discussion. Do try to be real.
josef nix
April 5th, 2011
4:56 pm
SoCo
Send them to Wounded Knee and see how much a “choice” is at work…
TaxPayer
April 5th, 2011
4:57 pm
75 to 80% voter turnout. Is that a record.
Thulsa Doom
April 5th, 2011
4:57 pm
Adam
April 5th, 2011
4:40 pm
Thulsa and md have this idea that personal choices determine everything. They do not. Other people, often other more powerful people, ALSO make choices that determine things FOR you. Your life is not made up solely of choices that YOU make, without any input or influence from elsewhere.
Adam,
Nope. I pretty much have a direct command over my own life. Self- employed. And when I worked in corporate America I still had a great deal of control over everything-even my job which I kept while 80% of my colleagues were laid off. Its disturbing to me that you believe other people control your life. That is just weak. Now if other people contol you and your life then that’s just too bad. Now go and do something about it!
Centrist
April 5th, 2011
4:57 pm
Mother Therese – Most people on these AJC blogs have nasty pet names for either side of the debate. What would be impossible to find here are people who base their votes on who is best for the job. Only someone completely mindless would look at their ballot and choose all R or D. Country over Politics is a great idea, but politicians have most people brainwashed into “Insult the people you disagree with” and it is sickening to see. An uneducated voter on either side will go to great lengths to defend their point of view and rather than admit the other side may have a good point they hurl insults toward the person, party or idea.
Jay could write a blog that encourages civil debate in the comment section and it would last for maybe the first 2 or 3 comments, then you guys will all start insulting each other and any rational voice that provides ideas is lost in the shuffle.
I imagine that if our founding fathers could have seen what their political process has turned into they would be sickened. We do not have a government of, by and for the people.
getalife
April 5th, 2011
4:58 pm
“4% unemployment by 2015″
With Obama as President, it is doable.
With gop, another collapsed economy is inevitable because they won’t govern Wall Street.
josef nix
April 5th, 2011
4:58 pm
getalife
My ex-sister-in-law’s first cousin knew a lady whose neighbor knew somebody who…
Paul
April 5th, 2011
4:58 pm
Thulsa Doom
“Apparently you don’t know very much.”
Well,, I try -
Thanks for the support offered by the two guys you know.
In your post you wrote “Are you of the asinine opinion that these people and the mentally ill don’t already get help. They always have and they always will.”
If I can refresh your memory, you originally posted
“Nobody makes someone else homeless, hungry, etc.
People make themselves homeless, hungry, etc. by virtue of their own life choices. ”
I thought we were discussing how the hungry and homeless get that way because of choices they make? Now you’re going into available services?
We haven’t, to the best of my knowledge, started playing ‘Red Herring’ yet.
So, given what I wrote in response to your original post, it is still your contention that people choose to get ill with diseases not fully covered by their health insurance, resulting in bankruptcy and homelessness; that people choose to become mentally ill and end up on the street? That vets choose to get PTSD and end up homeless?
TaxPayer
April 5th, 2011
4:58 pm
Doom knows two people, yes, but he also knows OF even two more people. Awesome.
Dave R.
April 5th, 2011
5:00 pm
Adam, anyone who looks at things objectively (and we all know that is not your strong suit) can see that this President is NOT a leader; except a poor one.
HCR – let Congress take the lead – signed a bill that will likely be overturned by the SCOTUS that didn’t even fix the problems with the health care system.
Budget crisis – let Congress take the lead – propose a joke of a budget in the midst of the biggest fiscal crisis in our history.
DADT – let Congress take the lead.
Gitmo – do nothing for two+ years – then reverse course.
The guy might have a future in the NFL – if there is an NFL later on – but he’s an abject failure as a leader.
Hope & Punt – because Hope & Change didn’t work out so good for the county.
Thulsa Doom
April 5th, 2011
5:00 pm
getalife
April 5th, 2011
4:52 pm
Paul,
doom knows everything so we listen to doom.
He knows two people so ……….
getalife,
Its pretty obvious that I know substantially more than you. You probably didn’t even graduate college. Your statements and appalling lack of knowledge regarding the field of economics pretty much prove it.
Royce
April 5th, 2011
5:00 pm
Basicially what Ryan is saying, the middle class (The American Workers) are so stupid we can tell them any kind of BS we dream up to steal the monies they have put into Social Security and Medicare – By doing this we will spare our prescious rich sponsors and big business from having to pay out one red cent to fix the deficit. MIDDLE CLASS AND WORKING AMERICANS LET’S STAND UP AND THE 2012 ELECTIONS AND SEND ALL OF THESE LOSERS A CLEAR CONCISE MESSAGE BY VOTING THEM ALL OUT OF OFFICE.
Del
April 5th, 2011
5:01 pm
Adam, how about Barrons, The Wall Street Journal. Sorry, but The Huffington Post, Media Matters or even The Brookings Institute wouldn’t influence me.
jm
April 5th, 2011
5:02 pm
Mother T 4:42 – the middle class, of which I’m a part, is getting the best deal out of anyone, across the income spectrum
Paul
April 5th, 2011
5:02 pm
Thulsa Doom
I forgot to add, in response to your question of how many people I know in those circumstances and how many, in addition to the two you cited, to prove the point:
Well, see, Thulsa, we have over 300 million people in this country. That’s why we make policy decisions, not on who we know or what our families have done, but on data gleaned from reliable sources regarding the numbers of people who may be in various categories.
Not based upon what we’ve seen in our home or on our block -
josef nix
April 5th, 2011
5:02 pm
mo of the same upstairs…
Adam
April 5th, 2011
5:03 pm
Thulsa: “Its disturbing to me that you believe other people control your life. That is just weak. Now if other people contol you and your life then that’s just too bad. Now go and do something about it!”
This is not what I was saying. This further proves though that you see any acknowledgement that other people do have influence on your life as some sort of weakness. That is not the case. It’s called REALITY. Now I do have control over my life, how I react, etc, but I don’t have a divine magic wand that makes everything go my way just because I made “right” choices.
So, what I am saying is, you can make all the wrong choices and still have an awesome life, and you can make all the right choices and have a really crappy one. Most of us are in the middle. Acknowledging that your own choices don’t determine ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING is called REALITY, not weakness.
That said, again, I have control over my life and my reactions and my own choices but I do NOT have control over the choices of others, whether or not those choices affect me directly or indirectly. No man is an island. Now GET REAL and stop being an idiot and thinking that all you have to do is make right choices and everything will just go your way.
BTW, you missed me saying earlier that I have an awesome job and I am quite happy with my life. I’m not making excuses, I’m speaking of philosophical arguments here.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
April 5th, 2011
5:04 pm
Josef…. I think there is a twist in this one. The silly proposition is that My ex-sister-in-law’s first cousin did not know anyone who was truly hurt by this or that so it must just an exaggeration.
Thulsa Doom
April 5th, 2011
5:04 pm
Good grief Paul, The people who end up homeless due to mental illness are about the only people that have no choice in their lives due to their illness. That’s it. Everyone else pretty much has the free will to make choices that determine their lives in respect to their career choices, education, work ethic, etc. You act like their are millions of mentally ill homeless people walking around everywhere. How utterly ridiulous. Seriously? Is that all you got?
Paul
April 5th, 2011
5:05 pm
Thulsa
“. Yes there are some people out there who the worst things happen to them. But its greatly exaggerated, there is and always will be a safety social net, ”
Let’s say your spouse or child comes down with thyroid cancer or bone cancer. Your health insurance policy doesn’t begin to cover the costs. You find treatment will cost in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.
Go into any hospital, state your case, say you want treatment and see what happens.
Your spouse or child will die. Even if you go bankrupt funding what treatment you can.
But they chose that, right?
Get Real
April 5th, 2011
5:05 pm
Adam …I have also worked extremely hard to be where I am and no one handed me anything. I have made my own breaks but the simple facts are there are a huge number of people that have come to expect the government to support them; it is their right/entitlement. In some cases, it has been carried on to the 3rd generation and the free lunch has got to wind down.
Now are there people that truly deserve assistance as their lot in life is not of their own making…absolutely. I am all for helping the helpless but I do not want a single dollar of my taxes going to help the clueless….it’s only enabling bad/stupid behavior..
Del
April 5th, 2011
5:06 pm
It seems as though for the left wing mind set it always loops back to higher taxes on the wealthy as the panacea for our country’s financial problems. It’s a failed policy guys, get into the 21st Century.
Paul
April 5th, 2011
5:07 pm
Headin’ upstairs.
Adam
April 5th, 2011
5:12 pm
Get Real: That is, at least, a reasonable argument. However I don’t know how you would be able to determine 100% who does it because they feel entitled and who doesn’t.
Adam
April 5th, 2011
5:13 pm
Del: That “failed policy” worked just fine before the 80s.
surgio
April 5th, 2011
5:15 pm
Jesus said is “what you do unto the least of these, you do unto me.” Jesus was/is a liberal, conservatives are the devil incarnate.
Get Real
April 5th, 2011
5:16 pm
Keep…..stand corrected on the super majority as I forgot about Brown in MA but I do not recall a budget even coming up for a vote. The democrats never wanted to pass a budget before the 2010 election which is the bottom line to my entire point. They were scared to do it before the election….period
Left wing management
April 5th, 2011
5:16 pm
The Paul Ryan rationale in nuce:
The Social Security trust fund doesn’t exist.
Besides, as it currently is it’s broken.
And anyway, things came up along the way, requiring that hard choices be made.
The trust fund was misconceived from the start …
..,and even though it might make perfect sense in theory, in practice it’s broken and we just have to accept it and move on.
And anyway, you didn’t really need it anyway.
Those making over the $160k limit, their rights are inviolable, unlike those of those whiners down below. I mean they’ve just been paying into the thing all this time. Which isn’t ultimately important you know, because, well, things change. Er, except for the absolute inviolability of the assertion that there shall be no tax increases on high earners, ever, for any reason.
poison pen
April 5th, 2011
5:17 pm
Jay
April 5th, 2011
2:26 pm
jm, I quote from the “full, detailed plan,” available at the link.
But I’m a little curious about your claim — are you saying we have to wait until it’s implemented until we learn what’s in it?
Jay, if it was good enough for Pelosi, which you supported, then it should be good enough for the Repubs.
I guess it’s something like the Obamacare paying for itself,snark,snark
Get Real
April 5th, 2011
5:19 pm
Adam, we better figure out some sort of metric because the gravy train has got to stop
Adam
April 5th, 2011
5:19 pm
Dave R: I see that you can’t even follow your own idea of presenting evidence. I mean, I did exactly what you did to make my case, and my case wasn’t good enough, so yours must not be either.
poison pen
April 5th, 2011
5:20 pm
Surgia, don’t turn off the lights tonight because the Devil will get you.
Thulsa Doom
April 5th, 2011
5:20 pm
Let’s say your spouse or child comes down with thyroid cancer or bone cancer. Your health insurance policy doesn’t begin to cover the costs. You find treatment will cost in the hundreds of thousands of dollars.- Paul
Paul,
Absolute and total BS. I know because I own an insurance agency. I deal with all the big insurance plans and every single one of them would pay. First of all if you have a high deductible its not like car insurance- you pay the deductible after treatment- not upfront.
Secondly all of the plans will work out a payment plan with you on the deductible and any applicable co-insurance.
Thirdly, even with a super high deductible $5k and typical 20% co-insurance you would owe $7500 on a 300k bill and the payments would be worked out. And if you couldn’t even pay small amounts towards that there are charities that will step in and assist.
You’ve been busted huge time Paul. You have not a single clue as to what the hell you are talking about even with a hypothetical.
Get Real
April 5th, 2011
5:22 pm
TD….good post
Abrazos
April 5th, 2011
5:22 pm
Although I share the same self-directed spirit as Thulsa Doom, it would be naive to believe that one has total control over every aspect of one’s life. If I had the power to kick Wall Street’s a** over the decisions that resulted in a 40% hit on my portfolio in 2008-09 (along with most everyone else’s), believe me, I’d do it. I plan for the best, prepare for the worst, but at no time am I so delusional to believe that I have complete power over every aspect that intersects with my universe.
Thulsa Doom
April 5th, 2011
5:23 pm
Paul- you have been exposed and going forward you have zero credibility. None. You should start doing some real reading and not listen to Dem talking points about recission, etc.
Obama talked about a guy dying from having his insurance dropped in the middle of treatment. Turned out to be complete bs just like you are.
Thulsa Doom
April 5th, 2011
5:25 pm
Abrazos,
There will always be things such as stock market performance that we don’t have total control over. I’m simply making the point that our stations in life are largely self determined.
yuzeyurbrane
April 5th, 2011
5:42 pm
Legally, what the Social Security Trust Fund has done is the prudent step of investing its surpluses into the most conservative of investments, U.S. Govt. bonds so they could earn interest to help in the lean days. This was the intent of Reagan and the Democrats when they compromised in the early 1980’s. Seniors have just as much right to the principle and interest as other bondholders…such as China. Now Ryan is saying to steal from our Seniors but to honor our debts to China. We’re talking about a few trillion dollars. Even an idiot could balance a budget with such a massive theft.
1811/1801 - 0311/0317
April 5th, 2011
5:49 pm
“Fire in the hole” !!!
Billybob
April 5th, 2011
6:12 pm
“Wow, let’s at least try to address this with some level of seriousness, shall we?”
Bookman,
Your idea of seriousness is playing the lib 101 class warfare template and then throwing out the term ‘fairness’, which in lib terms means gub’t will take care of you(redistribution/socialism). Seriousness doesn’t involve Obama today saying he will not allow economic political games to be played because he can’t run his gov’t based on two weeks of a budget. The dems had from Jan 2010 thru Aug 2010 to present a budget….and based 100% on political games(the Nov 2010 election) refused to present one under the watchful eye of the community-organizer-in-chief barrack hussein obama(is that serioousness?)……Obama’s spending, legislation, and huge budget deficits have caused economic destruction in the same light Obama says his agencies will be dealing with if we have a gov’t shutdown(How serious is it for hussein to create total uncertainty in the private sector for 2 years and then turn around and whine about his gub’t agencies feeling a small amount of uncertainty in comparison?)…..If you want serious issues discussed and fixed then you and your ilk need to vote out all of the dems that currently are decrying Ryan’s attempt to fix the problem in the most UN-serious way possible…….ie. repubs plan will kill old people, hurt middle class, etc….people are starting to see through this…..but pleae keep talking like this, you are doing great FOR CONSERVATISM