The Ryan budget plan, Part II: Medicare
In his so-called “Path to Prosperity,” U.S. Rep. Paul Ryan pledges to “preserve America’s social contract with retired workers” by rescuing Medicare from collapse.
“Current retirees deserve the benefits around which they organized their lives,” the plan states. “Future generations deserve health and retirement security they can count on.”
Who's on Medicare? They are, and if you're lucky, you will be too someday. (AP photo)
There’s no question that Medicare is in real trouble. It is already placing enormous pressure on the federal budget, and once the Baby Boom generation begins to retire and claim their benefits, the stress will become untenable. Unfortunately, Ryan proposes to save Medicare by destroying it.
First, some basics. Under Ryan’s plan, Americans 55 and older will be guaranteed standard Medicare benefits. However, those who turn 65 after 2021 will be placed on an entirely different plan. They will in effect be given taxpayer-funded vouchers that they can use to purchase insurance from government-run exchanges, much like the much despised ObamaCare model.
However, those vouchers will not cover the entire cost of health insurance for those retirees. In fact, under the proposed formula, by 2021 those vouchers would probably cover roughly three-fourths of the cost of current Medicare coverage, and that percentage would decline in each succeeding year. Senior citizens would be forced to cover the difference out of their own pockets.
For some retirees, that would be manageable (the plan envisions unspecified higher subsidies for low-income retirees and those with more serious health problems.) But for others it would not, particularly as private and public pension plans falter and proposals are made to slash Social Security.
Ryan argues that the change from a government-managed plan to a voucher plan would actually drive down the cost of health insurance and make it more affordable for retirees. As the plan describes it, “50 million empowered seniors holding providers accountable in a true marketplace” will be more effective than the government in driving down health care and insurance costs.
“Putting patients in charge of how their health care dollars are spent will force providers to compete against each other on price and quality,” the plan argues. “That’s how markets work: The customer is the ultimate guarantor of value.”
There’s an idealism in that claim that is almost charming. The problem is, we have considerable data proving that such belief is nonsense. We know, for example, that since 1970, per capita costs for Medicare coverage have risen more slowly than per capita costs for private medical insurance. Ryan himself acknowledges that fact, complaining that Medicare pays hospitals and doctors less than private insurers while also claiming that “the open-ended, blank-check nature of the Medicare subsidy drives health-care inflation at an astonishing pace.”
When you make an apples-to-apples comparison in what are called common costs — defined as “benefits commonly covered by (both) Medicare and private health insurance” — the price-containment difference is even more stark. Since 1997, the per capita cost for such benefits provided by Medicare has risen at an average annual rate of 4.1 percent, compared to a rise of 6.6 percent among private insurers, a difference of more than 50 percent.
The truth is, individuals in the confusing, frightening and complicated health-care marketplace don’t have the information or analytical skills needed to drive a hard bargain with providers. That’s particularly true of an elderly demographic. If you doubt that, walk into a hospital and try to negotiate a better price for a knee replacement than Aetna or BlueCross has negotiated, using their experts and market power. You can’t do it.
These are not surprises. Nor are they design flaws. The Congressional Budget Office, in an analysis of the Medicare plan requested by Ryan, laid out its impacts in a letter last fall.
“Voucher recipients would probably have to purchase less extensive coverage or pay higher premiums than they would under current law, for two reasons. First, most of the savings for Medicare under the proposal stem from reducing the amounts that the federal government would pay for enrollees on a per capita basis, relative to the projections under current law. Second, future beneficiaries would probably face higher premiums in the private market for a package of benefits similar to that currently provided by Medicare.
For both Medicare and Medicaid, the budgetary effects would become larger over time because federal payments would tend to grow more slowly under the proposal than projected costs per enrollee under current law. Although the level of expected federal spending and the uncertainty surrounding that spending would decline, enrollees’ spending for health care and the uncertainty surrounding that spending would increase.”
Ryan bristles at the description of his approach as a voucher plan, preferring the term “premium support program,” but that’s what it is. But it’s a voucher plan. Through Medicare, this country has made a commitment to its senior citizens that they will not be denied needed medical care because they can’t afford it.
The Ryan approach to Medicare reform abandons that commitment. The best thing that can be said about it — and it’s a contribution not to be belittled — is that this proposal begins a much-needed conversation about how to tackle one of the most serious financial challenges facing us as a society.
That word, by the way, was not chosen lightly. How we treat our senior citizens is an issue for our society, not our government, to solve. It is a challenge to our values, our morals, our ethics and our humanity.
– Jay Bookman
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680 comments Add your comment
WOW
April 5th, 2011
7:25 pm
“When you mention the “Hymie Town” remarks, could you say that you have never used a racial pejorative relative to others?”
No.
“Secondly, the Duke LaCrosse incident had nothing to do with Jesse Jackson or Al Sharpton.”
Interview with Bill O’Reilly about the Duke Lacrosse case from 2009.
REV. AL SHARPTON, CIVIL RIGHTS ACTIVIST: I think that there are certainly a lot of racial factors. Whether it is directly in the case, we’ll see, because some reports said that there was racial language used. But I think that when you look at the racial atmosphere, when you look at the fact that there again were the allegations of racial statements, when you look at a lot of people feeling that they have been treated differently, where this girl has basically had a character charged in the media, there is a lot of racism that’s in the air.
SHARPTON: But I think that all of the facts that you have laid out the DA had — and I know this DA is probably not one that is crazy. He would not have proceeded if he did not feel that he could convict. So it tells me that all of what you said is either not true or he has convincing evidence that would certainly knock that out and no one is not letting him proceed.
Jesse Jackson article
Duke: Horror and Truth
By Reverend Jesse L. Jackson, Sr.
© Tribune Media Services
“Divorced Mother Of Two, Working Way Through College, Allegedly Raped, Abused By Gang.” Had the headline read that way, the fury would have been great. The facts that the police didn’t arrest anyone, that the gang was not talking, that it took two days for the police to search the scene of the crime would have added to the anger.
But that’s not how it was reported. Rather, it was reported that a black stripper was accusing members of the Duke lacrosse team of rape after she and another woman were hired to dance for them at a party. That method of reportage put race and class in the center of the story. Predictably, the right-wing media machine has kicked in, prompting mean-spirited attacks upon the accuser’s character. Rush Limbaugh called the two women strippers “hoes,” and later apologized saying “I regret you heard me say that.” And Michael Savage referred to the alleged victim as a “Durham dirt-bag” and “dirty, verminous black stripper”. And, it is in this tense atmosphere that the accuser flees from home to home, fearing for her safety. The players got lawyers immediately, who advised them to talk to no one. Duke University boosters hired big-time legal gunslinger Bob Bennett – who counts the Catholic Church as well as then-president Bill Clinton among his clients – to step in as spokesman for the newly-formed “Committee for Fairness to Duke Families”.
http://www.blacknews.com/pr/duke301.html
“Was Mr. Nifon a race-baiter?’
No, he was an idiot who who was disbarred for lying.
Smeat
April 5th, 2011
7:26 pm
The Obama Weiner Dog… PERFECT !!
I should trademark it right now !!
Ya got ur hotdog with a logo of Barry’s face on a dachshund.
Or you could even make ballons that blow up into weiner dogs with his face on them !!
Thulsa Doom
April 5th, 2011
7:27 pm
Leftwingmanagement,
There’s no luck in me working 70-80 hours in the past so that now I can screw around and spend time blogging. The capitalistic system has raised more boats out of poverty than any other system. And the fact of the matter is that poor people in this country have more material wealth in the form of square living space, appliances and tvs, cars, internet access, indoor plumbing, clothing, access to health care, etc than 90% of the world’s populace. When my dad lived in Germany his middle class German landlord couldn’t afford a car as many average Germans couldn’t. But there are a lot of “poor” people here who have cars.
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
April 5th, 2011
7:27 pm
He wasn’t a race baiting moron like Jesse and Al. He didn’t make a living off of suing companies and demonizing other people. He also didn’t go around saying he was going to cut the nuts off of people.
I’m willing to bet that Whites in the 1960’s considered MLK to be the ultimate race baiter, but that point is moot. Neither Jesse nor Al make a living demonizing people. If that’s the case, then they are no different than Rush, as both Al and Rush have radio talk-shows that pay them to say the things they say. When you see Al or Jesse speaking, it’s usually because someone has asked them to do that. They don’t just go around looking for things to insert themselves into.
F. Sinkwich
April 5th, 2011
7:28 pm
“He was aggravated today.”
Mary Elizabeth was blogging in his support.
WOW
April 5th, 2011
7:28 pm
“I’m willing to bet that Whites in the 1960’s”
Then get that flux capacitor ready and head back in time in your Delorean to find out.
md
April 5th, 2011
7:29 pm
“The capitalistic system has raised more boats out of poverty than any other system.”
One needs only to look at China for the truth about “systems/societies”……..the communal saved by capitalism………..
Keep Up the Good Fight!
April 5th, 2011
7:29 pm
Ahhhh… See Nifong was a republican and therefore could not possibly truly the problem…you have to find a way to blame others…thus the blame of Sharpton and Jackson.
Mongo
April 5th, 2011
7:30 pm
Didn’t like Ryan on the Office, don’t like him in DC. His ideas are even dumber in real life.
Left wing management
April 5th, 2011
7:30 pm
WOW: ““MLK also preached social justice. / He wasn’t a race baiting moron like Jesse and Al.”
He was only agitating for the overthrow of the entire social structure of the Jim Crow South. He was a bomb thrower — of the best sort.
md: “Hence the reason for numerous of our problems today………………ie immigration……2 sets of rules.”
You mean like the “2 sets of rules” that apply to Wall Street speculators mass-producing toxic financial products to bing down our economy, big banks forging mortgage documents, or oil company CEO’s cutting corners with oil rigs ready to blow sky high over the Gulf of Mexico. Total number convicted of wrong-doing in each of these cases (exluding Bernie Madoff in case of financial fraud): ZERO.
Now if you or I try perpetrating some garden variety act of fraud or malfeasance, how much leniency do you think we’ll get? ZERO
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
April 5th, 2011
7:30 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAniDGqyy7I&feature=player_embedded
WOW
April 5th, 2011
7:30 pm
“See Nifong was a republican”
Another ridiculous lie by Keep.
Mike Nifong
Political party Democratic
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mike_Nifong
Jackie
April 5th, 2011
7:31 pm
@Thulsa Doom
Al Sharpton WAS NOT the first one to come forth the Duke lacrosse story; it was others in Durham, NC who felt the DA was going to exploit this young woman for political purposes. Al Sharpton had his clocked cleaned on the Tawana Brawley story because he believed what the young woman kept repeating.
As for black people following Al Sharpton, wonder what you thought about black people who felt the need to follow Dr. King?; Rev. Fred Shuttlesworth?; Rev. C.T. Vivian?; the Manning, SC civil rights movement? Were all black people sufficiently duped by these “leaders?”
As an aside, if you followed the lead of Ronald Reagan, how does that make you feel since history has shown many of his unconstitutional and illegal actions?
ty webb
April 5th, 2011
7:31 pm
“They don’t just go around looking for things to insert themselves into.”
wait…that’s a joke right.
Soothsayer
April 5th, 2011
7:32 pm
“Well, you’ll all be glad to know that I’ve solved my drinking problem. I joined Alcoholics Anonymous. Oh, I still drink, I just changed my name.”
“Yesterday, I went to the doctor and gave a urine sample. It had an olive in it!”
—Rodney Dangerfield
WOW
April 5th, 2011
7:32 pm
“As an aside, if you followed the lead of Ronald Reagan, how does that make you feel since history has shown many of his unconstitutional and illegal actions?”
Oh goody, now Jackie is blaming Reagan. LOL
Keep Up the Good Fight!
April 5th, 2011
7:33 pm
I guess personal responsibility does not include keeping count so not to exceed their post limit.
Oh by the way, I can admit I was wrong about his party…..
F. Sinkwich
April 5th, 2011
7:33 pm
“He was aggravated today.”
He found that no one actually believes So Com’s contention that Al and Jessie aren’t race-baiting extortionists.
Don't Forget
April 5th, 2011
7:33 pm
Seriously, do ANY of you have an opinion on what the monthly premium would be for a 75 year old woman with hypertension and diabetes?
Moderate Line
April 5th, 2011
7:35 pm
Through Medicare, this country has made a commitment to its senior citizens that they will not be denied needed medical care because they can’t afford it.
The Ryan approach to Medicare reform abandons that commitment
++++
The county never made such a commitment if so the taxes would be there to pay for it. The program has been underfunded from inception.
All that being said I think Ryan’s solution is a gimmick. It’s about avoiding the consequences of angering current recipients at the expense of future recipients which means people paying medicare taxes now will pay more and receive less.
As bad as this solution is what have the Democrats come up with. Nothing. I don’t believe Ryan’s solution will pass but I believe this issue can not be put off much longer.
F. Sinkwich
April 5th, 2011
7:35 pm
“He was aggravated today.”
Someone proved Keep is a liar.
Thulsa Doom
April 5th, 2011
7:36 pm
jackie,
I didn’t say al sharpton was the first- merely that he was also out front at first. And if Al got his clock cleaned on tawana brawley then why and how does the black community look up to such a shameful man who helped perpetuate this fraud. If anything it made a hero of him.
Dr. King, Ralph Abernathy, Hosea WIlliams- all great man that I have no qualms with.
Reagan has nothing to do with this. You are really reaching with that one. And what and where are all of his “unconstitutional and Illegal” actions. Iran- contra- it was already shown he had no knowledge of this. SO of what do you speak?
md
April 5th, 2011
7:36 pm
“You mean like the “2 sets of rules” that apply to Wall Street speculators mass-producing toxic financial products to bing down our economy, big banks forging mortgage documents, or oil company CEO’s cutting corners with oil rigs ready to blow sky high over the Gulf of Mexico.”
Yes……..
Hillbilly Deluxe
April 5th, 2011
7:36 pm
His party affiliation is irrelevant, Mike Nifong, was an opportunist politician who thought he’d found a hot ticket to election and didn’t give a damn about anything else. Fortunately, he got caught and disbarred. He should have spent a little time in the pen, too, in my opinion.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
April 5th, 2011
7:36 pm
Sinkwich, it ws proved I made a mistake, do prove I lied. Perhaps I should say….why dont you know it was sarcasm? That seems to be the excuse used by others.
Jackie
April 5th, 2011
7:38 pm
@WOW
Oh goody, I am blaming YOU!!!!!
Did you ever notice how you try to change the subject when you have a difficult question to answer?
Smeat
April 5th, 2011
7:39 pm
Dear Don’t Forget,
The Death Panels would certainly see to her demise much sooner in order to avert huge medical bills adding up for the collective.
Soothsayer
April 5th, 2011
7:39 pm
he online survey of 2,242 U.S. adults found an overwhelming majority (96%) of Americans “strongly” or “somewhat” favor Medicare, the medical assistance program for the elderly and disabled, while 91% say they support Medicaid, the program to assist people with very low incomes.
From the Wall Street Journal
This is just too perfect! First, the Republicans shoot themselves in the foot in Wisconsin. Now this. I love it! Good luck in 2012!
Jackie
April 5th, 2011
7:40 pm
@Thulsa
Again, you are trying to sweep everything into one arena when it suits your purposes, yet, you fail to acknowledge the fact that you may have followed Ronald Reagan down that path that put this country in the greatest constitutional crisis in modern history. Am I wrong?
WOW
April 5th, 2011
7:40 pm
“Did you ever notice how you try to change the subject when you have a difficult question to answer?”
I answered your questions with facts about Jesse and Al, Jackie. Your nonsense is irrelevant.
Left wing management
April 5th, 2011
7:40 pm
Thulsa Doom: “The capitalistic system has raised more boats out of poverty than any other system.”
Before you get too carried away with your cheerleading about capitalism, let me remind you that capitalism has also ripped up and transformed traditional social institutions root and branch and wrought untold suffering on vast numbers of people. This was well expressed by Marx himself, who as much as anyone recognized the incredible power of capitalism and opportunities that it introduces into human history:
“The bourgeoisie, wherever it has got the upper hand, has put an end to all feudal, patriarchal, idyllic relations. It … has left remaining no other nexus between man and man than naked self-interest, than callous “cash payment” … for exploitation, veiled by religious and political illusions, it has substituted naked, shameless, direct, brutal exploitation … Constant revolutionizing of production, uninterrupted disturbance of all social conditions, everlasting uncertainty and agitation distinguish the bourgeois epoch from all earlier ones … All that is solid melts into air, all that is holy is profaned, and man is at last compelled to face with sober senses, his real conditions of life, and his relations with his kind.”
md: “One needs only to look at China for the truth about “systems/societies”……..the communal saved by capitalism………..”
Are you sure about that? Are you sure it might not be the other way around? It’s not at all clear yet with China what exactly has been saved or what has done the saving.
ty webb
April 5th, 2011
7:41 pm
“Am I wrong?”
yes.
WOW
April 5th, 2011
7:41 pm
“he online survey of 2,242 U.S. adults found an overwhelming majority (96%) of Americans “strongly” or “somewhat” favor Medicare, the medical assistance program for the elderly and disabled, while 91% say they support Medicaid, the program to assist people with very low incomes.”
Good luck to those who will wake up one day to find that their precious government cheese is bankrupt.
josef nix
April 5th, 2011
7:41 pm
ty
I was thinking that @ 7:24 myself…
Jackie
“The black/white dichotomy is an issue that will not go away because it appears there are many who like sound bites to solve a festering problem”
The point I am trying to make here is that the black-white dichotomy conveniently ignores brown, red and yellow. Take a look at the 20 poorest places in America as posted by SoCo earlier…what do you see?
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
April 5th, 2011
7:42 pm
And if Al got his clock cleaned on tawana brawley then why and how does the black community look up to such a shameful man who helped perpetuate this fraud.
They look up to him for the same reason that you despise him. Different people have different perspectives, perceptions and opinions. Your opinion of him is yours, and nobody else has to agree with it or like it, just as you don’t have to agree with or like anyone else’s opinion.
md
April 5th, 2011
7:43 pm
“he online survey of 2,242 U.S. adults found an overwhelming majority (96%) of Americans “strongly” or “somewhat” favor Medicare, the medical assistance program for the elderly and disabled, while 91% say they support Medicaid, the program to assist people with very low incomes.”
And I favor getting a new Lamborghini…………
Don't Forget
April 5th, 2011
7:44 pm
Smeat, death panels?? Really?? lol
Soothsayer
April 5th, 2011
7:46 pm
“Good luck to those who will wake up one day to find that their precious government cheese is bankrupt.”
I wonder how many of those 90+% would be willing to pay slightly more than the current 1.45% (I know about the employer’s portion so you don’t have to bring it up) of the gross pay to keep Medicare going.
In fact:
Six In 10 Americans Support Opening Medicare as a “Public Option” to the Private Insurance Market; Public Willing To Pay Through Payroll Deductions
ty webb
April 5th, 2011
7:48 pm
“Your opinion of him is yours, and nobody else has to agree with it or like it, just as you don’t have to agree with or like anyone else’s opinion.”
here here Soco, but then again his opinion of sharpton does not reflect his opinion of the “minority community”, as “jackie” stated so race-baitingly well.
Left wing management
April 5th, 2011
7:49 pm
Soothsayer:
Anthony Wiener was right: if Obama had simply branded the health reform as “Medicare for EVERYONE”, a single-payer system could well have sailed right through with overwhelming public support.
Soothsayer
April 5th, 2011
7:49 pm
“And I favor getting a new Lamborghini…”
This is just too perfect. The Republicans in total and complete Fustercluck mode. Playing to the extreme Right Tea Party nutcases while alienating themselves to those who really matter the “middle 50%” who are generally unaligned with any party.
Just wait. 2012 is going to be a landslide.
Smeat
April 5th, 2011
7:49 pm
When you quote Marx you get
GONG, GONG, GONG, GONG, GONG !!!!!
Cuckoo, Cuckoo, Cuckoo !!
Dear blogger come out into the sunlight. It is the best disinfectant.
Hillbilly Deluxe
April 5th, 2011
7:51 pm
If I remember correctly, Hosea Williams and Ralph Abernathy, among others, didn’t have a very high opinion of Jesse Jackson, either.
Thulsa Doom
April 5th, 2011
7:51 pm
Southern Comfort,
I understand all that about different perceptions and whatnot.
I just don’t understand how an entire group of people can look up to and admire a buffoon who made his mark by perpetrating such a fraud as Tawana Brawley.
You can splain it till you’re blue in the face and it still aint gonna make a hill a beans worth of sense to me. MLK I understand- he was a truly great man. But Al Sharpton? Or Louis Farrakhan another race baiting hater?
md
April 5th, 2011
7:51 pm
“Are you sure about that? Are you sure it might not be the other way around? It’s not at all clear yet with China what exactly has been saved or what has done the saving.”
Please……….they were stuck in the mud for generations until they opened up the markets…….other way around?? Highly doubtful…….that system failed year over year.
“Chinese productivity increased at an annual rate of 3.9 percent during 1979-94, compared with 1.1 percent during 1953-78. By the early 1990s, productivity’s share of output growth exceeded 50 percent, while the share contributed by capital formation fell below 33 percent. Such explosive growth in productivity is remarkable–the U.S. productivity growth rate averaged 0.4 percent during 1960-89–and enviable, since productivity-led growth is more likely to be sustained. Analysis of the pre- and post-1978 periods indicates that the market-oriented reforms undertaken by China were critical in creating this productivity boom.”
ty webb
April 5th, 2011
7:51 pm
“Anthony Wiener was right: if Obama had simply branded the health reform as “Medicare for EVERYONE”, a single-payer system could well have sailed right through with overwhelming public support.”
sadly I agree, “society” is that dumb.
Adam
April 5th, 2011
7:52 pm
If you don’t like Marxism, then stop creating a pro-capitalist corporate welfare state, while cutting any and all funding for the middle class and the poor, raising their taxes while reducing taxes on the top 1%, etc. You’re headed straight for a Marxist revolution if you don’t at least TRY to care about someone other than the rich.
Adam
April 5th, 2011
7:53 pm
In short, if you hate Marx stop trying to make his predictions come true.
Soothsayer
April 5th, 2011
7:53 pm
Yes, friends and neighbors, let’s throw Granny under the bus so we can afford Pentagon budgets that are approaching $1,500,000,000,000.00 ($1.5 trillion) a year. Yes, by God! NO SOCIALISM! At least not for Granny but yes, for the Military Industrial Complex.
Smeat
April 5th, 2011
7:56 pm
That Weiner up there in New York. He’s awesome !!
Have you seen his logo?
http://www.weinerfacts.com/storage/layout/images/Header.jpg
WOW
April 5th, 2011
7:57 pm
“Anthony Wiener was right:”
Weiner wants a waiver for NYC from Obamacare. LOL
Thulsa Doom
April 5th, 2011
7:57 pm
Hillbilly Deluxe
April 5th, 2011
7:51 pm
If I remember correctly, Hosea Williams and Ralph Abernathy, among others, didn’t have a very high opinion of Jesse Jackson, either.
Hillbilly,
I’ve read the same thing also. It seemed there was a rift when MLK died because of Jesse’s opportunism. He was nowhere near the scene but he showed up on national tv that night in a red stained shirt and claimed he held MLK as he died. Ticked off a lot of the veteran civil right’s leadership but it was kinda brushed under the rug in order to keep unity. But they knew then and there what an opportunist Jesse was. When you think about it that was a pretty despicable act.
Hosea Williams I read was ostracized a little bit later on because of embarrassing run ins with the law- all the DUIs. But I liked HOsea- he really was a true advocate and he had his annual Thanksgiving charity where he did raise a lot of money and feed a lot of people. He just had some alcohol issues is all.
Jackie
April 5th, 2011
7:57 pm
@WOW
Of course you would say “my nonsense is irrelevant” because the sophomoric hyperbole is ancedotal and without merit.
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
April 5th, 2011
7:57 pm
I just don’t understand how an entire group of people can look up to and admire a buffoon who made his mark by perpetrating such a fraud as Tawana Brawley.
Thinking along the same lines, I just don’t understand how an entire group of people can look up to and admire a jackass who made his mark by perpetrating such a fraud as claiming that government was the problem, yet people think he was the answer. People also laud that jackass as the epitome of conservatism, when he had some of the record highest tax increases for any president up until recent history. He also exploded the deficit and tacked on huge debt by his “tax cut” policies that have become a pseudo-religion now.
You can splain that to me until you’re blue in the face, but it still won’t make sense to me. That’s just how opinions work. You really don’t have to understand it. If you understand perceptions and whatnots, you also understand what you say you don’t. You just don’t want to acknowledge it.
F. Sinkwich
April 5th, 2011
7:58 pm
“He was aggravated today.”
He learned that Soothsayer is an idiot.
Hillbilly Deluxe
April 5th, 2011
7:59 pm
if Obama had simply branded the health reform as “Medicare for EVERYONE”, a single-payer system could well have sailed right through with overwhelming public support.
I think it would have had a lot more chance of popular acceptance than the program he got through. I said at the time, that I think his biggest mistake was not taking the lead and handing it off to Reid and Pelosi. I think there was a real chance to fix a lot of problems in the health care system but that it was squandered. It’ll probably be 20-30 years before that chance comes around again. I think the bill that passed should really have been titled the Health Insurance Company Relief Act. That’s who will benefit the most from it, in my opinion.
josef nix
April 5th, 2011
7:59 pm
Hillbilly
Brother Hosea didn’t hold a LOT of people in very high esteem. I count myself one lucky SOB to have had the opportunity to chew the fat with him.
Smeat
April 5th, 2011
7:59 pm
They’re here….
Whoopie !!
Democratic Socialists of America and Communist Party USA.
Not Troll …. hmmmm … KGB nah? … Soros Employee? YES !!!!!!
F. Sinkwich
April 5th, 2011
7:59 pm
“He was aggravated today.”
After a few beers Michelle wouldn’t dress up like Lady GaGa.
Left wing management
April 5th, 2011
8:00 pm
Smeat: “When you quote Marx you get GONG ”
You seem a little threatened!
Whatsa matter, somebody teach you Karl Marx was a bad guy?
C’mon, who taught you that?
Smeat
April 5th, 2011
8:02 pm
Marx and Communism are bad dude !!
It ain’t happening here comrade !
Thulsa Doom
April 5th, 2011
8:03 pm
Leftwingmanagement at 7:40,
Your quote of Karl Marx was um, uh, well what can I say about someone who quotes Marx as an authority? For the record what Marx saw as capitalism such as in Russia was not capitalism- it was serfdom. And the bottom line is that while capitalism has its excesses it is vastly and has always been vastly superior to communism and socialism.
If you don’t believe that then take a look at probably the 2 most lassiz faire economies in Asia- Singapore and or Hong Kong, and compare them with the most state controlled economy- North Korea. Are you starting to get the picture LWM?
Hillbilly Deluxe
April 5th, 2011
8:04 pm
josef, Thulsa
Josef and I have had this discussion before but I think some of the leaders in the Movement, looked down on Hosea. He came from humble beginnings and a lot of them were upper class. I think that’s one reason Hosea and Lester Maddox got along. Both of them were trying to look out for the common people in their constituencies and they were both looked down on by the ruling elites, of their respective groups.
Soothsayer
April 5th, 2011
8:04 pm
Karl Marx, interestingly enough, was born to a Jewish father. He later converted to Lutheranism. Karl Marx was German, not Russian, as many people might think. Karl Marx’ work received little attention until years after his death. Only in the late 19th century did his work become noticed and not until the Russian revolution did his name become a household word.
Thulsa Doom
April 5th, 2011
8:05 pm
Left wing management,
Karl Marx was a great guy. The starving people of North Korea will tell you so.
Smeat
April 5th, 2011
8:05 pm
LWM,
Is it just Marxism or Democratic Socialism or Communist Party USA?
WOW
April 5th, 2011
8:06 pm
“Whatsa matter, somebody teach you Karl Marx was a bad guy? ”
Communism killed over 40 million people in China over 20 million in the USSR. Yeah, he was a bad dude.
Left wing management
April 5th, 2011
8:07 pm
Hillbilly Deluxe: ” think there was a real chance to fix a lot of problems in the health care system but that it was squandered. It’ll probably be 20-30 years before that chance comes around again. I think the bill that passed should really have been titled the Health Insurance Company Relief Act. That’s who will benefit the most from it, in my opinion.”
Well said. And for that we can probably thank the team of Emanuel, Summers, and others (not sure about Axelrod). But end of the day, Obama himself holds the blame. He was never really committed to the so-called ‘public option’. Striking how a candidate who made such a point of doing bold things, wrapped in bold rhetoric, as a matter of course starts out by defining down what can be accomplished, thereby ceding the initiative to his opponents (who have no qualms about going for broke). Guess for him it really was just rhetoric.
Thulsa Doom
April 5th, 2011
8:08 pm
Hillbilly Deluxe,
That’s a very true description of Hosea Williams. He wasn’t very articulate- not very educated. But the guy had a big heart and whether you agree or disagree with the man his heart was in the right place. He never became wealthy from his efforts- he wasn’t no limousine liberal- he just helped people.
F. Sinkwich
April 5th, 2011
8:08 pm
“He was aggravated today.”
Someone asked him how his foreign policy differed from GWB.
Starving North Korean
April 5th, 2011
8:09 pm
Me loves me some Karl Marx
Wealthy South Korean
April 5th, 2011
8:10 pm
Me loves me some capitalism.
Lil' Barry Bailout
April 5th, 2011
8:10 pm
Where is the Democrat plan to fix the Idiot Messiah’s spending problem and reform entitlements?
Billybob
April 5th, 2011
8:10 pm
LWM, 7:40
It was all about the messaging huh? and capitalism has wrought untold suffering on vast numbers of people? then a Marx quote? You are definitely a barrack hussein obama marxist sympathizer/supporter huh? A democrat right? Keep talking and exposing who is running the dem party so 2012 will be an even bigger election for conservatives……thank you for your service to the conservative ascendency…..
Left wing management
April 5th, 2011
8:10 pm
WOW: “Communism killed over 40 million people in China over 20 million in the USSR. Yeah, he was a bad dude.”
Did communism kills those people?
More specifically, is it equivalent to say “communism killed X number of people in China, Russia” and “Hitler killed X number of people in the Holocaust”? It’s a serious question.
josef nix
April 5th, 2011
8:10 pm
SoCo
A new one at St Elsewhere…
Doggone/GA
April 5th, 2011
8:11 pm
“Communism killed over 40 million people in China over 20 million in the USSR. Yeah, he was a bad dude”
Communism didn’t kill anyone. PEOPLE killed them
WOW
April 5th, 2011
8:12 pm
“Did communism kills those people? ”
Yes, starving millions of people in the name of “equality” killed millions of people.
WOW
April 5th, 2011
8:12 pm
“Communism didn’t kill anyone. PEOPLE killed them’
Those PEOPLE were communists.
Smeat
April 5th, 2011
8:12 pm
If you’re reading and postulating Marx don’t forget to share quotes from Mein Kampf .
Hillbilly Deluxe
April 5th, 2011
8:13 pm
Thulsa
Actually, Hosea was a chemist. He held a master’s degree. So, he was educated and I never met him but I do know people that knew him and ever one of them says he was smart as a whip. He just didn’t let it change the person that he was. He stayed true to his roots.
DKW
April 5th, 2011
8:13 pm
At least rep. Ryan is willing to take on the issue. All the liberal democrats do is complain. I haven’t seen a plan by the democrats on fixing Medicare, Medicaid, and/or Social Security.
Thulsa Doom
April 5th, 2011
8:14 pm
The offical tally
Hitler killed 6 million Jews
Stalin killed a minimum of 20 million of his own people but some experts believe the number to be closer to 30 million
Mao killed approximately 30 million in the great purges and some estimates say up to 40 million.
Get out your little red book Left wing management- Mao is the clear winner!
josef nix
April 5th, 2011
8:14 pm
Thulsa
I personally found Rev. Williams to be highly articulate and well read. He just didn’t feel obligated to put on airs.
Keep Up the Good Fight!
April 5th, 2011
8:14 pm
Some are rather tolerant of Christianity…how many millions have been killed in the name of Christ
But who’s counting….not some we see
getalife
April 5th, 2011
8:14 pm
The President scolded the children today.
Loved it.
He has plenty of ammunition to attack the gop this cycle.
Smeat
April 5th, 2011
8:15 pm
NAZI = National Socialist Workers Party
Doggone/GA
April 5th, 2011
8:16 pm
“Those PEOPLE were communists”
You DO realize that by making that distinction you are blaming a philosophy, and ABSOLVING the people…don’t you?
F. Sinkwich
April 5th, 2011
8:16 pm
“Where is the Democrat plan to fix the Idiot Messiah’s spending problem and reform entitlements?”
No plan. Lefties just want to demonize those who want to solve the problem which satiates their ignorant and stupid constituency.
Thulsa Doom
April 5th, 2011
8:16 pm
And who can forget Pol Pot’s year one pure communism experiment. Now Pol Pot was a piker in terms of pure numbers. He only killed 1 1/2 to 2 million of his own countrymen. But there were only 5 million of them at most to begin with. On a pure percentage basis of fellow countrymen killed Pol Pot wins in a landslide.
Anymore comments about how great communism is?
Hillbilly Deluxe
April 5th, 2011
8:18 pm
how many millions have been killed in the name of Christ
Millions have been killed in the name of freedom, too. It doesn’t make freedom a bad thing.
Soothsayer
April 5th, 2011
8:19 pm
Fish Sandwich:
“He learned that Soothsayer is an idiot.”
“Lefties just want to demonize those who want to solve the problem which satiates their ignorant and stupid constituency.”
No moderation, Jay?
Left wing management
April 5th, 2011
8:20 pm
Thulsa Doom: “For the record what Marx saw as capitalism such as in Russia was not capitalism- it was serfdom. ”
That’s one of the reasons he was in Manchester, at the time a hothouse of industrialization. But you knew that, right?
“And the bottom line is that while capitalism has its excesses it is vastly and has always been vastly superior to communism and socialism.”
Capitalism is defined by its excesses which was precisely Marx’s breakthrough.
Don't Forget
April 5th, 2011
8:20 pm
The main market china opened up was it’s labor market. It’s the desire for cheap labor that has boosted their productivity but, unfortunately, not their quality. And don’t forget that the chinese government not only subsidizes it’s industries it also keeps it’s currency undervalued to maintain it’s competitive edge. A capitalist miracle??? Hardly.
Smeat
April 5th, 2011
8:20 pm
“The President scolded the children today.”
LMAO — The weakling who couldn’t do ten push ups wagged his finger like a buffoon. Where’s his leadership?
“Uhhhhh….. You guys better work it out ! There’s no way I can go on the recond cuz I just announced my re-election campaign !” — BHO, April 5, 2011
Thulsa Doom
April 5th, 2011
8:21 pm
keep up the good fight,
Good point. How many people have the Christians killed? The crusades? A few hundred thousand I’m guessing. Maybe a million. I dunno. But was it 20 or 30 million overall? The Spanish Inquisition? Not sure. Thousands?
Native American populations-especially the ones conquered by Spanish conquistadores? Not sure. In the thousands but its important to remember many natives died from no resistance to European diseases- not from a pike.
Thulsa Doom
April 5th, 2011
8:26 pm
Left wing management,
I certainly knew marx wasn’t in Russia. Personally I thought he was in Germany at the time of his writings but I didn’t really keep up with where he was and at what point. Say that reminds me where was good ole Fred Engels btw? Not that it really matters.
And yes- we all know that he theorized a revolution would occur in an industralized western European nation and certainly not in Russia. You’re not really telling us anything we don’t really know.
josef nix
April 5th, 2011
8:26 pm
Question
Who posting here has read Marx or Mein Kampf?
Left wing management
April 5th, 2011
8:27 pm
Smeat: “If you’re reading and postulating Marx don’t forget to share quotes from Mein Kampf .”
Why bother citing Mein Kampf when I’m interested in serious attempts to understand political economy? Marx is not so much the opposite of Mein Kampf as it is in a different universe. Mein Kampf is a distillation of racial and political paranoia, while Marx’s writings provide essential insight into and critique of the nature of capitalism.
getalife
April 5th, 2011
8:27 pm
You can’t beat him meat and you know it.
Just admit it.