Cheating fears cast doubt on Rhee’s legacy in DC public schools
Michelle Rhee, former chancellor of public schools in Washington, D.C., became a conservative star of sorts for her willingness to take on the teachers’ union and the education establishment, among other things by firing teachers whose students did not improve on standardized testing. As chancellor, Rhee also instituted a lucrative bonus program for teachers and principals at schools that did show significant improvement.
The policy change had an effect; standardized scores rose significantly during Rhee’s three-year tenure. Eventually, however, her brash, combative style contributed to the re-election defeat of her most important champion, Washington Mayor Adrian Fenty, and last year Rhee was forced to resign as DC chancellor.
However, that career setback conferred martyr status on Rhee, who launched a nationwide speaking tour to spread her message of reform. Earlier this year, she was welcomed at the Georgia Capitol with a hearing in her honor in the Legislature and a private session with Gov. Nathan Deal.
However, as USA Today reports, the claim of sudden, significant improvement in DC schools might not bear close scrutiny. Consider, for example, Washington’s Crosby S. Noyes Education Campus, which was lauded by Rhee and others as a shining illustration of what her new approach could accomplish. In 2006, only 10 percent of Noyes students tested as profiicent or advanced in math; two years later, that number had jumped to 58 percent.
A USA TODAY investigation, based on documents and data secured under D.C.’s Freedom of Information Act, found that for the past three school years most of Noyes’ classrooms had extraordinarily high numbers of erasures on standardized tests. The consistent pattern was that wrong answers were erased and changed to right ones….
In 2007-08, six classrooms out of the eight taking tests at Noyes were flagged by McGraw-Hill because of high wrong-to-right erasure rates. The pattern was repeated in the 2008-09 and 2009-10 school years, when 80% of Noyes classrooms were flagged by McGraw-Hill.
On the 2009 reading test, for example, seventh-graders in one Noyes classroom averaged 12.7 wrong-to-right erasures per student on answer sheets; the average for seventh-graders in all D.C. schools on that test was less than 1. The odds are better for winning the Powerball grand prize than having that many erasures by chance, according to statisticians consulted by USA TODAY.
Is any of this beginning to sound familiar? How about this part?
“In 2008, the office of the State Superintendent of Education recommended that the scores of many schools be investigated because of unusually high gains, but top D.C. public school officials balked and the recommendation was dropped.
After the 2009 tests, the school district hired an outside investigator to look at eight D.C. public schools –– one of them was Noyes, USA TODAY learned — and to interview some teachers.
John Fremer, president of Caveon Consulting Services, the company D.C. hired, says the investigations were limited. The teachers were asked what they knew about the erasure rates but not whether cheating had taken place, Fremer says. They told Caveon that they “did what they were supposed to do and they didn’t do anything wrong,” he says.
Henderson, the D.C. chancellor, says D.C. educators interviewed by Caveon “gave specific reasons for high erasure rates. … Some emphasized to their students that (they) … should always go back, review their answers and make corrections, if needed.
“Other teachers,” she says, “encouraged students to eliminate wrong answers in the test booklet by marking an ‘X’ next to wrong answers, which could account for an unusual number of erasures if students marked their ‘X’ on the answer sheet instead of the test booklet.”
School district officials would not release the reports Caveon compiled. Caveon has been hired again to investigate the results of 2010 tests in which 41 DCPS schools, including Noyes, had at least one classroom flagged for high erasure rates. USA TODAY could not determine which schools are being scrutinized.”
Like Superintendent Beverly Hall, her counterpart in Atlanta, Rhee put great stress on standardized testing results. In fact, Rhee offered both more severe consequences for failure and more lucrative rewards for success than Hall has. And as in Hall’s case, she apparently showed little curiosity about how those results were being achieved. Pushing the story about reform became more important than pushing the mission of reform.
– Jay Bookman
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322 comments Add your comment
jm
March 28th, 2011
9:47 am
Bosch I recognize I’m using a broad brush. But the scale of disaster in APS is mind boggling. For all we know, this is the tip of the iceberg in DC.
kayaker 71
March 28th, 2011
9:47 am
So, if you are in charge, “you have an obligation to ensure that those results are accurate.” Man, how many times have we heard that story. However, when the scenario fits our agenda and the person is of a political persuasion that we want to support, how quickly we find excuses for them when they fail. We are willing to live with substandard results in many arenas just as long as the D or the R behind someone’s name fits our persuasion. Telling half truths always seems to accomplish the purpose it was set out to do….. make the other guy look bad. Fair? Not so much. I think that Rhee’s motives were far better than that. Can you imagine dealing with a solid political and social barrier like the DC school system? But let’s not put the blame on them…. no, let’s paint a picture of incompetence and inaptitude on someone who was trying to solve problems and improve the system. I don’t see how she lasted as long as she did.
WOW
March 28th, 2011
9:47 am
OFF TOPIC ONE:
Is Media Matters breaking the law in its ‘war’ on Fox News?
http://washingtonexaminer.com/blogs/beltway-confidential/2011/03/media-matters-breaking-law-its-war-fox-news
WOW
March 28th, 2011
9:48 am
“Bosch as usual you think you know all”
LOL!!!!!!!! Yeah, he has an answer for everything and at the same time offers nothing but diversions.
SEE: Did you sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night too?
jm
March 28th, 2011
9:49 am
RE, accuracy. I find the AJC’s reporting on various things, to be a bit, well, less than accurate sometimes.
Bosch
March 28th, 2011
9:50 am
“But the scale of disaster in APS is mind boggling.”
Melodrama much?
jm, didn’t realize you had unprecedented access to all school files, personell files, and test scores of all the kids in APS, the State of Georgia, and the United States of America.
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
March 28th, 2011
9:51 am
SoCo 9:42 – put him on an alternative track. But don’t stop testing. As they say: you can’t improve (ever) what you don’t measure.
An alternative track will not help a non-college child become college material. I know you’re all gung-ho on the STEM approach, but don’t lose sight of the fact that we will still need “wrench turners”. It’s all good to turn out engineers, but equipment breaks down, and wiring goes bad. If you don’t have people who can tend to those type of service issues, those degrees turn into nothing more than fancy wallpaper.
I have many cousins who would be the prototype vocational track student. They had no plans or goals of attending college. However, they have basic skills that most take for granted. Even though, they do not have college degrees, their skills are in demand because not everyone knows how to repair their own cars nor wire their homes.
Harry Callahan
March 28th, 2011
9:53 am
If you draw a graph of inflation-adjusted spending per pupil over hte last 50 years, and super-impose over it a graph of student achievment over the last 50 years, you’ll see a negative correlation between spending and student achievment.
But that won’t stop brain-dead liberals from blaming the complete and utter failure of public schools on lack of money.
These miserably failing schools are entirely under the thumb of leftist/Democrat beaurocrats and teachers unions, by the way, and have been for over a generation.
Mick
March 28th, 2011
9:54 am
I went to catholic school, I went to public school, some great teachers in both. In the end it was up to me to access my education and take responsibility for my future. I never thought to blame the teacher or school. Yes, I did have two teachers who shouldn’t have been there, both were fired eventually. As for the rest, all were moderate to great, especially the nuns – they literally kicked butt….
jconservative
March 28th, 2011
9:54 am
Keep the kids in school and additional hour each day and keep them in school and additional 50 days. Then scores will go up.
jm
March 28th, 2011
9:55 am
“If you are going to cut something, cut parks.” said Judge Mickle. Typical…. what a boob.
getalife
March 28th, 2011
9:55 am
I did acid all the time in high school. Quaaludes and other drugs too.
At my school during breaks, we lined the walls of the smoking area and passed joint after joint until the bell rang.
I did this wearing my football jersey so please forgive my writing skills.
Adam
March 28th, 2011
9:56 am
WOW: You’re suggesting that Jay needs to have a solution before he can say “hey this is a problem.” Fine then, apply that standard to yourself. Don’t criticize anyone unless you can do better.
jm
March 28th, 2011
9:56 am
SoCo 9:52 – by alternative track, I mean toward a “technical” career. Ie, I agree.
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
March 28th, 2011
9:57 am
But that won’t stop brain-dead liberals from blaming the complete and utter failure of public schools on lack of money.
It doesn’t seem to stop brain-dead conservatives from repeating the same tired arguments either. Oh well…..
jm
Ok… agreed!!
jm
March 28th, 2011
9:58 am
SoCo – I’d make the 8th grade test a big test. Smart – college track. Second tier – technical track. Then those kids would go to completely different kinds of high schools.
WOW
March 28th, 2011
10:00 am
“You’re suggesting that Jay needs to have a solution before he can say “hey this is a problem.” Fine then, apply that standard to yourself. Don’t criticize anyone unless you can do better.’
LOL!!!!!!! Heeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeere comes the nanny police!!!!!!!! Adam, I already offered solutions to the public school problem. It’s called getting rid of the wasteful dept. of education. We’ve wasted billions of tax dollars on that lousy failed experiment. It’s time for school choice. It’s also time to end the teachers unions all over the country.
WillieRae
March 28th, 2011
10:00 am
Rhee is a conservative and had to be attacked and eliminated.
Hall on the other hand has been less overtly political and has been protected as one of our own until the facts became overwhelming. It’s instructive to see that the AJC news reporting has led the way on the Hall story but the editorial writers have been silent. Hmmm?
Even now, the best Bookman can muster is a slap at Rhee in comparison.
Deep Throat
March 28th, 2011
10:00 am
Adam why are you criticizing others, can you do better ?
williebkind
March 28th, 2011
10:00 am
Here we go again! Only the liberals have the answer to education and that is let the parents do the teaching and give teachers more money. All school staff do is endoctrinate students toward liberalism. Money equals smart!
Bosch
March 28th, 2011
10:01 am
“Smart – college track. Second tier – technical track. Then those kids would go to completely different kinds of high schools.”
Again, you are assuming that kids in technical tracks are somehow less intelligent than kids in college prep tracks. Also, that sets the kids life up in the 8th freaking grade — that’s nuts.
WOW
March 28th, 2011
10:01 am
“I did acid all the time in high school. Quaaludes and other drugs too.”
That explains soooooooooooooooooooooooooooo much about the gibberish that comes out of getalifes keyboard.
Adam
March 28th, 2011
10:01 am
jm: They would go to the same high schools, but with more knowledge and get bored very fast. This would lead to them getting into trouble instead. The reform has to go all the way up the chain.
Adam
March 28th, 2011
10:02 am
Deep Throat: I forgot to mention that I am not applying that standard, WOW is. I was just pointing out the hypocrisy. As far as WOW is concerned, yes, I can and do. Every day.
Adam
March 28th, 2011
10:04 am
WOW: your “solution” isn’t a solution. It’s just ideology. Getting rid of the department of education and teachers’ unions will either make education WORSE, or nonexistant for people who can’t pay for it. Which is, I assume, what you actually want: keeping the poor people in their place.
getalife
March 28th, 2011
10:04 am
Wow,
My drug intake now would take down a elelphant.
All prescription drugs.
I can still mop the floor with you wow and half my brain was destroyed after a stroke.
Your debating skills are pathetic.
WOW
March 28th, 2011
10:04 am
“I forgot to mention that I am not applying that standard, WOW is. I was just pointing out the hypocrisy. As far as WOW is concerned, yes, I can and do. Every day.”
What hypocrisy, Adam? Jay refuses to write anything bad about Obama which is ridiculous considering the guy has extended many of Bush’s policies, added a new war, tripled the debt etc….
Sarah Palin, Newt Gingrich, Michelle Bachmann, Rhee etc are non-issues.
ty webb
March 28th, 2011
10:06 am
“keeping the poor people in their place.”
now that’s a motto the DNC can really get behind…My apologies to the newly unpartisan Bosch.
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
March 28th, 2011
10:06 am
jm
We did it all in one high school w/o the testing less than 30 years ago. The world, and education, has not changed that much in the past 30 years. People need to just quit trying to politicize education and look out for the interest of the next generation instead of looking out for their own.
Mary Elizabeth
March 28th, 2011
10:06 am
Private schools are not the answer for educating the masses of of children in Georgia; improving public schools is the answer.( My earlier posts, today, give one way to improve public schools.) Private schools will deplete money from public schools. We will have a return to segregated schools if private schools are launched to educate the masses – but this time schools will
be segregated by wealth and class. There will always be some form of public schools because the poorest, even with stipends, cannot afford private schools.
Private schools are for profit – public schools are not. If you think your for-profit health insurance costs have increased enormously in the past five years, for-profit schools would cost citizens enormously over time, to send their children, en mass, to private schools,
Don’t use kids to make profits. Improve public schools. Private schools helped to sustain segregation decades ago. Private schools, for the masses, in Georgia would be going backwards, not forward, in terms of progressive thought in educating all students. Pre-K instruction and teacher training improve public schools, and move them forward.
Harry Callahan
March 28th, 2011
10:07 am
“It doesn’t seem to stop brain-dead conservatives from repeating the same tired arguments either. Oh well…..”
TRANSLATION: There’s nothing in your post I can refute Harry, so I’ll just call you brain dead.
Adam
March 28th, 2011
10:08 am
WOW: What hypocrisy, Adam? Jay refuses to write anything bad about Obama which is ridiculous considering the guy has extended many of Bush’s policies, added a new war, tripled the debt etc….
If you can’t see how hypocritical that very paragraph is then you’re not going to get it. You hate Obama for Bush policies? For war? For adding to the debt? All when you loved Bush for the same? That is what I am talking about.
Mr_B
March 28th, 2011
10:08 am
Amazing how quickly a question that should be completely non-partisan quickly turns into a conservative-liberal tug of war. This entire discussion should center on the best way to allow as many kids as possible to achieve their higherst potential.
WOW
March 28th, 2011
10:08 am
“your “solution” isn’t a solution. It’s just ideology. Getting rid of the department of education and teachers’ unions will either make education WORSE, or nonexistant for people who can’t pay for it. Which is, I assume, what you actually want: keeping the poor people in their place.”
LOL!!!!!! Teachers unions and the Dept. of Education FAILED, Adam. BIG TIME!!!!!! How would getting rid of them make things worse?
1: Teachers unions are a bunch of crybabies.
2: Dept. of Education is a corrupt bureaucracy.
3: Kids choose where they go to college, why not where they go to grade school?
“keeping the poor people in their place.”
Oh, the poor do a good job at keeping themselves poor. The Democrat Party has used that failed catch phrase for years with the poor and with black people and neither one has gotten any better.
Poor people are poor because they can’t handle money well. They’re also poor because they refuse to work and make a better life for themselves.
Bottom line: Your petty catch phrases don’t work on me.
Left wing management
March 28th, 2011
10:09 am
Diane Ravitch, former Bush I administration appointee as Ed Secretary and one of the keenest observers of the education crisis in America:
“The United States is “in an age national stupidity,” with a corporate education reform agenda bent on “demonizing teachers so it can fire them”
“The problem is poverty, not bad teachers”
“People think I want to preserve the status quo. The truth is that I hate the status quo. No Child Left Behind is the status quo“
Harry Callahan
March 28th, 2011
10:09 am
” keeping the poor people in their place.”
By forcing the poor to continue sending their kids to miserably failing public schools, and insisting that schools really exist for the benefit of the teachers and their unions INSTEAD of the students, isn’t that essentially what LIBERALS are doing?
Bosch
March 28th, 2011
10:09 am
“My apologies to the newly unpartisan Bosch.”
Newly unpartisan? Well, ty, you obviously don’t read my posts, I’m crushed.
getalife
March 28th, 2011
10:09 am
“brain dead.”
If the “brain dead” poster crushes you in debate, what does that say about you?
Adam
March 28th, 2011
10:10 am
Harry: There’s nothing in your post I can refute Harry,
What, that all liberals think lack of money is the problem? I can certainly refute that, seeing as I am a liberal and do not think money is the problem.
Did I make your head explode?
Harry Callahan
March 28th, 2011
10:11 am
Mary Elizabeth…I don’t know whether to laugh at your posts, or just feel sorry for you. Usually, I do both.
SouthGaDawg
March 28th, 2011
10:12 am
Jay,
You do realize that your precious Obama was a big Michelle Rhee supporter too right? A quick google search will confirm this for you. Of course, it suits your agenda to tie “conservatives” (i.e. Republicans) to her so you can attempt to discredit them.
Furthermore, lets not forget that Beverly Hall is a democrat and was given high praise by the Georgia for her “reforms.” Let’s not engage in intellectual dishonesty here and let’s place tie both parties to Rhee and Hall. Anything else simply undermines your credibility.
Harry Callahan
March 28th, 2011
10:12 am
“If the “brain dead” poster crushes you in debate, what does that say about you?”
SoCo, this is directed at you…can you please respond?
jm
March 28th, 2011
10:13 am
Bosch 10:01 – that’s life in the modern world bucko. thats how it works in asia
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
March 28th, 2011
10:13 am
It doesn’t seem to stop brain-dead conservatives from repeating the same tired arguments either. Oh well…..”
TRANSLATION: There’s nothing in your post I can refute Harry, so I’ll just call you brain dead.
You need to check the batteries in your translator. Basically, I was saying, “Get new material, because your basic argument is past it’s use by date.” You, and other conservatives, churn out the same bumper sticker arguments. If that’s supposed to impress someone or win a debate, that does not say much about conservative logic.
WOW
March 28th, 2011
10:13 am
“Private schools are not the answer for educating the masses of of children in Georgia; improving public schools is the answer.’
Your answer: more money.
“Private schools will deplete money from public schools. We will have a return to segregated schools if private schools are launched to educate the masses – but this time schools will
be segregated by wealth and class. There will always be some form of public schools because the poorest, even with stipends, cannot afford private schools.”
Schools are already segregated. Ever been to the “historical” black colleges? LOL. Anyhoo, there are many reasons why smart parents don’t want their kids around dumb kids who couldn’t care less about their education. People who put their kids in private schools care about their kids.
“Private schools are for profit – public schools are not.”
Ya think?????? Gee Mary, did it ever occur to you that public schools have to steal taxpayer dollars to keep them running?
“Don’t use kids to make profits.”
Tell that to the teachers unions.
“Private schools helped to sustain segregation decades ago.”
HAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
“If you can’t see how hypocritical that very paragraph is then you’re not going to get it. You hate Obama for Bush policies? For war? For adding to the debt? All when you loved Bush for the same? That is what I am talking about.”
LOL!!!!!!!! Adam is a classic case of liberal projection. Assume that someone is a certain way and then stereotype them.
Adam, you can divert attention all you want but it won’t change the fact that your president is an idiot.
getalife
March 28th, 2011
10:13 am
Intellectual honesty from a con.
Now that is funny dawg.
Harry Callahan
March 28th, 2011
10:14 am
“Did I make your head explode?”
You’re not even bright enough to get my full attention, little boy. Now please go back to your geek Squad job and let the grown-ups talk, OK?
Harry Callahan
March 28th, 2011
10:15 am
“You, and other conservatives, churn out the same bumper sticker arguments.”
LMAO. How long before a liberal plays the race card or blames George W. Bush?
Bosch
March 28th, 2011
10:15 am
jm, @ 10:13 — actually, it’s not. Intelligence is simply a person’s ability to learn and solve problems. There are plenty of super intelligent plumbers and College Professors who are dumb as a box of rocks.
getalife
March 28th, 2011
10:16 am
“LMAO. How long before a liberal plays the race card or blames George W. Bush?”
Brain dead comment.
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
March 28th, 2011
10:16 am
“If the “brain dead” poster crushes you in debate, what does that say about you?”
SoCo, this is directed at you…can you please respond?
Harry
I’ll take brain-dead. I’m on vacation, so there’s no need for me to use my brain at this moment. It does, however, paint a bad picture for you. If I can beat you in debate with my brain turned off, that doesn’t speak kindly of your debate skills.
Harry Callahan
March 28th, 2011
10:16 am
“Private schools are for profit – public schools are not.”
Actually, the vast majority of private schools are non-profit or not-for-profit, but thanks for playing, anyway.
LMAO
Harry Callahan
March 28th, 2011
10:17 am
” If I can beat you in debate with my brain turned off, that doesn’t speak kindly of your debate skills.”
All you’ve got to do is beat me in a debate (not likely) and this will become a witty rejoinder.
jm
March 28th, 2011
10:18 am
Bosch – I didn’t say they were per se dumb. Call it disposition, attitude, preference, whatever. The kids that aren’t cut out for college should be put on a second track that caters to their talents, skills, interests, and the needs of industry and business. Its perfectly reasonable.
In addition, there would still be “opportunities” for correction in switching kids from one school to the other if it was realized a massive mistake was made, though these would be exceedingly rare.
The world has changed man…..
SouthGaDawg
March 28th, 2011
10:18 am
@getalife
Oh I’m sure you don’t engage in any intellectual dishonesty. In fact, I’m quite sure that you don’t because that would imply “intelligence” on your part.
Harry Callahan
March 28th, 2011
10:19 am
Mary Elizabeth, why don’t you give us a list of all the “for profit” K-12 schools you can come up with?
Thanks in advance.
WOW
March 28th, 2011
10:19 am
“You, and other conservatives, churn out the same bumper sticker arguments.”
HOPE AND CHANGE
GAYS FOR OBAMA
IMPEACH BUSH NOW
GORE/LEIBERMAN 2000
KERRY/EDWARDS 2004
SOMEWHERE IN TEXAS A VILLAGE IS MISSING ITS IDIOT
2008 END OF AN ERROR
NOW BLOOD FOR OIL
I THINK THEREFORE I’M LIBERAL
COEXIST
GREED SUCKS
OIL SUCKS
SAVE AN ELK SHOOT A LAND DEVELOPER
FLAMING LIBERAL
Those are just a few left wing bumper stickers driving around in crappy beat up cars driven by left wingers who work at evil corporate Starbucks.
jm
March 28th, 2011
10:20 am
The US Public School System is like AOL. And the rest of the world has moved on to Google.
getalife
March 28th, 2011
10:20 am
“The world has changed man….”
As the cons are fighting to go backwards.
See a conflict there jm?
larry
March 28th, 2011
10:20 am
Ahh……………….here comes the union bashing.
Explain to me this; why do children in states that have teachers’ unions score higher on their SAT scores than states who do not have teachers’ unions?
Bosch
March 28th, 2011
10:20 am
“The kids that aren’t cut out for college should be put on a second track that caters to their talents, skills, interests, and the needs of industry and business. Its perfectly reasonable.”
I know there are kids not college material, but their path in life should not be based on their test scores in the 8th grade.
Harry Callahan
March 28th, 2011
10:20 am
WOW, you forgot “Mean People Suck”
getalife
March 28th, 2011
10:21 am
jm.
Try to keep up genius.
AOL/ Huffington Post.
You can learn something at the HP.
Harry Callahan
March 28th, 2011
10:22 am
“Explain to me this; why do children in states that have teachers’ unions score higher on their SAT scores than states who do not have teachers’ unions?”
Why don’t you compare the racial and ethnic make-up of the union states to those of the non-union states, then compare the average SAT scores of the various ethnic and racial groups, and get back to us?
Dr. Craig Spinks
March 28th, 2011
10:22 am
Jay,
While “(p)ushing the story of reform became more important than pushing the mission of reform” for DC and APS educrats, for most Georgia educrats pushing the illusion of broadly based educational improvement became more important than pushing the mission of reform.
As you reminded us several weeks ago, the mission of educational reform must be founded upon our culture’s renewed belief in the critical value of education in preparing our kids for responsible adult lives. The illusion of widespread achievement fostered by the likes of CRCTs, GHSGTs et al. inhibits the public perception of the need for such renewal and the public demand for proof that our kids are being so prepared.
Adam
March 28th, 2011
10:24 am
WOW: Oh, the poor do a good job at keeping themselves poor….
Poor people are poor because they can’t handle money well. They’re also poor because they refuse to work and make a better life for themselves.
Over generalization and incorrect analysis for the loss. You don’t understand the world WOW. You only understand the small fake reality you’ve made for yourself. Poor people aren’t poor by choice. That’s a foolish thing to say and assume. They are making efforts to make life better for themselves. They don’t want to be poor forever. How childish for you to suggest otherwise.
LOL!!!!!! Teachers unions and the Dept. of Education FAILED, Adam. BIG TIME!!!!!! How would getting rid of them make things worse?
1: Teachers unions are a bunch of crybabies.
2: Dept. of Education is a corrupt bureaucracy.
3: Kids choose where they go to college, why not where they go to grade school?
You’re asking questions that you don’t want the answers to, but I’m going to answer them anyway. Teachers unions have not failed (they’re only being attacked as a scapegoat right now), and the only failure in public education right now is a focus on test scores rather than on learning. It’s actually quite easy to figure out if you’re someone who actually knows how to think critically.
Assuming kids could go to any grade school they wanted, they would not be making the decision. Their parents would. And kids still don’t get to decide where to go to college. That depends entirely on what they can afford, and not all of them will receive help (especially if you conservatives have your way). In reality, by making it all about money, you are RESTRICTING choices rather than giving more choice. Again, if you had the ability to think critically you’d realize that.
Harry: By forcing the poor to continue sending their kids to miserably failing public schools, and insisting that schools really exist for the benefit of the teachers and their unions INSTEAD of the students, isn’t that essentially what LIBERALS are doing?
No, it isn’t. Schools don’t exist for the benefits of teachers and their unions and no one thinks that except CONSERVATIVES. Miserably failing schools are failing because of the demographic they represent. Send the same students to other schools and very little, if anything, will change. Kids who come from those schools that use voucher programs do NOT improve significantly. The problem is part at home, and part with the school system focusing on test scores and basically throwing their hands up and giving up any time a student refuses to learn. If you start from an early age with basic learning skills, there’s less chance of failure later on. A good foundation is what is needed.
As for letting the grown ups talk, you really should take your own advice and go back to the kids’ table. The adults, including myself, do not include you. Your posts both before and after your snarky comment prove this.
kayaker 71
March 28th, 2011
10:25 am
How many of you posters out there have kids who have earned a degree in something, only to go to work in an entirely different persuasion where all of that education money you spent didn’t have a damn thing to do with where they finally chose to be? I have an older daughter with a masters in special education who owns and runs a lavender farm. Another daughter has a degree in criminology who is a bartender. Go figure.
getalife
March 28th, 2011
10:25 am
“Oh I’m sure you don’t engage in any intellectual dishonesty. In fact, I’m quite sure that you don’t because that would imply “intelligence” on your part.”
dawgs suk,
You must be new to this blog because I attack you con’s intellectual dishonesty all the time.
Psst, everything you see on fox is not intellectually honest.
larry
March 28th, 2011
10:25 am
What does racial and ethic make-up have to do with it?
Just answer the question , if you can.
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
March 28th, 2011
10:27 am
Schools are already segregated. Ever been to the “historical” black colleges?
It’s obvious that you have NOT!!! Here’s one for you to look at.
http://www.alasu.edu/about-asu/index.aspx
Also, a bit dated, but here’s a little stat for you..
http://www.aypf.org/publications/rmaa/pdfs/HistBlackCollege.pdf
Most Historically Black Colleges and Universities (HBCUs) were founded during an era when African American students were barred from attending traditionally white, postsecondary institutions. [...]
Today, there are nearly 300,000 students attending 103 HBCUs across the country. On average, 13.1% of HBCU students are white and the vast majority of the remaining student body is African American.
That was as of 1999 when that study was done. Look at Knight vs State of Alabama, and you’ll find that HBCU’s in Alabama had to increase their minority enrollment to get equal funding from the state. Now, the State of Alabama has located the state forensics lab on the campus of an HBCU.
getalife
March 28th, 2011
10:28 am
“Another daughter has a degree in criminology who is a bartender. ”
Free drinks on kay.
WOODSTOCK MIKE
March 28th, 2011
10:28 am
FUNNY THEIR STILL ARE NO ARTICLES ABOUT OUR UNPROVOKED ATTACK ON LIBYA BY THE OBAMA ADMINSTRATION??? JAY YOU ARE SO WEAK!!
HOW ABOUT SEC GATES THIS WEEKEND SAYING LIBYA IN NO WAY POSED ANY DIRECT THREAT TO THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA??
HOW ABOUT PRESIDENT OBAMA SAYING THIS WOULD TAKE DAYS?? IN FACT NOW IT IS CLEAR THE MISSION IS GOING TO TAKE MONTHS.
WHAT A BIASED JOURNALIST JAY BOOKMAN IS, I CANT IMAGINE WHAT KIND OF VICIOUS ARTICLES HE WOULD BE WRITING IF BUSH WAS IN OFFICE AND AUTHORIZED THIS WAR.
getalife
March 28th, 2011
10:30 am
Mike ate the brown acid.
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
March 28th, 2011
10:31 am
All you’ve got to do is beat me in a debate (not likely) and this will become a witty rejoinder.
Definitely not likely, because I refuse to get into what “you” consider debating.
Kayaker
I’m in law enforcement, when I finished with a degree in mathematics. Good thing was that I was on a full scholarship. Otherwise, I’d be angry with myself for that same reason. If I could go back and do it all over, I would probably go for psychology or something. My job is reading people all day, and I think the psychology degree would go a lot farther than mathematics.
MrReality
March 28th, 2011
10:32 am
Governments lie. That’s what they do. They are based on force, fraud, violence, and theft. That is what they are. They fail. That is also their nature as they have no price/value/cost/demand, system to operate within so that they can effectively produce what is needed by the market. Socialism – the basis of all governments, is a failure. The general public has to be lied to about this or they will come to realize that they would be better off without government and its failed programs. If you are ignorant enough to actually believe that your child will get a good education in a government school, or that anything that comes out of a government mouthpiece (including the media) is anything other than a self-serving statement then you are a fool.
Harry Callahan
March 28th, 2011
10:34 am
“What does racial and ethic make-up have to do with it? ”
“Just answer the question , if you can.”
I’d be happy to. Non-union states tend to be southern, southern states have higher concentrations of black students, and black sudents tend to have lower SAT scores.
You can call me racist (and I’m sure you will) but those are the facts.
If you really want to compare non-union education to union education, you need to do a much more sophisticated analysis. i know liberals don’t really “do” facts and analysis, but this is how you go about it;
Compare the scores of white students in union states to the scores of white students in non-union states, then do the same for blacks, hispanics, rich vs. poor, etc. Only by normalizing out the other variable do you get a real picture of whether or not education tends to be better in states with teachers unions.
But I’m sure it’s easier just to say unions are good and Harry is a racist.
Bosch
March 28th, 2011
10:35 am
“That is also their nature as they have no price/value/cost/demand, system to operate within so that they can effectively produce what is needed by the market. ”
Another person who doesn’t understand that government does not equal business — it’s actually the antithesis of it.
getalife
March 28th, 2011
10:35 am
SC,
Did they include Israel’s tactics in your training?
I hear they just ask questions but never been there.
Adam
March 28th, 2011
10:36 am
If you remove government and replace it with private companies, all you get is the same boot pressing on your neck, but this time with no accountability.
Harry Callahan
March 28th, 2011
10:36 am
“Poor people aren’t poor by choice”
As a matter of fact, Adam little boy, the poor are poor EXACTLY because of the choices they make in life, i.e. not finishing school, drug and alcohol abuse, kids out of wedlock, spending more than they earn, etc, etc.
You are so, so, SO ignorant of the real world around you…..
Cheating fears cast doubt on Rhee’s legacy in DC public schools | Jay Bookman | Slinking Toward Retirement
March 28th, 2011
10:36 am
[...] Cheating fears cast doubt on Rhee’s legacy in DC public schools | Jay Bookman. This entry was posted in Education, Opinion and tagged Caveon, chancellor, combative style, dc public schools, dc schools, district, Education, education campus, erasure, Freedom of Information Act, georgia capitol, Jay Bookman, martyr status, mayor adrian fenty, percent, reform, test, Union, washington mayor, Year. Bookmark the permalink. ← Populism, corruption plague Bengal economy [...]
The End Days
March 28th, 2011
10:37 am
Well by golly, if the USA Today did the investigating and reporting it must be 100% accurate and unbiased. Thank goodness FOX wasn’t involved. Jay driving readers to USA Today is under investigation by the AJC. Now there is a story in the making. BTW-Rhee is a democrat.
Harry Callahan
March 28th, 2011
10:37 am
“Definitely not likely, because I refuse to get into what “you” consider debating.”
Because I would mop the floor with you.
Mary Elizabeth
March 28th, 2011
10:39 am
Harry Callahan:
You must have cut and pasted your negative words about me from the exact same words you used about me on Cynthia Tucker’s blog in December, 2010. Here was my answer to you, on Tucker’s blog then, and it stands today:
To Harry Callahan from Mary Elizabeth, Cynthia Tucker’s blog, Dec. 20, 2010, 5:56 p.m.:
“Just know that your words have no credence with me.
Anyone as small-minded and mean-spirited as you needs to be called out for the bully that you are.”
BTW, Harry, I have spent about 75,000 hours in public education, most in leadership. How many years have you spent in educational leadership? That is a rhetorical question. Don’t bother to answer. I have no more words for you.
Bosch
March 28th, 2011
10:39 am
“BTW-Rhee is a democrat.”
That’s what’s so weird about wingnuts, they constantly gripe and bitch that Jay is a partisan hack, then when he actually proves them wrong and criticized a Democrat, they just can’t wrap their heads around it.
Harry Callahan
March 28th, 2011
10:40 am
“BTW-Rhee is a democrat.”
…and got thrown under the bus because of her skin color…
getalife
March 28th, 2011
10:40 am
“Because I would mop the floor with you.”
harry please,
You are a con.
cons lie and call it debate.
You basically mop the floor with yourself because nobody believes a word you say.
You cons are the boy that cried wolf too many times.
Zero credibility..
williebkind
March 28th, 2011
10:41 am
Adam
March 28th, 2011
10:24 am
The parents will decide where their kids go to school? So teenagers have no influence on their parents? That is flawed.
Teachers are scapegoats! That is propoganda!
Miserably failing schools are failing because of the demographic they represent. Yea and most of them are liberal!
So you make choices on other peoples’ money! Good for you, big corporations may need you.
Education starts at home! Now I have read so much history and all the great people hardly ever had their parents teaching them algebra. And the schools were locally controlled and not by the federal government. You know who has the gold makes the rule–the federal government.
Mr_B
March 28th, 2011
10:41 am
Woodstock: The small key on the left side of the keyboard, above the the shift key, is called the cap-lock key. What you are yammering about might meke more sense if you turned it off. At least, it won’t be any worse.
MrReality: didn’t I recently see you throwing bombs at the Czar in St. Petersburg?
Doggone/GA
March 28th, 2011
10:41 am
“Governments lie. That’s what they do”
People lie. That’s what WE do
Harry Callahan
March 28th, 2011
10:42 am
“BTW, Harry, I have spent about 75,000 hours in public education, most in leadership.”
Nobody with good sense would brag about THAT in today’s world.
Did you come up with your list of for-profit K-12 schools yet?
Dave R.
March 28th, 2011
10:42 am
“The US Public School System is like AOL. And the rest of the world has moved on to Google.”
Testify!
“Poor people aren’t poor by choice”
Dumbest comment – ever. However, the more accurate comment would be that poor people are poor because of the choices they make, not that they willingly choose to be poor.
AmVet
March 28th, 2011
10:42 am
Good morning Bookmaniacs.
The general public has to be lied to about this or they will come to realize that they would be better off without government and its failed programs.
Hysterical.
When the Uncle Sam haters go so berserk that they preach outright anarchy, you know someone was traumatized by having to read Lord of the Flies!
The disparity between regions of this country in educational rankings are primarily historic and cultural in difference.
It has little to do with libs or cons, Dems or Reps, and not that much to do with black and white. See this list to be at least partially disabused about your fervently hopeful racial stereotypes:
http://www.psk12.com/rating/USthreeRsphp/STATE_GA_level_High_CountyID_0.html
As always it comes down to two major reasons – money and the value placed on educational success by communities.
That is why regions like the Midwest, Upper Midwest and Northeast are almost always near the top of said rankings. And Dixie is always at the very bottom.
Bookman's Brain
March 28th, 2011
10:43 am
MONEY IS NOT THE ANSWER and this is more proof.
Just throw more money at teachers and administrators in D.C. and Atlanta, what do you get?
Mass cheating BY THE SCHOOL TEACHERS AND ADMINISTRATION,
Get real people, If you watch reports on the best schools you will see those like the one on 60 minutes last night and the one (I don’t remember his name) where the headmaster also does work reporting on CNN. These are hard nosed, no nonsense schools that say students only succeed if they work hard and study.
All the other BS the government churns out to steal your money is a waste of time.
KISS, keep is simple stupid. Something a liberal NEVER understands.
Harry Callahan
March 28th, 2011
10:43 am
getalife,
$500 for each lie I posted that you can point to. Good luck, and happy hunting.
Harry – 1
getalife – 0
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
March 28th, 2011
10:44 am
Did they include Israel’s tactics in your training?
There’s no course to teach that, but you can always find information on different techniques. I’ve met security personnel from all around the world, and it surprised me that some of our tactics are quite similar. There’s different approaches, but some of the methods are similar.
People have talked about adopting the Israeli security model here, but we have far too many avenues of departure from this country for it to be effective. You’d have to have a security force numbering in the hundreds of thousands to attempt to pull it off effectively.
Dave R.
March 28th, 2011
10:44 am
” I have spent about 75,000 hours in public education, most in leadership.”
Isn’t that an oxymoron, you know – like military intelligence?
Harry Callahan
March 28th, 2011
10:44 am
Bosch…Jay called Rhee a “conservative darling” and never identified her as a Democrat.
Thanks for playing though.
getalife
March 28th, 2011
10:45 am
harry,
“BTW, Harry, I have spent about 75,000 hours in public education, most in leadership.”
This is impressive.
You dropped out so you are jealous of intellectual superiority.
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
March 28th, 2011
10:46 am
getalife @ 10:40
I wouldn’t have wasted the bandwidth to reply to that. I just let people live in their version of the world. Nobody gets hurt or offended that way.