Supreme Court rules – correctly, sadly – in favor of Westboro nuts
WASHINGTON — The Supreme Court ruled Wednesday that the First Amendment protects fundamentalist church members who mount attention-getting, anti-gay protests outside military funerals.
The court voted 8-1 in favor of the Westboro Baptist Church of Topeka, Kan. The decision upheld an appeals court ruling that threw out a $5 million judgment to the father of a dead Marine who sued church members after they picketed his son’s funeral.
Chief Justice John Roberts wrote the opinion for the court. Justice Samuel Alito dissented.
“What Westboro said, in the whole context of how and where it chose to say it, is entitled to ’special protection’ under the First Amendment,” Roberts wrote, “and that protection cannot be overcome by a jury finding that the picketing was outrageous.”
As despicable as those “church members” might be, I don’t know how the court could have ruled otherwise. Tolerating the rantings of hateful fools is part of the price we pay for free speech.
– Jay Bookman
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673 comments Add your comment
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
March 2nd, 2011
11:42 am
USinUK,
MANILOW!
Well, I’m with Dave R. on this one. A few bars of “Mandy” over a loudspeaker would have those nuts begging to get back on their plane.
jm
March 2nd, 2011
11:42 am
SoCo – you pulled a “red card” on me. But I’m on the other field playing baseball, not soccer….
Doggone/GA
March 2nd, 2011
11:42 am
“Where is your love for the second amendment? Why do you pick and choose?”
counterquestion: Why do you think we ALL “pick and choose”?
ByteMe
March 2nd, 2011
11:42 am
GW: just as the 1st amendment has limits for public safety — yelling fire in a crowded theater is one of them — the 2nd amendment also has limits for public safety… or at least it should if the gun manufacturers didn’t have so many congresscritters by their wallets.
Big D
March 2nd, 2011
11:43 am
In this life or the next all shall pay.
Tommy Maddox
March 2nd, 2011
11:43 am
I wonder if you can rent a couple dozen Hell’s Angels dudes to provide perimeter security for the funerals? They’d probably be real kind to the Westboro folks…
ByteMe
March 2nd, 2011
11:44 am
Big D: thanks for reminding me that my electric bill is due to be paid…
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
March 2nd, 2011
11:44 am
jm
As I said, it’s all in how you define “my” and “their”……. Just admit to your biases. That’s the first step.
George W
March 2nd, 2011
11:45 am
ByteMe….Oh I agree there should be limitations to protect citizens and their safety. But I see so many defenders of the 1st amendment and not the second.
George W
March 2nd, 2011
11:46 am
Tommy….I spent some time with a few Hell’s Angels in Florida. Trust me if they were there no one would mess with them.
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
March 2nd, 2011
11:47 am
SoCo – you pulled a “red card” on me. But I’m on the other field playing baseball, not soccer
Don’t make me give you a Bobby Cox!!!!
Tommy Maddox
March 2nd, 2011
11:47 am
You have to figure that they love the military.
jm
March 2nd, 2011
11:48 am
SoCo – I don’t deny I have a bias against unions (as an institution). So what? Lot’s of people carry bias on the left against the NRA, corporations, etc., that doesn’t mean they have a bias against the actual people. Having a racial bias suggests actually having an opinion of someone based on their skin color, a far different matter. I have no bias against anyone in a union, but I don’t like unions, got the difference.
But one can’t say (equivalently): I have no bias against any individual black people, but I don’t like black people. Got the difference?
Apples, oranges.
My whole point is we need racial progress in this country, and Holder isn’t helping and he should not be AG if he carriers racial bias to this extent.
stands for decibels
March 2nd, 2011
11:49 am
rent a couple dozen Hell’s Angels dudes to provide perimeter security for the funerals? They’d probably be real kind to the Westboro folks…
And again, I remind one and all—if they were physically attacked, they’d sue the Angels, and they’d sue whoever hired them, and they’d win. They’re old hands at working the courts — they just won a freaking SCOTUS case! — you don’t want to play their game.
ByteMe
March 2nd, 2011
11:49 am
GW: you have an entire industry worth hundreds of millions committed to the protection of the second amendment (and their profits). The first amendment? Except for “freedom of religion”, not so much, so you need more people-power for that.
Doggone/GA
March 2nd, 2011
11:51 am
“you don’t want to play their game”
And that’s why the Patriot Guard doesn’t. They just stand, peacefully, between the “protestors” and the funeral.
George W
March 2nd, 2011
11:51 am
stands….hahah did you say they would sue the Hells Angels? That is freaking hilarious!
ByteMe
March 2nd, 2011
11:51 am
GW: by the way, several media companies filed briefs in support of Westboro’s freedom of speech… they just aren’t talking about it so publicly.
George W
March 2nd, 2011
11:51 am
Byte…I dont think you get my point.
Peadawg
March 2nd, 2011
11:51 am
Not much to discuss here…the ruling was correct whether you agree w/ it or not.
ByteMe
March 2nd, 2011
11:53 am
GW: oh, I do. The real issue is that when the second amendment comes up in these kinds of discussions, it’s ALWAYS about public safety vs. the 2nd amendment. And you get lots of people who are for public safety coming out against what you perceive is the 2nd amendment.
ByteMe
March 2nd, 2011
11:53 am
And, yes, Peadawg, we’re on page 3
George W
March 2nd, 2011
11:54 am
Byte….please tell me what you mean by “what you preceive is the 2nd Amendment”?
Dave R.
March 2nd, 2011
11:54 am
USinUK, how about . . .
Ethel Merman doing SHOW TUNES !
stands for decibels
March 2nd, 2011
11:55 am
stands….hahah did you say they would sue the Hells Angels? That is freaking hilarious!
no, I said they’d sue the Angels, meaning, whoever physically attacked them, and whoever paid them to do so. I’ve no idea what’s especially hilarious about that–do you think those men don’t have any assets that can be taken from them in a court judgement?
ByteMe
March 2nd, 2011
11:55 am
Why don’t you tell us instead how you perceive it and why you think it’s always under assault from people on this blog?
George W
March 2nd, 2011
11:58 am
Stands….I would just suggest that you do more research about the Angels before you post.
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
March 2nd, 2011
11:58 am
jm
At the most basic level, all biases are the same in my opinion. It doesn’t matter if it’s based on race, organization membership, or anything. I’ll also disagree on differentiating between bias against an organization vs bias against members of the organization on the basis that it’s the members who make up the organization and not the other way around. Not all members think alike, but they have like minded interests if they belong to the same organization.
Two things I think will never go away in this country is violence and racism. I think they could be greatly diminished, but they will never go away. It’s a part of our country’s DNA, whether we agree with it or not.
George W
March 2nd, 2011
11:58 am
Byte……you made the comment I was just wanting clarification.
jm
March 2nd, 2011
11:58 am
sfd – well, I doubt a Hell’s Angel would give up his bike, no matter what (re assets). I suspect the guy would be in Mexico by the time judgement day rolled around.
jm
March 2nd, 2011
11:59 am
“Not all members think alike, but they have like minded interests if they belong to the same organization.”
not in a union shiop
Crenshaw8
March 2nd, 2011
12:00 pm
I have never been a fan of Holder’s due to what I see as incompetence. Lady justice is blindfolded for a reason. The scales should weigh equally. No black, no white. Holder is an imcompetent, much like Obama, who appointed him.
Doggone/GA
March 2nd, 2011
12:01 pm
“not in a union shiop”
Yes, even in a union shop. If someone didn’t agree they wouldn’t bother to apply for work there.
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
March 2nd, 2011
12:01 pm
jm
To quote md, it’s all about the choices we make. If I have a job that was a closed union shop, I would quit if I didn’t agree or like what the union did. What good is it to have a job and be miserable as sh*t everyday? I’m luck enough that I have varied talents and interests. I’m not the type to put up with bs that I don’t like.
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
March 2nd, 2011
12:03 pm
I have never been a fan of Holder’s due to what I see as incompetence.
And what you see is the gospel truth for us all??? I’d wager to say no…… What you see, comprehend, and/or think is your opinion, and you’re entitled to it. Just because you see it doesn’t make it a fact for everyone else.
Roberto
March 2nd, 2011
12:07 pm
USinUK @ 1102: “unfortunately, that’s not particularly appropriate at a funeral, either …”
Actually it is. The Patriot Guards are INVITED by the families of the fallen to protect them from those fools.
ByteMe
March 2nd, 2011
12:08 pm
My comment is that everyone has a different reading and different interpretation of what each amendment really means (just look at the fun about the 10th and 14th these days!), so it’s all in how you perceive an amendment as to whether it’s under attack, being defending correctly, etc.
Tommy Maddox
March 2nd, 2011
12:09 pm
I doubt the Angel chapters are incorporated and/or holding title to anything upon which to execute a judgment. Besides, I’d bet they’d do this kind of stuff for free.
Don't Forget
March 2nd, 2011
12:09 pm
W, plenty of dems support the second amendment, myself included but I don’t think it extends to 31 bullet clips, automatic weapons, bazooka’s, rpg’s etc just like the first amendment doesn’t cover the so called “fire” in a crowded theatre, slander, threats of bodily harm, bomb scares etc. When the rights of one endangers the rights of others you’re in a gray area and a little common sense is called for.
Fred
March 2nd, 2011
12:10 pm
USinUK: What was the song you posted? I got the ‘not autorized in your Country” message. Wouldn’t even show the title………
George W
March 2nd, 2011
12:11 pm
Dont Forget….I actually agree with you. I actually do not own a gun but I feel it is every american’s right to own/possess one.
carlosgvv
March 2nd, 2011
12:12 pm
I wonder how many of you honestly believe that Jefferson and Franklin would have condoned “Christians” shouting anti-homosexual slurs at the funeral of a fallen soldier. What does your common sense tell you? Or, is common sense not so common after all?
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
March 2nd, 2011
12:12 pm
I don’t think it extends to 31 bullet clips, automatic weapons, bazooka’s, rpg’s etc
It doesn’t!!!!!!!!!!
ByteMe
March 2nd, 2011
12:14 pm
I don’t think it extends to 31 bullet clips, automatic weapons, bazooka’s, rpg’s etc
It does if the gun lobby wants it that way. Oh, wait. They do.
stands for decibels
March 2nd, 2011
12:15 pm
I would just suggest that you do more research about the Angels
[...]
well, I doubt a Hell’s Angel would give up his bike
Your apparent awe and respect for these drug-gang members is duly noted.
I doubt the Angel chapters are incorporated and/or holding title to anything upon which to execute a judgment.
and again, I’m talking about lawsuits against individuals. Obviously, the issue I was trying to address would be the folly of hiring goons to rough up the Westboro clan.
You want to give it a go, be my guest. Let us know how it turns out for you. I can only guarantee this–you’re hardly the first with that incredibly bright idea.
George W
March 2nd, 2011
12:17 pm
Stands…..”Your apparent awe and respect for these drug-gang members is duly noted.”
When did I mention the Black Panthers?
stands for decibels
March 2nd, 2011
12:18 pm
It doesn’t!!!!
I seem to recall even Pat Buchanan, when asked if the “right to bear arms” was so unfettered that one was entitled to carry a 120mm mortar, he replied, “Well, if you have to tow something, you’re gonna have to register it…”
ummm
March 2nd, 2011
12:18 pm
why do libs hate the phelps, when they were instrumental in abolishing jim crow in kansas? at least two members of the family work(ed) for the state of kansas. government employees and civil rights activists. they are your comrades in arms.
jm
March 2nd, 2011
12:19 pm
out
Doggone/GA
March 2nd, 2011
12:19 pm
“When did I mention the Black Panthers?”
I would just suggest that you do more research about the Panthers before you post
George W
March 2nd, 2011
12:20 pm
Doggone….trust me I know all I need to know about those thugs.
Doggone/GA
March 2nd, 2011
12:21 pm
“trust me I know all I need to know about those thugs”
I don’t doubt that for a minute
George W
March 2nd, 2011
12:21 pm
Doggone….glad we could agree.
Del
March 2nd, 2011
12:22 pm
Sad ruling but not unexpected.
StJ
March 2nd, 2011
12:23 pm
Well then, let them protest military funerals. And I’ll exercise my right to free speech and blare this at them as I drive by their stupid little protest: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WNIEB4MHCHw
Doggone/GA
March 2nd, 2011
12:24 pm
“glad we could agree”
We don’t
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
March 2nd, 2011
12:24 pm
dB
Maybe that’s the standard we should use. If it has to be towed/hauled by heavy duty trucks or if it’s mounted to a heavy duty chassis, then it needs to be registered.
Stands…..”Your apparent awe and respect for these drug-gang members is duly noted.”
When did I mention the Black Panthers?
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Doggone/GA
March 2nd, 2011
12:26 pm
SoCo – amen to that. And he’s so desperate for someone, ANYone, to agree with him that he’ll manufacture agreement out of thin air. Sad.
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
March 2nd, 2011
12:28 pm
News just broke that two airmen got shot and killed at Frankfurt airport……
http://www.cnn.com/2011/WORLD/europe/03/02/germany.shooting/index.html?hpt=T1&iref=BN1
Ragnar Danneskjöld
March 2nd, 2011
12:29 pm
Good afternoon all. I think much of “first amendment” jurisprudence is founded on error, and I would have dissented.
The theoretical basis for application of First Amendment as a constriction of states arises in the first clause of the first section of the 14th Amendment: “No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States;” Other 14th Amendment jurisprudence avers that those rights explained within the Bill of Rights are explicitly among the “privileges or immunities” of citizens of the United States.
As I read the Bill of Rights, only the Second through the Eighth Amendments outline individual rights of citizens of the United States. The First Amendment is merely a restriction on the acts of Congress and does not describe any inherent right.
Other First Amendment jurisprudence recognizes that the “right” arising thereunder is not absolute, e.g., yelling “fire” in a theatre, disseminating the fruits of espionage. Many states, recognizing the limits of “free” speech have enacted “hate” crime enhancements where the enhancements are based entirely on speech.
In the instant case, the offensive speech was directed at one outside policy-making authority of the United States. The state made no effort to prohibit or punish the speech – this was a private action. I would not find this speech protected, even if I thought there was a valid foundation for constricting the commnications laws of the individual states
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
March 2nd, 2011
12:30 pm
2 killed… Not sure if both are military.
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
March 2nd, 2011
12:31 pm
Hey….. Ragnar is Alito!!!!!!!!!
Ragnar Danneskjöld
March 2nd, 2011
12:33 pm
Dear Southern @ 12:31, thanks, I wish.
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
March 2nd, 2011
12:35 pm
Ragnar
He dissented.
Don't Forget
March 2nd, 2011
12:40 pm
W, there are plenty of things the two parties could agree on if the elected officials weren’t determined to take the “divide and concquer” approach to protect their jobs.
SC, I know those things aren’t protected by the second amendment with the exception of the 31 bullet clip. That’s what the Arizona shooter had. I’m guessing you knew that though.
Thulsa Doom
March 2nd, 2011
12:41 pm
“Tolerating the rantings of hateful fools is part of the price we pay for free speech” JB
Agreed. We see the rantings of hateful people like these church nuts as well as the rantings of the leftwing nuts on this blog every day.
The next target we need to go after in the name of free speech is the speech codes on college campuses which leftwing professors use to stifle free speech and destroy the free exchange of conservative vs liberal ideas.
Liberals love free speech. As long as its their free speech.
USinUK
March 2nd, 2011
12:41 pm
Fred – the song was Depeche Mode’s Personal Jesus.
Roberto – the Guard being there is great – singing disco tunes, not so much
Adam
March 2nd, 2011
12:44 pm
Bottom line is I disagree with what Westboro Baptist Church is doing, and it shows just how much hate one can spew if they are loud and visible enough and don’t do anything illegal.
However, it is free speech and freedom of assembly. I may not like what they are doing but it’s perfectly legal.
jan
March 2nd, 2011
12:45 pm
EASY WAY TO HANDLE THIS. HAVE POLICE PREPARED AT FUNERALS (FUNERAL HOMES) AND AT GRAVESIDE TO ARREST THESE PEOPLE BASED ON “DISTURBING THE PEACE” – THEN THAT WILL DO AWAY WITH ANY PROBLEMS. IF LOCAL POLICEMEN WILL DO THIS – WHICH IS LEGAL TO DO BY THE WAY – THEN THERE WILL NOT BE THIS PROBLEM!!
Fred
March 2nd, 2011
12:45 pm
oh wow. i haven’t heard that one in years. Thanks
Jimmy62
March 2nd, 2011
12:47 pm
A good ruling. A big problem with shutting off certain kinds of speech can be seen in the anti-conservative slant verging on hate from so many liberals today. All of the sudden normal conservative ideas get categorized as hate speech by people who disagree with the ideas, and suddenly legitimate, valid points of view are censored. In order to avoid that sort of thing, we must allow even disgusting speech to occur if we value freedom.
Fred
March 2nd, 2011
12:47 pm
USinUK: Just out of curiosity, can you get to this link? Same song on youtube, but apparently not blocked to the US. Wondering if it’s blocked to the UK………..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=u1xrNaTO1bI
Doggone/GA
March 2nd, 2011
12:48 pm
“In order to avoid that sort of thing”
And who has shut off YOUR hate speech here?
Dave R.
March 2nd, 2011
12:51 pm
I don’t really buy Ragnar’s rather tortured explanation. I understand the whole “Congress shall make no law” bit, but the rights enumerated in the Bill of Rights were supposed to be agreed upon and respected by every state that ratified the Constitution; i.e. “basic rights”. It was certainly believed that states falling under the auspices of the Constitution would conform to it, therefore “Congress” was designed to be interchangable with “government”, whether state or local as well.
That it wasn’t explicitly written as such may have been an error of assumption, or could have been omitted due to states’ rights issues. Either way, the Framers didn’t want “government” to restrict speech.
And certainly the “hate crimes” example and the “yelling fire in a crowed theater” example can be justified, as they potentially put a person’s life at risk, depending on the degree to which the speech entails.
These Westboro yahoos doen’t really put anyone’s lives at risk by their actions (except their own by those they offend), so I don’t think the above examples rise to a level that can be properly acted upon by government.
Now, if there were a way to anonymously call in to the police a potential threat to those people if they showed up, that could give law enforcement a valid reason to keep the two parties separate in the cause of public safety. Just sayin’ . . .
0311/0317 - 1811/1801
March 2nd, 2011
12:53 pm
Southern Comfort:
What to you want to bet those two Air Force personnel were killed by a white supremist from Alabama who went over there?
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
March 2nd, 2011
12:54 pm
Don’t Forget
I knew… Just couldn’t resist being silly.
0311/0317 - 1811/1801
March 2nd, 2011
12:55 pm
I’m glad the SCOTUS ruled the way they did as this will also protect the right of anti-abortion protesters to carry graphic signs that really show the horrors of abortion for babies.
scrappy
March 2nd, 2011
12:56 pm
“Liberals love free speech. As long as its their free speech.”
hahahahaha. Liberals love free speech as much as conservatives, Liberals just have to put up with and ignore more ‘hateful fools’
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
March 2nd, 2011
12:56 pm
03
They have somebody from Kosovo in custody. Listening to the video on CNN’s website, it sounds as if the guy got on the bus and did the shooting from inside. When I first read the story on yahoo, I was under the assumption that it was fire from outside the bus. If he did, indeed, get on the bus, I’m wondering how he was able to do so?
@@
March 2nd, 2011
12:57 pm
Small Nuclear War Could Reverse Global Warming for Years
Regional war could spark “unprecedented climate change,” experts predict.
Let’s see….our obesity problems would be solved due to a lack of food. Our climate would cool, but I’d be left with no summers.
Nix that idea!
Dave R.
March 2nd, 2011
12:59 pm
“Liberals just have to put up with and ignore more ‘hateful fools’”
Au contraire.
I do believe that the hate is well represented on both sides, as evidenced by the usual invective on this particular blog.
Dave R.
March 2nd, 2011
1:01 pm
“What to you want to bet those two Air Force personnel were killed by a white supremist from Alabama who went over there?”
Nah, they just use herbicides, not guns . . .
godless heathen
March 2nd, 2011
1:01 pm
Where is this Westboro Baptist “Church” anyway?
Dave R.
March 2nd, 2011
1:02 pm
“Let’s see….our obesity problems would be solved due to a lack of food. Our climate would cool, but I’d be left with no summers.”
But potentially, you could read at night without a lamp!
Doggone/GA
March 2nd, 2011
1:04 pm
“Where is this Westboro Baptist “Church” anyway?”
Try reading what Jay wrote. It’s not THAT long.
godless heathen
March 2nd, 2011
1:04 pm
Nevermind. I see now, Topeka. Glad it’s not in GA.
George W
March 2nd, 2011
1:05 pm
Godless….I think if this were to happen in Georgia….it wouldnt take long for someone to get hurt.
0311/0317 - 1811/1801
March 2nd, 2011
1:08 pm
Southern Comfort:
I hear you but I don’t think you got my “gist” ……………….
USinUK
March 2nd, 2011
1:09 pm
Fred – weird. nope. no can see!
0311/0317 - 1811/1801
March 2nd, 2011
1:09 pm
Hate groups?
The difference in volume is astronomical.
USinUK
March 2nd, 2011
1:13 pm
heading home … later taters!
in honor of the Rev. Phelps, I’m leaving you with a little traveling music of my own …
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GNCVvJfHrbg
jan
March 2nd, 2011
1:15 pm
haven’t heard that one in a while..?..?..!.. well, it does work at the local level – if they will only arrest them for disturbing the peace…it shall stick at the local level!
Our country has gone NUTSO and no so-called CHRISTIAN would even remotely think of doing what these NUTS are doing!!!!
George W
March 2nd, 2011
1:18 pm
jan….AMEN
@@
March 2nd, 2011
1:19 pm
I know nothing about global economics but this sounds ominous for America…
Why the Dollar’s Reign Is Near an End
For decades the dollar has served as the world’s main reserve currency, but, argues Barry Eichengreen, it will soon have to share that role. Here’s why—and what it will mean for international markets and companies.
although expected.
Doggone/GA
March 2nd, 2011
1:19 pm
“if they will only arrest them for disturbing the peace”
There’s just this tiny little detail that they have to BE disturbing the peace before they can be arrested for it.
The Adventures of Huckabee Finn
March 2nd, 2011
1:20 pm
Nevermind. I see now, Topeka. Glad it’s not in GA.
Georgia has its own.
Logical Dude
March 2nd, 2011
1:27 pm
(I’m late, I know)
What most people need to understand is that “Westboro Baptist Church” is NOT a church. It is a bunch of lawyers grabbing money from the greiving. They put themselves in situations where they HOPE someone sues them, or does a violent act against them so THEY can sue to get money from the very people they heckle.
It’s a scam, and since they are lawyers, so they know their rights, and limits, and of course, now they have the support of the Supreme Court.
Unfortunately, there are people who agree with what they say and send money to them. Every time you think there is progress in this country, there are people that pull us right back down.
Ragnar Danneskjöld
March 2nd, 2011
1:29 pm
Dear Dave R @ 12:51, I respectfully disagree. “Either way, the Framers didn’t want “government” to restrict speech.” The writers of the Constitution knew the difference between “Congress” and “government.”
At the time of the Constitution, the state governments were at least as strong as that of the central government. The original authors of the Constitution – not to the confused with those of the Warren Court, who gave us our present Constitution – thought they were limiting the central government, leaving the sovereign states to establish their own limits.
@@
March 2nd, 2011
1:33 pm
LD:
They put themselves in situations where they HOPE someone sues them, or does a violent act against them so THEY can sue to get money from the very people they heckle.
I’ve read that same thing. Maybe the best solution is to ignore them…shelter the families as best we can…and IGNORE them. The media should IGNORE them. Even jay says they’re attention-seeking while giving them attention with this thread.
They’ll dry up and blow away…much like the dust in Kansas during the 30’s.
Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
March 2nd, 2011
1:34 pm
03
I think that one flew over my head. Been using the brain too much today.