In Florida, chilling testimony against guns on campus

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What the story of the accidental discharge shooting by drunken frat boys has to do with legal concealed carry on campus escapes me.

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godless heathen, you don’t think more guns on campus would not cause more of this sort of thing?

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“Why do doctors need to know if someone owns a gun? Just curious”

Check around on suicides and how many of them use guns

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Why does the Florida senate want to get involved in the private relationship between a doctor and a patient? Seriously?

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Will HOPE pay for the gun?

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Kitty, what would be the next step after the question was` asked? Automatic 72 hour evaluation against the patients will or government searches of private homes? Just wondering.

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If they think that if a student had a gun when the Virginia shooting happened, all I can say is that you rarely ever beat a person who is already shooting to the draw.

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Hope means “I don’t have a plan”.

Also in the news:
Don’t let the news out of the Middle East fool you:
“It’s really Big Bad George Bush and his evil Oil Buddies making more profits at it again.”
http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/24/markets/oil/index.htm?cnn=yes&hpt=T2

http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/24/markets/oil/index.htm?cnn=yes&hpt=T2

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I’m sorry for the beautiful victim in this case. As a caring American, this very, very deeply bothers me. This innocent human tragically left this earth much, much, much too soon.

With that said, I’m on the same said with @Real Scooter: Why does a doctor have to know about firearms in a household? It just doesn’t make any common sense to me.

Many liberal seculars on this board argue that college-age kids are old enough to engage in the drink, sexual debauchery and go to war. OK, then why can’t they own firearms, Jay? Yes, this incident was unfortunate, but these young adults needed to be responsible for their firearms. THIS IS CALLED PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. Prosecute these immature brats to the fullest extent of the law and use them as an example to others.

Amen,
Bill

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That shooting is totally irrelevant to SB234. A 20-year old cannot obtain a concealed carry permit in Florida, and a rifle cannot be carried concealed and would not be carried on campus by a CCW holder for self defense.

Further, drunken fratboy types don’t have the self-discipline needed to obtain a CCW permit, they don’t want to spend either the time or the money it requires.

Florida statistics show that CCW holders are more responsible than the general population. Why would that change on a campus?

Dr. Cowie’s loss is tragic, but it should not be used to judge the value of SB234. It would be like pointing to a fatal accident by students in an illegal street race as a reason students shouldn’t be allowed to park on campus.

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“Allowing guns in an atmosphere of college parties puts everyone involved at increased and undue risk,” Cowie told senators

1) What about cars? What are the stats on students killed in that manner or falling off dorm balconies while drunk?

2) I am assuming the frat party was on campus. Therefore, what was the rifle doing there. It’s against the law!

Did it stop him? No
Would it stop a criminal? No
Would it stop a mentally disturbed “active shooter on campus”? No
Would it stop a terrorist cell on campus? No

3) Guns on campus is not some kind of horrid disease. They’re already there.

Law enforcement
Anyone who wants to break the law.

4) All students should not have the right to carry on campus. That would be absurd and no one is saying that anywhere. For one thing, state law prohibits it for those under 21.

So who “should” have the right to carry on campus:

All of the below must be over 21 with a valid permit if required (Vermont requires nothing).

Off Duty law enforcement officers
Former law enforcement officers
Former military personnel
R.O.T.C. personnel
Students 21 years of age

5) How many people can an active shooter on campus kill in 20 seconds (supposing the campus police were that close instead of 5 minutes away).

Answer: As many as he can find.

Just one person with a weapon can make a difference and the perpetrator doesn’t even have to be shot or even shot at. Many of them “cower out” and commit suicide when they feel it’s over. Seeing an armed person may cause him to seek cover.

ANYTHING that will save just one life ………… that family will be grateful.

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““A growing political agenda is being carried out in examination rooms,” Hammer said”

With that I agree — but remember, what’s good for the goose, is good for the gander.

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godless,

Maybe, maybe, maybe, whatever — guns do not belong on college campuses. Period.

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Trouble is all you concealed gun people always assume you are going to be faster than the other guy…maybe not.

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Normal,

Or that life is like the TV shows, and they aren’t.

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Godless,
At the college My Grand daughter went to, you could call a campus cop to escort you back to your dorm

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Normal, It’s not about thinking you are faster than the other guy but having a chance beats………………

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Joe,
If I’m already shooting people and I see you reach inside your coat, your having that gun will only give me another one after I shoot you in the head…

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I hope these gun toten’ fraidy cats buy insurance too, maybe they can get some sleep.

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Scooter, it may be the GP that recognizes the danger of the depression before it ever gets to a psychiatrist. the GP may then refer them to a psychiatrist. See my point.

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Bosch:

What are your thoughts on my 12:31?

Anyone else ?

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Joe Plumber,

In Georgia, it is not difficult to get someone involuntarily committed. I know someone who got committed when she was in the ER for another issue and said she “was so mad, she could kill herself.” They were worried that she was suicidal.

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Using “chilling testimony” to decry restrictions on what doctors–doctors whom the federal government seems to want to make into shackled federal employees–can ask their patients about a scenario that is none of their business?

Makes sense to me.

I agree that guns in frat houses are generally a bad idea, but the way that your tortured logic has tied these two disjointed events with gauze, duct tape and ball bearings is just a bit unseemly.

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December 30, 2010

“The Gun Is Civilization” by Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret)

“Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force.
If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force.
Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that’s it.

In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion.
Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force.
You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force.

The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations.
These are the people who think that we’d be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a [armed] mugger to do his job.
That, of course, is only true if the mugger’s potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat–it has no validity when most of a mugger’s potential marks are armed.

People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that’s the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

Then there’s the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury.
This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser.

People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don’t constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst.
The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level.

The gun is the only weapon that’s as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter.
It simply wouldn’t work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn’t both lethal and easily employable.

When I carry a gun, I don’t do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I’m looking to be left alone.
The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don’t carry it because I’m afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn’t limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.
It removes force from the equation… and that’s why carrying a gun is a civilized act.”

http://www.athenstalks.com/node/89030

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You can pretty much take this to the bank.

When it comes to gun legislation, if the cops and safety officers are against it, the neo-cons are for it. And vice versa.

It’s that simple.

The GOP has become the Anti-Law & Order Party…

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Kitty, that leads me to the conclusion that many would lie to the doctor either way, if they were attention seekers they may say they have one when they don’t or if they were serious, they could say they don’t have one when they do. The only thing that seems certain would be even more distrust in doctors than alot of people have now.

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For all you right-wing veteran haters:

As you know, in Wisconsin and a number of other of states, governors are trying to take away the right of unions to collectively bargain. If you thought this didn’t affect veterans, think again. Take a moment to view a short video I’ve recorded on the subject, and stand with us, as we stand up for workers.

Sincerely,
Ashwin Madia
Iraq War Veteran
Interim Chairman, VoteVets.org

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Let’s see, we have had so much success with stopping underage possession of alcohol and drug useage on campus, we ought to expand our efforts to include firearms.

I is terrible that this tragic senseless accident happened, but the fact it was attended by college kids or maybe on a college campus is a specious factoid. Kids are killed everyday with firearms in College Park and at highschool parties, meetups, drug exchanges, etc. Usually with illegally obtained firearms and by non licensed firearm users.

So, if we can get them through the high school years alive, we can insure their safety when they get to college. Right!

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Normal@12:36 “Trouble is all of you concealed gun people always assume you are going to be faster than the other guy.” When you say “all” aren’t you making an assumption that’s only an assumed guess. Obviously, you don’t really know what all who carry a weapon might think or do in any given situation, right?

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From Voilence Policy Center

Above is the current tally from May 2007 to the present of killings by persons with concealed carry permits or who committed a killing in public with a legal handgun in a state that allows concealed carry without a permit (Alaska, Arizona, and Vermont allow the carrying of concealed handguns without a permit). The killings are broken out by specific categories and a killing may fit into more than one category. Because the VPC relies primarily on news reports for the majority of incidents, the actual numbers are most likely far higher. This tally is updated monthly.

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Arming students and teachers would not save lives in the rare instances where mass shootings occur on campus. Even trained police officers, on average, hit their intended targets less than 20% of the time

From Bradycampaign.org

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There is a very strong argument that the NRA is not remotely concerned with public safety.

Every cop in the land was OBVIOUSLY against cop-killer bullets and enormously powerful automatic weapons.And many other pieces of deadly, misguided cop-out (get it?) legislation.

The NRA boobs were for them. Each and every one.

They simply pander to their base, which is a small special interest group with VERY large mouths…

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Well, I bet if this bill passes the number of colledge flunk-outs in FL will fall thru the basement floor. Everybody will get passing grades and the colledge drop-out problem will be solved once and for all.

The reason is because those pointy-headed colledge teachers will think twice before flunking students. They never can tell if a student is supported by Smith & Wesson and will whip it out and do a little tattoo on the teacher’s head and chest.

Seems to me we could use this kind of law in GA. I bet nobody would ever loose a Hope Scholarship because of low grades if we had that kind of law.

Have a good p.m. everybody.

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But I can say that that bombastic organization is defending one of your constitutional rights.

how, pray tell, are they doing that by seeing to it that doctors are fined for asking their patients about guns? How are my rights being protected?

Is that going to make any difference whatsoever in the ease or difficulty in my procurement of a firearm for my own use?

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Normal: HOPE pays for the gun because as we all know if you don’t have to pay your total cost then you have more money to put towards other things, like guns. Or was it campaign contributions? Or maybe it was abortion?

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Bosch – “Anybody who thinks college kids should be allowed to carry guns is obviously too stupid to breathe.”

Wow.

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Scooter:

Thank you …………………..

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PJ

February 24th, 2011
1:05 pm

You really need to educate yourself on this topic PJ!

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Dems….oh those evil rich and evil guns. What can we do to contain them?

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“The issue is that Jay used a red herring in his argument and Dr. Cowle’s testimony is irrelevant. How would the passage of the law change the circumstances relevant to the girls death?”

Larry, I don’t disagree. And i am not advocating more legislation, particularly as I do not know the existing relevant legislation.

But seriously, this statement about red herrings may be the most absurd I have *ever* seen.

As I said the issue is Jay’s use of a red herring to stir up debate and ignore the bufoon (sic) in the WH.

You denigrate the use of red herrings by doing what?

Using a red herring.

Incredible…

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i have no dog in this hunt. but it seems silly to permit weapons on college campuses. that said, given the mass shootings on campus, i can see the counter argument.

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because if you do, I won’t give you the pain medication which has the nasty side effect of depression.

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What percent of the population do school teachers represent? Yet every politician panders for their support.

Well, you see, teachers actually perform a service of value.

Whereas, NRA members? not so much.

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0311…..AMEN!

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“Really now” he said. If my doc asks me if I own a gun, I’ll tell him it’s none his business and then look for another doc. This subject is getting lots more attention than it deserves.

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Keep up the good fight…REALLY? So I guess you are saying that our military and police officers would be better protected if they did not carry guns?

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sfd:

You asked about why, not should.

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“This subject is getting lots more attention than it deserves.”

No, it isn’t. When it comes to that law about doctors, it is NOT about the patient…it’s about intimidation of the DOCTOR.

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Scout Zero…the reference to the Brady Bunch…are you referring to the Brady Center? Really is it necessary to demean with your trite silliness the name of a man injured in the line of duty serving his president and this country. Do you feel only the military deserve respect? Petty aren’t you.

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If Jesus were here, he would carry a gun.

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FIRST again!

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Hmmmm….non of the Dems want to answer this question. Would our soldiers or police officers be more safe without guns?

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Del

February 24th, 2011
1:02 pm

Of course, Del. Like I just told Scout. When the rounds start flying
most will freeze and die.

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W:

He made a whip once and drove the money changers from His Temple.

That was kind of harsh.

He also once told his disciples, “he that hath no sword, sell his garment and buy one.”

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yet a congresswoman was shot, and a judge and others were assassinated with ease. no one else fired a shot. even if they had guns, they were too busy diving for cover.

this argument that guns stop shooters is weak sauce… guns cause shootings, and the more guns are around, the more shootings there are

i say tax the ammo into oblivion. ammunition should cost $30 per bullet.

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GW….”good guys” is not trained police officers…in the context of the response to a prior point. But sure, be absurd.

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Myself ,and Every gun owner I know, could care less what laws or regulations are passed concerning owning or carrying guns.

“Gun control” means the ability to curtail an out of control and corrupt government.

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godless heathen @1:12 pm: Yeah, the criminal element and gun smuggles to Mexico appreciated them too.

Real Scooter @1:14 pm: One which subject, the shooting, the NRA or the 2nd amendment. I would like to point out to you that a large part of making an educated argument is to point out exactly what point you disagree with when several topics are brought up.

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jt:

People don’t like to admit it but that is exactly why the Second Amendment was put into the Constitution ……. all the other reasons for having a gun (hunting, collecting, protection, etc.) were automatically assumed.

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“Doctors turned out in force to oppose the measure, saying it hampers their ability to evaluate patient safety”

Doctors, do your frikkin’ job and treat illnesses, and stay out of the “evaluate safety” realm. That is for the individual or the parents to ascertain.

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Normal:

He did because Peter was trying to stop His arrest (and thereby crucifixion).

He had just prayed to the Father, “not My will but Your’s be done).

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stands for decibels

February 24th, 2011
1:11 pm

Please see 1:29 to AmVet. Maybe it will help you understand what the NRA is doing for you.

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scout

That sheepdog analogy is way too simplistic because a rattlesnake or ticks can take down any dog….

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0311…..I think it hilarious that those on the left do not know what your name means. Says something about them huh?

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Scout,
A question. Since Judas had to betray Christ to fulfill the Crucifixion, was he forgiven by God? And if so, why does Christian man
not celebrate him as a Saint? After all, he was an instrument of God.

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This isn’t about doing what’s right. This is about the GOP whoring for the NRA. Republicans do anything for a buck.

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0311…..I think it hilarious that those on the left do not know what your name means. Says something about them huh?

It means he carries the mark.

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md @ 1.37, two things:

1. You’re talking about armed Americans. I’m taking about the guys, at best perhaps one in about 20 of those American gun owners, who financially support the NRA and its lobbying efforts.

2. Your colorful quote aside, I really don’t think the number of private arms played much if any of a role in whether or not the Japanese were ever going to invade our mainland, given that only a tiny percentage of civilian gun owners have ever been scenario-trained to actually use these things effectively against bad guys.

anyway, gotta leave the time suck. later, all.

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The Price is Right…..nope.

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“Yep, because guns are just SO useful against high power sniper rifles, strafing helicoptors and BOMBS.”

yep, because those rocks they are using are way better…………………

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thomas

February 24th, 2011
1:19 pm

I would provide a link for you but it comes from the NRA and all the libs here would say it’s not credible. Yes there is less crime where lawful people have guns!

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0311/0317 – 1811/1801

I am aware of what you say.(second amendment), but , as a law enforcer, wouldn’t you prefer to have an unarmed populance?

Or are you standing with your principles?(I know that this idea is alien to most progressives).

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Doggone/GA:

Given enough people it works.

Little by little the weapons from the “other side” are obtained.

As time goes on it evens out and …………..

Eventually, the number of armed people will overwhelm the situation.

Also, remember that soldiers have families too and many of them may agree with the revolting side.
As a result, some in the military defect and bring their weapons with them.

That’s the real world.

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jt:

Heaven’s know.

The bad guys will have their weapons anyway.

A legal gun toter could come to a police officer’s aid. It’s happened before.

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“I really don’t think the number of private arms played much if any of a role in whether or not the Japanese were ever going to invade our mainland, given that only a tiny percentage of civilian gun owners have ever been scenario-trained to actually use these things effectively against bad guys.”

I’d have to disagree………one would think that just knowing there were 20+ million guns to worry about vs knowing there was a fraction thereof would be relevant information in planning any invasion.

A scared women/child with a gun has a pretty good chance of hitting something if their lives depended on it.

Much better than the rocks the Libyans are stuck with…………….

20 million guns or 20 million rocks………….hmmmmmmmm

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“Nope, the guns were EQUALLY INEFFECTIVE”

BS…………given enough folks with guns increases the odds of survival vs that same number of folks with a bunch of rocks……………

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“20 million guns or 20 million rocks………….hmmmmmmmm”

A rock can be reused…a bullet can’t. And when you run out of bullets, all you have left in your hand is a fancy rock.

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Every human has the right to self defence.

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Far more people are killed in auto accidents.

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Doggone….you mean like the guys who shoot at Superman to no effect and then throw the gun at him?

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Good Fight:

Let me explain it this way regarding your statistics.

I’m sure you have heard of the 4th, 5th and 6th amendments. Even a “technical” violation of one of those Amendments will cause a murderer to be set free. It happens quite often and what do the animals do? They go out and rape, molest and murder again.

But …………. those Amendments are so sacred to all of us …………… that some people pay the price with their lives including children.

The Second Amendment is no less sacred.

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PJ

February 24th, 2011
1:36 pm

Never mind PJ. You obviously don’t want to educate yourself on both sides of this issue.I do like your fancy double talk though.

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Speaking of guns, I read an article about some state employee up north recommending the use of deadly force by the police on the non-violent protestors. Fortunately that idiot no longer has a job.

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The Price is Right :

Let me explain it to you this way:

Undercover officers and off duty officers face this all of the time when they take action during a crime.
Sometimes it doesn’t turn out for the best but that’s just the way it is. An officer “will act” to save lives.

A legal gun toter would be no different. Unlike most criminals, when legal gun toters see the police officer and here, “drop the gun” ………. he will drop the gun!

It’s worth the effort to save lives.

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Scout,
Seems to me that a good ACLU lawyer would have gotten Judas off.

Seems awfully unfair to me and that’s one of the many reasons I choose not to believe.

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Doggone/GA :

It’s a tough issue to most people. Thanks for the honesty which is usually lacking on here.

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In 2004 the most recent year for which data is available, there were 29,569 gun deaths in the US.

Car accidents kill more. But not many more.

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Guns are for rabbits, not kids.

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Normal:

I hear you ………….. but if I and millions of others are right, that would be a terrible reason to go into eternity without God.

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Scout Zero…let me explain it to you this way. There are restrictions and limitations on when and how the 4, 5 and 6th Amendments are applied. There are times you are entitled to Miranda and times you are not. Your interpretation of the 2d Amendment is not sacred, it is an interpretation. There is NO valid argument that the US Constitutions precludes any and all Federal or State Governments restrictions on gun.

As for your claims that “technical violations happen quite often” that would be an indictment of police officers generally who fail to follow rules like violating search and seizure rules, illegal wiretaps, etc. and perhaps some people pay the price because the police officers did not follow rules like being beaten after surrender, or being killed on a no-knock entry…..but your unsupported claim that it happens “quite often” is simply in error.

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This isn’t about doing what’s right. This is about the GOP whoring for the NRA. Republicans do anything for a buck.

Kinda like the DNC wh0ring for the unions ain’t it?

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AmVet, Please explain what a “Cop Killer” bullet is. I’ve never seen them in any gun store I’ve been in.

NRA only has 4 million members. That may be right but they have another 4 million + people who support them. I being in the second group. Why you ask, do I not join the NRA? If the bed wetters ever pass a law to ban guns, who do you think they will go after first? NRA members.

I’ve worked on a campus for over 25 years and can assure there are guns on campus every day.

Bosch, You claim that “guns should not be allowed on campus, period” That’s just your opinion and we know what opinions are…

Some have said that a 19 or 20 year old is too dumb to carry a gun on campus. I would like to point out their are plenty of 19 and 20 year old people defending our country.

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“In 2004 the most recent year for which data is available, there were 29,569 gun deaths in the US.”

Now, post the numbers from Mexico………..I think there has been a wee bit of an increase since they passed their gun ban……………

Criminals could care less what the laws say…….why would anyone want them to know nobody else is armed??

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It is none of a doctors damn business whether or not I own a gun.

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Yes, most are wh ores for corporate including the media.

They spend most of their lives bowing down for that corporate dollar.

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Anyone here know who stopped the Pearle Miss school shooter-and how he did it?

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The Price is right….why do you hate the constitution?

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NJ

February 24th, 2011
1:49 pm

We are glad you are going back to being a yankee intead of being here and being a damn yankee! Yee Haw!

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“This shooting happened OFF campus”

I’ve got the answer! We let them have guns on campus…but they have to leave them there when they go home. How’s that?

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The Price….that is exactly what I thought! Thanks.

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Scout,

What do I think of your 12:31 — well, I’ll put it this way — I’ll tell you what I think of guns in general:

I think that guns should be outlawed from the general population — I think the only people who should be allowed to carry a gun are policemen and military people — every one else, no.

And, from my personal knowledge of many police officers, I don’t think they should be able to carry them either.

If you are ever in a situation that warrants you to pull out a fire arm of any kind — you have already lost and you are more likely to kill yourself or a loved one than you are to kill a ‘bad guy.”

I think that men who feel the need to carry a gun are simply paranoid freaks who some how feel more “manly” if they have one, but are actually inadequate in other areas and this somehow raises their testosterone levels that are dangerous.

I think the 2nd amendment should be repealed. Immediately — and if I were ever some how by the miracle of the Lord made POTUS, that would be the first thing on my plate to do.

So, how’s that for my opinion?

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Make that – “some of them” as in police officers — I’ve known police officers that the thoughts of them armed is enough to keep me awake at night.

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We probably should ban cars too since they kill way more college kids in the non-stop drunkeness that apparently is college.

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A gun in the home is 4 times more likely to be used in an unintentional shooting than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense

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“So, how’s that for my opinion?”

Sounds great….just don’t run for office.

And that “general population” you speak of………those are the guys in prison for not following the rules.

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md,

Don’t worry about me running for office md, I inhaled.

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“A gun in the home is 4 times more likely to be used in an unintentional shooting than to be used to injure or kill in self-defense”

A gun in the hand of a criminal is 100 times more likely to kill someone that doesn’t have a gun in their hand…………

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For all you health nuts out there..

Life should NOT be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in an attractive and well-preserved body, but rather to skid in sideways – Chardonnay in one hand – chocolate in the other – body thoroughly used up, totally worn out and screaming “WOO-HOO, what a ride!!”

AND…..

For those of you who watch what you eat, here’s the final word on nutrition and health. It’s a relief to know the truth after all those conflicting nutritional studies.

1. The Japanese eat very little fat and suffer fewer heart attacks than Americans.

2. The Mexicans eat a lot of fat and suffer fewer heart attacks than Americans.

3. The Chinese drink very little red wine and suffer fewer heart attacks than Americans.

4. The Italians drink a lot of red wine and suffer fewer heart attacks than Americans..

5. The Germans drink a lot of beer and eat lots of sausages and fats and suffer fewer heart attacks than Americans.

CONCLUSION:

Eat and drink what you like. Speaking English is apparently what kills you.

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That shooting did not happen on campus. This guy needs to get out of the way of people’s rights.

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According to the National Self Defense Survey conducted by Florida State University criminologists in 1994, the rate of Defensive Gun Uses can be projected nationwide to approximately 2.5 million per year — one Defensive Gun Use every 13 seconds.

Among 15.7% of gun defenders interviewed nationwide during The National Self Defense Survey, the defender believed that someone “almost certainly” would have died had the gun not been used for protection — a life saved by a privately held gun about once every 1.3 minutes. (In another 14.2% cases, the defender believed someone “probably” would have died if the gun hadn’t been used in defense.)

In 83.5% of these successful gun defenses, the attacker either threatened or used force first — disproving the myth that having a gun available for defense wouldn’t make any difference.

In 91.7% of these incidents the defensive use of a gun did not wound or kill the criminal attacker (and the gun defense wouldn’t be called “newsworthy” by newspaper or TV news editors). In 64.2% of these gun-defense cases, the police learned of the defense, which means that the media could also find out and report on them if they chose to.

In 73.4% of these gun-defense incidents, the attacker was a stranger to the intended victim. (Defenses against a family member or intimate were rare — well under 10%.) This disproves the myth that a gun kept for defense will most likely be used against a family member or someone you love.

In over half of these gun defense incidents, the defender was facing two or more attackers — and three or more attackers in over a quarter of these cases. (No means of defense other than a firearm — martial arts, pepper spray, or stun guns — gives a potential victim a decent chance of getting away uninjured when facing multiple attackers.)

In 79.7% of these gun defenses, the defender used a concealable handgun. A quarter of the gun defenses occurred in places away from the defender’s home.

http://www.pulpless.com/gunclock/stats.html

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Well I guess if you HAVE to pull out a gun you haven’t always lost. Somebody has lost but not always the gun puller.

1. Marine opens fire in apartment parking lot

An Oklahoma City marine who was on leave suddenly began opening fire in the parking lot of his apartment complex late last year. Witnesses said he originally tried to go into the apartment complex’s main office, but after employees locked him out, he started to fire his gun in the parking lot. As he was firing, another citizen with a concealed handgun came around the corner and ordered him to drop his weapon. It worked and no one was hurt.

2. Restaurant owner shoots, kills armed robbers

Just a few short days ago, 2 suspects walked into a restaurant to order food. When the employee opened the register, one of the men pulled a handgun and threatened the employees. The suspect then reached over the counter and grabbed the money. He then turned and pointed the gun toward the owner of the restaurant who was sitting at a table in the middle of the restaurant. The owner pulled out his own gun, shot the criminal in the chest, and killed him.

3. Man killed in attempted robbery

In November 2009, career criminal Kevin Duane Dudley walked into an Alabama business with a sawed-off shotgun to commit armed robbery. Thankfully, some shoppers were able to distract Dudley long off for the owner of the store to retrieve his gun and defend himself. The owner ended up shooting and killing the criminal. Dudley had been tied to several other robberies in the area as well as a recent murder.

4. Two armed robbers get shot during home invasion

When two masked men with guns broke into his home and pointed their weapons at one of the residents, Cody Buckler immediately took action. He retrieved his gun from upstairs and began shooting at the criminals. The crooks fled the scene, leaving a trail of blood behind them. The criminals were eventually apprehended.

5. Mass shooting stopped by armed volunteer security guard

In December 2007, Matthew Murray pledged he wanted to kill as many Christians as he could. The 24-year-old went to New Life Church in Colorado Springs and opened fire, killing 4 people in the process. Thankfully, an armed security guard was able to get his her weapon and shoot Murray several times, stopping him from killing any others. However, in the end, it was Murray’s own self-inflicted gunshot that ended up killing him.

6. School shooter stopped by armed college students

In 2002, a shooting at Appalachian School of Law left 3 people dead. However, the shooter was stopped before he could kill any more people. Thankfully, 2 students were able to run to their cars, get their guns, and use their weapons to halt the rampage.

7. Grandma stops intruder

When 69-year-old Ethel Jones heard her doors rattling at 3 a.m., she grabbed her gun from underneath the pillow next to her. She ended up finding an intruder inside her bedroom, forcing her to shoot the teen in the abdomen. The teenager survived and faced charges of second-degree burglary.

8. Pizza Hut delivery driver says his gun saved his life

An unnamed Pizza Hut delivery driver started carrying a legal concealed handgun to work after being robbed twice in the last 2 years. Just last week, he was robbed by 2 armed men inside the restaurant. The men pistol whipped him and as they started to lift the driver’s shirt exposing his gun, the worker pulled out his weapon and opened fire. He said he had no other choice but to act and save his life.

http://nakedlaw.avvo.com/2010/10/8-horrible-crimes-stopped-by-legal-gun-owners/

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Most students won’t be carrying. Only 21 or older licensed carriers. A campus is no different than anywhere else in public where licensed carriers practice their right.

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Are you depressed, emotional? Have you thought of killing yourself? With a gun? Would you put the gun in your mouth and pull the trigger? Or shoot yourself in the temple? You know it wouldn’t hurt.

I knew I should have taken psychology. I didn’t once ask the patient if he had a gun.

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Great. Only the kids legally able to get drunk can carry. Legally. I’m just saying.

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May be in your mind it is.

Likewise.

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“The question about firearms is included with other safety topics including carseats, bicycle helmets, access to (prescription) meds, smoke detectors, hot water heaters, etc.”

No offense, but none of that stuff is any of your business, and none of that stuff has anything to do with a visit to a physician.

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@ Bosch
So, how’s that for my opinion?

With all due respect,I think it is asking for tyranny.

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Question:

Can a State win a Darwin Award?

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@Bosch,

“The successful use of a weapon to ward off an attack is not recorded each and every time.”

So therefore you don’t know jack sh*t about those statistics either, right?

***********

I know that the successful use of a gun to defend oneself is more than what has been reported.

And I think you are very familiar with Jack….but I do not think that it’s something you should brag about.

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Doggone…..OMG! What is this country becoming? How are they justifying allowing a knife in school?

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Normal, not necessarily true. Adrenalin works in ones favor in the first few seconds. Uncontrollable shaking can occur when the firing ceases and the adrenalin still racing around in the system turns from motivating action to producing extreme fear. A non-combat experienced shooter who has sufficiently practiced with his or her weapon is at least as deadly in the critical first few seconds as your average criminal and quite likely more so.

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“Doggone…..OMG! What is this country becoming? How are they justifying allowing a knife in school?”

I posted a link

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Doggone….I know I saw it.

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Bosch…that was probably the most naive thing I’ve seen written on this blog…But you are entitled to your opinion. I support you by the way and believe you should have every right not to purchase a firearm. You can even pass a covenant in your neighborhood denying gun ownership. Just make sure you advertise. It’ll make the crime rate in the surrounding neighborhoods go way down.

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Who would have ever thought it. Roger Ailes is just your ordinary everyday FOXy crook, with money so he can wield more influence.

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I say any kid can carry a knife in school. As long as they first prove that it can fit up their a$$.

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You can argue this one anyway you want, but in the end guns do not kill people, people with guns kill people. Can’t get around that simple fact.

Since I moved to Georgia, I have simple seen too many people who were killed because of the easy accessibility to guns. Common sense would indicate that if these weapons were not so easily available, the deaths would not have occurred.

The aversion to have guns and their owners registered reminds me of the conservative arguments about the security checks and various lists that now exist because of 9/11. Their argument was that if you were not “guilty” you should not mind being checked out when you purchase a gun or being licensed or registered in some way on some list.

Today I bought a new car. They had to do a HOMELAND SECURITY check on my purchasing a new vehicle and I was told that anytime anyone makes a purchase of anything that costs more than a thousand dollars, you have to be checked out on a Homeland Security Database. Unless that item is a gun. That is absurd.

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PJ

February 24th, 2011
2:45 pm

I said never mind brainiac!

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How is bringing a dull kinfe to school worse than bringing a loaded gun to school?

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A tragic story for sure, that father’s grief is palpable.

However like several previous posters I am perplexed how the accidental discharge of an AK47 relates to concealed handgun carry. For the benefit of non-shooters the AK47 is a rifle. Do people not understand that mass murders like the one @ VA Tech are facilitated because the perpetrator knows the intended victims are unarmed? It comes down to whether you’d rather submit meekly to slaughter by some homicidal maniac or you’d like to have the means to save your life and maybe others’ lives as well.

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NJ 2:53 – dude you’re whack. everyone who buys a flat screen TV is not being checked out

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Now everyone who has ever witnessed a vehicular accident and rammed the car before it crashed and caused death and injury, raise your hand!

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Libya and Atlanta have the same population. Food for thought.

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Well- the Pearl High shooting was halted when an asst principal ran to his pickup-haha- grabbed his .45 – and forced the kid to give up. I think he killed two, and hurt five, too lazy to google.

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“Doggone….I know I saw it”

Then why did you ask? Too lazy to read the articla that actually EXPLAINS IT?

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md,

Nah, just pointing out the right’s hypocrisy.

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Real Scooter @2:54 pm

“never mind” means stop responding. Now who needs and education?

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Hypocracy. That’s the latin word for retarded?

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Someone quoted the number of gun deaths each year in the U.S Fair enough. Now how many were good gun deaths. Cop kills robber. Blood kills crip. Lady kills rapist. Homeowner shoots intruder.

I dunno-but total deaths- or shootings- well some of them were great deeds!

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Common Sense,

And how many here have been in either situation? Yeah, that’s what I thought.

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“You and I both know that kids have been expelled from public schools for carrying “weapons” (like a finger nail file or tiny swiss army knife) that are far less dangerous than the Sikh knives in question”

You obviously did NOT read the article, or the quote from it that I posted.

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The left has already lost the gun control war. Too bad too sad. Same goes for the right-on abortion. Cry some for me.

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If the dude hadn’t been breaking the law by drinking underage, this never would have happened. Don’t blame constitutional rights when enforcement of existing law would have prevented the problem.

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And if you think it’s unrealistic to enforce the underage drinking laws, then that’s a damn good reason to get rid of them.

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NEWARK, Del. — “Finding character witnesses when you are 6 years old is not easy. But there was Zachary Christie last week at a school disciplinary committee hearing with his karate instructor and his mother’s fiancé by his side to vouch for him.

Zachary’s offense? Taking a camping utensil that can serve as a knife, fork and spoon to school. He was so excited about recently joining the Cub Scouts that he wanted to use it at lunch. School officials concluded that he had violated their zero-tolerance policy on weapons, and Zachary was suspended and now faces 45 days in the district’s reform school.”

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Jay: Dunno about Arizona, but there were plenty of chances at Virginia Tech to stop the rampage, if some brave student had been carrying.

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Lobbyists: White House sends meetings off-site to hide them

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0211/50081.html#ixzz1EuPMhpwV

More Obama Lies:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2SlBlvirqA0&playnext=1&list=PLF8CD25F92BFC4A7F

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D. Holliday, The liberal mind set will never understand the logic you’ve made with your 2:56 post.

While others apparently can find logic where it does not reside.

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“Dunno about Arizona”

They guy in Arizona was stopped by unarmed citizens. The only report of an armed citizen reported that he ALMOST shot one of the unarmed citizens who had picked up the shooter’s gun, thinking that citizen was the shooter.

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Doggone, Bosch, Price is Right…

I’m willing to sign papers waiving any future rights to government handouts, up to and including retirement benefits, government healthcare, unemployment benefits, food stamps, welfare, etc, etc.

You guys up to the same challenge? Didn’t think so…

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“I’m willing to sign papers waiving any future rights to government”

roads, highways, police, fire services, clean water, safe food?

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Most Right Wingnuts I know would wet their pants and be the first ones pushing the women out from under the table if they were ever in a violent altercation situation. Gun or no gun. But give ‘em a damn computer and all of a sudden they have the biggest winkies in the world!

And before you spout off some more made up statistics at me, I live in Alpharetta. I know plenty.

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Bosch…think we would have been able to overthrow the British during the American Revolution if the British had effectivel banned the populace from owning guns?

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Jay, quite to the contrary homicidal maniacs do count on knowing that their victims are unable to defend themselves. Their objective is to murder as many as possible before taking their own life or being killed by police after they’ve caused mass death.

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How many citizens with conceal and carry permits have killed people with a gun?

What percentage of all deaths by gun were committed by those with conceal and carry permits?

Of those that killed with a conceal and carry permit how many were in the attempt to prevent a crime?

Does anyone know where to get these facts?

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“But a bullet can make a much more satifying hole in a bad guy”

If you’re close enough to actually hit him BEFORE he hits you. Cardinal rule of warfare: if the enemy is in range…so are you

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” 90% of those expenses are state 7 local items”

“I’m willing to sign papers waiving any future rights to government handouts”

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Obama becoming business friendly (or even neutral), my a-s…. jesus. 2 more frickin years of this.

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“And you’d be right, because I’m glad I live in a country that if I should ever need one I wouldn’t be forced to live in the street or be forced to steal or beg for food, or that when I retire I would have something to support myself though the payments I’ve made during the years I’ve worked so that my kids wouldn’t have to support me, or again, live in the streets.”

TRANSLATION: Yes Harry, I’m a bedwetting liberal that expects the top 10% of wage earners to take care of all the rest of us…

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“What I aim for; I hit.”

And what makes you think the other guy isn’t just as good, or better?

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If Obama is re-elected, I really gotta find another place….

Obama has my vote then.

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“And what makes you think the other guy isn’t just as good, or better?”

Because I’m responsible for my own actions in all facets of life. I choose what will or will not happen to me based on observation and precaution at all times.

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“Really? Is that your reason to not being prepared to defend yourself?”

Why would you think I’m not prepared to defend myself?

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Harry Homohan “which is pretty much what you libbies do at the mere thought of taking personal responsibility for your own health care, retirement income, etc, etc….”
What the hell does that mean? And what does it have to do with Gun control?

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Will somebody pay jm some attention?

~~~~~~~~~~~

Harry,

Your translation is wrong — as is your assumptions. I expect people to take care of themselves, but some can’t — and as a country, we decided to help those people instead of letting them die off or beg for food in the streets — if you don’t like it, then run for office, get elected and change those laws.

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OH well, as to guns…

The crazies are going to get one if they want it; young, old or otherwise. So are criminals.

Anyone who would report a doctor for asking “Do you own a gun”, should have been asked “Do you own a gun?” by the doctor and the police.

Anyone blogging about a gun all afternoon should be 1-deprived of dinner 2-made to clean up the kitchen after dinner 3-shot at dawn with a slingshot….

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Too much Dirty Harry going on around here. I figure most of you macho men have never been in a firefight. If you had you wouldn’t have to wave your peepee envy around so much and you’d think about better ways to solve difference. The key word is think and most of y’all don’t.
See ya in the funny papers…

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“Not if they have rocks and you have a gun Doggone

And as I said before, when you are out of bullets all you have in your hand is a fancy rock

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@Thomas,

The article is in defense of the right to carry, not attacking it.

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Always Be Ready

February 24th, 2011
3:30 pm

I know i read it was hoping you could explain to me the logic of the counter point it is hard for me to gather right now!

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You guys up to the same challenge? Didn’t think so…

I’ve never collected food stamps or welfare or charity or any other form of handout. I’ve already paid into social security so I think I’ll collect some of what I paid in once I’m old enough. Of course, if I were some snot nosed kid that was feeling lucky and that had not worked long enough to actually have any vested interest in social security, then maybe I would have an attitude more in tune with yours. Probably not though. I actually stayed awake in school and learned the value of things like social safety nets in a civilized society and I actually took some of those Sunday School lessons about caring for others and such to heart…. things that seem to escape the typical conservative. Not that you’re necessarily typical, mind you.

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Too many pretend experts on here about weapons and those who who own them

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@Thomas,

there is no logic in the counterpoint. That’s why they must rely on emotional pleas, deny the fact that people do indeed each and every day successfully defend themselves.

When presented with the facts, silence ensues.

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@md,

and yet for those shot and murdered in a position where they were not allowed to even be prepared to defend themselves the probability was 100% wasn’t it?

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Uh, Mr.Proice is right, excuse me, but I’m 48 years old and I estimate that I have paid $180K into social security in my life time, which my employer has matched. I can also perform simple mathematics, which is how I know I could invest the same money into private securities and earn at least 5 times more than social security will ever pay me. I attend Sunday School too, and learned about voluntary giving, but somehow I never got to the part where you help yourself to other people’s money.

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Does any gun control advocate want to explain how making the concealing and carrying of a firearm illegal going to decrease the crime rate, when an overwhelming percentage of crimes are committed by those without permits? How would allowing those to conceal and carry increase the crime rate?

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Critics are right. This guy is the most socialist president we’ve had, at least since FDR (Nixon excluded)

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“and yet for those shot and murdered in a position where they were not allowed to even be prepared to defend themselves the probability was 100% wasn’t it?”

But yet I’d wager that no one has ever been in a position where they were prohibited from defending themselves.

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“They guy in Arizona was stopped by unarmed citizens. The only report of an armed citizen reported that he ALMOST shot one of the unarmed citizens who had picked up the shooter’s gun, thinking that citizen was the shooter.”

And the fact remains that if the shooter had not been brought down, this citizen would have been the only one between the shooter and more deaths. Still no cops in the immediate vicinity.

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True story. Had a relative who slept with his gun, ended up shooting himself in the leg.

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Too much Dirty Harry going on around here.

You can read his comments.

Or you can watch/listen to this. Same thing, basically.

Oh, and jm–your hyperventilating over the mere possibility that cramdowns MIGHT be part of some loan settlements is entirely predictable. You might try learning a bit more before you post. LIke, say, this bit from the article you linked:

The deal wouldn’t create any new government programs to reduce principal. Instead, it would allow banks to devise their own modifications or use existing government programs, people familiar with the matter said. Banks would also have to reduce second-lien mortgages when first mortgages are modified.

Then again, if it means we’ll have to lose you to some other corporatist paradise elsewhere on the globe, c’est le whatever.

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The Leg Lamp is a “major award”…..

February 24th, 2011
3:40 pm

I’ve been reeeeeeeeaaaaaaaal drunk before, intoxicated in many ways…..

Never been f’ed up enough to want to play with guns at that time.

Usually the type that “plays” with guns will find a way to harm themselves or others be it with the gun or some other way….

You can’t fix stupid, no matter how many laws or regulations one puts in place.

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Virginia Tech disproves that right off the bat.

But I bet you want to say they could, but just not with guns.

100% failure on your behalf.

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“Does any gun control advocate want to explain how making the concealing and carrying of a firearm illegal going to decrease the crime rate, when an overwhelming percentage of crimes are committed by those without permits? How would allowing those to conceal and carry increase the crime rate?””

Ummm, you really aren’t the sharpest tool in the drawer, are you? The right to carry concealed is to benefit the potential VICTIMS of crimes, not to deter the criminals. LMAO

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jm

I’m really sorry that no one is paying you any attention — I guess your “Obama is a socialist” rants are as boring to them as they are to me.

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Thank you, Poke ‘em..3:32

When we decide to have a prime minister, I’M READY. I’ll promise a (water) pistol in every pot. R U WITH ME???

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thomas

February 24th, 2011
3:38 pm

Good luck on getting an answer there dude!

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Bosch

February 24th, 2011
3:46 pm

Hell i always say we all have more in common thanwe have different…. but damn some i guess aren’t satisfied even when people agree with them.

Sometimes its makes me tired to come on this blog!

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Real Scooter

February 24th, 2011
3:46 pm

Seems like there is alot of blather and debating when that is the only question that needs to be answered before there is any further discussion. If it ain’t gone help then why talk about it?

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Bosch 3:44 – I could care less buddo

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Hey look, It’s George Bush and his evil Oil Buddies sticking it to us again!… (read sarcasm)

Crude breaches $119 in frantic trading…
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/3f985d7c-3d89-11e0-ae2a-00144feabdc0.html#axzz1Esb76xs1

CA Gas Station: $4.51 A Gallon…
http://losangeles.cbslocal.com/2011/02/24/san-gabriel-station-may-have-highest-gas-prices-in-us/

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USMC dawg

February 24th, 2011
3:49 pm

Its like Reagan! Far left liberals only invoke it when it fits their purposes.

Us on the conservative right side have our far out partners as well, its like our far righties who yak on and on about we have to cut the budget, but then denounce any and all mention of cutting defense spending.

Gotta stay away from the edges, right or left!

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“What I aim for, I hit”

But nobody ever adds the implied ending to that: if I have time

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USMC dawg
February 24th, 2011
3:53 pm

Yep. Darth Cheney and Haliburton are having a field day screwing the American public.

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FOREX-Swiss franc hits record on Libya fear; dollar falls

Translation. Ghadafi is busy transferring money to Switzerland out of any US (and other) accounts he happens to have.

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” But my internist? Hell No.”

And why do you think you would have to answer if HE did ask?

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Bosch

February 24th, 2011
3:53 pm

Again we will have to agree to disagree.

Me I feel safer knowing I have a gun in my home, in case sh*t happens, you do not feel that way.

we both know nothing either of us says will change the others opinion.

Some perfer to argue unwinnable arguments I suppose, never understanding ole Jay is just laughing cashing in on each unwinnable argument.

Is unwinnable a word?

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Hey look everyone, another example of the “transparent”, lobbyist-hating Obama adminstration.

”Caught between their boss’ anti-lobbyist rhetoric and the reality of governing, President Barack Obama’s aides often steer meetings with lobbyists to a complex just off the White House grounds — and several of the lobbyists involved say they believe the choice of venue is no accident.

It allows the Obama administration to keep these lobbyist meetings shielded from public view — and out of Secret Service logs kept on visitors to the White House and later released to the public.”

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Real Scooter

February 24th, 2011
3:57 pm

I think you have a point….. but too much pointless banter of your wrong, no your wrong, kinda makes me get bitter feelings.

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“I bet I know how”

Jay – you ought to start picking up these bets. You’d make a FORTUNE!

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but somehow I never got to the part where you help yourself to other people’s money.

Where did I say anything about helping myself to other people’s money. That must be yet another of your fantasies.

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“That sounds awful Homophobic there, Poke…
What happened to DIVERSITY and ACCEPTANCE???”

It’s the same as when they call people “tea_baggers”…seems leftists are always quickest to start ridiculing the LGBT community…

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Number of Solidly Democratic States Cut in Half From ‘08 to ‘10:

http://www.gallup.com/poll/146234/Number-Solidly-Democratic-States-Cut-Half.aspx?utm_source=alert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=syndication&utm_content=plaintextlink&utm_term=Politics

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Always be Ready @ 2:30

Thank you.

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“I bet I know how”

Jay – you ought to start picking up these bets. You’d make a FORTUNE!”

Hey Doggone…belly on up to the bar and put YOUR money where your mouth is, big guy.

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Harry Callahan
February 24th, 2011
4:06 pm

Doggone is a she. Just sayin’.

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Besides, Jay still owes me for our bet on whether or not Clinton ever ran a budget surplus. Sure wish I had saved the emials from that exchange between Jay and I. It was pre-Nov2008, Jay had posted another column slamming George W. Bush for running huge deficits, and Jay was telling me how he sure trusted Democrats more with our money and fiscal responsibility than Republcans.

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Just got in from the range today, so this is quite an interesting topic to come across. While I agree with the right to bear arms, I question the sanity of bringing them into the classroom. For example, the officers that were at the range today were all excellent shooters. When we ran training exercises that upped the stress levels quite a bit, the shooting was not quite as good as the static shooting. If an untrained student is armed in an active shooter incident, there’s no guarantee that he would even pull his gun to attempt to stop the threat. If he does pull the gun, stress might have him assist in upping the body count instead of taking out the threat. It’s far too complicated to just say that since someone has a gun, they can stop somebody shooting others around them. Training has far more to do with the outcome as opposed to just carrying a gun.

If someone wants to put a bill like that into law, then there should be mandatory training from certified instructors for situations like that. At least that’s my opinion.

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This is like investors getting burned on drilling oil wells in the M.E. The government keeps taking the wells over and over again after the private companies drill them. Eventually, people learn, and stop offering their services….

Maybe the government should just nationalize all the banks and stop the charade. Then Obama can just hand out cash exactly how he pleases.

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I think you have a point….. but too much pointless banter of your wrong, no your wrong, kinda makes me get bitter feelings.

Sorry you feel that way thomas.I find it comical most of the time.

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Harry Callahan

Harry, if you paid the max of 6.2% into social security on earnings of $106,800 per year for 27 years, you would have reached that estimate of $180,000 paid into social security in total. So, you went to work at 21 making at least $106,800 annually and you have made at least that much every year for 27 years. That’s very impressive, Harry. Good for you. You should insist on getting your social security when you get older.

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“The notion that an armed civilian on the scene in Arizona …………………… would have been able to intervene before Loughner got off 30 rounds is extremely realistic to the point of romanticism.

The notion that an armed police officer patroling the campus in Arizona would have been able to intervene before Loughner got off 30 rounds is extremely unrealistic to the point of romaticism.

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Obama: Destroyer Restorer of Capitalism and Wealth

Poor jm. He gets everything right but nothing correct.

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Southern Comfort (aka The Man)

February 24th, 2011
4:09 pm

I was wondering where you were. AMEN to your post!

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“Harry, if you paid the max of 6.2% into social security on earnings of $106,800 per year for 27 years, you would have reached that estimate of $180,000 paid into social security in total. So, you went to work at 21 making at least $106,800 annually and you have made at least that much every year for 27 years. That’s very impressive, Harry. Good for you. You should insist on getting your social security when you get older.”

My bad. I estimated $50,000 average annual income over 30 years, at 12% (my contribution plus employer match) so that’s where I got $180K. It was therefore redundant to say my employer put in another $180K. All the rest of it is true…I could earn about 5 times more investing on my own.

I am glad you returned to the blog though, just in time to answer my question above…so you’re opposed to government-enforced transfer of wealth?

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The Price is Right
February 24th, 2011
4:18 pm

Obama: Restorer of Anti-Capitalism and Redistribution of Wealth

No need to thank me for the correction.

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Real Scooter

Not only do I work hard, but I believe in training hard too!! I don’t look at owning/carrying a gun in the same manner as owning/carrying other things. We have the right to do it, but when we exercise that right, we should always strive to do it responsibly.

I would LOVE to see a comparison of the money the NRA gives to the GOP versus the money unions give to the Democrats. A financial landslide for the left.

Wouldn’t be a fair comparison to just compare them one on one. There’s only one NRA, while there are numerous unions. A fairer comparison would be to compare the per capita donations based on either membership totals or candidates funded.

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If I stopped working right now, at 7% annual return, my $180K would grow to $412,000 by the time I reach age 65, in 17 years. And that assumes no interest earned on the $180K my employer and I have invested over the last 30 years.

Quick question for you, Price is Right…would you rather have $412,000, or a $1,500 monthly check from the government?

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“HARRY, now you’ve done it. So…. realizing that Doggone is a woman makes you say “That explains a lot.”

You’d better explain a lot, Harry, or it’s in the doghouse for you. Being a MCP is strictly against rules here. I just said so. So humbly beg forgiveness before I stick another pin in my voodoo doll named Harry.”

Liberals tend to be either female, or effeminate men.

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That was intended as a joke, by the way

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Obama the liar.

Caught between their boss’ anti-lobbyist rhetoric and the reality of governing, President Barack Obama’s aides often steer meetings with lobbyists to a complex just off the White House grounds — and several of the lobbyists involved say they believe the choice of venue is no accident.

It allows the Obama administration to keep these lobbyist meetings shielded from public view — and out of Secret Service logs kept on visitors to the White House and later released to the public.

Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0211/50081.html#ixzz1Euk5KCTo

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Leg Lamp

The money unions give to the democrats is not used to bribe politicans to enact laws that continue to flood our country with guns. NRA money is blood money, plain and simple.

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Jay:

I get so tired of this ………. but, I will not look the other way ……… never !

Jay @ 3:57

EXHIBIT A : “In 2009, according to the FBI, there were 9,146 murders using a firearm.

The same year, there were 215 justifiable homicides by civilians using firearms.”

JAY !!!

1) How many justifiable woundings by civilians using firearms?
2) How many justifiable shots fired but missed (and the bad guy fled) by civilians using firearms?
3) How many justifiable pointing of a weapon (and the bad guy fled) by civilians using firearms?
4) How many justifiable showing of a weapon (and the bad guy fled) by civilians using firearms?
5) How many bad guys changed their mind because they “thought” a civilian might use a firearm?

You have lost all credibility on your above statement when you do not include the above.

Now I know these statistics are not kept but you at least could copy my list and use it next time.

EXHIBIT B: “I don’t propose to ban firearms. I don’t want to abolish pistols.”

Good because the SCOTUS has already ruled on that.

EXHIBIT C: “I do think reasonable gun laws can reduce the carnage”

There are more than enough on the books. The problem is enforcement and the judicial system.

EXHIBIT D: “continuing a ban on firearms on college campuses is one of those laws.”

Disagree as noted in my previous posts.

EXHIBIT E: “More guns would make college campuses safer.”

I think you misspoke on that statement.

EXHIBIT H: “As Cowrie pointed out in his testimony, when he entered the Florida state capitol that morning, he got searched. Why was that, if guns make things safer?”

Because criminals carrying guns into the state capitol make it less safe.

If every student, teacher, visitor and employee at a university had to do the same thing (searched or magnetometer) there would be no need for this thread.

Since that is impossible …………. the debate continues.

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I could earn about 5 times more investing on my own.

You could also earn less or even lose everything and if you lost everything, you could be grateful for social security. That word, could, has some magical qualities about it.

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carlosgvv
February 24th, 2011
4:30 pm

So the unions don’t fund (aka bribe) politicians?
………………..
…………………
……………………
……………………..

BAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!

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aH SoCo,

Always a sensible thought. But remember that old line: Fist, they took’.em away from the universities and nobody objected. Then they took ‘em away from the AIRPORTS, and nobody objected. Then everyone was afraid to fly!. (There must be a moral somewhee in that story…)

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The Price is Right
February 24th, 2011
4:34 pm

Obama “could” lose the next election.

Obamacare “could” be overturned.

Democrats “could” try to do what’s best for the country.

Hey, you’re right. The word “could” DOES have some magical qualities about it.

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Quick question for you, Price is Right…would you rather have $412,000, or a $1,500 monthly check from the government?

Quick answer. Neither.

My monthly pension check is bigger than that and my investment accounts are bigger than that. I’m just waiting until I’m old enough to draw my social security check and even it will be bigger than that monthly amount. Dude. Think bigger.

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Jay, from no less than Joe Klein

But there are some very good reasons governors of both parties are trying to limit the power of public employees’ unions. “I’ve spent years pleading for modest concessions from the unions,” says Bob Ziegelbauer, a Wisconsin state representative and the chief executive of Manitowoc County. “The reaction is, ‘You can’t make me.” Ziegelbauer used to be a Democrat and now calls himself an independent, but he caucuses with the state Republicans. He says when he was able to negotiate a settlement with local union representatives, their leaders often would veto it. “There’s a ruthlessness in attitude at the union headquarters. The leaders would rather take layoffs than make concessions.” Sometimes the union intransigence is downright ridiculous. “We spend $650,000 a year to keep our county juvenile-detention facility open. In recent years, we’ve had as few as one or two juveniles incarcerated there at a time,” Ziegelbauer tells me. “I wanted to close down the place and use the facility in a neighboring county. But the union blocked it on the grounds that it was outside contracting.”

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2053510,00.html#ixzz1Eump2bOq

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Leg Lamp,

You ARE a dreamer. There’s nothing wrong with that though. Carry on.

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You have no idea how wrong you are….

I have a real good idea how wrong you are.

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Harry, (back a ways) in the doghouse…

You step from one mess into another!! I guess we will have to take your Bookman Big Boy Top Gun ring away from you even though you sent in the correct number of cereal coupons. Sorry, fellow. Life is tough!.

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Southern Comfort (aka The Man)
February 24th, 2011
4:41 pm

Yes, the term “union” covers a broad spectrum. But if you’re trying to convince us that ALL unions do not engage in politics, then you’ve lost your argument right out of the block.

By the way, I was union member in college at a grocery story (was STRONGLY encouraged by the store’s ranking union member), and my dad was a shop steward at a manufacturing plant. Not criticizing everything union. However, the glorified talk of how noble all unions are just doesn’t set well on my stomach.

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BADA BING,…”.the knife has to be sewn in….”

Did you take Home Ec in high school, Bada? I bet you sew a mean stitch.

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Dusty

There’s a time and place to carry firearms. If anyone feels that they need a gun to go take a dump, then their issues go far and beyond personal safety in my honest opinion. I think some public places, such as airports, should be off limits for concealed carry. My opinion is to leave those places like that to professional, trained armed police/security. When gunshots start popping off, stress levels go way up. I don’t want to be standing anywhere near a person who’s trying to play hero without training to return fire under stress. I have seen videos (Scout probably has too) where even trained officers have frozen up or done something else wrong and ended up being a victim. I would hope and suggest that anyone who chooses to carry concealed at least take some training classes to deal with action/reaction and refresh those skills on a regular basis.

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TnGelding
February 24th, 2011
4:50 pm

But if you shoot a cop with a camera while he/she is making an arrest, you could be hauled to court, fined and/or jailed.

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I’ll be glad when your testosterone level bottoms out, Josef!

Give the little ones a hug from us!

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“The NRA has way too much influence for an organization of a million.”

Numbers never trump principle, Gelding. Doesn’t matter of you’re a force of one when you have the Constitution behind you.

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The teachers, especially, became a reactionary force when it came to school reform — opposing charter schools (in Detroit, the union blocked a $125 million private contribution to build five new charter schools) and merit pay; they lashed themselves to strict seniority rules more appropriate to assembly-line workers than would-be professionals. New York City Mayor Michael Bloomberg has been trying to negotiate a deal whereby layoffs, if necessary, would not be made on a last-hired, first-fired basis. “So you’d rather have them lay off the more experienced teachers?” a Wisconsin teacher asked me. No: teachers should be hired and fired and paid according to their ability. “But who judges that?” the teacher asked. Their employers do, I replied. The teacher scoffed; the idea that school principals should be able to decide who should be part of their workforce seems incomprehensible to most teachers — and yet that sort of accountability is at the heart of any system that aspires to excellence.

Read more: http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,2053510,00.html#ixzz1EuqQGGNX

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Dusty….Real Men didn’t take Home Ec, we took Woodshop and Metal Shop. You must be thinking of San Francisco High Schools.

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West Texas sounds nice….. so does Montana, Wyoming, or just about any civilized foreign country.

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Dusty

Can’t. Gelding is worried about my testosterone level…hmmmm….

Seriously, though, it always tickles me whenever somebody comes in on that effeminate thing…I’ll tangle with six marines on a drunken spree before one mad drag queen on a tear…

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BADA BING
February 24th, 2011
4:57 pm

No, no, no, not San Francisco High Schools. He’s a southern boy. Key West maybe.

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jm

To try to lump all those financial woes on unions is political dishonesty. The final legislation is not voted on by the unions. All the politicians have to do is say NO. Instead, we allow a governing culture that reveres money more than actually governing. It doesn’t matter if it’s unions contributing to Democratic legislators for things that favor them or corporates donating money to Republican legislators for things that favor them. If you truly want to reform government and reign in budget issues, remove the source or ignition point for all the crappy legislation, which is campaign funds…..

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jonix 5:04 – me too.

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Scout Zero…You may want to check out this video of the President of the NRA. It also confirms that I am correct. No one is coming for your guns and SCOTUS says they can be regulated (but not banned for home protection).

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“remove the source or ignition point for all the crappy legislation, which is campaign funds…..”

ergo – union busting.

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I wonder if any cadets/middies can carry loaded guns on military academy campuses? I suspect not.

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Keep Up the Good Fight!:

“Scout Zero @ 4….when are you going to learn to tell the truth and not post your phobias, delusions and distortions get the best of you.”

You know where I grew up, I would tell you to your face that you had a “mouth” and if you “felt froggie to jump”. And then let the games begin …………………

I’m really getting a little weary of your personal attacks.

Can’t you find it in yourself to just debate or is that an impossibility?

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And I’m under 40. By the time I’m 65, I’ll have 320 years worth of savings at the max SS payout rate, even if I never save another dime.

Go learn the difference between reality and wishful thinking. And learn some math while you’re at it.

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josef….really? They wouldn’t let boys take it, even if they wanted to. At least in my High School.

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