In Florida, chilling testimony against guns on campus

From The St. Petersburg Times:

Sen. Greg Evers this morning postponed discussion of a controversial gun bill (SB 234) that, among other things, would allow people to carry weapons onto college campuses after the father of a killed Florida State University student showed up to oppose the bill at a Senate committee hearing.

Ashley Cowie, a 20-year-old sophomore studying interior design, was killed January 9, 2011 at a fraternity party when another student accidentally discharged a rifle, according to police. Dr. Robert Cowie described the incident during emotional testimony, telling the Senate Criminal Justice Committee that a bullet from an AK-74 went through his daughter’s chest and struck a second student. He held back tears as he said how Ashley’s identical twin sister Amy tried to perform CPR at the party to keep her alive. Amy was “looking at the whole in her sister’s chest with blood gushing from her mouth and she knew she was already dead,” Cowie said. “But she felt compelled to do something.”

Alcohol was found in the system of the shooter, 20-year-old Evan Wilhelm, police said.

“Allowing guns in an atmosphere of college parties puts everyone involved at increased and undue risk,” Cowie told senators. “Would you feel more or less at risk today if I were carrying a gun?”

Guns on college campuses — where combinations of young people, drugs and alcohol are common — are a bad idea. As Dr. Cowie notes:

“Allowing guns in an atmosphere of college parties puts everyone involved at increased and undue risk. Each young man in that fraternity that knew that weapons were present and had been brandished in the past will have to live with the guilt that they could have prevented this tragedy.”

Cowie’s testimony succeeded in delaying, but probably not preventing, passage of the bill. However, if you want evidence of the overwhelming power of the National Rifle Association, it’s hard to beat this one, also out of Florida:

“A controversial gun bill, strongly backed by the National Rifle Association and strongly opposed by doctors, passed through the Senate Criminal Justice Committee Tuesday morning.

SB 432 would not allow doctors to ask patients whether they own a gun. An offending doctor would be charged $10,000 for the first offense, at least $25,000 for the second offense, and a minimum of $100,000 for the third offense. Psychologists and psychiatrists dealing with emergency psychotic episodes would be exempt.

The bill, sponsored by Sen. Greg Evers, R-Baker, passed 4-1. Sen. Paula Dockery, R-Lakeland was absent, but Sen. Andy Gardiner, R-Orlando voted as an ex-officio member. Sen. Gwen Margolis, D-Sunny Isles cast the lone dissenting vote.

Doctors turned out in force to oppose the measure, saying it hampers their ability to evaluate patient safety…

But Marian Hammer, a National Rifle Association lobbyist and former national president, said doctors are pushing an anti-gun agenda on their patients and intruding on their Second Amendment rights.

“A growing political agenda is being carried out in examination rooms,” Hammer said. “It has become about the politics of some medical doctors, and it has to stop.”

Doctors can’t even ask about gun ownership? A $10,000 fine for simply daring to raise the question?

Really now.

– Jay Bookman

774 comments Add your comment

Real Scooter

February 24th, 2011
11:57 am

Real Scooter

February 24th, 2011
11:57 am

Real Scooter

February 24th, 2011
12:04 pm

Why do doctors need to know if someone owns a gun? Just curious….

godless heathen

February 24th, 2011
12:12 pm

What the story of the accidental discharge shooting by drunken frat boys has to do with legal concealed carry on campus escapes me.

kitty

February 24th, 2011
12:13 pm

Scooter, if they suspect the patient is depressed or psychotic, it can make a difference whether the patient lives or dies.

kitty

February 24th, 2011
12:13 pm

godless heathen, you don’t think more guns on campus would not cause more of this sort of thing?

PJ

February 24th, 2011
12:16 pm

I don’t know why they need to know but I do know that this law is one of the dumbest things I’ve ever heard of. What is the fine for asking do you wear cotton or synthetic under garments? Now that’s an invasion of privacy.

Doggone/GA

February 24th, 2011
12:17 pm

“Why do doctors need to know if someone owns a gun? Just curious”

Check around on suicides and how many of them use guns

getalife

February 24th, 2011
12:18 pm

Doctors save lives by asking but they ask all the cons because of their mental disorder called conservatism.

The cons are tired of being asked.

usually lurking

February 24th, 2011
12:18 pm

Why does the Florida senate want to get involved in the private relationship between a doctor and a patient? Seriously?

Doggone/GA

February 24th, 2011
12:19 pm

“godless heathen, you don’t think more guns on campus would not cause more of this sort of thing?”

I wouldn’t say more guns would CAUSE it, but more guns would make it more likely to happen.

Normal

February 24th, 2011
12:19 pm

Will HOPE pay for the gun?

Bosch

February 24th, 2011
12:20 pm

Anybody who thinks college kids should be allowed to carry guns is obviously too stupid to breathe.

Joe The Plumber Too

February 24th, 2011
12:20 pm

Kitty, what would be the next step after the question was` asked? Automatic 72 hour evaluation against the patients will or government searches of private homes? Just wondering.

Real Scooter

February 24th, 2011
12:21 pm

kitty

February 24th, 2011
12:13 pm

I understand that kitty. But Jay’s article says psycho docs are ex
empt from the laws.

Normal

February 24th, 2011
12:22 pm

If they think that if a student had a gun when the Virginia shooting happened, all I can say is that you rarely ever beat a person who is already shooting to the draw.

Normal

February 24th, 2011
12:25 pm

Just think how sad it will be to carry a gun to class all four years and never get to shoot anyone…

USMC dawg

February 24th, 2011
12:25 pm

Hope means “I don’t have a plan”.

Also in the news:
Don’t let the news out of the Middle East fool you:
“It’s really Big Bad George Bush and his evil Oil Buddies making more profits at it again.”
http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/24/markets/oil/index.htm?cnn=yes&hpt=T2

http://money.cnn.com/2011/02/24/markets/oil/index.htm?cnn=yes&hpt=T2

godless heathen

February 24th, 2011
12:25 pm

I’m saying that drunken frat boys that take out AK-47s at parties and start fooling around with them are not the type of individuals that go to the trouble to get a concealed weapon permit.

I doubt the fraternity party was even on campus.

Bill Orvis White

February 24th, 2011
12:26 pm

I’m sorry for the beautiful victim in this case. As a caring American, this very, very deeply bothers me. This innocent human tragically left this earth much, much, much too soon.

With that said, I’m on the same said with @Real Scooter: Why does a doctor have to know about firearms in a household? It just doesn’t make any common sense to me.

Many liberal seculars on this board argue that college-age kids are old enough to engage in the drink, sexual debauchery and go to war. OK, then why can’t they own firearms, Jay? Yes, this incident was unfortunate, but these young adults needed to be responsible for their firearms. THIS IS CALLED PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. Prosecute these immature brats to the fullest extent of the law and use them as an example to others.

Amen,
Bill

Real Scooter

February 24th, 2011
12:27 pm

Check around on suicides and how many of them use guns

I don’t understand what that has to do with the issue Doggone. What is a doctor supposed to do if his patient owns a gun? Call the BATFE?

John Hardin

February 24th, 2011
12:27 pm

That shooting is totally irrelevant to SB234. A 20-year old cannot obtain a concealed carry permit in Florida, and a rifle cannot be carried concealed and would not be carried on campus by a CCW holder for self defense.

Further, drunken fratboy types don’t have the self-discipline needed to obtain a CCW permit, they don’t want to spend either the time or the money it requires.

Florida statistics show that CCW holders are more responsible than the general population. Why would that change on a campus?

Dr. Cowie’s loss is tragic, but it should not be used to judge the value of SB234. It would be like pointing to a fatal accident by students in an illegal street race as a reason students shouldn’t be allowed to park on campus.

kimmer

February 24th, 2011
12:28 pm

I am a staunch believer in the right to keep and bear arms but I must confess a bit of confusion over the opposition for a physician asking a question since the patient can easily lie or just refuse to answer. Or a person may truthfully answer no and then go get a Glock 5 minutes after leaving the office. Plus, what can they legally do if the person says yes? Call the law? I don’t think they can intervene unless there is probable cause that the law has been violated. If the person is deemed suicidal the physician might be able to counsel them to get rid of it or alert a care-giver to the risk.

0311/0317 - 1811/1801

February 24th, 2011
12:31 pm

“Allowing guns in an atmosphere of college parties puts everyone involved at increased and undue risk,” Cowie told senators

1) What about cars? What are the stats on students killed in that manner or falling off dorm balconies while drunk?

2) I am assuming the frat party was on campus. Therefore, what was the rifle doing there. It’s against the law!

Did it stop him? No
Would it stop a criminal? No
Would it stop a mentally disturbed “active shooter on campus”? No
Would it stop a terrorist cell on campus? No

3) Guns on campus is not some kind of horrid disease. They’re already there.

Law enforcement
Anyone who wants to break the law.

4) All students should not have the right to carry on campus. That would be absurd and no one is saying that anywhere. For one thing, state law prohibits it for those under 21.

So who “should” have the right to carry on campus:

All of the below must be over 21 with a valid permit if required (Vermont requires nothing).

Off Duty law enforcement officers
Former law enforcement officers
Former military personnel
R.O.T.C. personnel
Students 21 years of age

5) How many people can an active shooter on campus kill in 20 seconds (supposing the campus police were that close instead of 5 minutes away).

Answer: As many as he can find.

Just one person with a weapon can make a difference and the perpetrator doesn’t even have to be shot or even shot at. Many of them “cower out” and commit suicide when they feel it’s over. Seeing an armed person may cause him to seek cover.

ANYTHING that will save just one life ………… that family will be grateful.

godless heathen

February 24th, 2011
12:32 pm

“Anybody who thinks college kids should be allowed to carry guns is obviously too stupid to breathe.”

The law says they can carry them elsewhere if they are over 18 and have a permit . Maybe a student has a night job at an off-campus convenience store and lives in the dorm. He wants to have CW for when he walks back to his domicile at 2AM.

Bosch

February 24th, 2011
12:33 pm

““A growing political agenda is being carried out in examination rooms,” Hammer said”

With that I agree — but remember, what’s good for the goose, is good for the gander.

Joe The Plumber Too

February 24th, 2011
12:33 pm

Oh boschy, yes some people are too stupid to breathe but we accept you anyway. My daughter carries a firearm that is registered, she has obtained her concealed carry permit and is quite accurate with her skills and……….. wait for it……….. she is a senior in college. Oh no run chicken little, the sky is falling.

Bosch

February 24th, 2011
12:33 pm

godless,

Maybe, maybe, maybe, whatever — guns do not belong on college campuses. Period.

Doggone/GA

February 24th, 2011
12:35 pm

“What is a doctor supposed to do if his patient owns a gun? Call the BATFE?”

I dont know what BATFE even is, but if a doctor is dealing with a patient they think might be suicidal, it can temper the advice and treatment they reccommend based on how imminent is the possible danger to that patient.

If you think a patient might be suicidal it’s not outside the bounds of your doctor/patient relationship to advise family members to get those guns out of reach.

Normal

February 24th, 2011
12:36 pm

Trouble is all you concealed gun people always assume you are going to be faster than the other guy…maybe not. ;)

Capitol Avenue Cal

February 24th, 2011
12:36 pm

I have no problems at all with gun regulation. If a person is too young to drink a beer, he is certainly too young to own a gun. After college, however (or, after attaining the age of 21), all bets are off on this. Freedom is freeedom, and its hard to regulate that.

Bosch

February 24th, 2011
12:37 pm

Normal,

Or that life is like the TV shows, and they aren’t.

godless heathen

February 24th, 2011
12:37 pm

Bosch – “Maybe, maybe, maybe, whatever — guns do not belong on college campuses. Period.”

Got news for you – they are already there.

Normal

February 24th, 2011
12:38 pm

Godless,
At the college My Grand daughter went to, you could call a campus cop to escort you back to your dorm

Bosch

February 24th, 2011
12:38 pm

godless heathen,

And? That is not news to me.

Joe The Plumber Too

February 24th, 2011
12:38 pm

Normal, It’s not about thinking you are faster than the other guy but having a chance beats………………

Normal

February 24th, 2011
12:40 pm

It’s all just peepee envy…

Normal

February 24th, 2011
12:42 pm

Joe,
If I’m already shooting people and I see you reach inside your coat, your having that gun will only give me another one after I shoot you in the head…

Larry

February 24th, 2011
12:42 pm

And the point is? She got shot and it’s relationship to the law is what? This is typical left wing fearmongering. Oh, I’m sorry, only the right employs that tactic, here it is dissemination of useless unrelated facts to promote a distorted viewpoint. Have a nice day!

Jefferson

February 24th, 2011
12:43 pm

I hope these gun toten’ fraidy cats buy insurance too, maybe they can get some sleep.

kitty

February 24th, 2011
12:43 pm

“godless heathen, you don’t think more guns on campus would not cause more of this sort of thing?”

I wouldn’t say more guns would CAUSE it, but more guns would make it more likely to happen.

THanks, doggone. Poor choice of wording.

kitty

February 24th, 2011
12:44 pm

Scooter, it may be the GP that recognizes the danger of the depression before it ever gets to a psychiatrist. the GP may then refer them to a psychiatrist. See my point.

0311/0317 - 1811/1801

February 24th, 2011
12:44 pm

Normal:

See the next to last paragraph in my 12:31

0311/0317 - 1811/1801

February 24th, 2011
12:45 pm

Bosch:

What are your thoughts on my 12:31?

Anyone else ?

Joe The Plumber Too

February 24th, 2011
12:45 pm

Normal, that may be the dumbest comment I’ve ever heard.

kitty

February 24th, 2011
12:45 pm

Joe Plumber,

In Georgia, it is not difficult to get someone involuntarily committed. I know someone who got committed when she was in the ER for another issue and said she “was so mad, she could kill herself.” They were worried that she was suicidal.

Real Scooter

February 24th, 2011
12:47 pm

Doggone/GA

February 24th, 2011
12:35 pm

As josef would say,Google is your friend. BAFTE

buck@gon

February 24th, 2011
12:48 pm

Using “chilling testimony” to decry restrictions on what doctors–doctors whom the federal government seems to want to make into shackled federal employees–can ask their patients about a scenario that is none of their business?

Makes sense to me.

I agree that guns in frat houses are generally a bad idea, but the way that your tortured logic has tied these two disjointed events with gauze, duct tape and ball bearings is just a bit unseemly.

0311/0317 - 1811/1801

February 24th, 2011
12:49 pm

http://www.justfacts.com/guncontrol.asp (Great Website)

* In 2007, there were 613 fatal firearm accidents in the United States, constituting 0.5% of 123,706 fatal accidents that year.[120]

A 1982 survey of male felons in 11 state prisons dispersed across the U.S. found:[21]

• 34% had been “scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim”

• 40% had decided not to commit a crime because they “knew or believed that the victim was carrying a gun”

• 69% personally knew other criminals who had been “scared off, shot at, wounded, or captured by an armed victim”[22]

* Based on survey data from a 2000 study published in the Journal of Quantitative Criminology,[17] U.S. civilians use guns to defend themselves and others from crime at least 989,883 times per year.[18]

* Since the outset of the Chicago handgun ban, the percentage of Chicago murders committed with handguns has averaged about 40% higher than it was before the law took effect.[55]

More Gun Control, More Crime
by Miguel A. Faria, Jr., M.D.

0311/0317 - 1811/1801

February 24th, 2011
12:51 pm

December 30, 2010

“The Gun Is Civilization” by Maj. L. Caudill USMC (Ret)

“Human beings only have two ways to deal with one another: reason and force.
If you want me to do something for you, you have a choice of either convincing me via argument, or force me to do your bidding under threat of force.
Every human interaction falls into one of those two categories, without exception. Reason or force, that’s it.

In a truly moral and civilized society, people exclusively interact through persuasion.
Force has no place as a valid method of social interaction, and the only thing that removes force from the menu is the personal firearm, as paradoxical as it may sound to some.

When I carry a gun, you cannot deal with me by force.
You have to use reason and try to persuade me, because I have a way to negate your threat or employment of force.

The gun is the only personal weapon that puts a 100-pound woman on equal footing with a 220-pound mugger, a 75-year old retiree on equal footing with a 19-year old gang banger, and a single guy on equal footing with a carload of drunk guys with baseball bats. The gun removes the disparity in physical strength, size, or numbers between a potential attacker and a defender.

There are plenty of people who consider the gun as the source of bad force equations.
These are the people who think that we’d be more civilized if all guns were removed from society, because a firearm makes it easier for a [armed] mugger to do his job.
That, of course, is only true if the mugger’s potential victims are mostly disarmed either by choice or by legislative fiat–it has no validity when most of a mugger’s potential marks are armed.

People who argue for the banning of arms ask for automatic rule by the young, the strong, and the many, and that’s the exact opposite of a civilized society. A mugger, even an armed one, can only make a successful living in a society where the state has granted him a force monopoly.

Then there’s the argument that the gun makes confrontations lethal that otherwise would only result in injury.
This argument is fallacious in several ways. Without guns involved, confrontations are won by the physically superior party inflicting overwhelming injury on the loser.

People who think that fists, bats, sticks, or stones don’t constitute lethal force watch too much TV, where people take beatings and come out of it with a bloody lip at worst.
The fact that the gun makes lethal force easier works solely in favor of the weaker defender, not the stronger attacker. If both are armed, the field is level.

The gun is the only weapon that’s as lethal in the hands of an octogenarian as it is in the hands of a weight lifter.
It simply wouldn’t work as well as a force equalizer if it wasn’t both lethal and easily employable.

When I carry a gun, I don’t do so because I am looking for a fight, but because I’m looking to be left alone.
The gun at my side means that I cannot be forced, only persuaded. I don’t carry it because I’m afraid, but because it enables me to be unafraid. It doesn’t limit the actions of those who would interact with me through reason, only the actions of those who would do so by force.
It removes force from the equation… and that’s why carrying a gun is a civilized act.”

http://www.athenstalks.com/node/89030

godless heathen

February 24th, 2011
12:51 pm

Now if the opponents to the law put up a parent whose child had been killed by a law abiding citizen, carrying a concealed weapon on campus with a permit, that would have been relevant to the debate. I wonder why they didn’t.

AmVet

February 24th, 2011
12:54 pm

You can pretty much take this to the bank.

When it comes to gun legislation, if the cops and safety officers are against it, the neo-cons are for it. And vice versa.

It’s that simple.

The GOP has become the Anti-Law & Order Party…

Real Scooter

February 24th, 2011
12:55 pm

kitty

February 24th, 2011
12:44 pm

Yes kitty,I see your point. I try to approach all issues with an open mind.But,I see this issue as being like a doc asking a persons legal status. Or is that apple and oranges?????

Joe The Plumber Too

February 24th, 2011
12:55 pm

Kitty, that leads me to the conclusion that many would lie to the doctor either way, if they were attention seekers they may say they have one when they don’t or if they were serious, they could say they don’t have one when they do. The only thing that seems certain would be even more distrust in doctors than alot of people have now.

0311/0317 - 1811/1801

February 24th, 2011
12:56 pm

Jay:

Are you out there ?

Any comments on my 12:31 ?

AmVet

February 24th, 2011
12:58 pm

For all you right-wing veteran haters:

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CLICK HERE TO VIEW THE VIDEO AND SIGN THE PETITION

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Additionally, many public employees have, for years, provided quality services to the veterans’ community. In Wisconsin, for example, there are nearly half a million veterans. Public employees help run veterans’ homes, drive disabled veterans to their VA center for treatment, and help homeless veterans at transitional housing programs. They’ve done an extraordinary job, under tough circumstances. Yet, governors in a number of states want to punish these employees, rather than reward them for their dedication to helping veterans. It is also for them that we’re standing up.

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We need to make clear, right now, to governors who want to try to punish public employees – many of them United States Veterans – that we will not stand for it. We will not stand for taking away the right that veterans, and those who serve them, have to negotiate fair pay for fair work. Only by being vocal can you make a difference. So, please, click on the link above, and share with your friends and family.

Thank you for your support.

Sincerely,
Ashwin Madia
Iraq War Veteran
Interim Chairman, VoteVets.org

stands for decibels

February 24th, 2011
12:59 pm

Marian Hammer, a National Rifle Association lobbyist and former national president, said doctors are pushing an anti-gun agenda on their patients and intruding on their Second Amendment rights.

seriously, the NRA has, what, 4 million members? a teeny bit more than what a Fox News blowhard draws on a good night?

why do we feel any compelling need to give a flying [bleep] what some bombastic organization, representing barely one percent of the population, might think? Can someone seriously answer that?

Rafe Hollister

February 24th, 2011
1:01 pm

Let’s see, we have had so much success with stopping underage possession of alcohol and drug useage on campus, we ought to expand our efforts to include firearms.

I is terrible that this tragic senseless accident happened, but the fact it was attended by college kids or maybe on a college campus is a specious factoid. Kids are killed everyday with firearms in College Park and at highschool parties, meetups, drug exchanges, etc. Usually with illegally obtained firearms and by non licensed firearm users.

So, if we can get them through the high school years alive, we can insure their safety when they get to college. Right!

Real Scooter

February 24th, 2011
1:02 pm

0311/0317 – 1811/1801

February 24th, 2011
12:56 pm

I agree with your 12:31!

Del

February 24th, 2011
1:02 pm

Normal@12:36 “Trouble is all of you concealed gun people always assume you are going to be faster than the other guy.” When you say “all” aren’t you making an assumption that’s only an assumed guess. Obviously, you don’t really know what all who carry a weapon might think or do in any given situation, right?

Rafe Hollister

February 24th, 2011
1:03 pm

Stands for Decibels

To take your argument one step forward, why do we care what Unions think, as Union members are a very small minority of workers in America.

Keep up the good fight!

February 24th, 2011
1:05 pm

PJ

February 24th, 2011
1:05 pm

Just heard on the radio breaking news of a deadly shooting at a business on Donald Lee Highway. Chalk up another shooting to the NRA and the 2nd Amendment. We really should be keeping score except how do you separate the bad guys from the good?

Keep up the good fight!

February 24th, 2011
1:06 pm

Arming students and teachers would not save lives in the rare instances where mass shootings occur on campus. Even trained police officers, on average, hit their intended targets less than 20% of the time

From Bradycampaign.org

Real Scooter

February 24th, 2011
1:07 pm

stands for decibels

February 24th, 2011
12:59 pm

I really can’t answer your question DB. But I can say that that bombastic organization is defending one of your constitutional rights.

AmVet

February 24th, 2011
1:07 pm

There is a very strong argument that the NRA is not remotely concerned with public safety.

Every cop in the land was OBVIOUSLY against cop-killer bullets and enormously powerful automatic weapons.And many other pieces of deadly, misguided cop-out (get it?) legislation.

The NRA boobs were for them. Each and every one.

They simply pander to their base, which is a small special interest group with VERY large mouths…

kitty

February 24th, 2011
1:07 pm

Scooter, doctor patient discussions are confidential so no it isn’t about legal status. But what if the patient that the dr was concerned about said yes, he had a gun. Maybe he would say something else that could help the doctor keep him from suicide. I don’t see what the big deal is if the dr asks this.

Joe, if they lie they may just end up in the psych ward involuntarily. IF they want to be drama queens, that will teach them. Of course, they could lie. But if the doctor can save a life from this what is the problem?

Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)

February 24th, 2011
1:08 pm

Well, I bet if this bill passes the number of colledge flunk-outs in FL will fall thru the basement floor. Everybody will get passing grades and the colledge drop-out problem will be solved once and for all.

The reason is because those pointy-headed colledge teachers will think twice before flunking students. They never can tell if a student is supported by Smith & Wesson and will whip it out and do a little tattoo on the teacher’s head and chest.

Seems to me we could use this kind of law in GA. I bet nobody would ever loose a Hope Scholarship because of low grades if we had that kind of law.

Have a good p.m. everybody.

md

February 24th, 2011
1:10 pm

“Anybody who thinks college kids should be allowed to carry guns is obviously too stupid to breathe.”

Those too stupid to breathe are going to do darn well as they please regardless of any laws.

If I’m not mistaken, guns were not allowed on the campuses of prior shootings………………..

Accidents happen all the time in a variety of ways…..we going to outlaw accidents next??

stands for decibels

February 24th, 2011
1:11 pm

But I can say that that bombastic organization is defending one of your constitutional rights.

how, pray tell, are they doing that by seeing to it that doctors are fined for asking their patients about guns? How are my rights being protected?

Is that going to make any difference whatsoever in the ease or difficulty in my procurement of a firearm for my own use?

Peadawg

February 24th, 2011
1:12 pm

“Anybody who thinks college kids should be allowed to carry guns is obviously too stupid to breathe.” – I second that! Amen!!

Adam

February 24th, 2011
1:12 pm

Normal: HOPE pays for the gun because as we all know if you don’t have to pay your total cost then you have more money to put towards other things, like guns. Or was it campaign contributions? Or maybe it was abortion?

godless heathen

February 24th, 2011
1:12 pm

“why do we feel any compelling need to give a flying [bleep] what some bombastic organization, representing barely one percent of the population, might think? Can someone seriously answer that?”

What percent of the population do school teachers represent? Yet every politician panders for their support.

I don’t have a statistic, but I’d be willing to bet that 90+% of the members of the NRA vote. In many districts, the percentage of NRA members is a lot higher than one percent.

Nice Guy

February 24th, 2011
1:13 pm

Bosch – “Anybody who thinks college kids should be allowed to carry guns is obviously too stupid to breathe.”

Wow.

Mick

February 24th, 2011
1:14 pm

Be proud of your state because…….florida is the flagship state of gooberstan….from top to bottom…no wonder key west seceded…

0311/0317 - 1811/1801

February 24th, 2011
1:14 pm

Scooter:

Thank you …………………..

Larry

February 24th, 2011
1:14 pm

Am Vet, I don’t agree. I’m not a gun owner/NRA type. The issue is that Jay used a red herring in his argument and Dr. Cowle’s testimony is irrelevant. How would the passage of the law change the circumstances relevant to the girls death? The answer is it wouldn’t change a thing since the gun was on campus illegally. I feel for the Dr as a father of similar aged girls and I can understand his desire to limit gun carrying but this is a Berkeley reaction. Present law is as effective as the law that says students shall not drink or smoke pot (hopefully guns are not quite as popular) so the new law would not change much behavior. Those that do, will and those that don’t, won’t. As I said the issue is Jay’s use of a red herring to stir up debate and ignore the bufoon in the WH.

Real Scooter

February 24th, 2011
1:14 pm

PJ

February 24th, 2011
1:05 pm

You really need to educate yourself on this topic PJ!

md

February 24th, 2011
1:16 pm

And for every argument against, there will be one for:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cIeyn0-rdx4

You folks can put yourself in her shoes and watch your parents get mowed down in cold blood……than get back to us.

George W

February 24th, 2011
1:17 pm

Dems….oh those evil rich and evil guns. What can we do to contain them?

George W

February 24th, 2011
1:18 pm

Hmmmm Obama is already shredding the constitution lets see what he does with the Right to bear arms.

AmVet

February 24th, 2011
1:18 pm

“The issue is that Jay used a red herring in his argument and Dr. Cowle’s testimony is irrelevant. How would the passage of the law change the circumstances relevant to the girls death?”

Larry, I don’t disagree. And i am not advocating more legislation, particularly as I do not know the existing relevant legislation.

But seriously, this statement about red herrings may be the most absurd I have *ever* seen.

As I said the issue is Jay’s use of a red herring to stir up debate and ignore the bufoon (sic) in the WH.

You denigrate the use of red herrings by doing what?

Using a red herring.

Incredible…

thomas

February 24th, 2011
1:19 pm

Does anyone know what the stats are for crime rates in cities with conceal and carry laws and those without conceal and carry?

I’m way too lazy to look up, but it would be intereating to know which one has a higher crime rate.

It seems to me criminals are going to be criminals and are going to tada break the law. So even if there is a ban on carrying firearms or concealing them the criminals will still do as they please, until stopped.

So I guess the question is does the legal ability of citizens to carry and posses firearms have an effect on the crime rate? If it has an effect in lowering the crime rate, especially violent crimes or those committed with a weapon, then would it not be a good idea for us to be armed, or atleast have the right to arm ourselves without violating the law? And if the crime rates are unchanged or higher then seems the debate should be over, except for the constitution thing of it all.

jm

February 24th, 2011
1:20 pm

i have no dog in this hunt. but it seems silly to permit weapons on college campuses. that said, given the mass shootings on campus, i can see the counter argument.

0311/0317 - 1811/1801

February 24th, 2011
1:21 pm

Keep Up the Good Fight! :

“Arming students and teachers would not save lives in the rare instances where mass shootings occur on campus. Even trained police officers, on average, hit their intended targets less than 20% of the time.”

And because the “Brady Bunch” probably wouln’t even touch a 12 guage duck gun they are showing their ignorance.

Here are the ways you can stop someone from continuing their carnage:

1) Shoot and kill them (best option)
2) Shoot and wound them
3) Shoot but miss them and they cower out and commit suicide (second best option)
4) Point the gun at them and they (not wanting to be shot) dive for cover
5) Point the gun at them and they take hostages (at least they stopped killing)
6) Let them see you have a gun (as you seek cover) and they may do 3, 4 or 5

7) And last but not least – catch them reloading, walk up and put one right in the back of their head

There are probably more ways to use a gun to stop a mass murder but the above will do for now.

do you own a gun?

February 24th, 2011
1:21 pm

because if you do, I won’t give you the pain medication which has the nasty side effect of depression.

0311/0317 - 1811/1801

February 24th, 2011
1:22 pm

md:

That video will mean nothing to them ……….. they are emotional liberals.

stands for decibels

February 24th, 2011
1:22 pm

What percent of the population do school teachers represent? Yet every politician panders for their support.

Well, you see, teachers actually perform a service of value.

Whereas, NRA members? not so much.

Real Scooter

February 24th, 2011
1:23 pm

Keep up the good fight!

February 24th, 2011
1:05 pm

Concealed Carry killers does not equate to Concealed Carry Permit holders.But you probably knew that already!

George W

February 24th, 2011
1:23 pm

0311…..AMEN!

Keep up the good fight!

February 24th, 2011
1:25 pm

Scout Zero…silly.

1. The “good guys” may shoot other “good guys” with a gun.
2. The “good guys” may shoot themselves by mistake
3. The “good guys” may be shot by police officers
4. The “good guys” may be shot by the criminal and have their gun taken away and used on other innocents.

Shall we go on? Silly points you make without facts or reason. What nonsense.

Jack

February 24th, 2011
1:25 pm

“Really now” he said. If my doc asks me if I own a gun, I’ll tell him it’s none his business and then look for another doc. This subject is getting lots more attention than it deserves.

Keep up the good fight!

February 24th, 2011
1:25 pm

Scooter…did you read my entire post?

George W

February 24th, 2011
1:26 pm

Keep up the good fight…REALLY? So I guess you are saying that our military and police officers would be better protected if they did not carry guns?

stands for decibels

February 24th, 2011
1:27 pm

If my doc asks me if I own a gun, I’ll tell him it’s none his business and then look for another doc.

and that’s swell.

Do you think the doc should be fined for asking?

godless heathen

February 24th, 2011
1:27 pm

sfd:

You asked about why, not should.

Deep Throat

February 24th, 2011
1:28 pm

When you evoke the criminals carry permit, then, then, and only then will I discuss my guns ( PLURAL, GUNS ).

Doggone/GA

February 24th, 2011
1:28 pm

“This subject is getting lots more attention than it deserves.”

No, it isn’t. When it comes to that law about doctors, it is NOT about the patient…it’s about intimidation of the DOCTOR.

Normal

February 24th, 2011
1:28 pm

0311/0317 – 1811/1801

February 24th, 2011
12:44 pm

Scout,
I hear you, but you know as well as I do, when rounds are flying, plans go out the window.
Besises that Va. tech shooter was going to go down until he ran out of bullets. He was flat crazy. You just never know how it will turn out.

Besides, most people who carry have never been in a firefight. Again, you and I know that’s a different world and it’s hard work to keep your cool. It could be you are just adding to the carnage; you know what I mean, don’t you?

Keep up the good fight!

February 24th, 2011
1:29 pm

Scout Zero…the reference to the Brady Bunch…are you referring to the Brady Center? Really is it necessary to demean with your trite silliness the name of a man injured in the line of duty serving his president and this country. Do you feel only the military deserve respect? Petty aren’t you.