In Wisconsin battle, it’s not about the budget
You still can’t find a single Democratic state senator in the entire state of Wisconsin. All 14 of them remain in self-imposed exile in Illinois, and as long as they stay there, they can continue to prevent passage of a highly controversial bill that would sharply reduce benefits for teachers and other government employees and, more importantly, gut public labor unions.
It’s that second aspect of the bill that has drawn national and even international attention. As the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel reports:
The bill would require most public workers to pay half their pension costs – typically 5.8% of pay for state workers – and in many cases at least 12% of their health care costs. Union leaders have said they are willing to accept those concessions, which total nearly $330 million through June 2013.
Under the bill, the unions could not bargain over anything but wages, would have to hold annual elections to keep their organizations intact and would lose the ability to have union dues deducted from state paychecks. Employees would no longer have to automatically pay union dues, but could choose whether they want to do so.
In other words, the unions are willing to swallow the economic demands. If givebacks are necessary to help balance the state budget in a time of crisis, the employees say they’re willing to do their part.
However, Gov. Scott Walker has refused to accept that offer and also refuses to negotiate with labor or Democrats. He doesn’t see this merely as a chance to win an important battle against organized labor; he sees it as an opportunity to win the entire war, forever, by stripping state unions of most of their power and influence. And if he succeeds, the implications for the labor movement nationwide would be profound.
At the moment, only five states prohibit collective bargaining by teachers and other public employees, as the map below demonstrates. Georgia is one of the five. (Note: The right to bargain collectively does not imply the legal right to strike in many states.)
Teachers unions in particular have long been a favorite target of conservatives, with a lot of people blaming unions for poor classroom performance. So the map above made me curious: How does the ability of teachers to form unions and bargain collectively correlate to classroom performance? If strong teachers unions truly do hamper education, the five states that ban collective bargaining by teachers ought to rank fairly high in educational performance.
Here are the numbers for the five states in question, plus Wisconsin, on the National Assessment of Educational Progress, given annually across the nation to fourth and eighth graders.
Texas, North Carolina and Virginia are roughly at the national average. Georgia and South Carolina trail in most categories. Wisconsin does very well.
Here are the state rankings for average SAT scores for the six states in question:
Wisconsin 2
Virginia 33
North Carolina 39
Texas 45
Georgia 47
South Carolina 48
The numbers above might be a little misleading, given that most Wisconsin seniors take the ACT rather than the SAT. Then again, Wisconsin ranks second on the ACT as well.
– Jay Bookman
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618 comments Add your comment
Lord Help Us
February 21st, 2011
9:35 am
Nice graph…reminds me of the one that shows that the reddest of the red states are also the biggest recipents of federal largesse…
Normal
February 21st, 2011
9:39 am
I am neither opposed or for Unions. I understand their value and laud their efforts to keep work places safe. I am at a loss to understand the Wisconsin Governor’s putting a “Union Busting” rider on a budget bill? Seems to me they should be discussed/voted separately, but I guess that’s why I’m not Governor of anything but my family…when my wife says it’s OK…
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
9:39 am
Why is collective bargaining good for my classroom?
Here are multiple examples of why collective bargaining is necessary for schools in America.
Collective bargaining is about:
- boards and associations desiring to incorporate such understandings into written collective negotiations in the belief that such action is in the best interests of the residents, the students attending school therein, and the teachers represented by the association
- a mutual covenant between two interested parties
- fair employment practices
- prohibiting discrimination on the basis of race, sex, marital status, age, weight, political activities, sexual orientation or membership in association or other employment organizations
- protecting employment standards and working conditions
- ensuring that qualified professionals are working with students
- allowing for teachers, parents, staff, and students to have a say in curriculum development
- giving teachers and school staffs grievance procedures, due process, and just cause for firing
- protecting the personal property of teachers
- allowing school employees to view and manage their personnel file, and remove any inflammatory or potentially damaging information
- giving employees a say in staff development
- encouraging professional growth and advancement
- ensuring that administrators follow the rules when evaluating staff
- giving staff a say in class-size and balance
- ensuring that staff has a role in school improvement
- setting standards of professional responsibility, obligations to students, a code of ethics, obligation to the public, and disciplinary action, if needed.
From Daily Kos
This is a GREAT video
Lord Help Us
February 21st, 2011
9:40 am
I am torn on the issue of collective bargaining for federal, state and local employees. This ability seems to have been used as a lever that is unavailable to most citizens.
The thought of taxpayer money being cycled through union dues and into PACs and special interest lobbying is tough to swallow.
lovelyliz
February 21st, 2011
9:44 am
@Lord Help Us
It has been that way for a long time. A conservative I knoiw tried to just ify those numbers by blaming the miltary bases and welfare recipienrts. As if there are no miltary basis in the rest of the country and evidently, no poor people either.
Normal
February 21st, 2011
9:45 am
Good morning Granny G!
A great post!
Did you see downstairs that I’m going to be a three time Great Grandpa come September? Like I said below…another left wing liberal born into the world. Life is good.
Keep up the good fight!
February 21st, 2011
9:45 am
As the unions have agreed to accept all financial concessions in the proposed bill and the governor still insists that the anti-union provisions for the selected unions that did not politically support him are required, it is obviously that this is not about budgets, education or taking away the right of employees to unionize….this is about Republican politics against working people and the middle class.
Interesting graph Jay…..
AmVet
February 21st, 2011
9:46 am
That Dixie does so abysmally awful in educational rankings is more than likely a cultural problem. Not an institutional one.
Though given that, and many other graphs, facts, data sets and evidence, right-wing politics sure seems to exacerbate the issue.
In the Midwest, Northern Plains, West and Northeast, education is generally highly valued at the family level. And is regarded in high esteem at the local and state level.
Here?
Hmmmm…
I think the Republicans are just enraged that there are no Conservative Arts degrees to be had! LOL…
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
9:47 am
“The thought of taxpayer money being cycled through union dues and into PACs and special interest lobbying is tough to swallow”
Once it is paid to the employee it is no longer “taxpayer money” – it is EMPLOYEE money.
Del
February 21st, 2011
9:47 am
“In other words, the unions are willing to swallow the economic demands. If givebacks are necessary to help balance the state budget in time of crises.” Jay, could you identify and quote the union leaders who indicated that the membership is willing to “swallow the economic demands”? I haven’t read any reports of such willingness. When you see what these union protesters are putting on their signs that they’re waving around I’m sure many parents in Wisconsin wouldn’t want them back in the classroom. Public labor unions have no business in the federal, state or local government. These people are paid by the taxpayers.
One Nation Under educated
February 21st, 2011
9:48 am
Why would one political group glorify willful ignorance?
What is gained by that?
How does that help our children?
Wingnuts, whats it like to just, have no shame? no remorse
cranky old man
February 21st, 2011
9:49 am
The public sector is the last bastion where unions are, more or less, immune from the traditional tactics of union busting employers: 1.) outsourcing; 2.) off-shoring; 3.) illegal labor; and 4.) moving operations to more “business-friendly” states.
1.) Although certain government functions can be outsourced to private contractors, many others cannot. And many of those functions that have been outsourced probably should not have been (prisons, “charter” schools, student loans), because the much touted efficiency and cost savings of the private sector have either failed to materialize at all or been lost to corruption.
2.) Off-shoring government functions to China or India would create obvious political problems, although I’m sure some city, state, or local government comptroller somewhere is working diligently at finding a way to slip it past the political process.
3.) As with off-shoring, hiring illegal immigrants as teachers, police officers, or DMV clerks would be politically problematic.
4.) It would be a headline worthy of The Onion if, say, California or New York, were to move all government functions to Alabama in order to take advantage of cheaper labor costs and “right-to-work” laws. That doesn’t mean it hasn’t crossed someone’s mind, of course.
What the right wingers ultimately hate about public sector unions is the bad example they set for the private sector. Public workers have so far been spared most of the indignities that have been heaped upon their private sector counterparts over the past 30 years or so, particularly at the lower rungs of the ladder. Private employers fear that some day their arsenal of union busting weapons (see above) will not be enough to fend off the demands of their lower skilled employees to be brought back to the same level as their public sector equivalents. So far, of course, it hasn’t worked out that way. Many of those private sector workers who have been most hurt by the race to the bottom over the last 30 years are loyal audience members of Rush Limaugh and Fox News. They have been worked up into a fit of indignation at the thought of having to pay higher taxes to support the “lavish” benefits of public sector workers, even as they’ve seen their own wages, pensions, and health care benefits diminish.
Georgia Boy
February 21st, 2011
9:49 am
What are you tryin’ to say, Jay. I like the pictures though. Is that something about the states that plan on seceding.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
February 21st, 2011
9:49 am
Right. In Wisconsin it’s about those racist, bigoted Tea Partiers who walk around protesting with signs calling people Hitler, Mussolini, Mubarek, and talking about how an elected official is “raping” them. And these are just a few of the mean spirited messages being conveyed by those “neo con” Tea Partiers.
Oops…..my bad. It’s left leaning “progressive” teachers and union officials spewing the hate.
kayaker 71
February 21st, 2011
9:50 am
“Unions are willing to swallow the economic demands” ……”If givebacks are necessary to balance the state budget, the unions are willing to do their part”. I keep remembering the You Tube video of Chris Christie debating the union teacher in NJ. He asked the unions for some minor concessions regarding health care premiums and self donations to their retirement plans. The answer? Not no, but hell no!! The unions blatantly refused to concede a single thing. Only when their backs were pushed to the wall were they even somewhat cooperative and understanding of the problems the states have in funding their demands. If there was not a budget crisis, they wouldn’t be having this debate. But if that’s the way they want it, perhaps the time has come for their demise.
Zedd
February 21st, 2011
9:51 am
The Dems and the unions can make some concessions now or face even harsher terms later when the state declares bankruptcy and then all their union contracts will be considered null & void. Pick your poison! It’s not so much an all out assault of unions that Jay and the liberal media would have you believe. Fire all the teachers that called in sick and forced school cancellations too!
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
February 21st, 2011
9:51 am
OT here, but priceless…..absolutely priceless.
http://latimesblogs.latimes.com/washington/2011/02/donald-rumsfeld-candy-crowley-cnn-obama-image-.html
stands for decibels
February 21st, 2011
9:51 am
Jay, remember, awhile back, when I laid into you for failing to fully back the Employee Free Choice Act? How I said, “if you give these b@sta@rds an inch, they’ll take a mile?”
Chickens, roost, etc.
/drive-by
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
9:54 am
Normal
What wonderful news!!!!
Congratulations.
My 87 year old Pop is with us for what we are calling “Grandpa’s Winter sleep away camp” and watching him with Baby G, his 13th great grandchild has been such a blessing.
Life is good.
Keep up the good fight!
February 21st, 2011
9:56 am
Public labor unions have no business in the federal, state or local government
Certaintly an opinion that not everyone holds. Interestingly, enought, the WI governor would leave in place those who politically supported him. So apparently to the WI governor some public employees are deserving of unions
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
9:59 am
Keep
And the unions that Gov Walker would allow to remain….support the protesters.
America is pretty great.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
9:59 am
“could you identify and quote the union leaders who indicated that the membership is willing to “swallow the economic demands”? ”
Mary Bell, president of the Wisconsin Education Association Council
Marty Beil, executive director of AFSCME Council 24
“said in a conference call with reporters that workers will do their fair share to narrow Wisconsin’s budget gap”
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/govt-and-politics/article_a05349be-3be1-11e0-b0a1-001cc4c002e0.html
AmVet
February 21st, 2011
9:59 am
No wonder, right wing bloggers say the stupidest things.
They parrot Ronald Dumsfeld, the most deadly, incompetent screw up at his job since Robert McNamara
That man should be waterboarded and then made to publicly apologize to the American people for being such a grade A loser.
And, more importantly, to those 5,000+ American families…
andygrdzki
February 21st, 2011
10:00 am
From the Capital Times, a report from Todd Berry. : True, this year’s deficit is the largest ever reported. But it is the fifth consecutive year that the GAAP shortfall exceeded $2 billion and the ninth that it has topped $1 billion. We have not had a recession every year since the late 1990s. This recession didn’t really get under way until early 2008.
Even more troubling than the size of the deficit is its trend. Since 1999, the shortfall has grown in every year except one: $830 million in fiscal 1999, $1.21 billion in 2000, $1.48 billion in 2001, $2.24 billion in 2002, $1.93 billion in 2004, $2.12 billion in 2005, $2.15 billion in 2006, $2.44 billion in 2007, $2.50 billion in 2008, and now, $2.71 billion in 2008-09.
Wisconsin has only 5.6 million residents. When 2007-08 deficits are compared on a per capita basis, the Badger State had the largest GAAP deficit in the nation ($445 per person), followed by Illinois ($305), Maine ($181), and California ($113).
And let’s talk about student to teacher ratios in Wisconsin… they range from 8 to 1 to a high of 18 to 1. There was even one district with a ratio of 4 to 1….. Not too bad….. a lot of teachers…. And if you look at the average numbers of students to teachers, looks like about 15.1 to 1. The student teacher ratios for the states you mentioned are:
WI 15.1 to 1
VA 13.2 to 1
NC 15.1 to 1
TX 15 to 1
GA 15.7 to 1
SC 15.3 to 1
I think there are bigger issues to address the wide disparity between rankings and results.
From MONEY at CNN…
Under Wisconsin Gov. Walker’s plan, many state and local workers would pay about 5.8% toward their pension and about 12% of their healthcare benefits. They currently pay little toward their retirement benefits about about 6% of their medical premiums, Walker said.
Walker says these changes would help the state save $30 million in the last three months of the current fiscal year. Wisconsin is facing a $3.6 billion budget deficit for the biennium that starts on July 1, according to the state’s Department of Administration.
Even more controversial, Walker is looking to limit collective bargaining for most public employees to wages only. Local law enforcement and fire employees, as well as state troopers and inspectors would be exempt.
That means health care and pension contributions would no longer be subject to contract negotiations, giving state officials greater freedom to raise them.
Looks like the Teachers and State and locals workers have a sweet deal….. How many of us have the same plans…… And they want us to support them……
Dems leave the state and teachers are using phony medical excuses – can’t fire them as they are Union, well the teachers any way….
And if you listened to NPR Radio this morning, they discussed why the removal of collective bargaining is needed….. As I understand it, it requires a two step process…..
Del
February 21st, 2011
10:00 am
Evidently, FDR didn’t support public employee unions.
Adam
February 21st, 2011
10:02 am
Hey look, FACTS!
This is funny: If strong teachers unions truly do hamper education, the five states that ban collective bargaining by teachers ought to rank fairly high in educational performance.
It’s almost unfair, since they are all southern states. However, there is strong evidence that teacher’s unions either don’t hurt or actually help students, rather than the other way around. There is, however, NO credible evidence that teacher’s unions cause problems in education, except to cause (very minor) damage the pocketbook of the state.
With all the things that get vilified in the name of saving money, it almost makes me wonder if the people who keep calling for cuts in education, health, and the like are willing to pay for ANYTHING.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
10:02 am
“Interestingly, enought, the WI governor would leave in place those who politically supported him”
and those same, exempt, unions are out there supporting the others every day!
jt
February 21st, 2011
10:02 am
I still say………………………..
it isn’t a union if you are using tax-payer money. Unions are fighting a losing battle when they involve themselves with tax-payer money.
Could this be intentional?
This issue should be left up to the ballot.
Not extortion.
Still hoping my local police stage a sympathy “sick out”…And every Federal agency that starts with a letter of the alphabet.
Adam
February 21st, 2011
10:03 am
Del: Reagan DID support unions. I think perhaps the tables have turned a bit. And your hero was president a lot closer to our timeline than our last true war president.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
February 21st, 2011
10:03 am
AmVet
February 21st, 2011
9:59 am
I did not “parrot” Rumsfeld. You obviously read just part of the article. I just think it’s hilarious that some in the “unbiased” media, such as Crowley, continue to chant the 2008 election talking points mantra.
Lil' Barry Bailout
February 21st, 2011
10:04 am
The public employee union maggots have eaten all the way to the bone. When these parasites have collective bargaining power, the only folks missing from the negotiations are those paying the bills–Americans. This rigged game needs to stop, and all Americans hope that Governor Walker is successful in busting the union.
Public employee unions: Un-American. Parasites.
Del
February 21st, 2011
10:05 am
“said in a conference call with reporters that workers will do their fair share.”
I wonder what their definition of “fair share” means? Sounds like P/R disinformation to me.
Jay
February 21st, 2011
10:06 am
Del, from the Wisconsin State Journal:
“Top leaders of two of Wisconsin’s largest public employee unions announced they are willing to accept the financial concessions called for in Walker’s plan, but will not accept the loss of collective bargaining rights.
Mary Bell, president of the Wisconsin Education Association Council, and Marty Beil, executive director of AFSCME Council 24, said in a conference call with reporters that workers will do their fair share to narrow Wisconsin’s budget gap.
“We want to say loud and clear — it is not about those concessions,” Bell said. “For my members, it’s about retaining a voice in their professions.”
The two insisted their positions have not changed and Friday’s call was intended to clarify their opposition to Walker’s proposal. Bell, who represents 98,000 educators, and Beil, whose council includes 60,000 members, repeated calls for Walker to sit down with them.
Senate Democrats also reached out to Walker, sending him a letter urging him to remove the bargaining provisions from his bill.
But Walker repeated that he would not back down.”
Jimmy62
February 21st, 2011
10:07 am
FDR, god of the left and the American welfare state, was vehemently against public sector unions. And for good reason. These people say they are all about the children, yet they are currently preventing the children from getting an education because they want things the rest of us don’t have. And who are they negotiating against? The people of Wisconsin pay their salary, and the people of Wisconsin elected a guy who campaigned as being a hardass who would cut spending.
The Wisconsin reps who fled the state have abandoned the jobs they were elected to do. There should be special elections held to replace them with people willing to do their jobs. This is an assault on democracy. We were told over and over again after Obama won that elections have consequences. They certainly do, and now we’re seeing the result of the choices made in November last year. Too bad the left becomes anti-democratic when people choose something the left doesn’t like.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
10:07 am
“I wonder what their definition of “fair share” means? Sounds like P/R disinformation to me.”
“One of the missing Democratic state senators, Jon Erpenbach, said all state and local public employees — including teachers — have agreed to the financial aspects of Walker’s requested concessions on paying more for employee health care and pensions.
“In return they ask only that the provisions that deny their right to collectively bargain are removed,” Erpenbach said. “This will solve the budget challenge.”
http://www.cnn.com/2011/POLITICS/02/21/wisconsin.budget/index.html?hpt=T2
kayaker 71
February 21st, 2011
10:09 am
For far too many years, the scenario has been, you support my demands, I will see that you get our votes. Unions have intimidated non members by insisting on an open vote instead of closed vote proceedings to be able to see how others voted and then harass those who did not cooperate. Union dues have been deducted directly from paychecks and not voluntarily. Just imagine the legalized bribes (PAC contributions) that have originated from unions such as these to politician’s re-election campaigns. The average teacher’s salary in NJ was around 59K/yr. This is for working a 9 month year. Pro rate that over a 12 mo year and the salary equivalent is about 79K. Then throw in free health care, no funding of your retirement plans and collective bargaining and you have a pretty sweet deal. No wonder teacher’s unions kiss the a** of every politician that runs.
arnold
February 21st, 2011
10:09 am
Thank God for South Carolina.
Adam
February 21st, 2011
10:10 am
I don’t think Jimmy62 read the article before posting….
LBB: The Internet is partially government subsidized. You should get off the Internet if you don’t want to be a parasite. You don’t want to be a parasite do you?
Mary Elizabeth
February 21st, 2011
10:11 am
On The Ed Schultz Show on MSNBC, 2/18/11, Rev. Jesse Jackson said regarding the situation in Wisconsin, “Teachers are being used as scapegoats in a broader economic scheme.”
I think the words, “economic scheme” were well chosen by Jackson. And, the word “broader” implies that political forces greater than those simply in Wisconsin are at work.
BTW, the five states that disallow unions are Old South states, which have traditionally been paternalistic towards teachers. (In 1970, female teachers could not wear slacks to school unless they wore tops that covered their hips. I was part of that, so I know firsthand.) Paternalism treats teachers (and minorities) as childlike. If teachers cannot think or react as a equal adults, how can they feel free to teach children to think for themselves – the essence of intellectual curiosity?
Only after NYC teachers struck for higher pay in the 1960s were they given decent wages, but more importantly, they were finally afforded respect.
AmVet
February 21st, 2011
10:11 am
No offense meant, Lamp.
I wanted to post that Dumsfeld nonsense yesterday.
The man is a complete disgrace and an inveterate liar.
The point made in that report you linked is classic, though. Classically dumb.
So let’s see if I have this correct. All the lunatics in Pakistan. Saudi Arabia, Egypt and the other Islamohomicidal havens don’t like BHO.
Zooks!
It would seem that would make you unhappy.
Why not ask our historical allies who they respect? The current CiC or his predecessor.
I’m sure you wouldn’t want to know the result of that survey, huh?
Though in one way, they must have loved George.
They didn’t have to send their sons and daughters to die for nothing, because the rogue cowboy and toy soldier morons sent almost all of them in his coalition of the willing. Kids from Milwaukee and Miami and Memphis and…
harvey
February 21st, 2011
10:12 am
So much for the future of democracy when a bunch of pouting politicians can pull out of their duties. They should be recalled and replaced. The governor might just want to give up on this compromise, and fire about 7000 of those teachers, reducing the government payroll that way. Then people would moan about that too, but hey, somethings got to give.
Jay
February 21st, 2011
10:12 am
Del, it’s not a point in contention. Everybody in Wisconsin from the governor on down understands that the unions are willing to accept what Walker has demanded from them in terms of economics.
Adam
February 21st, 2011
10:12 am
kayaker: Unions have intimidated non members by insisting on an open vote instead of closed vote proceedings to be able to see how others voted and then harass those who did not cooperate
There’s something wrong with open voting now? Actions have consequences and people SHOULD be held accountable. You’re acting like unions are mafias, and that’s just not the case. They don’t go around breaking people’s legs for not voting their way.
Del
February 21st, 2011
10:13 am
Adam, How Reagan dealt with the air traffic controllers was close to our time line. “last true war president.” The thousands who’ve died in wars since WWII and those who have in our present war would be glad to know that that they really weren’t fighting in a true war and that it was all make believe. They all could come back to life with that good news.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
February 21st, 2011
10:13 am
AmVet
February 21st, 2011
10:11 am
Would you consider the leaders of France in Germany in that mix?
AmVet
February 21st, 2011
10:13 am
Also, hysterical is how the right wingers now almost magically seem to respect FDR’s judgment.
Good, because I have a whole lot of other info regarding him, they can now respect.
LOL…
larry
February 21st, 2011
10:14 am
From the Milwaukee Journal……………………….
Walker pushed through new tax breaks, mostly for business, that add about $140 million to the deficit. We question the utility of some of the breaks, especially adding $25 million to the already underused state Economic Development Tax Credit program. The break for health savings accounts, while a good idea, didn’t have to be done now. We’d rather see more focus on existing business clusters and promoting innovation.
Repeal those tax breaks and there is your 30 million shortfall for this year taken care of.
Ragnar Danneskjöld
February 21st, 2011
10:14 am
Good morning all. We agree with the headline, but the rest of the essay uses the standard flawed-leftist” correlation is causation” argument, as if unions have anything to do with the performance of the teachers in the classroom. Tell that to Chicago and DC and Atlanta and Los Angeles and Philadelphia and inner city Boston and East St. Louis. (Or maybe Jay is arguing that unions make a beneficial difference only in white suburbs?).
On the hand, I do agree that the democrat-sponsored action has nothing to do with economics and everything to do with overturning democracy. Gov. Walker ran on a platform of restoring the budget of Wisconsin to a sound basis, and the mob-intention is to subvert that promise. The intelligent solution to the “unrest” would be for Gov. Walker to follow the PATCO example.
AmVet
February 21st, 2011
10:14 am
Historical allies. Who do you pray tell, think they are?
Libya and Yemen?
Adam
February 21st, 2011
10:15 am
Del: We call our current conflicts wars, but WWII was the last true “war.” Congress has not declared war on another nation since.
Murph
February 21st, 2011
10:15 am
I have no sympathy for Unions that protect bad teachers. However, a good teacher/employee who is mistreated/fired/demoted unjustly deserves due process. It’s the American way. Right now, as it appears, this right would be taken away if the Governor gets his way. It’s easy for us to sit in judgement when we’re not involved, and denigrate the protesters as “maggots” and “parasites”. It’s quite another when we’re the ones treated unjustly, when we get fired unjustly. Those of you supporting the governor now may someday find yourself in such a situation, but without recourse, other than spending money you don’t have on a lawyer. Jay’s right. This is NOT about budgets.
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
10:15 am
I thought Walker (R) was threatening to cut 6000 jobs if those meanie teachers did not listen to him stomp his little footsies. Well, he should put up or shut up. The little wimp.
Jay
February 21st, 2011
10:16 am
Sorry sfd. Card check is wrong. Union elections should be a secret ballot process and people should be free to vote their own conscience, free of intimidation and coercion from either side.
Walker’s extremism should not be used to justify extremism on the other side.
Ragnar Danneskjöld
February 21st, 2011
10:16 am
Dear Jay @ 10:12, good morning, we agree that the unions are insisting on their “right” to compel acceptance of constrictive work rules and the closed-shop, as those and “sick outs” are the means of undermining intelligent management of the schools.
Del
February 21st, 2011
10:16 am
Jay, I haven’t seen or read specifics about their willingness only vague reference, such as what you’re reporting. Where are the quotes?
Adam
February 21st, 2011
10:17 am
Ragnar: Gov. Walker ran on a platform of restoring the budget of Wisconsin to a sound basis, and the mob-intention is to subvert that promise.
Guess you missed the memo about how he RAMMED THROUGH bills that broke his promise.
Jimmy62
February 21st, 2011
10:17 am
Few of us care much about FDR, but since he gets quoted a lot by the left, I thought it only fair to mention his opinion on this. It’s not really fair of you guys to ignore everything you disagree with. Sort of like how the left likes to ignore the bad stuff about JFK, like how he got us in to Vietnam, how his father bought him the presidency (something people whined a lot about GW Bush for) using ill-gotten gains from criminal enterprises, how he screwed up Cuba and brought us to the brink of nuclear war because he just wasn’t that good of a diplomat, stuff like that.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
February 21st, 2011
10:17 am
AmVet
By the way, I was just posing the question on France and Germany. I haven’t hosted a State dinner in ages and haven’t actually talked with various foreign leaders. You, however, must talk with them regularly.
Again, read the article. Crowley said Obama wasn’t disliked in foreign countries like W. She didn’t say which ones.
MPercy
February 21st, 2011
10:18 am
Lord Help Us @9:35 am “Nice graph…reminds me of the one that shows that the reddest of the red states are also the biggest recipents of federal largesse…”
By far the largest recipient of federal largesse is the District of Columbia. Our state of Georgia is well to the red end of the spectrum, but is essentially a break-even state where we “receive” almost exactly $1.00 in federal money for every dollar collected from Georgia residents. Some years it’s $0.98 and some years it’s $1.01, but for the last 20 years or so it’s averaged right at $1.00.
As for California and NY being “ripped off” by receiving only 85 cents on the dollar, well, a goodly percentage of the US’s millionaires live in either NY or California. There are over one million millionaires in those two states alone (over 368,000 millionaires in NY and over 663,000 millionaires in California), and we want to tax the rich, right? So it seems like that’s working out exactly as planned.
@@
February 21st, 2011
10:18 am
For 12 of the 13 years I’ve worked at my school (private), we had no sick pay, vacation pay, health insurance or investment opportunity. The total workforce? 15.
We sat down with our administrator and were able to get three of the four. No vacation pay since we’re off during the summer months.
Collective bargaining without having to pay union dues.
Never, would we consider walking away from our little charges. Their future is too important to us.
Though, I will say,…..sick pay has resulted in more absenteeism so I’m not sure it was a good thing.
Ragnar Danneskjöld
February 21st, 2011
10:19 am
Dear Adam @ 10:17, good morning, yes I missed everything suggesting that Gov. Walker rammed through bills that would explode the sound economics of Wisconsin. Thought sure that was the prior democrat administration.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
February 21st, 2011
10:19 am
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
10:15 am
“The little wimp.”
Such decorum you bring to the debate.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
10:20 am
I thought about this issue some during a long drive this weekend, and one thing I realized is that if Gov. Walker succeeds in this union busting plan…one result is going to be a return to the union forming campaigns of the past. Exactly the OPPOSITE result that he hopes to get.
And union organizing will be much easier and quicker now that it was 100 years ago, because the organizers will not have the same depth of fight to teach the workers the value of unions. Plus, we have the example of the Middle East and Africa to show how quickly social networks can be used to spread information and plan rallies.
If he doesn’t cave on this, we could very well see a BIG increase in unionionization as a result.
Adam
February 21st, 2011
10:20 am
Murph: It’s easy for us to sit in judgement when we’re not involved, and denigrate the protesters as “maggots” and “parasites”.
Actually, it’s very easy for me NOT to see them that way. Teachers are worthy of respect. A few bad apples doesn’t ACTUALLY make the whole bunch bad. That’s pessimism to the extreme, and it seems to be the way Republicans see most things public sector. It’s sad they don’t apply the same standard to the private sector, which can do no harm ever in the eyes of those who have this public sector pessimism.
Adam
February 21st, 2011
10:21 am
Ragnar: Here’s the memo: http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf
Of note: More than half of the lower estimate ($117.2 million) is due to the impact of Special Session Senate Bill 2 (health savings accounts), Assembly Bill 3 (tax deductions/credits for relocated businesses), and Assembly Bill 7 (tax exclusion for new employees).
MPercy
February 21st, 2011
10:21 am
Jay @10:16 am “Sorry sfd. Card check is wrong. Union elections should be a secret ballot process and people should be free to vote their own conscience, free of intimidation and coercion from either side. ”
Once again, Jay pleasantly surprises. Not entirely unexpected, though still a nice surprise.
Adam
February 21st, 2011
10:21 am
Ragnar: Also please note the date. The protests didn’t start until way after that
Hillbilly Deluxe
February 21st, 2011
10:23 am
1-The bill would require employees to pay half their pension costs. That is something that should be open to negotiation but the employees have said they’re willing to do it, so it’s a moot point.
2-The bill would require employees to pay up to 12% of their health care costs. Same as above.
3-Employees would no longer have to automatically pay union dues. I don’t have a problem with this, as I don’t believe anyone should have to join a union, that doesn’t want to.
4-The unions could not bargain over anything but wages. That’s a power grab by the Governor, in my opinion.
5-The union would have to hold annual elections to keep their organizations intact. This is a union busting tactic, plain and simple. Maybe they should hold an election for Governor, every year.
6-They would lose the ability to have union dues deducted from state paychecks. This is another union busting move.
What we have here, has little to do with the budget. It’s an idealogical battle being waged by true believers. I wouldn’t be surprised Gov. Walker has aspirations for higher office and is using this to try and make a name for himself.
Jimmy62
February 21st, 2011
10:24 am
What about the ability to withhold union dues from paychecks? That’s BS, too, and I’m glad they are ending that one. Why should taxpayer dollars be used to collect money for a group that then negotiates against taxpayers for more money? Yet more reason that public sectors unions should be banned. The people that pay their salaries don’t actually get to negotiate. Instead you have people with no stake in the game, like politicians who will be out of office in 3 more years and have no responsibility to any of it, making the decisions for the people who actually pay the bills.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
February 21st, 2011
10:24 am
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
10:20 am
“…to teach the workers the value of unions”
Please substitute “value” with “cost”.
jt
February 21st, 2011
10:24 am
Throw an increase in cigarette tax on it.
That’ll solve this whole problem………………….for awhile.
Maybe a hoop-cheese tax too.
AmVet
February 21st, 2011
10:24 am
My point is that is the ones that matter.
“At a time when we must face huge challenges together, your election has raised enormous hope in France, in Europe and beyond said Sarkozy.”
Mr Sarkozy was soon followed by international colleagues. Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, said she was confident Mr Obama could tackle the “significant challenges” he would face immediately after taking office in January.
Mrs Merkel said: “I am convinced that Europe and the United States will work closely and in a spirit of mutual trust together to confront new dangers and risks and will seize the opportunities presented by our global world.”
There was praise from Africa, where Kgalema Motlanthe, the president of South Africa, said the continent “stood proud” of Mr Obama.
Manmohan Singh, Indian prime minister, praised his “extraordinary journey” to the White House, which he said had inspired people across the world.
And in Israel, President Shimon Peres proclaimed “high regard” for Obama and his belief that “the future belongs to the young,” a point that would seem to exclude 71-year-old Republican nominee John McCain.
It’s OK to hate the president, just don’t pretend that everybody, or anybody else of note, does as well…
Southern Comfort
February 21st, 2011
10:25 am
I am torn on the issue of collective bargaining for federal, state and local employees. This ability seems to have been used as a lever that is unavailable to most citizens.
The thought of taxpayer money being cycled through union dues and into PACs and special interest lobbying is tough to swallow.
Think of it this way… A union, such as a teacher’s union, is a organization of professionals working in the same profession who group together to try to help shape and influence their profession. Unions are no different than the American Bar Association (or their derivatives), the AMA, or any other professional organization. The only difference is that unions actively work for workplace improvements as opposed to just allowing the status quo or employer dictate workplace standards.
On union dues and politics. By law, union dues can not be used for political campaigns. Unions, like other organizations, have created PACs that members CAN donate to if they so choose. At the most basic level, everything a public employee does with their money can be stated as using taxpayer funds for something because they are paid using taxpayer funds.
Mr. Snarky
February 21st, 2011
10:25 am
Let’s see, if I wanted to manufacture a crisis to justify my union-busting agenda, what would I do?
I think I’d cut taxes for business, then when the projected deficits were huge blame it on the unions…yeah, that’s the ticket!
Ragnar Danneskjöld
February 21st, 2011
10:25 am
Dear Adam @ 10:21, your memo confirms the standard leftist view, that tax reductions have no potential beneficial effect on economic activity and that excessive spending is never a factor in weak economics. We would agree that conservatives do not share that analysis.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
10:25 am
“Why should taxpayer dollars be used to collect money for a group that then negotiates against taxpayers for more money? ”
It isn’t taxpayer money once it’s paid as salary to the employee.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
February 21st, 2011
10:26 am
AmVet
February 21st, 2011
10:24 am
…and the dates of these quotes?
ncgreybr
February 21st, 2011
10:26 am
Hate to break it to you LBB, but public employee union employees are Americans and apparently a lot more American in their thinking than you.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
10:26 am
“Please substitute “value” with “cost”.”
Most things of value also have a cost
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
February 21st, 2011
10:27 am
Well, the unions are not without accomplishment. Shoot, they’ve contributed greatly to the economic growth in China.
Mr. Snarky
February 21st, 2011
10:27 am
Did I mention that my wife, Morgan Fairchild, came up with this idea?
Keep up the good fight!
February 21st, 2011
10:27 am
Granny….I think its great that even the unions that are not impacted by the proposed law are out in force to support the teachers and other unions!
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
February 21st, 2011
10:28 am
Keep up the good fight!
February 21st, 2011
10:27 am
In other words, they’re laying out of work as well.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
February 21st, 2011
10:29 am
Mr. Snarky
February 21st, 2011
10:27 am
Yeah, that’s the ticket.
Hillbilly Deluxe
February 21st, 2011
10:29 am
Union elections should be a secret ballot process and people should be free to vote their own conscience, free of intimidation and coercion from either side.
I agree with that.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
10:29 am
“I think its great that even the unions that are not impacted by the proposed law are out in force to support the teachers and other unions!”
and it’s going to be highly interesting to see if there’s a sea change in which candidates those exempt unions support future elections
Southern Comfort
February 21st, 2011
10:29 am
Del @ 9:47
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/02/21/earlyshow/main20034365.shtml
Speaking to “The Early Show” Monday from an undisclosed location outside Wisconsin, Mark Miller, one of 14 Democrats who left the state, said that Democrats and the public employee unions have put forth a compromise. “The problem is, is that the governor has to agree, and the governor has not done anything except insist that it has to be his way – all or nothing.
“He should have negotiated with the workers and he refused to do that. He tried to impose his will. And he unilaterally is stripping away workers’ rights.”
“The governor needs to recognize that this is a democracy, and in a democracy you negotiate,” Miller told anchor Erica Hill. “The unions, the public employees, have agreed to the economic demands. All they ask is that they be able to retain the workers’ rights. And we’re supporting them in that.”
also in the same article:
Walker also lost backing from the head of the Wisconsin Law Enforcement Association. Tracy Fuller, executive board president of the WLEA, said in a statement that he regrets endorsing Walker in last year’s governor’s race, and describes the governor’s proposal (which is referred to as a “Budget Repair Bill”) as draconian.
“This bill carves out an exemption for ‘public safety workers,’ but if we are honest, those exemptions will be limited. Once the draconian changes are implemented on the rest of the public employees, it’s only a matter of time until they catch the public safety workers too.
Even the public union guys that supported Walker are seeing the writing on the wall.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
February 21st, 2011
10:30 am
AmVet
February 21st, 2011
10:24 am
Regarding my 10:26, most of these sound like the lovefest from the 2008 election.
MPercy
February 21st, 2011
10:30 am
When corporations support certain legislators or legislation, it is viewed as “special interests” or “corporate welfare” or “politicians in business’ pocket”. When unions do the same, it’s all cake. Sauce for the goose should be sauce for the gander.
It seems unholy somehow that government employees unions (I have different expectations from private sector unions) get to elect their own bosses and get those bosses who are beholden to the unions to make the rules. It seems reasonable that elected officials who were strongly supported by unions might not always consider the best interests of the taxpaying public when “negotiating” with unions.
StJ
February 21st, 2011
10:31 am
Now if we can just get the Dems to leave the country when Repubs in DC take up bills they don’t like…
…then lock the door behind them.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
February 21st, 2011
10:32 am
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
10:29 am
You’re kidding right? Or did I misread your post? Are you wondering which party the unions will support in the next election? BAAAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!
Del
February 21st, 2011
10:32 am
This disinformation that the union and their membership will accept Walkers increased contributions to their pension and health care is just exactly that, disinformation.
AmVet
February 21st, 2011
10:33 am
Typical Republican.
The guy jacks up spending even more and then contrives this to offset it.
He should at least man up and say what the real reason is. And it has almost nothing to do with the money. It has everything to do with giving his base what they want – union busting, whether it makes sense or not.
Anti-worker. Anti-American.
Southern Comfort
February 21st, 2011
10:34 am
For far too many years, the scenario has been, you support my demands, I will see that you get our votes.
Kayaker, are you talking about the Chamber of Commerce or unions????
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
10:35 am
Del
February 21st, 2011
10:32 am
This disinformation that the union and their membership will accept Walkers increased contributions to their pension and health care is just exactly that, disinformation.
and you know that just exactly how?????
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
10:35 am
“Are you wondering which party the unions will support in the next election? ”
I refer you to the dictionary to learn the difference between “candidate” and “party”
Adam
February 21st, 2011
10:36 am
Jimmy62: Why should taxpayer dollars be used to collect money for a group that then negotiates against taxpayers for more money?
If you’re a public sector employee, just where else is the money going to come from?
Ragnar: your memo confirms the standard leftist view, that tax reductions have no potential beneficial effect on economic activity and that excessive spending is never a factor in weak economics.
Actually the point I was trying to make is that before his bill pushing, there would have been a surplus amount of revenue over cost, even with things as they are. Now there’s a shortfall, and none of the bill that caused the shortfall have anything to do with teachers, or unions, and that’s who gets the blame.
Secondarily, taxes really don’t have anything to do with job creation. They have plenty to do with economics, but not a lick of lowered taxes go to creating jobs, and not a lick of slightly raised taxes really breaks the bank for a company that hires people. The largest and perhaps only factor worthy of note in job creation economics is PROFIT vs. LOSS. Nothing else.
@@
February 21st, 2011
10:36 am
“After the 2005-07 state budget was approved by the Legislature, Governor Doyle partially vetoed 752 words out of a large section of the budget to create a 20-word sentence. The result was a raid of $427-million from the Transportation Fund to pay for schools, an appropriation the Legislature never authorized.
The 2007-09 state budget transfers $200 million from the state’s Patient Compensation Fund to the general fund. The Wisconsin Medical Society is now suing the state because of the raid that could be illegal.
When citizens pay a tax or fee designated for a specific purpose, they expect the funds will be used in that manner. The use of funds for other programs or services other than those the funding was intended for is a serious breach of faith and trust with the public. These raids are wrong and must be stopped.”
Doyle starts with “D”.
Deficit starts with “D”.
Democrat starts with “D”.
jewcowboy
February 21st, 2011
10:37 am
I may just be cynical..or naive..not sure which, but this strikes me as a bargaining ploy. The Gov. puts something totally unpalatable on the table (ending collective bargaining), riling up everyone…making his other proposals increasing individual contributions to pension and healthcare the starting point of negotiations if he drops the attack on collective bargaining.
“I want your kidney and to blow your brains out.”
“That is unacceptable…if you don’t blow my brains out, you can have my kidney and my corneas”
“Ok…If I don’t blow your brains out, I want your left kidney, both corneas, and both testicles.”
“Well that kind of sucks..but at least I won’t be dead…you’re on.”
Murph
February 21st, 2011
10:38 am
Adam. I agree. This whole idea of “Unions are Bad” parallels the thinking that “Government is Bad”. Niether could be further from the truth. Again, some love to repeat both of these lines, that is until they find themselves in the crosshairs. Then their tunes change, and they want to be bailed out.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
February 21st, 2011
10:38 am
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
10:35 am
When it comes to unions, the candidate doesn’t matter. Only the party.
Southern Comfort
February 21st, 2011
10:38 am
HD @ 10:23
Agree 100% with your take. I know and respect your opinion because you were raised by a union member.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
10:39 am
“but this strikes me as a bargaining ploy”
I would agree IF this had been a bargaining situation, but it is not. He is trying to railroad through the ENTIRE bill and, so far, as stated he will not back down from the union busting provisions of that bill.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
10:40 am
“When it comes to unions, the candidate doesn’t matter. Only the party”
This may change that dynamic.
Del
February 21st, 2011
10:40 am
Walker was elected as governor based on what he said needed to be done in Wisconsin. He’s now doing what he told the voters he’d do if elected. It doesn’t matter what Mark Miller says on “The Early Show” from an undisclosed location or what Tracy Fuller says, it’s what the voters heard before they voted. The unions and the democrats could very well lose big on this one, if so, it will only be what they deserve.
jewcowboy
February 21st, 2011
10:41 am
Doggone/GA,
They key word in that statement is “so far”.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
February 21st, 2011
10:43 am
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
10:40 am
Nah. Unions always lean left. Sure, they may hedge their bets and throw a few financial crumbs to the right, but the left gets the lion’s share of the cash cow.
Hillbilly Deluxe
February 21st, 2011
10:44 am
SoCo @ 10:34
In my county, a large portion of local Chamber of Commerce funds come from the local hotel/motel tax. I seldom hear the people who complain about government “involvement” in business complain about that.
Sort of reminds me of a guy who was running for County Comissioner. When he was talking to me, trying to get me to vote for him, he talked about how he was a business owner, believed in limited government, wanted to cut county spending (which I was in favor of, by the way) and was a faithful follower of Brother Bob Barr. I didn’t vote for him but he managed to win. So one of the first things he did upon being elected (and this is a part time job in our county) was to put his entire family on the county insurance policy at a cost to taxpayers of $14,000+ a year.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
10:44 am
“They key word in that statement is “so far”.”
Yes, of course it is…but he has now placed himself in a position where backing off the union busting part of that bill is going to be a HUGE victory for the unions.
My worst fear, at this point, is that one of those Democratic legislators will cave first and give him the quorum needed to pass the bill intact.
larry
February 21st, 2011
10:44 am
This is also yet another way to make sure Democrats do not have funding for future elections. Ever since Citizen Unitied opened up a huge can of worms, this was item number 1 on the agenda of most Repubs, and the U.S. Chanber of Commerce.
They have busted most private unions, and now , they are going after public unions.
But , one problem , this has backfired and now people are waking up to what has happened.
I wonder if a recall effort is underway for Gov. Walker.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
10:45 am
“Nah. Unions always lean left”
Which, of course, explains why three big public unions SUPPORTED Walker’s campaign for governor
jewcowboy
February 21st, 2011
10:45 am
I’m just curious as to why so many Republicans on this page are against unions? Could you please name one other institution that currently represents middle and blue collar Americans in our political process in a meaningful way?
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
February 21st, 2011
10:45 am
Hey, where can I get some of those bogus “Dr’s absenses” forms. Oh yeah, the local union steward.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
10:46 am
“represents middle and blue collar Americans”
You’ve just answered your own question
Del
February 21st, 2011
10:46 am
Granny, how do I know? because nobody has been able to quote a creditable source from either the union or its membership that they’re willing to accept the governor’s financial conditions.
Lil' Barry Bailout
February 21st, 2011
10:47 am
Murph
This whole idea of “Unions are Bad” parallels the thinking that “Government is Bad”.
——————-
Government IS bad. That’s why we have a constitution to protect us from it. If you love government, it’s because you’re a parasite.
jm
February 21st, 2011
10:47 am
“At the moment, only five states prohibit collective bargaining by teachers and other public employees, as the map below demonstrates.”
Jesus, the gov’s ok with collective bargaining over wages. Isn’t that enough? He wants to pull out all the “benefit” stuff so politicians don’t keep writing future checks taxpayers can’t afford to cash.
Come on….
Jay
February 21st, 2011
10:48 am
Del, you clearly appreciate the importance of the union’s position: If they are indeed willing to accept the benefit cuts to help ease the budget crisis, then the whole moral case changes. It then becomes a raw and ugly power play by the governor.
You understand that, which is why you continue to try to deny reality. You need to keep believing that the unions won’t compromise, because that’s the only way you can keep justifying it to yourself.
On the other hand, nobody in Wisconsin, including the governor, is trying to pretend that the unions’ concession isn’t real. Nobody is trying to claim it’s disinformation.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
10:48 am
“because nobody has been able to quote a creditable source from either the union or its membership that they’re willing to accept the governor’s financial conditions”
How about a quote from someone credible that those reports are wrong? I’ve been hearing that report since at least last Friday, and have not, so far heard anyone dispute it…let alone anyone credible.
Adam
February 21st, 2011
10:49 am
Del: It’s starting to look like you just dislike the Democrats in general, and the unions by extension only. i.e. if the Republicans support busting the unions and Democrats oppose, they Republicans must be right and the Democrats must be wrong. That’s what it looks like to me, from your arguments, anyway.
larry
February 21st, 2011
10:49 am
Doyle starts with “D”.
Deficit starts with “D”.
Democrat starts with “D”.
Deal starts with a “D”
Repulsive starts with a “R”
Reverse starts with a “R”
Republican starts with a ” R”
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
10:50 am
Del
February 21st, 2011
10:46 am
Granny, how do I know? because nobody has been able to quote a creditable source from either the union or its membership that they’re willing to accept the governor’s financial conditions.
Actually a creditable source was sited, more than once above. Your unwillingless to give them credit is your issue.
Blather on dude!
jewcowboy
February 21st, 2011
10:51 am
Doggone/GA,
“You’ve just answered your own question”
Bingo!
Adam
February 21st, 2011
10:51 am
Wrong ends with G for governor.
Or we could stop the word game.
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
10:52 am
Leg Lamp: Such decorum you bring to the debate
So I could have just as easily said “the Republican” instead of “the wimp”. What the difference. As for the heart of the post you commented on, Walker did threaten to lay off 6000 and he has not kept his promise, so “Wimp” sounds appropriate.
How about yourself, what rules of decorum do you adhere to.
AmVet
February 21st, 2011
10:52 am
jcb, it is a typical neo-con ploy.
Denigrate the very institutions that have enabled one personally, to partake of the American bounty.
Labor Day off, paid vacations, overtime pay, safety regulations in dangerous jobs, and on and on and on.
The cons take enormous advantage of them but deride those that provided them.
Ingrates.
As for the government, just read the bilge water of certain lil’ blogger here who has sucked at Uncle Sam’s teats for his entire life. Yet everybody but him is apparently a parasite…
jm
February 21st, 2011
10:52 am
Jay, your analysis would make a statistician vomit profusely into a toilet bowl. Followed by a bout of crying in despair, followed by a jump off a bridge.
Your analysis does absolutely nothing to prove, or disprove, the relevance of collective bargaining in education. To determine the significance of collective bargaining, said analysis would need to control for a variety of other factors that also influence educational achievement.
Jay, please keep your dispute of what the Governor is doing in the political realm, not the analysis realm, because your analysis holds no water.
Lil' Barry Bailout
February 21st, 2011
10:53 am
48% Back GOP Governor in Wisconsin Spat, 38% Side With Unions
A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 48% of Likely U.S. Voters agree more with the Republican governor in his dispute with union workers. Thirty-eight percent (38%) agree more with the unionized public employees, while 14% are undecided.
—————–
No wonder Jay and the AJC aren’t reporting any poll results on the subject.
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
10:54 am
Leg Lamp: “Oops…..my bad. It’s left leaning “progressive” teachers and union officials spewing the hate.”
And just like on the streets of Cairo, justified hate is a beautiful thing to watch. May it succeed !
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
February 21st, 2011
10:55 am
What I loved was listening to the rabble rousers who were saying this is not about the teacher or the unions…..it’s about the children. So they lay out of work, shut down the school systems, and carry signs equating the Wisc Gov to Hitler, Mussolini, and Mubarek. What’s examples to “the children”.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
February 21st, 2011
10:56 am
“Walker, remember, is not removing unions’ fundamental power to bargain for wages. He is demanding that state workers put 5.8% of their wages toward retirement and that they cover 12.6% of their health care premiums, which would still have them paying more than $100 less a month than the average schmoe. He is also proposing that elected officials determine the shape of employee benefits without having to bargain them, and this as much as the added cost has unions crying “unfair.”"
AmVet
February 21st, 2011
10:57 am
jm, did you even read what the man wrote?
Go back, reread it and then laugh at your own post…
jm
February 21st, 2011
10:57 am
Jay, swallow this…..
The results show teacher unionism to be the most significant factor in the decline in scores.
Teachers’ unions and excellence in education: An analysis of the decline in SAT scores
http://www.springerlink.com/content/35240435088np2v2/
Controversy surrounds the recent finding that college entrance exams are lower today than they were twenty years ago, but little empirical evidence has been offered in the debate. This paper uses cross-sectional regression analysis to examine the decline in SAT scores between 1972 and 1983. Three explanations are tested: the changing social environment, the financial resources devoted to education, and the emergence of militant teacher unions. The results show teacher unionism to be the most significant factor in the decline in scores.
-Jay, I don’t if this guy’s analysis is valid. But I know yours isn’t.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
10:57 am
“I don’t if this guy’s analysis is valid”
but you quote it anyway
stands for decibels
February 21st, 2011
10:58 am
At the risk of going all AmVet/J-Nix “Hey I’m just keepin’ it real, mannn” at this here blog…
Walker’s extremism should not be used to justify extremism on the other side.
Jay, just the other day I was trying to explain to my kid what the word “equivocation” meant; you’ve handed me a great example.
(also, it’s good to know that those of us who supported candidate Obama’s stated position on EFCA—you know, the guy who won in an electoral landslide in 2008? That guy?—and thus attempted to hand America’s organized labor in the private sector a friggin’ life preserver, are regarded as “extremists” by the liberal media.)
Kamchak
February 21st, 2011
10:58 am
Shorter jm: I loves me some Ayn Rand.
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
10:58 am
Did someone type “examples to the children.” Like what. Glenn Richardson. Mark Sanford. Nathan Deal… What examples to the children.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
February 21st, 2011
10:59 am
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
10:54 am
Why not ask Lara. Logan about that “justified hate”?
Jimmy62
February 21st, 2011
10:59 am
Adam: If union members want to contribute to their union, they can do so, no one is stopping them. Taxpayers dollars should not be used to pay for this collection, as is currently done. If the union members don’t actually want to pay their union dues unless it’s forcefully withheld from their paychecks, then they must not be all that dedicated to the union.
jm
February 21st, 2011
10:59 am
Doggone 10:57 – that analysis is 10,000 times more valid than Jay’s “look at this chart, and look at this chart” theoretical non-causal or reverse-causal analysis. It’s a joke.
Del
February 21st, 2011
10:59 am
Jay, if you’re unable to support your statement that the union and their membership have publicly agreed to benefit cuts and everyone in Wisconsin is aware of their acceptance either admit it or provide proof of their stated acceptance. Presuming that I’m denying reality only because I want to believe that they’re unwilling to compromise is purely your presumption, which proves nothing. I’m only saying that I haven’t seen any creditable reports stating their willingness. Prove me wrong
RW-(the original)
February 21st, 2011
11:00 am
I’d be more likely to believe the unions seriousness on this compromise if that had been their position before the Democrats scurried off Illinois and the siege on the statehouse failed.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
11:01 am
“Taxpayers dollars should not be used to pay for this collection, as is currently done”
They aren’t taxpayer dollars once they are paid as SALARY to the employees
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
11:02 am
“that analysis is 10,000 times more valid than Jay’s ”
You can say that…after saying you don’t know if it’s valid?
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
11:03 am
“I’d be more likely to believe the unions seriousness on this compromise if that had been their position before the Democrats scurried off Illinois and the siege on the statehouse failed”
If the Democratic legislators had NOT “scurried off” the bill would have been PASSED and it wouldn’t matter if the unions were willing to compromise on the wage and benefits part.
jm
February 21st, 2011
11:04 am
This battle is just corrupt monopsony lovers and politician favor buyers versus those who want rational, responsible good government. Simple as that. Governor good, teachers unions bad.
Game over. I hope the Gov takes the Dems to court and gets a ruling that in their absence he can pass the laws. This is an abuse of the democratic process by Democrats and they should go to jail.
Adam
February 21st, 2011
11:05 am
Jimmy62: There’s no point in NOT taking it from the paycheck as an option, because teachers get paid through tax dollars. All you’re doing is creating that extra step for the tax dollars to go right back to union dues. What exactly is the point other than to create an extra step? Are you hoping that everyone will suddenly not want to pay dues because they have to do it without convenience?
stands for decibels
February 21st, 2011
11:05 am
RW, I’ve yet to hear you complain of GOP senators denying an up-or-down vote on countless bills the past several years, due to their own version of “scurrying off.”
jm
February 21st, 2011
11:05 am
Doggone 11:02 – yes. Because the guy at least used regression analysis to look at the issue.
Now, the study might be old, and the guy might be biased. But there’s no reason to believe so as of now. I’ll take the regression study over Jay’s analysis 10-1.
stands for decibels
February 21st, 2011
11:06 am
oh, and jm, tell us how you “voted for Obama” again.
That’s always a hoot.
Del
February 21st, 2011
11:06 am
Granny, “creditable sources were sited more than once” Where?whose posts? identify those creditable sources and then you can accuse me of blathering.
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
11:07 am
Lil Barry
Perhaps Rasmussen should have stayed in Wisconsin when polling
“By a 2 to 1 margin, voters across that state are either strongly opposed to Walker’s proposal or think that it goes too far”
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
11:07 am
“This is an abuse of the democratic process by Democrats and they should go to jail.”
Nope. This is a textbook example of “rules have consequences” Quorum rules exist PRECISELY to help prevent a small majority from pushing through bills regardless. They have to have a stated percentage of members of the legislative body THERE in order for their votes to be valid. The Dems are simply exercising their right to use those rules to prevent a bad bill from being passed.
AmVet
February 21st, 2011
11:07 am
jm, this morning you and the word analysis are total oxymorons.
You absurdly claim that JB says something he does not.
And then you go all batshiite crazy over it.
Reading comprehension is not your enemy…
jm
February 21st, 2011
11:08 am
Got my econ terms backwards. A labor union with collective bargaining rights is a monopoly, not a monopsony…. oh well. Obviously a bit rusty.
Adam
February 21st, 2011
11:08 am
dB @ 11:05: hear hear
RW-(the original)
February 21st, 2011
11:08 am
stands @ 11:05,
Examples please? And cloture isn’t an example.
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
11:08 am
Del
I’m with Jay on that and you…
“You understand that, which is why you continue to try to deny reality. You need to keep believing that the unions won’t compromise, because that’s the only way you can keep justifying it to yourself.”
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
11:09 am
“identify those creditable sources and then you can accuse me of blathering.”
Granny…I think he’s getting desperate. First he says he hasn’t heard ANY reports of concessions from the unions. Now the next step is to claim that neither I nor Jay posted anything with NAMES of union officials in them!
jm
February 21st, 2011
11:09 am
sfd 11:06 – I did, and contributed money. Last 3 times OFA called me I in no uncertain terms told them to f-off despite a tirade of reasons I should somehow love Obama.
They have no clue. OFA is floundering so now its trying to make itself relevant again by inserting itself into the Wisconsin mess. Disgusting.
stands for decibels
February 21st, 2011
11:09 am
And cloture isn’t an example.
of course it is.
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
11:10 am
Leg Lamp: “Why not ask Lara. Logan about that “justified hate”?”
From that comment I’m assuming you think the Mubarek regime should have been propped up, in the interest of preserving order ?
Adam
February 21st, 2011
11:10 am
Doggone: NAME NAMES DAMMIT
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
11:11 am
Y’all read the story about Abe Lincoln a fine Republican crawling out the window of a locked room to stop a vote……
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
11:11 am
Why are Republicans so jealous of union employees.
jm
February 21st, 2011
11:11 am
Doggone 11:07 – as always you’re ignorant. Quorum rules were around to prevent a minority from locking out a majority and taking over government without a real mandate. The minority has found a new way to abuse this by stopping the process of government by not showing up. They should go to jail and I hope they do so.
Jimmy62
February 21st, 2011
11:11 am
My personal hostility towards unions came when I was 16 and got my first job as a cashier at a grocery store. I said I didn’t want to join the union because I was earning minimum wage, didn’t expect to earn more in that position, and was satisfied with what I was being offered. So what happened? First the union rep bugged me about joining a bunch of times, then got other employees to mention how great it was. After I refused to be intimidated or swayed, somehow my third, fourth, and fifth paychecks had union dues withheld. So I bitched, it was taken to the union HQ, they said they had a form signed by me showing that I wanted to join. I said I never, ever signed such a thing. They chose not to believe me. Lots of bitching later, turns out the local union rep forged my signature. And what happened? I got my money back, and did not join the union. And the local rep didn’t even get a slap on the wrist because she did such a good job getting people to sign up.
Lying evil hypocrites, that’s been my every experience with private sector unions. And public sector ones shouldn’t even exist.
stands for decibels
February 21st, 2011
11:11 am
sfd 11:06 – I did, and contributed money.
given that you appear to have disagreed with him on virtually every domestic issue Obama had ever staked a position to, that seems an odd thing to do.
jm
February 21st, 2011
11:12 am
AmVet 11:07 – go re-read the second 1/2 of his post dude.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
11:13 am
“as always you’re ignorant. Quorum rules were around to prevent a minority from locking out a majority and taking over government without a real mandate”
Ok, that’s my laugh for the day.
jm
February 21st, 2011
11:13 am
sfd 11:11 – guess I bought the BS hope-change bit too much. Thought he was a centrist. He’s clearly left of center, and pretty far left of center. He’s not a moderate. My mistake. Not to be repeated.
Del
February 21st, 2011
11:14 am
Doggone, where did you or Jay post quotes from union officials stating that the membership was willing to accept the reduction in benefits as proposed by Governor Walker?
Jimmy62
February 21st, 2011
11:15 am
All of you defending the Democrat reps for abandoning the jobs they were elected to do… have now lost the right to complain if the GOP shuts down Washington DC over the refusal of the Dems to make budget cuts. Or be branded hypocrites. But then most of you already are.
Jay
February 21st, 2011
11:15 am
Del, I did support my contention with quotes from the union leaders. Here’s another one, from the head of the teachers’ union:
“Money issues are off the table. Public employees have agreed to Gov. Walker’s pension and health care concessions, which he says will solve the budget challenge.”
Every news outlet in Wisconsin is reporting it the same way.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
11:16 am
“where did you or Jay post quotes from union officials stating that the membership was willing to accept the reduction in benefits as proposed by Governor Walke”
there’s this link at the bottom of every page of this blog titled “Show All” it greatly facilitates searching through the entire blog. Try it, you might like it.
Hillbilly Deluxe
February 21st, 2011
11:17 am
Jimmy62 @ 11:11
I’d be curious as to when and where that was. When I was working in a grocery store, even before I joined the union, I was making about 30% more than minimum wage, as a starrting salary. I may be older than you, though.
Definition of credible source
If a source agrees with your position, it’s credible. If a source doesn’t agree with your position, it isn’t credible. I’d say that holds true all across the political spectrum.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
11:17 am
“have now lost the right to complain if the GOP shuts down Washington DC over the refusal of the Dems to make budget cuts”
I don’t have any complaints if that happens, in fact I think it might be one of the best things they could do. Show their TRUE colors.
AmVet
February 21st, 2011
11:18 am
Sorry, jm, I’m not trying to embarrass you but you couldn’t be more wrong.
Here is how this is going to play out, or at least, generally does.
I’ll show everybody here EXACTLY where you jumped the shark.
And you will parse and conflate and spin and use a variety of logical fallacies in a failed effort at damage control
But if you want me to to through this exercise with you, I gladly will…
booger
February 21st, 2011
11:18 am
Jay has somehow managed to spin this debate to imply that lack of collective bargainning equals bad student performance. I would like to offer another potential cause of bad student performance. Maybe Jay could provide us with the racial makeup of the five states in question vs. that of Wisconsin.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
11:18 am
“Every news outlet in Wisconsin is reporting it the same way”
But JAY…you didn’t NAME that person! So it just can’t POSSIBLY be true, didn’t you know that? /snark
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
11:19 am
All of you defending the Democrat reps for abandoning the jobs they were elected to do… have now lost the right to complain if the GOP shuts down Washington DC over the refusal of the Dems to make budget cuts. Or be branded hypocrites. But then most of you already are.
The Party of No is unionized! Wow! And hypocrites too! Will wonders ever cease.
@@
February 21st, 2011
11:19 am
Personally, I think every state oughta duplicate California’s “Parent Trigger Law”. Teachers’ unions hate it when parents can organize against ‘em.
jm
February 21st, 2011
11:19 am
Jay, since you’re getting into the education statistical analysis industry, you should probably point out that Wisconsin is 90% white. And race is highly correlated with educational achievement, along with the education of the parents, the availability of reading in the house, etc.
Go control for those, go do a regression analysis, and come back with your analysis of collective bargaining and relative unionization in the 50 states and let me know your results.
Dave R.
February 21st, 2011
11:19 am
Even the libs on Morning Joe this morning admitted that collective bargaining has a long-term effect on budgets.
You’re losing this battle on the facts, boys and girls.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
11:20 am
“Jay has somehow managed to spin this debate to imply that lack of collective bargainning equals bad student performance”
Actually? No he didn’t. He showed the the presence of collective bargaing does NOT HURT student performance.
get out much?
February 21st, 2011
11:20 am
Just another reason why no one in their right mind should consider going into teaching as a profession.
RW-(the original)
February 21st, 2011
11:21 am
of course it is.
Funny how quickly it went from the glue that has held our Republic together to a Republican dirty trick as soon as the Democrats gained a majority, but for what it’s worth I don’t think it was ever meant for advice and consent and thus don’t support it for Presidential appointees regardless of the party affiliation of the President or whichever party holds the Senate majority.
Del
February 21st, 2011
11:21 am
Jay, post a link to those reports. Doggone says that you’ve posted them but I can’t find them.
jm
February 21st, 2011
11:21 am
“He showed the the presence of collective bargaing does NOT HURT student performance.”
No he didn’t.
jm
February 21st, 2011
11:22 am
And Amvet, Doggone’s 11:20 proves my point.
stands for decibels
February 21st, 2011
11:22 am
guess I bought the BS hope-change bit too much. Thought he was a centrist. He’s clearly left of center, and pretty far left of center. He’s not a moderate.
Please. you’re literate, you can suss out candidates’ positions, and you are well aware that Obama’s simply made good on as many of his campaign positions/promises as has been reasonably practical. There’s no flim-flammery here. You weren’t promised some Blue Dog and given Che Guevara instead.
He ran as a center-left Democrat – arguably the most conservative of the three still vying just before Super Tuesday (Edwards and Clinton being the other two), but still in his heart a progressive, who saw the merits in single-payer health insurance “if you were starting from scratch,” as he put it — and that’s how he’s governed.
(I think he’s been too damned willing to compromise, and too unwilling to attack conservative ideology head-on, but then again, I don’t have to run for re-election in 2012.)
Nice Guy
February 21st, 2011
11:22 am
“But JAY…you didn’t NAME that person! So it just can’t POSSIBLY be true, didn’t you know that? /snark”
Teh brown nosing. It burns. Oy.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
11:22 am
“Doggone says that you’ve posted them but I can’t find them.”
didn’t look very hard, did you. I posted a link.
stands for decibels
February 21st, 2011
11:23 am
but for what it’s worth I don’t think it was ever meant for advice and consent and thus don’t support it for Presidential appointees regardless of the party affiliation of the President or whichever party holds the Senate majority.
fair enough.
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
11:23 am
jm: “Thought he was a centrist. He’s clearly left of center, and pretty far left of center. He’s not a moderate. My mistake. Not to be repeated. ”
This indicates a flaw in your perception. Obama is a center right leader. Period. Everything that he’s done – from his health care bill which not only preserves power of private insurers but reinforces it, to his stimulus and kid-gloves treatment of Wall St (after all, his whole financial team consists of Wall St insiders) – exhibits a thoroughgoing agreement at a deep level with right wing / neoliberal policies of market absolutism and service to financial interests first and crumbs to the rest, lip service to public investment, deficits as the be-all/end-all, and so forth.
Obama’s infamous praise of Ronald Reagan during the campaign was a source of puzzlement for both left-wing and right-wing observers, both of them cynically assuming it was meant for purely rhetorical purposes, but what both camps failed to realize was just how sincerely he meant it. As was the case with Clinton before him, Obama loves nothing so much as to continue carrying out Reagan’s basic governing philosophy of tax-cutting, financial-interest privileging priorities.
AmVet
February 21st, 2011
11:24 am
jm
February 21st, 2011
10:52 am
Jay, your analysis would make a statistician vomit profusely into a toilet bowl. Followed by a bout of crying in despair, followed by a jump off a bridge.
Your analysis does absolutely nothing to prove, or disprove, the relevance of collective bargaining in education.
I have one question for you, jm.
Where exactly did he say that it did?
Again, you absurdly claim that JB says things he does not.
Adam
February 21st, 2011
11:25 am
jm: without a real mandate.
There is no such thing as a “real mandate.” Put it out of your mind. The majority doesn’t get to decide everything while completely ignoring the minority. The minority was still elected to office by different districts and so on. Those people want their interests represented too. Stop telling them to f*** off.
Jimmy62: And what happened? I got my money back, and did not join the union
Ultimately it sounds like a success story, although I do agree the union rep should have faced some consequences for that. Forging a signature is a crime IIRC.
Lying evil hypocrites, that’s been my every experience with private sector unions.
I can understand how one experience gives you no great love for unions and union reps. They’re not all like that, I can assure you. I’ve only ever been in a union once and there was never any pressure to be in it. To the contrary, there was CONSIDERABLE pressure from several of my employers never to join unions. One even subjected me to anti-union propaganada as part of my “training” and I bought into it and thought all unions were bad. I have evolved since then. Maybe you should consider that.
All of you defending the Democrat reps for abandoning the jobs they were elected to do… have now lost the right to complain if the GOP shuts down Washington DC over the refusal of the Dems to make budget cuts.
Nah, I say go for it. That will cause negative consequences for them. And it’s not like it’s unprecedented. It’s also not like they haven’t tried, in their small way, to cause government to be unable to do anything of any real importance. We complained when they did it, and now you complain when the Democrats in a state you don’t even inhabit use the rules against the majority. I think after 2 years of being obstructed, Democrats have earned the right to obstruct on a couple of key issues. So the guys in Wisconsin do this ONE TIME and you’re up in arms. It took over 60 filibusters before the left started going “Hey wait a second…”
Dave R is always good for a laugh: You’re losing this battle on the facts, boys and girls.
@@
February 21st, 2011
11:25 am
Every news outlet in Wisconsin is reporting it the same way.
Gallup–Sept. 2010: WASHINGTON, D.C. — For the fourth straight year, the majority of Americans say they have little or no trust in the mass media to report the news fully, accurately, and fairly. The 57% who now say this is a record high by one percentage point.
Lower-income Americans and those with less education are generally more likely to trust the media than are those with higher incomes and more education.
schnirt
Adam
February 21st, 2011
11:26 am
@@: Lower-income Americans and those with less education are generally more likely to trust the media than are those with higher incomes and more education.
I know at least one media corporation that COUNTS on that. And it works on my mom every time.
Del
February 21st, 2011
11:26 am
I wonder if Jay’s little alter ego’s could post a link to all these reports that the Unions accept the Governors cuts in benefits. I’m beginning to think that they really can’t so they only toss out half witted insults to cover their inadequacy.
Southern Comfort (B.P.O.I.B.W.)
February 21st, 2011
11:27 am
So one of the first things he did upon being elected (and this is a part time job in our county) was to put his entire family on the county insurance policy at a cost to taxpayers of $14,000+ a year.
HD, that there is sound fiscal prudence.
Mr. Snarky
February 21st, 2011
11:28 am
Now, if cutting taxes increases tax revenues, they why is Wisconsin having this budget deficit requiring these extreme measures when they just cut taxes for business? This seems inconsistent with Conservative economic theory. Hmmmmmm…
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
11:28 am
Clearly, the absence of collective bargaining did not help Georgia’s students. Or South Carolina or Texas…
Adam
February 21st, 2011
11:29 am
Del: Oh for God’s sake.
Doggone @ 9:59 and SoCo @ 10:29 are some good links to read. But that’s not even close to what you can find if you just GOOGLE IT
Rob
February 21st, 2011
11:31 am
You’re right.
This is about losing an election, and not “dealing with it,” to paraphrase what our illustrious president said after the 2008 election. Nice lesson to teach our children. If you don’t get your way, just hold your breath and stomp your feet until people give in to your demands.
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
11:31 am
Walker needs to go through with his threat to lay off 6000 or else be seen as a coward. Do it for the children.
Jay
February 21st, 2011
11:31 am
jm, bias is suggested by the author’s use of the term “militant teachers’ unions” in his abstract, a phrase that is a judgment in itself.
And as a critique of his 1987 analysis — published in the same journal you cite — points out:
“To our knowledge, Kurth is alone in suggesting that teachers unions have any influence over SAT scores. Exhaustive studies by the Congressional Budget Office (1986, 1987), which considered dozens of explanatory variables and hundreds of studies, failed to find any consideration of teachers unions.”
Their critique found:
“In a published comment on the Kurth article, Nelson and Gould (1988) demonstrate that the Kurth study has serious deficiencies in its methodology. These include a failure to establish a base relationship between test performance and the level of collective bargaining before Kurth postulated the increase in collective bargaining as a cause for the fall in test scores. There were numerous other problems in the methodology:
• Kurth misrepresented variations in SAT scores and failed to take into account the percentage of high school graduates taking the test in each state.
• His study used inconsistent and inappropriate timing factors (i.e. the lag time between initial unionization and that period of impact on student performance).
• The research included states with collective bargaining agreements in the block of non-union states.
• The research failed to include variables such as race and gender (factors that Powell and Steelman had found to be significant indicators of state performance levels in 1984).
• The research mistimed the lag effects of social changes such as family size, stability and levels of parent education. (Nelson and Gould, 1988).
Nelson and Gould corrected many of the problems in the Kurth analysis and found that “the results clearly indicate that collective bargaining is associated with higher SAT scores no matter what equation is used …” (Nelson and Gould, 1988).
Paulo977
February 21st, 2011
11:32 am
Granny ….you go go go .As a retired teacher myself and with a daughter teacher and grand kids in the Dekalb school system I have always groaned that we were ‘ABUSED’!!!
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
11:33 am
Republicans have union envy.
Southern Comfort (B.P.O.I.B.W.)
February 21st, 2011
11:34 am
Lying evil hypocrites, that’s been my every experience with private sector unions. And public sector ones shouldn’t even exist.
One experience with a jackass and you choose to paint everyone with a broad brush, and it’s supposed to be ok??? That’s a fu*king copout. I had a 18 year old WHITE GIRL kill my grandfather in a car accident that was all her fault. She didn’t even get a fu*king ticket for running the red light. Now, if I came on here and said I hate all white girls and they are all fu*king evil, you’d call me racist, wouldn’t you???
Outside the Perimeter
February 21st, 2011
11:36 am
there you go again Cynthia, damning the Right Wing for all that is wrong with Wisconxin. OOPS! Geez, I am at the point where I can no longer distinguish your rantings from those of C. Tucker (AKA: the Washington DC KOOK), so forgive me for that.
boy, it’s fun watching the thugs prance around with their signs. So clever, so thoghtful! No mean-spirits displayed there, by God. these are your next door neighbors so my advice to is is arm yourselves! The Union Thugs won’t stop now, it’s gonna be your earnings, your taxes from now on to pay for their “benefits.”
stands for decibels
February 21st, 2011
11:36 am
Walker needs to go through with his threat to lay off 6000 or else be seen as a coward.
Or, put another way…
Jay
February 21st, 2011
11:36 am
Del:
http://www.npr.org/2011/02/21/133932040/Wisconsin-Protests
http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=14068378
http://www.wypr.org/node/9553
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/21/us/21wisconsin.html
http://www.wkow.com/Global/story.asp?S=14066507
@@
February 21st, 2011
11:38 am
Adam:
Can I assume your Mom is a Republican? So what are you saying….she’s not too bright. That’s not nice.
A new Pew Research Center study provides evidence that Republican voters are smarter about current affairs, issues and news.
Enough of jay’s re-heated hash for me.
I’m out.
John Ellison
February 21st, 2011
11:38 am
Teachers Union: Give us a raise and more benefits, then we’ll bring out the votes to get you re-elected.
State Democrat Rep: Sure, I”ll vote to give you whatever you want, the taxpayers will pay for it and I get re-elected. What else can I do for you?
Teachers Union: Be sure to vote against school choice. We don’t want parents to send their kids to better schools and make us look bad.
State Democrat Rep: No problem.
Sloppy Joe
February 21st, 2011
11:39 am
Everybody following this issue should be aware of the following—
When this Republican Governor of Wisconsin was inaugurated in January, he inherited a balanced budget from his Democratic predecessor. Upon taking office, Governor Walker immediately called a special session of the legislature primarily to cut corporate taxes. These tax cuts caused the deficit that Wisconsin is suddenly facing. Walker and his Republican allies are now trying to plug the hole they created by taking it out the compensation of teachers and other public employees.
Given this background, the unions were generous to make the short-term financial concessions that they’ve offered. Personally, I don’t think teachers and other middle class workers should have to take money out of their wallets to pay for tax cuts for corporations. But that’s exactly what they’ve offered to do here.
aps
February 21st, 2011
11:40 am
Only a lib like AmVet could take a basic union discussion about Wisconsin and bring the Bush administration into it. What a tool!! Please stay on the subject before your head explodes.
Adam
February 21st, 2011
11:40 am
@@: Well we’re all ignorant on different subjects. She does have a Bachelor of Arts… in Art. She’s great at Art. Politics and left brain stuff is just not as much in her reach. Nothing wrong with that, but she’s got this visceral anti-Obama anti-Democrat thing going on that didn’t exist before Fox News started spouting it. She fell for it, hook, line, and sinker. So yeah, I call it like I see it.
jack bull
February 21st, 2011
11:40 am
for some reason, this comes to mind….”if i can’t get my way, i’ll take my toys somewhere else and play”
Donovan
February 21st, 2011
11:41 am
No matter how you slice it, Democrats will forever try to convince you that unions are there to protect you from the evil minded Republicans and their management professionals. Whenever unions are threatened with initiatives to weaken their control, out come the thugs, the “community organizers”(activists), the hateful placards, the threat of “work stoppages”(strikes), and mobilization of Democrat followers (Jay’s legion of loyal supporters). History has shown us that unions had a relative place early in the Machine Age, but it morphed into such a destructive blood sucking beast that has ruined economies and looted capitalism of its greatness. Unions are the vehicle for those who wish to earn more money than non-union jobs by working under the protective umbrella of legalized extortion (strikes). Therefore, no ships can be unloaded unless unions unload them, No airlines can be flown unless unions fly them. No cars can be produced unless unions produce them. No buildings can be built unless unions build them. No casinos can be run unless unions run them. No restaurants can serve food unless unions serve the food. And on and on and on it goes. Have you ever sat on a plane in Rome for 3 hours until the union gets its demands fulfilled? The treat of a strike is a disgusting tool that has led to the ruination of good companies. It’s ultimate conclusion has led to bankrupting cities, states, school systems, airlines, auto industries, carpet industries, and virtually all forms of businesses and governments that produce anything of value. Is it any wonder why we have to outsource everything to earn a profit now? Every large metropolitan city in this country run by Democrats and their allied unions are failing entities. Wisconsin has one of the largest public unionized work employment system (300,000 +) in this county and it has bankrupted the state. The governor does not have the money to continue on this ruinous policy of union contol. In essence, his efforts will save jobs and lower the deficit that is strangling the state. However, what we see is the typical and reactionary behavior of selfish people living off the largesse of the taxpayers. Entitlements are always hard to let go. Union employees are so used to contributing very little into their health and pension plans that it creates dire consequences when changes are required. Those people who voted for the Republican mandate in Wisconsin last Fall apparently are not in agreement with the minority of those demanding so much. The common sense rationalization of the ‘demerits’ of uionnization will fall on the deaf ears of Jay’s legion of liberals. They will always preach the ‘merits’ of job protectionism, emlpoyment diversity, and unfair employment termination as the banner of righteousness, but in the end its all about money for themselves. The unions on the otherhand are worried about any slip in dues membership that might come as a result of any change to their way of business.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
11:41 am
“Please stay on the subject before your head explodes.”
this isn’t YOUR blog and YOU do not set the rules for it
carlosgvv
February 21st, 2011
11:42 am
This is typical Tea-Party mentality, namely, we are absolutely right and you who oppose us must be absolutely wrong so, since we have the power, we will grind you under. I did not realize there were so many mindless voters in Wisconsin.
Del
February 21st, 2011
11:42 am
Adam, Mark Miller one of the democrats in hiding didn’t say emphatically that the union and the membership would accept the reduction in benefits. he couldn’t speak for them anyway@10:29. Bell only stated that the union membership would “do their fair share”.whatever that means.@9:59 You’ll have to come up with better than that as that doesn’t prove Jay’s comment.That’s just union double speak for those who haven’t been around too long or who’ve chosen not to understand it.
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
11:43 am
Rob 11:31: “Nice lesson to teach our children. If you don’t get your way, just hold your breath and stomp your feet until people give in to your demands.”
You actually have the gall to lecture the Democratic side about accepting the results of elections when it is precisely the anti-Obama side which engages in all manner of smear and paranoid theorizing about birth certificates and secret Muslim anti-Americanism, etc. That insinuation clearly qualifies as the laugher of the day so far in a never un-crowded field.
stands for decibels
February 21st, 2011
11:43 am
Republicans have union envy.
Actually, I think it’s more like they’re trying to generate what would be more accurately termed job security envy. They figure we are at a kind of tipping point where the public is basically divided on approving/disapproving of the very concept of organized labor, and they are trying mightily to convert understandable fear as among the working class over their own insecurity, into resentment for those perceived to actually have job security (setting aside the obvious fact that public sector employees, even unionized ones, get laid off too.)
In other words: Classic wedge-issue politics.
anyway, gotta go back to producin’. Don’t wedge anyone while I’m away.
Southern Comfort (B.P.O.I.B.W.)
February 21st, 2011
11:44 am
Teachers unionChamber of Commerce: Give us araisetax cuts and morebenefitsloopholes, then we’ll bring out the votes to get you re-elected.State
DemocratRepublican Rep: Sure, I”ll vote to give you whatever you want, the taxpayers will pay for it and I get re-elected. What else can I do for you?Teachers unionChamber of Commerce: Be sure to vote againstschool choiceworker benefits. We don’t wantparents to send their kids to better schoolsworkers to take our profits like they actually worked to earn them and make uslook badprofit less.State
DemocratRepublican Rep: No problem.John, looked like you made a few errors on your essay. Thought I’d help clear them up a bit. I don’t have red ink like a teacher, but I’m sure you get the point. Your little dialogue goes on from both sides of the political spectrum. Only the names and places change.
Adam
February 21st, 2011
11:47 am
Donovan: Democrats will forever try to convince you that unions are there to protect you from the evil minded Republicans and their management professionals
Actually, I think many unions are only trying to protect workers from corporate interests which seek to minimize a worker into a number or some faceless drone. Unions are an added protection against things like getting fired for “no reason, or any reason at all.” I therefore do not think the concept is bad. A few bad apples exist, but they don’t poison the bunch, as I said before.
So it’s not about Republicans EXCEPT that Republicans today seem to be fervently anti-union for no other reason than they just hate unions. There’s no real logic to it. It’s just ideology. Making excuses like some unions do this, or some people do that, or corporations and employers are ALWAYS fair and never take advantage… I mean come on.
AmVet
February 21st, 2011
11:47 am
Just for the reading challenged aps, Lamp and I were discussing one of your slimy heroes, Ronald Dumsfeld.
Can you even follow a basic thread? There are almost always side topics being discussed here.
And it was Jimmy at 10:17 who referenced GXB by name. No one else.
I guess you “missed” that, huh?
But just for you. (Cuz YOU bring so much to the discussion table.)
When in doubt, stick with the aps play book.
Misrepresent, misquote, cherry pick, and provide no relevant data to the topic at hand that can be confirmed.
And discount out of hand, any that is…
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
11:48 am
“Democrats will forever try to convince you that unions are there to protect you from the evil minded Republicans and their management professionals”
Nope. Unions exist to help protect workers from exploitive employers. That you seem to be equating those exploitive employers with Republicans is very telling.
AmVet
February 21st, 2011
11:48 am
Doggone, he/she is just another frustrated drive by dolt…
RW-(the original)
February 21st, 2011
11:49 am
Sloppy Joe must get his “news” from MSNBC and doesn’t know that both Maddow and Schultz’s claims of that Wisconsin balanced budget have received the polit-i-fact munchkin rating of not just merely false but really quite sincerely false.
The forest beckons and I hope for SoCo’s sake that by the time I get back Jay B hasn’t instituted one of those Wisconsin rules about tricking the censor.
Later y’all.
Dave R.
February 21st, 2011
11:49 am
“When this Republican Governor of Wisconsin was inaugurated in January, he inherited a balanced budget from his Democratic predecessor.”
How many times will this lie be repeated?
Adam
February 21st, 2011
11:49 am
Del: You argument at 11:42 is effectively moving of the goal posts, with a technicality that you have covered your a** by saying you would only listen to credible sources, which can be defined any way you like from that point forward. In essence, what you are saying is that you don’t believe it and no amount of evidence is good enough. And you haven’t even bothered to try to tell Jay that ALL FIVE of his links in his 11:36 are wrong. I do appreciate you going back and actually looking at the links though.
AmVet
February 21st, 2011
11:51 am
Not the evil card again.
Jeez…
Uhoh
February 21st, 2011
11:53 am
He won!
Del
February 21st, 2011
11:53 am
Jay, until such time as the Democrats come out of hiding and return to the state capitol and begin debating this issue along with state employees returning to work all these reports “attributed to Bell” and referencing union leaders who say this while really meaning that aren’t conclusive of anything. I’ve been around for awhile.
Mike C
February 21st, 2011
11:53 am
this is an excellent article.
jm
February 21st, 2011
11:56 am
Jay 11:31 – fair enough. I look forward to someone doing some actual up to date research. NY rubber-room anecdotes included, I have a hard time believing unionization improves education performance. Anyway, in the meantime, can we not further mis-educate the populace with overly simplistic analysis?….
Ok, gotta get a ton of stuff done, so I’m out.
RW-(the original)
February 21st, 2011
11:58 am
Del,
You might want to give this a look It appears that this “reaching out for compromise” is just trying to get a second bite at the cheese wheel.
In this case, the issue was debated in the campaign, and voters chose Scott Walker as governor by a significant margin in part because he promised to bring spending and unions under control. The unions made this point clear in their campaign advertising, and still lost not just the race but both chambers of the legislature. Now that the legislature has been seated, the majority controls the agenda and can send bills to the floor — for the debate that Miller professes to want, followed by a vote.
That’s how representative democracy works. If the Democrats want a compromise bill, then they need to show up in the legislature to find enough Republicans to vote down Walker’s proposal in favor of an alternative. If the majority wants Walker’s bill, well, that’s the consequence of losing an election. If that doesn’t represent the wishes of Wisconsin voters, Democrats can run in the next election on the promise to restore the closed shop and full collective bargaining rights to unions that have run the state for decades, and see how popular that makes them.
This time I’m really leaving.
poison pen
February 21st, 2011
11:59 am
Wow! it wasn’t bad enough that Upchuck corrected everyones posts now we have SOCO doing it.
SoCo, while I feel sorry for your loss, your family must of had a terrible Lawyer if you didn’t get justice.
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
12:00 pm
Why do Republicans give themselves wedgies.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
12:00 pm
“until such time as the Democrats come out of hiding and return to the state capitol and begin debating this issue ”
If they come back there will not BE a debate. All it would take is for ONE Democrat to answer “Here” in the legislature and they will have a quorum. They will vote and pass the bill. No debate.
poison pen
February 21st, 2011
12:02 pm
RW, good write, I may also add that the Majority of peole in the U.S. didn’t want Obamacare but the Dems shoved it down out throats. If you want change then you will just have to vote for it.
Sloppy Joe
February 21st, 2011
12:03 pm
P.S. to my 11:39 post:
Wisconsin Governor Walker is a corporate funded politician, wholly-owned and operated by the likes of Koch Industries.
What’s happening in Wisconsin is one example of what happens when the five so-called originalists on the Supreme Court, via the Citizens United case, decided the management of corporations can use unlimited corporate funds to influence our elections. This is what happens when corporations are given Constitutional rights that the founders never, ever intended.This is what happens when we equate money with speech, such that those with the most money have the most speech.
According to the Supreme Court, if you buy Brawny Paper Towels at Publix, then you choose for the people who manage the company that makes those papers towels, the Koch brothers, to speak on your behalf in the public sphere. If you buy stock in a company through your 401(k) mutual fund or your IRA mutual fund—you probably don’t even know the names of the companies that your mutual fund owns—then you’ve given the CEO of those companies the power to speak on your behalf in the public sphere.
If you’re a Republican, you don’t have to worry about contributing to the party or your favorite candidates. Shopping and investing is all the you need do. Because the Republican Party speaks entirely for the vast majority of large corporations where you shop and where your mutual fund investments are made.
If your ideology is to enrich the rich at the expense of the poor and the middle class, then you’re covered. If Ayn Rand’s “The Virtue of Selfishness” is the direction that you want to see our country go in, then the Supreme Court has taken care of that for you.
Congratulations!
poison pen
February 21st, 2011
12:04 pm
Taxpayer, I think they do it so the Dems can kiss both cheeks.
Del
February 21st, 2011
12:04 pm
Adam, I don’t see where I’ve moved any goal posts and I have no reason to cover anything that I’ve said. I’m saying, now listen up, that no one has provided creditable proof that the unions and their membership are truly willing to accept the reduction in benefits as stipulated by Governor Walker. We’re only seeing Jay’s opinion on his apparent interpretation from what he’s read that they are willing and that doesn’t make it so. Until the workers return to their jobs and the Wisconsin Democrats return to theirs we don’t really know for certain.
WOODSTOCK MIKE
February 21st, 2011
12:05 pm
“Under the bill, the unions could not bargain over anything but wages, would have to hold annual elections to keep their organizations intact and would lose the ability to have union dues deducted from state paychecks. Employees would no longer have to automatically pay union dues, but could choose whether they want to do so.”
Above is the reason that Jay Bookman says the strikes are happening. Hmmm…. They can collectively bargain over wages which is obviously the major part of collective bargaining. The other pieces seem meaningless.
Come on, we all know the reason they are striking. Because they were actually asked to contribute to their own insurance and retirements. Sorry, I do not feel any sympathy towards them and they should be ashamed of themselves.
Are their really people out there who agree with these morons?? They are making fools of themselves in front of the entire country.
And elected officials leaving the state, talk about a temper tantrum, they should all be fired.
Shell
February 21st, 2011
12:05 pm
“You’re acting like unions are mafias, and that’s just not the case. They don’t go around breaking people’s legs for not voting their way.”
Yes it is, and yes they do. it starts as subtle harassment and being ostracized and stops there if you don’t rock the boat any more than to refuse to join. If you actively campaign against the union though, you’re liable to get roughed up, beat up, or your legs broken. Don’t just take my word for it, talk to anti-union activists and you’ll learn this for yourself.
The main problem I have with unions is their insistence on solidarity amongst members *no matter what*. It is next to impossible to fire a union member regardless of transgression.
Secondarily is their insistence on more and bigger slices of the pie *no matter the consequences to the company*.
extremerightwing
February 21st, 2011
12:06 pm
Jay, these employees still have a say in their professions just as you and I do every year. If our employer says we are changing the pay structure or benefits to X you have a choice: Accept it and keep working or reject it and search for new job.
The core issue on this whole thing is that dims and the unions see one of their last bastions of support being dismantled and they are scared to death.
What is wrong with not having the union dues, aka protection money or contribution to the dimorat party, not automatically withdrawn. Sounds like the unions are afraid folks might not cough up the cash. Guess it’s time to send in the SEIU thugs! Do you want it in the knee or the gut?
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
12:07 pm
poison pen
February 21st, 2011
12:04 pm
Taxpayer, I think they do it so the Dems can kiss both cheeks.
How long will the Republicans hold that pose, waiting for that kiss.
83jacket
February 21st, 2011
12:09 pm
This is how the cycle works: Public Sector Unions give 99% of contributions to Democrooks. Democrooks don’t bargain with Public Sector Unions on behalf of the tax payers because they are beholden to Public Sector Unions. Tax payers get screwed. every three years repeat cylce.
Darwin
February 21st, 2011
12:09 pm
Genius of the Repub party. I wonder how many of these state workers voted for the newly elected govenor? Reminds me of the air traffic controllers who voted for Reagan. It’s never me is it?
WOODSTOCK MIKE
February 21st, 2011
12:11 pm
Does anyone out there feel sympathy for the morons in Wisconsin who are striking?? If so, please tell me one reason that you believe they are doing the right thing…
Cuts needed to be made, this article by Bookman is a complete lie. They are striking because they don’t feel like contributing to their health insurance or retirement.
Read the picket signs in the crowds…
Bookman is a moron.
Del
February 21st, 2011
12:11 pm
RW, That’s correct…the Democrats need to get back to the capitol present their case before the vote and the union workers need to go back to their jobs. Until such time, neither the Democrats nor the Unions have credibility in anything they say. Work to do…later
Jefferson
February 21st, 2011
12:12 pm
If they need money, they should raise taxes.
Paulo977
February 21st, 2011
12:13 pm
Mary E …”Only after NYC teachers struck for higher pay in the 1960s were they given decent wages, but more importantly, they were finally afforded respect”…This is really conflictual for many teachers who are truly committed to their “vocation” BUT sometimes the realization that the result of an action could bring about greater good should take precedence!!
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
12:14 pm
“Because they were actually asked to contribute to their own insurance and retirements”
Haven’t been keeping up with the conversation, I see.
George P. Burdell
February 21st, 2011
12:15 pm
Jay, I’m still trying to digest how Virginia is at the national average but Wisconsin does very well. Are we looking at the same data you put in the article?
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
12:15 pm
Krugman makes a shrewd observation in his column today about what may have been the most fatal error in Walker’s overreaching:
But Mr. Walker isn’t interested in making a deal. Partly that’s because he doesn’t want to share the sacrifice: even as he proclaims that Wisconsin faces a terrible fiscal crisis, he has been pushing through tax cuts that make the deficit worse. Mainly, however, he has made it clear that rather than bargaining with workers, he wants to end workers’ ability to bargain.
The bill that has inspired the demonstrations would strip away collective bargaining rights for many of the state’s workers, in effect busting public-employee unions. Tellingly, some workers — namely, those who tend to be Republican-leaning — are exempted from the ban; it’s as if Mr. Walker were flaunting the political nature of his actions.
Kamchak
February 21st, 2011
12:17 pm
…but the Dems shoved it down out throats.
I have found that those who complain the most about having something shoved down their throats are the same one’s who will swallow anything.
buck@gon
February 21st, 2011
12:17 pm
One does not need to read the whole article to see the flaw in this “logic.” The headline is enough.
Despite the incontrovertible fact that the WI governor ran on the very thing he is doing right now; despite the fact the whole nation is awakened to spending and government waste now; despite that fact that every politician since Wilson has solemnly vowed to rid our system of corrupt government waste, including President Obama; despite the indisputible fact that government employees very often have a highly subsidized set of bennies, what we hear today is the same old Washington-man-Jay tapdance: that is, “don’t pay attention to the man behind the curtain. There’s nothing to see here folks. –just conservatives targeting their favorite victims.
What WMJ won’t remind anyone is that when there is nothing to see, Democrats leave the state so that they won’t face reality, the vote or the voters. This is an illegal and heinous activity by Democrat leaders–though we have come to find that there is really no such thing. All Democrats are (and WMJ, I mean YOU) becoming is community organizers who bring their latest prop in front of cameras to get the spending (and high taxes) they want.
To paraphrase the great Dear Leader of our country. “We won (John), elections have consequences.” It’s time for Democrats to take the smackdown that is coming and will be coming for years to come as long as they engage in this type of activity–union bullying and illegal legislative abdication of duty. Speaking of abdication, isn’t that what Dems in Washington have done? –walked away from even passing a budget last year?
Dems aren’t leaders. They are excuse makers and children.
What is interesting to note for Wisconsin teachers supposedly concerned with their own salaries and benefits is that on average they are making less than teachers in Georgia (who are not unionized). Maybe we should tell them the water is better down here because obviously, the union has already failed them.
WOODSTOCK MIKE
February 21st, 2011
12:17 pm
The #1 reason there are unions is too make sure employees do not get screwed by their employers. Wages are the #1 reason that unions exist. Unions are created to make sure employers can’t take advatage of employees. Take a look at the NFL players union, everything is about the money. Jay Bookman is trying to spin this and if you believe it for one second you are incredibly naive!!
The unions in Wisconsin will still be able to collectively bargain wages. The other pieces are a small part of the pie.
jm
February 21st, 2011
12:18 pm
Jay 11:31 – 2 other things. I’ll do some more research on this issue if / when I can get the time.
Second, when I found that using Google, I obviously didn’t do a search on “militant unionization”, rather just, education, unions, etc.
Given that links that point to another source drive Google’s search engine, if this was a biased research article, it leads one to believe the biased conservatives are driving the Google search results. who know.s
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
12:19 pm
Bookman is a moron.
Like that scene in Iron Man where a man fires on the iron man at close range only to fall immediately to the ground from the ricocheting bullet.
Turn off the Fox News and the WGST, Mike and learn something.
Sloppy Joe
February 21st, 2011
12:19 pm
RW@11:49,
I stand corrected. Wilson’s corporate tax cuts, projected to cost the state $140 million in tax revenue, don’t take effect until July.
WOODSTOCK MIKE
February 21st, 2011
12:21 pm
@Doggone/GA
Please explain the conversation. Do you actually believe they are striking because they would have to hold annual elections or that they are going to lose the ability to deduct union dues from their paychecks??
RB from Gwinnett
February 21st, 2011
12:21 pm
“The numbers above might be a little misleading…”
That sure wouldn’t stop you from posting them though would it Jay? The truth is in Wisconsin, only 4% of their students took the SAT in 2010. In GA, that number is 74%. If you plot participation rate against average score, you’ll see there is a direct correlation. It would also suggest the strategy for moving GA off the bottom of that list would be to prevent average and below students from taking the test.
There’s not a single state in the top 20 with more than 20% taking the test.
The difference in Georgia’s score an the no. 30 state is less than 100 pts. Not a single one of you can tell me if you had scored 100 pts higher on your SAT you would be in a better place in life for it. Made more money, graduated from a better school…
WOODSTOCK MIKE
February 21st, 2011
12:22 pm
@Left Wing Management
Please explain why they are strking…
Dont watch Fox News, where can I go to learn?
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
12:24 pm
“Tellingly, some workers — namely, those who tend to be Republican-leaning — are exempted from the ban”
yes, that’s what put me solidly on the side of the unions…especially as even those excempted unions are joining in the demonstrations
Richard Sanders
February 21st, 2011
12:25 pm
Nice try, but I’m sure the absence or presence of collective bargaining is not the ONLY factor that plays into those test scores. Unions have hurt the industry of this country and I don’t want to pay too much for an American car because I have to pay a$$hole tax for the guys in the Job Banks who are being paid to sit around and play Xbox. Unions had their place, now they’re only hurting America. Bye bye unions.
AmVet
February 21st, 2011
12:25 pm
This is how the cycle works: Public Sector Unions give 99% of contributions to Democrooks.
Incorrect.
But one would need to know how to do basic research, and I fear that leaves 83 out in the cold.
(If you ask real nice, I’ll give you the real number, instead of your made up one though.)
BTW, that total amount is DWARFED by the amount given by the US Chamber of Commerce to the GOP.
And then there is this;
From PoliticalMoneyLine.com, here’s a list of those corporations [PAC'S] that exclusively, or nearly so(90-100%), support only the Republican Party over the Democratic Party in financial contributions:Phillips Int’l. (100%), Cooper Industries (100%), Flowers Industries (100%), Harris Corp. (98%), Illinois Toolworks (97%), Outback Steakhouse (96%), ExxonMobil (96%), National City Corp. (95%), Wendy’s Int’ l. (93%), Anadarko Petroleum (92%), Timken Corp. (91%), Halliburton (91%), Meadwestvaco Corp (90%), Darden Restaurants Inc. (90%), Branch Banking & Trust Co (90%), and Int’l Paper (90%).Here’s a few more in the 80-90% range:
CATERPILLAR 89%
J.C.PENNEY CORP. INC. 89%
GOODYEAR TIRE 89%
CONOCOPHILLIPS SPIRIT 89%
SMITHFIELD FOODS INC 88%
CHEVRONTEXACO 87%
FORD MOTOR COMPANY 84%
CIGNA CORPORATION 83%
OWENS CORNING 83%
CONAGRA FOODS 83%
HOME DEPOT INC. 81%
BAXTER HEALTHCARE CORPORATION 81%
3M COMPANY 80%
See, if we had a Democratic Party leadership with some steel for action to change the status quo, they’d come out with a PR asking Democratic Party voters to stop going to Wendy’s if they are going to only contribute to Republicans. Instead, we get the likes that are grateful for the 7% in crumbs, which is good enough to buy off their silence.
Overall, the list of Corporations that give more than 50% of their contributions to the Republican Party numbers 254. On the Democratic side? There is only one Corp. that gives above 60% to the Democratic Party, CableVisions Systems at 78%, and 22 others in the 50-59% range. It’s a 10:1 ratio in the number of corporations favoring Republicans over Democrats, but for the actual money, it’s much higher, 25:1 or greater.
So cry me a red corporatocracy river…
Memphis11Gate
February 21st, 2011
12:25 pm
Jay, this one is easy, the governor should put on a ballot for the voters to decide if Wisconsin should allow unions for government employees. Put up all statistics of public and private benefits, salary, and the cost of long term pension cost, and let the voters decide. I do not unions especially government unions because l believe the government have rules and regulations the make them unnecessary. Also, someone posted government jobs are not outsources, yes they are, they are contracted out and some services are off-shored.
Government employees have to understand you have no right to a job, and if tax revenues are low, you may have to go.
Rafe Hollister
February 21st, 2011
12:25 pm
Unions in the private sector regulate themselves, either they moderate their demands or put themselves out of a job, like the UAW or the Steel workers.
Public sector unions are an abomination in that there is no competition or way to regulate them. They either strike and shut down the government or you yield to their demands. FDR was mostly wrong, but on this issue he was correct.
ronald
February 21st, 2011
12:26 pm
Shame on you, Jay for trying to imply that states labor unions somehow have an effect on standardized test scores in that state. Thats about as absurd as me suggesting that the states with higher scores also have higher % of caucasion students, while the states with lower scores have higher % of black students..
Dave R.
February 21st, 2011
12:26 pm
“Tellingly, some workers — namely, those who tend to be Republican-leaning — are exempted from the ban; it’s as if Mr. Walker were flaunting the political nature of his actions.”
Or maybe that overblown tool Krugman doesn’t realize, as Gov. Walker does, that public safety personnel are different than non-public safety presonnel.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
12:26 pm
“Do you actually believe they are striking because they would have to hold annual elections or that they are going to lose the ability to deduct union dues from their paychecks??”
yes, that and losing their collective bargaining rights. It’s straightforward union busting, and the fact that even the EXEMPT unions are joining is shows that I’m not the only one who knows that.
barking frog
February 21st, 2011
12:26 pm
Unions are groups of people that unite to advance their
lifestyle, just like companies or corporations….
ronald
February 21st, 2011
12:27 pm
I think that if Wisconsin teachers refuse to work (keep in mind they are paid by taxpayers), then the revenue from their property taxes should be re-apportioned to states where the teachers show up for work and actually teach kids.
Normal
February 21st, 2011
12:29 pm
Del,
I know you are better than you are showing…just because you don’t like it, doesn’t mean it’s not true.
—————–
Woodstock Mike,
Hang around the Right Wing Cafe much?
jm
February 21st, 2011
12:30 pm
unions. just another special interest
Darko
February 21st, 2011
12:30 pm
The left loves goverment agencies.
The left loves labor unions because they “protect” the workers.
Why does the left believe workers need “protection” from the government agencies the left have created and love?
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
12:30 pm
Rafe: “Public sector unions are an abomination in that there is no competition or way to regulate them. They either strike and shut down the government or you yield to their demands. FDR was mostly wrong, but on this issue he was correct.”
Nope. FDR was mostly right, but on this he was wrong.
Richard Sanders; “Unions had their place, now they’re only hurting America. Bye bye unions.”
Wrong. Should be: Welcome back unions.
ronald
February 21st, 2011
12:30 pm
And BOO HOO HOO that the poor old teachers have to pay HALF of thier pension contributions. Cry me a river…….. Why are taxpayers paying ANYTHING for pensions for teachers. Let them have 401ks like everyone else. I never knew teachers could be MORE GREEDY than businessmen at public corporations.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
12:30 pm
“then the revenue from their property taxes should be re-apportioned to states ”
can’t be done. STATE taxes are not a federal tax.
Brent
February 21st, 2011
12:32 pm
Jay,
Without getting into the substance of the article, I think the graph that you use as the basis for you point is terribly misleading. You can’t use national education rankings as the result of unionizing. Of all the things that go into national education rankings, I imagine the union status of the teachers is way down on the list of the most determining factors. By ignoring all the other factors in play, the graph simply doesn’t tell us anything useful. Of course Georgia and South Carolina have low educational rankings scores, we all know this, but it has very little to do with the state of organized labor in those states. Are you honestly suggesting Wisconsin would fall from #2 nationally in education to below average if it makes unionizing illegal?
It is difficult to discuss much else about this article when the statistics you used were so off base, and fail to isolate out the criteria you are discussing.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
12:32 pm
“Why does the left believe workers need “protection” from the government agencies the left have created and love?”
Because “agencies” are run by PEOPLE
Jefferson
February 21st, 2011
12:33 pm
Seems things are worse than better, so why is this the right approach ?
Darwin
February 21st, 2011
12:34 pm
Funny that if this was just about the budget, the govenor would sit down and try to negotiate a settlement. Instead, it’s all about collective bargaining. It’s funny in Washington, where the Repubs can only cut from the EPA and other regulatory agencies to tackle the budget deficit. They can only cut programs for the poor, public television, volunteer programs, the arts…. They don’t seem interested in tackling those programs, SS, Medicare/Medicaid, Defense Spending, that really contribute to spending. Which evryone agrees on. So, it’s not so funny when we begin to wonder if the Repubs don’t have a secret agenda that has nothing to do with spending. Think about it.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
12:34 pm
“Of all the things that go into national education rankings, I imagine the union status of the teachers is way down on the list of the most determining factors.”
Ummmm…THAT was the point, that union status does not HARM student test scores
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
12:35 pm
Woodstock Mike: “Please explain why they are strking…”
They’re striking because they know an attack on the life and blood of unions when they see one.
The governor is acting on behalf of a rapacious finance-driven power ideology that knows the only remaining obstacle to across-the-boards dominance for its side in this country is to break the back of unions once and for all. With private unions weakened, that means all they have to do is gut the public unions and they’re virtually ensured victory. Well thanks to Mr. Walker, looks like it’s not going to go as smoothly as they thought.
jm
February 21st, 2011
12:35 pm
unions and the scardeycrats that ran away are the US mubareks. anti-democratic process
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
12:36 pm
“They don’t seem interested in tackling those programs, SS, Medicare/Medicaid, Defense Spending, that really contribute to spending”
SS does not contribute to the deficit or the debt, but otherwise…good points!
Norman Thomson
February 21st, 2011
12:36 pm
Having grown up in WI, it sickens me where the State has gone with its new Governor and Senator. It reminds me of the very early days in school when we studied the bull-headed Republican days of Joseph McCarthy and everybody who wasn’t like him such as union members was a Commie. WI and GA rednecks are of the same cloak – ignorant. Thank you for this insightful article, Jay Bookman
John
February 21st, 2011
12:36 pm
Why is a public union necessary? I don’t understand why a government employee needs a union. Do the union supporters contend that without a union the government would trample their rights? I thought the government was the ultimate fair employer, no? If you’re so unhappy, just get a job in the private sector where you have to pay for your own healthcare and fund your own retirement like I do. Why should my hard earned income be taxed so that government employees get paid more than me, not because they work harder than me (they don’t), but because of the result of union threats and acts?
Have you actually seen the argument in WI? The union is protesting because they are being asked to fund but only a portion of their healthcare and pension. My ears are deaf to that kind of complaint. What happened to the concept of self responsibility? In WWII, everybody sacrificed. Nowadays, it’s all about entitlements. What part of the following sentence do the union supporters not understand: “the state is broke.” Why is the world should I be taxed even more just so these people don”t have to fund their own healthcare and pension?
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
12:37 pm
ronald : “Let them have 401ks like everyone else.”
Turn off the Fox News and WGST and learn something for a change will ya.
And put away those big plastic yellow shoes while you’re at it.
Paulo977
February 21st, 2011
12:38 pm
Doggone..”It’s straightforward union busting, and the fact that even the EXEMPT unions are joining is shows that I’m not the only one who knows that” THAT IS CRYSTAL CLEAR!!
DaWG
February 21st, 2011
12:38 pm
If we follow your logic, then AL, MS and KY should be in the top half of all 50 states since they allow CB for teachers union. OOPS, wonder what happened there??
Southern Comfort (B.P.O.I.B.W.)
February 21st, 2011
12:38 pm
SoCo, while I feel sorry for your loss, your family must of had a terrible Lawyer if you didn’t get justice.
We had the then Assistant District Attorney, who is now the DA. Kinda telling that he’s “Tough on Crime” now, but 10 years ago, he wasn’t…..
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
12:38 pm
“union is protesting because they are being asked to fund but only a portion of their healthcare and pension.”
I can see that YOU are not keeping up with the conversation either. The unions have conceded they will accept the wage and benefits changes if the gutting of collective bargaining rights is removed. The governor has, so far, refused that offer.
Joe the Plutocrat
February 21st, 2011
12:39 pm
what cracks me up about this mess is the fact that politicians are pointing fingers at “unions”. but for the sake of arguments, let’s say the GOP governor’s approach is valid; why stop at the teacher’s union? so yeah, maybe CBA’s are the root of all evil, is not the legislative branch of any government a ‘collective bargaining’ agent for citizens? let’s have the lawmakers and politicos ‘give back $300 million. in fact (as I suggested on CT’s blog), why not “privatize” the lawmaking process? why not replace elected officials with “elected” consultants (1099). pay them a per diem for the time they are “in session” and get rid of pensions, health insurance, etc.? if this mess is due to a previous CBA, it needs to be resolved via a new CBA, or as with lawmakers, make EVERY teacher on the public payroll a non-emplyee “contractor” and pay them $25/hour ($52,000/year). no perqs, no health insurance (let them shop the private sector like the rest of us). ditto police officers, firemen, bus drivers, sanitation workers…
Confused
February 21st, 2011
12:41 pm
I beg my conservative brethen to not lose sight of the facts that led to the most recent financial ruin since the great depression and latch onto the daily blowhards on talk radio who do not have your best interest in mind and try to distort, deflect and cast blame on the powerless, the poor, unions, gays, illegal immigrants, and people who bought homes but couldn’t afford them and you rush out and fling yourselves back into the arms of the lover who spurned you. You’re angry and have every right to your anger, but do not fight while blindfolded. And for the history revionists/Bush apologists can you say “Curveball”?
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
12:41 pm
“what cracks me up about this mess is the fact that politicians are pointing fingers at “unions”. ”
and what is even more amusing is that they shot even THAT in the foot by exempting the unions that supported Walker’s campaign for governor.
WOODSTOCK MIKE
February 21st, 2011
12:43 pm
@Left Wing Management
So if the unions would still be able to bargain for wages, what other areas do you think are so important that they need to be collectively bargained for??
In what way does the bill attack the life and blood of unions.
Please give specifics on what the bill actually is taking away from the unions.
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
12:43 pm
Joe Plutocrat: “make EVERY teacher on the public payroll a non-emplyee “contractor” and pay them $25/hour ($52,000/year)”
Is that counting summer?
MiltonMan
February 21st, 2011
12:45 pm
Jay, please look at the schools in North Fulton & compare them to Wisconsin pal. The reason that GA scores are so low is that we have to include the liberals located in the APS, DeKalb, Clayton, etc.
John Birch
February 21st, 2011
12:45 pm
What a ridiculous argument. You will get a much higher coefficent of correlation if you compare those average test scores to the percentage of African American test takers, student-teacher ratios, or about a dozen other factors. The real issue is Obama and the Dems love the unions, minorities and ambulance chasers because those are their constiuents, a republican governor and legislateure, not so much. If they were Dems gutting free enterprise you could then show how ending capitalism results in being 2nd in the nation in SAT scores!
dw
February 21st, 2011
12:46 pm
nice job of misreading statistics sir bookman.
unions can help eduators have good pay, working conditions, protection from whatever, but
unions do have the problem of forcing schools to keep tenured, but long since worthless
teachers in place. i have children that have been schooled in both union and non-union
states and have found excellent and poor in both. but the fact that unionization kept some
truely lousy teachers in place is totally true and a fact that i have seen.
RGB
February 21st, 2011
12:46 pm
What is the quality of education in Wisconsin classrooms when the teachers lie and call in sick?
Correlate that with the existence of a teacher’s union.
And what can one of the lying teachers tell a student who presents a similar falsified “excuse” in order to miss an exam or just play hooky?
Southern Comfort (B.P.O.I.B.W.)
February 21st, 2011
12:47 pm
Unions in the private sector regulate themselves, either they moderate their demands or put themselves out of a job, like the UAW or the Steel workers.
Pure Bullsh*t…. Steel Workers got put out of work due to cheap ass imports with no tarriffs because investors and stuff wanted free trade agreements. Don’t try to blame that on unions. No way in hell you’d work in a foundry for $2 a day, so don’t ask somebody else to do it.
MiltonMan
February 21st, 2011
12:47 pm
How about the feds getting out altogether from education? The feds are currently only good at 2 things – Defense (some liberals think we spend too much) & interstate transportation (even though AmTrack is garbage).
saywhat?
February 21st, 2011
12:48 pm
Why all the wealth envy by the republicans over public service workers?Why aim wealth envy at people making on average less than 70,000 per year?
It would seem that if the public service workers have it so much better than people in the private sector, the sensible thing to do would be to seek to raise the standard of living for people in the private sector.Why would you instead try to pull down those people are doing alright, to the level of those who are not? Does misery really love company that much? Is this how bitter the people clinging to their guns and religion have become? What sad little people.
NIght Train
February 21st, 2011
12:49 pm
SoCo wrote “Think of it this way… A union, such as a teacher’s union, is a organization of professionals working in the same profession who group together to try to help shape and influence their profession. ”
That’s a good one. Who runs the teachers union? Not a teacher. Every union I’ve been involved with has professional union employees to run the ‘union’. A teacher might be brought in to tell the union what they want, they might even let a teacher sit in during the negotiations (but not to talk) then the union adds what they want and then the union goes to the bargaining table.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
12:49 pm
“How about the feds getting out altogether from education?”
The Feds aren’t even IN this fight.
MiltonMan
February 21st, 2011
12:49 pm
Do the Chinese have unions? They seem to be kicking our rear-ends in just about everything these days including 10x more engineers & scientists.
Outside the Perimeter
February 21st, 2011
12:49 pm
Of course, there can’t be another look at the Wisconsin mess now can there be?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gcDnKQul_c8&feature=player_embedded#at=94
saywhat?
February 21st, 2011
12:50 pm
RGB- the teachers are sick , sick of scum like their governor.
getalife
February 21st, 2011
12:51 pm
First they came for our unions.
I don’t think we should wait like the Germans.
Now is the time to take our country back from fascism.
AmVet
February 21st, 2011
12:52 pm
Uncle Miltie, don’t be timid!
Come right out and say it…
And can ANY of you cons read?
It is you cons who spout Teachers unions in particular have long been a favorite target of conservatives, with a lot of people blaming unions for poor classroom performance.
YOU are the ones who contend that there is a direct correlation.
Our host simply showed one piece of evidence that appears to countermand that.
Again, reading comprehension is not one of your innumerable enemies…
moonbat betty
February 21st, 2011
12:53 pm
Yes gealife,
The Taxpayers need to step up.
People should not have to pay for health care or pension!
FREEEEEEDOM!
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
12:53 pm
“Again, reading comprehension is not one of your innumerable enemies”
or talents
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
12:54 pm
Woodstock Mike:
It’s all about context. We’re three years into a massive recession brought on by reckless and in many cases criminal Wall Street excess and so far the only high-profile case of someone going to jail is Bernie Madoff. Yet Scott Walker is part of a movement that wants us to believe that we’re “broke”, that our problems are a result of over-spending and supposedly over-lucrative public employees. This is an outrageous attempt at misdirection.
So, to answer your question, anything that categorically limits what public workers can bargain on is an attempt to perpetuate the idea that our current woes are about a lack of money and overpaid public workers. Which is a lie. We have plenty of money, it’s just that it’s going to the financiers and corporations. It needs to be taken back.
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
12:56 pm
saywhat? Why all the wealth envy by the republicans over public service workers? … It would seem that if the public service workers have it so much better than people in the private sector, the sensible thing to do would be to seek to raise the standard of living for people in the private sector ..”
Bingo!
John Birch
February 21st, 2011
1:02 pm
left wing – Please tell me why government employees are entitled to better taxpayer financed benefits than the average worker?
getalife
February 21st, 2011
1:03 pm
moonbat fascist,
The first thing the na zis did was dissolve the unions.
Lets get our country back from fascism.
Joe the Plutocrat
February 21st, 2011
1:03 pm
John @12:36, your question makes sense (why do public employees need a union?), but only in a utopian tea party world. it’s not a stretch to consider the “inefficiency” or financial burden of CBAs between state agencies and public sector unions, but as I argued earlier, why specifical isolate (blame) the teachers’ union? every spending decision or budget ever signed or vetoed in Madison (andy government) was “negotiated” or the byproduct of “collective bargaining” between the legislature (Dems and Reps) and whatver “special interest” (lobbyists) advocated or opposed it. when Miller Brewing wants to build a new plant, or move to a larger HQ, or when a NBA. NFL, or MLB franchise needs a new (taxpayer funded) home, these special interest retain lobbyists to “bargain” with the legislature. the idea that the financial woes of the State of Wisconsin will be addressed resolved by denying teachers CBA rights is a pathetic attempt on the part of the GOP to conscript some of the tea party momentum of 2010. it’s a political card trick and not a “bottom line” driven ‘tough decision’.
Jenzen
February 21st, 2011
1:04 pm
This is how a peaceful protest should look like:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GEq-wj4_W7o
Thank God, these protesters don’t carry offensive signs like to idiot Tea-Partiers do!!
Tweets that mention In Wisconsin battle, it’s not about the budget | Jay Bookman -- Topsy.com
February 21st, 2011
1:04 pm
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Ricky, NC_Policy_Watch. NC_Policy_Watch said: @UNCSouth got the info from AJC http://bit.ly/hreKHU might not be *all, but according to graphic, TX, GA, SC also have bans [...]
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:06 pm
SoCo 12:47 – point was, in a business, there’s a cap to how much you can pay people because profits get crimped and eventually a company can go out of business.
Since, in government, there is no market regulator on “profits” or revenue, revenue can just be increased until workers pay is out of line with market. (until people revolt, like now, thank you Tea Party)
All unions are corrupt, but public employee unions are the worst.
jt
February 21st, 2011
1:08 pm
2012 DREAM TEAM
Ron Paul President
Joe Wilson Vice
Judge Napolitano DOJ
Governor Scott Walker Director Department of Human Resources
Rand Paul Treasurer
Ted Nugent DHS
Peeeerfect.
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:09 pm
BTW, what happens if the Scaredycrats in Wisconsin don’t come back? Seems they should forfeit their office. Crazy crap…. but what I think is irrelevant. This is so bizarre (and morally corrupt), I doubt there’s a law on the books to deal with it.
Mick
February 21st, 2011
1:12 pm
**All unions are corrupt**
jm
Do you ever really think before you post? That’s a pretty general and sweeping statement. How about you, are you corrupt when posting on the job?
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:12 pm
Jay, also…
“In Wisconsin battle, it’s not about the budget ”
I just whole-heartedly disagree with this. It is about the budget. If it wasn’t, then the only thing they’d be passing are the (allegedly) “union-busting” provisions.
This is such garbage. Democrats are morally corrupt. Erskine Bowles is having a coronary over a crappy Dem President. Sam Nunn is probably taking Advil. B. Clinton himself is probably having misgivings.
Its sad when the Republican party is the one that looks responsible and ethical. You know the Dems have gone way down hill when we reach that stage.
fairness for all
February 21st, 2011
1:12 pm
Unions collect money from members then pass money on to elect politicians who the unions then “negotiate” with after the politicians become beholding to the unions so the members get more money and benefits from the taxpayers— anybody see anything wrong with that? The taxpayers haven’t got a prayer under that system and should be able to opt for a private school option in order to level the playing field and have a competitive system to government/union operated schools. glad to see N.J. and Pa. going after school superintendents salaries—they are obscene and clearly to point to what is wrong with allowing union bargaining in government situations….
JKL2
February 21st, 2011
1:13 pm
-You still can’t find a single Democratic state senator in the entire state of Wisconsin
Nothing says courage like running to hide. I wish I could find a job where I didn’t show up to work but yet could still get paid, charge my expenses encurred while not at work to my employer, and recieve national praise for not doing my job.
PS: It’s not the first time they’ve used the run and hide technique.
NIght Train
February 21st, 2011
1:13 pm
saywhat? wrote (and LWM seems to agree) “It would seem that if the public service workers have it so much better than people in the private sector, the sensible thing to do would be to seek to raise the standard of living for people in the private sector.”
Apples to oranges.
Public service workers get paid with taxpayers money. They want more money, taxes get raised.
Private sector workers get paid from the profits of the company they work for. They want more, then the employer must raise their prices. How far can they raise the price of their goods before people quit purchasing them?
Public workers seem to think there is a never ending supply of money.
Private sector workers know if you take too much you kill the money tree.
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:13 pm
Mick – “are you corrupt when posting on the job?”
A. Not if I get my job done.
B. Especially not when I’m working on a company holiday.
Joe the Plutocrat
February 21st, 2011
1:13 pm
Left Wing management, I stand corrected (blame my public school math teacher!), you are correct, it would be $1000/week x (let’s say) 40 weeks per year ($40,000).
DawgDad
February 21st, 2011
1:15 pm
Whether or not a Government entity allows collective bargaining should be a legislative decision of the particular government entity. The people of Wisconsin held an election and elected people who want to change the rules; they should be allowed to do so and the legislative process should not be obstructed by whiny loser leftist legislators.
I am not at all in favor of unionization in the public sector. This is supposed to be “public service”. Whether or not collective bargaining is allowed and to what extent should be a legislative decision; one approach may not serve the needs of all states or localities, or the Fed. But a government entity should NEVER forfeit its ability to modify the terms of employment; doing so is an abuse of public trust.
Mick
February 21st, 2011
1:15 pm
**ts sad when the Republican party is the one that looks responsible and ethical.**
Republicans look like fascists who only cater to the rich. The middle class morons who patronize the infamous koch brothers will catch on someday, hopefully before it’s too late..
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
1:16 pm
John Birch “left wing – Please tell me why government employees are entitled to better taxpayer financed benefits than the average worker?”
Wrong question.
Why is it that only the financiers are entitled to taxpayer financed benefits?
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:16 pm
Second that DawgDad
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:18 pm
Gov Walker is being compared to Darth Vader. I guess that means he’s the good guy that will bring balance to the force.
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:20 pm
Those idiots comparing Walker to the Evil Empire must not have seen Episode 3 (or 6). Whatever.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
1:21 pm
“Unions collect money from members then pass money on to elect politicians who the unions then “negotiate” with after the politicians become beholding to the unions so the members get more money and benefits from the taxpayers— anybody see anything wrong with that?”
Yes…unions cannot use dues money for political purposes…so your basic premise is wrong.
Southern Comfort (B.P.O.I.B.W.)
February 21st, 2011
1:21 pm
Do the union supporters contend that without a union the government would trample their rights? I thought the government was the ultimate fair employer, no?
People are people, whether in public or private sector jobs. Neither is more or less corrupt than the other.
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
1:21 pm
To jm: “all unions are corrupt”
As La Rochefoucauld said “Hypocrisy is the homage which vice pays to virtue”. And the same principle applies to unions. Corruption in unions is the “hommage” that vice plays to virtue. In other words, it’s a price we pay for the very possibility of virtue itself and therefore should be accepted as a necessary evil.
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:22 pm
At the same time, Republican state officials said they wouldn’t wait any longer for Democrats who fled the state to stall legislation.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0211/49893.html#ixzz1EcRLRI14
Awesome. Don’t know exactly what this means…. but I can guess.
MiltonMan
February 21st, 2011
1:22 pm
Jenzen – did you even view the video before you posted???
Wisconsin protestors are peaceful unlike the tea party folks???
Nothing like good old hate from these Wisconsin morons: Comparing the governor to hilter. Also, one poster had the bulls-eye with an image of the governor.
Weren’t the wussie democrtas complaining about cross hairs & that is what led to the AZ shootings??? Man, you democrats are bi-polar. Thank God you are a diminishing “entity” in this state.
Let’s not forget the former torch barrier of the democrats in this state – King Rat Roy Barnes. The fine democrat turned teachers in this state against him; only to have the clown crawl back begging for their votes.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
1:23 pm
” thought the government was the ultimate fair employer, no?”
If that was true, there would be no need for a union. It’s not true, so the unions are neccessary.
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:23 pm
Democratic National Committee quickly distanced itself Friday from reports that it was masterminding protests.
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0211/49893.html#ixzz1EcRZRIyt
Cause OFA is. This is a “lose” issue for Dems. They and the unions have made a huge mistake. Unions are vastly unpopular in the US….
MiltonMan
February 21st, 2011
1:23 pm
Unions did such a terrific job with the auto industry.
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:24 pm
LWM 1:21 – your kind of moral confusion is what has gotten our country into the toilet
moonbat betty
February 21st, 2011
1:25 pm
getalife,
Agreed.
Perhaps company cars, blackberries, and vouchers for Golden Corral should also be included in the bargaining agreement as well. I mean, people need to be able to get to work, communicate and eat dinner in order to work, right?
I hope obama will step in and correct this atrocity asap.
DO IT FOR THE CHILDREN!!
Normal
February 21st, 2011
1:26 pm
jm,
What you call “Scaredydcrats”, I call bravehearts. The Wisconsin Democrats are trying to prevent a political traversty and I salute them. Until the Republican Party can get off of its high horse and be reasonable men and women, those democrats are welcome at my house any time.
MPercy
February 21st, 2011
1:26 pm
Doggone/GA @9:59 am “could you identify and quote the union leaders who indicated that the membership is willing to “swallow the economic demands”? “[Someone] “said in a conference call with reporters that workers will do their fair share to narrow Wisconsin’s budget gap”
Forgive me if I cannot reconcile “do their fair share” spoken by a union leader with the term “swallow the economic demands”…
How about some more like “We the union will concede all point being requested by the government. We will pay the portion of our own pension funding as asked by our employer, the government. We will pay the portion of our own health care coverage premiums as asked by our employer, the government. However, we expect to retain the right to collective bargaining.”
That’s swallowing the economic demands…
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:26 pm
Bradley Tusk, a former Illinois deputy governor and New York Mayor Mike Bloomberg’s 2009 campaign manager, said that if Walker succeeds in the fight, “this will be portrayed as a major change toward fiscal sanity and protecting taxpayers.”
Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0211/49893.html#ixzz1EcSaaTTy
Because it is….
The Thin Guy
February 21st, 2011
1:27 pm
A few years back the Chicago public school teachers were on strike. A reporter asked one “What do you teach.” Her response was “I teaches English.” Labor unions are one of the main reasons for inflation and poor productivity in this country. Kudos to Wisconsin and their great governor.
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:28 pm
Go Wisconsin!
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
1:28 pm
jm
actually with the multiple protests going on all over the country I think will be a big win for Americans and the Democrats.
Hard to go wrong supporting the American working class.
ronald
February 21st, 2011
1:28 pm
Ronald said “If teachers are refusing to work, then take the revenue from their property taxes in those districts and re-apportioned that to other states ”
Doggone said “can’t be done. STATE taxes are not a federal tax.”
Doggone- You’re being trivial and didn’t really address the point at hand. The point is that taxpayers in Wisconsin are being levied property taxes to support their district’s school system. This is a city/county tax, not a federal tax as you indicate. In case you weren’t aware, public schools are largely funded locally. Wisconsin residents are paying property taxes to support their local system and the teachers are refusing to work (AGAIN THIS WEEK, who knows how long it will last), while the taxpayers kids are forced to stay at home because schools are closed. Why should the union retards receive a paycheck from taxpayers, while they aren’t working? Thats the next question that should be answered.
Joe the Plutocrat
February 21st, 2011
1:28 pm
jt, one correction ; ELIMINATE DHS
Mick
February 21st, 2011
1:29 pm
Just look at the numbers, the people don’t want unions abolished. Governor walker is on a power trip, pure and simple. What has he done? This type of republican fascist makes himself look like mubarak, nice going gov. great future ahead…
MPercy
February 21st, 2011
1:29 pm
“That man [Donald Rumsfeld] should be waterboarded and then made to publicly apologize to the American people for being such a grade A loser.”
So much for toning down the rhetoric. I see it’s OK for a leftist to advocate torture for conservative politician, but when the same politician advocates the same torture for suspected terrorists…call out the ACLU.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
1:31 pm
“You’re being trivial”
so it’s “trivial” to point out that property taxes collected by one state CANNOT BE “APPORTIONED” to another STATE? Have you looked up “trivial” in the dictionary lately?
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
1:31 pm
NIght Train:
Re the “apples and oranges” of public workers vs. private. You’re missing the point here.
The whole point is that this entire debate is intended to white-wash the fact that the private workers’s own wages and benefits have been hemorrhaging since the 1970s. The debate we therefore should be having is not: How can be make public workers sacrifice like everyone else? but rather Just why is it that public wages/benefits have been increasingly looking better than their private counterparts? If the public were allowed to see that it’s because of union representation in the public sector then support for unions in general would likely start increasing, which of course is what the moneyed interests don’t want. Unfortunately for them though, Gov. Walker may have just overplayed their hand.
Normal
February 21st, 2011
1:31 pm
Mick
February 21st, 2011
1:29 pm
Yeah, too bad he can’t call out the Wisconsin National Guard to shoot down those nasty Middle Class Scum messin’ up his State…
Southern Comfort (B.P.O.I.B.W.)
February 21st, 2011
1:31 pm
That’s a good one. Who runs the teachers union? Not a teacher.
And I’m guessing the President of the US Chamber of Commerce operates a local drug store… LOL
Since, in government, there is no market regulator on “profits” or revenue, revenue can just be increased until workers pay is out of line with market.
There is no market regulator on “profits” or revenues because the government is not out to make a profit. The government is there to provide services. If it charges more than what the services cost, then cut the fees. Don’t try to blame government’s spending problems on workers, because payroll is not the big reason for government spending problems. I’d think with your sometimes level-headed thinking, even you’d see that. However, with your jaded “Unions are evil” glasses on, I know otherwise.
ronald
February 21st, 2011
1:32 pm
ronald said “Let them have 401ks like everyone else.”
Left Wing Management said “Turn off the Fox News and WGST and learn something for a change will ya.”
Another bumper sticker answer from a dumb liberal when confronted with a real question. Try again, Left Wing. This is a real question. Why should taxpayers provide a defined benefit pension plan for public school teachers when most taxpayers don’t have that benefit themselves?
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:32 pm
Granny 1:28 wrong. 58% of Independents view Unions unfavorably.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
1:32 pm
“Unfortunately for them though, Gov. Walker may have just overplayed their hand”
that’s how I see it too. He may end up winning this battle…and losing the war.
Kamchak
February 21st, 2011
1:32 pm
So, when a meth addicted narcissistic sociopath recommends it, it’s called going Galt, but when Democrat congress critters do it, it’s called “the run and hide” technique.
Got it.
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:33 pm
I think Obama just put the nail in his coffin.
ronald
February 21st, 2011
1:33 pm
And you can pretend that the unions have already agreed to the pension costs as outlined. But have you seen the signs of the protestors and the interviews they give? They are NOT all making the same point that Jay made regarding CB rights. They are very publically complaining about the increased cost of funding HALF of their pension. What the protestors are saying and what the union reps are saying are NOT the same thing.
Normal
February 21st, 2011
1:34 pm
ronald
February 21st, 2011
1:28 pm
I’d bet you a dollar to a doughnut that you would do the same thing if you found yourself in the same situation.
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
1:34 pm
MiltonMan
February 21st, 2011
1:23 pm
Unions did such a terrific job with the auto industry.
yep, those rascally decided to make huge gas guzzlers and leave the massive economy car market to the japanese ….OOPS…that was management that ran ‘em down the tubes.
I will say I think the unions did good work in creating child labor laws, which, by the way a GOP lawmaker out of Missouri wants to roll back.
isn’t that lovely….going from selling Girl Scout Cookies to running a ten ton press
MPercy
February 21st, 2011
1:35 pm
Doggone/GA @10:07 am “One of the missing Democratic state senators, Jon Erpenbach, said all state and local public employees — including teachers — have agreed to the financial aspects of Walker’s requested concessions on paying more for employee health care and pensions. “In return they ask only that the provisions that deny their right to collectively bargain are removed,” Erpenbach said. “This will solve the budget challenge.”
If this is so, I’m forced to retract part of my earlier comment @1:26.
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:35 pm
Kamchak 1:32 – guess you never read the book. Cause Galt wasn’t a legislator. There’s no requirement in this country to work. But when you’re elected to office, your job is to represent your voters. And Dems have abdicated that responsibility.
Democrats. The party of autocrats and corruption.
Kamchak
February 21st, 2011
1:36 pm
Kamchak 1:32 – guess you never read the book.
Then you guessed wrong.
eddy
February 21st, 2011
1:36 pm
Of course it is not about the unions, “IT is ’bout the chill’rins and the weckin’class peoples” Should fire them all and start over. I’m sure that there are teachers who would really like work and actually teach their students something rather than making them all “feel so good ’bout they selves. “
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
1:36 pm
“If this is so, I’m forced to retract part of my earlier comment @1:26″
As far as I know it is correct. It has been reported that way since at least Friday evening and no reports have surfaced since to say it is incorrect.
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:36 pm
Granny G – the truth hurts doesn’t it? Knowing 58% of Indies don’t like unions, meaning Dems are losing more independent moderate votes by the day. These guys are done, toast.
Incumbency is powerful, Obama may still win. But in a straight up fight, he’d lose.
ronald
February 21st, 2011
1:36 pm
Normal says “I’d bet you a dollar to a doughnut that you would do the same thing if you found yourself in the same situation.”
We’ll never know because I don’t enjoy the benefit of having taxpayers pay the lion’s share of my retirement benefits. I fund my retirement plan MYSELF without asking taxpayers to fund it for me.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
1:37 pm
“But when you’re elected to office, your job is to represent your voters. And Dems have abdicated that responsibility.”
and I would say they are doing an exceptionally GOOD JOB of that representation, by preventing the passage of a bad bill
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:37 pm
Kamchak 1:36 – well then I guess you didn’t pay attention when reading it. Cause Galt wasn’t a legislator. Or maybe your logic circuits don’t work….
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:39 pm
Doggone 1:37 – by not doing their job. Well, I guess you’ll be applauding Republicans if they decide not to pass a CR or a new budget, or raise the debt ceiling. Cause after all, they’re doing their job.
Your logic stinks Dog.
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
1:39 pm
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:32 pm
Granny 1:28 wrong. 58% of Independents view Unions unfavorably.
In wisconsin?
at this moment, nope
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:40 pm
Obama is out of touch…. clueless.
Something momentous is happening in the United States right now and Barack Obama doesn’t get it.
http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyharnden/100076929/american-way-barack-obama-cult-figure-of-2008-left-behind-by-new-anti-spending-zeitgeist/
MPercy
February 21st, 2011
1:40 pm
Jay @10:12 am Del, it’s not a point in contention. Everybody in Wisconsin from the governor on down understands that the unions are willing to accept what Walker has demanded from them in terms of economics.
One reason to remove the collective bargaining is to make it harder for the next Democratic governor & state house to undo the current economic concessions. Of course, that governor and state house can reverse the law when they have the votes. Another reason is that once collective bargaining ensues, the unions can claim the state government is not bargaining in good faith (no matter if they are or aren’t) and bring in some of Barak Obama’s Dept. of Labor “mediators” to oversee the process.
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
1:40 pm
jm
love to see your over confidence…..
Kamchak
February 21st, 2011
1:40 pm
Cause Galt wasn’t a legislator.
Never said he was, sport.
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
1:40 pm
Is someone bringing up that fictional grabage from the drug addict Ayn Rand AGAIN!
John Birch
February 21st, 2011
1:41 pm
A recent poll in Poland, WI showed teachers unions have fallen from a 87% favorable rating to 42%, nice move teacher. Seems like laying out of work, lying about being sick so you can get paid, and comparing the gov to Hosni Mubarek isn’t exactly what the good people of
Wisconsin think they should be getting for their tax dollars. On Wisconsan!
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:41 pm
Granny – I don’t care about Wisconsin (at the margin). I care about the country. And this episode is helping the country go Red. But have fun sticking your head in the sand….
Michelle Mal's Kin
February 21st, 2011
1:41 pm
That’s right, let’s blame minorities, (especially blacks — without blacks this country would be PERFECT!); illegal aliens, birth control, teachers, and while we’re at it – people who’s name start with the letters A-T, on all our worries!! See below comments from John and Jay. True ConServs. True Americans and True men!
What a ridiculous argument. You will get a much higher coefficent of correlation if you compare those average test scores to the percentage of African American test takers, student-teacher ratios, or about a dozen other factors.
Jay, please look at the schools in North Fulton & compare them to Wisconsin pal. The reason that GA scores are so low is that we have to include the liberals located in the APS, DeKalb, Clayton, etc.
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
1:42 pm
Something momentous is happening in the US right now and jm is telling us just what the UK bloggers says it is. hehehe too funny
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:42 pm
Obama’s a loser.
The fact that a president would use his own campaign foot soldiers to back public employees against their elected state government shows how distorted his priorities have become. Instead of confronting unions, as President Ronald Reagan did with the air traffic controllers in 1981 when he fired more than 11,000 of them, Obama is facilitating them.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
1:42 pm
“Well, I guess you’ll be applauding Republicans if they decide not to pass a CR or a new budget, or raise the debt ceiling.”
If it’s a bad bill…yes, I will
Mick
February 21st, 2011
1:44 pm
jm
Funny how people got along just fine with the public sector unions until this year. It seems there is a concerted strategy to go after them. It’s a power play pure and simple. Five, ten years ago why weren’t people raising questions? No, now that the great corporate capitalists and wall street thieves during the past regime have gutted the US, they want to come back and finish the job…
WOODSTOCK MIKE
February 21st, 2011
1:45 pm
@Left Wing Management
Oh, so you believe that balancing a budget is not that important. Ok, I understand your logic now…
You believe Walker is lying about the state’s financial position, correct??
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:45 pm
TaxPayer 1:42 – you’re not too bright. The author is based in DC. And not a blogger…. an actual journalist…
ronald
February 21st, 2011
1:45 pm
The Unions are trying to make this seem like an uprising by the people.
In reality, it is an uprising of a small subset of our population, who are rising up AGAINST the people. Americans will realize that the economics of this battle is a zero-sum game pitting public union employees vs. the taxpayers who pay their salaries.
This union strategy only makes sense when the bulk of the population either belongs to a union or supports those who belong to a union. Neither of those are the case right now, and ultimately the court of public opinion will sway against them. Their fate is cast…..
Normal
February 21st, 2011
1:46 pm
ronald
February 21st, 2011
1:36 pm
I knew you’d come back with something like that, superior sounding and probable untrue, but you are like a lot of others here…you refuse to look at it from the other sides eyes and see what they see. That’s sad.
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:46 pm
“If it’s a bad bill…yes, I will”
You’ll be applauding them? Well. Never knew you were a Republican Doggone…..
MPercy
February 21st, 2011
1:46 pm
Adam @10:12 am There’s something wrong with open voting now? Actions have consequences and people SHOULD be held accountable. You’re acting like unions are mafias, and that’s just not the case.
Yes, we have secret ballots for a reason–to prevent intimidation. There are plenty of instances where the union got enough signatures to prompt a vote, then lost big time when the vote took place. The difference? Petitions are signed right in front of the union reps, votes are secret and deniable if personally pressured.
Anecdotal evidence of thuggery: When I was a teenager, my father negotiated for management of a large manufacturer against a large union every few years. I remember rocks being thrown through our windows. I know my father wore a bullet-proof vest to work everyday for years because of explicit written death threats–he kept it in the trunk of his car and put it on in the garage before he left the house and took it off when he got home, so as to keep this aspect hidden from his family (except I caught him changing one morning–I was admonished not to tell my mother).
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:47 pm
Unions versus the American People. The Unions, and Democrats, their enablers, will lose.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
1:47 pm
“Never knew you were a Republican Doggone…..”
And you still don’t know it.
Normal
February 21st, 2011
1:48 pm
There seems to be a new political schism out there that I call Corporate Communism…and I think ronald is one of them…
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
1:48 pm
ronald:
Ok, here’s an answer that won’t fit easily onto a bumper sticker.
You’re entangled in a line of thinking thinking with no basis in reality. The 401 solution, to start with, is laughable after the gutting of Wall St regulation and the market crashes of recent years. So that’s almost like telling someone to go through Vegas for their retirement plans.
As I wrote above, the crisis here is not about leeching public workers but about declining wages among workers in general in the face of greater productivity and increasing profits, soaring CEO pay (with little accountability to boot), more and more perks for corporations (tax payer funded of course), bailouts of reckless financiers, and the list goes on and on.
So this is a trumped-up, phony debate.
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
1:48 pm
jm
you don’t seem to care about much that doesn’t enrich you personally.
That’s why we won’t go RED. We didn’t in the 50’s we aren’t going to now.
My head’s held high, I do ponder where yours is.
WOODSTOCK MIKE
February 21st, 2011
1:49 pm
@Doggone/GA
You are incorrect. The elected officials that left the state have made it impossible for a Democrat to win any future election in Wisconsin.
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:49 pm
American Way: Barack Obama, cult figure of 2008, left behind by new anti-spending zeitgeist
Something momentous is happening in the United States right now and Barack Obama doesn’t get it. In Madison, Wisconsin last week, up to 40,000 public employees, organised by their unions, the Democratic party and the grassroots Organizing for America group that elected the president in 2008, gathered at the state capitol. Teachers left their classrooms, forcing schools to close.
Their objective? To rail against an attempt to balance the budget and curtail union power by newly-elected Governor Scott Walker, a Republican. The Democratic party’s response? Its state senators have fled Wisconsin to Illinois, dodging state troopers as they went, in order to prevent the budget being voted on. Obama branded Walker’s actions as an “assault on unions”.
It was Obama who crowed just after he entered the White House that “elections have consequences”. In Wisconsin last November, the consequences included the governorship, a Senate seat and the state senate and assembly all being lost by the Democrats.
Although you may have read about the Tea Party being a collection of fringe racists and lunatics, their activists in places like Wisconsin were mainly ordinary Americans sick to the back teeth with out-of-control spending.
Walker’s proposals are relatively modest ones for someone facing a $3.6 billion shortfall. He was elected on a platform of balancing the budget and he’s got to find the money to do that from somewhere.
Budget crises are brewing in Ohio, New Jersey and a slew of other states.
The protests in Wisconsin coincided with Obama presenting his new budget in Washington. Despite all his talk of moving to the centre and cutting the national debt, Obama showed he was utterly unserious about dealing with the US government’s catastrophic addiction to spending.
He cast aside the tough measures recommended by the bipartisan Deficit Commission he appointed and failed to tackle what everyone knows is the main financial drain – the big “entitlement” programmes of Social Security, Medicare (for the elderly) and Medicaid (for the poor).
What Obama proposed would do nothing more than slow down the rate of increase in the national debt. No responsible citizen would run their own household finances this way.
Depressingly, Obama’s calculation seems to be that he can talk a good game on the deficit and spout vacuous slogans like “winning the future”. He’ll leave it to Republicans to propose swingeing cuts in entitlement programmes and then suffer a backlash from frightened voters at the polls in 2012. At least, that’s what happened in 1996. But Obama does not seem to have noticed that 2012 is not 1996.
The fact that a president would use his own campaign foot soldiers to back public employees against their elected state government shows how distorted his priorities have become. Instead of confronting unions, as President Ronald Reagan did with the air traffic controllers in 1981 when he fired more than 11,000 of them, Obama is facilitating them.
In the freshman class of House of Representatives, there is a mood of revolution not dissimilar to that inside Governor Walker’s administration (to be clear: the crowds surrounding the state capitol are the forces of reaction).
Saturday’s package of $60 billion budget cuts, passed in the early hours, did not tackle entitlements. It did, however, set the stage for a confrontation with Obama that could well lead to a government shutdown, which last happened in 1995. Scenes like those in Wisconsin could soon be repeated in Washington.
Two figures in American politics right now are talking seriously about dealing with the federal spending crisis. One is Governor Mitch Daniels of Indiana who declared recently that the federal government was “morbidly obese” and needed “not just behaviour modification but bariatric surgery”.
It’s possible that this was also a gentle dig at Christie, a self-described “pretty fat” guy, who is the other. Christie spoke in Washington last week about how he was advised not to slash state programmes. “I had everybody telling me, Governor you can’t do it. Your approval ratings will go in the toilet. People love these programmes.” He ignored them and his ratings went up.
Both Daniels and Christie are being urged by conservatives to run for president. Both like plain talk on fiscal matters and favour action over words.
Obama, in the meantime, prefers fine words, careful positioning, fidelity to powerful Democratic interest groups. His failure to grasp what is happening in Wisconsin, underlines that the cult figure of 2008 is being left behind by the new zeitgeist.
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:50 pm
“That’s why we won’t go RED”
So. The House went Red by rigged elections? Ok….
Jay
February 21st, 2011
1:51 pm
To MPercy:
“We have been clear – and I will restate this again today – money issues are off the table. Public employees have agreed to Governor Walker’s pension and health care concessions, which he says will solve the budget challenge.”
– Mary Bell, head of the state teachers union
I do not know how they can make it any more explicit. The conservative reluctance to admit that fact demonstrates just how weak their case has become.
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
1:51 pm
jm,
Your link is to a blog with a .uk suffix. That’s bright enough for me to see.
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:52 pm
Jay, when Democrats commit political suicide by abrogating attempts to win elections in the growing part of the country, when they abrogate their responsibility as electors, when they take the side of special interests over taxpayers and voters, when they fail to do their job of managing the government in a fiscally sound way and voters hold them responsible for it, it is VERY HARD to have any sympathy for them if they get rocked in a future election.
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
1:52 pm
I predict Walker will start walking this back next week…..
Normal
February 21st, 2011
1:53 pm
Woodstock Mike,
I’ll bet that the Democratics will sweep Wisconsin come 2012.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
1:53 pm
“The elected officials that left the state have made it impossible for a Democrat to win any future election in Wisconsin”
time will tell
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
1:53 pm
Walker is a coward for threatening to lay off 6000 in Wisconsin and not following through with his threat. Typical Republican.
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
1:54 pm
“when Democrats commit political suicide by abrogating attempts to win elections in the growing part of the country, when they abrogate their responsibility as electors, when they take the side of special interests over taxpayers and voters, when they fail to do their job of managing the government in a fiscally sound way and voters hold them responsible for it”
but when a famous republican did it by sneaking out of a window it was ok?
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:54 pm
Jay 1:51 – that’s PR garbage. I’m sorry. It’s like Obama saying he is going to cut the deficit and isn’t growing spending. But he doesn’t want to count interest payments as part of the budget. And Social Security is ok. And he’s cutting because he’s freezing the budget at a level 25% elevated from 2 years ago.
Hogwash. The Dems have no credibility. Much less unions.
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:56 pm
Granny G 1:52 – you’re wrong. The Unions and Dems are going to lose this battle, and lose it big. And it will have national implications.
This is just a Chris Christie replica. Walker will win this and become more popular for it. He knows that, and he knows what he is doing is the right thing to do. So he won’t be backing down 1 inch.
USMC dawg
February 21st, 2011
1:56 pm
Unions are WRONG for America.
They are corrupt and anti-democratic in nature.
Message to Unions: The Party Is Over! Now you will have to face reality out in the REAL world.
Lesson: There are no guarantees in Life. Get over it!
This is Classic!:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4thvTkvbZjU
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
1:57 pm
“The Unions and Dems are going to lose this battle, and lose it big. And it will have national implications”
I think that’s entirely possible, and in fact I said it earlier. They may very well win this battle…but ultimately lose the war.
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:58 pm
Hell, all Walker is asking for is no collective bargaining on benefits. They can still haggle all day long on wages…. all he wants is straight up honest negotiations so taxpayers can see the costs instead of corrupt dirty unions and dems hiding huge benefits packages in legislation that will be paid by future generations of kids and workers for the lucky fat cat union employees.
Disgusting.
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
1:59 pm
Woodstock Mike: Oh, so you believe that balancing a budget is not that important. Ok, I understand your logic now…
You believe Walker is lying about the state’s financial position, correct??
Is it lying?
Remember, we’re in Orwellian territory where the very goal itself is to sow confusion and misinformation, to blur boundaries.
Put it this way. Somebody sets a house on fire and then cries “help! fire!”. He’s not strictly speaking lying by crying “fire!”, but what he’s engaged in is a campaign of untruth. So, we’re splitting hairs.
So when Walker cynically guts one side of his balance sheet (state revenues) for various conservative pet projects (corporate tax cuts, health savings plan boosts) and then turns around and claims: “hey, sorry, we’re broke”, that is the same as the guy who sets a house on fire and then tries to claim he’s just honestly responding to an emergency.
Bottom line: Yes, he’s lying.
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:59 pm
Doggone 1:57 – that’s why Christie has become more popular? Cause he’s winning the battle, and winning the war?…. ok whatever
Mick
February 21st, 2011
1:59 pm
jm
Who is your consituency? You berate obama, democrats, unions, yet you carry water for the rich and wealthy. Are they your brothers? Do you really think they give a damn about you? Just keep carrying that water, you’re very good for them..
ronald
February 21st, 2011
1:59 pm
Left Wing “You’re entangled in a line of thinking thinking with no basis in reality. The 401 solution, to start with, is laughable after the gutting of Wall St regulation and the market crashes of recent years. So that’s almost like telling someone to go through Vegas for their retirement plans.”
Leftwing, you still don’t get it. The question is not how good or bad a 401k is and this debate has nothing to do with Wall St. regulation. The question is why should public union emplyees enjoy a benefit (defined benefit pension plans) that the majority of taxpayers don’t enjoy. I’ve spelled this out for you 3 times now and you continue to change the subject. Answer THIS question. Why should taxpayers pay for a benefit for public union employees when the taxpayers themselves mostly don’t have that same benefit? Is that fair to you?
USMC dawg
February 21st, 2011
2:00 pm
GALLUP: Number of Solidly Democratic States Cut in Half From ‘08 to ‘10…
http://www.gallup.com/poll/146234/Number-Solidly-Democratic-States-Cut-Half.aspx?utm_source=alert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=syndication&utm_content=plaintextlink&utm_term=Politics
The Original Get Real
February 21st, 2011
2:00 pm
To Mr. Bookman and the liberals on this blog, the unions are losing this battle big time in the eyes of the nation. It is on TV every night and the unions continue to come across as “bad news”. The democratic state senators that have fled the state and shunned their sworn responsibilities look even worse.
If anyone thinks that the unions are going to win this debate then you are so sadly mistaken.
jm
February 21st, 2011
2:01 pm
Democrats have slunk back to the only safe ghetto for their base. Corrupt unions and the ignorant. They will lose votes for this.
Poll: Should union bargaining rights be cut? - Handling Hard Times - The Orange County Register
February 21st, 2011
2:01 pm
[...] — Texas, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia — ban collective bargaining (See this Atlanta Journal Constitution map and story on which states have collective bargaining for unionized government [...]
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
2:02 pm
jm
nope
Americans may not need unions as much as we used to but we remember
why they were formed.
we remember scabs and strike breakers and battles in the streets
we remember the triangle shirtwaist fire and the battle of blair mountain.
The American working class will prevail.
John Birch
February 21st, 2011
2:02 pm
Michele – I’m only blaming Jay for claiming Georgia’s low SAT scores are related to the illegality of collectve bargaining for teachers in this state, which is totally fabricated BS. I pointed out it’s much more closely related to 28% of our SAT takers being African American, who score lower on standardized tests, which for you may be an inconvenient truth, but it’s a fact nevertheless. Just check out some SAT numbers for yourself, they’re all available online, instead of spouting nonsense like Jay did today. BTW, I’m pro choice and I’m not a Republican.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
2:03 pm
“I’m only blaming Jay for claiming Georgia’s low SAT scores are related to the illegality of collectve bargaining for teachers in this state”
Except he didn’t do that
ronald
February 21st, 2011
2:03 pm
Jay says ” The conservative reluctance to admit that fact demonstrates just how weak their case has become.”
Jay- Asking public unions to pay for only HALF their pension contributions is just the beginning. I’m glad that they’ve agreed with that change and I acknowledge that they’ve conceeded this. But the pension story won’t stop there. Politicians like Walker and taxpayers like me will continue to push the issue until defined benefit pension plans for public union employees are done away with. There is no justification for taxpayers to provide union employees benefits that most taxpayers don’t also have.
Joe the Plutocrat
February 21st, 2011
2:04 pm
just wondering; if (all) “unions are corrupt”, with whom have they cultivated and nurtured these “corrupt” relationships? here’s a hint, the answer rhymes with POLITICIANS. don’t get me wrong, if the “corruption” exists between union leadership and the rank and file, who cares? again, anyone think corruption is the exclusive property of “unions”? this is a “no honor among theives” scenario a best.
John Birch
February 21st, 2011
2:04 pm
granny – How can the working class hope to prevail when the Repubs give our money to the rich and the Dems give it to the poor? No one represents us any more.
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
2:05 pm
If he stood for reelection today against one of the current Republican front runners Obama would almost certainly win the same number of electoral votes he did in 2008, if not more.
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
2:05 pm
Walker and his Republican cronies are all cowards. They have shown that they are not interested in balancing a budget. They want to take away the people’s basic rights. Power to the people.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
2:05 pm
“Why should taxpayers pay for a benefit for public union employees when the taxpayers themselves mostly don’t have that same benefit? Is that fair to you?”
Yes, it does. That is what came out of the bargaining, and that is what is in the contract. You want it changed? Then bargain a better deal for the taxpayers, don’t try to STRIP the bargaining rights away. BARGAIN in good faith.
jm
February 21st, 2011
2:05 pm
“yet you carry water for the rich and wealthy.”
I do nothing of the sort.
ronald
February 21st, 2011
2:06 pm
Taxpayer says “Power to the people”
I agree with you. However the “people” you speak of are the taxpayers, not the union retards who suck benefits at the taxpayer’s expense.
Kamchak
February 21st, 2011
2:06 pm
Politicians like Walker and taxpayers like me will continue to push the issue until defined benefit pension plans for public union employees are done away with.
Nope.
You won’t be satisfied until unions are gone for good.
Then you, just like talk-radio has programmed, will turn your attention to a new boogeyman.
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
2:07 pm
Democrats have slunk back to the only safe ghetto for their base. Corrupt unions and the ignorant. They will lose votes for this.
Wrong, jm. Power to the people.
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
2:07 pm
Well, with a name like John Birch you are going to have trouble getting support on anything….
Birchers, I have seen it written they think every body but themselves are commies….what a hoot.
John Birch
February 21st, 2011
2:07 pm
dog – Check your reading comprehension score! Is it a positive integer greater than one? If so, proceed. What does “How does the ability of teachers to form unions and bargain collectively correlate to classroom performance?” followed by showing the low SAT scores in the non-collective bargaining states mean to you?
Dave R.
February 21st, 2011
2:08 pm
” The conservative reluctance to admit that fact demonstrates just how weak their case has become.”
LOL, Jay! The case supporting Walker has never been stronger, because it is based on FACTS.
Not that facts matter to you . . .
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
2:09 pm
Did you know the Birchers though Ike was a commie?
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
2:09 pm
make that “thought”
Dave R.
February 21st, 2011
2:10 pm
” They want to take away the people’s basic rights.”
Love to see what basic rights are being taken away. Not that I expect any answer based on the Constitution, mind you, which is the guarantor of rights in this country.
jm
February 21st, 2011
2:10 pm
“Power to the people.”
Slogans….
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
2:12 pm
ronald
February 21st, 2011
2:06 pm
Taxpayer says “Power to the people”
I agree with you. However the “people” you speak of are the taxpayers, not the union retards who suck benefits at the taxpayer’s expense.
Then you don’t agree with anything I said. Those union workers are not “retards”. They were hired to do a job and they do it and they are willing to work with the Republicans to solve a financial problem but not to break up their union. Walker and his Republican cronies are cowards. Republicans have union envy.
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
2:13 pm
Ok, ronald.
Limitations of the medium here. Can’t address everything I want to and you want as quickly as I’d like. So here goes.
The question is why should public union employees enjoy a benefit (defined benefit pension plans) that the majority of taxpayers don’t enjoy.
In a single word, because of that most unconservative of concepts: service. It’s a concept that you’ll watch FOX news and listen to El Rushbo for many moons without hearing mentioned, and yet, it’s an utterly essential aspect of any civilized society.
As I wrote yesterday on Wingfield’s blog, there’s a reason we need to go an extra mile to ensure a measure of security for people who go into traditionally less lucrative lines of work – going into burning buildings, hauling trash, teaching children, delivering mail – in return for their foregoing more lucrative private careers. And it benefits us all to make sure people who are committed to doing such work have good reason to commit many years, if not entire careers, to that work. Hence the need to ensure for them some basic security, which is taxpayer funded, since the taxpayers are the direct beneficiaries of that service.
jm
February 21st, 2011
2:13 pm
The Dems and Unions should at least be honest and chant the truth: More Money and Future Opportunities to take from the public till for the Over-protected, impossible to fire, already Over Paid, Public Employees of Wisconsin!!!
Observer
February 21st, 2011
2:14 pm
Can someone please explain to me why this statement is ok for the Gov. of WI but not ok for the POTUS…….Gov. Walker ran on a platform of restoring the budget of Wisconsin and he is only doing what he said he would do and what the voters elected him to do. But the same people that agree with this for the Gov of WI will have a conniption and holler we need to take back our country when it’s appled to the President.
jm
February 21st, 2011
2:14 pm
Dave – Liberals are not prone to being focused on the facts, reality, truth or anything of the sort. The Constitution falls even further down their list of things worthy of consideration.
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
2:15 pm
Left WIng
” there’s a reason we need to go an extra mile to ensure a measure of security for people who go into traditionally less lucrative lines of work – going into burning buildings, hauling trash, teaching children, delivering mail – in return for their foregoing more lucrative private careers. And it benefits us all to make sure people who are committed to doing such work have good reason to commit many years, if not entire careers, to that work. Hence the need to ensure for them some basic security, which is taxpayer funded, since the taxpayers are the direct beneficiaries of that service.”
BRAVO! BRAVO!
Very well put.
We the people are our brothers keepers.
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
2:15 pm
You won’t see a Republican use “Power to the People” as a slogan because they’re not for the people. Unless you consider a corporation to be a person.
mvargas
February 21st, 2011
2:16 pm
Sure the unions have offered “concessions” but the collective bargining is not the main issue. To break the unions you have to get the “right to work” rules as well as the union having to collect dues outside just having the employer peel them out of the paycheck, and the unions will claim that they get to keep that if they also keep the collective bargining. They are offering nothing at the moment. Sure they take a small financial hit, but only until the millions in union dollars allow them to stack the school boards and negotiate new sweetheart contracts.
So far the republicans in the Wisconsin state legislature seem to realize this and if anything are becoming less willing to negotiate as the union displays its arrogance. Hopefully they will eventually get at least one democrap to show up long enough to vote and end this.
Of course, if Gov. Walker was smart he’d announce that the Democraps have 3 days to show up or he starts the layoffs. Put the onus on them to appear or the unions start seeing positions cut.
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
2:16 pm
Liberals are not prone to being focused on the facts, reality, truth or anything of the sort. The Constitution falls even further down their list of things worthy of consideration.
Wrong.
jm
February 21st, 2011
2:16 pm
Observer – Dems aren’t saying “we need to win the next WI election”. They’re trying to abrogate the results of the election by shutting down the WI government.
Dems are the government shut downers, not Republicans. And that’s true at the national level too.
The Republican House has passed a 2011 spending bill. Reed and the Dems have not and Reed is deliberately attempting to blame the Republicans even though the Senate is the problem.
As always, corrupt Dems.
kayaker 71
February 21st, 2011
2:17 pm
You libs out there are always dissing the old in our society for hanging onto their Medicare and SS benefits but you seem to have no trouble in backing teachers who, it appears, are eager to protect what they think is coming to them. I got mine, just don’t touch it. But we can take yours anytime we want. Seem fair?
jm
February 21st, 2011
2:17 pm
Taxpayer – “Wrong”
Right.
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
2:17 pm
Walker doesn’t have the guts to follow through with his lame threat to lay off 6000 workers. He’s a typical Republican coward.
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
2:18 pm
Of course I’m right, jm.
John Birch
February 21st, 2011
2:19 pm
granny – I prefer the limited government and personal freedom planks of the Birchers, not the extremist joe mccarthy stuff. Which part of breathing fire and stomping hopeless Japanese women and children to death do you associate with?
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
2:19 pm
Dems are the government shut downers, not Republicans. And that’s true at the national level too.
Wrong
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
2:19 pm
“already Over Paid, Public Employees of Wisconsin!!!”
speaking of facts, this isn’t one
In Wisconsin, which has become a focal point in this debate, public servants already take a pretty hefty pay cut just for the opportunity to serve their communities (Keefe 2010). The figure below shows that when comparing the total compensation (which includes non-wage benefits such as health care and pensions) of workers with similar education, public-sector workers consistently make less than their private–sector peers. Workers with a bachelor’s degree or more—which constitute nearly 60% of the state and local workforce in Wisconsin—are compensated between $20,000 less (if they just have a bachelor’s degree) to over $82,000 a year less (if they have a professional degree, such as in law or medicine).
The Original Get Real
February 21st, 2011
2:20 pm
TaxPayer…looks like you are having some reality denial problems…just sayin
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
2:21 pm
John Birch
Actually, in the end Godzilla became the good guy and saved Japan.
Keep up.
Jay
February 21st, 2011
2:22 pm
Did Scott Walker campaign on stripping unions of the right to collectively bargain on benefits and stripping them of the right to collect union dues through their paychecks?
No, he did not. But that is what he’s doing.
And again, this is not about balancing the budget. This is about union-busting. Those of you who refuse to believe what union leaders have explicitly and repeatedly stated — they accept the need for benefit cuts — are being irrational.
Blue Man on a Red Island
February 21st, 2011
2:23 pm
Kayaker @ 2:17 – What???? Show me one example of us “Libs” dissing anyone for hanging on to their SS or Medicare. Are liberals the ones claiming SS should be privatized??? Are liberals suggesting Medicare be turned into a voucher program benefiting insurance companies???
Congrats, in a thread full of ignorant statements you have taken the prize for the most ignorant.
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
2:23 pm
“You libs out there are always dissing the old in our society for hanging onto their Medicare and SS benefits”
That may be the pifflest of all piffle…..
kayaker 71
February 21st, 2011
2:23 pm
Rush told an interesting story about the Texas Demos who fled Texas during an electoral debate. They went to Armore, OK, just across the state line. Rick Perry sent the Texas state patrol after them but the Demo Oklahoma governor would not let the Texas troopers cross the state line. So Perry just canceled their govt credit cards which were paying for all of their rebellion against the State House, including the bus that took them there. When they had to foot the bills themselves, it took them only a day or two for them to come to their senses.
getalife
February 21st, 2011
2:23 pm
There is a global youth movement fighting for jobs and the cons are fighting to take jobs.
Create not take cons .
Focus.
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
2:25 pm
Little-Noticed Provision In Walker’s Bill Could Reap Huge Gains For Koch Industries
Those Republicans just cannot seem to snort enough of that Koch.
getalife
February 21st, 2011
2:25 pm
kay,
rush.
Seriously.
Do you have your own brain?
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
2:26 pm
“Gov. Walker ran on a platform of restoring the budget of Wisconsin and he is only doing what he said he would do and what the voters elected him to do”
Did he campaign on a platform of union busting?
Normal
February 21st, 2011
2:26 pm
Dems are the government shut downers, not Republicans. And that’s true at the national level too.
jm,
don’t remember ‘95…? best thing that happened to Clinton…thank you Republicans… ha, ha
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
2:26 pm
It must be opposite day for kayaker.
Observer
February 21st, 2011
2:26 pm
JM – Thanks I just feel they are all corrupt whether it’s a Dem,Rep,or I. I just hear the Dems say Obama is doing what he said he would do ex healthcare and the people voted him in to do it. Now I hear the Rep say the Gov is doing what he said he would do slash the budget and the people voted him in to do it.
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
2:28 pm
TaxPayer…looks like you are having some reality denial problems…just sayin
I don’t think you’re being very realistic.
Ragnar Danneskjöld
February 21st, 2011
2:28 pm
Dear Adam @ 10:36, ” taxes really don’t have anything to do with job creation.” The next three years ought to tell the tale, as Illinois has embraced leftist orthodoxy – raising taxes – and Wisconsin is reducing taxes. I’ll put my money on Wisconsin.
Dave R.
February 21st, 2011
2:29 pm
“And again, this is not JUST about balancing the budget. This is ALSO about union-busting.”
Fixed your typo, Jay. Not thanks needed.
Joe the Plutocrat
February 21st, 2011
2:31 pm
USMCDawg, and you know about “democratic vs un-democratic” organizations as a result of your (presumed) experience as a United States Marine? ditto “corruption”. as a Marine, what was your position on the Osprey? I hate to keep whipping a dead horse, folks; but the ENTIRE system is “corrup” and as we know from social studies, the United States is an “un-democratic” organization (for those keeping score, our form of government is a representative republic. in many ways, labor unions built the same way. if Americans want ‘democracy’ then need to move to Iraq (assuming they’re not among the 50,000 – 100,000 who are already there). isn’t “democracy” why we’ve spent 8 years and $2 trillion over there?
Dave R.
February 21st, 2011
2:32 pm
“don’t remember ‘95…? best thing that happened to Clinton…thank you Republicans… ha, ha”
Be careful what you might wish for, Normal.
Different times and different circumstances. Just sayin’. . .
John Birch
February 21st, 2011
2:34 pm
Jay – Did Obama campaign on sending 50,000 troops to Afghanistan, keeping Gitmo open, keeping Bush tax cuts for the wealthy,etc, etc, etc?
@@
February 21st, 2011
2:34 pm
Honk if I need [an] Education
When HE and all else fails….
Too funny!
ronald
February 21st, 2011
2:36 pm
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
2:13 pm
Well said, Left Wing. I feel like intellectual progress is being made here. I too, applaud efforts to encourage people to seek out these types of careers and I understand that taxpayers benefit from the services they provide. Perhaps the difference in where you are and where I am can be boiled down to “what is an appropriate way to compensate such a group?” I would argue that when you’ve gotten to the point where they receive benefits that are greater than what taxpayers receive, then you’ve gone too far. Because again, taxpayers fund their own retirement accounts via 401k. I, as a taxpayer, don’t agree that I should pay for something for them to enjoy that I don’t have myself.
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
2:38 pm
ronald
“I would argue that when you’ve gotten to the point where they receive benefits that are greater than what taxpayers receive, then you’ve gone too far”
But they are not.
see link at 2:19
Normal
February 21st, 2011
2:38 pm
Different times and different circumstances. Just sayin’. . .
True, but the results will be the same as ‘95. It’s political suicide to mess with a persons Social Security check. Make it late, make them mad…just sayin’
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
2:38 pm
“Because again, taxpayers fund their own retirement accounts via 401k. I, as a taxpayer, don’t agree that I should pay for something for them to enjoy that I don’t have myself.”
You fund your 401(k) with money paid to you by your employer. The public employees retirement funds are “contributed” by THEIR employer.
BOTH of you are getting compensation in the form of contributions to a retirement fund. No difference.
kayaker 71
February 21st, 2011
2:39 pm
Wow. Just saying what a lot of you have been posting during all of these “govt benefits” threads seem to evoke a lot of criticism. I have seen post after post on this and CT’s threads about the evil Tea Party old white haired fossils who are living examples of those who are refusing to give up their SS and Medicare benefits yet preach to others as to how they think that all of the “entitlements” that the old receive are somehow not justified. I have quit counting the posts that criticize the SS benefits that we have paid into since our teens as somehow unjustified for their recipients. And Medicare…… it is the favorite whipping boy of those who feel that the old somehow are such a drag on our society that prioritizing care to them is a favorite thread in Bozo’s health fiasco. Those who are the most critical seem to forget that someday, if they are fortunate, they will also be old. So here’s to all of those like Blue Man on a Red Island who think that ignorant only comes in Republican slices. And as for you, Bookman, yes…… many of your favorite buddies on this post and on CT’s blog continually are critical of SS and Medicare benefits paid to the old. I see it every time these subjects arise. So don’t get your drawers all in a wad…..
ronald
February 21st, 2011
2:40 pm
Taxpayer says “Then you don’t agree with anything I said. Those union workers are not “retards”. They were hired to do a job and they do it and they are willing to work with the Republicans to solve a financial problem but not to break up their union. Walker and his Republican cronies are cowards. Republicans have union envy.”
Not to get too off subject here, but are they really doing their jobs, as you say? Because what I see is kids in Wisconsin sitting at home, because the teachers are refusing to do thier jobs (while they continue to get paid, by the way). I can’t think of a more fitting definition of selfishness than what they are displaying.
Now, when you say Walker and his “cronies” are cowards….how so? Walker is still in Wisconsin and has laid out his plans. Thats not cowardice, thats leadership. The Democrats running away to hide in a dark closet in Illinois…..that is cowardice.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
2:41 pm
“Because what I see is kids in Wisconsin sitting at home”
today is President’s Day
Dave R.
February 21st, 2011
2:41 pm
Granny, as usual, your link at 2:19 is the equvalen of “there are lies, damned lies, and statistics”.
And the portion these people in Wisconsin pay for their benefits is far, far lower than the equivalent portion the private sector pays for theirs.
Jay
February 21st, 2011
2:42 pm
John Birch, you’re adding to the silliness:
“Jay – Did Obama campaign on sending 50,000 troops to Afghanistan, keeping Gitmo open, keeping Bush tax cuts for the wealthy,etc, etc, etc?”
Let’s see. Yes, he did campaign on refocusing attention and resources of Afghanistan. On the latter two points, he has been forced to keep Gitmo open and extend the tax cuts because he is not a dictator and needs congressional approval for those moves.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
2:42 pm
“Madison schools closed Monday; teachers vote to return to work Tuesday”
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/education/local_schools/article_d4bd62ac-3d3f-11e0-960d-001cc4c002e0.html
ronald
February 21st, 2011
2:43 pm
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
2:38 pm
I’ll agree to disagree with that point.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
2:43 pm
“he has been forced to keep Gitmo open ”
and he even signed an order to close the GITMO detention center, but Congress will not fund it.
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
2:44 pm
I can’t think of a more fitting definition of selfishness than what they are displaying.
Think Walker and his Republican cronies.
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
2:45 pm
Dave R
“And the portion these people in Wisconsin pay for their benefits is far, far lower than the equivalent portion the private sector pays for theirs.”
and you can document that?
love for ya’ too.
ronald
February 21st, 2011
2:45 pm
“today is President’s Day”
And what about last week? Was that president’s day, too? No…. that was “Union teachers lie about being sick and get fake doctor’s notes” week….That one isn’t on the calendar, by the way. And what a lesson to send to school kids….that lying is OK when you’re a grown up..
Dave R.
February 21st, 2011
2:45 pm
“On the latter two points, he has been forced to keep Gitmo open and extend the tax cuts because he is not a dictator and needs congressional approval for those moves.”
Nice punt, Jay. There was nothing to keep Hope & Change from keeping his promises on these two, except for a lack of courage and conviction.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
2:46 pm
“And what a lesson to send to school kids”
Yep. They’re getting a priceless education in democracy in action
WillieRae
February 21st, 2011
2:46 pm
Collective bargaining is the problem. The costs are just symptom. Why fix one and leave the other alone? As usual, the liberal solution is just to raise some more taxes. Anyone thinking about the tens of millions of citizens who have seen the value of our homes fall by a quarter and our incomes shrink from the great recession? Anyone wonder why the fiscal crisis has occured now and not five years ago?
Do democrats anywere have any solution except to raise taxes?
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
2:47 pm
Thanks, ronald, and good on you for being willing to concede a point.
Unfortunately have to head out now, but happy to continue this later if you’re around.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
2:48 pm
“Do democrats anywere have any solution except to raise taxes?”
Yep…I do. Cut the DOD budget in half.
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
2:48 pm
During the 2010 election cycle, Walker received $43,000 from the Koch Industries PAC, his second-largest contribution. The PAC also gave significantly to the Republican Governors Association, which in turn helped out Walker considerably in his race. Koch also contributed $6,500 to support 16 Republican legislative candidates in the state.
The Koch-funded group Americans for Prosperity has also been standing with Walker throughout his budget battles, busing in Tea Party activists and launching the site, Stand With Walker. After the election, Walker and other Republican governors received guidance from the American Legislative Exchange Council, a group that is also funded by Koch dollars and has pushed anti-union measures.
Republicans snort WAY too much Koch. I think I see the brothers Koch’s big toes hanging out of Walker’s nose.
Jay
February 21st, 2011
2:49 pm
Really, Dave R?
Please. Give us all the benefit of your many years of constitutional scholarship and explain how Obama can do those things without congressional approval.
Illuminate us, sir.
Normal
February 21st, 2011
2:52 pm
ronald
February 21st, 2011
2:45 pm
ronald,
you are clutching at straws…none of this would be necessary if the Governor would act like a reasonable man.
Joe the Plutocrat
February 21st, 2011
2:52 pm
TaxPayer, is that true? well what do you know? sounds like maybe the Koch Industries has its own little CBA. oh that’s right, when a public sector labor union attempts to “bargain” it’s un-American and corrupt, but when any other (private sector) interest “bargains” with public sector agencies, it’s ‘free market capitalism at work. jm, with all due respect, Mick is right, what is your obsession with “the left” when it comes to corruption? as if the GOP or any of its “base” in the “industrial” side (banking, oil, mining, defense, insurance, pharm, etc.) is “pure”?
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
2:55 pm
These Republicans (short for conservatives of all stripes whether it be a so-called Independent or Libertarian or Constitutional or your not-so-average Joes or whatever) sure are showing off their union envy big time today on here. It’s terrible. The next thing you know, they’ll demand that the union folks pay more taxes than they do.
Dave R.
February 21st, 2011
2:57 pm
“and you can document that?”
Not now, but maybe later. Can only speak to my own experiences. I’m paying about 50% of my medical benefits now. In past jobs the percentage was in the 30%-50% range. Even the county I used to be a commissioner in the employees paid about 25% of the cost.
A blast from the past 2010
February 21st, 2011
2:57 pm
New York Pension Scandal: Some Collect More in Benefits Than Final Salary
In Yonkers, more than 100 retired police officers and firefighters are collecting pensions greater than their pay when they were working. One of the youngest, Hugo Tassone, retired at 44 with a base pay of about $74,000 a year. His pension is now $101,333 a year.
According to pension data collected by The New York Times from the city and state, about 3,700 retired public workers in New York are now getting pensions of more than $100,000 a year, exempt from state and local taxes.
Roughly one of every 250 retired public workers in New York is collecting a six-figure pension, and that group is expected to grow rapidly in coming years, based on the number of highly paid people in the pipeline.
http://seekingalpha.com/article/206624-new-york-pension-scandal-some-collect-more-in-benefits-than-final-salary
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
2:59 pm
Dave R
You were a county commisioner in WI?
The link at 2:19 is about WI and it does not support your opinion.
Dave R.
February 21st, 2011
3:00 pm
“Please. Give us all the benefit of your many years of constitutional scholarship and explain how Obama can do those things without congressional approval.”
Jay, stop being so dense (if that is possible for you).
Once again, he had a solid, unstoppable majority in each house of Congress for TWO years. Did he ever try? Nope. He announced he would. Then he punted.
Just like you.
Tool.
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
3:03 pm
“, he had a solid, unstoppable majority in each house of Congress for TWO years.”
also not a fact
Tool Time
February 21st, 2011
3:04 pm
That’s right, Jay. Quit being so dense. How dare you expect some folks on here to back up their words.
Jay
February 21st, 2011
3:06 pm
Gee, all those years of constitutional scholarship, gone to waste like that.
Such a shame.
Normal
February 21st, 2011
3:07 pm
Tool Time
February 21st, 2011
3:04 pm
tee, hee, hee…
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
3:08 pm
“He announced he would”
And you actually BELIEVED him? How naive.
Priceless Republicans
February 21st, 2011
3:10 pm
I Object. Obama was never unstoppable at least not while I was around, objecting. I even objected to my objections. Then we had those that said NO! Even one that said You lie. We’ll do anything for a corporate buck.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
3:10 pm
Now here we are discussing truly trivial stuff like union busting, when the REAL issue of the day is why Bo Derek isn’t going to the opera!
“Report: Austrian drops Bo Derek as Opera Ball date”
http://www.accessatlanta.com/celebrities-tv/report-austrian-drops-bo-846467.html?cxntlid=thbz_hm
0311/0317 - 1811/1801
February 21st, 2011
3:13 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOYus1BE7jk
Normal
February 21st, 2011
3:13 pm
Gaddafi is bombing his own cities…hope Walker isn’t watching…
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
3:14 pm
“LIBYA –
2:15 p.m. ET – Two Libyan Air Force pilots defected to Malta on Monday after being asked to bomb Libyan citizens, a Maltese government source said. The pilots’ fighter jets were armed with rockets and loaded machine guns, the source said. Malta is a short flight from Libya”
http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2011/02/21/live-blogging-north-africa-middle-east-protests/?hpt=T1
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
3:14 pm
Doggone/GA
it could get messy if the orchestra played Ravel’s Bolero…..
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
3:16 pm
“Ravel’s Bolero”
I love that music, but I have never heard a version to even rival the one where Ravel himself conducted. The tension in the music that he coaxed out of the orchestra is spine tingling
Southern Comfort (E.O.I.)
February 21st, 2011
3:16 pm
Granny, as usual, your link at 2:19 is the equvalen of “there are lies, damned lies, and statistics”.
Dave, not to jump the subject, but I guess you’re gonna walk your fellow conservatives back for the bs they were talking earlier then. The whole “Taxpayer money going to pay union dues crap…” That has, by far, gotta be the most stupid crap I’ve ever heard someone here use as the basis of an argument. If that were truly the case, then taxpayers are paying teacher’s utilities, groceries, car notes, mortgates, and everything else they pay with the money they earn for their labor. I know you and your fellow conservatives hate public workers and/or their unions, but if you’re gonna argue a point using statements such as that, your argument doesn’t even stand up to basic logic, much less any level of truthfulness.
ronald
February 21st, 2011
3:18 pm
Tomorrow’s headlines: Union teacher’s go home and do their jobs. Hooray for school kids. Union Reps and Donna Brazille continue to protest….ride into town square on camels.
Southern Comfort (E.O.I.)
February 21st, 2011
3:19 pm
Joe @ 2:52 pm
Do you really expect an honest answer from jm on that topic? Big business can do no wrong!!! Bravo for that post!!!!
Midori
February 21st, 2011
3:25 pm
Normal @ 3:13 —
Southern Comfort (E.O.I.)
February 21st, 2011
3:26 pm
Not now, but maybe later. Can only speak to my own experiences. I’m paying about 50% of my medical benefits now. In past jobs the percentage was in the 30%-50% range. Even the county I used to be a commissioner in the employees paid about 25% of the cost.
And would you believe that this here public union member and government worker is paying over 40% of his medical benefits. Not to mention, my retirement is actually doing good because I took all my money out of government bonds at the end of the 2nd quarter of 2009, and I’ve been able to ride the markets all the way back up. In other words, that means, I’m investing MY earned money to support my retirement and not sitting on some imaginary “fat taxpayer-funded pension” as many believe all government workers have.
While you and your fellow conservatives are railing about public union members and budgets, you should be taking your congressmen to task as well. There has been no signs of a pay freeze in either the legislative or judicial branches of the government, but Obama has exec-ordered a freeze on us. Makes you wonder…….
Midori
February 21st, 2011
3:27 pm
another headline: Ronald proves once again he’s completely clueless
Southern Comfort (E.O.I.)
February 21st, 2011
3:31 pm
Republican Sen. Dale Schultz has floated a compromise to end the stalemate over Gov. Walker’s budget repair bill.
[...]
On Monday Walker rejected Schultz’s compromise. Walker said it would be a short-term fix to a long-term problem.
Walker wants to take away public workers’ rights to bargain over anything, except salary increases higher than the consumer price index.
Walker insists the changes to collective bargaining rules are needed to balance the state budget.
http://www.wuwm.com/programs/news/view_news.php?articleid=7867
Damn, even when a GOP Senator tries to negotiate an agreement….. Well, I’ll give Walker credit for one thing, he’s proven that he has no negotiation skills at all. If he did, he wouldn’t be so intent on killing the negotiation process.
Del
February 21st, 2011
3:32 pm
Off topic…we’re letting our people fight and die for a country such as this and we criticized the Mubarak regime and asked him to step down. Bring our people home from Afghanistan.
http://www.nationalreview.com/corner/260050/america-quiet-execution-afghan-christian-said-musa-paul-marshall
Dave R.
February 21st, 2011
3:33 pm
“Gee, all those years of constitutional scholarship, gone to waste like that.
Such a shame.”
As did all your years of journalism training . . .
Dave R.
February 21st, 2011
3:37 pm
“Dave, not to jump the subject, but I guess you’re gonna walk your fellow conservatives back for the bs they were talking earlier then. The whole “Taxpayer money going to pay union dues crap…” ”
Never bought into the facetious argument, SoCo.
I’m not Jay.
UAW Rules
February 21st, 2011
3:37 pm
Let me tell you how great unions are from my experience as a proud UAW member in the 70’s working at the engine plant in Brookpark Ohio.
Worked in the foundry for a few years. Everything going great….
Developed an issue with dust, couldn’t breath. Went to the doctors and got a medical excuse to not work around dust. Ford and the UAW put me on medical leave for 13 months.
Between Ford’s medical/disability benefits and the UAW’s disability benefits, I made more setting at home those 13 months that I did working 40+ hours a week.
Now after 13 months I had to go back to work. Not a problem, Ford had an opening where I did not have to go back to the foundry. Same pay but it was a lot more physically demanding job. This got real old after about 6 months so I went to the union (the great UAW!!) and wanted to change jobs. The only job that I could take from someone else, due to my seniority, was back in the foundry. Guess what, I took that job!
3 months later I went and got me another medical excuse and got to go home for 13 more months. Again, making more than I was while I was working.
This cycle repeated itself for almost 8 years. Then I went back to school, got an education and found a job I could be proud of.
God Bless the UAW.
Yep them there unions sure do protect the employees from those big bad companies!
@@
February 21st, 2011
3:38 pm
And Obama’s promise to exclude lobbyists from policymaking jobs?
More than 40 former lobbyists work(ed) in senior positions in the Obama administration, including three Cabinet secretaries and the CIA director. Yet in his State of the Union address, Obama claimed, “We’ve excluded lobbyists from policymaking jobs.”
Did Obama speak falsely?
Well, it depends on what the definition of “excluded lobbyists” is.
When asked if Obama had chosen his words poorly, the media affairs office defended Obama’s statement: “As the President said,” a spokeswoman wrote in an e-mail, “we have turned away lobbyists for many, many positions.”
So, the country may have heard, “we haven’t hired lobbyists to policymaking jobs,” but the White House tells us Obama meant, “we only hired some of the lobbyists who applied for policymaking jobs.” In other words, they’ve excluded some lobbyists.
Political speak…I did except when I didn’t? I didn’t except when I did? I was against it before I was for it? I lied but you weren’t supposed to notice?
0311/0317 - 1811/1801
February 21st, 2011
3:39 pm
Doggone:
You may have already heard this version …………..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3-4J5j74VPw
Dave R.
February 21st, 2011
3:39 pm
“also not a fact”
Unless your under the influence of mysterious mushrooms . . .
Southern Comfort (E.O.I.)
February 21st, 2011
3:41 pm
Never bought into the facetious argument, SoCo.
I didn’t say you bought into it. If you’re going to call out lies as you said earlier, why not call them on the ones coming from the right? I know you don’t follow the “it’s ok if you are a republican” logic, right?
It’s crap like that getting tossed around like truth that clouds this and many other political debates. I just brought that statement up because it’s bs and you were talking about lies, that’s all. I didn’t mean anything nefarious about it at all.
Dusty
February 21st, 2011
3:43 pm
Well, the schoolteachers and Democrats of Wisconsin decided to support their union first instead of their state and country. The governor is doing exactly what he was elected to do and that is cut state expenses. The Feds will have to do the same thing and the next election will also support a necessary national frugality.
Now is the time to decide whether you are going to support your state and government first or your union, your club, your society, or some other group.
No graphs, charts and arguments change that. Your actions speak louder than your words.
modantel
February 21st, 2011
3:45 pm
How many times has Wisconsin Governor Walker repeated his same old one-liners? – “We can’t negotiate -We’re broke” and, “Democracy.”
“Negotiate” and being “broke” are two separate entities – totally unrelated! – Anyone can “negotiate” – at anytime – It has nothing to do with his one-liner – “We’re broke.”- And, the “broke” part is largely of his own doing – giving tax breaks to corporations two weeks after his inauguration!
Gov Walker? Where is the “democracy” in stripping collective bargaining from our teachers and hard working public employees?!? – It is a basic human right?!! – This no longer 1888 – or 1932 or 1959! – Your “logic” has no place in DEMOCRACY!
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
3:45 pm
Dave R
mushrooms and granny
also not a fact
you got quite a streak going
MPercy
February 21st, 2011
3:45 pm
Southern Comfort @10:34 am For far too many years, the scenario has been, you support my demands, I will see that you get our votes. Kayaker, are you talking about the Chamber of Commerce or unions????
See, that’s exactly what I was talking about before. It’s only bad when the *other* guy does it, but in reality both groups are doing exactly the same thing and we should either accept it from both groups or argue against both.
Southern Comfort (E.O.I.)
February 21st, 2011
3:50 pm
See, that’s exactly what I was talking about before. It’s only bad when the *other* guy does it, but in reality both groups are doing exactly the same thing and we should either accept it from both groups or argue against both.
Amen!!!!! That’s one of my bedrock reasons for saying Walker and other GOPers are wrong for trying to do away with collective bargaining. As evident by the Citizens United ruling, they are not going to ask or legislate corporate money out of the political process, so why are they so intent on doing away with the opposition’s version of that funding? Sometimes, our elected officials are so friggin’ consumed with playing politics that they forget to govern and legislate effectively.
Mick
February 21st, 2011
3:51 pm
Why doesn’t the governor respect the fact that these people want to be represented by a union? There is no other issue here. When a governor wants to be a dictator, its time to go…
buck@gon
February 21st, 2011
3:52 pm
Leftwing Mgmt:
“As I wrote yesterday on Wingfield’s blog, there’s a reason we need to go an extra mile to ensure a measure of security for people who go into traditionally less lucrative lines of work – going into burning buildings, hauling trash, teaching children, delivering mail – in return for their foregoing more lucrative private careers.”
FYI Leftwing: The average salary overall in the private sector is approximately $41,000. FYI reminder: The average WI teacher salary is over 10% MORE than that. I’m thinking that these, aaahhh, “servants” aren’t forgoing the lucrative careers that you seem to think they are forgoing. I’ll leave it to you to figure out on your own the other glaring fact: that government employees everywhere get far sweeter and much more subsidized benies by far than most employees in the government.
Jay,
With all your time in office to research such things, I’ll take your word for it, that you know better than I do what Walker promised and what he did not. Question: Should it be the position of the government (and the President, by the way, who has weighed in on this STATE matter) to FORCE teachers to join unions as it does in Wisconsin?
Isn’t that the issue, or would you just rather use perjorative terms like “union busting”? Isn’t it relevant that in a right-to-work state like Georgia, we have higher pay?
Answer all questions, and don’t skip the first one, please.
@@
February 21st, 2011
3:53 pm
And what about Obama’s attack on McCain’s proposal to tax employees health care benefits? During the campaign, it was a bad idea. Now it’s pretty much guaranteed with Obamacare.
Guaranteed to everyone but unions. They’re exempt.
Dusty
February 21st, 2011
3:59 pm
The governor of Wisconsin is telling the truth. Truth is the supporting structure of democracy.
Southern Comfort (E.O.I.)
February 21st, 2011
3:59 pm
FYI Leftwing: The average salary overall in the private sector is approximately $41,000. FYI reminder: The average WI teacher salary is over 10% MORE than that. I’m thinking that these, aaahhh, “servants” aren’t forgoing the lucrative careers that you seem to think they are forgoing.
When you make broad comparisons like that, you are being intellectually dishonest. The private sector has a larger swath of job types, including fast food cashiers and such, that do not require a college degree. You may even get by with just a GED. Most of your public sector workers have college courses, and at least a bachelor’s degree. To boot, you don’t have comparable jobs in the public sector to match the largest group in the private sector, which is your retail clerks.
Dave R.
February 21st, 2011
4:00 pm
SoCo, I take enough time to point out the lies of the left. I’m busy enough as it is in that regard. You folks don’t need my help with the right.
No worries, though. It gave me another chance to dig at Jay.
Dave R.
February 21st, 2011
4:02 pm
“Why doesn’t the governor respect the fact that these people want to be represented by a union? There is no other issue here. When a governor wants to be a dictator, its time to go…”
Why do you always engage in hyperbole, Mick?
There is no indication that the governor feels that way, nor is there any indication that all teachers want to be represented by a union.
Chill.
Dusty
February 21st, 2011
4:02 pm
The governor of Wisconsin was just elected governor by a majority of Wisconsin citizens. He is not a dictator, just a governor following the wishes of most Wisconsin citizens.
0311/0317 - 1811/1801
February 21st, 2011
4:05 pm
Jay:
“On the latter two points, he has been forced to keep Gitmo open and extend the tax cuts because he is not a dictator and needs congressional approval for those moves.”
A couple of points:
1) If he knew during the campaign that he would not be in full control of these two areas, then why did he promise something he couldn’t produce?
He lied to get votes and for that he should not have been elected.
2) If he did “not know” during the campaign that he would “not” be in full control of these areas, then he knew little about how Congress and the Executive Branch function.
And for that he should not have been elected president.
TAKE YOUR CHOICE
Southern Comfort (E.O.I.)
February 21st, 2011
4:06 pm
No worries, though. It gave me another chance to dig at Jay.
On a serious note, I think it goes a long way when people from either side of the political spectrum makes an effort at least once or twice to try to tamp down the completely foolish stuff that is thrown from their respective camps.
Del
February 21st, 2011
4:07 pm
What we see in Wisconsin and in many other states is the combination of vote pandering politicians and unions that have pushed state public workers wages and benefit packages far beyond private sector middle class compensation. It’s bankrupting these states.The democrats and the unions just can’t grasp the fact that there just isn’t anymore money. There isn’t any reason for public sector unions except to benefit union leaders and politicians who benefit from union political support.
Jay
February 21st, 2011
4:08 pm
Under those standards, Scout, no candidate for president or governor or mayor could ever campaign on anything. It’s foolishness.
0311/0317 - 1811/1801
February 21st, 2011
4:09 pm
Headline: “REPORT: US warships box in Iranian flotilla”
Hummmm ……….. a little “sea chicken” going on here?
Is Obama going to get us into another war?
Another “Gulf of Tonkin” incident by a Democrat president ?
0311/0317 - 1811/1801
February 21st, 2011
4:10 pm
Jay:
No it’s not. He knew better and he lied.
0311/0317 - 1811/1801
February 21st, 2011
4:11 pm
Hummmm ……………………
Headline: “GALLUP: Number of Solidly Democratic States Cut in Half From ‘08 to ‘10 “
Vinny
February 21st, 2011
4:13 pm
You are full of it Jay. The graduation rate in Wisconsin is only 46% = PUBLIC EDUCATION HAS FAILED!!!
Jay
February 21st, 2011
4:13 pm
“What we see in Wisconsin and in many other states is the combination of vote pandering politicians and unions that have pushed state public workers wages and benefit packages far beyond private sector middle class compensation. It’s bankrupting these states.”
Nope. The two states facing the biggest budget deficits in 2012 (as a percentage of their 2011 budget) are Texas at 31 percent and Nevada at 45 percent. Neither allows collective bargaining by state employees.
0311/0317 - 1811/1801
February 21st, 2011
4:15 pm
Headline: “The burgeoning democracy movement across the Middle East appears to have caught al Qaeda off guard, and threatens to reduce the terror group to irrelevance, CNN terror analyst Paul Cruickshank finds.”
Are you kidding me? Any “true” Middle East democracy will make it easier for them to function.
Dusty
February 21st, 2011
4:15 pm
Del, you got that right.
“The Democrats and the unions just can’t grasp the fact that there just isn’t anymore money.”
Exactly. But the Wisconsin governor knows there is no money and he is working with that knowledge. A strong men, that one.
0311/0317 - 1811/1801
February 21st, 2011
4:18 pm
Jay:
“Nope. The two states facing the biggest budget deficits in 2012 (as a percentage of their 2011 budget) are Texas at 31 percent and Nevada at 45 percent. Neither allows collective bargaining by state employees.”
You can’t compare the above with Wisconsin ! There are dozens of factors involved; tax rates, population, budget history, etc., etc. Collective bargaining or not is just one factor.
Jay
February 21st, 2011
4:19 pm
Has the foolishness factory added another shift?
Vinny, the high school graduation rate in union-taught Wisconsin is 82 percent, and even higher by some estimates.
modantel
February 21st, 2011
4:19 pm
Wisconsin Governor Walker’s Budget Proposal to fix a deficit is TOTALLY WRONG!
When all of the multi-million $ bonuses were awarded to CEO’s of “Too Big to Fail” banks, after receiving federal stimulus money – did anyone ask them to pay more for health insurance – or pensions – or take away their “collective bargaining” rights? LOL – - Those culprits don’t even know the meaning of “collective bargaining!” – They just reward themselves, at anytime – with no questions asked – and no accountability! – However, in the state of Wisconsin, our new Governor believes that public employees are the problem – not big banks or big business! – And if he repeats this lie often enough, he gets a segment of the population that buys into it! – This is a tactic used by all DICTATORS – Repeat a lie often enough, and people will begin to believe it!
Jay
February 21st, 2011
4:19 pm
tell it to Del, Scout. He’s the one who made the claim. You two argue it out.
Del
February 21st, 2011
4:24 pm
Jay, I said many other states. You may want to take a look before commenting. Try California as one.
Dusty
February 21st, 2011
4:25 pm
Right, …1801
To connect collective bargaining with budget deficiences is a loooooooooooooooooog stretch.
0311/0317 - 1811/1801
February 21st, 2011
4:31 pm
Jay @ 4:13
No ………… Del’s statement is correct on its face in my opinion and your statement trying to counter it is an invalid assumption.
Del
February 21st, 2011
4:34 pm
Dusty, Walker campaigned on what he’s now doing in dealing with Wisconsin’s financial issue. The voters obviously agreed with him, so now we have some on here calling him a dictator.
Dusty
February 21st, 2011
4:36 pm
modantel
Did you know we are talking about the governor of Wisconsin who is trying to get the finances of THAT STATE in order? That he is doing it because there is not enough money now or in the future to pay for that state’s expenses?
Go rant and rave about rich people and CEOs and the stock market and dictators and stimulus money in your back yard. I doubt that you live in Wisconsin or ever followed a budget. Give it a little more thought, willya?
Mr. Right
February 21st, 2011
4:38 pm
Unions may have had their place in the the past but as usual when someone has power they normally overreach. You can’t hardly fire sorry performers and they drove wages so high that companies are outsourcing their jobs else where because it’s cheaper and then everybody screams ” Evil Companies” should not be allowed to do that! Bust the unions and save the country!!
Dusty
February 21st, 2011
4:42 pm
I know, Del. Wild & crazy scores points here. It is sorta a Bookman’s “Believe it or Not” by Democrats. They outdo Ripley every day.
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
4:43 pm
Walker really is the best Governor the Koch Brothers ever bought….
buried int eh budget bill is this little nugget
16.896 Sale or contractual operation of state-owned heating, cooling, and power plants. (1) Notwithstanding ss. 13.48 (14) (am) and 16.705 (1), the department may sell any state-owned heating, cooling, and power plant or may contract with a private entity for the operation of any such plant, with or without solicitation of bids, for any amount that the department determines to be in the best interest of the state. Notwithstanding ss. 196.49 and 196.80, no approval or certification of the public service commission is necessary for a public utility to purchase, or contract for the operation of, such a plant, and any such purchase is considered to be in the public interest and to comply with the criteria for certification of a project under s. 196.49 (3) (b).
Southern Comfort (E.O.I.)
February 21st, 2011
4:43 pm
Well, if the protests keep on going for a while, Wisconsin may not have a budget problem after all….
Madison business owners welcome protesters, and their money
There is at least one group of people happy with both Scott Walker and the pro-union protesters: Madison business owners.
Wisconsin’s budget crisis and the protests that have occurred during the past week have created tens of thousands of customers for Madison’s hotels, bars and restaurants.
Susan Schmitz, president of the economic group Downtown Madison Inc., said business has been booming all week for Madison shops.
“The restaurants, coffee shops and bars have been packed,” Schmitz said. “Some of the businesses have hardly been able to keep up with it, some of the restaurants have run out of food.”
“It’s a good thing,” she continued.
Union supporters have been calling in from all over the world to order food to be delivered to the protesters.
http://www.jsonline.com/news/wisconsin/116610553.html
And to think that all that business is coming because a few public sector workers got angry about something…..
0311/0317 - 1811/1801
February 21st, 2011
4:45 pm
Granny:
Are you in a “grandma’s” union ?
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
4:46 pm
Call Ian’s Pizza in Madison WI and have a pizza sent to the protesters….
Del
February 21st, 2011
4:46 pm
0311, thank you…Jay made the assertion that Texas and Nevada have the greatest state deficits. I haven’t checked that out but his assertion has nothing to do with the fact that many states beyond Wisconsin are faced with deep financial issues brought on by union negotiated state worker compensation packages that are driving them too far into the red. A liberal politician darling, MarioCuemo in New York is looking at doing what Walker’s doing in Wisconsin. The lib’s sure know how to dance to the left when they can’t make an argument.
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
4:48 pm
So Scout when and why did you go from Scout to 0311/0317 – 1811/1801?
And why?
Who do you think you are – Prince?
Dusty
February 21st, 2011
4:48 pm
Woo Granny, you still gathering Demo propaganda to dispense here? I thought you stopped. Oh well. New subject upstairs.
SoCo, I never heard of a storeowner who did not like more customers. I guess there was one good thing in this mess for Wisconsin. Yeah, school teachers strike to help business but not the state.
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
4:50 pm
I am in one union – with the greatest husband in the world.
Mr. G – You are the greatest!
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
4:52 pm
Dusty
Nope, just shoveling away the GOP propaganda……
still working to clean up the mess you guys made.
Hope all is well with you and yours.
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
5:04 pm
Buck@gon: FYI Leftwing: The average salary overall in the private sector is approximately $41,000. FYI reminder: The average WI teacher salary is over 10% MORE than that. I’m thinking that these, aaahhh, “servants” aren’t forgoing the lucrative careers that you seem to think they are forgoing.
Well, I’m no math genius but a 10% higher salary than $41,000 is still in the mid-40k range, hardly ‘lucrative’ by most people’s standards. But, again, what you like so many on here are missing is the obvious conclusion to be drawn from the private-public comparison, which is: .
If private salaries and bennies now appear increasingly modest compared to their (often unionized) government counterparts, that does not mean that public workers are greedy but rather that the profiteers at the top of the wage food chain are!.
Your resentment towards the public workers is a resentment that has been instilled in you by the Limbaughs / Koch bros. / Murdochs of the world who want you to view things that way because that will ensure the continuation of the status quo. What’s the status quo? It’s flattening wages for the middle-class and workers even as profits soar.
I’ll leave it to you to figure out on your own the other glaring fact: that government employees everywhere get far sweeter and much more subsidized benies by far than most employees in the government.
They do, there’s no question about is, and one of the main reasons is that they have union representation. So – to repeat – the thing to do is not to get resentful towards public workers, which is misplaced, but to re-direct your resentment to its proper target: rapacious financiers on Wall St. and CEOs who in many cases are being paid hundreds of times the salaries of their workers. It is because of them and not decently paid public workers, that we are in the budget situation we are in.
If you’re still around: how does a 10%
Dave R.
February 21st, 2011
5:04 pm
” A liberal politician darling, MarioCuemo in New York is looking at doing what Walker’s doing in Wisconsin.”
That would be a liberal darling’s SON, Andrew Cuomo, Del.
Southern Comfort (E.O.I.)
February 21st, 2011
5:09 pm
eah, school teachers strike to help business but not the state.
Ever hear the term tax receipts tossed around? They are helping the state. They are actually doing one hell of a job too, considering they have money coming in, not just from Madison, but from all around the world. Maybe, you should send them a letter of thanks.
Jay
February 21st, 2011
5:09 pm
Del, it’s simple:
If union-negotiated employee pay raises are driving this problem, as you claim, then the six states that don’t allow union negotiating ought to be in better shape than their peers. That’s the whole point of your argument, right? You believe that if you end collective bargaining, as Walker is trying to do, the financial situation improves.
Except it doesn’t. Texas and Nevada are two of only six states that don’t allow collective bargaining. Yet they’re among the worst in the bunch. (BTW, I was wrong earlier in stating that they’re the two worst. I was going off memory. Actual data below).
Here are the six states that ban collective bargaining by state employees, and their ranking among the 44 states that face 2012 budget deficits:
1. Nevada (45 percent)
4.) Texas (31.5 percent)
10.) North Carolina 20 percent)
13.) South Carolina (17.4 percent)
17.) Virginia (14.8 percent)
29.) Georgia 10.3 percent)
Five of the six states perform below the median. Only one, Georgia, performs above the median. Apparently, union-negotiated salaries aren’t driving states into deficit.
Tweets that mention In Wisconsin battle, it’s not about the budget | Jay Bookman -- Topsy.com
February 21st, 2011
5:12 pm
[...] This post was mentioned on Twitter by Amos Posner, Jay Bookman AJC. Jay Bookman AJC said: In Wisconsin, organized labor senses a fight for its survival; http://bit.ly/fjHhG3 [...]
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
5:23 pm
Del, et al.
Oh and about that argument you folks were making about low educational outcome quality and unionization, Diane Ravitch debunks that canard here in arguing that the situation in WI is actually symptomatic of much larger problems in our treatment of teachers today (a desperate situation which, as in so many areas, the Obama administration has done its part to misunderstand and aggravate):
The uprising in Madison is symptomatic of a simmering rage among the nation’s teachers. They have grown angry and demoralized over the past two years as attacks on their profession escalated.
The much-publicized film “Waiting for ‘Superman’” made the specious claim that “bad teachers” caused low student test scores. A Newsweek cover last year proposed that the key to saving American education was firing bad teachers.
..
There has recently been a national furor about school reform. One must wonder how it is possible to talk of improving schools while cutting funding, demoralizing teachers, cutting scholarships to college, and increasing class sizes.
The real story in Madison is not just about unions trying to protect their members’ hard-won rights. It is about teachers who are fed up with attacks on their profession. A large group of National Board Certified teachers — teachers from many states who have passed rigorous examinations by an independent national board — is organizing a march on Washington in July. The events in Madison are sure to multiply their numbers.
http://www.cnn.com/2011/OPINION/02/20/ravitch.teachers.blamed/index.html
Mick
February 21st, 2011
5:29 pm
dave r
No hyperbole, just an opinion which goes to the core of the problem. People can hate unions all they want but when 60-70k get together to voice their objection, I say give them a seat at the table. Walker may think that he is being strong but he is more similar to the pharaoh – obstinate.
Adam
February 21st, 2011
5:29 pm
MPercy @ 1:46. My bad on that one. I thought we were talking about public votes (like in the Senate) not union member votes.
Adam
February 21st, 2011
5:40 pm
Dave R: LOL, Jay! The case supporting Walker has never been stronger, because it is based on FACTS.
Someone missed all the tables and graphs above. Or perhaps he just didn’t read them. Or perhaps he still believes that certain things are facts when they aren’t facts and ignores the facts he doesn’t like. It’s hard to tell where the logical fallacies come in with him lately.
Dave R: Love to see what basic rights are being taken away. Not that I expect any answer based on the Constitution, mind you, which is the guarantor of rights in this country.
I’ve answered this one already, Constitutionally, many times. No need for me to “rehash” it, as you like to say. No need to thank me or anything…
Ragnar: The next three years ought to tell the tale, as Illinois has embraced leftist orthodoxy – raising taxes – and Wisconsin is reducing taxes. I’ll put my money on Wisconsin.
And I think they’ll both do equally well or poorly regardless. There are other factors that matter more and have more influence, which is the point I was trying to make. My money is on both of them flowing with the tide of the national economy.
MPercy
February 21st, 2011
5:59 pm
AmVet @12:25 pm “This is how the cycle works: Public Sector Unions give 99% of contributions to Democrooks.” Incorrect.
AmVet is right, it’s more like 98%, not 99%…the 5% that NEA gives to Rs is not quite offset by the 100% that SEIU gives to Ds.
I’ve no reason to believe that opensecrets.org is wrong in their data:
Rank Organization Total ‘89-’10 Dem % Repub % Tilt
1 ActBlue $50,010,524 99% 0%
2 AT&T Inc $46,077,005 45% 53%
3 American Fedn of State, County & Municipal Employees $43,337,561 99% 0%
4 National Assn of Realtors $38,628,441 56% 43%
5 Goldman Sachs $33,360,252 39% 60%
6 American Assn for Justice $33,047,779 97% 2%
7 Intl Brotherhood of Electrical Workers $32,930,966 98% 1%
8 National Education Assn $32,021,910 93% 5%
9 Laborers Union $30,106,550 96% 3%
10 Carpenters & Joiners Union $29,154,808 88% 11%
11 Service Employees International Union $29,139,982 100% 0%
12 Teamsters Union $29,126,809 97% 1%
13 American Federation of Teachers $28,731,591 99% 0%
14 Communications Workers of America $28,273,156 97% 1%
15 Citigroup Inc $27,974,371 46% 52%
16 American Medical Assn $27,442,570 54% 45%
17 United Auto Workers $26,949,252 99% 0%
18 Machinists & Aerospace Workers Union $26,170,977 98% 1%
19 National Auto Dealers Assn $26,156,258 46% 53%
20 United Food & Commercial Workers Union $25,226,733 99% 0%
MPercy
February 21st, 2011
6:19 pm
Doggone/GA @1:37 pm “But when you’re elected to office, your job is to represent your voters. And Dems have abdicated that responsibility.” and I would say they are doing an exceptionally GOOD JOB of that representation, by preventing the passage of a bad bill
See, and that’s what I was saying about the Senate Republicans who tried hard to prevent the passage of that other bad bill…I don’t recall your opinion of that being quite the same. I don’t recall the Rs of the Senate, however, fleeing the jurisdiction to prevent a quorum, they simply voted No when given the opportunity.
0311/0317 - 1811/1801
February 21st, 2011
6:19 pm
Del:
Exactly ! Smoke & Mirrors when they have nothing else.
0311/0317 - 1811/1801
February 21st, 2011
6:20 pm
Granny:
I did the new handle so I can find my posts a lot easier when I scroll but I’m still old “Scout”.
I announced it way back.
Adam
February 21st, 2011
6:20 pm
MPercy: It makes sense though, Republicans have been trying to get rid of unions regardless of which union it is for quite some time now. Why would I give my money to someone who wants my destruction? Just for the sake of appearing to be unbiased?
0311/0317 - 1811/1801
February 21st, 2011
6:22 pm
Mr. G. …………. you must have the patience of Job !
Adam
February 21st, 2011
6:25 pm
Also MPercy: The quorum thing might not work in the US Senate the same way it does in the Wisconsin State Senate. In any case The Rs did a good job of representing their own interests quite well. After successfully running the propaganda machine AGAINST health care reform, they did try to block a bill that was and is still seen as having things that it doesn’t have (such as death panels).
Misinformation went a long way toward shaping public opinion in that case and we’ll never really know if the Rs were representing their constituents OR if they had a concerted effort to do what they wanted and make the public see it their way through the misinformation.
In a way, we see the same kind of tactic in use in Wisconsin: blaming a budget crisis on something unrelated in an attempt to garner public opinion against something that the Rs wanted gone anyway. It’s just a tactic to get the public to continue voting them in while they continue to do whatever the heck they want, bit by bit.
MPercy
February 21st, 2011
6:26 pm
Left wing management @1:48 pm The 401 [sic, i suspect 401(k) was meant here] solution, to start with, is laughable after the gutting of Wall St regulation and the market crashes of recent years
Not at all. You seem to be under the impression that only Wall St. products can be bought in a 401(k). My 401(k) allows me to invest everything I save by investing into US Treasuries bond fund, as does my IRA (with an IRA you have tons more freedom).
MPercy
February 21st, 2011
6:33 pm
Jay @1:51 pm To MPercy: I do not know how they can make it any more explicit. The conservative reluctance to admit that fact demonstrates just how weak their case has become.
At least when I called out the question, when I was given some feedback that it was indeed the case, apparently, then I retracted that part of my comments. I still wonder what “doing our fair share” meant, but hey, so be it.
But I still get called out by our host and lumped in with other “conservatives” who show reluctance to admit a “fact” (I’ll accept as fact that something was said, but reserve my right to suspect perhaps, just perhaps, they were not really meaning the words they said).
Oh well.
Jimmy Hoffa, where are U?
February 21st, 2011
6:59 pm
“The bill would require most public workers to pay half their pension costs – typically 5.8% of pay for state workers – and in many cases at least 12% of their health care costs.”
See, right there is what creates animosity against unions. I had to contribute a lot more than 5.8% for retirement, and way more than 12% for health insurance. When union memebers whine about something that most other people have to live with it doesn’t win ‘em many friends I’m afraid.
Jay
February 21st, 2011
7:10 pm
So Jimmy, if someone had written something similar to your post, something along the lines that CEOs get all these tens of millions of dollars while complaining that their taxes are too high, etc., would you respond by accusing them of wealth envy? I’m just trying to comprehend how one thing differs from the other.
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
7:11 pm
MPercy: “You seem to be under the impression that only Wall St. products can be bought in a 401(k).”
Ok, fair point. As you can imagine, though, my beef here is not entirely the matter of the wisdom of the investments from a financial standpoint but the subtle erosion in a sense of a social pact that it brings about. But again, I realize you and I are probably not going to agree on that anytime soon.
Erica
February 21st, 2011
10:42 pm
This is a biased post. The test scores are old and have since change.
http://www.act.org/news/data/10/states.html and http://www.commonwealthfoundation.org/policyblog/detail/2010-sat-scores-by-state are the most recent test scores.
Maine, Hawaii, and New York have collective bargaining and they are in the bottom five SAT scores. Florida, Tennessee, and Michigan are in the bottom five for ACT scores which also have collective bargaining.
Michael Wade
February 21st, 2011
10:50 pm
Teacher union dues expressly cannot be used for PACs in Indiana. Teachers must make seperate contributions to those. Agency shop, or forced proportional payments by non union members, is used to fund the cost of the negotiation process and that seems only fair to me.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
February 21st, 2011
11:10 pm
New Democrat slogan in Wisconsin:
“When the going gets tough, the weak get going……to Illinois.”
DueNothing
February 21st, 2011
11:13 pm
I’ll bet if a poll were done of all Wisconsin state workers you’d find that more than 50% of them vote Republican. I am including the police, fire and state troopers in that poll. I love how they cut their own throats.
Bill Orvis White
February 22nd, 2011
7:24 am
Fire all of them like the Honorable Ronald Wilson Reagan did with those lazy air traffic controllers. The reality is that Governor Walker needs to make cuts. He asked these spoiled teachers to make some sacrifice so that he can balance the budget and look for $avings. I say, FIRE THEM! There are millions of hard-working folk who could take their places. What a bunch of bums.
Then, don’t let those stupid liberal Dems back into their positions. IMPEACH THEM ALL! I pray that the Honorable Governor Walker NEVER BACKS DOWN!
I’m sick and tired of these radicals dictating to the rest of us!!!!!!
God Bless,
Bill
independent thinker
February 22nd, 2011
7:39 am
The union pension bonanza has to end somehow and some way. Gov. Walker is to be praised for taking on this tar baby,However he does himself a terrible disservice by exempting fire and police from his anti-collective bargaining program. They are the worst offenders. Just look at exploding pensions in Atlanta and NY City. for fire and police workers.
In NY City a fireman can retire after just twenty years of service, Their generous pensions have a $12,500 a year bonus at the end of the year. To get reelected, mayor Bloomberg agreed in a wave of post 9-11 sympathy for fire and police workers to give a vested $12,5000 pension bonus per year to existing workers to keep them on the job ( and gain votes)Now the bill is due for just that bag of goodies which is over 600 million dollars the city does not have. So just like Atlanta, the solution is cutting back on city services since city tax rates are among the highest in the country. Who loses with this Santa Clause attitude? the taxpayer and the public who these alleged servants serve.
We The People of the USA Need To Thank The Wisconsin 14 « streetvisuals
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12:15 pm
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