In Wisconsin battle, it’s not about the budget
You still can’t find a single Democratic state senator in the entire state of Wisconsin. All 14 of them remain in self-imposed exile in Illinois, and as long as they stay there, they can continue to prevent passage of a highly controversial bill that would sharply reduce benefits for teachers and other government employees and, more importantly, gut public labor unions.
It’s that second aspect of the bill that has drawn national and even international attention. As the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel reports:
The bill would require most public workers to pay half their pension costs – typically 5.8% of pay for state workers – and in many cases at least 12% of their health care costs. Union leaders have said they are willing to accept those concessions, which total nearly $330 million through June 2013.
Under the bill, the unions could not bargain over anything but wages, would have to hold annual elections to keep their organizations intact and would lose the ability to have union dues deducted from state paychecks. Employees would no longer have to automatically pay union dues, but could choose whether they want to do so.
In other words, the unions are willing to swallow the economic demands. If givebacks are necessary to help balance the state budget in a time of crisis, the employees say they’re willing to do their part.
However, Gov. Scott Walker has refused to accept that offer and also refuses to negotiate with labor or Democrats. He doesn’t see this merely as a chance to win an important battle against organized labor; he sees it as an opportunity to win the entire war, forever, by stripping state unions of most of their power and influence. And if he succeeds, the implications for the labor movement nationwide would be profound.
At the moment, only five states prohibit collective bargaining by teachers and other public employees, as the map below demonstrates. Georgia is one of the five. (Note: The right to bargain collectively does not imply the legal right to strike in many states.)
Teachers unions in particular have long been a favorite target of conservatives, with a lot of people blaming unions for poor classroom performance. So the map above made me curious: How does the ability of teachers to form unions and bargain collectively correlate to classroom performance? If strong teachers unions truly do hamper education, the five states that ban collective bargaining by teachers ought to rank fairly high in educational performance.
Here are the numbers for the five states in question, plus Wisconsin, on the National Assessment of Educational Progress, given annually across the nation to fourth and eighth graders.
Texas, North Carolina and Virginia are roughly at the national average. Georgia and South Carolina trail in most categories. Wisconsin does very well.
Here are the state rankings for average SAT scores for the six states in question:
Wisconsin 2
Virginia 33
North Carolina 39
Texas 45
Georgia 47
South Carolina 48
The numbers above might be a little misleading, given that most Wisconsin seniors take the ACT rather than the SAT. Then again, Wisconsin ranks second on the ACT as well.
– Jay Bookman
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618 comments Add your comment
ronald
February 21st, 2011
1:45 pm
The Unions are trying to make this seem like an uprising by the people.
In reality, it is an uprising of a small subset of our population, who are rising up AGAINST the people. Americans will realize that the economics of this battle is a zero-sum game pitting public union employees vs. the taxpayers who pay their salaries.
This union strategy only makes sense when the bulk of the population either belongs to a union or supports those who belong to a union. Neither of those are the case right now, and ultimately the court of public opinion will sway against them. Their fate is cast…..
Normal
February 21st, 2011
1:46 pm
ronald
February 21st, 2011
1:36 pm
I knew you’d come back with something like that, superior sounding and probable untrue, but you are like a lot of others here…you refuse to look at it from the other sides eyes and see what they see. That’s sad.
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:46 pm
“If it’s a bad bill…yes, I will”
You’ll be applauding them? Well. Never knew you were a Republican Doggone…..
MPercy
February 21st, 2011
1:46 pm
Adam @10:12 am There’s something wrong with open voting now? Actions have consequences and people SHOULD be held accountable. You’re acting like unions are mafias, and that’s just not the case.
Yes, we have secret ballots for a reason–to prevent intimidation. There are plenty of instances where the union got enough signatures to prompt a vote, then lost big time when the vote took place. The difference? Petitions are signed right in front of the union reps, votes are secret and deniable if personally pressured.
Anecdotal evidence of thuggery: When I was a teenager, my father negotiated for management of a large manufacturer against a large union every few years. I remember rocks being thrown through our windows. I know my father wore a bullet-proof vest to work everyday for years because of explicit written death threats–he kept it in the trunk of his car and put it on in the garage before he left the house and took it off when he got home, so as to keep this aspect hidden from his family (except I caught him changing one morning–I was admonished not to tell my mother).
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:47 pm
Unions versus the American People. The Unions, and Democrats, their enablers, will lose.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
1:47 pm
“Never knew you were a Republican Doggone…..”
And you still don’t know it.
Normal
February 21st, 2011
1:48 pm
There seems to be a new political schism out there that I call Corporate Communism…and I think ronald is one of them…
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
1:48 pm
ronald:
Ok, here’s an answer that won’t fit easily onto a bumper sticker.
You’re entangled in a line of thinking thinking with no basis in reality. The 401 solution, to start with, is laughable after the gutting of Wall St regulation and the market crashes of recent years. So that’s almost like telling someone to go through Vegas for their retirement plans.
As I wrote above, the crisis here is not about leeching public workers but about declining wages among workers in general in the face of greater productivity and increasing profits, soaring CEO pay (with little accountability to boot), more and more perks for corporations (tax payer funded of course), bailouts of reckless financiers, and the list goes on and on.
So this is a trumped-up, phony debate.
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
1:48 pm
jm
you don’t seem to care about much that doesn’t enrich you personally.
That’s why we won’t go RED. We didn’t in the 50’s we aren’t going to now.
My head’s held high, I do ponder where yours is.
WOODSTOCK MIKE
February 21st, 2011
1:49 pm
@Doggone/GA
You are incorrect. The elected officials that left the state have made it impossible for a Democrat to win any future election in Wisconsin.
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:49 pm
American Way: Barack Obama, cult figure of 2008, left behind by new anti-spending zeitgeist
Something momentous is happening in the United States right now and Barack Obama doesn’t get it. In Madison, Wisconsin last week, up to 40,000 public employees, organised by their unions, the Democratic party and the grassroots Organizing for America group that elected the president in 2008, gathered at the state capitol. Teachers left their classrooms, forcing schools to close.
Their objective? To rail against an attempt to balance the budget and curtail union power by newly-elected Governor Scott Walker, a Republican. The Democratic party’s response? Its state senators have fled Wisconsin to Illinois, dodging state troopers as they went, in order to prevent the budget being voted on. Obama branded Walker’s actions as an “assault on unions”.
It was Obama who crowed just after he entered the White House that “elections have consequences”. In Wisconsin last November, the consequences included the governorship, a Senate seat and the state senate and assembly all being lost by the Democrats.
Although you may have read about the Tea Party being a collection of fringe racists and lunatics, their activists in places like Wisconsin were mainly ordinary Americans sick to the back teeth with out-of-control spending.
Walker’s proposals are relatively modest ones for someone facing a $3.6 billion shortfall. He was elected on a platform of balancing the budget and he’s got to find the money to do that from somewhere.
Budget crises are brewing in Ohio, New Jersey and a slew of other states.
The protests in Wisconsin coincided with Obama presenting his new budget in Washington. Despite all his talk of moving to the centre and cutting the national debt, Obama showed he was utterly unserious about dealing with the US government’s catastrophic addiction to spending.
He cast aside the tough measures recommended by the bipartisan Deficit Commission he appointed and failed to tackle what everyone knows is the main financial drain – the big “entitlement” programmes of Social Security, Medicare (for the elderly) and Medicaid (for the poor).
What Obama proposed would do nothing more than slow down the rate of increase in the national debt. No responsible citizen would run their own household finances this way.
Depressingly, Obama’s calculation seems to be that he can talk a good game on the deficit and spout vacuous slogans like “winning the future”. He’ll leave it to Republicans to propose swingeing cuts in entitlement programmes and then suffer a backlash from frightened voters at the polls in 2012. At least, that’s what happened in 1996. But Obama does not seem to have noticed that 2012 is not 1996.
The fact that a president would use his own campaign foot soldiers to back public employees against their elected state government shows how distorted his priorities have become. Instead of confronting unions, as President Ronald Reagan did with the air traffic controllers in 1981 when he fired more than 11,000 of them, Obama is facilitating them.
In the freshman class of House of Representatives, there is a mood of revolution not dissimilar to that inside Governor Walker’s administration (to be clear: the crowds surrounding the state capitol are the forces of reaction).
Saturday’s package of $60 billion budget cuts, passed in the early hours, did not tackle entitlements. It did, however, set the stage for a confrontation with Obama that could well lead to a government shutdown, which last happened in 1995. Scenes like those in Wisconsin could soon be repeated in Washington.
Two figures in American politics right now are talking seriously about dealing with the federal spending crisis. One is Governor Mitch Daniels of Indiana who declared recently that the federal government was “morbidly obese” and needed “not just behaviour modification but bariatric surgery”.
It’s possible that this was also a gentle dig at Christie, a self-described “pretty fat” guy, who is the other. Christie spoke in Washington last week about how he was advised not to slash state programmes. “I had everybody telling me, Governor you can’t do it. Your approval ratings will go in the toilet. People love these programmes.” He ignored them and his ratings went up.
Both Daniels and Christie are being urged by conservatives to run for president. Both like plain talk on fiscal matters and favour action over words.
Obama, in the meantime, prefers fine words, careful positioning, fidelity to powerful Democratic interest groups. His failure to grasp what is happening in Wisconsin, underlines that the cult figure of 2008 is being left behind by the new zeitgeist.
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:50 pm
“That’s why we won’t go RED”
So. The House went Red by rigged elections? Ok….
Jay
February 21st, 2011
1:51 pm
To MPercy:
“We have been clear – and I will restate this again today – money issues are off the table. Public employees have agreed to Governor Walker’s pension and health care concessions, which he says will solve the budget challenge.”
– Mary Bell, head of the state teachers union
I do not know how they can make it any more explicit. The conservative reluctance to admit that fact demonstrates just how weak their case has become.
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
1:51 pm
jm,
Your link is to a blog with a .uk suffix. That’s bright enough for me to see.
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:52 pm
Jay, when Democrats commit political suicide by abrogating attempts to win elections in the growing part of the country, when they abrogate their responsibility as electors, when they take the side of special interests over taxpayers and voters, when they fail to do their job of managing the government in a fiscally sound way and voters hold them responsible for it, it is VERY HARD to have any sympathy for them if they get rocked in a future election.
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
1:52 pm
I predict Walker will start walking this back next week…..
Normal
February 21st, 2011
1:53 pm
Woodstock Mike,
I’ll bet that the Democratics will sweep Wisconsin come 2012.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
1:53 pm
“The elected officials that left the state have made it impossible for a Democrat to win any future election in Wisconsin”
time will tell
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
1:53 pm
Walker is a coward for threatening to lay off 6000 in Wisconsin and not following through with his threat. Typical Republican.
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
1:54 pm
“when Democrats commit political suicide by abrogating attempts to win elections in the growing part of the country, when they abrogate their responsibility as electors, when they take the side of special interests over taxpayers and voters, when they fail to do their job of managing the government in a fiscally sound way and voters hold them responsible for it”
but when a famous republican did it by sneaking out of a window it was ok?
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:54 pm
Jay 1:51 – that’s PR garbage. I’m sorry. It’s like Obama saying he is going to cut the deficit and isn’t growing spending. But he doesn’t want to count interest payments as part of the budget. And Social Security is ok. And he’s cutting because he’s freezing the budget at a level 25% elevated from 2 years ago.
Hogwash. The Dems have no credibility. Much less unions.
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:56 pm
Granny G 1:52 – you’re wrong. The Unions and Dems are going to lose this battle, and lose it big. And it will have national implications.
This is just a Chris Christie replica. Walker will win this and become more popular for it. He knows that, and he knows what he is doing is the right thing to do. So he won’t be backing down 1 inch.
USMC dawg
February 21st, 2011
1:56 pm
Unions are WRONG for America.
They are corrupt and anti-democratic in nature.
Message to Unions: The Party Is Over! Now you will have to face reality out in the REAL world.
Lesson: There are no guarantees in Life. Get over it!
This is Classic!:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4thvTkvbZjU
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
1:57 pm
“The Unions and Dems are going to lose this battle, and lose it big. And it will have national implications”
I think that’s entirely possible, and in fact I said it earlier. They may very well win this battle…but ultimately lose the war.
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:58 pm
Hell, all Walker is asking for is no collective bargaining on benefits. They can still haggle all day long on wages…. all he wants is straight up honest negotiations so taxpayers can see the costs instead of corrupt dirty unions and dems hiding huge benefits packages in legislation that will be paid by future generations of kids and workers for the lucky fat cat union employees.
Disgusting.
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
1:59 pm
Woodstock Mike: Oh, so you believe that balancing a budget is not that important. Ok, I understand your logic now…
You believe Walker is lying about the state’s financial position, correct??
Is it lying?
Remember, we’re in Orwellian territory where the very goal itself is to sow confusion and misinformation, to blur boundaries.
Put it this way. Somebody sets a house on fire and then cries “help! fire!”. He’s not strictly speaking lying by crying “fire!”, but what he’s engaged in is a campaign of untruth. So, we’re splitting hairs.
So when Walker cynically guts one side of his balance sheet (state revenues) for various conservative pet projects (corporate tax cuts, health savings plan boosts) and then turns around and claims: “hey, sorry, we’re broke”, that is the same as the guy who sets a house on fire and then tries to claim he’s just honestly responding to an emergency.
Bottom line: Yes, he’s lying.
jm
February 21st, 2011
1:59 pm
Doggone 1:57 – that’s why Christie has become more popular? Cause he’s winning the battle, and winning the war?…. ok whatever
Mick
February 21st, 2011
1:59 pm
jm
Who is your consituency? You berate obama, democrats, unions, yet you carry water for the rich and wealthy. Are they your brothers? Do you really think they give a damn about you? Just keep carrying that water, you’re very good for them..
ronald
February 21st, 2011
1:59 pm
Left Wing “You’re entangled in a line of thinking thinking with no basis in reality. The 401 solution, to start with, is laughable after the gutting of Wall St regulation and the market crashes of recent years. So that’s almost like telling someone to go through Vegas for their retirement plans.”
Leftwing, you still don’t get it. The question is not how good or bad a 401k is and this debate has nothing to do with Wall St. regulation. The question is why should public union emplyees enjoy a benefit (defined benefit pension plans) that the majority of taxpayers don’t enjoy. I’ve spelled this out for you 3 times now and you continue to change the subject. Answer THIS question. Why should taxpayers pay for a benefit for public union employees when the taxpayers themselves mostly don’t have that same benefit? Is that fair to you?
USMC dawg
February 21st, 2011
2:00 pm
GALLUP: Number of Solidly Democratic States Cut in Half From ‘08 to ‘10…
http://www.gallup.com/poll/146234/Number-Solidly-Democratic-States-Cut-Half.aspx?utm_source=alert&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=syndication&utm_content=plaintextlink&utm_term=Politics
The Original Get Real
February 21st, 2011
2:00 pm
To Mr. Bookman and the liberals on this blog, the unions are losing this battle big time in the eyes of the nation. It is on TV every night and the unions continue to come across as “bad news”. The democratic state senators that have fled the state and shunned their sworn responsibilities look even worse.
If anyone thinks that the unions are going to win this debate then you are so sadly mistaken.
jm
February 21st, 2011
2:01 pm
Democrats have slunk back to the only safe ghetto for their base. Corrupt unions and the ignorant. They will lose votes for this.
Poll: Should union bargaining rights be cut? - Handling Hard Times - The Orange County Register
February 21st, 2011
2:01 pm
[...] — Texas, Virginia, North Carolina, South Carolina and Georgia — ban collective bargaining (See this Atlanta Journal Constitution map and story on which states have collective bargaining for unionized government [...]
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
2:02 pm
jm
nope
Americans may not need unions as much as we used to but we remember
why they were formed.
we remember scabs and strike breakers and battles in the streets
we remember the triangle shirtwaist fire and the battle of blair mountain.
The American working class will prevail.
John Birch
February 21st, 2011
2:02 pm
Michele – I’m only blaming Jay for claiming Georgia’s low SAT scores are related to the illegality of collectve bargaining for teachers in this state, which is totally fabricated BS. I pointed out it’s much more closely related to 28% of our SAT takers being African American, who score lower on standardized tests, which for you may be an inconvenient truth, but it’s a fact nevertheless. Just check out some SAT numbers for yourself, they’re all available online, instead of spouting nonsense like Jay did today. BTW, I’m pro choice and I’m not a Republican.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
2:03 pm
“I’m only blaming Jay for claiming Georgia’s low SAT scores are related to the illegality of collectve bargaining for teachers in this state”
Except he didn’t do that
ronald
February 21st, 2011
2:03 pm
Jay says ” The conservative reluctance to admit that fact demonstrates just how weak their case has become.”
Jay- Asking public unions to pay for only HALF their pension contributions is just the beginning. I’m glad that they’ve agreed with that change and I acknowledge that they’ve conceeded this. But the pension story won’t stop there. Politicians like Walker and taxpayers like me will continue to push the issue until defined benefit pension plans for public union employees are done away with. There is no justification for taxpayers to provide union employees benefits that most taxpayers don’t also have.
Joe the Plutocrat
February 21st, 2011
2:04 pm
just wondering; if (all) “unions are corrupt”, with whom have they cultivated and nurtured these “corrupt” relationships? here’s a hint, the answer rhymes with POLITICIANS. don’t get me wrong, if the “corruption” exists between union leadership and the rank and file, who cares? again, anyone think corruption is the exclusive property of “unions”? this is a “no honor among theives” scenario a best.
John Birch
February 21st, 2011
2:04 pm
granny – How can the working class hope to prevail when the Repubs give our money to the rich and the Dems give it to the poor? No one represents us any more.
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
2:05 pm
If he stood for reelection today against one of the current Republican front runners Obama would almost certainly win the same number of electoral votes he did in 2008, if not more.
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
2:05 pm
Walker and his Republican cronies are all cowards. They have shown that they are not interested in balancing a budget. They want to take away the people’s basic rights. Power to the people.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
2:05 pm
“Why should taxpayers pay for a benefit for public union employees when the taxpayers themselves mostly don’t have that same benefit? Is that fair to you?”
Yes, it does. That is what came out of the bargaining, and that is what is in the contract. You want it changed? Then bargain a better deal for the taxpayers, don’t try to STRIP the bargaining rights away. BARGAIN in good faith.
jm
February 21st, 2011
2:05 pm
“yet you carry water for the rich and wealthy.”
I do nothing of the sort.
ronald
February 21st, 2011
2:06 pm
Taxpayer says “Power to the people”
I agree with you. However the “people” you speak of are the taxpayers, not the union retards who suck benefits at the taxpayer’s expense.
Kamchak
February 21st, 2011
2:06 pm
Politicians like Walker and taxpayers like me will continue to push the issue until defined benefit pension plans for public union employees are done away with.
Nope.
You won’t be satisfied until unions are gone for good.
Then you, just like talk-radio has programmed, will turn your attention to a new boogeyman.
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
2:07 pm
Democrats have slunk back to the only safe ghetto for their base. Corrupt unions and the ignorant. They will lose votes for this.
Wrong, jm. Power to the people.
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
2:07 pm
Well, with a name like John Birch you are going to have trouble getting support on anything….
Birchers, I have seen it written they think every body but themselves are commies….what a hoot.
John Birch
February 21st, 2011
2:07 pm
dog – Check your reading comprehension score! Is it a positive integer greater than one? If so, proceed. What does “How does the ability of teachers to form unions and bargain collectively correlate to classroom performance?” followed by showing the low SAT scores in the non-collective bargaining states mean to you?
Dave R.
February 21st, 2011
2:08 pm
” The conservative reluctance to admit that fact demonstrates just how weak their case has become.”
LOL, Jay! The case supporting Walker has never been stronger, because it is based on FACTS.
Not that facts matter to you . . .
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
2:09 pm
Did you know the Birchers though Ike was a commie?
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
2:09 pm
make that “thought”
Dave R.
February 21st, 2011
2:10 pm
” They want to take away the people’s basic rights.”
Love to see what basic rights are being taken away. Not that I expect any answer based on the Constitution, mind you, which is the guarantor of rights in this country.
jm
February 21st, 2011
2:10 pm
“Power to the people.”
Slogans….
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
2:12 pm
ronald
February 21st, 2011
2:06 pm
Taxpayer says “Power to the people”
I agree with you. However the “people” you speak of are the taxpayers, not the union retards who suck benefits at the taxpayer’s expense.
Then you don’t agree with anything I said. Those union workers are not “retards”. They were hired to do a job and they do it and they are willing to work with the Republicans to solve a financial problem but not to break up their union. Walker and his Republican cronies are cowards. Republicans have union envy.
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
2:13 pm
Ok, ronald.
Limitations of the medium here. Can’t address everything I want to and you want as quickly as I’d like. So here goes.
The question is why should public union employees enjoy a benefit (defined benefit pension plans) that the majority of taxpayers don’t enjoy.
In a single word, because of that most unconservative of concepts: service. It’s a concept that you’ll watch FOX news and listen to El Rushbo for many moons without hearing mentioned, and yet, it’s an utterly essential aspect of any civilized society.
As I wrote yesterday on Wingfield’s blog, there’s a reason we need to go an extra mile to ensure a measure of security for people who go into traditionally less lucrative lines of work – going into burning buildings, hauling trash, teaching children, delivering mail – in return for their foregoing more lucrative private careers. And it benefits us all to make sure people who are committed to doing such work have good reason to commit many years, if not entire careers, to that work. Hence the need to ensure for them some basic security, which is taxpayer funded, since the taxpayers are the direct beneficiaries of that service.
jm
February 21st, 2011
2:13 pm
The Dems and Unions should at least be honest and chant the truth: More Money and Future Opportunities to take from the public till for the Over-protected, impossible to fire, already Over Paid, Public Employees of Wisconsin!!!
Observer
February 21st, 2011
2:14 pm
Can someone please explain to me why this statement is ok for the Gov. of WI but not ok for the POTUS…….Gov. Walker ran on a platform of restoring the budget of Wisconsin and he is only doing what he said he would do and what the voters elected him to do. But the same people that agree with this for the Gov of WI will have a conniption and holler we need to take back our country when it’s appled to the President.
jm
February 21st, 2011
2:14 pm
Dave – Liberals are not prone to being focused on the facts, reality, truth or anything of the sort. The Constitution falls even further down their list of things worthy of consideration.
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
2:15 pm
Left WIng
” there’s a reason we need to go an extra mile to ensure a measure of security for people who go into traditionally less lucrative lines of work – going into burning buildings, hauling trash, teaching children, delivering mail – in return for their foregoing more lucrative private careers. And it benefits us all to make sure people who are committed to doing such work have good reason to commit many years, if not entire careers, to that work. Hence the need to ensure for them some basic security, which is taxpayer funded, since the taxpayers are the direct beneficiaries of that service.”
BRAVO! BRAVO!
Very well put.
We the people are our brothers keepers.
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
2:15 pm
You won’t see a Republican use “Power to the People” as a slogan because they’re not for the people. Unless you consider a corporation to be a person.
mvargas
February 21st, 2011
2:16 pm
Sure the unions have offered “concessions” but the collective bargining is not the main issue. To break the unions you have to get the “right to work” rules as well as the union having to collect dues outside just having the employer peel them out of the paycheck, and the unions will claim that they get to keep that if they also keep the collective bargining. They are offering nothing at the moment. Sure they take a small financial hit, but only until the millions in union dollars allow them to stack the school boards and negotiate new sweetheart contracts.
So far the republicans in the Wisconsin state legislature seem to realize this and if anything are becoming less willing to negotiate as the union displays its arrogance. Hopefully they will eventually get at least one democrap to show up long enough to vote and end this.
Of course, if Gov. Walker was smart he’d announce that the Democraps have 3 days to show up or he starts the layoffs. Put the onus on them to appear or the unions start seeing positions cut.
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
2:16 pm
Liberals are not prone to being focused on the facts, reality, truth or anything of the sort. The Constitution falls even further down their list of things worthy of consideration.
Wrong.
jm
February 21st, 2011
2:16 pm
Observer – Dems aren’t saying “we need to win the next WI election”. They’re trying to abrogate the results of the election by shutting down the WI government.
Dems are the government shut downers, not Republicans. And that’s true at the national level too.
The Republican House has passed a 2011 spending bill. Reed and the Dems have not and Reed is deliberately attempting to blame the Republicans even though the Senate is the problem.
As always, corrupt Dems.
kayaker 71
February 21st, 2011
2:17 pm
You libs out there are always dissing the old in our society for hanging onto their Medicare and SS benefits but you seem to have no trouble in backing teachers who, it appears, are eager to protect what they think is coming to them. I got mine, just don’t touch it. But we can take yours anytime we want. Seem fair?
jm
February 21st, 2011
2:17 pm
Taxpayer – “Wrong”
Right.
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
2:17 pm
Walker doesn’t have the guts to follow through with his lame threat to lay off 6000 workers. He’s a typical Republican coward.
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
2:18 pm
Of course I’m right, jm.
John Birch
February 21st, 2011
2:19 pm
granny – I prefer the limited government and personal freedom planks of the Birchers, not the extremist joe mccarthy stuff. Which part of breathing fire and stomping hopeless Japanese women and children to death do you associate with?
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
2:19 pm
Dems are the government shut downers, not Republicans. And that’s true at the national level too.
Wrong
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
2:19 pm
“already Over Paid, Public Employees of Wisconsin!!!”
speaking of facts, this isn’t one
In Wisconsin, which has become a focal point in this debate, public servants already take a pretty hefty pay cut just for the opportunity to serve their communities (Keefe 2010). The figure below shows that when comparing the total compensation (which includes non-wage benefits such as health care and pensions) of workers with similar education, public-sector workers consistently make less than their private–sector peers. Workers with a bachelor’s degree or more—which constitute nearly 60% of the state and local workforce in Wisconsin—are compensated between $20,000 less (if they just have a bachelor’s degree) to over $82,000 a year less (if they have a professional degree, such as in law or medicine).
The Original Get Real
February 21st, 2011
2:20 pm
TaxPayer…looks like you are having some reality denial problems…just sayin
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
2:21 pm
John Birch
Actually, in the end Godzilla became the good guy and saved Japan.
Keep up.
Jay
February 21st, 2011
2:22 pm
Did Scott Walker campaign on stripping unions of the right to collectively bargain on benefits and stripping them of the right to collect union dues through their paychecks?
No, he did not. But that is what he’s doing.
And again, this is not about balancing the budget. This is about union-busting. Those of you who refuse to believe what union leaders have explicitly and repeatedly stated — they accept the need for benefit cuts — are being irrational.
Blue Man on a Red Island
February 21st, 2011
2:23 pm
Kayaker @ 2:17 – What???? Show me one example of us “Libs” dissing anyone for hanging on to their SS or Medicare. Are liberals the ones claiming SS should be privatized??? Are liberals suggesting Medicare be turned into a voucher program benefiting insurance companies???
Congrats, in a thread full of ignorant statements you have taken the prize for the most ignorant.
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
2:23 pm
“You libs out there are always dissing the old in our society for hanging onto their Medicare and SS benefits”
That may be the pifflest of all piffle…..
kayaker 71
February 21st, 2011
2:23 pm
Rush told an interesting story about the Texas Demos who fled Texas during an electoral debate. They went to Armore, OK, just across the state line. Rick Perry sent the Texas state patrol after them but the Demo Oklahoma governor would not let the Texas troopers cross the state line. So Perry just canceled their govt credit cards which were paying for all of their rebellion against the State House, including the bus that took them there. When they had to foot the bills themselves, it took them only a day or two for them to come to their senses.
getalife
February 21st, 2011
2:23 pm
There is a global youth movement fighting for jobs and the cons are fighting to take jobs.
Create not take cons .
Focus.
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
2:25 pm
Little-Noticed Provision In Walker’s Bill Could Reap Huge Gains For Koch Industries
Those Republicans just cannot seem to snort enough of that Koch.
getalife
February 21st, 2011
2:25 pm
kay,
rush.
Seriously.
Do you have your own brain?
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
2:26 pm
“Gov. Walker ran on a platform of restoring the budget of Wisconsin and he is only doing what he said he would do and what the voters elected him to do”
Did he campaign on a platform of union busting?
Normal
February 21st, 2011
2:26 pm
Dems are the government shut downers, not Republicans. And that’s true at the national level too.
jm,
don’t remember ‘95…? best thing that happened to Clinton…thank you Republicans… ha, ha
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
2:26 pm
It must be opposite day for kayaker.
Observer
February 21st, 2011
2:26 pm
JM – Thanks I just feel they are all corrupt whether it’s a Dem,Rep,or I. I just hear the Dems say Obama is doing what he said he would do ex healthcare and the people voted him in to do it. Now I hear the Rep say the Gov is doing what he said he would do slash the budget and the people voted him in to do it.
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
2:28 pm
TaxPayer…looks like you are having some reality denial problems…just sayin
I don’t think you’re being very realistic.
Ragnar Danneskjöld
February 21st, 2011
2:28 pm
Dear Adam @ 10:36, ” taxes really don’t have anything to do with job creation.” The next three years ought to tell the tale, as Illinois has embraced leftist orthodoxy – raising taxes – and Wisconsin is reducing taxes. I’ll put my money on Wisconsin.
Dave R.
February 21st, 2011
2:29 pm
“And again, this is not JUST about balancing the budget. This is ALSO about union-busting.”
Fixed your typo, Jay. Not thanks needed.
Joe the Plutocrat
February 21st, 2011
2:31 pm
USMCDawg, and you know about “democratic vs un-democratic” organizations as a result of your (presumed) experience as a United States Marine? ditto “corruption”. as a Marine, what was your position on the Osprey? I hate to keep whipping a dead horse, folks; but the ENTIRE system is “corrup” and as we know from social studies, the United States is an “un-democratic” organization (for those keeping score, our form of government is a representative republic. in many ways, labor unions built the same way. if Americans want ‘democracy’ then need to move to Iraq (assuming they’re not among the 50,000 – 100,000 who are already there). isn’t “democracy” why we’ve spent 8 years and $2 trillion over there?
Dave R.
February 21st, 2011
2:32 pm
“don’t remember ‘95…? best thing that happened to Clinton…thank you Republicans… ha, ha”
Be careful what you might wish for, Normal.
Different times and different circumstances. Just sayin’. . .
John Birch
February 21st, 2011
2:34 pm
Jay – Did Obama campaign on sending 50,000 troops to Afghanistan, keeping Gitmo open, keeping Bush tax cuts for the wealthy,etc, etc, etc?
@@
February 21st, 2011
2:34 pm
Honk if I need [an] Education
When HE and all else fails….
Too funny!
ronald
February 21st, 2011
2:36 pm
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
2:13 pm
Well said, Left Wing. I feel like intellectual progress is being made here. I too, applaud efforts to encourage people to seek out these types of careers and I understand that taxpayers benefit from the services they provide. Perhaps the difference in where you are and where I am can be boiled down to “what is an appropriate way to compensate such a group?” I would argue that when you’ve gotten to the point where they receive benefits that are greater than what taxpayers receive, then you’ve gone too far. Because again, taxpayers fund their own retirement accounts via 401k. I, as a taxpayer, don’t agree that I should pay for something for them to enjoy that I don’t have myself.
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
2:38 pm
ronald
“I would argue that when you’ve gotten to the point where they receive benefits that are greater than what taxpayers receive, then you’ve gone too far”
But they are not.
see link at 2:19
Normal
February 21st, 2011
2:38 pm
Different times and different circumstances. Just sayin’. . .
True, but the results will be the same as ‘95. It’s political suicide to mess with a persons Social Security check. Make it late, make them mad…just sayin’
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
2:38 pm
“Because again, taxpayers fund their own retirement accounts via 401k. I, as a taxpayer, don’t agree that I should pay for something for them to enjoy that I don’t have myself.”
You fund your 401(k) with money paid to you by your employer. The public employees retirement funds are “contributed” by THEIR employer.
BOTH of you are getting compensation in the form of contributions to a retirement fund. No difference.
kayaker 71
February 21st, 2011
2:39 pm
Wow. Just saying what a lot of you have been posting during all of these “govt benefits” threads seem to evoke a lot of criticism. I have seen post after post on this and CT’s threads about the evil Tea Party old white haired fossils who are living examples of those who are refusing to give up their SS and Medicare benefits yet preach to others as to how they think that all of the “entitlements” that the old receive are somehow not justified. I have quit counting the posts that criticize the SS benefits that we have paid into since our teens as somehow unjustified for their recipients. And Medicare…… it is the favorite whipping boy of those who feel that the old somehow are such a drag on our society that prioritizing care to them is a favorite thread in Bozo’s health fiasco. Those who are the most critical seem to forget that someday, if they are fortunate, they will also be old. So here’s to all of those like Blue Man on a Red Island who think that ignorant only comes in Republican slices. And as for you, Bookman, yes…… many of your favorite buddies on this post and on CT’s blog continually are critical of SS and Medicare benefits paid to the old. I see it every time these subjects arise. So don’t get your drawers all in a wad…..
ronald
February 21st, 2011
2:40 pm
Taxpayer says “Then you don’t agree with anything I said. Those union workers are not “retards”. They were hired to do a job and they do it and they are willing to work with the Republicans to solve a financial problem but not to break up their union. Walker and his Republican cronies are cowards. Republicans have union envy.”
Not to get too off subject here, but are they really doing their jobs, as you say? Because what I see is kids in Wisconsin sitting at home, because the teachers are refusing to do thier jobs (while they continue to get paid, by the way). I can’t think of a more fitting definition of selfishness than what they are displaying.
Now, when you say Walker and his “cronies” are cowards….how so? Walker is still in Wisconsin and has laid out his plans. Thats not cowardice, thats leadership. The Democrats running away to hide in a dark closet in Illinois…..that is cowardice.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
2:41 pm
“Because what I see is kids in Wisconsin sitting at home”
today is President’s Day
Dave R.
February 21st, 2011
2:41 pm
Granny, as usual, your link at 2:19 is the equvalen of “there are lies, damned lies, and statistics”.
And the portion these people in Wisconsin pay for their benefits is far, far lower than the equivalent portion the private sector pays for theirs.
Jay
February 21st, 2011
2:42 pm
John Birch, you’re adding to the silliness:
“Jay – Did Obama campaign on sending 50,000 troops to Afghanistan, keeping Gitmo open, keeping Bush tax cuts for the wealthy,etc, etc, etc?”
Let’s see. Yes, he did campaign on refocusing attention and resources of Afghanistan. On the latter two points, he has been forced to keep Gitmo open and extend the tax cuts because he is not a dictator and needs congressional approval for those moves.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
2:42 pm
“Madison schools closed Monday; teachers vote to return to work Tuesday”
http://host.madison.com/wsj/news/local/education/local_schools/article_d4bd62ac-3d3f-11e0-960d-001cc4c002e0.html