In Wisconsin battle, it’s not about the budget
You still can’t find a single Democratic state senator in the entire state of Wisconsin. All 14 of them remain in self-imposed exile in Illinois, and as long as they stay there, they can continue to prevent passage of a highly controversial bill that would sharply reduce benefits for teachers and other government employees and, more importantly, gut public labor unions.
It’s that second aspect of the bill that has drawn national and even international attention. As the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel reports:
The bill would require most public workers to pay half their pension costs – typically 5.8% of pay for state workers – and in many cases at least 12% of their health care costs. Union leaders have said they are willing to accept those concessions, which total nearly $330 million through June 2013.
Under the bill, the unions could not bargain over anything but wages, would have to hold annual elections to keep their organizations intact and would lose the ability to have union dues deducted from state paychecks. Employees would no longer have to automatically pay union dues, but could choose whether they want to do so.
In other words, the unions are willing to swallow the economic demands. If givebacks are necessary to help balance the state budget in a time of crisis, the employees say they’re willing to do their part.
However, Gov. Scott Walker has refused to accept that offer and also refuses to negotiate with labor or Democrats. He doesn’t see this merely as a chance to win an important battle against organized labor; he sees it as an opportunity to win the entire war, forever, by stripping state unions of most of their power and influence. And if he succeeds, the implications for the labor movement nationwide would be profound.
At the moment, only five states prohibit collective bargaining by teachers and other public employees, as the map below demonstrates. Georgia is one of the five. (Note: The right to bargain collectively does not imply the legal right to strike in many states.)
Teachers unions in particular have long been a favorite target of conservatives, with a lot of people blaming unions for poor classroom performance. So the map above made me curious: How does the ability of teachers to form unions and bargain collectively correlate to classroom performance? If strong teachers unions truly do hamper education, the five states that ban collective bargaining by teachers ought to rank fairly high in educational performance.
Here are the numbers for the five states in question, plus Wisconsin, on the National Assessment of Educational Progress, given annually across the nation to fourth and eighth graders.
Texas, North Carolina and Virginia are roughly at the national average. Georgia and South Carolina trail in most categories. Wisconsin does very well.
Here are the state rankings for average SAT scores for the six states in question:
Wisconsin 2
Virginia 33
North Carolina 39
Texas 45
Georgia 47
South Carolina 48
The numbers above might be a little misleading, given that most Wisconsin seniors take the ACT rather than the SAT. Then again, Wisconsin ranks second on the ACT as well.
– Jay Bookman
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618 comments Add your comment
Southern Comfort (B.P.O.I.B.W.)
February 21st, 2011
11:27 am
So one of the first things he did upon being elected (and this is a part time job in our county) was to put his entire family on the county insurance policy at a cost to taxpayers of $14,000+ a year.
HD, that there is sound fiscal prudence.
Mr. Snarky
February 21st, 2011
11:28 am
Now, if cutting taxes increases tax revenues, they why is Wisconsin having this budget deficit requiring these extreme measures when they just cut taxes for business? This seems inconsistent with Conservative economic theory. Hmmmmmm…
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
11:28 am
Clearly, the absence of collective bargaining did not help Georgia’s students. Or South Carolina or Texas…
Adam
February 21st, 2011
11:29 am
Del: Oh for God’s sake.
Doggone @ 9:59 and SoCo @ 10:29 are some good links to read. But that’s not even close to what you can find if you just GOOGLE IT
Rob
February 21st, 2011
11:31 am
You’re right.
This is about losing an election, and not “dealing with it,” to paraphrase what our illustrious president said after the 2008 election. Nice lesson to teach our children. If you don’t get your way, just hold your breath and stomp your feet until people give in to your demands.
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
11:31 am
Walker needs to go through with his threat to lay off 6000 or else be seen as a coward. Do it for the children.
Jay
February 21st, 2011
11:31 am
jm, bias is suggested by the author’s use of the term “militant teachers’ unions” in his abstract, a phrase that is a judgment in itself.
And as a critique of his 1987 analysis — published in the same journal you cite — points out:
“To our knowledge, Kurth is alone in suggesting that teachers unions have any influence over SAT scores. Exhaustive studies by the Congressional Budget Office (1986, 1987), which considered dozens of explanatory variables and hundreds of studies, failed to find any consideration of teachers unions.”
Their critique found:
“In a published comment on the Kurth article, Nelson and Gould (1988) demonstrate that the Kurth study has serious deficiencies in its methodology. These include a failure to establish a base relationship between test performance and the level of collective bargaining before Kurth postulated the increase in collective bargaining as a cause for the fall in test scores. There were numerous other problems in the methodology:
• Kurth misrepresented variations in SAT scores and failed to take into account the percentage of high school graduates taking the test in each state.
• His study used inconsistent and inappropriate timing factors (i.e. the lag time between initial unionization and that period of impact on student performance).
• The research included states with collective bargaining agreements in the block of non-union states.
• The research failed to include variables such as race and gender (factors that Powell and Steelman had found to be significant indicators of state performance levels in 1984).
• The research mistimed the lag effects of social changes such as family size, stability and levels of parent education. (Nelson and Gould, 1988).
Nelson and Gould corrected many of the problems in the Kurth analysis and found that “the results clearly indicate that collective bargaining is associated with higher SAT scores no matter what equation is used …” (Nelson and Gould, 1988).
Paulo977
February 21st, 2011
11:32 am
Granny ….you go go go .As a retired teacher myself and with a daughter teacher and grand kids in the Dekalb school system I have always groaned that we were ‘ABUSED’!!!
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
11:33 am
Republicans have union envy.
Southern Comfort (B.P.O.I.B.W.)
February 21st, 2011
11:34 am
Lying evil hypocrites, that’s been my every experience with private sector unions. And public sector ones shouldn’t even exist.
One experience with a jackass and you choose to paint everyone with a broad brush, and it’s supposed to be ok??? That’s a fu*king copout. I had a 18 year old WHITE GIRL kill my grandfather in a car accident that was all her fault. She didn’t even get a fu*king ticket for running the red light. Now, if I came on here and said I hate all white girls and they are all fu*king evil, you’d call me racist, wouldn’t you???
Outside the Perimeter
February 21st, 2011
11:36 am
there you go again Cynthia, damning the Right Wing for all that is wrong with Wisconxin. OOPS! Geez, I am at the point where I can no longer distinguish your rantings from those of C. Tucker (AKA: the Washington DC KOOK), so forgive me for that.
boy, it’s fun watching the thugs prance around with their signs. So clever, so thoghtful! No mean-spirits displayed there, by God. these are your next door neighbors so my advice to is is arm yourselves! The Union Thugs won’t stop now, it’s gonna be your earnings, your taxes from now on to pay for their “benefits.”
stands for decibels
February 21st, 2011
11:36 am
Walker needs to go through with his threat to lay off 6000 or else be seen as a coward.
Or, put another way…
Jay
February 21st, 2011
11:36 am
Del:
http://www.npr.org/2011/02/21/133932040/Wisconsin-Protests
http://www.wbay.com/Global/story.asp?S=14068378
http://www.wypr.org/node/9553
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/02/21/us/21wisconsin.html
http://www.wkow.com/Global/story.asp?S=14066507
@@
February 21st, 2011
11:38 am
Adam:
Can I assume your Mom is a Republican? So what are you saying….she’s not too bright. That’s not nice.
A new Pew Research Center study provides evidence that Republican voters are smarter about current affairs, issues and news.
Enough of jay’s re-heated hash for me.
I’m out.
John Ellison
February 21st, 2011
11:38 am
Teachers Union: Give us a raise and more benefits, then we’ll bring out the votes to get you re-elected.
State Democrat Rep: Sure, I”ll vote to give you whatever you want, the taxpayers will pay for it and I get re-elected. What else can I do for you?
Teachers Union: Be sure to vote against school choice. We don’t want parents to send their kids to better schools and make us look bad.
State Democrat Rep: No problem.
Sloppy Joe
February 21st, 2011
11:39 am
Everybody following this issue should be aware of the following—
When this Republican Governor of Wisconsin was inaugurated in January, he inherited a balanced budget from his Democratic predecessor. Upon taking office, Governor Walker immediately called a special session of the legislature primarily to cut corporate taxes. These tax cuts caused the deficit that Wisconsin is suddenly facing. Walker and his Republican allies are now trying to plug the hole they created by taking it out the compensation of teachers and other public employees.
Given this background, the unions were generous to make the short-term financial concessions that they’ve offered. Personally, I don’t think teachers and other middle class workers should have to take money out of their wallets to pay for tax cuts for corporations. But that’s exactly what they’ve offered to do here.
aps
February 21st, 2011
11:40 am
Only a lib like AmVet could take a basic union discussion about Wisconsin and bring the Bush administration into it. What a tool!! Please stay on the subject before your head explodes.
Adam
February 21st, 2011
11:40 am
@@: Well we’re all ignorant on different subjects. She does have a Bachelor of Arts… in Art. She’s great at Art. Politics and left brain stuff is just not as much in her reach. Nothing wrong with that, but she’s got this visceral anti-Obama anti-Democrat thing going on that didn’t exist before Fox News started spouting it. She fell for it, hook, line, and sinker. So yeah, I call it like I see it.
jack bull
February 21st, 2011
11:40 am
for some reason, this comes to mind….”if i can’t get my way, i’ll take my toys somewhere else and play”
Donovan
February 21st, 2011
11:41 am
No matter how you slice it, Democrats will forever try to convince you that unions are there to protect you from the evil minded Republicans and their management professionals. Whenever unions are threatened with initiatives to weaken their control, out come the thugs, the “community organizers”(activists), the hateful placards, the threat of “work stoppages”(strikes), and mobilization of Democrat followers (Jay’s legion of loyal supporters). History has shown us that unions had a relative place early in the Machine Age, but it morphed into such a destructive blood sucking beast that has ruined economies and looted capitalism of its greatness. Unions are the vehicle for those who wish to earn more money than non-union jobs by working under the protective umbrella of legalized extortion (strikes). Therefore, no ships can be unloaded unless unions unload them, No airlines can be flown unless unions fly them. No cars can be produced unless unions produce them. No buildings can be built unless unions build them. No casinos can be run unless unions run them. No restaurants can serve food unless unions serve the food. And on and on and on it goes. Have you ever sat on a plane in Rome for 3 hours until the union gets its demands fulfilled? The treat of a strike is a disgusting tool that has led to the ruination of good companies. It’s ultimate conclusion has led to bankrupting cities, states, school systems, airlines, auto industries, carpet industries, and virtually all forms of businesses and governments that produce anything of value. Is it any wonder why we have to outsource everything to earn a profit now? Every large metropolitan city in this country run by Democrats and their allied unions are failing entities. Wisconsin has one of the largest public unionized work employment system (300,000 +) in this county and it has bankrupted the state. The governor does not have the money to continue on this ruinous policy of union contol. In essence, his efforts will save jobs and lower the deficit that is strangling the state. However, what we see is the typical and reactionary behavior of selfish people living off the largesse of the taxpayers. Entitlements are always hard to let go. Union employees are so used to contributing very little into their health and pension plans that it creates dire consequences when changes are required. Those people who voted for the Republican mandate in Wisconsin last Fall apparently are not in agreement with the minority of those demanding so much. The common sense rationalization of the ‘demerits’ of uionnization will fall on the deaf ears of Jay’s legion of liberals. They will always preach the ‘merits’ of job protectionism, emlpoyment diversity, and unfair employment termination as the banner of righteousness, but in the end its all about money for themselves. The unions on the otherhand are worried about any slip in dues membership that might come as a result of any change to their way of business.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
11:41 am
“Please stay on the subject before your head explodes.”
this isn’t YOUR blog and YOU do not set the rules for it
carlosgvv
February 21st, 2011
11:42 am
This is typical Tea-Party mentality, namely, we are absolutely right and you who oppose us must be absolutely wrong so, since we have the power, we will grind you under. I did not realize there were so many mindless voters in Wisconsin.
Del
February 21st, 2011
11:42 am
Adam, Mark Miller one of the democrats in hiding didn’t say emphatically that the union and the membership would accept the reduction in benefits. he couldn’t speak for them anyway@10:29. Bell only stated that the union membership would “do their fair share”.whatever that means.@9:59 You’ll have to come up with better than that as that doesn’t prove Jay’s comment.That’s just union double speak for those who haven’t been around too long or who’ve chosen not to understand it.
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
11:43 am
Rob 11:31: “Nice lesson to teach our children. If you don’t get your way, just hold your breath and stomp your feet until people give in to your demands.”
You actually have the gall to lecture the Democratic side about accepting the results of elections when it is precisely the anti-Obama side which engages in all manner of smear and paranoid theorizing about birth certificates and secret Muslim anti-Americanism, etc. That insinuation clearly qualifies as the laugher of the day so far in a never un-crowded field.
stands for decibels
February 21st, 2011
11:43 am
Republicans have union envy.
Actually, I think it’s more like they’re trying to generate what would be more accurately termed job security envy. They figure we are at a kind of tipping point where the public is basically divided on approving/disapproving of the very concept of organized labor, and they are trying mightily to convert understandable fear as among the working class over their own insecurity, into resentment for those perceived to actually have job security (setting aside the obvious fact that public sector employees, even unionized ones, get laid off too.)
In other words: Classic wedge-issue politics.
anyway, gotta go back to producin’. Don’t wedge anyone while I’m away.
Southern Comfort (B.P.O.I.B.W.)
February 21st, 2011
11:44 am
Teachers unionChamber of Commerce: Give us araisetax cuts and morebenefitsloopholes, then we’ll bring out the votes to get you re-elected.State
DemocratRepublican Rep: Sure, I”ll vote to give you whatever you want, the taxpayers will pay for it and I get re-elected. What else can I do for you?Teachers unionChamber of Commerce: Be sure to vote againstschool choiceworker benefits. We don’t wantparents to send their kids to better schoolsworkers to take our profits like they actually worked to earn them and make uslook badprofit less.State
DemocratRepublican Rep: No problem.John, looked like you made a few errors on your essay. Thought I’d help clear them up a bit. I don’t have red ink like a teacher, but I’m sure you get the point. Your little dialogue goes on from both sides of the political spectrum. Only the names and places change.
Adam
February 21st, 2011
11:47 am
Donovan: Democrats will forever try to convince you that unions are there to protect you from the evil minded Republicans and their management professionals
Actually, I think many unions are only trying to protect workers from corporate interests which seek to minimize a worker into a number or some faceless drone. Unions are an added protection against things like getting fired for “no reason, or any reason at all.” I therefore do not think the concept is bad. A few bad apples exist, but they don’t poison the bunch, as I said before.
So it’s not about Republicans EXCEPT that Republicans today seem to be fervently anti-union for no other reason than they just hate unions. There’s no real logic to it. It’s just ideology. Making excuses like some unions do this, or some people do that, or corporations and employers are ALWAYS fair and never take advantage… I mean come on.
AmVet
February 21st, 2011
11:47 am
Just for the reading challenged aps, Lamp and I were discussing one of your slimy heroes, Ronald Dumsfeld.
Can you even follow a basic thread? There are almost always side topics being discussed here.
And it was Jimmy at 10:17 who referenced GXB by name. No one else.
I guess you “missed” that, huh?
But just for you. (Cuz YOU bring so much to the discussion table.)
When in doubt, stick with the aps play book.
Misrepresent, misquote, cherry pick, and provide no relevant data to the topic at hand that can be confirmed.
And discount out of hand, any that is…
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
11:48 am
“Democrats will forever try to convince you that unions are there to protect you from the evil minded Republicans and their management professionals”
Nope. Unions exist to help protect workers from exploitive employers. That you seem to be equating those exploitive employers with Republicans is very telling.
AmVet
February 21st, 2011
11:48 am
Doggone, he/she is just another frustrated drive by dolt…
RW-(the original)
February 21st, 2011
11:49 am
Sloppy Joe must get his “news” from MSNBC and doesn’t know that both Maddow and Schultz’s claims of that Wisconsin balanced budget have received the polit-i-fact munchkin rating of not just merely false but really quite sincerely false.
The forest beckons and I hope for SoCo’s sake that by the time I get back Jay B hasn’t instituted one of those Wisconsin rules about tricking the censor.
Later y’all.
Dave R.
February 21st, 2011
11:49 am
“When this Republican Governor of Wisconsin was inaugurated in January, he inherited a balanced budget from his Democratic predecessor.”
How many times will this lie be repeated?
Adam
February 21st, 2011
11:49 am
Del: You argument at 11:42 is effectively moving of the goal posts, with a technicality that you have covered your a** by saying you would only listen to credible sources, which can be defined any way you like from that point forward. In essence, what you are saying is that you don’t believe it and no amount of evidence is good enough. And you haven’t even bothered to try to tell Jay that ALL FIVE of his links in his 11:36 are wrong. I do appreciate you going back and actually looking at the links though.
AmVet
February 21st, 2011
11:51 am
Not the evil card again.
Jeez…
Uhoh
February 21st, 2011
11:53 am
He won!
Del
February 21st, 2011
11:53 am
Jay, until such time as the Democrats come out of hiding and return to the state capitol and begin debating this issue along with state employees returning to work all these reports “attributed to Bell” and referencing union leaders who say this while really meaning that aren’t conclusive of anything. I’ve been around for awhile.
Mike C
February 21st, 2011
11:53 am
this is an excellent article.
jm
February 21st, 2011
11:56 am
Jay 11:31 – fair enough. I look forward to someone doing some actual up to date research. NY rubber-room anecdotes included, I have a hard time believing unionization improves education performance. Anyway, in the meantime, can we not further mis-educate the populace with overly simplistic analysis?….
Ok, gotta get a ton of stuff done, so I’m out.
RW-(the original)
February 21st, 2011
11:58 am
Del,
You might want to give this a look It appears that this “reaching out for compromise” is just trying to get a second bite at the cheese wheel.
In this case, the issue was debated in the campaign, and voters chose Scott Walker as governor by a significant margin in part because he promised to bring spending and unions under control. The unions made this point clear in their campaign advertising, and still lost not just the race but both chambers of the legislature. Now that the legislature has been seated, the majority controls the agenda and can send bills to the floor — for the debate that Miller professes to want, followed by a vote.
That’s how representative democracy works. If the Democrats want a compromise bill, then they need to show up in the legislature to find enough Republicans to vote down Walker’s proposal in favor of an alternative. If the majority wants Walker’s bill, well, that’s the consequence of losing an election. If that doesn’t represent the wishes of Wisconsin voters, Democrats can run in the next election on the promise to restore the closed shop and full collective bargaining rights to unions that have run the state for decades, and see how popular that makes them.
This time I’m really leaving.
poison pen
February 21st, 2011
11:59 am
Wow! it wasn’t bad enough that Upchuck corrected everyones posts now we have SOCO doing it.
SoCo, while I feel sorry for your loss, your family must of had a terrible Lawyer if you didn’t get justice.
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
12:00 pm
Why do Republicans give themselves wedgies.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
12:00 pm
“until such time as the Democrats come out of hiding and return to the state capitol and begin debating this issue ”
If they come back there will not BE a debate. All it would take is for ONE Democrat to answer “Here” in the legislature and they will have a quorum. They will vote and pass the bill. No debate.
poison pen
February 21st, 2011
12:02 pm
RW, good write, I may also add that the Majority of peole in the U.S. didn’t want Obamacare but the Dems shoved it down out throats. If you want change then you will just have to vote for it.
Sloppy Joe
February 21st, 2011
12:03 pm
P.S. to my 11:39 post:
Wisconsin Governor Walker is a corporate funded politician, wholly-owned and operated by the likes of Koch Industries.
What’s happening in Wisconsin is one example of what happens when the five so-called originalists on the Supreme Court, via the Citizens United case, decided the management of corporations can use unlimited corporate funds to influence our elections. This is what happens when corporations are given Constitutional rights that the founders never, ever intended.This is what happens when we equate money with speech, such that those with the most money have the most speech.
According to the Supreme Court, if you buy Brawny Paper Towels at Publix, then you choose for the people who manage the company that makes those papers towels, the Koch brothers, to speak on your behalf in the public sphere. If you buy stock in a company through your 401(k) mutual fund or your IRA mutual fund—you probably don’t even know the names of the companies that your mutual fund owns—then you’ve given the CEO of those companies the power to speak on your behalf in the public sphere.
If you’re a Republican, you don’t have to worry about contributing to the party or your favorite candidates. Shopping and investing is all the you need do. Because the Republican Party speaks entirely for the vast majority of large corporations where you shop and where your mutual fund investments are made.
If your ideology is to enrich the rich at the expense of the poor and the middle class, then you’re covered. If Ayn Rand’s “The Virtue of Selfishness” is the direction that you want to see our country go in, then the Supreme Court has taken care of that for you.
Congratulations!
poison pen
February 21st, 2011
12:04 pm
Taxpayer, I think they do it so the Dems can kiss both cheeks.
Del
February 21st, 2011
12:04 pm
Adam, I don’t see where I’ve moved any goal posts and I have no reason to cover anything that I’ve said. I’m saying, now listen up, that no one has provided creditable proof that the unions and their membership are truly willing to accept the reduction in benefits as stipulated by Governor Walker. We’re only seeing Jay’s opinion on his apparent interpretation from what he’s read that they are willing and that doesn’t make it so. Until the workers return to their jobs and the Wisconsin Democrats return to theirs we don’t really know for certain.
WOODSTOCK MIKE
February 21st, 2011
12:05 pm
“Under the bill, the unions could not bargain over anything but wages, would have to hold annual elections to keep their organizations intact and would lose the ability to have union dues deducted from state paychecks. Employees would no longer have to automatically pay union dues, but could choose whether they want to do so.”
Above is the reason that Jay Bookman says the strikes are happening. Hmmm…. They can collectively bargain over wages which is obviously the major part of collective bargaining. The other pieces seem meaningless.
Come on, we all know the reason they are striking. Because they were actually asked to contribute to their own insurance and retirements. Sorry, I do not feel any sympathy towards them and they should be ashamed of themselves.
Are their really people out there who agree with these morons?? They are making fools of themselves in front of the entire country.
And elected officials leaving the state, talk about a temper tantrum, they should all be fired.
Shell
February 21st, 2011
12:05 pm
“You’re acting like unions are mafias, and that’s just not the case. They don’t go around breaking people’s legs for not voting their way.”
Yes it is, and yes they do. it starts as subtle harassment and being ostracized and stops there if you don’t rock the boat any more than to refuse to join. If you actively campaign against the union though, you’re liable to get roughed up, beat up, or your legs broken. Don’t just take my word for it, talk to anti-union activists and you’ll learn this for yourself.
The main problem I have with unions is their insistence on solidarity amongst members *no matter what*. It is next to impossible to fire a union member regardless of transgression.
Secondarily is their insistence on more and bigger slices of the pie *no matter the consequences to the company*.
extremerightwing
February 21st, 2011
12:06 pm
Jay, these employees still have a say in their professions just as you and I do every year. If our employer says we are changing the pay structure or benefits to X you have a choice: Accept it and keep working or reject it and search for new job.
The core issue on this whole thing is that dims and the unions see one of their last bastions of support being dismantled and they are scared to death.
What is wrong with not having the union dues, aka protection money or contribution to the dimorat party, not automatically withdrawn. Sounds like the unions are afraid folks might not cough up the cash. Guess it’s time to send in the SEIU thugs! Do you want it in the knee or the gut?
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
12:07 pm
poison pen
February 21st, 2011
12:04 pm
Taxpayer, I think they do it so the Dems can kiss both cheeks.
How long will the Republicans hold that pose, waiting for that kiss.
83jacket
February 21st, 2011
12:09 pm
This is how the cycle works: Public Sector Unions give 99% of contributions to Democrooks. Democrooks don’t bargain with Public Sector Unions on behalf of the tax payers because they are beholden to Public Sector Unions. Tax payers get screwed. every three years repeat cylce.
Darwin
February 21st, 2011
12:09 pm
Genius of the Repub party. I wonder how many of these state workers voted for the newly elected govenor? Reminds me of the air traffic controllers who voted for Reagan. It’s never me is it?
WOODSTOCK MIKE
February 21st, 2011
12:11 pm
Does anyone out there feel sympathy for the morons in Wisconsin who are striking?? If so, please tell me one reason that you believe they are doing the right thing…
Cuts needed to be made, this article by Bookman is a complete lie. They are striking because they don’t feel like contributing to their health insurance or retirement.
Read the picket signs in the crowds…
Bookman is a moron.
Del
February 21st, 2011
12:11 pm
RW, That’s correct…the Democrats need to get back to the capitol present their case before the vote and the union workers need to go back to their jobs. Until such time, neither the Democrats nor the Unions have credibility in anything they say. Work to do…later
Jefferson
February 21st, 2011
12:12 pm
If they need money, they should raise taxes.
Paulo977
February 21st, 2011
12:13 pm
Mary E …”Only after NYC teachers struck for higher pay in the 1960s were they given decent wages, but more importantly, they were finally afforded respect”…This is really conflictual for many teachers who are truly committed to their “vocation” BUT sometimes the realization that the result of an action could bring about greater good should take precedence!!
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
12:14 pm
“Because they were actually asked to contribute to their own insurance and retirements”
Haven’t been keeping up with the conversation, I see.
George P. Burdell
February 21st, 2011
12:15 pm
Jay, I’m still trying to digest how Virginia is at the national average but Wisconsin does very well. Are we looking at the same data you put in the article?
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
12:15 pm
Krugman makes a shrewd observation in his column today about what may have been the most fatal error in Walker’s overreaching:
But Mr. Walker isn’t interested in making a deal. Partly that’s because he doesn’t want to share the sacrifice: even as he proclaims that Wisconsin faces a terrible fiscal crisis, he has been pushing through tax cuts that make the deficit worse. Mainly, however, he has made it clear that rather than bargaining with workers, he wants to end workers’ ability to bargain.
The bill that has inspired the demonstrations would strip away collective bargaining rights for many of the state’s workers, in effect busting public-employee unions. Tellingly, some workers — namely, those who tend to be Republican-leaning — are exempted from the ban; it’s as if Mr. Walker were flaunting the political nature of his actions.
Kamchak
February 21st, 2011
12:17 pm
…but the Dems shoved it down out throats.
I have found that those who complain the most about having something shoved down their throats are the same one’s who will swallow anything.
buck@gon
February 21st, 2011
12:17 pm
One does not need to read the whole article to see the flaw in this “logic.” The headline is enough.
Despite the incontrovertible fact that the WI governor ran on the very thing he is doing right now; despite the fact the whole nation is awakened to spending and government waste now; despite that fact that every politician since Wilson has solemnly vowed to rid our system of corrupt government waste, including President Obama; despite the indisputible fact that government employees very often have a highly subsidized set of bennies, what we hear today is the same old Washington-man-Jay tapdance: that is, “don’t pay attention to the man behind the curtain. There’s nothing to see here folks. –just conservatives targeting their favorite victims.
What WMJ won’t remind anyone is that when there is nothing to see, Democrats leave the state so that they won’t face reality, the vote or the voters. This is an illegal and heinous activity by Democrat leaders–though we have come to find that there is really no such thing. All Democrats are (and WMJ, I mean YOU) becoming is community organizers who bring their latest prop in front of cameras to get the spending (and high taxes) they want.
To paraphrase the great Dear Leader of our country. “We won (John), elections have consequences.” It’s time for Democrats to take the smackdown that is coming and will be coming for years to come as long as they engage in this type of activity–union bullying and illegal legislative abdication of duty. Speaking of abdication, isn’t that what Dems in Washington have done? –walked away from even passing a budget last year?
Dems aren’t leaders. They are excuse makers and children.
What is interesting to note for Wisconsin teachers supposedly concerned with their own salaries and benefits is that on average they are making less than teachers in Georgia (who are not unionized). Maybe we should tell them the water is better down here because obviously, the union has already failed them.
WOODSTOCK MIKE
February 21st, 2011
12:17 pm
The #1 reason there are unions is too make sure employees do not get screwed by their employers. Wages are the #1 reason that unions exist. Unions are created to make sure employers can’t take advatage of employees. Take a look at the NFL players union, everything is about the money. Jay Bookman is trying to spin this and if you believe it for one second you are incredibly naive!!
The unions in Wisconsin will still be able to collectively bargain wages. The other pieces are a small part of the pie.
jm
February 21st, 2011
12:18 pm
Jay 11:31 – 2 other things. I’ll do some more research on this issue if / when I can get the time.
Second, when I found that using Google, I obviously didn’t do a search on “militant unionization”, rather just, education, unions, etc.
Given that links that point to another source drive Google’s search engine, if this was a biased research article, it leads one to believe the biased conservatives are driving the Google search results. who know.s
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
12:19 pm
Bookman is a moron.
Like that scene in Iron Man where a man fires on the iron man at close range only to fall immediately to the ground from the ricocheting bullet.
Turn off the Fox News and the WGST, Mike and learn something.
Sloppy Joe
February 21st, 2011
12:19 pm
RW@11:49,
I stand corrected. Wilson’s corporate tax cuts, projected to cost the state $140 million in tax revenue, don’t take effect until July.
WOODSTOCK MIKE
February 21st, 2011
12:21 pm
@Doggone/GA
Please explain the conversation. Do you actually believe they are striking because they would have to hold annual elections or that they are going to lose the ability to deduct union dues from their paychecks??
RB from Gwinnett
February 21st, 2011
12:21 pm
“The numbers above might be a little misleading…”
That sure wouldn’t stop you from posting them though would it Jay? The truth is in Wisconsin, only 4% of their students took the SAT in 2010. In GA, that number is 74%. If you plot participation rate against average score, you’ll see there is a direct correlation. It would also suggest the strategy for moving GA off the bottom of that list would be to prevent average and below students from taking the test.
There’s not a single state in the top 20 with more than 20% taking the test.
The difference in Georgia’s score an the no. 30 state is less than 100 pts. Not a single one of you can tell me if you had scored 100 pts higher on your SAT you would be in a better place in life for it. Made more money, graduated from a better school…
WOODSTOCK MIKE
February 21st, 2011
12:22 pm
@Left Wing Management
Please explain why they are strking…
Dont watch Fox News, where can I go to learn?
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
12:24 pm
“Tellingly, some workers — namely, those who tend to be Republican-leaning — are exempted from the ban”
yes, that’s what put me solidly on the side of the unions…especially as even those excempted unions are joining in the demonstrations
Richard Sanders
February 21st, 2011
12:25 pm
Nice try, but I’m sure the absence or presence of collective bargaining is not the ONLY factor that plays into those test scores. Unions have hurt the industry of this country and I don’t want to pay too much for an American car because I have to pay a$$hole tax for the guys in the Job Banks who are being paid to sit around and play Xbox. Unions had their place, now they’re only hurting America. Bye bye unions.
AmVet
February 21st, 2011
12:25 pm
This is how the cycle works: Public Sector Unions give 99% of contributions to Democrooks.
Incorrect.
But one would need to know how to do basic research, and I fear that leaves 83 out in the cold.
(If you ask real nice, I’ll give you the real number, instead of your made up one though.)
BTW, that total amount is DWARFED by the amount given by the US Chamber of Commerce to the GOP.
And then there is this;
From PoliticalMoneyLine.com, here’s a list of those corporations [PAC'S] that exclusively, or nearly so(90-100%), support only the Republican Party over the Democratic Party in financial contributions:Phillips Int’l. (100%), Cooper Industries (100%), Flowers Industries (100%), Harris Corp. (98%), Illinois Toolworks (97%), Outback Steakhouse (96%), ExxonMobil (96%), National City Corp. (95%), Wendy’s Int’ l. (93%), Anadarko Petroleum (92%), Timken Corp. (91%), Halliburton (91%), Meadwestvaco Corp (90%), Darden Restaurants Inc. (90%), Branch Banking & Trust Co (90%), and Int’l Paper (90%).Here’s a few more in the 80-90% range:
CATERPILLAR 89%
J.C.PENNEY CORP. INC. 89%
GOODYEAR TIRE 89%
CONOCOPHILLIPS SPIRIT 89%
SMITHFIELD FOODS INC 88%
CHEVRONTEXACO 87%
FORD MOTOR COMPANY 84%
CIGNA CORPORATION 83%
OWENS CORNING 83%
CONAGRA FOODS 83%
HOME DEPOT INC. 81%
BAXTER HEALTHCARE CORPORATION 81%
3M COMPANY 80%
See, if we had a Democratic Party leadership with some steel for action to change the status quo, they’d come out with a PR asking Democratic Party voters to stop going to Wendy’s if they are going to only contribute to Republicans. Instead, we get the likes that are grateful for the 7% in crumbs, which is good enough to buy off their silence.
Overall, the list of Corporations that give more than 50% of their contributions to the Republican Party numbers 254. On the Democratic side? There is only one Corp. that gives above 60% to the Democratic Party, CableVisions Systems at 78%, and 22 others in the 50-59% range. It’s a 10:1 ratio in the number of corporations favoring Republicans over Democrats, but for the actual money, it’s much higher, 25:1 or greater.
So cry me a red corporatocracy river…
Memphis11Gate
February 21st, 2011
12:25 pm
Jay, this one is easy, the governor should put on a ballot for the voters to decide if Wisconsin should allow unions for government employees. Put up all statistics of public and private benefits, salary, and the cost of long term pension cost, and let the voters decide. I do not unions especially government unions because l believe the government have rules and regulations the make them unnecessary. Also, someone posted government jobs are not outsources, yes they are, they are contracted out and some services are off-shored.
Government employees have to understand you have no right to a job, and if tax revenues are low, you may have to go.
Rafe Hollister
February 21st, 2011
12:25 pm
Unions in the private sector regulate themselves, either they moderate their demands or put themselves out of a job, like the UAW or the Steel workers.
Public sector unions are an abomination in that there is no competition or way to regulate them. They either strike and shut down the government or you yield to their demands. FDR was mostly wrong, but on this issue he was correct.
ronald
February 21st, 2011
12:26 pm
Shame on you, Jay for trying to imply that states labor unions somehow have an effect on standardized test scores in that state. Thats about as absurd as me suggesting that the states with higher scores also have higher % of caucasion students, while the states with lower scores have higher % of black students..
Dave R.
February 21st, 2011
12:26 pm
“Tellingly, some workers — namely, those who tend to be Republican-leaning — are exempted from the ban; it’s as if Mr. Walker were flaunting the political nature of his actions.”
Or maybe that overblown tool Krugman doesn’t realize, as Gov. Walker does, that public safety personnel are different than non-public safety presonnel.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
12:26 pm
“Do you actually believe they are striking because they would have to hold annual elections or that they are going to lose the ability to deduct union dues from their paychecks??”
yes, that and losing their collective bargaining rights. It’s straightforward union busting, and the fact that even the EXEMPT unions are joining is shows that I’m not the only one who knows that.
barking frog
February 21st, 2011
12:26 pm
Unions are groups of people that unite to advance their
lifestyle, just like companies or corporations….
ronald
February 21st, 2011
12:27 pm
I think that if Wisconsin teachers refuse to work (keep in mind they are paid by taxpayers), then the revenue from their property taxes should be re-apportioned to states where the teachers show up for work and actually teach kids.
Normal
February 21st, 2011
12:29 pm
Del,
I know you are better than you are showing…just because you don’t like it, doesn’t mean it’s not true.
—————–
Woodstock Mike,
Hang around the Right Wing Cafe much?
jm
February 21st, 2011
12:30 pm
unions. just another special interest
Darko
February 21st, 2011
12:30 pm
The left loves goverment agencies.
The left loves labor unions because they “protect” the workers.
Why does the left believe workers need “protection” from the government agencies the left have created and love?
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
12:30 pm
Rafe: “Public sector unions are an abomination in that there is no competition or way to regulate them. They either strike and shut down the government or you yield to their demands. FDR was mostly wrong, but on this issue he was correct.”
Nope. FDR was mostly right, but on this he was wrong.
Richard Sanders; “Unions had their place, now they’re only hurting America. Bye bye unions.”
Wrong. Should be: Welcome back unions.
ronald
February 21st, 2011
12:30 pm
And BOO HOO HOO that the poor old teachers have to pay HALF of thier pension contributions. Cry me a river…….. Why are taxpayers paying ANYTHING for pensions for teachers. Let them have 401ks like everyone else. I never knew teachers could be MORE GREEDY than businessmen at public corporations.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
12:30 pm
“then the revenue from their property taxes should be re-apportioned to states ”
can’t be done. STATE taxes are not a federal tax.
Brent
February 21st, 2011
12:32 pm
Jay,
Without getting into the substance of the article, I think the graph that you use as the basis for you point is terribly misleading. You can’t use national education rankings as the result of unionizing. Of all the things that go into national education rankings, I imagine the union status of the teachers is way down on the list of the most determining factors. By ignoring all the other factors in play, the graph simply doesn’t tell us anything useful. Of course Georgia and South Carolina have low educational rankings scores, we all know this, but it has very little to do with the state of organized labor in those states. Are you honestly suggesting Wisconsin would fall from #2 nationally in education to below average if it makes unionizing illegal?
It is difficult to discuss much else about this article when the statistics you used were so off base, and fail to isolate out the criteria you are discussing.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
12:32 pm
“Why does the left believe workers need “protection” from the government agencies the left have created and love?”
Because “agencies” are run by PEOPLE
Jefferson
February 21st, 2011
12:33 pm
Seems things are worse than better, so why is this the right approach ?
Darwin
February 21st, 2011
12:34 pm
Funny that if this was just about the budget, the govenor would sit down and try to negotiate a settlement. Instead, it’s all about collective bargaining. It’s funny in Washington, where the Repubs can only cut from the EPA and other regulatory agencies to tackle the budget deficit. They can only cut programs for the poor, public television, volunteer programs, the arts…. They don’t seem interested in tackling those programs, SS, Medicare/Medicaid, Defense Spending, that really contribute to spending. Which evryone agrees on. So, it’s not so funny when we begin to wonder if the Repubs don’t have a secret agenda that has nothing to do with spending. Think about it.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
12:34 pm
“Of all the things that go into national education rankings, I imagine the union status of the teachers is way down on the list of the most determining factors.”
Ummmm…THAT was the point, that union status does not HARM student test scores
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
12:35 pm
Woodstock Mike: “Please explain why they are strking…”
They’re striking because they know an attack on the life and blood of unions when they see one.
The governor is acting on behalf of a rapacious finance-driven power ideology that knows the only remaining obstacle to across-the-boards dominance for its side in this country is to break the back of unions once and for all. With private unions weakened, that means all they have to do is gut the public unions and they’re virtually ensured victory. Well thanks to Mr. Walker, looks like it’s not going to go as smoothly as they thought.
jm
February 21st, 2011
12:35 pm
unions and the scardeycrats that ran away are the US mubareks. anti-democratic process
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
12:36 pm
“They don’t seem interested in tackling those programs, SS, Medicare/Medicaid, Defense Spending, that really contribute to spending”
SS does not contribute to the deficit or the debt, but otherwise…good points!
Norman Thomson
February 21st, 2011
12:36 pm
Having grown up in WI, it sickens me where the State has gone with its new Governor and Senator. It reminds me of the very early days in school when we studied the bull-headed Republican days of Joseph McCarthy and everybody who wasn’t like him such as union members was a Commie. WI and GA rednecks are of the same cloak – ignorant. Thank you for this insightful article, Jay Bookman
John
February 21st, 2011
12:36 pm
Why is a public union necessary? I don’t understand why a government employee needs a union. Do the union supporters contend that without a union the government would trample their rights? I thought the government was the ultimate fair employer, no? If you’re so unhappy, just get a job in the private sector where you have to pay for your own healthcare and fund your own retirement like I do. Why should my hard earned income be taxed so that government employees get paid more than me, not because they work harder than me (they don’t), but because of the result of union threats and acts?
Have you actually seen the argument in WI? The union is protesting because they are being asked to fund but only a portion of their healthcare and pension. My ears are deaf to that kind of complaint. What happened to the concept of self responsibility? In WWII, everybody sacrificed. Nowadays, it’s all about entitlements. What part of the following sentence do the union supporters not understand: “the state is broke.” Why is the world should I be taxed even more just so these people don”t have to fund their own healthcare and pension?
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
12:37 pm
ronald : “Let them have 401ks like everyone else.”
Turn off the Fox News and WGST and learn something for a change will ya.
And put away those big plastic yellow shoes while you’re at it.
Paulo977
February 21st, 2011
12:38 pm
Doggone..”It’s straightforward union busting, and the fact that even the EXEMPT unions are joining is shows that I’m not the only one who knows that” THAT IS CRYSTAL CLEAR!!
DaWG
February 21st, 2011
12:38 pm
If we follow your logic, then AL, MS and KY should be in the top half of all 50 states since they allow CB for teachers union. OOPS, wonder what happened there??
Southern Comfort (B.P.O.I.B.W.)
February 21st, 2011
12:38 pm
SoCo, while I feel sorry for your loss, your family must of had a terrible Lawyer if you didn’t get justice.
We had the then Assistant District Attorney, who is now the DA. Kinda telling that he’s “Tough on Crime” now, but 10 years ago, he wasn’t…..
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
12:38 pm
“union is protesting because they are being asked to fund but only a portion of their healthcare and pension.”
I can see that YOU are not keeping up with the conversation either. The unions have conceded they will accept the wage and benefits changes if the gutting of collective bargaining rights is removed. The governor has, so far, refused that offer.
Joe the Plutocrat
February 21st, 2011
12:39 pm
what cracks me up about this mess is the fact that politicians are pointing fingers at “unions”. but for the sake of arguments, let’s say the GOP governor’s approach is valid; why stop at the teacher’s union? so yeah, maybe CBA’s are the root of all evil, is not the legislative branch of any government a ‘collective bargaining’ agent for citizens? let’s have the lawmakers and politicos ‘give back $300 million. in fact (as I suggested on CT’s blog), why not “privatize” the lawmaking process? why not replace elected officials with “elected” consultants (1099). pay them a per diem for the time they are “in session” and get rid of pensions, health insurance, etc.? if this mess is due to a previous CBA, it needs to be resolved via a new CBA, or as with lawmakers, make EVERY teacher on the public payroll a non-emplyee “contractor” and pay them $25/hour ($52,000/year). no perqs, no health insurance (let them shop the private sector like the rest of us). ditto police officers, firemen, bus drivers, sanitation workers…