In Wisconsin battle, it’s not about the budget
You still can’t find a single Democratic state senator in the entire state of Wisconsin. All 14 of them remain in self-imposed exile in Illinois, and as long as they stay there, they can continue to prevent passage of a highly controversial bill that would sharply reduce benefits for teachers and other government employees and, more importantly, gut public labor unions.
It’s that second aspect of the bill that has drawn national and even international attention. As the Milwaukee Journal-Sentinel reports:
The bill would require most public workers to pay half their pension costs – typically 5.8% of pay for state workers – and in many cases at least 12% of their health care costs. Union leaders have said they are willing to accept those concessions, which total nearly $330 million through June 2013.
Under the bill, the unions could not bargain over anything but wages, would have to hold annual elections to keep their organizations intact and would lose the ability to have union dues deducted from state paychecks. Employees would no longer have to automatically pay union dues, but could choose whether they want to do so.
In other words, the unions are willing to swallow the economic demands. If givebacks are necessary to help balance the state budget in a time of crisis, the employees say they’re willing to do their part.
However, Gov. Scott Walker has refused to accept that offer and also refuses to negotiate with labor or Democrats. He doesn’t see this merely as a chance to win an important battle against organized labor; he sees it as an opportunity to win the entire war, forever, by stripping state unions of most of their power and influence. And if he succeeds, the implications for the labor movement nationwide would be profound.
At the moment, only five states prohibit collective bargaining by teachers and other public employees, as the map below demonstrates. Georgia is one of the five. (Note: The right to bargain collectively does not imply the legal right to strike in many states.)
Teachers unions in particular have long been a favorite target of conservatives, with a lot of people blaming unions for poor classroom performance. So the map above made me curious: How does the ability of teachers to form unions and bargain collectively correlate to classroom performance? If strong teachers unions truly do hamper education, the five states that ban collective bargaining by teachers ought to rank fairly high in educational performance.
Here are the numbers for the five states in question, plus Wisconsin, on the National Assessment of Educational Progress, given annually across the nation to fourth and eighth graders.
Texas, North Carolina and Virginia are roughly at the national average. Georgia and South Carolina trail in most categories. Wisconsin does very well.
Here are the state rankings for average SAT scores for the six states in question:
Wisconsin 2
Virginia 33
North Carolina 39
Texas 45
Georgia 47
South Carolina 48
The numbers above might be a little misleading, given that most Wisconsin seniors take the ACT rather than the SAT. Then again, Wisconsin ranks second on the ACT as well.
– Jay Bookman
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618 comments Add your comment
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
February 21st, 2011
10:38 am
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
10:35 am
When it comes to unions, the candidate doesn’t matter. Only the party.
Southern Comfort
February 21st, 2011
10:38 am
HD @ 10:23
Agree 100% with your take. I know and respect your opinion because you were raised by a union member.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
10:39 am
“but this strikes me as a bargaining ploy”
I would agree IF this had been a bargaining situation, but it is not. He is trying to railroad through the ENTIRE bill and, so far, as stated he will not back down from the union busting provisions of that bill.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
10:40 am
“When it comes to unions, the candidate doesn’t matter. Only the party”
This may change that dynamic.
Del
February 21st, 2011
10:40 am
Walker was elected as governor based on what he said needed to be done in Wisconsin. He’s now doing what he told the voters he’d do if elected. It doesn’t matter what Mark Miller says on “The Early Show” from an undisclosed location or what Tracy Fuller says, it’s what the voters heard before they voted. The unions and the democrats could very well lose big on this one, if so, it will only be what they deserve.
jewcowboy
February 21st, 2011
10:41 am
Doggone/GA,
They key word in that statement is “so far”.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
February 21st, 2011
10:43 am
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
10:40 am
Nah. Unions always lean left. Sure, they may hedge their bets and throw a few financial crumbs to the right, but the left gets the lion’s share of the cash cow.
Hillbilly Deluxe
February 21st, 2011
10:44 am
SoCo @ 10:34
In my county, a large portion of local Chamber of Commerce funds come from the local hotel/motel tax. I seldom hear the people who complain about government “involvement” in business complain about that.
Sort of reminds me of a guy who was running for County Comissioner. When he was talking to me, trying to get me to vote for him, he talked about how he was a business owner, believed in limited government, wanted to cut county spending (which I was in favor of, by the way) and was a faithful follower of Brother Bob Barr. I didn’t vote for him but he managed to win. So one of the first things he did upon being elected (and this is a part time job in our county) was to put his entire family on the county insurance policy at a cost to taxpayers of $14,000+ a year.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
10:44 am
“They key word in that statement is “so far”.”
Yes, of course it is…but he has now placed himself in a position where backing off the union busting part of that bill is going to be a HUGE victory for the unions.
My worst fear, at this point, is that one of those Democratic legislators will cave first and give him the quorum needed to pass the bill intact.
larry
February 21st, 2011
10:44 am
This is also yet another way to make sure Democrats do not have funding for future elections. Ever since Citizen Unitied opened up a huge can of worms, this was item number 1 on the agenda of most Repubs, and the U.S. Chanber of Commerce.
They have busted most private unions, and now , they are going after public unions.
But , one problem , this has backfired and now people are waking up to what has happened.
I wonder if a recall effort is underway for Gov. Walker.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
10:45 am
“Nah. Unions always lean left”
Which, of course, explains why three big public unions SUPPORTED Walker’s campaign for governor
jewcowboy
February 21st, 2011
10:45 am
I’m just curious as to why so many Republicans on this page are against unions? Could you please name one other institution that currently represents middle and blue collar Americans in our political process in a meaningful way?
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
February 21st, 2011
10:45 am
Hey, where can I get some of those bogus “Dr’s absenses” forms. Oh yeah, the local union steward.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
10:46 am
“represents middle and blue collar Americans”
You’ve just answered your own question
Del
February 21st, 2011
10:46 am
Granny, how do I know? because nobody has been able to quote a creditable source from either the union or its membership that they’re willing to accept the governor’s financial conditions.
Lil' Barry Bailout
February 21st, 2011
10:47 am
Murph
This whole idea of “Unions are Bad” parallels the thinking that “Government is Bad”.
——————-
Government IS bad. That’s why we have a constitution to protect us from it. If you love government, it’s because you’re a parasite.
jm
February 21st, 2011
10:47 am
“At the moment, only five states prohibit collective bargaining by teachers and other public employees, as the map below demonstrates.”
Jesus, the gov’s ok with collective bargaining over wages. Isn’t that enough? He wants to pull out all the “benefit” stuff so politicians don’t keep writing future checks taxpayers can’t afford to cash.
Come on….
Jay
February 21st, 2011
10:48 am
Del, you clearly appreciate the importance of the union’s position: If they are indeed willing to accept the benefit cuts to help ease the budget crisis, then the whole moral case changes. It then becomes a raw and ugly power play by the governor.
You understand that, which is why you continue to try to deny reality. You need to keep believing that the unions won’t compromise, because that’s the only way you can keep justifying it to yourself.
On the other hand, nobody in Wisconsin, including the governor, is trying to pretend that the unions’ concession isn’t real. Nobody is trying to claim it’s disinformation.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
10:48 am
“because nobody has been able to quote a creditable source from either the union or its membership that they’re willing to accept the governor’s financial conditions”
How about a quote from someone credible that those reports are wrong? I’ve been hearing that report since at least last Friday, and have not, so far heard anyone dispute it…let alone anyone credible.
Adam
February 21st, 2011
10:49 am
Del: It’s starting to look like you just dislike the Democrats in general, and the unions by extension only. i.e. if the Republicans support busting the unions and Democrats oppose, they Republicans must be right and the Democrats must be wrong. That’s what it looks like to me, from your arguments, anyway.
larry
February 21st, 2011
10:49 am
Doyle starts with “D”.
Deficit starts with “D”.
Democrat starts with “D”.
Deal starts with a “D”
Repulsive starts with a “R”
Reverse starts with a “R”
Republican starts with a ” R”
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
10:50 am
Del
February 21st, 2011
10:46 am
Granny, how do I know? because nobody has been able to quote a creditable source from either the union or its membership that they’re willing to accept the governor’s financial conditions.
Actually a creditable source was sited, more than once above. Your unwillingless to give them credit is your issue.
Blather on dude!
jewcowboy
February 21st, 2011
10:51 am
Doggone/GA,
“You’ve just answered your own question”
Bingo!
Adam
February 21st, 2011
10:51 am
Wrong ends with G for governor.
Or we could stop the word game.
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
10:52 am
Leg Lamp: Such decorum you bring to the debate
So I could have just as easily said “the Republican” instead of “the wimp”. What the difference. As for the heart of the post you commented on, Walker did threaten to lay off 6000 and he has not kept his promise, so “Wimp” sounds appropriate.
How about yourself, what rules of decorum do you adhere to.
AmVet
February 21st, 2011
10:52 am
jcb, it is a typical neo-con ploy.
Denigrate the very institutions that have enabled one personally, to partake of the American bounty.
Labor Day off, paid vacations, overtime pay, safety regulations in dangerous jobs, and on and on and on.
The cons take enormous advantage of them but deride those that provided them.
Ingrates.
As for the government, just read the bilge water of certain lil’ blogger here who has sucked at Uncle Sam’s teats for his entire life. Yet everybody but him is apparently a parasite…
jm
February 21st, 2011
10:52 am
Jay, your analysis would make a statistician vomit profusely into a toilet bowl. Followed by a bout of crying in despair, followed by a jump off a bridge.
Your analysis does absolutely nothing to prove, or disprove, the relevance of collective bargaining in education. To determine the significance of collective bargaining, said analysis would need to control for a variety of other factors that also influence educational achievement.
Jay, please keep your dispute of what the Governor is doing in the political realm, not the analysis realm, because your analysis holds no water.
Lil' Barry Bailout
February 21st, 2011
10:53 am
48% Back GOP Governor in Wisconsin Spat, 38% Side With Unions
A new Rasmussen Reports national telephone survey finds that 48% of Likely U.S. Voters agree more with the Republican governor in his dispute with union workers. Thirty-eight percent (38%) agree more with the unionized public employees, while 14% are undecided.
—————–
No wonder Jay and the AJC aren’t reporting any poll results on the subject.
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
10:54 am
Leg Lamp: “Oops…..my bad. It’s left leaning “progressive” teachers and union officials spewing the hate.”
And just like on the streets of Cairo, justified hate is a beautiful thing to watch. May it succeed !
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
February 21st, 2011
10:55 am
What I loved was listening to the rabble rousers who were saying this is not about the teacher or the unions…..it’s about the children. So they lay out of work, shut down the school systems, and carry signs equating the Wisc Gov to Hitler, Mussolini, and Mubarek. What’s examples to “the children”.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
February 21st, 2011
10:56 am
“Walker, remember, is not removing unions’ fundamental power to bargain for wages. He is demanding that state workers put 5.8% of their wages toward retirement and that they cover 12.6% of their health care premiums, which would still have them paying more than $100 less a month than the average schmoe. He is also proposing that elected officials determine the shape of employee benefits without having to bargain them, and this as much as the added cost has unions crying “unfair.”"
AmVet
February 21st, 2011
10:57 am
jm, did you even read what the man wrote?
Go back, reread it and then laugh at your own post…
jm
February 21st, 2011
10:57 am
Jay, swallow this…..
The results show teacher unionism to be the most significant factor in the decline in scores.
Teachers’ unions and excellence in education: An analysis of the decline in SAT scores
http://www.springerlink.com/content/35240435088np2v2/
Controversy surrounds the recent finding that college entrance exams are lower today than they were twenty years ago, but little empirical evidence has been offered in the debate. This paper uses cross-sectional regression analysis to examine the decline in SAT scores between 1972 and 1983. Three explanations are tested: the changing social environment, the financial resources devoted to education, and the emergence of militant teacher unions. The results show teacher unionism to be the most significant factor in the decline in scores.
-Jay, I don’t if this guy’s analysis is valid. But I know yours isn’t.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
10:57 am
“I don’t if this guy’s analysis is valid”
but you quote it anyway
stands for decibels
February 21st, 2011
10:58 am
At the risk of going all AmVet/J-Nix “Hey I’m just keepin’ it real, mannn” at this here blog…
Walker’s extremism should not be used to justify extremism on the other side.
Jay, just the other day I was trying to explain to my kid what the word “equivocation” meant; you’ve handed me a great example.
(also, it’s good to know that those of us who supported candidate Obama’s stated position on EFCA—you know, the guy who won in an electoral landslide in 2008? That guy?—and thus attempted to hand America’s organized labor in the private sector a friggin’ life preserver, are regarded as “extremists” by the liberal media.)
Kamchak
February 21st, 2011
10:58 am
Shorter jm: I loves me some Ayn Rand.
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
10:58 am
Did someone type “examples to the children.” Like what. Glenn Richardson. Mark Sanford. Nathan Deal… What examples to the children.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
February 21st, 2011
10:59 am
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
10:54 am
Why not ask Lara. Logan about that “justified hate”?
Jimmy62
February 21st, 2011
10:59 am
Adam: If union members want to contribute to their union, they can do so, no one is stopping them. Taxpayers dollars should not be used to pay for this collection, as is currently done. If the union members don’t actually want to pay their union dues unless it’s forcefully withheld from their paychecks, then they must not be all that dedicated to the union.
jm
February 21st, 2011
10:59 am
Doggone 10:57 – that analysis is 10,000 times more valid than Jay’s “look at this chart, and look at this chart” theoretical non-causal or reverse-causal analysis. It’s a joke.
Del
February 21st, 2011
10:59 am
Jay, if you’re unable to support your statement that the union and their membership have publicly agreed to benefit cuts and everyone in Wisconsin is aware of their acceptance either admit it or provide proof of their stated acceptance. Presuming that I’m denying reality only because I want to believe that they’re unwilling to compromise is purely your presumption, which proves nothing. I’m only saying that I haven’t seen any creditable reports stating their willingness. Prove me wrong
RW-(the original)
February 21st, 2011
11:00 am
I’d be more likely to believe the unions seriousness on this compromise if that had been their position before the Democrats scurried off Illinois and the siege on the statehouse failed.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
11:01 am
“Taxpayers dollars should not be used to pay for this collection, as is currently done”
They aren’t taxpayer dollars once they are paid as SALARY to the employees
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
11:02 am
“that analysis is 10,000 times more valid than Jay’s ”
You can say that…after saying you don’t know if it’s valid?
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
11:03 am
“I’d be more likely to believe the unions seriousness on this compromise if that had been their position before the Democrats scurried off Illinois and the siege on the statehouse failed”
If the Democratic legislators had NOT “scurried off” the bill would have been PASSED and it wouldn’t matter if the unions were willing to compromise on the wage and benefits part.
jm
February 21st, 2011
11:04 am
This battle is just corrupt monopsony lovers and politician favor buyers versus those who want rational, responsible good government. Simple as that. Governor good, teachers unions bad.
Game over. I hope the Gov takes the Dems to court and gets a ruling that in their absence he can pass the laws. This is an abuse of the democratic process by Democrats and they should go to jail.
Adam
February 21st, 2011
11:05 am
Jimmy62: There’s no point in NOT taking it from the paycheck as an option, because teachers get paid through tax dollars. All you’re doing is creating that extra step for the tax dollars to go right back to union dues. What exactly is the point other than to create an extra step? Are you hoping that everyone will suddenly not want to pay dues because they have to do it without convenience?
stands for decibels
February 21st, 2011
11:05 am
RW, I’ve yet to hear you complain of GOP senators denying an up-or-down vote on countless bills the past several years, due to their own version of “scurrying off.”
jm
February 21st, 2011
11:05 am
Doggone 11:02 – yes. Because the guy at least used regression analysis to look at the issue.
Now, the study might be old, and the guy might be biased. But there’s no reason to believe so as of now. I’ll take the regression study over Jay’s analysis 10-1.
stands for decibels
February 21st, 2011
11:06 am
oh, and jm, tell us how you “voted for Obama” again.
That’s always a hoot.
Del
February 21st, 2011
11:06 am
Granny, “creditable sources were sited more than once” Where?whose posts? identify those creditable sources and then you can accuse me of blathering.
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
11:07 am
Lil Barry
Perhaps Rasmussen should have stayed in Wisconsin when polling
“By a 2 to 1 margin, voters across that state are either strongly opposed to Walker’s proposal or think that it goes too far”
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
11:07 am
“This is an abuse of the democratic process by Democrats and they should go to jail.”
Nope. This is a textbook example of “rules have consequences” Quorum rules exist PRECISELY to help prevent a small majority from pushing through bills regardless. They have to have a stated percentage of members of the legislative body THERE in order for their votes to be valid. The Dems are simply exercising their right to use those rules to prevent a bad bill from being passed.
AmVet
February 21st, 2011
11:07 am
jm, this morning you and the word analysis are total oxymorons.
You absurdly claim that JB says something he does not.
And then you go all batshiite crazy over it.
Reading comprehension is not your enemy…
jm
February 21st, 2011
11:08 am
Got my econ terms backwards. A labor union with collective bargaining rights is a monopoly, not a monopsony…. oh well. Obviously a bit rusty.
Adam
February 21st, 2011
11:08 am
dB @ 11:05: hear hear
RW-(the original)
February 21st, 2011
11:08 am
stands @ 11:05,
Examples please? And cloture isn’t an example.
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
11:08 am
Del
I’m with Jay on that and you…
“You understand that, which is why you continue to try to deny reality. You need to keep believing that the unions won’t compromise, because that’s the only way you can keep justifying it to yourself.”
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
11:09 am
“identify those creditable sources and then you can accuse me of blathering.”
Granny…I think he’s getting desperate. First he says he hasn’t heard ANY reports of concessions from the unions. Now the next step is to claim that neither I nor Jay posted anything with NAMES of union officials in them!
jm
February 21st, 2011
11:09 am
sfd 11:06 – I did, and contributed money. Last 3 times OFA called me I in no uncertain terms told them to f-off despite a tirade of reasons I should somehow love Obama.
They have no clue. OFA is floundering so now its trying to make itself relevant again by inserting itself into the Wisconsin mess. Disgusting.
stands for decibels
February 21st, 2011
11:09 am
And cloture isn’t an example.
of course it is.
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
11:10 am
Leg Lamp: “Why not ask Lara. Logan about that “justified hate”?”
From that comment I’m assuming you think the Mubarek regime should have been propped up, in the interest of preserving order ?
Adam
February 21st, 2011
11:10 am
Doggone: NAME NAMES DAMMIT
Granny Godzilla
February 21st, 2011
11:11 am
Y’all read the story about Abe Lincoln a fine Republican crawling out the window of a locked room to stop a vote……
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
11:11 am
Why are Republicans so jealous of union employees.
jm
February 21st, 2011
11:11 am
Doggone 11:07 – as always you’re ignorant. Quorum rules were around to prevent a minority from locking out a majority and taking over government without a real mandate. The minority has found a new way to abuse this by stopping the process of government by not showing up. They should go to jail and I hope they do so.
Jimmy62
February 21st, 2011
11:11 am
My personal hostility towards unions came when I was 16 and got my first job as a cashier at a grocery store. I said I didn’t want to join the union because I was earning minimum wage, didn’t expect to earn more in that position, and was satisfied with what I was being offered. So what happened? First the union rep bugged me about joining a bunch of times, then got other employees to mention how great it was. After I refused to be intimidated or swayed, somehow my third, fourth, and fifth paychecks had union dues withheld. So I bitched, it was taken to the union HQ, they said they had a form signed by me showing that I wanted to join. I said I never, ever signed such a thing. They chose not to believe me. Lots of bitching later, turns out the local union rep forged my signature. And what happened? I got my money back, and did not join the union. And the local rep didn’t even get a slap on the wrist because she did such a good job getting people to sign up.
Lying evil hypocrites, that’s been my every experience with private sector unions. And public sector ones shouldn’t even exist.
stands for decibels
February 21st, 2011
11:11 am
sfd 11:06 – I did, and contributed money.
given that you appear to have disagreed with him on virtually every domestic issue Obama had ever staked a position to, that seems an odd thing to do.
jm
February 21st, 2011
11:12 am
AmVet 11:07 – go re-read the second 1/2 of his post dude.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
11:13 am
“as always you’re ignorant. Quorum rules were around to prevent a minority from locking out a majority and taking over government without a real mandate”
Ok, that’s my laugh for the day.
jm
February 21st, 2011
11:13 am
sfd 11:11 – guess I bought the BS hope-change bit too much. Thought he was a centrist. He’s clearly left of center, and pretty far left of center. He’s not a moderate. My mistake. Not to be repeated.
Del
February 21st, 2011
11:14 am
Doggone, where did you or Jay post quotes from union officials stating that the membership was willing to accept the reduction in benefits as proposed by Governor Walker?
Jimmy62
February 21st, 2011
11:15 am
All of you defending the Democrat reps for abandoning the jobs they were elected to do… have now lost the right to complain if the GOP shuts down Washington DC over the refusal of the Dems to make budget cuts. Or be branded hypocrites. But then most of you already are.
Jay
February 21st, 2011
11:15 am
Del, I did support my contention with quotes from the union leaders. Here’s another one, from the head of the teachers’ union:
“Money issues are off the table. Public employees have agreed to Gov. Walker’s pension and health care concessions, which he says will solve the budget challenge.”
Every news outlet in Wisconsin is reporting it the same way.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
11:16 am
“where did you or Jay post quotes from union officials stating that the membership was willing to accept the reduction in benefits as proposed by Governor Walke”
there’s this link at the bottom of every page of this blog titled “Show All” it greatly facilitates searching through the entire blog. Try it, you might like it.
Hillbilly Deluxe
February 21st, 2011
11:17 am
Jimmy62 @ 11:11
I’d be curious as to when and where that was. When I was working in a grocery store, even before I joined the union, I was making about 30% more than minimum wage, as a starrting salary. I may be older than you, though.
Definition of credible source
If a source agrees with your position, it’s credible. If a source doesn’t agree with your position, it isn’t credible. I’d say that holds true all across the political spectrum.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
11:17 am
“have now lost the right to complain if the GOP shuts down Washington DC over the refusal of the Dems to make budget cuts”
I don’t have any complaints if that happens, in fact I think it might be one of the best things they could do. Show their TRUE colors.
AmVet
February 21st, 2011
11:18 am
Sorry, jm, I’m not trying to embarrass you but you couldn’t be more wrong.
Here is how this is going to play out, or at least, generally does.
I’ll show everybody here EXACTLY where you jumped the shark.
And you will parse and conflate and spin and use a variety of logical fallacies in a failed effort at damage control
But if you want me to to through this exercise with you, I gladly will…
booger
February 21st, 2011
11:18 am
Jay has somehow managed to spin this debate to imply that lack of collective bargainning equals bad student performance. I would like to offer another potential cause of bad student performance. Maybe Jay could provide us with the racial makeup of the five states in question vs. that of Wisconsin.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
11:18 am
“Every news outlet in Wisconsin is reporting it the same way”
But JAY…you didn’t NAME that person! So it just can’t POSSIBLY be true, didn’t you know that? /snark
TaxPayer
February 21st, 2011
11:19 am
All of you defending the Democrat reps for abandoning the jobs they were elected to do… have now lost the right to complain if the GOP shuts down Washington DC over the refusal of the Dems to make budget cuts. Or be branded hypocrites. But then most of you already are.
The Party of No is unionized! Wow! And hypocrites too! Will wonders ever cease.
@@
February 21st, 2011
11:19 am
Personally, I think every state oughta duplicate California’s “Parent Trigger Law”. Teachers’ unions hate it when parents can organize against ‘em.
jm
February 21st, 2011
11:19 am
Jay, since you’re getting into the education statistical analysis industry, you should probably point out that Wisconsin is 90% white. And race is highly correlated with educational achievement, along with the education of the parents, the availability of reading in the house, etc.
Go control for those, go do a regression analysis, and come back with your analysis of collective bargaining and relative unionization in the 50 states and let me know your results.
Dave R.
February 21st, 2011
11:19 am
Even the libs on Morning Joe this morning admitted that collective bargaining has a long-term effect on budgets.
You’re losing this battle on the facts, boys and girls.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
11:20 am
“Jay has somehow managed to spin this debate to imply that lack of collective bargainning equals bad student performance”
Actually? No he didn’t. He showed the the presence of collective bargaing does NOT HURT student performance.
get out much?
February 21st, 2011
11:20 am
Just another reason why no one in their right mind should consider going into teaching as a profession.
RW-(the original)
February 21st, 2011
11:21 am
of course it is.
Funny how quickly it went from the glue that has held our Republic together to a Republican dirty trick as soon as the Democrats gained a majority, but for what it’s worth I don’t think it was ever meant for advice and consent and thus don’t support it for Presidential appointees regardless of the party affiliation of the President or whichever party holds the Senate majority.
Del
February 21st, 2011
11:21 am
Jay, post a link to those reports. Doggone says that you’ve posted them but I can’t find them.
jm
February 21st, 2011
11:21 am
“He showed the the presence of collective bargaing does NOT HURT student performance.”
No he didn’t.
jm
February 21st, 2011
11:22 am
And Amvet, Doggone’s 11:20 proves my point.
stands for decibels
February 21st, 2011
11:22 am
guess I bought the BS hope-change bit too much. Thought he was a centrist. He’s clearly left of center, and pretty far left of center. He’s not a moderate.
Please. you’re literate, you can suss out candidates’ positions, and you are well aware that Obama’s simply made good on as many of his campaign positions/promises as has been reasonably practical. There’s no flim-flammery here. You weren’t promised some Blue Dog and given Che Guevara instead.
He ran as a center-left Democrat – arguably the most conservative of the three still vying just before Super Tuesday (Edwards and Clinton being the other two), but still in his heart a progressive, who saw the merits in single-payer health insurance “if you were starting from scratch,” as he put it — and that’s how he’s governed.
(I think he’s been too damned willing to compromise, and too unwilling to attack conservative ideology head-on, but then again, I don’t have to run for re-election in 2012.)
Nice Guy
February 21st, 2011
11:22 am
“But JAY…you didn’t NAME that person! So it just can’t POSSIBLY be true, didn’t you know that? /snark”
Teh brown nosing. It burns. Oy.
Doggone/GA
February 21st, 2011
11:22 am
“Doggone says that you’ve posted them but I can’t find them.”
didn’t look very hard, did you. I posted a link.
stands for decibels
February 21st, 2011
11:23 am
but for what it’s worth I don’t think it was ever meant for advice and consent and thus don’t support it for Presidential appointees regardless of the party affiliation of the President or whichever party holds the Senate majority.
fair enough.
Left wing management
February 21st, 2011
11:23 am
jm: “Thought he was a centrist. He’s clearly left of center, and pretty far left of center. He’s not a moderate. My mistake. Not to be repeated. ”
This indicates a flaw in your perception. Obama is a center right leader. Period. Everything that he’s done – from his health care bill which not only preserves power of private insurers but reinforces it, to his stimulus and kid-gloves treatment of Wall St (after all, his whole financial team consists of Wall St insiders) – exhibits a thoroughgoing agreement at a deep level with right wing / neoliberal policies of market absolutism and service to financial interests first and crumbs to the rest, lip service to public investment, deficits as the be-all/end-all, and so forth.
Obama’s infamous praise of Ronald Reagan during the campaign was a source of puzzlement for both left-wing and right-wing observers, both of them cynically assuming it was meant for purely rhetorical purposes, but what both camps failed to realize was just how sincerely he meant it. As was the case with Clinton before him, Obama loves nothing so much as to continue carrying out Reagan’s basic governing philosophy of tax-cutting, financial-interest privileging priorities.
AmVet
February 21st, 2011
11:24 am
jm
February 21st, 2011
10:52 am
Jay, your analysis would make a statistician vomit profusely into a toilet bowl. Followed by a bout of crying in despair, followed by a jump off a bridge.
Your analysis does absolutely nothing to prove, or disprove, the relevance of collective bargaining in education.
I have one question for you, jm.
Where exactly did he say that it did?
Again, you absurdly claim that JB says things he does not.
Adam
February 21st, 2011
11:25 am
jm: without a real mandate.
There is no such thing as a “real mandate.” Put it out of your mind. The majority doesn’t get to decide everything while completely ignoring the minority. The minority was still elected to office by different districts and so on. Those people want their interests represented too. Stop telling them to f*** off.
Jimmy62: And what happened? I got my money back, and did not join the union
Ultimately it sounds like a success story, although I do agree the union rep should have faced some consequences for that. Forging a signature is a crime IIRC.
Lying evil hypocrites, that’s been my every experience with private sector unions.
I can understand how one experience gives you no great love for unions and union reps. They’re not all like that, I can assure you. I’ve only ever been in a union once and there was never any pressure to be in it. To the contrary, there was CONSIDERABLE pressure from several of my employers never to join unions. One even subjected me to anti-union propaganada as part of my “training” and I bought into it and thought all unions were bad. I have evolved since then. Maybe you should consider that.
All of you defending the Democrat reps for abandoning the jobs they were elected to do… have now lost the right to complain if the GOP shuts down Washington DC over the refusal of the Dems to make budget cuts.
Nah, I say go for it. That will cause negative consequences for them. And it’s not like it’s unprecedented. It’s also not like they haven’t tried, in their small way, to cause government to be unable to do anything of any real importance. We complained when they did it, and now you complain when the Democrats in a state you don’t even inhabit use the rules against the majority. I think after 2 years of being obstructed, Democrats have earned the right to obstruct on a couple of key issues. So the guys in Wisconsin do this ONE TIME and you’re up in arms. It took over 60 filibusters before the left started going “Hey wait a second…”
Dave R is always good for a laugh: You’re losing this battle on the facts, boys and girls.
@@
February 21st, 2011
11:25 am
Every news outlet in Wisconsin is reporting it the same way.
Gallup–Sept. 2010: WASHINGTON, D.C. — For the fourth straight year, the majority of Americans say they have little or no trust in the mass media to report the news fully, accurately, and fairly. The 57% who now say this is a record high by one percentage point.
Lower-income Americans and those with less education are generally more likely to trust the media than are those with higher incomes and more education.
schnirt
Adam
February 21st, 2011
11:26 am
@@: Lower-income Americans and those with less education are generally more likely to trust the media than are those with higher incomes and more education.
I know at least one media corporation that COUNTS on that. And it works on my mom every time.
Del
February 21st, 2011
11:26 am
I wonder if Jay’s little alter ego’s could post a link to all these reports that the Unions accept the Governors cuts in benefits. I’m beginning to think that they really can’t so they only toss out half witted insults to cover their inadequacy.