The hypocrisy of the Tenthers and states’ rights defenders
Conservative Republicans make a great show about states’ rights these days. It’s all the rage. The Tenth Amendment, they say, limits Congress to those areas in which the Constitution explicitly empowers it to act. All other responsibility resides with the states. They’re also not real happy with the way the commerce clause — in their eyes — has been stretched to apply to areas well beyond what the Founders intended, particularly health care.
Georgia’s Republican congressmen have been among those leading that charge. U.S. Reps. Phil Gingrey and Tom Price — both of whom happen to be physicians — were co-sponsors last year of a resolution declaring that “the very future of freedom and limited government depends on a restoration of American federalism and a real decentralization of government power.”
In remarks on the House floor, Gingrey has protested bitterly against a “‘Washington-knows-best’ solution and a one-size-fits-all approach,” and both men supported a new House rule requiring bill sponsors to cite a specific power enumerated in the Constitution that would authorize the proposed action.
Of course, the true test of your allegiance to principle comes not when you try to use it to restrict what the other guy does, but when you apply it to yourself. It’s all well and good to preach about the sanctity of marriage vows, for example, but the real test comes in whether you honor those vows in your own life.
So I found it interesting that earlier this week, the House Judiciary Committee decided to brush aside supposed concerns about federalism and states’ rights. By a vote of 18-15 — all Republicans for, all Democrats against — it approved a law that would directly pre-empt and override state laws and longstanding state authority and intrude on states’ rights by imposing a federal, one-size-fits-all solution.
The issue was medical malpractice, a favorite conservative cause. According to Politico, the bill in question would put a “three-year statute of limitations on medical lawsuits, cap non-economic damages at $250,000, and limit punitive damages to $250,000 or twice the economic damages, whichever is greater.”
For the moment, let’s set aside debate on the merits of the law and focus on its necessity: Why should Congress interfere in such an area, given that most medical malpractice suits are argued in state courts, under state laws? Until now, every state has had the right to decide such issues on its own. Some states have tough laws, some have more lenient laws. That’s the essence of states’ rights, as I understand it. So what’s the justification for imposing what Gingrey might call “a Washington-knows-best’ solution”?
More importantly, where exactly in the Constitution does it say that Congress shall be empowered to dictate to state governments, state courts, state judges and state juries how they should handle state cases of alleged medical malpractice? What’s the source of that federal authority? I’ve looked in my handy pocket Constitution, and I can’t find such a provision anywhere. Under conservative legal theory, it certainly can’t be the commerce clause, given that the commerce involved is strictly intra-state, not interstate. Most people do not cross state lines to get medical care.
Curious, I went digging into the Congressional Record. Under new House rules, remember, sponsors are required to cite congressional authority for their proposed bill. And sure enough, on Jan. 24, the bill’s sponsor — a “Mr. Gingrey of Georgia” — cited the commerce clause as his authority.
– Jay Bookman
Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
494 comments Add your comment
Adam
February 18th, 2011
2:43 pm
Dave R: People who think they know it all, really tick off those of us who actually do . . .
If you really believe you are the latter half of that statement, then you are just an arrogant fool.
Nice Guy
February 18th, 2011
2:43 pm
“That’s not good enough for you anti-union zealots, it’s your way or the highway, this is america and that’s not the way it works, deal with it..”
Really, Mick, is that why a 1,000 plus teachers didn’t show up for work today, is that why the Democratic leadership in Wisconsin is camped out in some hotel in a bordering state and refusing to vote….
Ooooooookkkkkkkk.
jm
February 18th, 2011
2:43 pm
Adam 2:42 – you have blinders on.
Adam
February 18th, 2011
2:45 pm
jm: Where exactly are you getting this idea that 2/3 of the budget is entitlements? If that were true, Obama’s budget must have cut absolutely everything else, since he cut about 1/4-1/3.
jm
February 18th, 2011
2:45 pm
Adam, you’re apparently not aware of the increase in the medicare income cap already passed by obama, and the increase on the application of medicare taxes to investment income (of all things), which is a tax increase.
Not to mention Obama keeps pushing for increases and the only reason we haven’t gotten more is a Republican House.
Reminds me, I may need to take my bond portfolio to the hospital as it gets older…. sure glad I have Medicare to help me cover the health care costs for my bonds!!!
jt
February 18th, 2011
2:45 pm
Under federal law, marijuana is treated like every other controlled substance, such as cocaine and heroin. The federal government places every controlled substance in a schedule, in principle according to its relative potential for abuse and medicinal value. Under the CSA, marijuana is classified as a Schedule I drug, which means that the federal government views marijuana as highly addictive and having no medical value. Doctors may not “prescribe” marijuana for medical use under federal law, though they can “recommend” its use under the First Amendment.
The Drug Enforcement Administration (DEA), charged with enforcing federal drug laws, has taken a substantial interest in medical marijuana patients and caregivers in general, and large cultivation and distribution operations more specifically. Over the past few years, dozens of people have been targets of federal enforcement actions. Many of them have either been arrested or had property seized. More than a hundred are currently in prison or are facing charges or ongoing criminal or civil investigations for their cultivation or distribution of medical marijuana.
Growing this dangerous drug amonsgt the tomatoes. Is THIS Federal business? Karl Rove and any other “conservative” would think so.(except Ron Paul).
What say you Scout?
Dave R.
February 18th, 2011
2:45 pm
josef, and I’m saying that, regardless of the situation, there is NOTHING more stressful (and a function of public safety – a valid Constitutional role of government) than running into a burning building, especially when you don’t knwo how long the structure has been on fire, and where exactly the fire is.
Teaching, regardless of the stress you and others might get from doing so, does not meet the threshold of a truly hazardous profession as fire-fighting and police do. The act of teaching is NOT a life-threatening measure. The act of fire-fighting is. Therefore, I do not think that a union is warranted for teaching.
Southern Comfort (E.O.I.)
February 18th, 2011
2:45 pm
Ah yes, another episode of ‘we love Reagan when he makes our point and hate him when he doesn’t’
Excellent point, if you were right. I don’t love or hate Reagan. Same as Clinton, Bush I, Bush II, or Obama. They have all been elected to serve, and I respect them for taking that position. Each one of them has done things I agree with, and they have done things I don’t agree with. I enjoy studying history, so there’s no game of love/hate going on.
jm
February 18th, 2011
2:46 pm
Adam
February 18th, 2011
2:45 pm
jm: Where exactly are you getting this idea that 2/3 of the budget is entitlements? If that were true, Obama’s budget must have cut absolutely everything else, since he cut about 1/4-1/3.
DUDE, YOU’RE ON CRACK. GO AWAY.
Mick
February 18th, 2011
2:46 pm
guy
So what do you suggest they do? Bend over and say “thank you sir, may I have another”?
jm
February 18th, 2011
2:47 pm
Adam. You must be the most ignorant person in america…..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Fy2010_spending_by_category.jpg
Southern Comfort (E.O.I.)
February 18th, 2011
2:48 pm
I see no reason why businesses, or employers of any stripe, should be made to collect dues for unions.
Businesses don’t collect dues for unions. When dues are deducted from your paycheck, it’s done as an allottment, just like child support being deducted. You have to authorize that money to be allocated, and it is done just like a direct deposit would be.
Dave R.
February 18th, 2011
2:48 pm
“then you are just an arrogant fool.”
I suggest you consult the nearest mirror, leg-humper.
Nice Guy
February 18th, 2011
2:50 pm
Mick – “So what do you suggest they do?”
I suggest they show up and do their jobs, that’s what. There are millions of people in this country who would kill to have those teaching jobs….therefore all those teachers who are lieing about being sick and didn’t come to work the past couple days, should be handed their walking papers. Get out!
buck@gon
February 18th, 2011
2:50 pm
Memo to: My buddy Jay Jay
From: The Cynthia
Hey hey,
I don’t think you’re all so white, Jay. You do have some street cred with the brothers and sisters. I also like the skin cream you’ve been using. It makes you look a little orange in the winter time, but hey, you need to look the part, or you might be considered, I don’t know, hypocritical?
Anyway, sorry to hear about tonight. What’s the guy’s name so I can meet him? If you don’t have email, can I get his ipad number? Pictures are good and an organizational chart would be good too. I want to know really how close he is to the White House, so I can get a good shot at it.
I wrote that crazy article couple of weeks ago so that Rush Limbaugh would notice me, and it didn’t work out. The whole logic was, you know, I write this lunatic stuff and Limbaugh talks about how ridiculous it is, and the guys in the White House would be like, “hey, who’s this fine young thing in Atlanta?” They fly down here in AF1, pick me up and I go have lunch with HIM. Anyway, it didn’t work. I just got on O’Reilly, and that was too late at night–you know they were probably having a rave party at 1600.
So, I’ll try next time. I hoped maybe my civility piece would help. I mean HE needs help if he’s going to support those rich teachers in Wisconsin. Man, those people are NUTS! Do you know how much they make? I’m glad FOR ONCE that I live in Atlanta.
Anyway, I missed my deadline, you know of riding in AirForce One before his term was halfway over. So, I was thinking, hey, maybe I could hitch my wagon to a new guy–some community organizer brother with a law degree from Harvard. Know any? Course you don’t, you’re….
Oh, sorry I mentioned that.
You’re great, Jay Jay!
Hugs,
XOXO
CC
jm
February 18th, 2011
2:50 pm
Adam – the most the POTUS Politician Prostitute wants to do is to freeze spending. At the highest levels ever. Kind of like saying, well, I drink a case of beer a day. But I’ll stop drinking MORE than a case of beer a day going forward. Brilliant.
Mick
February 18th, 2011
2:50 pm
dave r
I used to respect the fact that you said you held public office but it’s easy to see why you probably weren’t reelected and possibly ran out of town … ego maximus
Adam
February 18th, 2011
2:50 pm
Dave R: The difference is I am not so stupid as to believe I know everything.
jm
February 18th, 2011
2:51 pm
SoCo 2:48 – same thing. If they want dues, they should go get the checks from the employees they represent.
Mick
February 18th, 2011
2:52 pm
guy
Whose going to take their place when anyone with a degree of common sense can see that their profession is getting screwed?
jm
February 18th, 2011
2:54 pm
“I am not so stupid as to believe I know everything.”
Well thank heavens for that. Afraid you don’t even know the basics….
josef nix
February 18th, 2011
2:54 pm
DAVE
Not to go into the which is more, but the days of open doors and tornado and fire drills are gone with the wind…the protocols for varying situations are there and we do have drills on those, too, And less you think that this is just something happening in inner city “those people” environments, you might want to check out the protocols in place at some of the most prestigeous institutions, especially those with clienteles considered high risk targets for terrorist attacks. In many of our schools there IS a uniformed and armed policeman present for the duration of the school day and after school activities…don’t confuse “teaching” duties and responsibilities with “teacher/staff” duties and responsibilities….
Dave R.
February 18th, 2011
2:55 pm
“The difference is I am not so stupid as to believe I know everything.”
The difference is that I least TRY to know what I’m talking about. You? Not so much.
And Mick, I’m not here to earn any respect. And I’m still active in local politics; in fact, I got a very welcome reception from my former colleagues just last night.
Adam
February 18th, 2011
2:55 pm
jm: That graph has a lot of conflicting colors (or maybe it is my screen) but I added all the big pie slices together except the red one assuming it to be Dept of Defense, and assuming the others to be what you call entitlements. It still does not come to 2/3. I would like to do a better analysis of this or have a graph that’s more like this one:
http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2010/02/01/us/budget.html
Not by color, but at least with something telling me what each section is.
I realize that’s a seemingly petty complaint but I really can’t read the graph very well. Is there a better one I can look at, or a breakdown in text? I am serious about analyzing this.
Kamchak
February 18th, 2011
2:55 pm
I despise unions. And Obama loves unions. Ergo, I cannot wait to vote R in 2012.
Shorter jm: I love to play Cowboys and Indians.
Rockerbabe
February 18th, 2011
2:55 pm
Poor republicans, they have been caught, again, speaking out of both sides of their mouths!
I watched PrimeTime Politics on PBS and the state repr that were on, where so upset about getting on $600,000 dollars in the Obama budget for the Savannah Port renovation! My word! These republicans talk and treat President Obama and all Dems like we are dirt beneath their feet and then they want us to go along with their spending plans? Whatever happened to the deficit, the 14+ trillion deficit; I guess when it comes to their earmark request, those are acceptable, but the Dems are not.
If President Obama doesn’t get some of what he wants, then the republicans have not business whinning about not getting what they want! Anyway, if these GA legislators really want money for the Savannah Port improvement, float a bond issue and raise the money that way! This will not contribute to the deficit; one could also raise port usable fees, but the that might eat into the obscene profits of the businessmen-can’t have that. Hey, GA elected legislative leaders, be careful what you ask for, you just might get it!
Nice Guy
February 18th, 2011
2:55 pm
Mick – “getting screwed?”
Really, Mick? Getting screwed? Please, do tell.
Adam
February 18th, 2011
2:58 pm
Dave R: You yourself said you know it all, and are annoyed by others who you claim “think” they know it all. I must not be annoying to you based on that statement, since you don’t actually know it all, nor do I claim to know it all.
jm: So my request for information so I can have “the basics” as you call it, is necessarily a trait of someone who doesn’t know anything about anything?
Nice Guy
February 18th, 2011
2:59 pm
Rockerbabe – “might eat into the obscene profits of the businessmen-can’t have that.”
Wealth envy. Always alive an well on this blog. Always.
Southern Comfort (E.O.I.)
February 18th, 2011
2:59 pm
same thing. If they want dues, they should go get the checks from the employees they represent.
It’s not the same thing. If it were, I wouldn’t be able to have my 401k funds automatically deducted from my check and forwarded to my account. I wouldn’t be able to have my insurance premiums deducted from my paycheck either. If you don’t think someone should be able to have their union dues pulled in that manner, why should they have anything pulled from their checks?
Nice Guy
February 18th, 2011
3:00 pm
Nice bunt, Kamchak.
Mick
February 18th, 2011
3:00 pm
dave r
Believe it or not, I’m glad to hear that you got a warm reception…I’m into the positive and I try not to take commentary here too personal but unions are a flashpoint for me and this new fangled attitude that they’ve outlived their existence is a fool’s errand.
josef nix
February 18th, 2011
3:00 pm
BTW…I’m truly amiss here going on about teachers and the stress they’re under vis a vis the safety and well being of the students…you want stress? Talk to a school bus driver! Unsung heroes…
Dave R.
February 18th, 2011
3:01 pm
“don’t confuse “teaching” duties and responsibilities with “teacher/staff” duties and responsibilities….”
josef, I don’t. But I also ask myself this: “What’s your heart and breathing rate when you’re doing the normal duties you are paid for? How long can you safely and comfortably continue to do your job?”
The answer to #2 for firefighters and police is – not much after age 50.
The answer for #1 is – more than twice their normal rates.
I don’t discount the stress factor in your job, but there are degrees involved that just don’t get you to the level and Constitutionality of public safety personnel, which is why I don’t discount a union possibility for them if their elected leaders don’t staff and equip them properly.
Nice Guy
February 18th, 2011
3:03 pm
Mick – “this new fangled attitude that they’ve outlived their existence is a fool’s errand.”
Hmm. Let’s say it another way: They’ver overstayed their welcome. They’ve become too greedy. They’ve become like 4 year old toddlers who throw temper tantrums when they don’t get what they want. They’ve developed an overwhelming entitlement mentality.
There, that’s better.
jm
February 18th, 2011
3:04 pm
Adam 2:55 – in the 2010 budget, entitlements are closer to 1/2. That is due to elevated military spending on (still) Iraq and Afghanistan. Those costs will be winding down in future budgets. In addition to planned military cuts, by 2015 or so, due also to growth in entitlement spending, they are 2/3 of the budget (Medicare, Medicaid, and SS together).
josef nix
February 18th, 2011
3:05 pm
DAVE
We’ll pick back up on this later…right now I’ve got a couple of errands to run before Friday night music stress relief!
Dave R.
February 18th, 2011
3:06 pm
“but unions are a flashpoint for me and this new fangled attitude that they’ve outlived their existence is a fool’s errand.”
Why? They brought about OSHA safety rules. Do we really need more? They brought about the 40 hour work week. Do you really think we’d get away from that? Overtime, child safety laws, etc,etc,etc. Do you really see a need for unions now that the work has been done?
What do they provide TODAY?
A buggy whip served a purpose 100 years ago. It no longer has relevance today. Unions are nothing more than the equvalent of buggy whips.
Mick
February 18th, 2011
3:07 pm
guy
Ever watch a professional athlete or musician and how they sometimes make it look easy? Go into a classroom sometime day and watch the teacher make it look easy. They go home and pick up the paper and see that there are people out there calling them lazy, thugs and worse. People that haven’t walked the walk should be just a bit more careful about talking the talk…I’m talking about you..
Adam
February 18th, 2011
3:08 pm
jm: Nevermind, I found a much easier to read graph, but it’s not as detailed. It also is confusing at first because it is a file that gets edited every year the data comes out. Current analysis is for FY2010: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:U.S._Federal_Spending_-_FY_2007.png
According to the chart, entitlements are 43% of FY2010’s budget, not 2/3. Compare to my previous link I posted for percentages and you will see that entitlement spending by percentage went up because a lot of other things were cut. So yeah, SOME entitlements were not reduced by Obama’s first budget proposal, but in NEITHER budget does it approach 2/3. You’ll notice that UI was actually reduced. I’m sure there’s more there that has been reduced as well that can be called an entitlement.
by 2015 or so, due also to growth in entitlement spending, they are 2/3 of the budget
Had you said that in the first place I wouldn’t have argued with you about it! I thought you were talking about the current budget, and as far as I can tell looking back at your posts that is what I can reasonably infer you were talking about.
War spending is definitely a big problem. We need to scale that back, big time. Doing that and cutting military spending, along with some entitlement cuts (but not complete defunding) ought to help a lot, but I still think we do need some tax increases in there somewhere in the long run. Right now it would hurt anyone except the top income brackets to get a tax increase.
jm
February 18th, 2011
3:08 pm
SoCo not all union dues are voluntary. If it is a “union shop” or “agency shop”, dues are required as a condition of employment.
Mick
February 18th, 2011
3:11 pm
dave r
For a politician, what have you learned? What exactly do you know about the teaching profession and what needs to be protected? I guarantee you this, once there is no collective bargaining, katy bar the door because the know-it-alls such as yourself will be deciding what you need, absolute power corrupts, absolutely, there needs to be a check.
jm
February 18th, 2011
3:12 pm
Adam 3:08 – see my 3:04. All the budget problems are entitlement related. Due to baby boomer demographics and the rapid increase in health care costs.
Nice Guy
February 18th, 2011
3:13 pm
Mick – “Go into a classroom sometime day and watch the teacher make it look easy”
My wife was a teacher for many years. Did she sometimes complain about her job, sure, we all do now and then. Did she ever say, “dammit, I’m gonna round up my fellow union members and go on strike.” Hell to the no, Mick. Unions are, for the most part, an EFFing joke. Nothing more. They live in la la land and think they are entitled to everything under the sun…and that security is just a given, no matter what their performance. What a joke. Its time they were weened off the governemnt teat….just a bit….not asking a lot of those folks in Wisonsin.
Southern Comfort (E.O.I.)
February 18th, 2011
3:14 pm
SoCo not all union dues are voluntary. If it is a “union shop” or “agency shop”, dues are required as a condition of employment.
Such is not the case with public sector unions, which is the union of despise at the particular moment. I don’t think half the officers I work with are union members. However, they do get to share the benefits (if there are any) of union negotiations. It’s the same with police. They do not have to join the FOP to be a police officer.
Nice Guy
February 18th, 2011
3:16 pm
Gotta go folks. Perhaps I’ll jump back on tonight some time after a fair amount of Jack Daniels.
Either way, let the comedy act that is the union and democrats in Wisconsin continue. They are showing their asses….for all to see. Too many Americans are struggling and out of work for these arrogant fools to be on strike from their jobs. You’d think that if anybody could recognize that, it’d be the Left-nuts on here.
Mick
February 18th, 2011
3:17 pm
guy
You’re the joke and your wife probably would like a divorce from someone who considers teachers “weened of the gov’t teat”. She probably got out because she couldn’t handle the stress which you so callously fail to note. Unfortunately she still has to be with you or not.
jm
February 18th, 2011
3:20 pm
SoCo 3:14 – I have no idea if the WI union dues are voluntary or not. Would be interesting to know…. either way, I just don’t have any faith in unions due to my (and friends’) interactions with them.
Adam
February 18th, 2011
3:22 pm
jm: All the budget problems are entitlement related. Due to baby boomer demographics and the rapid increase in health care costs.
I agree with you to a point. And that point is the assumption that ALL of the budget problems are entitlement related. This is not true, and you’ve actually said so yourself.
Like I said, I agree cuts need to be made to nearly everything. But I do not think that cuts need to be complete defunding.
I would appreciate your analysis on the FY2011 budget proposal. The graph is quite easy to read and look at.
Dave R.
February 18th, 2011
3:25 pm
” What exactly do you know about the teaching profession and what needs to be protected?’
Why must I repeat what has already been said 10 times in the past 2 days for you, Mick?
Adam
February 18th, 2011
3:25 pm
Nice Guy: Too many Americans are struggling and out of work for these arrogant fools to be on strike from their jobs.
Again with the “They should be happy to have a job/do what master says” argument. I call BS. It’s not fair to boil this protest down to a teachers-only, unions-only protest of not having enough money. What is being proposed is that teachers and other govt unions (except police and fire) cannot organize, cannot collect dues as easily, and cannot have any sort of negotiating position in the future. That can lead to nothing but bad news for schools, teachers, students, and parents.
Southern Comfort (E.O.I.)
February 18th, 2011
3:27 pm
jm
I understand that. I’ve seen the good and bad side of unions in my short lifetime. I’ve had family members who joined and others who didn’t. I know the steelworkers took good care of my grandfather, and even respected him after he retired. Your lack of faith in unions is probably just like my lack of faith in political parties.
Adam
February 18th, 2011
3:27 pm
Dave R: Which of these is NOT an important profession:
a) Police
b) Fire
c) Teachers
d) EMTs/Emergency services
jm
February 18th, 2011
3:27 pm
Adam 3:22 – of course I’m for cutting military spending too. But that’s not the crux of the problem.
FY 2011- there are 3 or 4 different proposals out there. I think Ryan’s $35B cuts to discretionary are fine, $60 is ok, more than that… on short notice without a lot of thought, possibly of questionable legitimacy.
But since FY 2011 is half over, 2012 matters more.
Obama’s FY 2012 is a complete punt on all the real issues and involves no spending cuts, only a spending freeze on discretionary and an increase in all entitlements. So I think the R’s are doing an ok job with 2011, but 2012 is a bigger deal and that battle royale will be humming along soon enough. Oh yes, and there’s the debt ceiling….
Bosch
February 18th, 2011
3:28 pm
“They brought about the 40 hour work week. Do you really think we’d get away from that? Overtime, child safety laws, etc,etc,etc. Do you really see a need for unions now that the work has been done?”
Actually Dave, except for child labor, we have gotten away from that — I know very few people who work in the public and private world that work 40 hours a week — it’s more like 60-80. Just a personal observation.
In my opinion, it goes with the attitude that workers should be grateful for their jobs — which of course goes without saying, of course they should be grateful, but that should not be confused with their individual rights fought for by the unions.
The attitude of “just shut up and work and be damn glad you have a job” mentality of some is lost on me. Like I said, of course, people are grateful for their jobs, but it used to be the respect went both ways, now it only seems to go one way.
Again, just my two cents.
Mick
February 18th, 2011
3:28 pm
dave r
So you were a classroom teacher dave? You’ve taught for many years and know the lay of land regarding that profession? I was a block mason – for a day, does that qualify me to be called a block mason?
Mick
February 18th, 2011
3:30 pm
bosch
Your two cents at least were minted with some real copper…
Bosch
February 18th, 2011
3:32 pm
Mick,
From the unionized copper mines..
You were a block mason? Cool!
TaxPayer
February 18th, 2011
3:32 pm
Perhaps our distinguished congressmen cited the commerce clause due to suits filed against them while practicing in another state. Who knows how the wiring in a Republican’s brain functions. I suspect it would give pause to Watson trying to sort it out though.
Adam
February 18th, 2011
3:33 pm
jm: Crap I got confused on FY2011 and FY2012. I need to look up a graph for that too, but I agree he punted. His proposal is a first proposal though. It’s not supposed to be the final word. But the argument I see going on is basically this:
Obama: We;re not cutting entitlements, we’ll cut this stuff instead
House Republicans: Oh no, you’re going to cut entitlements, some of them will be cut to zero, and you’re NOT cutting anything else.
Looks to me like the Senate will have to be the final place that the voice of reason takes over and an actual compromise is reached. Which is highly ironic considering the last 2 years.
Dave R.
February 18th, 2011
3:34 pm
” Which of these is NOT an important profession?
a) Police
b) Fire
c) Teachers
d) EMTs/Emergency services
All are important, Adam, but only 2 put their lives on the line in the normal and expected execution of their duties. And those same two cannot be performed at expected levels past age 50.
What is you point (as if you had one)?
Bosch
February 18th, 2011
3:35 pm
Dave R.,
“but only 2 put their lives on the line in the normal and expected execution of their duties”
Obviously….you’ve never been around 4th graders with math books!
J/K
Mick
February 18th, 2011
3:37 pm
bosch
Growing up, I helped build three houses with my dad and since he had so many kids, we did it all from ditch digging, block, brick, framing, plumbing, a/c. The only thing he didn’t mess with was the electric because his best friend was an ace electrician. Great, great experience…
Dave R.
February 18th, 2011
3:38 pm
Mick, I have taught occasionally in classes, but was not my profession.
Again, what is your point? Make the case that they require soem sort of union protections or don’t; I don’t care. You’re beating a dead horse with me. There is NO safety or consistent stress issue in teaching that would call for a union to be formed.
Bosch
February 18th, 2011
3:40 pm
Mick!
Excellent! That’s one thing I wish I could do – build stuff — I can’t even build cool stuff with Legos — now give me a paint brush and that’s a different story.
Mick
February 18th, 2011
3:42 pm
dave r
How’s about planning periods, supplements for coaching, supplements for teaching inner city, involuntary transfers, voluntary transfers, conflict with administrators, certification, substitute teachers not being used properly. I could go on and on…get the point?
Adam
February 18th, 2011
3:43 pm
Dave R: Thank you. My only point was that all are important. My other point that I have made and hashed out already is that safety of a profession is not the only reason to form a union, and that right should not be denied on such a narrow assumption basis.
Mick
February 18th, 2011
3:45 pm
bosch
A painter!! I can’t even draw a good stick man….how I wish I had that talent. I play some bass and maybe someday will hook-up with so co for an epic get it all out jam…
Dave R.
February 18th, 2011
3:46 pm
“get the point?”
No, I don’t. Make the case for unions based on safety or stress in the normal performance of their duties, Mick, or don’t. I don’t care. All you gave me were a laundry list of duties.
Common Sense isn't very Common
February 18th, 2011
3:47 pm
Dissolve the Dept of Ed and see if GA can drop lower than last in the state rankings what with the current politicians in office.
Dave R.
February 18th, 2011
3:49 pm
” My other point that I have made and hashed out already is that safety of a profession is not the only reason to form a union, and that right should not be denied on such a narrow assumption basis.”
Which you failed to make, Adam. You want workers to have a say in the rules of the game, when they have no skin in the game. I get it. It doesn’t make it right.
Dr. Pangloss
February 18th, 2011
3:49 pm
Fun fact: the Constitution doesn’t say anything about a right to vote. Maybe we should go all states rightsy and go back to the days when you had to be white, male, over 21 and a substantial property owner to vote–as Tea Party Nation has already advocated.
Adam
February 18th, 2011
3:49 pm
Common: Dissolve the Dept of Ed and see if there even IS a ranking board anymore….
Mick
February 18th, 2011
3:50 pm
dave r
I’ll tell you what, since you are definately slow on the take concerning this issue, stalemate…have a good weekend however, and please do us all a favor, don’t ever run for office again…
Adam
February 18th, 2011
3:52 pm
Dave R: You want workers to have a say in the rules of the game, when they have no skin in the game
On what basis do you say that workers have no skin in the game? What are they then, just humans we’re using until we can replace them with machines?
Common Sense isn't very Common
February 18th, 2011
3:54 pm
Adam – that is true but many seem to advocate getting rid of it so that there won’t be ANY national standards
Adam
February 18th, 2011
3:56 pm
BTW, The First Amendment prohibits the making of any law that interferes with the right to assemble. What the Wisconsin Governor is proposing is actually unconstitutional.
Dusty
February 18th, 2011
3:57 pm
Well, now that I can get back to my computer, let me post just a few lines for those who wish to change history.
Bosch–some people did object to going into Iraq. They did not speak loud enough for congress to hear as it was almost 100% of congress that said go. Did you forget?
Normal–I don’t lie, thank you. Our leaders led us to war because they thought it would prevent perilous attacks on the USA. If you think war is so terrible and it is, why did you sign up three times to join the ARMED FORCES who fight wars? I assume you wanted to protect our country. That is also what President Bush and congress wanted. Do you berate youself along with Bush & Congress?
SoCo–military action in Iraq was started because of dire info on wmds in a country led by an ambitious dictator.. The presence of wmds was thought to be certain by CIA & others. (Afghanistan was attacked because Osama/terrorists was thought to be there.) We cannot now change what was thought to be true in Iraq then. The UN also agreed as did Gen. Colin Powell. That is history.
Larry..Yes, I know about the Iraqi who later confessed to giving false information. Too bad we did not know that until the war in Iraq is over….
Getalife, I will continue to present the facts of history to those who want to change them to suit their present beliefs. If the truth bothers you, go ahead and call it screaming. But take your meds and do not stroke out. .
Mick
February 18th, 2011
4:01 pm
Dusty@3:57
Naive (adj) – lacking developed powers of analysis, reasoning, or criticism: a naive argument
Pogo
February 18th, 2011
4:01 pm
Who wants to bet that not one of the protesters in the streets of Wisconsin voted for the Republican governor. Many are probably not even from Wisconsin seeings how Obama and the DNC have called in their union goons. That means someone else that isn’t being heard did elect him which was obviously the majority. These teachers making $100,000 per year are bitching about carrying a little more of the load for their benefits? Yea right, I have a lot of sympathy for them. They should try it out in the real world.
Bosch
February 18th, 2011
4:03 pm
Pogo,
“These teachers making $100,000 per year are bitching about carrying a little more of the load for their benefits?”
DUDE!! Put down the crack pipe!!
Joe the Plutocrat
February 18th, 2011
4:03 pm
anybody actually read the 10th Amendment? “The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.” Talk about a ‘rock, paper, scissors’ shell game. the Found Fathers saw fit to consider “powers NOT delegated…NOR prohibited by the States..” and were this not vague enough, the threw a bone to “the people’ as if we have a say in any of this mess…
Bosch
February 18th, 2011
4:03 pm
Oh and Pogo,
S’up? I hope you have a good weekend.
But….JUST SAY NO!!!
Mick
February 18th, 2011
4:05 pm
pogo
Is that a fact? $100,000 per year or do you mean a married couple where both are teachers making 50k each?
What say ye if all those people are just wisconsinites?
Left wing management
February 18th, 2011
4:06 pm
So how come Limbaugh no love him some public demos in Wisconsin?
I though the whole point of ransacking Iraq was to bring democracy to it? Remember before the invasion George Bush cynically said “See that’s why we’re going into Iraq. So they can do things like this”.
So was all that just a sham? Uh huh …
Southern Comfort (E.O.I.)
February 18th, 2011
4:07 pm
Dissolve the Dept of Ed and see if GA can drop lower than last in the state rankings what with the current politicians in office.
Sounds par for the course in this age of “I got mine, screw yours!”
Southern Comfort (E.O.I.)
February 18th, 2011
4:10 pm
Who wants to bet that not one of the protesters in the streets of Wisconsin voted for the Republican governor.
If any police or fire personnel are supporting the protesters, then you’re probably wrong. The only reason the police and fire were exempted from the bill was because they supported the governor in the past election.
Dusty
February 18th, 2011
4:10 pm
MIck,
If telling the truth is naive, go ahead. Call me just that. I think it iis more naive to try and change what happened in the past. That seems to be what you favor.
jm
February 18th, 2011
4:11 pm
Adam – “Obama: We;re not cutting entitlements, we’ll cut this stuff instead
House Republicans: Oh no, you’re going to cut entitlements, some of them will be cut to zero, and you’re NOT cutting anything else.”
Afraid this is wrong. Obama isn’t cutting anything. Republicans have not said they’re cutting any entitlements to 0, that would be political suicide. They are for cutting the rate of growth in entitlements and instituting some other changes (if they have their way) that would not affect any retiring now or in the near future…. furthermore, they’re cutting SS and Medicare benefits for the wealthy…. despite criticisms that Republicans are only out to help the rich.
Left wing management
February 18th, 2011
4:11 pm
Sorry, left out a line.
I though the whole point of ransacking Iraq was to bring democracy to it? Remember before the invasion George Bush cynically said of all the demonstrations in the streets of London: “See that’s why we’re going into Iraq. So the Iraqis can do things like this”.
So how come all the right wing brigades all bent out of shape?
saywhat?
February 18th, 2011
4:13 pm
The tenthers are just like the fourthers, and every other self-righteous hypocritical conservative whiner. The Constitution is sacrosanct in the defense of whatever point THEY would like to make, until it isn’t.
Common Sense isn't very Common
February 18th, 2011
4:16 pm
gotta love tort reform
Mick
February 18th, 2011
4:17 pm
dusty
Sorry, I am a bit wound up…..people around here assume way too much, sometimes myself included….I’m skeptical of all who hold power, from the boss on up…everybody needs a method to be kept in check, along with the law and that is checked by the courts. Anyway, looks like a great weekend ahead…enjoy
0311/0317 - 1811/1801
February 18th, 2011
4:22 pm
jt:
To be consistent I would have to agree with you that the manufacturing or use of illegal drugs “within a state” should be a state issue.
However, the entry of drugs from state to state or across our border should remain a federal issue. If the federal government would concentrate all of their efforts there they probably could make more of an impact anyway.
Dave R.
February 18th, 2011
4:23 pm
“Maybe we should go all states rightsy and go back to the days when you had to be white, male, over 21 and a substantial property owner to vote–as Tea Party Nation has already advocated.”
Please provide any proof whatsoever that any Tea Party member has called for the above requirements to vote.
The silence will be deafening . . .
MC
February 18th, 2011
4:24 pm
Then you need to try a lot harder Dave R.
Mick
February 18th, 2011
4:24 pm
0311/0317 – 1811/1801
I missed it – where did scout go?
Dave R.
February 18th, 2011
4:26 pm
“On what basis do you say that workers have no skin in the game? What are they then, just humans we’re using until we can replace them with machines?”
Frankly, yes. There is NO right to a job. Anywhere. I suggest you think real hard to determine exactly what a “right” is, Adam.
Adam
February 18th, 2011
4:26 pm
jm: Obama isn’t cutting anything.
Even with my cursory understanding of his proposal, and with no graph, I know this is not true. The news stories on it show there have been some cuts, just not to the so called entitlements.
Republicans have not said they’re cutting any entitlements to 0, that would be political suicide. They are for cutting the rate of growth in entitlements and instituting some other changes (if they have their way) that would not affect any retiring now or in the near future…. furthermore, they’re cutting SS and Medicare benefits for the wealthy
Now, those are actually reasonable ideas. I would like to see the proposal they have put forth that details this.
Pogo
February 18th, 2011
4:28 pm
Adam, if teachers were what they were supposed to be and they considered their profession more of a “calling” rather than the easy money they can make from it, I would include them but judging by the intellectual capital that they are supposed to be providing (in the form of “educated” students”) for this country, I would have to say, we could do without many of them we have. If there was more scrutiny on teachers maybe that would make those that do make the grade appreciate their jobs a little more. But right now you can buy an education degree and become a teacher as long as you can get the money (either from your own resources or from the government).
Our students are more ill prepared (and that is saying it nicely) than ever to compete in the world economical environment and the nations test scores prove it. But more importantly, when the “product” that they turn out gets into the real world workplace, they just cannot handle it because they were shafted by schools and teachers who really didn’t give a damn whether the students were prepared or not, as long as they received their money. Education in this country has become public funded industrial greed.
So Fire Fighers? Yes. Police, yes. EMT, yes. Teachers, they need a damned good scrubbing. Empathy and the desire to better people are two of the most important qualities a teacher should have. Greed should not even be included. A decent living for being good at their craft? Yes. But teachers must be held to the same standards as the rest of us in private sector are. If you do not perform, you must go. Tenure should not exist in publically funded institutions because it creates laziness and it creates greed.