In Congress, anti-Muslim bigotry gaining a strong foothold
According to U.S. Rep. Peter King, R-NY, more than 80 percent of the mosques in this country are headed by imams who espouse radical Islamic jihad.
Eighty percent. King has offered that estimate in the past, and did so again this week in a radio interview:
King did not claim to have a list of those subversive enemies of American freedom in his suit pocket, as Sen. Joe McCarthy did 60 years ago. But like McCarthy, King does have the chairmanship of a prominent congressional committee, in his case the House Homeland Security Committee. And next month, King’s committee is scheduled to hold public hearings into the alleged disloyalty of the Muslim-American community.
That ought to go so very well, don’t you think?
And then we’ve got U.S. Rep. Allen West, a newly elected Republican from Florida. In a recent interview with a cable TV program called “The Shalom Show,” West was asked a rather odd question about U.S. Rep. Keith Ellison, a Minnesota Democrat and a Muslim, and he responded with an equally odd answer (The interchange begins at 1:47 in the video below):
Interviewer Richard Peritz: “Since you’re with a new crowd, people you haven’t really met before and will be very closely associated with in the future, including Keith Ellison, who supports Islam. How will you manage that, if I may ask? Because it’s not really easy to be that … polite, often, with individuals one totally disagrees with, which I believe may be the case.”
Rep. West: “I think it’s most important that I stand upon the principles that people elected me to go to Washington DC and represent them on Capitol Hill. So that when you run into someone that is counter or someone that really does represent the antithesis of the principles upon which this country was established, you got to be able to defeat them intellectually and in debate and discourse.”
It really is astounding. Is it possible to be polite to a Muslim-American? Does Ellison, by the mere fact of being a Muslim, “represent the antithesis of the principles upon which this country was established?”
Or is that all just vile, ugly bigotry spouted by men wearing nice suits?
– Jay Bookman
Tell us what you think about the site
Customer Care »
Vacation stops, manage subscriptions and more
AJC Services
Sections
Other Editions
Visitor Agreement | Privacy Statement
© 2013 The Atlanta Journal-Constitution
588 comments Add your comment
josef nix
January 25th, 2011
5:59 pm
SoCo
The Baptists got the day off…
They BOTH suck
January 25th, 2011
5:59 pm
JohnnyReb
Whats up? We bantered back and forth a week or so back.
Hope all is well with you and your family……..
Southern Comfort (B.P.O.I.B.W.)
January 25th, 2011
6:00 pm
Dusty
Rest assured, if that 80% estimate was anywhere near accurate, there would be weekly roundups of extremists by the thousands. I wouldn’t put that number anywhere near that high, and that’s based on a professional guess.
@@
January 25th, 2011
6:00 pm
Cowboy:
Saudi Arabia is not ruled by an Ayatollah. It’s ruled by a king.
jm
January 25th, 2011
6:02 pm
out later folks
barking frog
January 25th, 2011
6:02 pm
josef, Bruin to 6pm appointment? job interview? too much snow
on the roof? out to pasture like wooten? nahhh
Normal
January 25th, 2011
6:03 pm
Dusty
January 25th, 2011
3:58 pm
Dusty,
I’m just using my first amendment rights and I’ll knock what I choose.
And, if you would read without preconceived notions about me, you would realize that all I’m trying to do is to get you Christians to act a little more like your Jesus.
Gandhi nailed it when he said,”I like your Christ, I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ.”
But the best thing about Jay’s blog is if you don’t like what I say…scroll on friend.
They BOTH suck
January 25th, 2011
6:06 pm
@@
Yes S.A is ruled by a King but they allow the Mullahs, Clerics, Imams or whatever the correct term is to dictate much of the day to day live of the population as long as it doesn’t interfere too much with their oil industry…..
Many of the Kings family and associates adhere to Islamic Law while is S.A. to show a united front with the religious leaders, but own homes elsewhere in the world so they can get their secular groove on………
For interesting relationship the Kings family and associates have with the religious leaders who have the ‘ears’ of the lower classes……
AmVet
January 25th, 2011
6:07 pm
jm, nice sentiment. And even better after Dawg’s addendum!
Dusty, interesting because the one and only time we had this discussion I told you I would go to church with you if you would go to Humanist meeting with me. And YOU were the one who said now way, Jose. (Closed minds, etc…)
So save your faux sorrow and good wishes for me, and good luck in finding whatever redemption you can.
josef, I’ve never professed to have any answers to any of these questions. This is what separates me from the absolutists and the dogmatists. I find freedom in the questions themselves.
Hang tough, brother Paul. Unconditional love from an animal is a wonderful thing. And now the memories of it will have to sustain you…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QCI5wZRn9iE
josef nix
January 25th, 2011
6:08 pm
frog
I think it’s code word for the Missus Bruin calls…I hope so, anyway!
Dusty
January 25th, 2011
6:09 pm
Right, Normal, and I am using my first amendment rights too. Scroll on yourself. I’ll never know.
barking frog
January 25th, 2011
6:09 pm
josef, yep, that would do it..
josef nix
January 25th, 2011
6:10 pm
AmVet
“I find freedom in the questions themselves…”
Likewise, my ole Curmudgeon friend. And I really take solace in there being no answers…but that just makes it all the more intriguing to me…
Dusty
January 25th, 2011
6:12 pm
AmVet , I don’t remember your invitation. Dang!!! What IS a humanist meeting anyway? Kinda like riding the MARTA train?
Done that. Been there…
bye..
Southern Comfort (B.P.O.I.B.W.)
January 25th, 2011
6:13 pm
josef
Then, the Muslims should have gotten the day off too. Islam is not the problem, and neither are Muslims. What we’re up against is a group of extremists and an idea. Whenever people stop long enough to realize that we’re fighting an idea and not a person, then we will begin to solve our problems.
JohnnyReb
January 25th, 2011
6:14 pm
They BOTH suck – greetings to you. All is well, and with you the same I hope. We are self employed around here. I try to run a food brokerage and my wife has a retail shop. It continues to be a busy time of year with taxes, inventory, etc. So, my goof-off time is limited. I just pop in and out with an occasional kind comment, but most often a dig at the honorable opposition.
AmVet
January 25th, 2011
6:14 pm
josef, and to that point,
William Shatner and Joe Jackson said/sang it best…
You’ll never live like common people
You’ll never do whatever common people do.
You’ll never fail like common people.
You’ll never watch your life slide out of view,
and dance and drink and screw
because there’s nothing else to do.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ainyK6fXku0
They BOTH suck
January 25th, 2011
6:18 pm
@Johnny
Doing well, thanks, …… I do contract and consulting work in Supply Chain and Inventory Mgmt…………. Get to work from home a good amount so it works out
I’m sure you do well already, but good luck and continued success to both your wife and yourself
josef nix
January 25th, 2011
6:18 pm
SoCo
I would agree entirely. The hijacking of a faith/doctrine to serve extremist ideology is, from what I have seen, a universal tendency. Making it so personal accomplishes nothing more than to push the individual who feels attacked toward the extreme in reaction.
stands for decibels
January 25th, 2011
6:19 pm
William Shatner and Joe Jackson said/sang it best…
I suppose they might’ve, although Pulp actually composed it.
(by the way, for the longest time I thought the line was “you’ll never watch your life slide out of you.” Still think that’s better.)
Bruno
January 25th, 2011
6:20 pm
You haven’t found it and your usual unhappiness reveals that….. But I do hope you will find whatever it is your heart is missing.
If it makes you feel any better, Am, Dusty tried to run the same rap on me a while back.
And I really take solace in there being no answers…but that just makes it all the more intriguing to me…
josef–Spoken like a true Scientist. In the words of Richrd Feynman, who was the greatest Phycisist of the second half of the 20th century:
“You see, one thing is, I can live with doubt and uncertainty and not knowing. I think it’s much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong. I have approximate answers and possible beliefs and different degrees of uncertainty about different things, but I am not absolutely sure of anything and there are many things I don’t know anything about, such as whether it means anything to ask why we’re here . . . I don’t have to know an answer. I don’t feel frightened not knowing things, by being lost in a mysterious universe without any purpose, which is the way it really is as far as I can tell. It doesn’t frighten me.”
Hillbilly Deluxe
January 25th, 2011
6:20 pm
It’s ironic that columns against hate seem to bring out the most of it, and from all directions. Think I’ll sit this one out.
barking frog
January 25th, 2011
6:21 pm
SoCo 6:13 Unfortunately they believe that we are the problem
that needs solving by any means available. I disagree with their
methods but I can understand their reasoning.
Southern Comfort (B.P.O.I.B.W.)
January 25th, 2011
6:21 pm
The hijacking of a faith/doctrine to serve extremist ideology is, from what I have seen, a universal tendency.
We tend to see that on display on this here blog from time to time. What you said is exactly what is happening. It’s now becoming a chess match of actions and reactions. If we don’t gain control over our actions, we could find ourselves in checkmate.
Bruno
January 25th, 2011
6:22 pm
Oops– (-1) points for poor spelling ^^^^
That would be Richard Feynman, the greatest Physicist of the second half of the 20th century.
AmVet
January 25th, 2011
6:22 pm
Kinda like riding the MARTA train?
Touché and fabulously funny.
Humanism encompasses a variety of nontheistic views (atheism, agnosticism, rationalism, naturalism, secularism, and so forth)
http://www.americanhumanist.org
Southern Comfort (B.P.O.I.B.W.)
January 25th, 2011
6:23 pm
frog
That’s not entirely right. I’ve had to re-examine my understanding of Islam in recent months. They believe we are the problem based on Islamic principles that, when applied in specific cases and methods, actually furthers the claims of the extremists and give them credibility in the words of Islam.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award".....
January 25th, 2011
6:24 pm
Why not ask Putin what he truly thinks about muslims at this time?
Bruno
January 25th, 2011
6:25 pm
SC–If you get a moment, take a listen to this number and give me your opinion:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JNchhLT2abo
barking frog
January 25th, 2011
6:28 pm
SoCo 6:23 I was speaking of the extremists.
josef nix
January 25th, 2011
6:31 pm
AmVet
“…my baby takes the MARTA train, he works from 9 til 5 and then he takes another home again..”
BRUNO
Or a true Maimonidean!
SoCo
Checkmate…yes, and we’re getting ever closer with each partisan, dogmatic swipe…
Southern Comfort (B.P.O.I.B.W.)
January 25th, 2011
6:31 pm
frog
Oh, I misinterpreted. My fault….
@@
January 25th, 2011
6:34 pm
josef:
Christianity’s promise is that you’ll never have all the answers until…..
ODDOWL
January 25th, 2011
6:35 pm
Peter King is a racist redneck. His racist antics have a long history. Now we can add anti-semitism (anti Islam) to his reportoire. Peter King and his cohorts are a dying breed. His attempts to disunite America will backfire in his face.
Lil' Barry Bailout
January 25th, 2011
6:35 pm
Jay, if you’re going to make such a claim, don’t you think you should have some sort of factual information to support it? What you’ve brought is weak.
AmVet
January 25th, 2011
6:35 pm
Funny on the “mishear”, stands. I love it when that happens. Out of view, out of you? Nice…
Hillbilly, something about discussing religion that seems to bring out the most powerful reactions. That’s how big a deal it (still) is to us, I guess.
Bruno!
I read some more in the Zen Mind/Beginner’s Mind this weekend. The passage I was reading was, at that exact time (and state of mind), perfect for me to grok it! I was fairly surprised. And joyous.
And I have only scratched the surface.
This seems apropos…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h9eQ8_T1ytU
Southern Comfort (B.P.O.I.B.W.)
January 25th, 2011
6:36 pm
josef & frog
There is a term, fitna, that if you haven’t heard, you may want to research just a little. By claiming fitna, or oppression, the extremists can declare jihad as they are being oppressed. I can’t remember the passages of the Koran where it comes from, but it’s an interesting logic to follow.
In the land of religious freedom, they are being oppressed in their view. With the hubbub about the NY Center, and now Rep. King, we’re adding fuel to that fire. Notice the increase in claims of Islamophobia and such. That’s why I say we all need to take a collective deep breath and stop the fear mongering. We are not fighting people anymore. It is an idea now. You can’t fight an idea with physical force.
Bruno
January 25th, 2011
6:37 pm
Or a true Maimonidean!
For many folks, uncertainty is extremely uncomfortable, so they invent explanations to questions which are essentially unanswerable. I put this into a scientific rather than a philosophical context due to my training, though it ultimately is an epistemological consideration.
@@
January 25th, 2011
6:37 pm
Medvedev has vowed to hunt down the terrorists tied to the airport attack.
Why am I thinking he’s not kidding? Turn it over to Putin, bystanders be damned.
Southern Comfort (B.P.O.I.B.W.)
January 25th, 2011
6:38 pm
Bruno
Interesting track. I’m not too gung ho on the finger snaps, but the lyrics were oddly tame for this generation. Sounds like that guy has listened to some of the older singers who were more suggestive in their lyrics as opposed to just getting downright explicit. I’d give it an 8 on a 10pt scale.
Bruno
January 25th, 2011
6:40 pm
“And I have only scratched the surface.”
Buddy, I’ve been contemplating Suzuki for more than 30 years and still feel like I’m only scratching the surface. “Zen Mind, Beginners Mind” has an I Ching quality to it insofar as you can open it to any random page, and it will offer some nugget which informs your current quandary. I guess the same could be said for any great book, the Bible included.
Bruno
January 25th, 2011
6:41 pm
I’d give it an 8 on a 10pt scale.
Cool. This guy is one of my clients and is trying to make in the music business. I like the sound of his recording, has somewhat of a Nelly feeling to it. I’ll tell him you like it.
Lil' Barry Bailout
January 25th, 2011
6:42 pm
Following the SOTU, the messianic Odumbo will exit the chamber by flapping his ears until airborne, circle above the assembly, and fly out a little-known hatchway through the roof. Several of his Democrat acolytes will faint, others will prostrate themselves and praise his name.
pat
January 25th, 2011
6:44 pm
Jew Cowbody, no sky fairy does not exists. I have provided an argument though it may requiare a bit of work on your part. Therefore the burden of proof lies with you. Usually, the burden of proof does lie with atheists, as they assert the absurd notion of ’something from nothing’.
josef nix
January 25th, 2011
6:45 pm
Bruno
Don’t take this the wrong way, please, but I have a problem with your choice of “invent explanations.” I know it’s seems petty, and probably is, but I like the term develop or arrive at since they are less, to me, scientific…the reason I say that is that the Maimonidean clearly distinguishes between the known, the scientific for which we “invent” explanations, and the spiritual, the unknown for which our explanations are freed of the scientific, allowing us to develop or arrive at without being bound by the restraints imposed by scientific inquiry…
Southern Comfort (B.P.O.I.B.W.)
January 25th, 2011
6:46 pm
Bruno
No prob. I kinda think the finger snap thing has been overdone, but that’s just me. He’s got a good voice though. He doesn’t sound timid or weak at any point through that entire track.
Bruno
January 25th, 2011
6:48 pm
Usually, the burden of proof does lie with atheists, as they assert the absurd notion of ’something from nothing’.
Actually, pat, the concept of ex nihilo (something from nothing) is part and parcel of all cosmological explanations because our minds can’t conceptualize anything differently. Genesis 1 and 2 rely heavily upon it as well, though “God” is presumed to predate time itself.
josef nix
January 25th, 2011
6:48 pm
SoCo
And fitna in a society such as ours where we all want to argue who is more oppressed, it finds fertile ground and we need to be aware of that…
pat
January 25th, 2011
6:49 pm
Jay: the assertion wasn’t that 80% of mosques were radical, the assertion was 80% of mosques had radical imams. You say it’s not true, you need to prove that. The burden of proff is on you. You started it, therefore it’s your job to prove it.
Matti
January 25th, 2011
6:52 pm
HEY Y’ALL!
What are our shot words for this evening’s address? (Did I miss this discussion? Sorry, I’ve been working.)
They BOTH suck
January 25th, 2011
6:53 pm
@Pat
You need to proof your God exists not that he or she doesn’t.
Burden of proof is on you, not the non-believer
@@
January 25th, 2011
6:53 pm
My fondest hope is that Bruno’s reincarnation will result in womanhood and that she will then meet a man like Bruno.
Kharma’s a b*tch, baby.
Southern Comfort (B.P.O.I.B.W.)
January 25th, 2011
6:54 pm
josef
I’m willing to bet that upwards of 90% of our society (outside the Muslim population) does not have a clue to that word’s existence let alone it’s meaning.
pat
I can attest with pretty good confidence that if 80% of the mosques here were radical, we’d see raids and busts on a weekly basis. I wouldn’t put that number nearly that high at all.
josef nix
January 25th, 2011
6:55 pm
Somewhat still on the thread…the reason my Grandfather was so Maimondean in outlook and his first lesson in introducing me to that thought, was that he was the greatest spokesperson from that moment in time in Spain when Muslim, Christian and Jewish thinkers of all disciplines came together with the single goal of finding their commonalities…sadly, Christians and Muslims rejected him and he wasn’t always in favor with the Jewish inquistors…
AmVet
January 25th, 2011
6:56 pm
SoCo, that review reminded me of this:
American Bandstand’s Dick Clark would often interview the teenagers about their opinions of the songs being played, most memorably through the “Rate-a-Record” segment. During the segment, two audience members each ranked two records on a scale of 35 to 98, then the two opinions were averaged by Clark, who then asked the audience members to justify their scores. The segment gave rise, perhaps apocryphally, to the phrase “It’s got a good beat and you can dance to it”. In one humorous segment broadcast for years on retrospective shows, comedians Cheech and Chong appeared as the record raters.
You’re comin’ up like a flower
You’re comin’ up through the cracks
That live ’round here
Everybody knows we have no fear
This is my generation .
‘Cause we just want to dance all night
Live inside the spark of life
This might be the only time around
We wanna know the face of freedom
We wanna make a place where we can learn to love
Build a world that we can be proud of
This is my generay-ay ay ay tion
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NyQnrHqByg
Matti
January 25th, 2011
6:58 pm
Aww, man. Are we still on religion? C’mon people. We’re humans. We’re temporary moving specs on the planet. Our little bitty minds are simply not great enough to comprehend the true nature of the Creator of the entire infinite universe. (Helllooooo?) Whoever or Whatever He is, He’s bigger than anything we can conceive in our tiny little fleshy earth brains. Men wrote those books to hornswaggle us out of our earnings and scare us into ceding to authority and conforming to the norms of whatever the current authority happens to be. Get over it. We’re specs.
Southern Comfort (B.P.O.I.B.W.)
January 25th, 2011
6:59 pm
gotta run, but just to let you know what our glorious GOP majority accomplished in the House today..
http://projects.washingtonpost.com/congress/112/house/1/votes/18/
House Resolution 43:
Providing for Consideration of the Resolution (H.Res. 38) to Reduce Spending Through a Transition to Non-Security Spending at Fiscal Year 2008 Levels
passed today.
Committees:
House Rules: Full Committee. On H.R. 359 – To reduce Federal spending and the deficit by terminating taxpayer financing of presidential election campaigns and party conventions. H-313 Capitol.
I guess the committee is wanting to do away with public money altogether and leave election financing to deep pocketed individuals and entities. I can see it now: The Home Depot GOP Convention, or the Del Monte Democratic Convention.
Matti
January 25th, 2011
6:59 pm
Okay, if we do a shot every time we hear “nu-ku-lar” we probably won’t wet our whistles. If we do one every time he says “together,” we’ll get alcohol poisoning.
Any ideas?
josef nix
January 25th, 2011
6:59 pm
@@
I like Bruno, myself, but I must confess I share your wish for his reincarnation!
SoCo
It’s like the word for the concept of jihad…we have decided to see it only in it’s bellicose and completely miss the spiritual aspect of “struggle…”
BOTH
And why is that burden of proof on the non believer? Have you read “Guide for the Perplexed?”
jack bull
January 25th, 2011
7:00 pm
this is a big world isn’t it? just don’t understand why this group can’t live here, and that group live over there, and so on and so on…same with democrats and republicans….if everyone is so opposite in their views, religion, etc… lets just all agree to live with those who we get along with…or would that be too boring?
Lil' Barry Bailout
January 25th, 2011
7:00 pm
Shot words for those intrigued by alcohol poisoning: “I”, “me”, and “my”.
Southern Comfort (B.P.O.I.B.W.)
January 25th, 2011
7:00 pm
Catch y’all later. Got a little one to entertain.
@@
January 25th, 2011
7:00 pm
specs….God with freckles.
I’m out.
Southern Comfort (B.P.O.I.B.W.)
January 25th, 2011
7:01 pm
josef
I asked earlier if anyone knew the definition of and how many different jihads there were. Nobody answered. Kinda par for the course here. Catch ya later, bro.
Lil' Barry Bailout
January 25th, 2011
7:02 pm
How about “corpseman”?
TaxPayer
January 25th, 2011
7:03 pm
Damn! That just cracked me up. That’s just too much.
Matti
January 25th, 2011
7:03 pm
AtAt,
It’s a frightening realization [to think like you sometimes], but I also have wished this very fate on a number of men. So much so, that I’m convinced that I was much like Bruno in a previous life, and am now being punished. (Yes, they only THINK life with a big rack is gravy. Heh…) If you’re really really bad in this life, you go to Heck. In other words, you’re born a few minutes later in Haiti. Hey, my guess is just as good as anybody else’s!
Bruno
January 25th, 2011
7:03 pm
Don’t take this the wrong way, please, but I have a problem with your choice of “invent explanations.”
My choice of wording reflects the fact that ALL human explanations are just that: human in origin. It kind of ties in with Jay’s New Year’s column which highlighted the difference between man-made measurements such as the inch or the pound vs. natural or “Godly” measurements involving repeating cycles of time. Jay’s column sturck a deep chord with me because that is ultimately why I left the world of Science and got involved with health care instead. healing is one of those “Godly” things which exists independently of our efforts to quantify it.
@@
January 25th, 2011
7:04 pm
josef:
You can have him before his reincarnation.
(ISH)
Keep up the good fight!
January 25th, 2011
7:06 pm
Taxpayer…Jon is almost always on point for Fox faubles.
Trent Reznor
January 25th, 2011
7:08 pm
Matti @ 7:03–C’mon now, give my buddy Bruno a break already!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UEW8riKU_tE
@@
January 25th, 2011
7:08 pm
Matti:
I wouldn’t buy his crap as a man, and I SURE don’t it as a woman. I hold myself in higher regard. Not sure what you’re going through.
josef nix
January 25th, 2011
7:10 pm
matti
You may be a spec…I’m not…I’m one of G-d’s noblest creatures who, given dominion over the earth, went in a matter of a few thousand years from the trees to the stars…
“The pathology and creativity of the human mind, after all, are two sides of the same medal coined in the evolutionary mint. The first is responsible for the splendor of our cathedrals, the second for the gargoyles that decorate them to remind us that the world is full of monsters, devils, and succubi. They reflect the streak of insanity which runs through the history of our species, and which indicates that somewhere along the line in its ascent to prominence something has gone wrong.”
–Arthur Koestler
Matti
January 25th, 2011
7:15 pm
jo nix,
I was holding my friend when her heart stopped beating and the last breath left her disease- and chemo-battered body. Deep in a cold dark night, there was only silence, but I felt her presence there in the room with us, toward the ceiling. I felt her congnizance that had been shut off from us a few minutes before. I felt her love. Since you know so much, tell me, WHERE did she go?
josef nix
January 25th, 2011
7:15 pm
@@
I’ll take him…he’s not beyond redemption…
BRUNO
I will agree that they are all human, but I would argue that the scientific and the spiritual exist in separate realms and the terminologies were use should reflect that separation…
Matti
January 25th, 2011
7:19 pm
We’ll never know. At least, we’ll never know until we, too, stop breathing air into these bodies.
josef nix
January 25th, 2011
7:20 pm
matti
Okay, I’ll go there. When I had the big one, I died. I was brought back. So, I’ve been there. I could define it in physiolgical or spiritual terms, but unless you’ve had the experience it would be something you would have to “choose” between the two. Let’s just say they were both in harmony and, yes, it even had its highly human and humorous twist!
Bruno
January 25th, 2011
7:21 pm
For what it’s worth, given the choice of spending a night with josef or a night with @@, I’m going with josef even though I’m not gay. Of course, throw Matti into the mix and I’m:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nGqPzrNypzw
Matti
January 25th, 2011
7:23 pm
Bru Baby,
You’ve got good game tonight. LOVING both of these!
jo nix,
So…. you’re saying I’m not just believing what I want to believe, and that she really WAS there in the room with us, outside her spent shell?
josef nix
January 25th, 2011
7:25 pm
Bruno
I’m not at all sure Matti would go with that! We’d be fighting over the hair shirt!
barking frog
January 25th, 2011
7:27 pm
Creation or devolution has us move from perfection to our
present state. Evolution has us move from nothing to our
present state. Either way we are here as we are.
Jack
January 25th, 2011
7:28 pm
It’s been said before, but vile ugly men bombed our buildings and killed our citizens. Coddling makes us look even weaker.
AmVet
January 25th, 2011
7:28 pm
Have you read “Guide for the Perplexed?”
No, but I have read The Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy. (”So long, and thanks for all the fish.”)
The Home Depot GOP Convention, or the Del Monte Democratic Convention.
Welcome to the Corporatocracy!
Wow, Jimi Hendrix. Very colorful and trippy, B.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P_P45feBkrg
josef nix
January 25th, 2011
7:32 pm
matti
I can’t speak to her experience, only mine. And, yes, that is much the case. Okay, the story and the human element…when I went into the ER at Unmentionable’s hospital, I got the red carpet treatment, or so I thought, due to who brought me in. I had no idea what was going on. There were all kinds of people doing all kinds of things. I recall quite well the feeling of absolute harmony with all that was, is (and no, not will be, but it was definitely a place I had no angst about going to). Call it the out of body experience, but the paddles were being applied and the doctor was “don’t go, dammit, come back…” I can recall “thinking” as I was watching from wherever it was I was, “well, honey, I don’t want to be any trouble. If it’ll make you happy…” And I did “come back.” Only later did I find out what the paddles meant and why she was “in such a state.”
Like I said, this is just my experience. In talking to others who have gone through it, a similar “experience” is at work.
josef nix
January 25th, 2011
7:33 pm
AmVet
Love Hitchhiker’s Guide!
barking frog
January 25th, 2011
7:36 pm
The desire to survive forever is a logical extension of
self preservation the only instinct we have. Survival of
the fittest is a statement of the obvious. Fear is the
only emotion. All the other labels are just degrees of it.
A tidy package.
josef nix
January 25th, 2011
7:38 pm
frog
You forget the instinct to procreate!
Keep up the good fight!
January 25th, 2011
7:39 pm
I agree Jack. Let’s stop coddling those like the killer of Dr. Tiller and his Christain supporters. Those are vile ugly people.
barking frog
January 25th, 2011
7:42 pm
josef 7:38 the instinct of self preservation, a little of us
survives.
Bruno
January 25th, 2011
7:42 pm
I will agree that they are all human, but I would argue that the scientific and the spiritual exist in separate realms and the terminologies were use should reflect that separation…
Even though they use different standards of “proof”, I don’t separate the spiritual and the scientific, since they are both ways that our brains try to make sense of the world. The reality is that we only perceive an extremely small slice of the electromagnetic spectrum along with a small slice of the sound spectrum and a small piece of the chemical soup which surrounds us, yet our brains are able to assemble a coherent picture which is accurate enough to allow us to put a man on the moon. Yet through all of this, our understanding is strictly “human” since our human brains are the organ which is making sense of it all, a fact that seems to be lost on many a pontificator.
josef nix
January 25th, 2011
7:44 pm
matti
Question and please don’t feel obliged to answer, but were you born after August 3, 1964?
Scout
January 25th, 2011
7:44 pm
I’m back …………. Oh, I hear the liberal moans ………. their not into free speech much.
In any case, I haven’t the time to catch up on all the posts but as far as I can tell no one answered my very easy question:
Multiple Choice Quiz:
Which of the following “religious” entities in the United States requires untold millions in taxpayer money and immense NSA, Military Intelligence, CIA, FBI (to name a few) assets to conduct investigations and physical surveillances of places of worship, community service establishments, places of education, etc. via undercover FBI agents, paid informants and sophisticated electronic means:
a) Roman Catholic Church
b) Methodist Church
c) Church of Latter Day Saints (Mormons)
d) Church of God
e) Southern Baptist Church
f) Judaism (all forms)
g) Lutheran Church
h) Presbyterian Church
i) Episcopal Church
j) Mennonnite Church
k) Church of the Brethren
l) Nazarene Church
m) 7th Day Adventist Church
n) Quakers
o) Church of Christ
p) Islam
q) All of the above
Scout
January 25th, 2011
7:48 pm
By the way, there is no way we conservatives are going to change you liberal’s views on this subject.
There is only one thing that will eventually do it and that is “Islamists”.
When that time comes, we will still welcome you with open arms because we will need everyone we can get !
josef nix
January 25th, 2011
7:48 pm
Bruno
“I don’t separate the spiritual and the scientific…”
And I would argue that this failure to do so lies at the heart of your angst and that’s not meant to be snippy. You want rationality. It ain’t there, IMHO…
Bruno
January 25th, 2011
7:50 pm
WHERE did she go?
Matti–The tricky part about talking about “spirit” is that, by definition, a spirit is non-corporal, i.e. it has no “substance”, no “mass”. Yet spirits exist and they can influence us. I won’t bore you with what I think is a valid Scientific explanation for this, but suffice it to say that the idea of “spirit” is not incompatible with a strictly scientific view of the world.
Matti
January 25th, 2011
7:50 pm
jo nix,
Thanks for sharing that with me. I’m glad you came back! It’s nice to know that I might not be crazy. I looked up and for a moment, I just knew we were looking right at each other, and she was glad I’d come. I felt her a couple times after that, but not for awhile now.
Bruno makes good sense about the science thing. I fail to understand the war that religion wages on science. Did God create everything or didn’t He? If so, then He created science and understanding it is not a negation of God.
AmVet
January 25th, 2011
7:52 pm
Yeah jo, the names, the devices (improbability drive?), the plot, everything about it is special. A must read for sci fi and other literary connoisseurs.
I remember devouring books from Asimov, Heinlein, and of course a little later, Tolkien.
And if you ever get the chance, read Wells The Outline of History. It is the recorded history of man from 10,000 years ago to 1919 (mine is copyrighted 1927.) Several revised editions were made up until 1971.
I consider it one of my greatest treasures…
Bruno
January 25th, 2011
7:52 pm
You want rationality. It ain’t there, IMHO…
josef–You know me too well!! Yet, at the same time, I feel that it’s possible to characterize irrationality in rational terms, if that makes any sense.
barking frog
January 25th, 2011
7:52 pm
Scout
January 25th, 2011
7:48 pm
——————————————————-
What do you think the Islamic religion really wants?
Matti
January 25th, 2011
7:54 pm
Scout,
Despite my loathing for your labels and venom, I would like to try to put your mind at ease. I’ve got a steady hand, I’m not afraid, and I aint never wearin no burkah, so when it’s time to mount the defense of this here land of SEC football and Wensdee nite nanner puddin’ at the church, I’m all in. Feel better?