Pentagon officially endorses an end to DADT, anti-gay bias
The results of the Pentagon’s ten-month assessment of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell have now been released. Here’s the money quote:
“Based on all we saw and heard, our assessment is that, when coupled with the prompt implementation of the recommendations we offer below, the risk of repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell to overall military effectiveness is low. We conclude that, while a repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell will likely, in the short term, bring about some limited and isolated disruption to unit cohesion and retention, we do not believe this disruption will be widespread or long-lasting, and can be adequately addressed by the recommendations we offer below. Longer term, with a continued and sustained commitment to core values of leadership, professionalism, and respect for all, we are convinced that the U.S. military can adjust and accommodate this change, just as it has others in history.”
In remarks today, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates endorsed the report’s findings and strongly urged “the Senate to pass this legislation and send it to the president for signature before the end of this year.”
“Given the present circumstances, those that choose not to act legislatively are rolling the dice that this policy will not be abruptly overturned by the courts,” Gates said, warning that a court-imposed change would be “by far the most disruptive and damaging scenario I can imagine, and the one most hazardous to military morale, readiness and battlefield performance.”
The country is ready. The military is ready. The time for waiting has passed; the time for acting has finally come.
“For years now I have heard the word ‘Wait!’” an impatient Martin Luther King Jr. wrote from the Birmingham jail. “It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This ‘Wait’ has almost always meant ‘Never.’ We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that ‘justice too long delayed is justice denied’.”
No more waiting. No more excuses.
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545 comments Add your comment
Southern Comfort
November 30th, 2010
3:27 pm
Uh Oh!!!! Here comes the “Nazi Gay Flag”!!!
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
3:28 pm
Now let us see if the Republicans play to their base, or to the majority of the country and service members who thinks DADT should be overturned.
Doggone/GA
November 30th, 2010
3:28 pm
“Uh Oh!!!! Here comes the “Nazi Gay Flag”!!!”
I know, we should have a design contest!
Normal
November 30th, 2010
3:30 pm
…Oh I feel pretty, oh so pretty….
Actually I am glad to see this. Let’s make it official asap.
Southern Comfort
November 30th, 2010
3:30 pm
jcb
You already know the base rules the right. Shame on you for even wondering about that.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
3:30 pm
From the thread below:
“They will start segregating themselves as being “Gay” Marines and wearing Rainbow attire, etc. because they are narcissistic.”
Jesus H. Christ on a Popsicle stick…are people really this moronic?
Normal
November 30th, 2010
3:33 pm
JewCowboy,
If he doesn’t think, act, or look like you, be afraid, be very afraid….
Paul
November 30th, 2010
3:33 pm
It’ll be interesting to hear how the armchair warriors in the Senate spin it to oppose the survey results, the SecDef’s recommendation, the Chaiman, JCS recommendation…
I guess they, and all the troops who will live with this every day, just don’t understand the big picture…
Sigh….
everyday American
November 30th, 2010
3:34 pm
lets see if the Democrats play to their base or to the majority of the country with Obamacare…..oh, we already know that answer…
barking frog
November 30th, 2010
3:34 pm
a non issue in the military that has been politicized far too long.
looks like will play the congress game a while longer. probably
the courts will act first and send this crap to the unconstitutional
garbage bin where it belongs.
Paul
November 30th, 2010
3:35 pm
jewcowboy
“are people really this moronic?”
You’ve been here a while. You really have to ask?
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
3:35 pm
Doggone/GA,
“I know, we should have a design contest!”
Sweet! I’ll get out my glitter.
Keep up the good fight!
November 30th, 2010
3:35 pm
JCB…..that is a definite yes…but I dont think you were really looking for an answer.
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
November 30th, 2010
3:36 pm
Well, the nation might could be ready and maybe the military is, but us rednecks ain’t. It’s a Sin. It says so right there in the Bible. Someplace. Why can’t these gays just stay quiet about their Sin and go ahead and fight and die for us? Like DADT wants them to do. I expect the Rev. Postlewaite will have a few words about this down at the Church of Holiness at Prayer Meeting tomorrow night. But they won’t be as good as the ones the Rev. Jim Bob Buice would of used. Except the guvmint ruint it for us. Telling him to stay away from kids.
The End Times is near when we got Congress ready to vote on something like this.
Bosch
November 30th, 2010
3:36 pm
“Jesus H. Christ on a Popsicle stick…are people really this moronic?”
Damn. Paul beat me to it.
Matti
November 30th, 2010
3:36 pm
But will Congress approve what the majority of Americans, the majority of military service personnel, and now the Pentagon endorse? Or will they dig their paternalistic, religio-pandering heels in and say (as they do to everything), “No, Heck no, and No Friggin Way!”
Keep up the good fight!
November 30th, 2010
3:37 pm
How many sides can McCain flip to on DADT?
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
3:37 pm
Paul / Keep up the good fight!,
I know…I know. I keep up the hope that it will be someone just playing around.
Normal
November 30th, 2010
3:39 pm
JewCowboy,
In my Military career, I believe I have know of more Marine Gays than Navy. I think that they get all macho and join the Marines, but there must be something about Camp Pendleton that brings them out…
godless heathen
November 30th, 2010
3:42 pm
On a semi-related questions: If during TSA pat-downs, male TSA agents grope male passengers and female TSA agents grope female passengers, how are gays handled? (Freudian slip, anyone?)
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
3:42 pm
Normal,
“I believe I have know of more Marine Gays than Navy. ”
I’ve known a couple as well.
Bosch
November 30th, 2010
3:43 pm
I wonder what kind of bullsh*t excuse McCain is going to come up with now?
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
3:44 pm
godless heathen,
“how are gays handled?”
The same as everyone else. My question is how is the guy wearing kilt without undies handled
Bosch
November 30th, 2010
3:45 pm
” My question is how is the guy wearing kilt without undies handled ”
Ewww.
Southern Comfort
November 30th, 2010
3:45 pm
godless
When I was at TSA there was one guy who was a cross-dresser. He worked in baggage screening. No touching of people at all.
Same thing with passengers. They are screened as they present themselves to an extent.
Bosch
November 30th, 2010
3:46 pm
Awwwww….where is Scout or Andy these days to tell us how homosexuals are an abomination and doomed to hell?
Logical Dude
November 30th, 2010
3:46 pm
“we do not believe this disruption will be widespread or long-lasting”
As I’ve said previously, the major result of ending “Don’t Ask/Don’t Tell” will be a huge collective yawn. “Huh? Something Happened? Oh, that’s it? oh, uh. . . no big deal.”
But it is a major step for gays, though, as now they won’t have to hide who they are, and can serve honorably and honestly. Which is also a major step for our military and country.
Paul
November 30th, 2010
3:46 pm
Bosch
I think the popsicle comment was jewcowboy.
But I can understand how you’d confuse two quipsters -
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
3:48 pm
I think I knew a few fellow Marines who were gay also, but they didn’t make a big deal about it and shove it in anyone’s face, but that will change with the new law.
Granny Godzilla
November 30th, 2010
3:48 pm
I wonder about McCain and DADT. The embarrassing floppety flippety
behavior….What’s really driving his opposition?
Bosch
November 30th, 2010
3:48 pm
Paul,
Yeah, but you beat me to the “you’ve been here and should know moron when you see it” quip.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
3:48 pm
If anyone is interested, here is the final report:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/44414052/DADTReport-FINAL-Hires
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
3:49 pm
Granny Godzilla,
“What’s really driving his opposition?”
Senility?
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
3:49 pm
“The same as everyone else. My question is how is the guy wearing kilt without undies handled”
Gosh… this jewcowboy sounds like a real moron…
Bosch
November 30th, 2010
3:51 pm
“Gosh… this jewcowboy sounds like a real moron…”
This, coming from “Gay Nazi flag” guy.
Jesus Christ
November 30th, 2010
3:51 pm
Leaving your wife to go around the world with other men that you shower with, and penetrate other men with knives and spermlike bullets. I’m sorry, but war is kind of very gay. Social Psychologists know this. The ambiguity is not lost on the highly aware.
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
3:51 pm
On the serious side first…267 pages will take time to read and digest…and, well, we’ll see,,,
NORMAL
Gen.Patrick Cleburne, CSA, would be glad to have seen this day…
jewcowboy
“The same as everyone else. My question is how is the guy wearing kilt without undies handled”
…with discretion?
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
3:52 pm
USMC Dawg,
“I think I knew a few fellow Marines who were gay also, but they didn’t make a big deal about it and shove it in anyone’s face, but that will change with the new law.”
How? By being able to actually be honest to their fellow soldiers…to have their partner notified in case of their death or injury? How is being honest instead of lying to everyone going to change how they conduct themselves as service members?
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
3:52 pm
“In my Military career, I believe I have know of more Marine Gays than Navy. I think that they get all macho and join the Marines, but there must be something about Camp Pendleton that brings them out…”
Wow, Normal, sounds like you have first hand experience. You sound a little angry about that.
What’s the matter? Did they hit it once and roll over and fall asleep on you?
Southern Comfort
November 30th, 2010
3:53 pm
“Gosh… this jewcowboy sounds like a real moron…”
This, coming from “Gay Nazi flag” guy.
We need monitor cleaner on aisle 3!!!
Pogo
November 30th, 2010
3:53 pm
Enter your chttp://www.foxnews.com/politics/2010/11/30/obama-faces-union-backlash-gambling-pay-freeze-proposal/omments here
Uh-oh, the union dogs are starting to eat their own.
Granny Godzilla
November 30th, 2010
3:55 pm
jewcowboy
certainly a possibility that can’t be discounted
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
3:55 pm
josef nix,
“…with discretion?”
Granny Godzilla
November 30th, 2010
3:56 pm
The same as everyone else. My question is how is the guy wearing kilt without undies handled”
Rubber gloves, mittens or salad tongs
AmVet
November 30th, 2010
3:57 pm
Back in 1993, when DADT was first run up the flagpole (get it?) and implemented the reactionaries in he GOP went berserk! They foresaw the demise of the United States military and tried every know trick in the book, including outright lies, to ensure it never came to be. Thee was MUCH gnashing of teeth.
And as usual (if not always), they were dead wrong. Morale did not go down the tubes, Readiness and discipline were in no way compromised.
Now that it is time to move into the 21st century and join in with every other enlightened nation, they are again going berserk and desperately want to keep DADT. Does anybody beside me see a trend here?
BTW, this irrational resistance to any and all change is the very hallmark of the stuck-in-the-1950s neo-cons.
As a subset of our American system, the modern day Republican Party is once again, the only group within any western democracy that, as a matter of everyday practice, denies the truth.
This new hyper-feared reality is something they will not see and cannot possibly understand…
RW-(the original)
November 30th, 2010
3:57 pm
267 pages will take time to read and digest
josef,
But Jay B has already read and digested the whole thing for us. Even gave us the money quote. That boy is one fast reader and digester.
Jay
November 30th, 2010
3:58 pm
That’s why you hire the professional, RW.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
3:58 pm
USMC Dawg,
“You sound a little angry about that.”
How does that sound angry? You just sound defensive about your daft statements earlier.
Paul
November 30th, 2010
3:58 pm
I’ve noted before: pilots wear these one-piece jumpsuits with velcro and lotsa zippers; guys in dress uniforms wear polyester trousers and patent leather shoes; combat guys go around with knee-high boots with trousers tucked into them so they poof out…
and military guys worry about having gays be obvious?!!?
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
3:58 pm
“salad tongs”
Keep up the good fight!
November 30th, 2010
3:59 pm
JCB…I think Dawg was saying that “they” did not behave like testosterone engorged heterosexuals on leave….BUT I have to add a disclaim that my “Marine Talk for Dummies” book is way out of date.
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
4:01 pm
USMC
And what, pray tell, constitutes “shoving it your face?”
@@
November 30th, 2010
4:01 pm
While I’m not opposed to repealing DADT, I have to agree with USMC Dawg. There will be unintended consequences. My hope is that it will reflect badly on those few gays who’ll use it to further their agenda, and not those gays who wish to serve with integrity.
Huge difference between this and this
Granted, thong boy is Parisian but we’ve got plenty like him here in the states.
There’ll be nothing stopping thong boy from trying to join. From the looks of it, he’ll be all too eager to show his ass. Will the gay community be squirming in their seats when he gets the boot or will they support the military’s decision?
Paul
November 30th, 2010
4:03 pm
@@
I don’t think it’ll be an issue. Military has this thing for regulations and uniforms and telling people how long their hair can’t be and what color it can’t be and if a shirt’s tucked in and which uniform to wear.
I don’t think thongs are in the table of approved uniform items -
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
4:04 pm
RW
But you gotta remember, the Bruin already knew that!
Keep up the good fight!
November 30th, 2010
4:04 pm
@@ – Because of course heterosexual military men never act out badly…..2 words…Tail……Hook.
RW-(the original)
November 30th, 2010
4:05 pm
But you gotta remember, the Bruin already knew that!
And we have no idea what the commission found out because Jay B made their computers type that report.
Hillbilly Deluxe
November 30th, 2010
4:05 pm
the nation might could be ready
If one is going to use the phrase “might could”, one should learn to use it correctly.
thebob.bob
November 30th, 2010
4:06 pm
Many people BELIEVE it is the WRONG way for the military to go. The problem for them is that beliefs aren’t facts.
Actually the survey (the data) says the opposite. The general public doesn’t care, 74% of the military doesn’t care, less that half of the hyper-macho Marines care, most Christians don’t care, and most telling, of those Christians that do care it’s only the conservative Evangelicals that care.
Sounds like a radical rightwing religious fringe group that wants to impose their narrow-minded religious views on the rest of us rather that accept the scientific data about the biological basis of homosexuality and the changed social mores that accept it.
Republebans are a dangerous, civil rights-hating splinter group that casts all Christians in a bad light. Kind of like Al Q’iada does for the Muslim faith.
TaxPayer
November 30th, 2010
4:09 pm
Well, personally, I simply cannot stand the thought of a gay that would not serve with integrity. I think we need to integrate all of them and be done with it.
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
4:09 pm
@@
Your links remind me or the naked lady swinging out over Bourbon promoting her agenda! ISH
md
November 30th, 2010
4:10 pm
“But will Congress approve what the majority of Americans”
Hmmm……now why in the world would they start now……………
RW-(the original)
November 30th, 2010
4:11 pm
josef,
That same lady has been swinging out over Bourbon Street for decades now. Is there no stripper union in New Orleans? She ages well though.
Hillbilly D,
I’ll bite. What are the rules for using “might could?”
Common Sense isn't very Common
November 30th, 2010
4:11 pm
Southern Comfort@3:27 pm
Uh Oh!!!! Here comes the “Nazi Gay Flag”!!!
———————–
Is it a rainbow with a Swastika?
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
4:12 pm
Keep up the good fight! @ 4.04,
Of course…these guys are exactly the same, and act exactly the same:
http://www.army.mil/-images/2009/01/13/28242/army.mil-28242-2009-01-13-070102.jpg
http://cdn.holytaco.com/www/sites/default/files/images/2009/12/redneck2009.jpg
@@
November 30th, 2010
4:12 pm
Paul:
I don’t think thongs are in the table of approved uniform items
It wasn’t really about the thong, it’s about freedom of expression. Where will the floss be drawn?
josef:
Thank goodness! I thought you were gonna dangle your thong in front of me.
(ISH)
Southern Comfort
November 30th, 2010
4:12 pm
@ Common Sense
Be careful, or you’ll be asked to come out of your ivory tower. If I had an ivory tower, I would have came out of it after I asked that question earlier.
Logical Dude
November 30th, 2010
4:13 pm
Yaaaaaawwwwwwwwnnnnnnnnnnn.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
4:13 pm
RW-(the original),
“Is there no stripper union in New Orleans? She ages well though.”
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
4:14 pm
@@,
“It wasn’t really about the thong, it’s about freedom of expression.”
I didn’t know the military allowed free personal expression…
Logical Dude
November 30th, 2010
4:16 pm
@@ says “It’s about freedom of Expression”
I don’t think the military allows freedom of expression in the ways you are thinking.
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
4:17 pm
@@
MY thong don’t dangle!
RW
Still looks like she did when my aunt took me down to see her when I was 10! The strippers don’t have a union down there, but the ladies of the evening DO have their socio-political agenda spokeswomen…
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
4:18 pm
Guys, I am not against gay people.
My oldest brother was a beautiful gay man who died of aids.
(he was my favorite brother of 4 boys, but tell my other brothers)
I loved him dearly.
I am just saying that the new rules will present new and complicated issues that HURT the mission.
ie Hate crimes and Sexual harassment, just to name a few.
RW-(the original)
November 30th, 2010
4:19 pm
ladies of the evening
lady of the evening
lady of the evening
lady of the evening
Damn, can’t we even say Ho Ho Ho anymore?
Hat tip: Larry the Cable Guy’s Politically Correct Christmas
Del
November 30th, 2010
4:19 pm
Gates did say during his summary report that resistance to repeal did exist within the combat arms and that resistance concerned military commanders. He went on to say that he was concerned about that resistance as well. I think he’s sincere when he says that deciding this issue in the courts would create greater disruption than to have it accomplished legislatively. I don’t think DADT should be repealed without taking a deep and unbiased study of the concerns that the Pentagon survey found within the military’s combat arms regardless of Gates’s concern with our federal court system. The nations security is far more important than politics and ideology.
Logical Dude
November 30th, 2010
4:20 pm
USMC Dawg says: Hate crimes and Sexual harassment, just to name a few.
These already have rules against them. like the report said, instances are expected to be few and far between. Otherwise, YAWN.
Matti
November 30th, 2010
4:22 pm
ie Hate crimes and Sexual harassment, just to name a few.
You mean like what happens NOW to female soldiers?
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
4:22 pm
USMC
I have a breeder siblings I’m fond of and we have lots of straight friends. There’s a nice straight couple next door. We had some straight friends over the other night. I just wish they’d not shove it in our faces…you know what I mean? I mean why can’t they just keep it in private,,,
AmVet
November 30th, 2010
4:23 pm
Dawg, did you order the Code Red?
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
4:23 pm
“These already have rules against them. like the report said, instances are expected to be few and far between. Otherwise, YAWN.”
Logical Dude, You pansy. “reports say”… are you kidding me. Get out of the house and go do something with yourself besides playing video games and eating hot pockets.
I have beeen there. Have you? “F” your reports. Yeah, you sound real logical.. Jackass!
Hillbilly Deluxe
November 30th, 2010
4:23 pm
RW
It’s used to imply less than 100% certainty, usually in reference to doing something (a task), as in a reply. Example: Question: “Would it be best to do it the other way?” Answer: “Well, we might could do it that way”.
It’s one of those things that you have to be raised with to know but when it’s used incorrectly, it sticks out like a sore thumb.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
4:24 pm
USMC Dawg,
“I am not against gay people.”
No…you are just ill-informed and present imbecilic arguments.
“I am just saying that the new rules will present new and complicated issues that HURT the mission.”
I’ve got news for you…the mission has been going on for almost a decade now…and perceptions of gay people is changing faster than the mission.
“ie Hate crimes and Sexual harassment, just to name a few.”
That is why there is a Uniform Code of Military Justice. It applies to all those equally in the armed services, regardless of race, creed, sex or sexuality.
I have faith in our service members and their leaders…why don’t you?
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
4:24 pm
“Dawg, did you order the Code Red?”
I did what I was told
Dusty
November 30th, 2010
4:24 pm
Well, I thought Jewcowboy would be down at the recruitment office already. I know this is a happy day for him. Congrats, fellow!!
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
4:25 pm
RW-(the original) @ 4.19,
You are cracking me up today.
@@
November 30th, 2010
4:25 pm
cowboy:
I didn’t know the military allowed free personal expression
So what’s the repeal of DADT all about?
josef:
It don’t dangle? I’m not surprised seein’s how you’ve always got a bone to pick.
schnirt
Paul
November 30th, 2010
4:25 pm
@@
“It wasn’t really about the thong, it’s about freedom of expression. Where will the floss be drawn?”
It’s the military. Freedom of expression means doing your job well. If people want to express themselves in how they dress, the military’s the wrong career choice.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
4:27 pm
Dusty,
“I thought Jewcowboy would be down at the recruitment office already”
We can carpool.
RW-(the original)
November 30th, 2010
4:27 pm
Hillbilly D,
Thanks. That’s pretty much what I instinctively thought and I just went back and saw where it was used on page one. I missed it the first time since that’s one of the people I generally scroll past.
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
4:28 pm
“No…you are just ill-informed and present imbecilic arguments.”
No Jewcowboy, you narcissistic pseudo- intellectual. I’ve been there and EXPERIENCED.
Have you?
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
4:28 pm
@@
TOO good! ISH
Hillbilly Deluxe
November 30th, 2010
4:29 pm
RW
Well, he tries but he just don’t know or understand the people he’s trying to make fun of. Bless his Lil’ Carpetbagger heart.
Paul
November 30th, 2010
4:30 pm
USMC Dawg 4:18
Nice clarification – thanks.
jewcowboy
Was at Home Depot the other weekend, young guy with long hair in a ponytail and a goatee helped me with some stuff. Got to talking, he’d been a Marine and had some postings that clearly set him above his contemporaries. Anyhow, he was now married with two kids and wanted to go back in the military so bad he couldn’t stand it, but his wife’s opposed.
Guy went in not long after you tried. I told him, given what’s happened since 9-11 with the repeated deployments and the operational tempo and the risks, that I just admired the heck out of young people who volunteer with their eyes wide open.
Same goes for you -
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
4:30 pm
USMC
Unmentionable’s is a career military family going back to the pre Columbian. Our boy is continuing the family tradition. I’ll take his word for it.
Common Sense isn't very Common
November 30th, 2010
4:30 pm
Bosch
November 30th, 2010
3:45 pm
” My question is how is the guy wearing kilt without undies handled ”
Ewww.
———————-
Ask the Scots lady or is that the lady with the Scotch LOL.
Ask USinUK to go by the airport and check so she can update all of the curious minded LMAO
Keep up the good fight!
November 30th, 2010
4:31 pm
Dawg…what have you experienced? Harrassment? Hate Crime? As victim or perpetrator?
Or was it a homosexual experience?
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
4:31 pm
Jewcowboy… were you an extra in Brokeback Mountain?
Village People
November 30th, 2010
4:31 pm
In the NAVEE LOL
JohnnyReb
November 30th, 2010
4:32 pm
Today Rush reported that Eric Cantor stated it was Republican intent to keep the portion of Obamacare for pre-xisting conditions. Why do I bring this up in connection with DADT? Because Repbulicans can be re-elected if they vote for abolishing DADT, but not if they keep the pre-existing condition coverage in Obamacare. Doing so is not insurance, it’s welfare. The media today is focusing on tax hikes, but you will hear more about Cantor’s remarks in the coming days/weeks, possibly a bigger uproar than that over DADT. As it turns out, at least Eric Cantor is as deaf as the loyal Left opposition to the message of the mid-term.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
4:34 pm
Del,
“I think he’s sincere when he says that deciding this issue in the courts would create greater disruption than to have it accomplished legislatively.”
Ideally, it would be good to have both.
“I don’t think DADT should be repealed without taking a deep and unbiased study of the concerns….”
I have a feeling, and granted it is just anecdotal, that the majority of service members, straight and gay, would prefer this to just be implemented rather than dragging out so the folks in Congress can get their photo-ops for the base back home.
It’s really time to stop playing politics with a law 70+% of service members and the public, either don’t care about it, or feel is outdated.
Logical Dude
November 30th, 2010
4:34 pm
USMC Dawg says “Logical Dude, You pansy” (and other stuff not directly related to the question)
I’m a military brat who would have been in the Navy, but had medical issues. Brother was a Marine also. Sorry, I’m busy working to keep up with the personal attacks. I prefer to discuss the situation rather than personal attacks that provide nothing to the discussion.
Otherwise, your arguments regarding more sexual harrassment and hate crimes are valid. I just dont’ think they’ll be as widespread as you believe. The report (that you dimisss readily) also says that these are expected consequences, but they will not be as significant as you expect.
As it says above ” will likely, in the short term, bring about some limited and isolated disruption ”
It is not the downfall of the US Military as we know it.
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
4:34 pm
jewcowboy
I’ve been meaning to ask you. What was your take on Brokeback Mountain?
Del
November 30th, 2010
4:35 pm
USMC Dawg,
I don’t think hate crimes would be a factor although there’s the potential for isolated incidents. My concern would be a drop in enlistments/re-enlistments that would impact our all volunteer military. I don’t see how the Pentagon survey result could guarantee that we would not see the unintended consequence of a serious decline in enlistments and re-enlistments along with a declining officer corps.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
4:35 pm
USMC Dawg,
“were you an extra in Brokeback Mountain?”
No, but from your previous post it sounds like you have been:
“I’ve been there and EXPERIENCED.”
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
4:35 pm
“Dawg…what have you experienced? Harrassment? Hate Crime? As victim or perpetrator?
Or was it a homosexual experience?”
That’s Cute “Keep up the good plight”
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
4:38 pm
jewcowboy,
I am noticing that you are good at avoiding common sense by throwing slurs and changing the subject.
AmVet
November 30th, 2010
4:39 pm
OK, for all you guys like me, who grew up with one of these, today is the 200th birthday of Oliver Fisher Winchester…
http://tinyurl.com/2b7yky9
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
4:39 pm
Del,
“I don’t see how the Pentagon survey result could guarantee that we would not see the unintended consequence of a serious decline in enlistments and re-enlistments along with a declining officer corps.”
Seeing as we are not recruiting 50 year olds…I really don’t see recruitment as a problem. 20 somethings could give a rat’s ass. A, a-hem, bigger problem is the fact that they are all out of shape from video games.
Dusty
November 30th, 2010
4:40 pm
Maybe the armed forces in Iraq and Afghanistan should have a day off since nobody seems concerned about them. They are over there getting killed for their country and their country is busy at home……..discussing new policies that MAY cause a few problems. A few problems!!!
Yeah, sure, that’s all they need is a FEW more problems with ieds underfoot and snipers stationed and a year since being home and they will ONLY have a few more problems. Well, whoopee!!
It is high time a little more concern for those ALREADY IN THE MILITARY fighting including gays, not who might join in the distant future. The only flag that is raised is the American flag and I get tired of those who forget that. We need to fight and win our wars now and that should be our main directive without sideline distractions. .Is that hard to understand??. . .
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
4:40 pm
USMC Dawg,
“I am noticing that you are good at avoiding common sense by throwing slurs and changing the subject.”
and Brokeback Mountain is the subject…
RW-(the original)
November 30th, 2010
4:41 pm
JohnnyReb,
There are lots of ways you can be denied for a pre-existing condition that has nothing to do with gaming the system. Having an employer based system creates the problem most of the time. Let’s say you have a job that provides insurance and you come down with some malady that is covered by your insurance. You and your insurance company play by the rules for years but then the company goes under. Now you have no insurance and a pre-existing condition so it has to be addressed.
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
4:41 pm
Del, you are correct at 4:35.
I am merely scratching the surface. But you know just as well as i do that when someone gets in a fight, they are going to CRY “HATE” crime because the guy that hit him said the word “FAG”.
Do Marines fight each other, you betcha.
Keep up the good fight!
November 30th, 2010
4:41 pm
Dawg… You claim some “experience” that puts you in a better position to have an “informed opinion” that differs from that of the Secretary of Defense and a lot of other military men, civilian leaders, and average citizens. So let’s be clear what that is. And please don’t tell me its because you have served in the military…..let’s get to the real “experience”.
Otherwise, just admit, your opinion with its underlying bias is not supported by any number of people who do have information to assess the impact on the military and its policies.
Hillbilly Deluxe
November 30th, 2010
4:42 pm
AmVet
He made some fine firearms. The most recognizable is probably the Model 73 but I’m partial to the Model 12 pump shotguns, myself.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
4:42 pm
Dusty,
“We need to fight and win our wars now and that should be our main directive without sideline distractions. .”
We’ve been fighting “our wars” for about a decade now…do you really ever see an end in sight to something called “The War on Terrorism”?
Bosch
November 30th, 2010
4:42 pm
Reb,
Maybe I’m just reading your post wrong, but your 4:32 is a bit confusing — are you criticizing Cantor for wanting to keep the pre-exisiting part of the new Health Care Bill?
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
4:43 pm
“and Brokeback Mountain is the subject…”
No jew, but while you were at it I joined in. Douche.
Ragnar Danneskjöld
November 30th, 2010
4:43 pm
From page 73:
“Among the Services, the Marines were consistently more negative in their responses
about the effect of repeal. The combat arms communities in both the Army and the Marine
Corps were also more negative about the effect of repeal than others in their Services.183
For example, as discussed earlier, approximately 44% of all Service members said
that their unit’s effectiveness “in a field environment or out at sea” would be negatively
impacted by repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell. Nearly 60% of respondents in the Marine Corps
and in Army combat arms said they believed there would be a negative impact on their unit’s
effectiveness in this context; among Marine combat arms the number was 67%. (See Table
15.)
“Likewise, when asked how repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell would impact the readiness of
their immediate unit, 21% of Service members overall said that it would have a negative
impact. Among Marine Corps respondents this number was 32%; among Army combat
arms it was 35%; and among Marine combat arms 43%….”
My analysis is that only a leftist would think you can fly against the wishes of 1/3 of your actual fighting force with no effect. As with all leftist initiatives, that is a disaster in the making.
Bosch
November 30th, 2010
4:43 pm
“and Brokeback Mountain is the subject…”
jewcowboy,
or is it sexual harrasment and hate crimes?
@@
November 30th, 2010
4:44 pm
Dusty:
I feel duly chastised. I do keep up with what’s going on in Afghanistan and Iraq though.
You’re correct when you say it and they have taken a backseat. I blame it on the media.
Bosch
November 30th, 2010
4:44 pm
jewcowboy,
I guess douches are now the subject?
Ragnar Danneskjöld
November 30th, 2010
4:44 pm
Apologies, should have said page 74.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
4:44 pm
josef nix,
“What was your take on Brokeback Mountain?”
Annie Proulx’s short story was very good, but the movie was rather boring. Good cinematography and decent acting, though.
md
November 30th, 2010
4:46 pm
“Now you have no insurance and a pre-existing condition so it has to be addressed.”
Along with the “group” rates………..hc had problems, but didn’t need 1200+ pages of crap to “fix” it. Look for another 1200+ pages down the road to fix the fix………….
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
4:46 pm
Bosch,
“I guess douches are now the subject?”
Well USMC Dawg seems to be the resident expert…maybe that is his experience.
Common Sense isn't very Common
November 30th, 2010
4:46 pm
SoCo
Be careful, or you’ll be asked to come out of your ivory tower. If I had an ivory tower, I would have came out of it after I asked that question
———————————
I don’t look good in ivory I’m more of a Deep Purple kind of guy LOL
JohnnyReb
November 30th, 2010
4:48 pm
If JohnnyReb was a Congressman, I would vote to repeal DADT. I continue to have some concerns, but if the guys and girls in the ranks think it will be OK, then it will. Every man and woman in the military, since it’s all volunteer, is a hero to me. None should be punished for their sexual preference as long as it’s exercise does not harm the corp. I don’t understand why people are gay, but there are a lot of other things God created that I also don’t understand. Let the first rock fly. On this subject, it will no longer be from me.
BlahBlahBlah
November 30th, 2010
4:48 pm
The last excuse of the intolerant portion of the right wing has been laid to rest.
Repeal it now.
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
4:48 pm
“Otherwise, just admit, your opinion with its underlying bias is not supported by any number of people who do have information to assess the impact on the military and its policies.”
No “Keep”, you sit here on a blog and paste charts a polls and pontificate. really, What the “F” do you know about the military?
I was on the front line many times in a Combat Arms unit. I would say my years in the Marine Corps are better than your Pseudo intellectual drivel that you pass as intelligence here on a blog.
You can paste charts and polls, but they are not always reality.
So just admit that you don’t have a clue about the military and take your foot out of your mouth.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
4:49 pm
Ragnar Danneskjöld,
“My analysis is that only a leftist would think you can fly against the wishes of 1/3 of your actual fighting force with no effect. ”
I have faith in the people serving in our armed forces…sorry you don’t seem to.
Bosch
November 30th, 2010
4:49 pm
Reb,
” but there are a lot of other things God created that I also don’t understand”
Giraffes. For me, it’s giraffes.
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
4:50 pm
johnnyreb
Would that you were in Congress…you’re still MY hero…
@@
November 30th, 2010
4:50 pm
jewcowboy,
I guess douches are now the subject?
Leave it to Bosch to avoid the front lines and wage war from the rear.
Little twit!
Ragnar Danneskjöld
November 30th, 2010
4:50 pm
Dear USMC Dawg @ 4:48, the report data supports everything you say here. Only the politically-dictated conclusions, quoted by our host, differ.
AmVet
November 30th, 2010
4:50 pm
Yep, HD, that lever action made life a whole lot easier to squeeze off several shots than that bolt action!
As for shotguns, my dad had this side by side 12 gauge thing, I think it was foreign made and possibly war vintage.
As it seemingly weighed about as much as me at the time, it was a real bear to shoot! But man, it put a heckuva hole in anything it hit…
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
4:51 pm
“Well USMC Dawg seems to be the resident expert…maybe that is his experience.”
Easily said while sitting behind your computer….
Bosch
November 30th, 2010
4:52 pm
@@,
That’s twice today you’ve tried to bait me, are you starved for attention? Is Semper not home from the slums?
RW-(the original)
November 30th, 2010
4:52 pm
md,
I hope I didn’t leave the impression I’m for that health care monstrosity. I was just pointing out that pre-existing condition doesn’t just mean waiting until you get sick and then buying insurance.
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
4:52 pm
BOSCH/johnnyreb
“G-d in H-s wisdom made the fly.
And then forgot to tell us why..”
Mine..? The Platypus..and the French
Dusty
November 30th, 2010
4:52 pm
jewcowboy,
If our troops are fighting for 25 years I still think we should give 100% support. Alll the representatives of our people voted for these war efforts. Have you stopped supporting our current efforts because they take too long?
Bosch
November 30th, 2010
4:53 pm
“Easily said while sitting behind your computer….”
Says the guy…..sitting behind a computer.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
4:53 pm
USMC Dawg,
“I was on the front line many times in a Combat Arms unit.”
Did I see “was” in there…versus the people that are currently serving and currently serving leaders…gotcha.
“So just admit that you don’t have a clue about the military and take your foot out of your mouth.”
Admit you don’t have a clue about gay people and take your head out of your ass.
Ragnar Danneskjöld
November 30th, 2010
4:53 pm
Dear cowboy @ 4:49, with all due respect, I think I am the one who appreciates our military, and you are the one who would cram it down their collective throat.
Change needs to be managed when 2/3s of your most important component opposes the change. While you rely on faith, I cling to reason.
Bosch
November 30th, 2010
4:53 pm
josef,
I was GONNA say the platypus too! But I decided the giraffe was much more complexing.
RW-(the original)
November 30th, 2010
4:53 pm
Considering the topic I’m not so sure about the wording of waging war from the rear.
Logical Dude
November 30th, 2010
4:54 pm
Ragnar, what are the Navy and Air Force numbers?
Otherwise, what causes the perceived “loss in unit’s effectiveness”?
a) because gays can’t fight?
b) because gays are less effective?
c) because knowing someone is gay makes straight people less effective?
d) because knowing someone is gay makes straight people unable to fight?
A) and B) are invalid because there are gays currently serving.
So, as I see it, it’s because some in the military are just uncomfortable with serving with gay people. GET OVER IT, you’re all Americans and can fight side by side defending your country.
Ask the same questions 70 years ago about serving with Blacks, and you’ll see a similar (or even more deeply divided) response pattern. Integrating the military also resulted in a few isolated incidences. But once those serving realized that each person in their unit is American, everything else doesn’t matter.
Bosch
November 30th, 2010
4:55 pm
josef,
Forgot, but the fly is food for frogs….and were made knowing that someday Emily Dickinson would write a poem that has really weirded me out since the first time I read it!
JohnnyReb
November 30th, 2010
4:55 pm
RW – I personally have never experienced an inability to get insurance coverage for me or mine. I see your point in the scenario.
Bosch – yes, I’m criticizing Cantor, and so will the Tea Party folks and other conservatives.
The concern on forcing insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions is, they can’t plan for the expense. It will either drive them out of business or force rates that are astronomical. Either plays right into the hands of those that favor single payer. I do agree a situation like RW pointed out needs to be addressed, but not blanket, unbridled pre-existing coverage.
Keep up the good fight!
November 30th, 2010
4:56 pm
Dawg….1st you have NO idea what my role in the military may or may not have been or may currently be. On that subject you are completely, absolutely ignorant….
As to your experience in the military…thanks for your service but that does not make you an expert on everything military or on every branch of the military. Nor does your “unstated” CV make you an expert compared to the current top military leaders. So really, you are just blowing it out your arse and expecting everyone to salute it as part of your flag waving.
When did service in the military ever give you “intelligence” that surpasses all others?
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
4:56 pm
Dusty,
“Have you stopped supporting our current efforts because they take too long?”
Ask if I supported them to begin with. The world still moves forward despite being engaged in conflict and so does the military. Saying, “don’t do anything, b/c we are at war” is an excuse and a lame one at that.
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
4:56 pm
Ragnar Danneskjöld,
Thanks for your input.
Jay Bookman has never served his country and does not know what he is talking about, eventhough I like him.
He also cuts and pastes straight from Huffington Post, EVERYDAY. And that’s ok. I like and somehow respect Jay. I do. But he knows NOTHING about sacrificing for the country. It is easy to sit up here in his Ivory Tower and play “why not” with the very institutions that built this great country. That’s easy!
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
4:57 pm
Bosch,
“Says the guy…..sitting behind a computer.”
Dang! You beat me to it.
Bosch
November 30th, 2010
4:58 pm
Reb,
Hate to say I told you so….but I told you so….the GOP will be no different and will change nothing in the HC Bill. In order to keep the goodies that so many like — like the pre-existing conditions, the insurance companies will have to be paid by the parts that everyone hates — the part about everybody having to have it.
“Either plays right into the hands of those that favor single payer.”
Which, was the plan from the beginning.
WE WIN!!!
Ragnar Danneskjöld
November 30th, 2010
4:58 pm
Dear Logical @ 4:54, perhaps you and I are near agreement here. Air Force and Navy are much less hostile to the suggestion of integrating homosexuals into the military. Where that is the case, it makes more sense to integrate where there is less opposition – Navy and Air Force – and not into Army and Marines. The ones who do the heaviest lifting are the ones most opposed to the proposed change. It is never intelligent management to impose a broadly opposed change, rather one introduces it slowly.
Bosch
November 30th, 2010
5:01 pm
jewcowboy,
Reading through Dawg’s posts today, I’ve been scratching my head and thinking “Really? This is way too easy.”
Okay, carry on the leftie torch, I must make my exit. Farewell and adieu.
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
5:01 pm
BOSCH
Food for Frogs? Well, the DO eat snails and other weird things! No wonder they make such good wine…gotta wash it down with something…
JohnnyReb
November 30th, 2010
5:01 pm
Bosch, it’s only the beginning. I predict that in the coming days/weeks, Cantor will walk back his remarks. He will receive a lot of heat, so much so he can’t bear it.
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
5:01 pm
Keep up the good fight,
You sound pretty insecure there, buddy.
I never said I was an expert or a flag waiver, but I served and I experienced life in the Marine Corps, so I am just relaying my experience and those of my comrades.
And don’t start with intelligence, because you would go down in the first round, brutha.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
5:01 pm
Ragnar Danneskjöld,
“with all due respect, I think I am the one who appreciates our military, and you are the one who would cram it down their collective throat.”
So many euphemisms…so little time. And stop being a freakin martyr…just because someone has divergent views than you on military policy doesn’t mean they don’t appreciate the military.
“Change needs to be managed when 2/3s of your most important component opposes the change. ”
I certainly agree…and that is why we have military leaders. I have faith in them to lead service members through this change with little disruption.
RW-(the original)
November 30th, 2010
5:02 pm
WE WIN!!!
Four weeks from election 2010 is a pretty quick historical rewrite for a triple L to be making that declaration. Congrats!
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
5:02 pm
USMC
In case you don’t know, Jay’s a military brat…
Scout
November 30th, 2010
5:02 pm
Jay:
Someone may have already posted this but is there a breakdown of responses by service and/or MOS classification?
1) I believe there will be a big difference between Air Force compupter specialists and Marine Corps infantry.
2) The report overall doesn’t surprise me. Our culture has been changing for the worse for a long time now.
3) Let’s see what Congress does (or does not do).
Logical Dude
November 30th, 2010
5:03 pm
Ragnar says: “It is never intelligent management to impose a broadly opposed change, rather one introduces it slowly”
Yeah, Gays were allowed in the military in 1993, so it’s been almost 20 years.
It’s time for the next step. Allow the gays to serve openly and honorably and honestly.
Bosch
November 30th, 2010
5:03 pm
Reb,
You are probably right. The GOP are going to have a hell of a time negotiating the agreements with the insurance companies….their masters.
People like the goodies in the bill but haven’t figured out that they must be paid for.
G’night and sleep tight and pleasantries to you!!!
Ragnar Danneskjöld
November 30th, 2010
5:03 pm
Dear Logical @ 4:54, I did not address the “rationale” you proffer because it was silly, especially your analogy to black integration. We had a long history of courageous fighting by segregated black units long before integration. Even the integration of females into the military – which has not gone nearly so smoothly as the racial integration – had a precedent of service. Perhaps you would agree that we ought to form a unit, to be known as the Fighting Pansies, exclusively homosexual, and permit them to demonstrate courage under fire. It would thereafter be much easier to integrate homosexuals.
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
5:04 pm
Logical, do you even know what a “Combat Arms” unit is and how it is different from other units?
This isn’t a multiple choice question.
Paul
November 30th, 2010
5:04 pm
JohnnyReb
“The concern on forcing insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions is, they can’t plan for the expense.”
Seems to me the system without covering preexisting conditions is the one companies can’t plan for. See, everyone signed up without preexisting conditions is an unknown. Will they get a serious illness? Will the illness require lifelong care? How old when they get it?
With preexisting, they’re dealing with a known – they know what it is and what the treatment regimen is.
Bosch
November 30th, 2010
5:04 pm
RW,
I was speaking for us that wanted single payer…..we have had a plan all along.
Bwahahahahahahhahaha….ha..ha. ha. HA!
Dusty
November 30th, 2010
5:04 pm
Another thing jewcowboy,
Ragnar has a son in the military who has an outstanding record. I believe his interest in the military is a bit more focused and faiathful than yours. He has also read the suggested regulations. I don’t think you have.
Scout
November 30th, 2010
5:05 pm
josef @ 5:02
I’m not talking about Jay per se, but sometimes “military brats” hate the military the most since they experienced the transfers, etc. without having agreed to it.
Ragnar Danneskjöld
November 30th, 2010
5:05 pm
Dear Cowboy @ 5:01, “I certainly agree…and that is why we have military leaders. I have faith in them to lead service members through this change with little disruption.” So, if Petraeus comes back and asks for 20 years to accomplish the job, you are on board?
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
5:06 pm
Bosch,
Remind me…What makes you so smart?
Southern Comfort
November 30th, 2010
5:06 pm
JReb for Congress!!!
Common Sense
Deep Purple??? Just as long as it’s not too hazy!!
jcb
Here’s a linkee for you.
http://www.visittex.com/images/headup.jpg
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
5:06 pm
Ragnar Danneskjöld,
“So, if Petraeus comes back and asks for 20 years to accomplish the job, you are on board?”
As long he has the data to back it up…sure.
Scout
November 30th, 2010
5:06 pm
USMC Dawg:
They can never know because they haven’t been there to “see the elephant”.
India 3/4
1967-68
Paul
November 30th, 2010
5:07 pm
“do you even know what a “Combat Arms” unit is and how it is different from other units?”
While a unit designation’s nice and all, I consistently see estimates that less than ten percent of military ever see combat. And that includes field-graders who fly into Qatar for a few days to get it in their records (and to qualify for tax free pay, the scofflaws) they were in a combat zone.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
5:07 pm
Southern Comfort @ 5.06,
Logical Dude
November 30th, 2010
5:08 pm
USMC Dawg : “do you even know what a “Combat Arms” unit is and how it is different from other units”
So, guys that carry guns are more scared of gay people? They are less able to fight next to a gay person?
Paul
November 30th, 2010
5:08 pm
“Bosch,
Remind me…What makes you so smart?”
Offhand, I’d say his brain and how he uses it.
Others in the general population, however…….
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
5:08 pm
Look, if they change the law and allow gays to “openly” be gay, then we’ll manage.
But our fighting force will NOT be as EFFECTIVE. It won’t be the end of the world though.
Ragnar Danneskjöld
November 30th, 2010
5:08 pm
As friend Dusty observes @ 5:04, I have an interest. My son is a genius, and a tolerant soul, and he is the sort of leader who could manage such change. But managing change does not mean “putting everyone together and hoping for the best.” That would make no more sense than for Obama to tell democrats in Congress to balance the budget today. Planning for a big change takes more time than implementing it.
Keep up the good fight!
November 30th, 2010
5:10 pm
Dawg…..hard for you to relate the real experiences of your comrades because you are not them and you dont know how many of them were homosexual or not….
As for intelligence…you sound very insecure about yours….so what next? Are you smarter than a 5th grader at 20 paces?
Really, if you are so intelligent, it would be nice if you start reflecting that intelligence in your posts.
Southern Comfort
November 30th, 2010
5:11 pm
Bosch is smart?
j/k
RW-(the original)
November 30th, 2010
5:12 pm
Bosch,
That plot setting us on a path to single payer started long before this latest HCR bill.
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
5:13 pm
Paul, you just showed your ignorance about the military.
And it’s okay, most people don’t know what a Combat Arms unit is.
I am not merely talking about a “designation”, sweetheart.
How about using your brain and admit you don’t have a clue about the military. It’s ok there are subjects I am not experienced in, but I am SMART enough not to ACT like I know what is what.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
5:13 pm
USMC Dawg,
“But our fighting force will NOT be as EFFECTIVE.”
Specifically how…not generalities…not innuendo..not stereotypes…specifics on exactly how allowing service members to serve honestly without lying to their fellow members would our fighting force become less effective.
Left wing management
November 30th, 2010
5:13 pm
“The country is ready. The military is ready. The time for waiting has passed; the time for acting has finally come. ”
And the GOP is ready for a knife battle.
Thus spake Zarathustra and blinked …
Logical Dude
November 30th, 2010
5:13 pm
Scout says “sometimes “military brats” hate the military ”
Not sure I can agree with you there. Having lived as a military brat up until college, almost everyone of my peers would have joined the military or supports the military fully.
Not sure if it’s just a Naval thing, since I wasn’t around many Army or Air Force brats. But the considerable majority suppor the military.
It’s the clueless politicians and what they want to do with the military that aggravates me. LOL
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
5:15 pm
And the answer is…. from Logical Dude:
“So, guys that carry guns are more scared of gay people? They are less able to fight next to a gay person?”
Wrong answer… you can go back to the bong now. Thanks for playing.
Dusty
November 30th, 2010
5:15 pm
Get it straight, jewcowboy,
I said that I did not think distraction during combat time was the way to help the military. Don’t start twisting what I post.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
5:16 pm
Ragnar Danneskjöld,
“Planning for a big change takes more time than implementing it.”
I certainly agree with that. But, regardless of an individuals feelings, this will happen. And just like I am sure there are surely currently some white soldiers who are uncomfortable serving alongside black soldiers…it will be their choice to continue serving or get out. And there will be plenty of 20 year old recruits right behind them to don’t give a crap.
Scout
November 30th, 2010
5:16 pm
Logical Dude:
I hear you but I said “sometimes” and support for is a lot different from wanting to join up.
Paul @ 5:07:
You are correct about the 10% but that is where it matters the most. In that kind of environment where men are living so close together, etc.
Logical Dude
November 30th, 2010
5:17 pm
USMC Dawg, “back to the bong now”
As much as I am for legalizing, I do not partake LOL
But can you give specifics on why a Combat Arms unit would be less effective if the people in the unit knew that someone in the unit was gay?
Jesus Christ
November 30th, 2010
5:17 pm
Robert Gates just called out John McCain on whether he’s going to be the next version of George Wallace for the History Books.
Logical Dude
November 30th, 2010
5:19 pm
Scout says “I hear you but I said “sometimes” and support for is a lot different from wanting to join up.”
I guess I read “sometimes” as “usually”.
But I can’t recall a military brat that hates the military. I may find one of them one of these days.
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
5:19 pm
Jewcowboy,
I am not going to write an essay for you. No you don’t get colorful charts and graphs.
I merely was stating an opinion from my experience as a leader in the Marines.
But let’s start with it disrupts esprit de corps that units need to be effective in the field.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
5:23 pm
Dusty,
Why don’t you get it straight youtself.
““We need to fight and win our wars now and that should be our main directive without sideline distractions. .” ~ Dusty
” We’ve been fighting “our wars” for about a decade now…do you really ever see an end in sight to something called “The War on Terrorism”?” ~ jewcowboy
““Have you stopped supporting our current efforts because they take too long?” ~ Dusty
“Ask if I supported them to begin with. The world still moves forward despite being engaged in conflict and so does the military. Saying, “don’t do anything, b/c we are at war” is an excuse and a lame one at that.” ~ jewcowboy
How did I twist your words? You were stating that we shouldn’t change anything b/c we were in 2 wars…which we have been for almost a decade…I was pointing out the world moves on despite us being in 2 wars. Attitudes change and if the military wants to keep getting recruits to fight those it had better change with society.
Paul
November 30th, 2010
5:25 pm
USMC Dawg
“Paul, you just showed your ignorance about the military.”
How? Did I not distinguish between a designation given to a unit, an organization (regiment or wing, for example) and the people within that unit who actually see combat?
What about that demonstrates ignorance?
Plenty of guys in combat arms units are REMFs. That’s a military term, isn’t it? Golly gee, I guess I know something!!!.
Oh, and when you speak of a Combat Arms unit, are you speaking of only one or two branches of the military, because, just maybe, you are ignorant about the others, hmmmmm?
“Sweetheart?!!?”
Scout
Sure. But again, there are Navy guys and AF guys who are in combat arms-designated ‘units’ who actually see combat but have entirely different living conditions than groundpounders. Seriously, seems to me the assumption on part of straight guys is the gay guys just won’t be able to control themselves when they see the straight guys. THAT, I think, says more about the views of the straight guys when it comes to self control.
TaxPayer
November 30th, 2010
5:26 pm
I thought @@ claimed that she would never, ever take another’s post and use it to attack another. Well! Never sure is a short span of time.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
5:26 pm
USMC Dawg,
“No you don’t get colorful charts and graphs.”
Meaning I don’t have anything to back up my position except my personal feelings…
“I merely was stating an opinion from my experience as a leader in the Marines.”
ditto…
“But let’s start with it disrupts esprit de corps that units need to be effective in the field.”
You know just saying doesn’t it make it true…and the data released today disproves your assertion.
TaxPayer
November 30th, 2010
5:27 pm
Who put that burr in USMC Dawg’s thong?
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
5:27 pm
“Robert Gates just called out John McCain on whether he’s going to be the next version of George Wallace for the History Books”
Too late…
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
5:28 pm
Paul,
““Sweetheart?!!?””
Looks like someone is sweet on you
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
5:30 pm
Paul,
“THAT, I think, says more about the views of the straight guys when it comes to self control.”
Bingo!
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
5:32 pm
At the risk of bringing out our inresident anti-Semites…but have you military types taken into consideration the Israeli Defense Force…believe me, when your back is to the wall and you’re surrounded by unfriendly types who are hell bent on your elimination as a people, such bull hockey as being bandied about here becomes an abstract…
Paul
November 30th, 2010
5:32 pm
jewcowboy
Yeah, well, the Freudian stuff does bubble through, doesn’t it?
I always get a kick out of it when someone from one of the military branches speaks as if their procedures and ways of doing things are the same for all the services, and when someone else says “not necessarily” the response is “you ignorant person, you!”.
Scout
November 30th, 2010
5:35 pm
Paul:
There are people who experience “combat” in every one of the services including the Coast Guard. That can be from a plane, a ship, an artillery base, etc., etc.
But …… unless your job was to “close with and destroy the enemy” as infantry (eyeball to eyeball” it’s nothing near the same.
The former have experienced “combat” and we should honor that.
The latter were “warriors” in the purest sense of the word.
Paul
November 30th, 2010
5:36 pm
jewcowboy
I once observed to some guys who happened to be senior field grade officers that, given that most sexual exploitation offenses are about power, and given many had seen their contemporaries disciplined for using their positions of power to intimidate others for sexual favors, that maybe their opposition to gays openly serving was the realization some day a senior gay officer just might put the moves on them, just as straight officers had done for so long?
Needless to say, the conversation became a bit… strained.
Hey!! Golly gee, I know something else about the military!
And USMC Dawg must’ve missed my post about how men walking around in patent leather shoes or knee-high boots with puffy leg trousers strikes some people as stereotypically gay -
TnGelding
November 30th, 2010
5:37 pm
Wouldn’t it be better to wait until most of the troops have been withdrawn from Iraq and Afghanistan so the ones that feel deeply against it can seek a discharge without upsetting requirements?
Paul
November 30th, 2010
5:38 pm
Scout
I’d kinda put anyone who’s getting shot at and who’s part of a system that shoots back as having experienced combat. I see your one-on-one point, but I think it a matter of degree.
@@
November 30th, 2010
5:38 pm
That’s twice today you’ve tried to bait me, are you starved for attention?
Bosch was keeping count? I wasn’t…can’t even recall the first.
Taxpayer:
I used Bosch’s post to launch a frontal assault on Bosch. Bosch, on the other hand, likes to hide behind cowboy’s skirt.
Don’t take ^^^ that personally, cowboy. I’m pretty sure you don’t wear skirts.
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
5:40 pm
Oh my Gosh, you guys are taking it a little far aren’t you.
I stated an opinion from my experience and then you lashed out at me as homophobic.
And then you through in that you are all so intelligent, etc.
Unbelievable. All I did was state an opinion that you didn’t like. I told you my brother was gay and I have gay friends as well. But I don’t think they should be waving the Gay Flag in the Marine Corps.
md
November 30th, 2010
5:41 pm
“I was just pointing out that pre-existing condition doesn’t just mean waiting until you get sick and then buying insurance.”
Unfortunately, pre-existing condition means anything on your medical record since birth……….and there in lies the problem.
sally
November 30th, 2010
5:42 pm
Perhaps, if gay soldiers could have served openly in ‘Nam we wouldn’t have had our arses handed to us…
AmVet
November 30th, 2010
5:42 pm
Seventeen years on and some are STILL…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2VjPPuias1k
Logical Dude
November 30th, 2010
5:42 pm
TnGelding says “Wouldn’t it be better to wait until most of the troops have been withdrawn from Iraq and Afghanistan so the ones that feel deeply against it can seek a discharge without upsetting requirements?”
Nope. Another edition of simple answers to simple questions.
Scout
November 30th, 2010
5:44 pm
Paul:
You are correct …….. and it’s a “lot” of degree.
Scout
November 30th, 2010
5:46 pm
While we’re at it:
Should an openly gay police officer (or TSA employee) be allowed to search a person of the same sex?
RW-(the original)
November 30th, 2010
5:48 pm
Wouldn’t it be better to wait until most of the troops have been withdrawn from Iraq and Afghanistan so the ones that feel deeply against it can seek a discharge without upsetting requirements?
Then the excuse would be that we can’t do it because the then current wars in Iran and North Korea would make it a bad idea. The military has a long history of getting unpopular orders and making them work so to whatever extent this is unpopular it’s just too bad. DADT is almost by definition an excuse to kick the can down the road and the bridge out sign is now in view.
Besides, I’d feel a lot better if gay soldiers were being assimilated rather than stuck in front of a computer with classified document access and a stack of CD-RWs….alledgedly.
Logical Dude
November 30th, 2010
5:48 pm
USMC Dawg says: “But I don’t think they should be waving the Gay Flag in the Marine Corps.”
And guess what? They won’t be! They’ll be another Marine that “just happens to be gay” just like the other Marine that “just happens to have red hair” or “just happens to be hispanic”.
Yes, there will be the few who’ve never seen a gay person before, and being brought up to hate gays, may lash out at the Marine that “just happens to be gay”. For most other Marines, it’s about being American. It’s the few that still harbor bias that are worrisome, not the gays themselves because the gays are already there.
Logical Dude
November 30th, 2010
5:49 pm
Scout says “Should an openly gay police officer (or TSA employee) be allowed to search a person of the same sex?”
Yes. Another edition of simple answers to simple questions.
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
5:49 pm
SCOUT
I’d rather have an openly gay one searching me than a closeted one…of course I don’t see what that has to do with the price of eggs in Funkiang. You straight folks slay me with this preconceived notion that we’re just waiting for the chance to cop a feel…talk about ego run wild…
Ragnar Danneskjöld
November 30th, 2010
5:49 pm
Everyone interested in the topic ought to take the time to parse the data. While the conclusions focus on the numbers of soldiers who are not particularly opposed to termination of DADT – not inherently invalid, although I despise absence of negative proof as a basis for action – one set of numbers that ought to give everyone pause are those across-the-board numbers who believe homosexuals bring any value to the military – as close to zero as it can be. There needs to be a really good sales job if this integration is going to work.
RW-(the original)
November 30th, 2010
5:50 pm
Damn, I went to all that trouble and the answer was just “nope”???
Paul
November 30th, 2010
5:50 pm
USMC Dawg
I didn’t see your comments as homophobic (well… most of them) but think your descriptions such as “wave the gay flag” a bit hyperbolic. I took your essential point to be combat effectiveness in land-based units would be degraded. The Commandant of the Marine Corps stated essentially the same view. However, when the Chairman of the JCS and the SecDef think such concerns are made out to be more than they are, and when they express, as the Marine Lt Col did, that they would work extra hard to set the example for the other services, well, I come down on the side of giving the Lt Col and the Corps a chance to prove themselves.
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
5:51 pm
Logical dude,
Who has never seen a gay person before? That sounds pretty condescending.
It’s not about being Gay. Do we mix men and women… and why not?
RW-(the original)
November 30th, 2010
5:52 pm
The TSA just needs to hire a bunch of really hot gropers and let us take our pick. Problem solved.
Paul
November 30th, 2010
5:53 pm
’cause USMC Dawg, doesn’t opposing the Chairman and SecDef on this mean some Marines think they’ll be given a tasking they can’t execute?
Ragnar Danneskjöld
November 30th, 2010
5:53 pm
Dear USMC Dawg @ 5:51, with that pithy ending argument to express perfectly why the sexual integration has been a mixed result, at best. I’m thinking that will have to be the template.
Adam
November 30th, 2010
5:54 pm
everyday American – lets see if the Democrats play to their base or to the majority of the country with Obamacare…..oh, we already know that answer…
Wow. Way to COMPLETELY miss the point. That misdirection tactic failed miserably.
Keep up the good fight! – How many sides can McCain flip to on DADT?
Granny Godzilla – I wonder about McCain and DADT. The embarrassing floppety flippety behavior….What’s really driving his opposition?
I think it’s funny now that he’s calling DADT a “working” tactic and that it’s something that was promised by an inexperienced president.
There you have it, he is against it because Obama promised to repeal it. It’s all about making Obama a one term president.
Ugh, no way am I reading through all 5 pages. Really though, what else needs to be said while still staying on topic?
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
5:55 pm
‘It’s not about being Gay. Do we mix men and women… and why not?”
Oy! So we’re a third and fourth gender?????
Hillbilly Deluxe
November 30th, 2010
5:56 pm
I don’t know if there was a TSA then, but I once got patted down in an airport by a female officer. She seemed to restrain herself quite well, even given that I’m as handsome, as I am.
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
5:56 pm
Paul,
I think what you missed is that while the Marine Corps will implement what they are told to, they will not be as effective. This is a political move from the left and the Gay community to “shove” their Gayness down everyone’s throats. I even Gay friendswho hate when other gays either fly the flag or draw attention to themselves for being gay. That’s all i am saying.
I believe that DADT will be done away with eventually. I personally like gay people, they are you and me (to a degree:-)
RW-(the original)
November 30th, 2010
5:57 pm
So we’re a third and fourth gender
And you thought dealing with whether it was a choice or not was a tough one.
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
5:58 pm
“Oy! So we’re a third and fourth gender?????”
Stop being so insecure Joseph, you know what I meant.
Ragnar Danneskjöld
November 30th, 2010
6:00 pm
I think all of us pro-military types can see hundreds of jobs homosexuals could perform in the military without harming unit cohesion. However, there are also hundreds of units performing jobs – arguably the most important ones – that could be gravely damaged by premature integration.
Back lines jobs – much of supply, much of intelligence – have no particular “unit cohesion” issues. Those are, admittedly, viewed as the second-class work in the military. I proposed the “pansy division” not entirely tongue-in-cheek. With our best ground fighters, words mean nothing, and actions mean everything; we need to give homosexuals a chance to prove their capacity without harming the unit cohesion of our regular forces.
Keep up the good fight!
November 30th, 2010
6:01 pm
Dawg…again your comment fail to address reality.
Do we mix men and women… and why not? Reality…we already mix homosexual and heterosexual men…we just tell them not to “tell.” Seems it has worked. The DADT issue is NOT about allowing gay men and women in the military. They are already there. The issue is what happens if there is a “tell”. The many many gay men and women that have served bravely and proudly, have earned numerous medals, have been in combat situations and have been extensively trained at taxpayer cost should be drummed out when there is a “tell.”
And the best you can do is say that somehow the knowledge of their sexual preference would NOW destroy the “espirit”…..
The report states, however, that of the 69 percent of service members who say they have knowingly worked with a gay or lesbian person, 92 percent stated that their unit’s “ability to work together” was “very good,” “good” or “neither good nor poor.”
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
6:01 pm
DAWG
Me? Insecure? Not in this lifetime! Seriously, what DO you mean?
RW
I want a lesbian to pat me down…no second guessing there!
md
November 30th, 2010
6:02 pm
Scout says “Should an openly gay police officer (or TSA employee) be allowed to search a person of the same sex?”
Actually, the one being patted down should have the option……..I may very well prefer a female vs a male, yet someone else’s preference is forced on me………..
Logical Dude
November 30th, 2010
6:03 pm
USMC Dawg: “Who has never seen a gay person before? That sounds pretty condescending”
It wasn’t meant to be. There are a great many who enlist from poor rural communities where homosexuality is so suppressed, and the religious environment so restrictive, that there are bound to be a few who have never knowingly met a gay person. Sure, they hear from the preacher how terrible a sin it is, and it’s an abomination and all. That’s how some people grow up.
When was the first person you met who was openly gay? (meaning, high school, college, first day at boot camp, etc)
Alas, the overwhelming majority of those who enlist really don’t care if someone is homosexual. Which is why letting gays serve openly is really going to be a collective yawn.
Paul
November 30th, 2010
6:03 pm
USMC Dawg
“I think what you missed is that while the Marine Corps will implement what they are told to, they will not be as effective”
I thought that’s what I said I thought your position was? And why I thought the Corps could be just as effective?
Y’know, there’ve been some in the Army who’ve maintained the Corps is an anachronism, served its purpose once, but in today’s environment the Army could just as easily perform the missions. If this becomes an issue, that the Army can forge ahead and retain effectiveness while the Corps can’t, that’ll just provide ammunition to those who say if the Corps can’t keep up, maybe it’s time to retire it and transfer the responsibilities to the Army.
On the issue of shoving their lifestyles down their throats, I’ve frankly been more disgusted with hetero guys (and this was before workplace harassment laws largely did away with it) who would shove their hetero exploits down eveyone’s throats than the gay people who went about their business in a professional manner.
Scout
November 30th, 2010
6:04 pm
Logical Dude:
You are not being logical.
1) Straight men are “attracted” to women even though they don’t want to grope all of them (especially the ugly ones). Therefore, they are not allowed to search them.
Gay men are “attracted” to men even though they don’t want to grope all of them. Therefore, they should not be allowed to search them.
Now, if you don’t agree with the above then #1 should also be changed. “That” would be logical.
Del
November 30th, 2010
6:04 pm
USMC DAWG@4:41, you can relate to this but just a question for our liberal friends who didn’t serve. Within the military units insults are throwing out most often in a joking manner but sometimes in a hostile manner. They can become quite personal even when joking. It’s unacceptable within the unwritten culture for a subordinate to go up the chain and register a complaint that they’ve been personally insulted by a fellow soldier because you’re expected to handle those issues yourself. I’m wondering what disciplinary provisions if any that may be instituted for handling personal insults that may and probably will not infrequently be directed at a homosexual military member. Will some soldier, sailor, airman whose a homosexual and on the receiving end of insults commit suicide because of it, or write his or her congressman and by doing so, launch congressional hearings and investigations that result in demands for more legislation and oversight of military policy. I’m wondering if the unintended consequence of repealing DADT, which I believe is good legislation, might open up a can of worms that could be extremely damaging to our national security? And for what purpose beyond political vote pandering.
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
6:04 pm
Listen, I know of gay friends and/or colleagues thatare as good or better, but we are talking about an institution that we have to have some common denominators.
There is a reason why women are not included in the Draft. Does that mean that there are no women that can kick ass and go to war? heck no. but we have to have common denominators. If we drafted ALL women, would that fly? That’s what I thought.
carlosgvv
November 30th, 2010
6:06 pm
I saw a report on PVT Manning today. He is the person who is accused of giving Wikileak all those documents. He is also gay and was constantly being harrased and bullied by other soldiers. Maybe the military is not the best place to carry out social experiments. You have to see things as they really are and not necessarly as you would like them to be.
robert
November 30th, 2010
6:07 pm
I’ve had a few fingers male&female up my tush for pre-op and physicals over the past couple of years and could care less if a homo/hetero did the deed as long as they was gentle…
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
6:07 pm
USMC
The Israelis draft everybody and works pretty well for them….
RW-(the original)
November 30th, 2010
6:08 pm
I want a lesbian to pat me down
Don’t we all….
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
6:09 pm
Del @ 6:04 You are spot on.
If a straight Marine gets in a fight with a Gay Marine and says the word “Fag”, are we going to apply the HATE crime laws against that person?
Listen, men are less effective right now around women in the military.
They walk around on egg shells because a woman can say a man “looked” at her “funny” and the man gets “slammed” with sexual harassment. His career goes straight down the drain.
@@
November 30th, 2010
6:09 pm
Will the transgendered recruits get to choose from two different uniforms? An occasional skirt and then the trousers when the mood strikes?
schnirt
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
6:11 pm
The Israelis draft everybody and works pretty well for them….
Josef, we are not Israel and they HAVE to because they are so small.
We live in a litigious society and have different challenges than Israel.
If your friend jumped off a mountain, would you? That’s what I thought.
Logical Dude
November 30th, 2010
6:11 pm
carlosgvv says ‘I saw a report on PVT Manning today. He is the person who is accused of giving Wikileak all those documents. He is also gay and was constantly being harrased and bullied by other soldiers”
First I’ve heard of it, can you provide a cite? Thanks!
(but then, I don’t always keep up with every news item)
Jay
November 30th, 2010
6:11 pm
USMC, when you cite your military experience in arguing that ending DADT will make combat units less effective, you then have to explain why others with similar or greater experience believe otherwise. The implication that you’ve tried to draw that those with firsthand knowledge agree with you while those without firsthand knowledge disagree is plainly false.
For example, one of the two main co-authors of the study is Gen. Carter F. Ham. He joined the 82nd Airborne as an enlisted man and rose up to the rank of four-star.
“I’m not just a co-chair, I’m a commander, so if this [policy] changes, I’ve got to do this,” Ham told The Washington Post. “I can’t put my signature on something that’s contrary to what I think. If I didn’t believe what’s in that report, I wouldn’t have signed it.”
On another point, by using insults such as “pansy” and citing this absolute baloney about gay flags, etc., you do lead your readers to believe that your true underlying motivation re: DADT has nothing to do with a logical assessment of unit effectiveness and a lot to do with what’s between your own two ears.
Lieutenant Dan
November 30th, 2010
6:12 pm
Too bad Eve had to tempt Adam and screw it up, I’d love to see a bunch of naked marines in a tickle pile giving as good as they get.
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
6:13 pm
RW
You’re just too weird! What is it with straight men and lesbians? Or straight women and f*ggots? I don’t get it…like shall seek like according to the Good Book!
Scout
November 30th, 2010
6:14 pm
md @ 6:02
Then all gays/lesbians must be identified so your choice can be implemented.
@@
November 30th, 2010
6:14 pm
Whenever I fly out of Vallapraiso in Ft. Walton, I get a pat down. Everytime…without fail. It’s a small regional airport (3? 5? gates). I’m gonna start noticing if the TSA who pats me down is the same woman?
Something that I’m not aware of could be going on.
Logical Dude
November 30th, 2010
6:15 pm
Del says “Within the military units insults are throwing out most often in a joking manner but sometimes in a hostile manner”
And there is already a protocol in place for when things get out of hand. I’m sure the report above also has extra protocols that can be put in place for these instances. Again, they expected this, and the findings are that the issues will be few and far between.
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
6:17 pm
USMC
@ 6:11
You are right that they HAVE to…we can afford the luxury of bigotry, prejudice, bias and what have you…
And Israel is NOT litigious…? Oooooh, so many lines, so little time…
Logical Dude
November 30th, 2010
6:17 pm
josef nix asks: What is it with straight men and lesbians?
It’s the hope that one of them is bi and the possibility of a threesome. (another edition of simple answers to simple questions) LOL
AmVet
November 30th, 2010
6:18 pm
The mental masturbation and gymnastics that some of you go through on this matter is truly remarkable.
I think you stuck-in-the-1950s reactionaries should impanel a panel that would then impanel a second panel that would then select the final panel to consider whether or not just to forget the entire reason for the impaneling.
That should take another seventeen years or so…
Keep up the good fight!
November 30th, 2010
6:20 pm
Listen, men are less effective right now around women in the military
In Kam’s absence, I help……. there’s your sign.
They walk around on egg shells because a woman can say a man “looked” at her “funny” and the man gets “slammed” with sexual harassment. His career goes straight down the drain
And the bullcrap victimization award goes too…….(arf, arf). The same unsupported claims are made in the corporate world about women, race, etc……
@@
November 30th, 2010
6:21 pm
josef:
What is it with straight men and lesbians? Or straight women and f*ggots?
I’ve given that question a lot of thought. We can enjoy the opposite sex without fear of rejection or a need to play silly games. We don’t have to be on (no pun intended).
Ironic, ain’t it?
Paul
November 30th, 2010
6:21 pm
josef
“The Israelis draft everybody and works pretty well for them….”
I was wondering when that would come up –
USMC Dawg
“Josef, we are not Israel and they HAVE to because they are so small.”
Size does matter is the final argument?!!?
Sorry… too good to leave alone…
@@
“Whenever I fly out of Vallapraiso in Ft. Walton, I get a pat down. Everytime…”
It’s the stilettos, @@ -
fred
November 30th, 2010
6:21 pm
How ’bout different unit for all our phobia’s
RW-(the original)
November 30th, 2010
6:22 pm
josef,
I think it’s more the prison shower scene types I’m thinking of. Not the ones with the same five letter name that were so prevalent at early Melissa Ethridge shows. I’d put some of them on the front lines right now, whether it was war or football.
@@
November 30th, 2010
6:23 pm
And then there’s Logical Dude’s answer.
Men can be both participant and spectator. The ultimate in sports.
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
6:26 pm
Jay,
Your condescending Pseudo-intellctualism is charming.
There will always be LOTS of differing opinions from mine. I’m ok with that. And no, I don’t need to explain anyone elses opinions. I disagree with you there.
But don’t pretend to know what you are talking about when it comes to the military. You clearly don’t.
You are merely cutting and pasting from Huffington Post EVERYDAY.
And I notice that you don’t police the Lib crowd on their insults.
I don’t want to be banned from your blog, so i won’t use the word pansy anymore.
I agree to disagree with you. I like you. I deplore your politics.
But It is your blog and I want to respect your rules. Is the word “pansy” that offensive?
Logical Dude
November 30th, 2010
6:28 pm
USMC Dawg asks: Is the word “pansy” that offensive?
I like “Namby Pamby” like Gunny Ermey says in the Geico commercial.
Del
November 30th, 2010
6:28 pm
Logical Dude says “Again, they expected this, and the findings are that issues will be few and far between.” That’s illogical because “they” can’t foresee all of the unintended consequences simply from a survey that was sent out to members of the military. Most of them weren’t even returned. The issue is far too complex and Gates even alluded to the fact that he, himself had concerns. This Pentagon survey is going to be riddled in Congress.
Scout
November 30th, 2010
6:28 pm
Jay ……. seriously:
1) Do you know if the report was broken down by service branch and/or military occupational specialty?
2) If a women going through an airport checkpoint has “the right” NOT to be searched by a man, doesn’t a straight man have the same right regarding a gay man?
dale
November 30th, 2010
6:28 pm
Only real American heteros can get a hard-on for soldiering.
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
6:28 pm
Paul at 6:21
Now that was funny.
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
6:28 pm
Okay, ask a question, get an answer (or several!)
But I still have trouble understanding this straight male thing about gay men wanting a piece…I’m like Walter and the 72 virgins…shoot, give me somebody who knows what they’re doing!
md
November 30th, 2010
6:29 pm
“We can enjoy the opposite sex without fear of rejection……..”
I can tell you didn’t grow up as an insecure young boy when it was “tradition” for the boy to do all the asking……………
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
6:29 pm
“I like “Namby Pamby” like Gunny Ermey says in the Geico commercial”
Logical Dude,
We are finally in agreement on something.
Scout
November 30th, 2010
6:30 pm
Excuse me: “woman”
Bruno
November 30th, 2010
6:30 pm
josef–A musical salute for your celebration today:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVW9sOsXAjU
Paul
November 30th, 2010
6:33 pm
USMC Dawg
“But don’t pretend to know what you are talking about when it comes to the military.”
You tend to toss that out when others disagree. Didn’t the military have a saying about ASS-uming?
Seems to me your perspective and knowledge isn’t about “the military.” It’s about a small part of the military – The Marine Corps – as well as a restricted part of that, of a time that’s evidently passed by.
So it may be more accurate for you to say (assuming you have a basis in knowledge) “you clearly don’t know about the Marine Corps, the small unit part, circa 1980 (or whenever).
sally
November 30th, 2010
6:35 pm
There aren’t any atheists in foxholes because they are smart enough not to be tricked into fighting dumb wars over material things and realize gawd like santa is mythology.
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
6:35 pm
Any of you guys need a visual of the flag waiving I am refering to?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/11/30/dadt-repeal-endorsed-in-p_n_789916.html
That is all I was refering to.
Jay
November 30th, 2010
6:35 pm
Scout:
1.) Yes, it does. There’s a link to the report itself in my post, so you can see for yourself.
2.) I learned long ago not to be lured down one of your rabbit holes.
Paul
November 30th, 2010
6:36 pm
josef nix
“But I still have trouble understanding this straight male thing about gay men wanting a piece”
I think it has something to do with the straight male condition.
http://tinyurl.com/2wj57ku
TGT
November 30th, 2010
6:37 pm
What a shame that our military is being used as a tool to legitimize homosexual behavior.
“George Washington, the nation’s first Commander-in-Chief, held a strong opinion on this subject and gave a clear statement of his views on it in his general orders for March 14, 1778:
At a General Court Martial whereof Colo. Tupper was President (10th March 1778), Lieutt. Enslin of Colo. Malcom’s Regiment [was] tried for attempting to commit sodomy, with John Monhort a soldier; Secondly, For Perjury in swearing to false accounts, [he was] found guilty of the charges exhibited against him, being breaches of 5th. Article 18th. Section of the Articles of War and [we] do sentence him to be dismiss’d [from] the service with infamy. His Excellency the Commander in Chief approves the sentence and with abhorrence and detestation of such infamous crimes orders Lieutt. Enslin to be drummed out of camp tomorrow morning by all the drummers and fifers in the Army never to return; The drummers and fifers [are] to attend on the Grand Parade at Guard mounting for that Purpose.
General Washington held a clear understanding of the rules for order and discipline, and as the original Commander-in-Chief, he was the first not only to forbid, but even to punish, homosexuals in the military…
It can be safely said that the attitude of the Founders on the subject of homosexuality was precisely that given by William Blackstone in his Commentaries on the Laws–the basis of legal jurisprudence in America and heartily endorsed by numbers of significant Founders. In addressing sodomy (homosexuality), he found the subject so reprehensible that he was ashamed even to discuss it. Nonetheless, he noted:
What has been here observed . . . [the fact that the punishment fit the crime] ought to be the more clear in proportion as the crime is the more detestable, may be applied to another offence of a still deeper malignity; the infamous crime against nature committed either with man or beast. A crime which ought to be strictly and impartially proved and then as strictly and impartially punished. . . .
I will not act so disagreeable part to my readers as well as myself as to dwell any longer upon a subject the very mention of which is a disgrace to human nature [sodomy]. It will be more eligible to imitate in this respect the delicacy of our English law which treats it in its very indictments as a crime not fit to be named; “peccatum illud horribile, inter christianos non nominandum” (that horrible crime not to be named among Christians). A taciturnity observed likewise by the edict of Constantius and Constans: “ubi scelus est id, quod non proficit scire, jubemus insurgere leges, armari jura gladio ultore, ut exquisitis poenis subdantur infames, qui sunt, vel qui futuri sunt, rei” (where that crime is found, which is unfit even to know, we command the law to arise armed with an avenging sword that the infamous men who are, or shall in future be guilty of it, may undergo the most severe punishments).
Because of the nature of the crime, the penalties for the act of sodomy were often severe. For example, Thomas Jefferson indicated that in his home state of Virginia, “dismemberment” of the offensive organ was the penalty for sodomy. In fact, Jefferson himself authored a bill penalizing sodomy by castration.”
But what do men–excuse me, bigots–like Washington, Jefferson, and Blackstone know?
md
November 30th, 2010
6:38 pm
Well, Sally just went on the naughty list……….one less stop this year.
Jay
November 30th, 2010
6:38 pm
USMC, how can I cut and paste from a site I almost never visit?
And if you have evidence to the contrary — after all, cutting and pasting ought to be easy to track, using Google — go ahead and post it to prove me wrong.
Otherwise, stop making accusations that you have no hope of backing up.
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
6:39 pm
Paul@ 6:33
“Seems to me……..”?
Paul, I am noticing a trend in your posts.
When you don’t have the experience to know something you use phrases like this.
“Seems to me….”
just saying
Jay
November 30th, 2010
6:40 pm
and no, “pansy” is not by any means a word that will get you banned. That wasn’t the point at all.
Scout
November 30th, 2010
6:40 pm
Jay:
1) Thank you
2) The civil suits are already out there on this subject. We’ll see.
md
November 30th, 2010
6:40 pm
“I think it has something to do with the straight male condition.”
Boy, I need to get me one of those mirrors in your link……….mine is way too honest.
Del
November 30th, 2010
6:41 pm
Jay,
Since you read the report you must have noted the concern Gates shared with military chiefs regarding resistance within the “Combat Arms”.
TaxPayer
November 30th, 2010
6:42 pm
If we’d just go ahead and privatize the military, then this becomes a moot issue. For example, Hessians-R-US Inc., a limited reliability corporation based in Delaware and thus subject to US antidiscriminatory law has no issues with employment of persons or non-persons of any race, creed, color, sex, sexual preference, etc., so long as one meets the demanding physical requirements that may or may not apply to one’s position and all positions are negotiable but only during the semi-bi-annual open enrollment period. So you see, government jobs just create far too many hassles whereas private industry eliminates said hassles.
AmVet
November 30th, 2010
6:42 pm
Bruno, that same imitable trio joined up with their (sometimes long lost) fourth partner…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S9cHkX5Ng2o
Paul
November 30th, 2010
6:42 pm
TGT
“Lieutt. Enslin of Colo. Malcom’s Regiment [was] tried for attempting to commit sodomy, with John Monhort a soldier;”
So General Washington was aghast that a commissioned officer would sexually harass an enlisted person? And the officer was drummed out of the service? Good!
Too bad we can’t go back to those standards. Now, when senior officers sexually harass their subordinates into granting sexual favors, the officers are told to retire and collect their pensions.
Jay
November 30th, 2010
6:44 pm
OK, TGT, now post what Washington did to one of his slaves when he or she tried to escape.
And then tell us about his reaction to the idea of women — WOMEN!!?? — getting to vote.
Paul
November 30th, 2010
6:45 pm
USMC Dawg
That’s one interpretation of ’seems to me.” Another is, what I’m expressing is an opinion, open to revision, and that to write in a declarative style on such matters is, to me, indicative of being just a bit too full of oneself.
md
November 30th, 2010
6:46 pm
“Most Democrats maintain that earmarks are a legitimate way to direct taxpayer money to their constituents. ”
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20101130/ap_on_bi_ge/us_senate_earmark_ban
Well of course……how else would they be able to buy votes………..
Jay
November 30th, 2010
6:46 pm
I did, Del. He made that clear, as did the report.
They also made it clear that the problem could and would be handled.
Scout
November 30th, 2010
6:46 pm
Well, I must leave you to your debate for the evening.
No doubt, at some point “Don’t Assk, Don’t Tail” will go down the tube (no pun intended).
Our military will be less than it could be (whatever that is).
The country will follow.
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
6:47 pm
Lighten up Frances….
I apologize for accusing you of cutting and pasting.
I just notice EVERYDAY that the topics you cover are prominantly displayed on Huffington Post. (must be coincidence)
But I take back my comment on cutting and pasting. I was wrong to say that. You are correct I can’t prove that.
I must have touched a nerve when I told you that you don’t know about the military, didn’t I?
I will log off for the night. Sorry for rubbing you the wrong way.
Doggone/GA
November 30th, 2010
6:47 pm
“Do we mix men and women… and why not?”
Because men can’t be trusted
Bruno
November 30th, 2010
6:47 pm
Am–Great on-topic choice @ 5:42. I’m sure there’s got to ba a TR song or two that fit the occasion.
One more for josef:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-d5x-CiTUs
Paul
November 30th, 2010
6:48 pm
USMC Dawg
“When you don’t have the experience to know something ”
There you go ASS-uming again….
And don’t bother to ask personal questions. If you’ve been around for a while you know my opinion – blogs are about ideas, independent of background or position. Personal experience cited as an absolute, especially when the experience is at a very, very restricted level in a large organization, is misleading.
At least, that’s how it seems to me -
ferret face
November 30th, 2010
6:48 pm
klinger wasn’t gay, but i have my suspicions about radar
@@
November 30th, 2010
6:49 pm
md:
I was talking about guys. If someone (seemingly decent) asked me out, I went…irrespective of his looks, height, social awkwardness. If he was brave enough to put himself out there, I could be equally as brave. The best gifts don’t always come in beautifully wrapped packages.
All it took to win me over was a good sense of humor with a bit of rebelliousness. A winning combination. My husband has both and no hair.
Bruno
November 30th, 2010
6:50 pm
“Because men can’t be trusted”
Totally agree, Doggone. The rate of assault on women soldiers is unacceptable to me.
Any opinion about women being allowed in men’s locker rooms while the men are showering/changing, but not vice versa?? Big double standard in my book.
Keep up the good fight!
November 30th, 2010
6:50 pm
Is it just me. When I see predictions of “the country will follow” it just reads “The sky is falling, the sky is falling.”
Keep up the good fight!
November 30th, 2010
6:52 pm
rubbing you the wrong way — trying to ignore the irony….trying…..
ferret face
November 30th, 2010
6:54 pm
colonel hogan was a freak betwixt the sheets
Jay
November 30th, 2010
6:54 pm
No, USMC, you didn’t touch a nerve with that claim. It’s a nonsense, irrelevant argument, deployed because you don’t have a better one.
Would you tell Secretary Gates or General Ham or Admiral Mullen, all of whom share my viewpoint on this, that they too don’t know anything about the military? Clearly not. You’re simply trying to put the rest of us on the defensive with that approach, and sorry, I’m not buying it.
RW-(the original)
November 30th, 2010
6:55 pm
Is Radar the only character that was played by the same person in the movie and TV show versions of MASH?
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
6:55 pm
PAUL
That pretty much was what I thought…’course I stay away from mirrors, myself…lies and distortions, I tell you…
Bruno
Thanks…not exactly celebrating…we’ll see what happens…
md
November 30th, 2010
6:56 pm
“If someone (seemingly decent) asked me out, I went…irrespective of his looks, height, social awkwardness. If he was brave enough to put himself out there, I could be equally as brave.”
Too bad you weren’t at my school……………….
Rejection was never fun, and too often is taken personal when in actuality, it may not be. Class reunions are good for finding out all the scoop many years later………..too bad there are no do-overs, but on the other hand…
Jay
November 30th, 2010
6:57 pm
By the way, since we seem to be veering into TV here, has anybody else watched that show “Raising Hope”? I think it’s hysterical, and I’m not a big fan of TV shows in general.
BADA BING
November 30th, 2010
6:59 pm
I am just going to put these silly bullets in my pocket. This ammo belt is just so busy!
Doggone/GA
November 30th, 2010
6:59 pm
“Any opinion about women being allowed in men’s locker rooms while the men are showering/changing, but not vice versa?? Big double standard in my book”
Nope, no opinion. I think you’re talking about, in particular, women reporters. If the men don’t mind and the reporter doesn’t mind, what’s the issue? If they were nurses would you even have to ask?
Mick
November 30th, 2010
7:00 pm
Everything these days cost. The greatest value that still survives in this torn up country is the freedom of thoughts and idea’s. Thirty percent is a respectable number even though it’s in the minority. Those people have the right to disagree with a policy without feeling tormented. Today it’s them but tomorrow, it may be you…
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
7:01 pm
BRUNO
Love that Ritchie Havens…that man is amazing….
Paul
November 30th, 2010
7:01 pm
josef nix 6:55
I know what you mean. All my mirrors are defective, too. Like in the cartoon, ‘cept I’m the buff guy looking in and the reflection is that other thing -
Dave R.
November 30th, 2010
7:01 pm
267 pages and 10 months study to justify a change in policy, such change being fully protected under the Constitution they arguably fight for . . .
That true equality has to be studied at all is a black mark against the military and the government that supports it.
BADA BING
November 30th, 2010
7:01 pm
Quartermaster, do you have these combat boots in an open toe?
Paul
November 30th, 2010
7:02 pm
Jay
Hadn’t heard of it (this blog undercuts my self discipline so I have to get up way early and sometimes go in way late to make up work) but I’ll but it on my record schedule. Thanks -
Paul
November 30th, 2010
7:03 pm
Bada Bing
No, but he has some nice patent leather for military men’s everyday wear –
Okay… I’ve beat that one to death -
Dave R.
November 30th, 2010
7:05 pm
Jay, best new show this year (comedy) is William Shatner’s “$#*! my Dad says”. “Hot in Cleveland” on TVLand is also very funny.
TaxPayer
November 30th, 2010
7:05 pm
Raising Hope is good comic relief. It has My Name is Earl easily beat.
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
7:05 pm
JAY
Ain’t that show on Fox?
I’d watch Cloris Leachmann in a dog food commercial, though!
Not exactly hooked on it yet…it’s got promise…good (and funny) writing…
Bruno
November 30th, 2010
7:05 pm
AmVet–Back at ya’ with my two favorite songs from the Aqualung album:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpkRdoXxs20
Had a great T-Day in Atlanta, one of the best yet. On Friday we ate at a great bar/restaurant in Vinings. I can’t recall the name right now, but the lobster bisque and broiled scallops were great. Plus the steak and dessert I scavenged from my friend’s plates. I have no pride when it comes to begging for food……
Del
November 30th, 2010
7:06 pm
Jay,
I wonder how it’s clear…I guess that will be made clear in the congressional debates.
BADA BING
November 30th, 2010
7:06 pm
What do you call a lesbian in fatiques? Militia Etheridge.
Mick
November 30th, 2010
7:08 pm
dave r
Boardwalk empire has had some good story lines….other than that, not much.
TGT
November 30th, 2010
7:10 pm
Jay: You mean this George Washington:
“Concerning (slavery) the path Washington desired to see (Virginia) choose, he emphatically declared:
I can only say that there is not a man living who wishes more sincerely than I do to see a plan adopted for the abolition of it [slavery]; but there is only one proper and effectual mode by which it can be accomplished, and that is by Legislative authority; and this, as far as my suffrage [vote and support] will go, shall never be wanting [lacking].
As Washington had pledged, he did provide his support and leadership in efforts to end the slave trade. For example, on July 18, 1774, the committee which Washington chaired in his own Fairfax County passed the following act:
Resolved, that it is the opinion of this meeting that during our present difficulties and distress, no slaves ought to be imported into any of the British colonies on this continent; and we take this opportunity of declaring our most earnest wishes to see an entire stop for ever put to such a wicked, cruel, and unnatural trade.
Having developed this position, Washington maintained it throughout his life and reaffirmed it often. For example, when General Marquis de Lafayette decided to buy a plantation in French Guiana for the purpose of freeing its slaves and placing them on the estate as tenants, Washington wrote Lafayette:
Your late purchase of an estate in the colony of Cayenne, with a view of emancipating the slaves on it, is a generous and noble proof of your humanity. Would to God a like spirit would diffuse itself generally into the minds of the people of this country, but I despair of seeing it. Some petitions were presented to the [Virginia] Assembly at its last session for the abolition of slavery, but they could scarcely obtain a reading.
…Not only did George Washington commit himself to caring for his slaves and to seeking a legal remedy by which they might be freed in his State but he also took the leadership in doing so on the national level. In fact, the first federal racial civil rights law in America was passed on August 7, 1789, with the endorsing signature of President George Washington.
That law, entitled “An Ordinance of the Territory of the United States Northwest of the River Ohio,” prohibited slavery in any new State that might seek to enter the Union. Consequently, slavery was prohibited in all the American territories held at the time; and it was because of this law, signed by President George Washington, that Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Minnesota, and Wisconsin all prohibited slavery.
Despite the slow but steady progress made in many parts of the nation, especially in the North, the laws in Virginia were designed to discourage and prevent the emancipation of slaves. The loophole which finally allowed Washington to circumvent Virginia law was by emancipating his slaves on his death, which he did.”
Hillbilly Deluxe
November 30th, 2010
7:10 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1ydFnA-H1M
md
November 30th, 2010
7:11 pm
Well, the misfits passed the Pigford scam bill………….more money we don’t have……..
“According to sworn testimony by John Boyd, President of the National Black Farmers Association, there are 18,000 black farmers. They could not all have been victims of discrimination. To date, there have been over 94,000 claims made.”
Bruno
November 30th, 2010
7:11 pm
Gotta run, but one for the band:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY5i4-rWh44
AmVet
November 30th, 2010
7:11 pm
Dave R, is that show fashioned after the book?
My son gave it to me a few months ago, and I literally LOLed repeatedly.
Very funny and immensely enjoyable; yet it has some really good lessons in it…
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
7:11 pm
DAVE R
“That true equality has to be studied at all is a black mark against the military and the government that supports it.”
My sentiments in a nutshell…
Dave R.
November 30th, 2010
7:11 pm
My problem is that I don’t get HBO, Mick. Too much money for very little entertainment in my view.
Hot-Lips Houlihan
November 30th, 2010
7:13 pm
The nurses in the army they haven’t tied the knot, but this one’s gonna try it with donald penobscott…
Jay
November 30th, 2010
7:14 pm
TGT, did he free the slaves under his own control?
No.
Everything else is commentary,
Dave R.
November 30th, 2010
7:15 pm
AmVet, from Wiki:
“It is based on the Twitter feed S#it My Dad Says, created by Justin Halpern and consisting of quotes from his father, Sam.”
Looks like it is. I hadn’t known about the Twitter feed until I looked it up. All I know is Shatner is as funny as it gets.
BADA BING
November 30th, 2010
7:15 pm
Yeah, let’m in. Those old VFW lodges need redecorating anyway.
md
November 30th, 2010
7:16 pm
“TGT, did he free the slaves under his own control?”
Sounds like Warren Buffet………..
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
7:16 pm
TGT
But…but…can’t put that chapter in the new history being written as we speak by Milan Kundera’s Professor Hubl’s replacements…pack your bags for the trip across the Desert of Organized Forgetting…
AmVet
November 30th, 2010
7:19 pm
Yep, that’s the one, Dave.
It is well worth the money if you ever see it in a bookstore.
And being a child of the 60s, I’ve always loved (most of) Shatner’s work.
*Especially* after this…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdBlZzuadLQ
Common Sense isn't very Common
November 30th, 2010
7:20 pm
Question? When a marine is wounded does he ask for a straight NAVAL CORPSMAN or just CORPSMAN.
AmVet
November 30th, 2010
7:21 pm
Warren Buffet has slaves?!
@@
November 30th, 2010
7:22 pm
BADA:
You’ve got a great sense of humor. Do YOU have hair?
Mick
November 30th, 2010
7:23 pm
dave r
Trust me, it burns me to pay it but with the tivo, the twelve bucks lets me program. Boardwalk empire intertwines the politics in atlantic city after prohabition becomes law of the land. What kind of congress was that? Anyway, pretty decent story telling with gratuitous violence laced in…not bad.
TGT
November 30th, 2010
7:24 pm
Pay attention Jay: “…the laws in Virginia were designed to discourage and prevent the emancipation of slaves. The loophole which finally allowed Washington to circumvent Virginia law was by emancipating his slaves on his death, which he did.”
Jay
November 30th, 2010
7:26 pm
And I don’t mean to imply that I would have done any better than Washington under the same circumstances. We are all trapped to a degree by the mindset of our times, and moral perfection is not an option granted any of us. The best we can do is stretch our contemporary mindset as far as possible and leave the world a better, more humane place.
Men such as Washington and Jefferson did that. But I just don’t think it’s legitimate to try to justify our own prejudices by citing theirs.
BADA BING
November 30th, 2010
7:26 pm
I have hair, but it is abandoning it’s post pretty quickly. I am glad I wore it long in my youth.
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
7:26 pm
TGT, JAY
Before condemning George Washington and the other slaveholders among the founding fathers, a review of the laws surrounding emancipation should be taken into consideration as well as the prevailing lines of thought in the time and place…
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
7:30 pm
JAY
@ 7:26
I had not read this post when I made my last comment…I will agree with much of what you said.
BADA BING
November 30th, 2010
7:31 pm
If you were alive at the time of Jefferson and Wasington and had the money, you would have had slaves, too. You would have worn a wig, and smelled as bad as everyone else. In short, you would have followed societal norms at the time. Things are not pretty in real life, grow up people.
Jay
November 30th, 2010
7:31 pm
Yes, TGT.
From the same Wikipedia article that you cite:
“Prior to 1782, Virginia law prohibited slave owners from emancipating slaves. The only exception being for “meritorious service” and only at the approval of the Governor and his council. This law was repealed by the 1782 law allowing slave emancipation by will or deed. Washington never manumitted any slaves by deed after the liberal 1782 law was passed, with the exception of his will.
Washington’s failure to act publicly upon his growing private misgivings about slavery during his lifetime is seen by some historians as a tragically missed opportunity. The major reason Washington did not emancipate his slaves after the 1782 law and prior to his death was because of the financial costs involved.”
Doggone/GA
November 30th, 2010
7:33 pm
Jay – I would add that it’s not fair to judge those men, at that time and in that place, by the moral norms they made possible (today) when they wrote and defended the Constitution…but which they knew they would never be able to meet in their own lifetimes.
Dave R.
November 30th, 2010
7:34 pm
AmVet, good one. How about his SNL skit, ‘Get a Life!”
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x930vt_william-shatner-snl-skit-get-a-life_fun
md
November 30th, 2010
7:35 pm
Always loved Shatner’s “gun control”….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0D78JtxmqI
Honu
November 30th, 2010
7:38 pm
AtAt @ 4:01p — your reason for posting the thong photo was??? Your and Scout’s heads are going to explode when DADT is finally repealed. And why do you and Josef always (I)nsert (S)tupid (H)ere in all of your conversations?
Dave R.
November 30th, 2010
7:38 pm
Mick, I just remember when HBO stood for Home Box Office. They have too much non-movie programming in my opinion. I used to watch some of their stuff when I traveled and was overnight in hotel rooms, and it didn’t do much for me.
md
November 30th, 2010
7:38 pm
You disappoint me Am, you go and rant about corps on a daily basis, and then have to ask if Buffet has slaves…………
But my post was in reference to walking the walk.
Jay
November 30th, 2010
7:40 pm
I agree, Doggone. I could never understand why prominent historians were so quick to claim that a great man such as Jefferson could never have consorted with Sally Hemings. I have great admiration for Jefferson, but of course he did. She was by all accounts beautiful, and he was a young widower. The claim that he was somehow above all that made no sense.
Dave R.
November 30th, 2010
7:41 pm
md, Denny Crane was one of the best characters on Boston Legal, and only Shatner could make him come alive.
The guy earned an Emmy award for that character as well.
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
7:41 pm
HONU
Why ISH? I usually use a smiley face when I’m being lighthearted so folks won’t take me too seriously on whatever it is I’m saying (necessary here I’ve learned the hard way), but @@ doesn’t like icons, so I put in ISH (insert smile here) out of deference to her preference…
Doggone/GA
November 30th, 2010
7:46 pm
“The claim that he was somehow above all that made no sense.”
It never did to me either…and she was his dead wife’s half-sister, and while legally a slave she was pale skinned. Not that that has anything to do with it, but socially – in his time – it was a more acceptable form of exploitation than if she had been dark. And he did take some responsibility for her children, to the best he could given the times and the social norms within which he lived.
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
7:47 pm
JAOn Sally Hemmings and Jefferson…why do we not concede that this was most probably a tender relationship between consenting adults, bound by the strictures of time and place…? It happened a lot. I had my own affairs with men who couldn’t given time and place be that idealistic version and, yes, even if it was kept “hidden,” it was still one of respect and dignity…
Doggone/GA
November 30th, 2010
7:49 pm
“why do we not concede that this was most probably a tender relationship between consenting adults, bound by the strictures of time and place”
Josef – it may have been consenting as far as was possible, but even for that time and place it was exploitative. She was, after all, a slave…and the children she bore were slaves. Jeffereson promised to free them when he died, and he did, but if you think that wasn’t a sword hanging over her head…you need to learn more about Mothers and their children.
Disgusted
November 30th, 2010
7:50 pm
In order to keep the goodies that so many like — like the pre-existing conditions, the insurance companies will have to be paid by the parts that everyone hates — the part about everybody having to have it.
The only reason for requiring everyone to be covered is that insurance relies on a spreading of the risk. Right now, the cost of health insurance is higher than it should be because young, healthy people who do not receive employer insurance coverage opt out, leaving an older, less healthy group among which to spread the risk. If those young, healthy people are required to have health insurance, the risk posed by a cancer patient or a person with some other dread disease is spread over a much larger pool, making the cost of that person miniscule in relation to the total pool. If anything, the mandatory coverage provision should even lower insurance costs.
If you cannot understand that concept, you have no business writing about the HC law and its provisions. In short, mandatory coverage is one reason that the insurance companies have been willing to accept the law, albeit grudgingly. If you remove that and then leave the ban on pre-existing conditions provisions in place, the insurance companies will be screaming bloody murder.
Jay
November 30th, 2010
7:50 pm
Oh, and Josef? Nice Kundera reference.
Dave R.
November 30th, 2010
7:51 pm
“I have great admiration for Jefferson, but of course he did.”
Jay the jury is still out on that count. It is just as likely that a brother or one of the brothers sons could have been responsible. Either way, I don’t discount the allegation, nor do I care if it is true or not. Unless you were there, “Of course he did” doesn’t cut it.
@@
November 30th, 2010
7:53 pm
Honu:
AtAt @ 4:01p — your reason for posting the thong photo was???
Because there are gay men who wear leather thongs in public?
Go back and read my initial post. I’m not opposed to the repeal. I do, however, predict there will be unintended consequences with which we’ll have to deal.
“Stupid”, Honu?
Being a bit judgmental without just cause, are you not?
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
7:53 pm
Doggone
And I think you are taking the term “exploitative” a bit far “even for that time and place” and judging it on our weltanschauung of today…I’ll go back to my own example…looking at some of those men in my life back then, you could make the same claim given our viewpoints 40 years down the line…
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
7:56 pm
JAY
Glad you like that one! I just finished rereading “The Book of Laughter and Forgetting” for the umpteenth time…
Doggone/GA
November 30th, 2010
7:57 pm
“And I think you are taking the term “exploitative” a bit far “even for that time and place” and judging it on our weltanschauung of today”
No, I’m not. Slavery is, and always was exploitive. Bring sex and children into it and even any true affection that might have existed doesn’t negate that it is inherently an exploitative relationship. And Jefferson knew it, but I choose to believe that he truly did have affection for her to the extent he could…and that he wrote “all men are created equal” because he knew from personal experience that while all of us are CREATED equal, we don’t live in a world where we ARE equal.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
7:59 pm
Sorry…I had to run out to vote and to go to the grocery store…then got home, put away the groceries and realized I forgot what I went to the grocery store to buy. Went back out to the grocery store and hit a freakin tv…27″ tv…wtf?!
Any way…
USMC Dawg,
“Oh my Gosh, you guys are taking it a little far aren’t you.
I stated an opinion from my experience and then you lashed out at me as homophobic.”
Let me see here:
“Uh Oh!!!! Here comes the “Nazi Gay Flag”!!!”
“They will start segregating themselves as being “Gay” Marines and wearing Rainbow attire, etc. because they are narcissistic.”
Others have handled it admirably, but here we go:
Yeah…all you did was state your opinion…poor thing is just misunderstood. Seems to me like you can dish a load of bs that you just can’t quite seem able to backup…and now you’re misunderstood.
And let’s be clear…the only person that used the word homophobic is you…but I guess you know yourself better than we do.
@@
November 30th, 2010
8:00 pm
RW, if you’re out there, is this the same Honu that used to frequent your blog?
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
8:02 pm
Scout,
“2) If a women going through an airport checkpoint has “the right” NOT to be searched by a man, doesn’t a straight man have the same right regarding a gay man?”
Oooo..oooo…let me guess…it has something to do with pedophilia and gay people? Am I close?
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
8:02 pm
Doggone
Using that same argument, and I will buy it for my purposes here, the same may be said for heterosexual relationships which are inherently exploitative…and “even any true affection that might have existed” doesn’t negate that…
md
November 30th, 2010
8:02 pm
“Bring sex and children into it and even any true affection that might have existed doesn’t negate that it is inherently an exploitative relationship.”
I’d have to say if it was “true affection”, then exploitation would be a moot point. It was what it was just as it is what it is as far as the environment goes.
@@
November 30th, 2010
8:02 pm
China is set to increase taxes on foreign companies Dec. 1.
Where will they go now?
BADA BING
November 30th, 2010
8:03 pm
Whiners, get over your hang up with discrimination. Old people are discriminated against, fat people, ugly people, poor people. These people don’t have support groups to guarantee their rights. I want to go out with Kate Beckensale and Jennifer Anniston, but I am not rich enough, young enough, or famous enough to attract them. Do I have to sue them or march in the streets for my right to date them. Reality sucks man, grow a pair.
Dave R.
November 30th, 2010
8:04 pm
“And Jefferson knew it”
I know you’re old, Doggone, but even I don’t think you were alive in 1800, much less knew Jefferson personally.
Hillbilly Deluxe
November 30th, 2010
8:09 pm
George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were flawed men, just like every other man of their age and every man of any age.
Dave R.
November 30th, 2010
8:10 pm
And AmVet, let’s not forget Shatner’s first foray into comedy as the only guest star to (initially) survive the opening credits of “Police Squad!”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blHwaFzzbkQ
R.I.P. Leslie Neilsen . . .
Southern Comfort
November 30th, 2010
8:11 pm
267 pages and 10 months study to justify a change in policy, such change being fully protected under the Constitution they arguably fight for . . .
That true equality has to be studied at all is a black mark against the military and the government that supports it.
AMEN!! I couldn’t have said it better Dave. This whole discussion on DADT has made me wonder what it was like when integration was first being considered in the military. I guess those who “revere” the Constitution really don’t believe in it, or else this wouldn’t even be a discussion.
Doggone/GA
November 30th, 2010
8:12 pm
“Using that same argument, and I will buy it for my purposes here, the same may be said for heterosexual relationships which are inherently exploitative…and “even any true affection that might have existed” doesn’t negate that”
Only if there is an exploitive situation. Because it could be said that ALL relationships are inherently exploitive…but when the exploitation is essentially equal between the partners, then it’s acceptable to them and to society. The “issue” is when there is an inherently unbalanced aspect to the exploitation.
Undoubtedly, Sally Hemings was able to exploit the (presumed) affection between her and Jefferson to put herself and her children in a higher station of life then they might have otherwise occupied. But it is also undoubted that the balance of exploitation was vitually ALL on Jefferson, since he owned her and her children. He could leave her behind…she did not have that option.
Moderate Line
November 30th, 2010
8:12 pm
The major reason Washington did not emancipate his slaves after the 1782 law and prior to his death was because of the financial costs involved.”
++++++++
Jay can read the minds of dead people. What interesting gift.
Jay
November 30th, 2010
8:12 pm
A fair point, Dave R.
Doggone/GA
November 30th, 2010
8:13 pm
“I know you’re old, Doggone, but even I don’t think you were alive in 1800, much less knew Jefferson personally”
Try to keep up…we’re having an adult discussion.
Dave R.
November 30th, 2010
8:14 pm
WOW! Getting kudos on multiple fronts tonight!
Be still my beating heart . . .
AmVet
November 30th, 2010
8:16 pm
md, that’s me, one big disappointment! But certainly you knew that before now.
I am somewhat amazed that anybody could take the social mores, and even concepts of justice, of 230 years ago and somehow try to equate them with today’s.
Hillbilly Deluxe
November 30th, 2010
8:16 pm
SoCo
Daddy was in the Army just as integration was about to come about. He mustered out not long before it took place but he said the officers told everybody, that when the order comes down, “This is how it’s going to be, whether anybody likes it or not”.
Honu
November 30th, 2010
8:17 pm
Yep, same one AtAt — why drag him into this?
I’ll ask again — your reason for linking to a photo of a guy in a thong when the blog subject is repealing DADT?
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
8:18 pm
Moderate
No, this time the Bruin’s not reading the minds of the long dead…it’s part of the record…
Doggone
Question, why are you not willing to concede that the affection was real and mutual? It’s way to complicated to go into here, but the story of Granny’s cousin Sir Moses Ezequiel and the love of his life is a case I go back to in my own contemplation of this issue…
md
November 30th, 2010
8:18 pm
“Where will they go now?”
Close your eyes, spin the globe, and stop it with your finger. 99% of the planet has cheaper labor costs than we do……………………
Dave R.
November 30th, 2010
8:19 pm
Sorry, Doggone, but except for the sun coming up tomorrow, there are few absolutes in this world. And one of them ain’t “And Jefferson knew it”. If you want an adult conversation, act like one. You can make as many points as you wish regarding her free will or lack thereof, and whether a Jefferson (not necessarily Thomas) exploited her, but you cannot make an absolute statement such as “and Jefferson knew it” and expect to be taken seriously.
Jay
November 30th, 2010
8:20 pm
Moderate, if you reread that post, you’ll see that I was quoting a Wikipedia article, the same one that TGT had selectively quoted earlier.
Doggone/GA
November 30th, 2010
8:20 pm
“Question, why are you not willing to concede that the affection was real and mutual?”
But I am willing to concede that. I’m just not willing to agree that it changes the inherently exploitive nature of their relationship.
Mary Elizabeth
November 30th, 2010
8:20 pm
George Washington wanted to leave the nation his example of freeing his own slaves while he lived. He deeply regretted that, because his Midwestern land did not sell as he had anticipated, financially he was not able to free his slaves, as a model to others, during his lifetime. However, he did set into his will the freeing of his slaves, upon his wife’s death, as his example to his countrymen of the inherent wrong in condoning slavery within our nation.
From “Washington in His Own Words” – A Special Collector’s Edition from the Editors of American History Magazine. From Washington’s Last Will and Testament July 9, 1799:
“Item. Upon the decease of my wife, it is my will and desire that all the slaves which I hold in my own right, shall receive their freedom. . .And I do hereby expressly forbid the sale, or transportation out of the said Commonwealth, of any slave I may die possessed of, under any pretence whatsoever. And I do moreover most pointedly, and most solemnly enjoin it upon my executors hereafter named, or the survivors of them, to see that this clause respecting slaves, and every part thereof be religiously fulfilled at the epoch at which it is directed to take place, without evasion, neglect or delay, after the crops which may then be on the ground are harvested, particularly as it respects the aged and infirm; seeing that a regular and permanent fund be established for their support so long as there are subjects requiring it, not trusting to the uncertain provision to be made by individuals. And to my mulatto man William (calling himself William Lee) I give immediate freedom. . . ” Note: William Lee had served by Washington’s side throughout the Revolutionary War.
And from the book “Revolutionary Characters” by Gordon S. Wood, pp. 59 – 60:
“Washington never took the unity of the country for granted. He knew that if the Union broke apart, it would be between the northern and southern sections. In fact he told his secretary of state Edmund Randolph in 1795 that if the United States dissolved, he had made up his mind to join the North — understandable given his evolving attitude toward slavery. But he wanted nothing more than for the United States to stay together, and he remained preoccupied throughout his presidency with creating the sinews of nationhood.”
@@
November 30th, 2010
8:20 pm
For those who may be interested.
Geopolitical Journey, Part 6: Ukraine is republished with permission of STRATFOR.
Little Ukraine. Whatever will they do? Of little significance to anyone but themselves.
j$
November 30th, 2010
8:21 pm
Gee, this one hasn’t been covered before…how about some palin or evolution or bush done lied or abortion?
scrub a dub
ain’t nuthin’ here a little soap and sock can’t handle.
Moderate Line
November 30th, 2010
8:22 pm
Jay
November 30th, 2010
8:20 pm
Moderate, if you reread that post, you’ll see that I was quoting a Wikipedia article, the same one that TGT had selectively quoted earlier.
+++
Sorry my bad!
RW-(the original)
November 30th, 2010
8:23 pm
RW, if you’re out there, is this the same Honu that used to frequent your blog?
@@,
I don’t know. The first part sounded like her, but that rude comment on the end seems out of character.
jewcowboy,
What do you mean you hit a TV?
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
8:25 pm
@@
I’ll have to save that one for later…it is of great interest to me. The Ukraine is the wild card in the whole mix in my opinion and I’m looking forward to his take on it…
Doggone
I say that because you put (presumed) in parenthesis…
@@
November 30th, 2010
8:26 pm
Honu:
Didn’t wanna drag RW into this, but you weren’t responding. Since when did you start calling me AtAt? It was always @@ at the other location. Anyhoo…
I’ll ask again — your reason for linking to a photo of a guy in a thong when the blog subject is repealing DADT?
DADT is relative to the gay community in which there exist all different kinds of gays? Some more flamboyant than others?
Tell me, Honu….are you thinking I may be homophobic?
Mick
November 30th, 2010
8:26 pm
dave r
**WOW! Getting kudos on multiple fronts tonight!**
Yeah, sometimes you’re down rite respectable….
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
8:27 pm
@@
Are you homophobic? Seems I recall a certain shirt you were told not to wear in public…ISH
RW-(the original)
November 30th, 2010
8:27 pm
Oops! I guess it was.
Note to self: Save your comment and refresh the page before hitting Submit Comment.
Honu,
Are you feeling alright?
Moderate Line
November 30th, 2010
8:28 pm
As a general rule the pentagon is going to recommend whatever the president says to recommend so I don’t think that what it recommends matters or has much credibility. All that being said I have no problem with gays in the military.
However, it is interesting to note what percentage of the population is affected by Don’t Ask Don’t Tell. What is the percentage of people who are gay and want to be in military openly vs the percentage of people who are unemployed or underemployed.
We need to get people back to work and that will decide the next election.
Southern Comfort
November 30th, 2010
8:28 pm
HD
I’ve always wondered what it was like then. I remember coming across a story about a Black servicemember who was lynched in his uniform after coming home from WWI. I can’t remember the whole story, but that’s an image I haven’t been able to shake for more than 20 years. I’m just glad that there hasn’t been nearly the violence targeted at homosexual members of the military as was targeted at the previous “outsiders”. Hopefully when we’re all dead and gone, the younger generations will do away with discrimination altogether.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
8:28 pm
Honu,
“your reason for linking to a photo of a guy in a thong when the blog subject is repealing DADT?”
I agree with @@ that there will most likely be unintended consequences in repealing DADT…anytime you change policy there is…but I’m curious as well as to what point men in thongs have to do with the military.
It seems just as illogical as linking these two:
http://www.mygtv.net/wp-content/uploads/2008/11/mg_anne_dunwoody2.jpg
http://www.dvdcorral.com/dvd/images/max/655587424321.jpg
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
8:29 pm
jewcowboy
“What do you mean you hit a TV?”
Yeah, I was wondering about that, too…
Southern Comfort
November 30th, 2010
8:29 pm
Dave
Respect is seldom given, and it is almost always earned. You earned yours tonight with your 7:01 post. Enough Said!!
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
8:33 pm
Dave
SoCo’s @ 8:29
I second that…
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
8:33 pm
RW-(the original),
“What do you mean you hit a TV?”
I was coming back from the grocery store…it’s raining like crazy…I turn a corner and WHAM! A freaking old tube style 27″ tv sitting in the street. It broke my headlight and tore up my bumper.
I mean who freakin leaves a tv in the middle of the road?
Southern Comfort
November 30th, 2010
8:34 pm
Meant to say respect is seldom given freely…
md
November 30th, 2010
8:35 pm
“I mean who freakin leaves a tv in the middle of the road?”
The guy that thought he could carry it after ripping it off………………
Doggone/GA
November 30th, 2010
8:36 pm
“I say that because you put (presumed) in parenthesis”
I put that because I agree with whoever said it’s not PROVEN that Jefferson had a relationship with her. I think he did, and that he fathered her children…but no, I can’t prove it. The evidence seems pretty strong, but it’s not strong enough to reach the level of absolute certainty.
And in any such relationship, unless we are one of the partners we can ONLY presume an affection existed. But we don’t really know. Women, in particular, have been pretty good at faking affection when it suited them. And even other women can be fooled.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
8:36 pm
Dave R.,
And I give it a rousing 3rd…
RW-(the original)
November 30th, 2010
8:36 pm
jewcowboy,
Maybe it came from that twister in Buford.
I used to work on TV’s in my younger days. Those old picture tubes are deadly weapons. I tossed one of a ravine once and when I went down to see what the implosion had done I found a chunk of glass imbedded in the trunk of an oak far enough that I couldn’t move it.
TGT
November 30th, 2010
8:37 pm
Jay: You should know better than to presume. My (main) source: http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=99
@@
November 30th, 2010
8:37 pm
RW:
Since you’re here, I’ve been wondering…..do you ever hear from Devil Doll? Can you imagine her and josef here at jay’s? She was a hoot, not to mention very talented in her written presentations.
cowboy:
Would Mr. Thong be eligible to serve? Does wearing a leather thong in public denote a sense of integrity or gayness? Which would take precedent with Mr. Thong?
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
8:38 pm
Another point…we are transporting ourselves back in time and passing judgment on those long gone to their eternal one…do you ever wonder what Sally and Tommy’s pillow talk was…? Reckon maybe, just maybe, they talked about all this…?
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
8:39 pm
md,
“The guy that thought he could carry it after ripping it off…”
Probably…but what dumbass tries to steal a 27″ tube tv? How much can that even be worth when 42″ flatscreens go for $400?
All I know is it’s going to be another $500 deductible for me.
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
8:40 pm
Doggone
The DNA is in…and, yes, he was…that question has now been laid to rest…
the original and still the best John Galt
November 30th, 2010
8:41 pm
Allowing openly homosexual people to serve in the military won’t hurt the military much, because conditions are already pretty poor, so another “protected minority” isn’t going to make much difference.
Some units within the Air Force, Army, and Navy are in essence already just welfare groups. There are double standards and quotas thoughout; a black female can almost get away with murder. The Marines, Army Special Forces, and Navy SEALs are the exceptions.
It’s just a matter of time before some military schools, such as flight school, have to graduate a certain number of homosexuals just like they today have to graduate a certain number of women and minorities.
All that is just another result of promotion witnin the officer corps being based on the officer’s contribution to maintaining the military-industrial-congressional complex rather than being based on leadership and warfare competence.
And yes I served for 26 years.
RW-(the original)
November 30th, 2010
8:41 pm
do you ever hear from Devil Doll
Lord do I miss Double D. She was indeed a hoot and a fine person to boot.
I even found her weak spot that might let her switch teams for a night. (ISH)
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
8:41 pm
RW-(the original),
“glass imbedded in the trunk of an oak far enough that I couldn’t move it.”
Plus all the good ole mercury in them…
TGT
November 30th, 2010
8:41 pm
Just to clarify, on this thread, I never once quoted from Wikipedia.
Doggone/GA
November 30th, 2010
8:41 pm
“we are transporting ourselves back in time and passing judgment on those long gone to their eternal one…do you ever wonder what Sally and Tommy’s pillow talk was”
Actually, I’m trying hard not to judge the people involved…only the situation in which they found themselves. But your question brings up one I’ve had for a long time…and that is the education level of Sally Hemings.
Dusty
November 30th, 2010
8:42 pm
What amazes me is the obvious lack of a word that is never mentioned. That word is MORALS. I know is has been subjugated, revised, excused, dismissed, explained, all in absentia. But it still hangs around.
Nobody could believe that Washington t’hought it wrong to own slaves. Or that Jefferson might NOT have been the father of Sally Hemmings children. It is beyond the present imagination to even think that someone might have strong MORALS. That they might resist doing what they wanted to do because it was wrong. That being human is all the excuse we need to do exactly as we please.
Then we tie morals with discrimination. If everyone can’t perform as they wish in any old way in any old place, then they are discriminated against. Young people learned quickly as they accepted drugs, cheating,alcohol and sex at your pleasure.
The sad fact is that morals came about to keep the human being out of trouble as much as possible. Few seem to realize that as they gaily do their “thing”. As Christians, we love them anyway. But the sad part is watching the deterioration that slowly ruins the body and soul when there was so much in the beginning..
md
November 30th, 2010
8:42 pm
“do you ever wonder what Sally and Tommy’s pillow talk was…?”
I’m a simple kind of guy……more like wonder if they even had pillows.
Doggone/GA
November 30th, 2010
8:43 pm
“The DNA is in…and, yes, he was…that question has now been laid to rest…”
I haven’t heard about that. The last time I heard anything about the DNA – admittedly quite a few years ago…they could only say that it could have been Jefferson or a close relative, like a blood uncle.
Southern Comfort
November 30th, 2010
8:44 pm
In relation to the thong, if this soldier can serve his country proud, I don’t forsee any issues with thongs. At the same time, I don’t forsee thongs ever becoming standard issue uniform.
@@
November 30th, 2010
8:44 pm
Well, RW….it may surprise you to know that Devil Doll and I frequently talked about Bush.
schnirt.
Dave R.
November 30th, 2010
8:45 pm
I’m just feelin’ the LOVE tonight . . . !
Seriously, though, as you might have gleaned from earlier discussions on this blog about gay rights and equality, I take my belief in “What part of equal do you not understand?” very much to heart. That some members of our military can profess in one sentence their full and complete allegiance to our Constitution, and then claim that DADT is an acceptable policy is just a scalding indictment of our inability to get the simple concepts of that very simple document through some very thick heads.
John McCain included.
md
November 30th, 2010
8:45 pm
“but what dumbass tries to steal a 27″ tube tv?”
I think steal is the operative word……………..that should answer the dumbass part of the question.
Hillbilly Deluxe
November 30th, 2010
8:46 pm
I mean who freakin leaves a tv in the middle of the road?
Reckon it fell off a truck?
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
8:48 pm
Doggone
Sally Hemmings was well educated according to what I’ve read…one of those little tidbits from history we tend to gloss over was the level and degree of learning of the elite in the slave community…it is intriguing to look over some of the photograph/portraits from the slavery period and see in just how many there are books open…
Doggone/GA
November 30th, 2010
8:48 pm
“Reckon it fell off a truck?”
that was my first thought
Dave R.
November 30th, 2010
8:50 pm
And josef, the DNA is in, and it was concluded that SOME Jefferson was the father, but not necessarily Thomas Jefferson. There were other male Jeffersons frequenting Monticello, although Thomas is the likely suspect.
Doggone/GA
November 30th, 2010
8:50 pm
“Sally Hemmings was well educated according to what I’ve read”
Thanks, that’s something I’ve long wondered about. If I remember correctly, her children were as well, especially one of the boys who traveled to France with Jefferson and was given some additional schooling while he was there. I think I’m remembering that correctly.
Dave R.
November 30th, 2010
8:51 pm
Gonna call it an early night tonight, folks.
Enjoyed it, as usual.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
8:51 pm
@@,
“Would Mr. Thong be eligible to serve?”
I would imagine so as long as thong remained in the closet on days when he wasn’t on leave. But, I don’t know Mr. Thong personally, so I couldn’t really say.
“Does wearing a leather thong in public denote a sense of integrity or gayness?”
I would saying a wearing a leather thong in public denotes poor taste in fashion or a particular BDSM fetish…but I don’t think it denotes either integrity or gayness. And you should be careful how you word things…it could seem that you are saying one is either gay or has integrity. I don’t think that is what you are writing..but…
“Which would take precedent with Mr. Thong?”
Again I don’t know Mr. Thong personally. Do the women I posted at 8.28 have anything in common other than than anatomy?
Mick
November 30th, 2010
8:52 pm
hd@8:46
From jersey, my guess..
RW-(the original)
November 30th, 2010
8:53 pm
That s in schnirt doesn’t stand for (s)tupid does it?
@@,
Geena Davis had some pictures taken of her at an awards show that turned out to be extremely revealing. Somebody asked her about it later and she said it appeared she must be a bush supporter after all.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
8:53 pm
Southern Comfort @ 8.44.
Hillbilly Deluxe
November 30th, 2010
8:54 pm
Dave R’s 8:50, goes along with my understanding of things. Admittedly, I’m no expert.
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
8:55 pm
Doggone
I’ll have to go looking for it…I think (not sure) it was a PBS documentary…
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
8:56 pm
Dave R.,
“Gonna call it an early night tonight, folks.”
G’night.
TGT
November 30th, 2010
8:56 pm
“I just don’t think it’s legitimate to try to justify our own prejudices by citing theirs.”
Woe to those who call evil good and good evil.
Southern Comfort
November 30th, 2010
8:57 pm
I don’t need a history book to tell me that TJ hit dat!!
josef
If I’m not mistaken, wasn’t it more common for people in Jefferson’s class in society to have some in-house educated slaves? Especially if they were like the personal servants that traveled with the owner…
Doggone/GA
November 30th, 2010
8:58 pm
“I think (not sure) it was a PBS documentary…”
Actually, I think I’m remembering it from a documentary as well. I wasn’t completely happy with the one I saw because they represented Sally Hemings as a dark woman and I already knew that she wasn’t. I put it down to a reluctance to represent a (essentially) Caucasian woman as a slave, when the popular image is that of a dark slave.
Doggone/GA
November 30th, 2010
8:59 pm
Time for me to go too…nite all.
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
9:00 pm
Y’all are right on the “possibility” of another Jefferson…it’s the “circumstantial” evidence combined with the scientific that, pretty much, seals it and one faction of the Jefferson descendents have accepted it as “fact…” The Monticello web site has an interesting read on it with some good links…
Del
November 30th, 2010
9:00 pm
There is no relationship with race, religion and sexual preference. It’s a stupid argument that just doesn’t hold up…
the original and still the best John Galt
November 30th, 2010
9:00 pm
All the DNA studies on the Hemings and the Jefferson descendants have proven is that the Hemings and the Jefferson descendants have a common male ancestor. All of the acknowledged Jefferson descendants are in the female line because Jefferson had no sons.
The President’s brother was known in their time for liking to hang around the slave quarters, so he seems the most likely candidate, unless the Marxist agenda to denigrate all the U.S. “Founding Fathers” as hypocrites is taken into account. Then the mania to connect Jefferson with Hemings is easily understood.
To this day the Hemings are not allowed to be buried in the Jefferson cemetary at Monticello.
See the “Thomas Jefferson Heritage Society” for further facts about the agenda that keeps hammering away at the memory of the greatest President we ever had.
TGT
November 30th, 2010
9:01 pm
Ravi Zacharias on homosexuality: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CIw6ngIqaD0
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
9:02 pm
I have to go as well…but I’ll leave this for @@ who seems to think gay men love thongs…
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/_O6xLvXpZlOU/S3gdZoCn02I/AAAAAAAAFJQ/q8LZnChUsdY/s400/john-mayer-borat-thong.jpg
Southern Comfort
November 30th, 2010
9:02 pm
so he seems the most likely candidate, unless the Marxist agenda to denigrate all the U.S. “Founding Fathers” as hypocrites is taken into account.
I think that was my cue to exit stage left… Everything always has to be an agenda. Good grief!!
Later y’all…
Honu
November 30th, 2010
9:03 pm
Jewcowboy — you know, and I know, and everyone else here knows why that picture was linked on a DADT discussion blog.
RW — I can’t apologize for my rudeness, if that’s what you think it was. I’ve absolutely had it with the gay bashing.
AtAt — seriously, why post that picture on this blog? Whatever were you trying to say? Nothing pisses me off more than to see someone who normally has a logical argument come up with that crap. Yes, I do now believe you’re homophobic. Otherwise, why the link to that photo? Enough already.
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
9:03 pm
Galt
He may have liked “to hang around the slave quarters,” but Ms Hemmings didn’t live there and most probably did not even visit very often…the gulf between the big house and the lighter skinned and the slave quarters and darker skinned was wide…
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
9:04 pm
josef nix,
Before I go…since you brought up Israel, I wondered if you had ever read this:
http://www.amazon.com/Brothers-Others-Arms-Making-Israeli/dp/1560233656/ref=cm_cr_pr_product_top
If not, I highly suggest it.
@@
November 30th, 2010
9:05 pm
cowboy:
A lot of I don’t knows in there, thus, proving my point…which, by the by, you agreed with. We don’t know what unintended consequences will result. The likes of Mr. Thong could be one of them.
I don’t think that is what you are writing..but…
I’ve quit concerning myself with how my posts are worded. If someone is determined to find sinister, they will….regardless of how I word it. What’s important is that I know what’s in my heart.
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
9:09 pm
SoCo
I have seen figures that upward of 20% of the slave population was literate…mostly, of course, the domestics and those involved in the industrial/artisan sectors…I may have shared with you elsewhere the story of the distillery…and that was not as unusual as we might think…and in the French South, the literacy rate was much higher than the English South…
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
9:11 pm
jewcowboy
Yes. At your suggestion…great read!
RW-(the original)
November 30th, 2010
9:11 pm
RW — I can’t apologize for my rudeness, if that’s what you think it was. I’ve absolutely had it with the gay bashing.
Honu,
I can’t agree with your assertion that @@ was gay bashing. Every time this discussion has come up there’s been a lingering question over “serving openly” that nobody seems to have a definition for. I took her link to show that there are some extremes (and her link wasn’t nearly as extreme as some that are readily available out there) that have to be taken into consideration for code of conduct type considerations that go along with the meaning of serving openly.
And for the record I didn’t say a word about whether you should or shouldn’t apologize. That isn’t my style and you well know that.
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
9:13 pm
As lively as it’s been…gotta check out myself…tomorrow’s predicted to be a rough one at work…g’night…
@@
November 30th, 2010
9:14 pm
Honu:
Yes, I do now believe you’re homophobic.
And you, Honu, couldn’t be more wrong in your belief.
I’ll answer to gays I consider dear friends know before I’ll answer to you.
Take your self-righteous indignation elsewhere, Honu. I’m not impressed.
the original and still the best John Galt
November 30th, 2010
9:15 pm
I believe if you check you will find that the slave quarters at Monticello are right next to the house; some were attached to the house, and that Sally Hemings did occupy rooms there. I believe which were her rooms are well known. They would have been easy for either Thomas or his brother to get to, and of course Ms. Hemings herself did work in the house.
A recently published report on the agenda to impune Jefferson’s integrity, as well as the factual errors made by those promoting that agenda can be found here:
http://www.tjheritage.org/WorksJefferson-HemingsArticle.pdf
Honu
November 30th, 2010
9:16 pm
RW — I totally disagree with the reason for that link (or any like it.) But you are correct about not asking me to apologize — just wanted you to know I wasn’t going to HAHAHAHAHAH
The end. . .
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
9:16 pm
@@,
“A lot of I don’t knows in there, thus, proving my point…which, by the by, you agreed with. We don’t know what unintended consequences will result. The likes of Mr. Thong could be one of them.”
I agree with your point about unintended consequences..b/c as I said before anytime you change policy that will happen. But you weaken your argument by posting a guy in thong, intimating that this is what the military could turn into. One has nothing to do with the other…it was gratuitous and doesn’t have anything to do with your central premise. It was just juvenile…
And on that I bid you a bonne nuit.
Dusty
November 30th, 2010
9:21 pm
Hey @@, good for you. You know what is in your heart. That is why it is always interesting to read what you have to say. No pretension…just thoughtful honesty… ..very nice….
@@
November 30th, 2010
9:21 pm
cowboy:
Oftentimes, everyone here refers to the extremes. The extreme right, the extreme left. There are extremes within the gay community that…one way or another….cannot be denied.
Like I said…people will see sinister where none exists. So be it.
Honu
November 30th, 2010
9:24 pm
I agree, you shouldn’t be impressed. You should be embarrassed.
Here’s to a better day of compassion and understanding tomorrow. . .
rae
November 30th, 2010
9:27 pm
the world would be a better place if everyone was bisexual…
@@
November 30th, 2010
9:28 pm
Honu:
Sorry to disappoint, but I have no reason to be embarrassed. Try again tomorrow, why don’tcha?
Winning Progressive
November 30th, 2010
10:48 pm
Now would be a good time to call your Senators to demand that they repeal DADT during the lame duck session. Contact info and key Senators to call are collected here:
http://www.winningprogressive.org/last-call-for-now-for-progressive-legislation-in-congress
Normal
December 1st, 2010
7:07 am
Definition of GAY. 1. a: happily excited : merry b: keenly alive and exuberant : having or inducing high spirits.
Yep, I’m gay…
USinUK
December 1st, 2010
7:35 am
definition of irony: reading Normal’s definition of gay while watching Judy Garland sing “somewhere over the rainbow”
Jimmy62
December 1st, 2010
7:42 am
GOP leaders are one thing, but I’ll bet the average Tea Party influenced voter would be happy to end this ridiculous rule. I know I support repealing DADT, as do all my many conservative friends, none of whom hate gays. It’s possible to be conservative yet not religious in the gay is evil kind of way.
TaxPayer
December 1st, 2010
8:02 am
The Federal Reserve, under orders from Congress, plans today to identify recipients of $3.3 trillion in emergency aid the central bank provided as it fought the worst financial crisis since the Great Depression.
The Fed intends to post the data on its website at midday in Washington to comply with a provision in July’s Dodd-Frank law overhauling financial regulation. The information spans six loan programs as well as currency swaps with other central banks, purchases of mortgage-backed securities and the rescues of Bear Stearns Cos. and American International Group Inc.
Oh NO! Shouldn’t WikiLeaks be given the opportunity to post their information prior to the government leaking all of it.
Common Sense isn't very Common
December 1st, 2010
8:02 am
Normal@7:07 am
Definition of GAY. 1. a: happily excited : merry b: keenly alive and exuberant : having or inducing high spirits.
Yep, I’m gay…
——————————–
You may be gay but you’re certainly not Normal
But then again most of us here aren’t
Mick
December 1st, 2010
8:07 am
Allright, took the shudders down, another hurricane season over without a hit. Still my insurance premiums are on the rise, where it will stop – nobody knows.
TaxPayer
December 1st, 2010
8:09 am
RICHMOND, Va. — A federal judge on Tuesday dismissed Liberty University’s lawsuit challenging the Obama administration’s new federal health care law, declaring that a provision requiring most individuals to obtain insurance is constitutional.
The ruling by U.S. District Judge Norman K. Moon in Lynchburg is the second court decision upholding the law, following one in Michigan in October. University law school dean Mathew Staver said in a telephone interview that he will promptly appeal the ruling to the 4th U.S. Circuit Court of Appeals in Richmond.
Awwww! I guess the girls going wild at Liberty U. still get to have their insurance pay for their birth control pills.
Normal
December 1st, 2010
8:15 am
Common Sense isn’t very Common
December 1st, 2010
8:02 am
It would be a happier world if more people were like me….
AmVet
December 1st, 2010
8:18 am
Winning Progressive, oh yeah, baby. I can just imagine the canned non-response I’d get from that gutless SOB Saxby, that supposedly represents me. What a consummate embarrassment, even by Georgia’s standards. And now we have a sleazy governor to add to the list of Republican “accomplishments” in the past eight years.
Morning, gay Normal!.
That is my one complaint with the heterosexual crowd. They hijacked that lovely word. We need a referendum to get it back, dammit! And ditto on Common Sense’s last sentence. (Thank gawd!)
Mick, good news that you had no calamities down there this year. We just got pounded in Atlanta last night with some serious damage in the burbs. (Possible EF-2 tornado.)
AmVet
December 1st, 2010
8:19 am
Oops, make that homosexual crowd. (A Freudian slip?!)
Normal
December 1st, 2010
8:25 am
Good morning AmVet…What color is that slip?
USinUK
December 1st, 2010
8:28 am
dammit, Normal, now I’m picturing AmVet to look something like this …
http://drx.typepad.com/psychotherapyblog/images/2007/06/03/elizabeth_taylor_cat_on_a_hot_tin_r.jpg
tscali
December 1st, 2010
8:29 am
planned job cuts at eight-month high. two million lose jobless benefits as holidays loom. will the feds claim the two million among the employed now? smoke & mirrors.
Normal
December 1st, 2010
8:30 am
USinUK,
If AmVet looks like that, then I’m defifitely gay!!!
Be Still my beating heart!
Doggone/GA
December 1st, 2010
8:32 am
“They hijacked that lovely word. We need a referendum to get it back, dammit!”
When “gay” started becoming used for homosexual, I heard a speech by a LGBT activist that said we could now have the word “queer” back!
Normal
December 1st, 2010
8:32 am
tscali
December 1st, 2010
8:29 am
I haven’t seen if job gains are purely holiday seasonal or not, have you seen anything?
AmVet
December 1st, 2010
8:33 am
Great, let’s all dogpile on AmVet this morning!
ex-pat, I would have loved to have gotten into that slip! (Too bad she had to eat 7,000 lbs. of mashed potatoes and turned into a human blimp…)
A cold, windy one here in Doraville this morning…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4-IZTZkTY8
USinUK
December 1st, 2010
8:33 am
tscali – I don’t know if you’ve noticed this, but we’re at the end of the year – when companies traditionally make cuts … while the announcement was up on the month, it was down on the year
Southern Comfort
December 1st, 2010
8:33 am
Definition of GAY. 1. a: happily excited : merry b: keenly alive and exuberant : having or inducing high spirits.
Yep, I’m gay…
Next, you’ll say you lived in the Gay 90’s…
Normal
December 1st, 2010
8:34 am
Says here that “gay” was used in an immoral context as far back as the 1600…who knew?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay
Mick
December 1st, 2010
8:35 am
amvet
Nature knows no bounds, all you can do is collect on that insurance policy and rebuild.
USinUK
December 1st, 2010
8:35 am
amvet – “A cold, windy one here in Doraville this morning…”
cry me a flippin river
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-11883714
(knee-high at my house)
AmVet
December 1st, 2010
8:35 am
Doggone, what a terrible trade!
More morning music from the Cat…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nL_yON7–N8&feature=fvst
Normal
December 1st, 2010
8:35 am
SoCo,
No but I will be just as gay when I AM 90!
USinUK
December 1st, 2010
8:36 am
SoCo (and Normal) – or that he’s been to Gay Par-ee
Southern Comfort
December 1st, 2010
8:37 am
http://nolabels.org
If you’re tired of the partisan bs, there’s change coming on the horizon…
Southern Comfort
December 1st, 2010
8:38 am
Normal
Mick
December 1st, 2010
8:40 am
usinuk
Just another day in paradise down here at a balmy 75 degree’s. We are however, anticipating a cold front to move in tonite which will bring the temps down to a frigid 58 degree’s – c’mon baby light that fire…
Southern Comfort
December 1st, 2010
8:44 am
Mick
Just rub it in…
AmVet
December 1st, 2010
8:44 am
Mick, I feel so sorry for you!
I spent the T-day holiday in St. Augustine and that was real treat for me. Long walks on the beach…
A really sweet song that perfectly captures the feel of the coming winter here in Dixie…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rBmSppk9n9c&feature=related
Common Sense isn't very Common
December 1st, 2010
8:49 am
AmVet@8:33 am
ex-pat, I would have loved to have gotten into that slip! (Too bad she had to eat 7,000 lbs. of mashed potatoes and turned into a human blimp…)
—————————-
Picturing Liz in a spandex slip
Southern Comfort
December 1st, 2010
8:50 am
WASHINGTON — Senate Republicans intend to block action on virtually all Democratic-backed legislation unrelated to tax cuts and government spending in the current postelection session of Congress, officials said Tuesday, adding that the leadership has quietly collected signatures on a letter pledging to carry out the strategy.
And who says the GOP does not have their constituent’s concerns at heart. They want to be fiscally responsible, yet all they want to talk is tax cuts. WTF?????
Bosch
December 1st, 2010
8:52 am
Everyone ok over in Gwinnett County? Morning blogger peeps!
Doggone/GA
December 1st, 2010
8:52 am
“Everyone ok over in Gwinnett County?”
Yeah, that was a little too close for comfort. I’m not in Gwinnett, but I’m close!
Southern Comfort
December 1st, 2010
8:54 am
Southside’s ok, except for Locust Grove. That one hit close to home. Not to mention, the ABW was at work and was in close proximity to that one too.
Joe the Plutocrat (the artist formerly known as paleo-neo-Carlinist)
December 1st, 2010
8:54 am
rhetorical excercise; who would you prefer to be “on th wall” protecting your freedom; one of the gay Special Forces soldiers cited in the recent (August?) Atlantic Montly article (”…if I trust him to cover my a**, he can look at it…”), or the Navy SEAL recently accused to running guns (from Afghanistan and Iraq) to Mexican drug cartels? a person’s bedroom behavior has NO impact on battlefield performance. to the contrary, it would appear a person’s opinion of the bedroom behaviors of others does. and as has been noted over and over, most likely man gay soldiers, Marines, airmen and sailors will choose to “don’t tell” and continue to serve with honor (or dishonor, as it were).
USinUK
December 1st, 2010
8:57 am
mick – 11:40 – you are an evil, evil person
Southern Comfort
December 1st, 2010
9:01 am
Joe
You’re making too much sense in the am…
You’re damn right. A person’s bedroom behavior has no impact on their battlefield performance. In addition, it’s downright offensive to me that the party that is so gung ho on personal responsibility and personal freedom is trying to control what people do behind closed doors in their own home. That’s the epitome of hypocracy in my book. That’s why I have reduced respect for many who claim to be defenders of freedom in one breath, and then advocate discrimination and government control over personal freedoms in the next.
Mystified
December 1st, 2010
9:14 am
Maybe it was already said, but saying the military is ok with this is not necessarily true. The REMFs are ok with it. The Marines, and other combat arms units are against it. As far as I’m concerned they are the only ones that count. What a clerk typist thinks about military policy doesn’t concern me in the least. Our focus should be on reducing the distractions to the guys on the fence who actually risk their safety for us.
Doggone/GA
December 1st, 2010
9:16 am
“Our focus should be on reducing the distractions to the guys on the fence who actually risk their safety for us”
and if you’ve got a guy on the front lines who’s more worried about his fellow soldiers bedroom behavior than he is about actually doing his job…do we really NEED him out there?
USinUK
December 1st, 2010
9:19 am
Doggone – haven’t you heard? if a gay guy wants to jump your bones, he’s gonna do it, even if he’s under fire from the Taliban
that’s how they roll
Southern Comfort
December 1st, 2010
9:21 am
Good question Doggone…
Mystified
December 1st, 2010
9:21 am
This “what goes on behind closed doors in my own home” excuse is weak. Drug use, prostitution, child molestation, necrophilia, bestiality, rape, and a myriad of other illegal and immoral things go on behind those same closed doors. The privacy of which does absolutely nothing to moderate their immorality or illegality. Just because your baseless morality allows you to accept what others deem immoral or at least inappropriate in no way makes them hypocritical for taking a stand against it. The love of personal responsibility and personal freedom does not equate to anarchy.
Southern Comfort
December 1st, 2010
9:22 am
if a gay guy wants to jump your bones
Are we talking about Evil Knievel type jumping?
dan
December 1st, 2010
9:22 am
The ATL-GAY Pride parade was a snooze festival, God don’t make ‘em as freaky as he/she used too back in the day, all hail the 80’s
Southern Comfort
December 1st, 2010
9:24 am
Mystified
You can legislate illegality with no problem. Immorality is a completely different subject. What may be immoral for one person may be culturally acceptable for someone else. There’s no way to equate the two. Funny how people want small government, but they still want the government in someone’s bedroom.
Doggone/GA
December 1st, 2010
9:26 am
“if a gay guy wants to jump your bones, he’s gonna do it, even if he’s under fire from the Taliban”
I’m terribly afraid I’m getting more than a little amusement out of the whole thing. Give some of those guys a taste of what it feels like to be a woman and not know if you can trust the guy next to you or not!
Bosch
December 1st, 2010
9:26 am
Mystified @ 9:21 –
And what, pray tell, does any of those activities you mentioned have to do with homosexuality or DADT?
Doggone and SoCo — glad to hear you are all okay!
Nice Guy
December 1st, 2010
9:27 am
“if a gay guy wants to jump your bones, he’s gonna do it, even if he’s under fire from the Taliban”
What? More rhetoric from the Left-nuts.
Bosch
December 1st, 2010
9:29 am
SoCo,
” What may be immoral for one person may be culturally acceptable for someone else. ”
The Episcopal Church is a good example of that — there have been rifts in the international Anglican community over homosexuality and polygamy. The African Bishops, many whom have multiple wives, like to tell the American folks that homosexuality is a sin, blah, blah, blah and they can’t condone it all the while the American Bishops take offense to the multiple wives thing.
Personally, I think they should all just shut up and mind their own business.
Nice Guy
December 1st, 2010
9:29 am
Doggone – “and if you’ve got a guy on the front lines who’s more worried about his fellow soldiers bedroom behavior ”
There are militarty responsibilities that take place in other places than the “front lines.” Many, many servicemen/woman never see a battlefield.
Bosch
December 1st, 2010
9:30 am
Jay must have slept in this morning.
Doggone/GA
December 1st, 2010
9:31 am
“This “what goes on behind closed doors in my own home” excuse is weak. Drug use, prostitution, child molestation, necrophilia, bestiality, rape, and a myriad of other illegal and immoral things go on behind those same closed doors”
But that is not the only argument being used. The things you’ve listed have implications beyond what goes on behind closed doors.
“Drug use” – has implications of danger to those around the user
“prostitution, child molestation,rape” – are crimes against a victim
“necrophilia” – again has, besides the ick factor, the problems of contamination from dead tissue spreading diseases
“bestiality” – is also a crime of cruelty to animals
Homosexuality, on the otherhand, when between two consenting adults – is a “victimless crime”
If it is immoral to YOU, it doesn’t necessarily follow that EVERYONE does, or even ought to, consider it immoral. And even if it is universally immoral (which it isn’t) it still doesn’t necessarily follow that it should be illegal.
Nice Guy
December 1st, 2010
9:32 am
Jay – “Based on all we saw and heard, our assessment is that, when coupled with the prompt implementation of the recommendations we offer below, the risk of repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell to overall military effectiveness is low.”
Right. And people always tell the truth in exit polling as well. Sure.
Doggone/GA
December 1st, 2010
9:33 am
“There are militarty responsibilities that take place in other places than the “front lines.” Many, many servicemen/woman never see a battlefield.”
And what does that matter? Whoever they are, whatever job they do…what the guy next to them does in his bedroom is none of their business. They have a JOB to do. So do it, and keep your mind on your job…not the guy next to you that’s just doing HIS job.
Southern Comfort
December 1st, 2010
9:35 am
This “what goes on behind closed doors in my own home” excuse is weak. Drug use, prostitution, child molestation, necrophilia, bestiality, rape, and a myriad of other illegal and immoral things go on behind those same closed doors.
I just digested what you posted… So, you’re equating homosexuality with all those other offenses? And/Or are you saying that homosexuals also participate in those activites as well? Those things that you say are illegal and immoral have been legislated as illegal. Immoral has nothing to do with the legality of it.
As an example, when I lived in Alabama, there was a law passed that made it illegal to sell or purchase dildos. Why in the hell would legislators want to even waste time to do such a thing other than to control what people did in the privacy of their own home? There was a lady who sued to have the law overturned because her doctor had prescribed one for her. Has someone held up a bank with a dildo before? Has someone been stabbed to death with one? That’s sheer lunacy. If you don’t like them or don’t want to see them, then don’t purchase them or frequent shops where they are sold. Easy solution to an easy problem.
Southern Comfort
December 1st, 2010
9:36 am
Personally, I think they should all just shut up and mind their own business.
My hero has spoken!!
barking frog
December 1st, 2010
9:37 am
those moralists among you, explain please the moral
high ground ot the Congress debating tax cuts in the
billions for the wealthy while allowing the unemployment
benefits for millions expire. you can thank Scott Brown
for that. many of those ‘combat veterans’ may soon
be on the street with no money but they will probably
have weapons.
USinUK
December 1st, 2010
9:38 am
doggone – “Give some of those guys a taste of what it feels like to be a woman and not know if you can trust the guy next to you or not!”
but … but … but … that’s different! that’s as nature intended!
Bosch
December 1st, 2010
9:39 am
SoCo,
Well, you personally made my day with this:
“Has someone held up a bank with a dildo before? Has someone been stabbed to death with one?”
The mental image alone is enough to keep me going through the day!
Intown
December 1st, 2010
9:39 am
If this lame duck Congress accomplishes nothing else, I will think it a success if they repeal Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell.
Bosch
December 1st, 2010
9:40 am
explain please the moral
high ground ot the Congress debating tax cuts in the
billions for the wealthy while allowing the unemployment
benefits for millions expire
Yes, I too would like that one explained as well. Thanks.
Normal
December 1st, 2010
9:42 am
Has someone held up a bank with a dildo before? Has someone been stabbed to death with one?
Poked in the eye, maybe…
Joe the Plutocract (the artist formerly known as paleo-neo-Carlinist)
December 1st, 2010
9:50 am
SoCo, my only issue with your 9:01 is the fact you “respect(ed)” the GOP pimps in the first place.
Dusty
December 1st, 2010
9:54 am
Well, good morning, all you silly people. OK, I laughed a little too even though there were some words that were not in my dictionary. No, I won’t ask you folks. You might tell me. Anyway, I live not too far from Sphghetti Junction and no snow has fallen, just a hunk of concrete on I285. OH well, what’s new?
Snow in merry old England, USinUK? Is Tiny Tim singing? Scrooge growling? Christmas is coming!!
Joe the Plutocract (the artist formerly known as paleo-neo-Carlinist)
December 1st, 2010
9:57 am
Mystified, and illegal arms trading (aforementioned Navy SEAL), murder (”fragging” and Balckwater shoot ‘em ups), rape (Marines in Okinawa), etc. take place out in the open (battlefield). what’s your point? and ah yes, the REMF card. first it was “all soldiers and officers support DADT” but in light of the recent study (2/3 could care less) you’re now suggesting that “combat” units are all that matter. you wouldn’t by any chance be a lawyer. lobbyist, or preacher?
Nice Guy
December 3rd, 2010
3:40 pm
Make that 11/30, not yeseterday….