Pentagon officially endorses an end to DADT, anti-gay bias
The results of the Pentagon’s ten-month assessment of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell have now been released. Here’s the money quote:
“Based on all we saw and heard, our assessment is that, when coupled with the prompt implementation of the recommendations we offer below, the risk of repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell to overall military effectiveness is low. We conclude that, while a repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell will likely, in the short term, bring about some limited and isolated disruption to unit cohesion and retention, we do not believe this disruption will be widespread or long-lasting, and can be adequately addressed by the recommendations we offer below. Longer term, with a continued and sustained commitment to core values of leadership, professionalism, and respect for all, we are convinced that the U.S. military can adjust and accommodate this change, just as it has others in history.”
In remarks today, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates endorsed the report’s findings and strongly urged “the Senate to pass this legislation and send it to the president for signature before the end of this year.”
“Given the present circumstances, those that choose not to act legislatively are rolling the dice that this policy will not be abruptly overturned by the courts,” Gates said, warning that a court-imposed change would be “by far the most disruptive and damaging scenario I can imagine, and the one most hazardous to military morale, readiness and battlefield performance.”
The country is ready. The military is ready. The time for waiting has passed; the time for acting has finally come.
“For years now I have heard the word ‘Wait!’” an impatient Martin Luther King Jr. wrote from the Birmingham jail. “It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This ‘Wait’ has almost always meant ‘Never.’ We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that ‘justice too long delayed is justice denied’.”
No more waiting. No more excuses.
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545 comments Add your comment
Doggone/GA
November 30th, 2010
6:47 pm
“Do we mix men and women… and why not?”
Because men can’t be trusted
Bruno
November 30th, 2010
6:47 pm
Am–Great on-topic choice @ 5:42. I’m sure there’s got to ba a TR song or two that fit the occasion.
One more for josef:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o-d5x-CiTUs
Paul
November 30th, 2010
6:48 pm
USMC Dawg
“When you don’t have the experience to know something ”
There you go ASS-uming again….
And don’t bother to ask personal questions. If you’ve been around for a while you know my opinion – blogs are about ideas, independent of background or position. Personal experience cited as an absolute, especially when the experience is at a very, very restricted level in a large organization, is misleading.
At least, that’s how it seems to me -
ferret face
November 30th, 2010
6:48 pm
klinger wasn’t gay, but i have my suspicions about radar
@@
November 30th, 2010
6:49 pm
md:
I was talking about guys. If someone (seemingly decent) asked me out, I went…irrespective of his looks, height, social awkwardness. If he was brave enough to put himself out there, I could be equally as brave. The best gifts don’t always come in beautifully wrapped packages.
All it took to win me over was a good sense of humor with a bit of rebelliousness. A winning combination. My husband has both and no hair.
Bruno
November 30th, 2010
6:50 pm
“Because men can’t be trusted”
Totally agree, Doggone. The rate of assault on women soldiers is unacceptable to me.
Any opinion about women being allowed in men’s locker rooms while the men are showering/changing, but not vice versa?? Big double standard in my book.
Keep up the good fight!
November 30th, 2010
6:50 pm
Is it just me. When I see predictions of “the country will follow” it just reads “The sky is falling, the sky is falling.”
Keep up the good fight!
November 30th, 2010
6:52 pm
rubbing you the wrong way — trying to ignore the irony….trying…..
ferret face
November 30th, 2010
6:54 pm
colonel hogan was a freak betwixt the sheets
Jay
November 30th, 2010
6:54 pm
No, USMC, you didn’t touch a nerve with that claim. It’s a nonsense, irrelevant argument, deployed because you don’t have a better one.
Would you tell Secretary Gates or General Ham or Admiral Mullen, all of whom share my viewpoint on this, that they too don’t know anything about the military? Clearly not. You’re simply trying to put the rest of us on the defensive with that approach, and sorry, I’m not buying it.
RW-(the original)
November 30th, 2010
6:55 pm
Is Radar the only character that was played by the same person in the movie and TV show versions of MASH?
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
6:55 pm
PAUL
That pretty much was what I thought…’course I stay away from mirrors, myself…lies and distortions, I tell you…
Bruno
Thanks…not exactly celebrating…we’ll see what happens…
md
November 30th, 2010
6:56 pm
“If someone (seemingly decent) asked me out, I went…irrespective of his looks, height, social awkwardness. If he was brave enough to put himself out there, I could be equally as brave.”
Too bad you weren’t at my school……………….
Rejection was never fun, and too often is taken personal when in actuality, it may not be. Class reunions are good for finding out all the scoop many years later………..too bad there are no do-overs, but on the other hand…
Jay
November 30th, 2010
6:57 pm
By the way, since we seem to be veering into TV here, has anybody else watched that show “Raising Hope”? I think it’s hysterical, and I’m not a big fan of TV shows in general.
BADA BING
November 30th, 2010
6:59 pm
I am just going to put these silly bullets in my pocket. This ammo belt is just so busy!
Doggone/GA
November 30th, 2010
6:59 pm
“Any opinion about women being allowed in men’s locker rooms while the men are showering/changing, but not vice versa?? Big double standard in my book”
Nope, no opinion. I think you’re talking about, in particular, women reporters. If the men don’t mind and the reporter doesn’t mind, what’s the issue? If they were nurses would you even have to ask?
Mick
November 30th, 2010
7:00 pm
Everything these days cost. The greatest value that still survives in this torn up country is the freedom of thoughts and idea’s. Thirty percent is a respectable number even though it’s in the minority. Those people have the right to disagree with a policy without feeling tormented. Today it’s them but tomorrow, it may be you…
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
7:01 pm
BRUNO
Love that Ritchie Havens…that man is amazing….
Paul
November 30th, 2010
7:01 pm
josef nix 6:55
I know what you mean. All my mirrors are defective, too. Like in the cartoon, ‘cept I’m the buff guy looking in and the reflection is that other thing -
Dave R.
November 30th, 2010
7:01 pm
267 pages and 10 months study to justify a change in policy, such change being fully protected under the Constitution they arguably fight for . . .
That true equality has to be studied at all is a black mark against the military and the government that supports it.
BADA BING
November 30th, 2010
7:01 pm
Quartermaster, do you have these combat boots in an open toe?
Paul
November 30th, 2010
7:02 pm
Jay
Hadn’t heard of it (this blog undercuts my self discipline so I have to get up way early and sometimes go in way late to make up work) but I’ll but it on my record schedule. Thanks -
Paul
November 30th, 2010
7:03 pm
Bada Bing
No, but he has some nice patent leather for military men’s everyday wear –
Okay… I’ve beat that one to death -
Dave R.
November 30th, 2010
7:05 pm
Jay, best new show this year (comedy) is William Shatner’s “$#*! my Dad says”. “Hot in Cleveland” on TVLand is also very funny.
TaxPayer
November 30th, 2010
7:05 pm
Raising Hope is good comic relief. It has My Name is Earl easily beat.
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
7:05 pm
JAY
Ain’t that show on Fox?
I’d watch Cloris Leachmann in a dog food commercial, though!
Not exactly hooked on it yet…it’s got promise…good (and funny) writing…
Bruno
November 30th, 2010
7:05 pm
AmVet–Back at ya’ with my two favorite songs from the Aqualung album:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jpkRdoXxs20
Had a great T-Day in Atlanta, one of the best yet. On Friday we ate at a great bar/restaurant in Vinings. I can’t recall the name right now, but the lobster bisque and broiled scallops were great. Plus the steak and dessert I scavenged from my friend’s plates. I have no pride when it comes to begging for food……
Del
November 30th, 2010
7:06 pm
Jay,
I wonder how it’s clear…I guess that will be made clear in the congressional debates.
BADA BING
November 30th, 2010
7:06 pm
What do you call a lesbian in fatiques? Militia Etheridge.
Mick
November 30th, 2010
7:08 pm
dave r
Boardwalk empire has had some good story lines….other than that, not much.
TGT
November 30th, 2010
7:10 pm
Jay: You mean this George Washington:
“Concerning (slavery) the path Washington desired to see (Virginia) choose, he emphatically declared:
I can only say that there is not a man living who wishes more sincerely than I do to see a plan adopted for the abolition of it [slavery]; but there is only one proper and effectual mode by which it can be accomplished, and that is by Legislative authority; and this, as far as my suffrage [vote and support] will go, shall never be wanting [lacking].
As Washington had pledged, he did provide his support and leadership in efforts to end the slave trade. For example, on July 18, 1774, the committee which Washington chaired in his own Fairfax County passed the following act:
Resolved, that it is the opinion of this meeting that during our present difficulties and distress, no slaves ought to be imported into any of the British colonies on this continent; and we take this opportunity of declaring our most earnest wishes to see an entire stop for ever put to such a wicked, cruel, and unnatural trade.
Having developed this position, Washington maintained it throughout his life and reaffirmed it often. For example, when General Marquis de Lafayette decided to buy a plantation in French Guiana for the purpose of freeing its slaves and placing them on the estate as tenants, Washington wrote Lafayette:
Your late purchase of an estate in the colony of Cayenne, with a view of emancipating the slaves on it, is a generous and noble proof of your humanity. Would to God a like spirit would diffuse itself generally into the minds of the people of this country, but I despair of seeing it. Some petitions were presented to the [Virginia] Assembly at its last session for the abolition of slavery, but they could scarcely obtain a reading.
…Not only did George Washington commit himself to caring for his slaves and to seeking a legal remedy by which they might be freed in his State but he also took the leadership in doing so on the national level. In fact, the first federal racial civil rights law in America was passed on August 7, 1789, with the endorsing signature of President George Washington.
That law, entitled “An Ordinance of the Territory of the United States Northwest of the River Ohio,” prohibited slavery in any new State that might seek to enter the Union. Consequently, slavery was prohibited in all the American territories held at the time; and it was because of this law, signed by President George Washington, that Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Minnesota, and Wisconsin all prohibited slavery.
Despite the slow but steady progress made in many parts of the nation, especially in the North, the laws in Virginia were designed to discourage and prevent the emancipation of slaves. The loophole which finally allowed Washington to circumvent Virginia law was by emancipating his slaves on his death, which he did.”
Hillbilly Deluxe
November 30th, 2010
7:10 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M1ydFnA-H1M
md
November 30th, 2010
7:11 pm
Well, the misfits passed the Pigford scam bill………….more money we don’t have……..
“According to sworn testimony by John Boyd, President of the National Black Farmers Association, there are 18,000 black farmers. They could not all have been victims of discrimination. To date, there have been over 94,000 claims made.”
Bruno
November 30th, 2010
7:11 pm
Gotta run, but one for the band:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lY5i4-rWh44
AmVet
November 30th, 2010
7:11 pm
Dave R, is that show fashioned after the book?
My son gave it to me a few months ago, and I literally LOLed repeatedly.
Very funny and immensely enjoyable; yet it has some really good lessons in it…
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
7:11 pm
DAVE R
“That true equality has to be studied at all is a black mark against the military and the government that supports it.”
My sentiments in a nutshell…
Dave R.
November 30th, 2010
7:11 pm
My problem is that I don’t get HBO, Mick. Too much money for very little entertainment in my view.
Hot-Lips Houlihan
November 30th, 2010
7:13 pm
The nurses in the army they haven’t tied the knot, but this one’s gonna try it with donald penobscott…
Jay
November 30th, 2010
7:14 pm
TGT, did he free the slaves under his own control?
No.
Everything else is commentary,
Dave R.
November 30th, 2010
7:15 pm
AmVet, from Wiki:
“It is based on the Twitter feed S#it My Dad Says, created by Justin Halpern and consisting of quotes from his father, Sam.”
Looks like it is. I hadn’t known about the Twitter feed until I looked it up. All I know is Shatner is as funny as it gets.
BADA BING
November 30th, 2010
7:15 pm
Yeah, let’m in. Those old VFW lodges need redecorating anyway.
md
November 30th, 2010
7:16 pm
“TGT, did he free the slaves under his own control?”
Sounds like Warren Buffet………..
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
7:16 pm
TGT
But…but…can’t put that chapter in the new history being written as we speak by Milan Kundera’s Professor Hubl’s replacements…pack your bags for the trip across the Desert of Organized Forgetting…
AmVet
November 30th, 2010
7:19 pm
Yep, that’s the one, Dave.
It is well worth the money if you ever see it in a bookstore.
And being a child of the 60s, I’ve always loved (most of) Shatner’s work.
*Especially* after this…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UdBlZzuadLQ
Common Sense isn't very Common
November 30th, 2010
7:20 pm
Question? When a marine is wounded does he ask for a straight NAVAL CORPSMAN or just CORPSMAN.
AmVet
November 30th, 2010
7:21 pm
Warren Buffet has slaves?!
@@
November 30th, 2010
7:22 pm
BADA:
You’ve got a great sense of humor. Do YOU have hair?
Mick
November 30th, 2010
7:23 pm
dave r
Trust me, it burns me to pay it but with the tivo, the twelve bucks lets me program. Boardwalk empire intertwines the politics in atlantic city after prohabition becomes law of the land. What kind of congress was that? Anyway, pretty decent story telling with gratuitous violence laced in…not bad.
TGT
November 30th, 2010
7:24 pm
Pay attention Jay: “…the laws in Virginia were designed to discourage and prevent the emancipation of slaves. The loophole which finally allowed Washington to circumvent Virginia law was by emancipating his slaves on his death, which he did.”
Jay
November 30th, 2010
7:26 pm
And I don’t mean to imply that I would have done any better than Washington under the same circumstances. We are all trapped to a degree by the mindset of our times, and moral perfection is not an option granted any of us. The best we can do is stretch our contemporary mindset as far as possible and leave the world a better, more humane place.
Men such as Washington and Jefferson did that. But I just don’t think it’s legitimate to try to justify our own prejudices by citing theirs.
BADA BING
November 30th, 2010
7:26 pm
I have hair, but it is abandoning it’s post pretty quickly. I am glad I wore it long in my youth.
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
7:26 pm
TGT, JAY
Before condemning George Washington and the other slaveholders among the founding fathers, a review of the laws surrounding emancipation should be taken into consideration as well as the prevailing lines of thought in the time and place…
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
7:30 pm
JAY
@ 7:26
I had not read this post when I made my last comment…I will agree with much of what you said.
BADA BING
November 30th, 2010
7:31 pm
If you were alive at the time of Jefferson and Wasington and had the money, you would have had slaves, too. You would have worn a wig, and smelled as bad as everyone else. In short, you would have followed societal norms at the time. Things are not pretty in real life, grow up people.
Jay
November 30th, 2010
7:31 pm
Yes, TGT.
From the same Wikipedia article that you cite:
“Prior to 1782, Virginia law prohibited slave owners from emancipating slaves. The only exception being for “meritorious service” and only at the approval of the Governor and his council. This law was repealed by the 1782 law allowing slave emancipation by will or deed. Washington never manumitted any slaves by deed after the liberal 1782 law was passed, with the exception of his will.
Washington’s failure to act publicly upon his growing private misgivings about slavery during his lifetime is seen by some historians as a tragically missed opportunity. The major reason Washington did not emancipate his slaves after the 1782 law and prior to his death was because of the financial costs involved.”
Doggone/GA
November 30th, 2010
7:33 pm
Jay – I would add that it’s not fair to judge those men, at that time and in that place, by the moral norms they made possible (today) when they wrote and defended the Constitution…but which they knew they would never be able to meet in their own lifetimes.
Dave R.
November 30th, 2010
7:34 pm
AmVet, good one. How about his SNL skit, ‘Get a Life!”
http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x930vt_william-shatner-snl-skit-get-a-life_fun
md
November 30th, 2010
7:35 pm
Always loved Shatner’s “gun control”….
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e0D78JtxmqI
Honu
November 30th, 2010
7:38 pm
AtAt @ 4:01p — your reason for posting the thong photo was??? Your and Scout’s heads are going to explode when DADT is finally repealed. And why do you and Josef always (I)nsert (S)tupid (H)ere in all of your conversations?
Dave R.
November 30th, 2010
7:38 pm
Mick, I just remember when HBO stood for Home Box Office. They have too much non-movie programming in my opinion. I used to watch some of their stuff when I traveled and was overnight in hotel rooms, and it didn’t do much for me.
md
November 30th, 2010
7:38 pm
You disappoint me Am, you go and rant about corps on a daily basis, and then have to ask if Buffet has slaves…………
But my post was in reference to walking the walk.
Jay
November 30th, 2010
7:40 pm
I agree, Doggone. I could never understand why prominent historians were so quick to claim that a great man such as Jefferson could never have consorted with Sally Hemings. I have great admiration for Jefferson, but of course he did. She was by all accounts beautiful, and he was a young widower. The claim that he was somehow above all that made no sense.
Dave R.
November 30th, 2010
7:41 pm
md, Denny Crane was one of the best characters on Boston Legal, and only Shatner could make him come alive.
The guy earned an Emmy award for that character as well.
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
7:41 pm
HONU
Why ISH? I usually use a smiley face when I’m being lighthearted so folks won’t take me too seriously on whatever it is I’m saying (necessary here I’ve learned the hard way), but @@ doesn’t like icons, so I put in ISH (insert smile here) out of deference to her preference…
Doggone/GA
November 30th, 2010
7:46 pm
“The claim that he was somehow above all that made no sense.”
It never did to me either…and she was his dead wife’s half-sister, and while legally a slave she was pale skinned. Not that that has anything to do with it, but socially – in his time – it was a more acceptable form of exploitation than if she had been dark. And he did take some responsibility for her children, to the best he could given the times and the social norms within which he lived.
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
7:47 pm
JAOn Sally Hemmings and Jefferson…why do we not concede that this was most probably a tender relationship between consenting adults, bound by the strictures of time and place…? It happened a lot. I had my own affairs with men who couldn’t given time and place be that idealistic version and, yes, even if it was kept “hidden,” it was still one of respect and dignity…
Doggone/GA
November 30th, 2010
7:49 pm
“why do we not concede that this was most probably a tender relationship between consenting adults, bound by the strictures of time and place”
Josef – it may have been consenting as far as was possible, but even for that time and place it was exploitative. She was, after all, a slave…and the children she bore were slaves. Jeffereson promised to free them when he died, and he did, but if you think that wasn’t a sword hanging over her head…you need to learn more about Mothers and their children.
Disgusted
November 30th, 2010
7:50 pm
In order to keep the goodies that so many like — like the pre-existing conditions, the insurance companies will have to be paid by the parts that everyone hates — the part about everybody having to have it.
The only reason for requiring everyone to be covered is that insurance relies on a spreading of the risk. Right now, the cost of health insurance is higher than it should be because young, healthy people who do not receive employer insurance coverage opt out, leaving an older, less healthy group among which to spread the risk. If those young, healthy people are required to have health insurance, the risk posed by a cancer patient or a person with some other dread disease is spread over a much larger pool, making the cost of that person miniscule in relation to the total pool. If anything, the mandatory coverage provision should even lower insurance costs.
If you cannot understand that concept, you have no business writing about the HC law and its provisions. In short, mandatory coverage is one reason that the insurance companies have been willing to accept the law, albeit grudgingly. If you remove that and then leave the ban on pre-existing conditions provisions in place, the insurance companies will be screaming bloody murder.
Jay
November 30th, 2010
7:50 pm
Oh, and Josef? Nice Kundera reference.
Dave R.
November 30th, 2010
7:51 pm
“I have great admiration for Jefferson, but of course he did.”
Jay the jury is still out on that count. It is just as likely that a brother or one of the brothers sons could have been responsible. Either way, I don’t discount the allegation, nor do I care if it is true or not. Unless you were there, “Of course he did” doesn’t cut it.
@@
November 30th, 2010
7:53 pm
Honu:
AtAt @ 4:01p — your reason for posting the thong photo was???
Because there are gay men who wear leather thongs in public?
Go back and read my initial post. I’m not opposed to the repeal. I do, however, predict there will be unintended consequences with which we’ll have to deal.
“Stupid”, Honu?
Being a bit judgmental without just cause, are you not?
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
7:53 pm
Doggone
And I think you are taking the term “exploitative” a bit far “even for that time and place” and judging it on our weltanschauung of today…I’ll go back to my own example…looking at some of those men in my life back then, you could make the same claim given our viewpoints 40 years down the line…
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
7:56 pm
JAY
Glad you like that one! I just finished rereading “The Book of Laughter and Forgetting” for the umpteenth time…
Doggone/GA
November 30th, 2010
7:57 pm
“And I think you are taking the term “exploitative” a bit far “even for that time and place” and judging it on our weltanschauung of today”
No, I’m not. Slavery is, and always was exploitive. Bring sex and children into it and even any true affection that might have existed doesn’t negate that it is inherently an exploitative relationship. And Jefferson knew it, but I choose to believe that he truly did have affection for her to the extent he could…and that he wrote “all men are created equal” because he knew from personal experience that while all of us are CREATED equal, we don’t live in a world where we ARE equal.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
7:59 pm
Sorry…I had to run out to vote and to go to the grocery store…then got home, put away the groceries and realized I forgot what I went to the grocery store to buy. Went back out to the grocery store and hit a freakin tv…27″ tv…wtf?!
Any way…
USMC Dawg,
“Oh my Gosh, you guys are taking it a little far aren’t you.
I stated an opinion from my experience and then you lashed out at me as homophobic.”
Let me see here:
“Uh Oh!!!! Here comes the “Nazi Gay Flag”!!!”
“They will start segregating themselves as being “Gay” Marines and wearing Rainbow attire, etc. because they are narcissistic.”
Others have handled it admirably, but here we go:
Yeah…all you did was state your opinion…poor thing is just misunderstood. Seems to me like you can dish a load of bs that you just can’t quite seem able to backup…and now you’re misunderstood.
And let’s be clear…the only person that used the word homophobic is you…but I guess you know yourself better than we do.
@@
November 30th, 2010
8:00 pm
RW, if you’re out there, is this the same Honu that used to frequent your blog?
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
8:02 pm
Scout,
“2) If a women going through an airport checkpoint has “the right” NOT to be searched by a man, doesn’t a straight man have the same right regarding a gay man?”
Oooo..oooo…let me guess…it has something to do with pedophilia and gay people? Am I close?
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
8:02 pm
Doggone
Using that same argument, and I will buy it for my purposes here, the same may be said for heterosexual relationships which are inherently exploitative…and “even any true affection that might have existed” doesn’t negate that…
md
November 30th, 2010
8:02 pm
“Bring sex and children into it and even any true affection that might have existed doesn’t negate that it is inherently an exploitative relationship.”
I’d have to say if it was “true affection”, then exploitation would be a moot point. It was what it was just as it is what it is as far as the environment goes.
@@
November 30th, 2010
8:02 pm
China is set to increase taxes on foreign companies Dec. 1.
Where will they go now?
BADA BING
November 30th, 2010
8:03 pm
Whiners, get over your hang up with discrimination. Old people are discriminated against, fat people, ugly people, poor people. These people don’t have support groups to guarantee their rights. I want to go out with Kate Beckensale and Jennifer Anniston, but I am not rich enough, young enough, or famous enough to attract them. Do I have to sue them or march in the streets for my right to date them. Reality sucks man, grow a pair.
Dave R.
November 30th, 2010
8:04 pm
“And Jefferson knew it”
I know you’re old, Doggone, but even I don’t think you were alive in 1800, much less knew Jefferson personally.
Hillbilly Deluxe
November 30th, 2010
8:09 pm
George Washington and Thomas Jefferson were flawed men, just like every other man of their age and every man of any age.
Dave R.
November 30th, 2010
8:10 pm
And AmVet, let’s not forget Shatner’s first foray into comedy as the only guest star to (initially) survive the opening credits of “Police Squad!”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blHwaFzzbkQ
R.I.P. Leslie Neilsen . . .
Southern Comfort
November 30th, 2010
8:11 pm
267 pages and 10 months study to justify a change in policy, such change being fully protected under the Constitution they arguably fight for . . .
That true equality has to be studied at all is a black mark against the military and the government that supports it.
AMEN!! I couldn’t have said it better Dave. This whole discussion on DADT has made me wonder what it was like when integration was first being considered in the military. I guess those who “revere” the Constitution really don’t believe in it, or else this wouldn’t even be a discussion.
Doggone/GA
November 30th, 2010
8:12 pm
“Using that same argument, and I will buy it for my purposes here, the same may be said for heterosexual relationships which are inherently exploitative…and “even any true affection that might have existed” doesn’t negate that”
Only if there is an exploitive situation. Because it could be said that ALL relationships are inherently exploitive…but when the exploitation is essentially equal between the partners, then it’s acceptable to them and to society. The “issue” is when there is an inherently unbalanced aspect to the exploitation.
Undoubtedly, Sally Hemings was able to exploit the (presumed) affection between her and Jefferson to put herself and her children in a higher station of life then they might have otherwise occupied. But it is also undoubted that the balance of exploitation was vitually ALL on Jefferson, since he owned her and her children. He could leave her behind…she did not have that option.
Moderate Line
November 30th, 2010
8:12 pm
The major reason Washington did not emancipate his slaves after the 1782 law and prior to his death was because of the financial costs involved.”
++++++++
Jay can read the minds of dead people. What interesting gift.
Jay
November 30th, 2010
8:12 pm
A fair point, Dave R.
Doggone/GA
November 30th, 2010
8:13 pm
“I know you’re old, Doggone, but even I don’t think you were alive in 1800, much less knew Jefferson personally”
Try to keep up…we’re having an adult discussion.
Dave R.
November 30th, 2010
8:14 pm
WOW! Getting kudos on multiple fronts tonight!
Be still my beating heart . . .
AmVet
November 30th, 2010
8:16 pm
md, that’s me, one big disappointment! But certainly you knew that before now.
I am somewhat amazed that anybody could take the social mores, and even concepts of justice, of 230 years ago and somehow try to equate them with today’s.
Hillbilly Deluxe
November 30th, 2010
8:16 pm
SoCo
Daddy was in the Army just as integration was about to come about. He mustered out not long before it took place but he said the officers told everybody, that when the order comes down, “This is how it’s going to be, whether anybody likes it or not”.
Honu
November 30th, 2010
8:17 pm
Yep, same one AtAt — why drag him into this?
I’ll ask again — your reason for linking to a photo of a guy in a thong when the blog subject is repealing DADT?
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
8:18 pm
Moderate
No, this time the Bruin’s not reading the minds of the long dead…it’s part of the record…
Doggone
Question, why are you not willing to concede that the affection was real and mutual? It’s way to complicated to go into here, but the story of Granny’s cousin Sir Moses Ezequiel and the love of his life is a case I go back to in my own contemplation of this issue…
md
November 30th, 2010
8:18 pm
“Where will they go now?”
Close your eyes, spin the globe, and stop it with your finger. 99% of the planet has cheaper labor costs than we do……………………
Dave R.
November 30th, 2010
8:19 pm
Sorry, Doggone, but except for the sun coming up tomorrow, there are few absolutes in this world. And one of them ain’t “And Jefferson knew it”. If you want an adult conversation, act like one. You can make as many points as you wish regarding her free will or lack thereof, and whether a Jefferson (not necessarily Thomas) exploited her, but you cannot make an absolute statement such as “and Jefferson knew it” and expect to be taken seriously.
Jay
November 30th, 2010
8:20 pm
Moderate, if you reread that post, you’ll see that I was quoting a Wikipedia article, the same one that TGT had selectively quoted earlier.
Doggone/GA
November 30th, 2010
8:20 pm
“Question, why are you not willing to concede that the affection was real and mutual?”
But I am willing to concede that. I’m just not willing to agree that it changes the inherently exploitive nature of their relationship.
Mary Elizabeth
November 30th, 2010
8:20 pm
George Washington wanted to leave the nation his example of freeing his own slaves while he lived. He deeply regretted that, because his Midwestern land did not sell as he had anticipated, financially he was not able to free his slaves, as a model to others, during his lifetime. However, he did set into his will the freeing of his slaves, upon his wife’s death, as his example to his countrymen of the inherent wrong in condoning slavery within our nation.
From “Washington in His Own Words” – A Special Collector’s Edition from the Editors of American History Magazine. From Washington’s Last Will and Testament July 9, 1799:
“Item. Upon the decease of my wife, it is my will and desire that all the slaves which I hold in my own right, shall receive their freedom. . .And I do hereby expressly forbid the sale, or transportation out of the said Commonwealth, of any slave I may die possessed of, under any pretence whatsoever. And I do moreover most pointedly, and most solemnly enjoin it upon my executors hereafter named, or the survivors of them, to see that this clause respecting slaves, and every part thereof be religiously fulfilled at the epoch at which it is directed to take place, without evasion, neglect or delay, after the crops which may then be on the ground are harvested, particularly as it respects the aged and infirm; seeing that a regular and permanent fund be established for their support so long as there are subjects requiring it, not trusting to the uncertain provision to be made by individuals. And to my mulatto man William (calling himself William Lee) I give immediate freedom. . . ” Note: William Lee had served by Washington’s side throughout the Revolutionary War.
And from the book “Revolutionary Characters” by Gordon S. Wood, pp. 59 – 60:
“Washington never took the unity of the country for granted. He knew that if the Union broke apart, it would be between the northern and southern sections. In fact he told his secretary of state Edmund Randolph in 1795 that if the United States dissolved, he had made up his mind to join the North — understandable given his evolving attitude toward slavery. But he wanted nothing more than for the United States to stay together, and he remained preoccupied throughout his presidency with creating the sinews of nationhood.”
@@
November 30th, 2010
8:20 pm
For those who may be interested.
Geopolitical Journey, Part 6: Ukraine is republished with permission of STRATFOR.
Little Ukraine. Whatever will they do? Of little significance to anyone but themselves.