Pentagon officially endorses an end to DADT, anti-gay bias
The results of the Pentagon’s ten-month assessment of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell have now been released. Here’s the money quote:
“Based on all we saw and heard, our assessment is that, when coupled with the prompt implementation of the recommendations we offer below, the risk of repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell to overall military effectiveness is low. We conclude that, while a repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell will likely, in the short term, bring about some limited and isolated disruption to unit cohesion and retention, we do not believe this disruption will be widespread or long-lasting, and can be adequately addressed by the recommendations we offer below. Longer term, with a continued and sustained commitment to core values of leadership, professionalism, and respect for all, we are convinced that the U.S. military can adjust and accommodate this change, just as it has others in history.”
In remarks today, Secretary of Defense Robert Gates endorsed the report’s findings and strongly urged “the Senate to pass this legislation and send it to the president for signature before the end of this year.”
“Given the present circumstances, those that choose not to act legislatively are rolling the dice that this policy will not be abruptly overturned by the courts,” Gates said, warning that a court-imposed change would be “by far the most disruptive and damaging scenario I can imagine, and the one most hazardous to military morale, readiness and battlefield performance.”
The country is ready. The military is ready. The time for waiting has passed; the time for acting has finally come.
“For years now I have heard the word ‘Wait!’” an impatient Martin Luther King Jr. wrote from the Birmingham jail. “It rings in the ear of every Negro with piercing familiarity. This ‘Wait’ has almost always meant ‘Never.’ We must come to see, with one of our distinguished jurists, that ‘justice too long delayed is justice denied’.”
No more waiting. No more excuses.
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545 comments Add your comment
Logical Dude
November 30th, 2010
4:34 pm
USMC Dawg says “Logical Dude, You pansy” (and other stuff not directly related to the question)
I’m a military brat who would have been in the Navy, but had medical issues. Brother was a Marine also. Sorry, I’m busy working to keep up with the personal attacks. I prefer to discuss the situation rather than personal attacks that provide nothing to the discussion.
Otherwise, your arguments regarding more sexual harrassment and hate crimes are valid. I just dont’ think they’ll be as widespread as you believe. The report (that you dimisss readily) also says that these are expected consequences, but they will not be as significant as you expect.
As it says above ” will likely, in the short term, bring about some limited and isolated disruption ”
It is not the downfall of the US Military as we know it.
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
4:34 pm
jewcowboy
I’ve been meaning to ask you. What was your take on Brokeback Mountain?
Del
November 30th, 2010
4:35 pm
USMC Dawg,
I don’t think hate crimes would be a factor although there’s the potential for isolated incidents. My concern would be a drop in enlistments/re-enlistments that would impact our all volunteer military. I don’t see how the Pentagon survey result could guarantee that we would not see the unintended consequence of a serious decline in enlistments and re-enlistments along with a declining officer corps.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
4:35 pm
USMC Dawg,
“were you an extra in Brokeback Mountain?”
No, but from your previous post it sounds like you have been:
“I’ve been there and EXPERIENCED.”
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
4:35 pm
“Dawg…what have you experienced? Harrassment? Hate Crime? As victim or perpetrator?
Or was it a homosexual experience?”
That’s Cute “Keep up the good plight”
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
4:38 pm
jewcowboy,
I am noticing that you are good at avoiding common sense by throwing slurs and changing the subject.
AmVet
November 30th, 2010
4:39 pm
OK, for all you guys like me, who grew up with one of these, today is the 200th birthday of Oliver Fisher Winchester…
http://tinyurl.com/2b7yky9
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
4:39 pm
Del,
“I don’t see how the Pentagon survey result could guarantee that we would not see the unintended consequence of a serious decline in enlistments and re-enlistments along with a declining officer corps.”
Seeing as we are not recruiting 50 year olds…I really don’t see recruitment as a problem. 20 somethings could give a rat’s ass. A, a-hem, bigger problem is the fact that they are all out of shape from video games.
Dusty
November 30th, 2010
4:40 pm
Maybe the armed forces in Iraq and Afghanistan should have a day off since nobody seems concerned about them. They are over there getting killed for their country and their country is busy at home……..discussing new policies that MAY cause a few problems. A few problems!!!
Yeah, sure, that’s all they need is a FEW more problems with ieds underfoot and snipers stationed and a year since being home and they will ONLY have a few more problems. Well, whoopee!!
It is high time a little more concern for those ALREADY IN THE MILITARY fighting including gays, not who might join in the distant future. The only flag that is raised is the American flag and I get tired of those who forget that. We need to fight and win our wars now and that should be our main directive without sideline distractions. .Is that hard to understand??. . .
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
4:40 pm
USMC Dawg,
“I am noticing that you are good at avoiding common sense by throwing slurs and changing the subject.”
and Brokeback Mountain is the subject…
RW-(the original)
November 30th, 2010
4:41 pm
JohnnyReb,
There are lots of ways you can be denied for a pre-existing condition that has nothing to do with gaming the system. Having an employer based system creates the problem most of the time. Let’s say you have a job that provides insurance and you come down with some malady that is covered by your insurance. You and your insurance company play by the rules for years but then the company goes under. Now you have no insurance and a pre-existing condition so it has to be addressed.
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
4:41 pm
Del, you are correct at 4:35.
I am merely scratching the surface. But you know just as well as i do that when someone gets in a fight, they are going to CRY “HATE” crime because the guy that hit him said the word “FAG”.
Do Marines fight each other, you betcha.
Keep up the good fight!
November 30th, 2010
4:41 pm
Dawg… You claim some “experience” that puts you in a better position to have an “informed opinion” that differs from that of the Secretary of Defense and a lot of other military men, civilian leaders, and average citizens. So let’s be clear what that is. And please don’t tell me its because you have served in the military…..let’s get to the real “experience”.
Otherwise, just admit, your opinion with its underlying bias is not supported by any number of people who do have information to assess the impact on the military and its policies.
Hillbilly Deluxe
November 30th, 2010
4:42 pm
AmVet
He made some fine firearms. The most recognizable is probably the Model 73 but I’m partial to the Model 12 pump shotguns, myself.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
4:42 pm
Dusty,
“We need to fight and win our wars now and that should be our main directive without sideline distractions. .”
We’ve been fighting “our wars” for about a decade now…do you really ever see an end in sight to something called “The War on Terrorism”?
Bosch
November 30th, 2010
4:42 pm
Reb,
Maybe I’m just reading your post wrong, but your 4:32 is a bit confusing — are you criticizing Cantor for wanting to keep the pre-exisiting part of the new Health Care Bill?
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
4:43 pm
“and Brokeback Mountain is the subject…”
No jew, but while you were at it I joined in. Douche.
Ragnar Danneskjöld
November 30th, 2010
4:43 pm
From page 73:
“Among the Services, the Marines were consistently more negative in their responses
about the effect of repeal. The combat arms communities in both the Army and the Marine
Corps were also more negative about the effect of repeal than others in their Services.183
For example, as discussed earlier, approximately 44% of all Service members said
that their unit’s effectiveness “in a field environment or out at sea” would be negatively
impacted by repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell. Nearly 60% of respondents in the Marine Corps
and in Army combat arms said they believed there would be a negative impact on their unit’s
effectiveness in this context; among Marine combat arms the number was 67%. (See Table
15.)
“Likewise, when asked how repeal of Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell would impact the readiness of
their immediate unit, 21% of Service members overall said that it would have a negative
impact. Among Marine Corps respondents this number was 32%; among Army combat
arms it was 35%; and among Marine combat arms 43%….”
My analysis is that only a leftist would think you can fly against the wishes of 1/3 of your actual fighting force with no effect. As with all leftist initiatives, that is a disaster in the making.
Bosch
November 30th, 2010
4:43 pm
“and Brokeback Mountain is the subject…”
jewcowboy,
or is it sexual harrasment and hate crimes?
@@
November 30th, 2010
4:44 pm
Dusty:
I feel duly chastised. I do keep up with what’s going on in Afghanistan and Iraq though.
You’re correct when you say it and they have taken a backseat. I blame it on the media.
Bosch
November 30th, 2010
4:44 pm
jewcowboy,
I guess douches are now the subject?
Ragnar Danneskjöld
November 30th, 2010
4:44 pm
Apologies, should have said page 74.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
4:44 pm
josef nix,
“What was your take on Brokeback Mountain?”
Annie Proulx’s short story was very good, but the movie was rather boring. Good cinematography and decent acting, though.
md
November 30th, 2010
4:46 pm
“Now you have no insurance and a pre-existing condition so it has to be addressed.”
Along with the “group” rates………..hc had problems, but didn’t need 1200+ pages of crap to “fix” it. Look for another 1200+ pages down the road to fix the fix………….
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
4:46 pm
Bosch,
“I guess douches are now the subject?”
Well USMC Dawg seems to be the resident expert…maybe that is his experience.
Common Sense isn't very Common
November 30th, 2010
4:46 pm
SoCo
Be careful, or you’ll be asked to come out of your ivory tower. If I had an ivory tower, I would have came out of it after I asked that question
———————————
I don’t look good in ivory I’m more of a Deep Purple kind of guy LOL
JohnnyReb
November 30th, 2010
4:48 pm
If JohnnyReb was a Congressman, I would vote to repeal DADT. I continue to have some concerns, but if the guys and girls in the ranks think it will be OK, then it will. Every man and woman in the military, since it’s all volunteer, is a hero to me. None should be punished for their sexual preference as long as it’s exercise does not harm the corp. I don’t understand why people are gay, but there are a lot of other things God created that I also don’t understand. Let the first rock fly. On this subject, it will no longer be from me.
BlahBlahBlah
November 30th, 2010
4:48 pm
The last excuse of the intolerant portion of the right wing has been laid to rest.
Repeal it now.
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
4:48 pm
“Otherwise, just admit, your opinion with its underlying bias is not supported by any number of people who do have information to assess the impact on the military and its policies.”
No “Keep”, you sit here on a blog and paste charts a polls and pontificate. really, What the “F” do you know about the military?
I was on the front line many times in a Combat Arms unit. I would say my years in the Marine Corps are better than your Pseudo intellectual drivel that you pass as intelligence here on a blog.
You can paste charts and polls, but they are not always reality.
So just admit that you don’t have a clue about the military and take your foot out of your mouth.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
4:49 pm
Ragnar Danneskjöld,
“My analysis is that only a leftist would think you can fly against the wishes of 1/3 of your actual fighting force with no effect. ”
I have faith in the people serving in our armed forces…sorry you don’t seem to.
Bosch
November 30th, 2010
4:49 pm
Reb,
” but there are a lot of other things God created that I also don’t understand”
Giraffes. For me, it’s giraffes.
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
4:50 pm
johnnyreb
Would that you were in Congress…you’re still MY hero…
@@
November 30th, 2010
4:50 pm
jewcowboy,
I guess douches are now the subject?
Leave it to Bosch to avoid the front lines and wage war from the rear.
Little twit!
Ragnar Danneskjöld
November 30th, 2010
4:50 pm
Dear USMC Dawg @ 4:48, the report data supports everything you say here. Only the politically-dictated conclusions, quoted by our host, differ.
AmVet
November 30th, 2010
4:50 pm
Yep, HD, that lever action made life a whole lot easier to squeeze off several shots than that bolt action!
As for shotguns, my dad had this side by side 12 gauge thing, I think it was foreign made and possibly war vintage.
As it seemingly weighed about as much as me at the time, it was a real bear to shoot! But man, it put a heckuva hole in anything it hit…
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
4:51 pm
“Well USMC Dawg seems to be the resident expert…maybe that is his experience.”
Easily said while sitting behind your computer….
Bosch
November 30th, 2010
4:52 pm
@@,
That’s twice today you’ve tried to bait me, are you starved for attention? Is Semper not home from the slums?
RW-(the original)
November 30th, 2010
4:52 pm
md,
I hope I didn’t leave the impression I’m for that health care monstrosity. I was just pointing out that pre-existing condition doesn’t just mean waiting until you get sick and then buying insurance.
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
4:52 pm
BOSCH/johnnyreb
“G-d in H-s wisdom made the fly.
And then forgot to tell us why..”
Mine..? The Platypus..and the French
Dusty
November 30th, 2010
4:52 pm
jewcowboy,
If our troops are fighting for 25 years I still think we should give 100% support. Alll the representatives of our people voted for these war efforts. Have you stopped supporting our current efforts because they take too long?
Bosch
November 30th, 2010
4:53 pm
“Easily said while sitting behind your computer….”
Says the guy…..sitting behind a computer.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
4:53 pm
USMC Dawg,
“I was on the front line many times in a Combat Arms unit.”
Did I see “was” in there…versus the people that are currently serving and currently serving leaders…gotcha.
“So just admit that you don’t have a clue about the military and take your foot out of your mouth.”
Admit you don’t have a clue about gay people and take your head out of your ass.
Ragnar Danneskjöld
November 30th, 2010
4:53 pm
Dear cowboy @ 4:49, with all due respect, I think I am the one who appreciates our military, and you are the one who would cram it down their collective throat.
Change needs to be managed when 2/3s of your most important component opposes the change. While you rely on faith, I cling to reason.
Bosch
November 30th, 2010
4:53 pm
josef,
I was GONNA say the platypus too! But I decided the giraffe was much more complexing.
RW-(the original)
November 30th, 2010
4:53 pm
Considering the topic I’m not so sure about the wording of waging war from the rear.
Logical Dude
November 30th, 2010
4:54 pm
Ragnar, what are the Navy and Air Force numbers?
Otherwise, what causes the perceived “loss in unit’s effectiveness”?
a) because gays can’t fight?
b) because gays are less effective?
c) because knowing someone is gay makes straight people less effective?
d) because knowing someone is gay makes straight people unable to fight?
A) and B) are invalid because there are gays currently serving.
So, as I see it, it’s because some in the military are just uncomfortable with serving with gay people. GET OVER IT, you’re all Americans and can fight side by side defending your country.
Ask the same questions 70 years ago about serving with Blacks, and you’ll see a similar (or even more deeply divided) response pattern. Integrating the military also resulted in a few isolated incidences. But once those serving realized that each person in their unit is American, everything else doesn’t matter.
Bosch
November 30th, 2010
4:55 pm
josef,
Forgot, but the fly is food for frogs….and were made knowing that someday Emily Dickinson would write a poem that has really weirded me out since the first time I read it!
JohnnyReb
November 30th, 2010
4:55 pm
RW – I personally have never experienced an inability to get insurance coverage for me or mine. I see your point in the scenario.
Bosch – yes, I’m criticizing Cantor, and so will the Tea Party folks and other conservatives.
The concern on forcing insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions is, they can’t plan for the expense. It will either drive them out of business or force rates that are astronomical. Either plays right into the hands of those that favor single payer. I do agree a situation like RW pointed out needs to be addressed, but not blanket, unbridled pre-existing coverage.
Keep up the good fight!
November 30th, 2010
4:56 pm
Dawg….1st you have NO idea what my role in the military may or may not have been or may currently be. On that subject you are completely, absolutely ignorant….
As to your experience in the military…thanks for your service but that does not make you an expert on everything military or on every branch of the military. Nor does your “unstated” CV make you an expert compared to the current top military leaders. So really, you are just blowing it out your arse and expecting everyone to salute it as part of your flag waving.
When did service in the military ever give you “intelligence” that surpasses all others?
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
4:56 pm
Dusty,
“Have you stopped supporting our current efforts because they take too long?”
Ask if I supported them to begin with. The world still moves forward despite being engaged in conflict and so does the military. Saying, “don’t do anything, b/c we are at war” is an excuse and a lame one at that.
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
4:56 pm
Ragnar Danneskjöld,
Thanks for your input.
Jay Bookman has never served his country and does not know what he is talking about, eventhough I like him.
He also cuts and pastes straight from Huffington Post, EVERYDAY. And that’s ok. I like and somehow respect Jay. I do. But he knows NOTHING about sacrificing for the country. It is easy to sit up here in his Ivory Tower and play “why not” with the very institutions that built this great country. That’s easy!
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
4:57 pm
Bosch,
“Says the guy…..sitting behind a computer.”
Dang! You beat me to it.
Bosch
November 30th, 2010
4:58 pm
Reb,
Hate to say I told you so….but I told you so….the GOP will be no different and will change nothing in the HC Bill. In order to keep the goodies that so many like — like the pre-existing conditions, the insurance companies will have to be paid by the parts that everyone hates — the part about everybody having to have it.
“Either plays right into the hands of those that favor single payer.”
Which, was the plan from the beginning.
WE WIN!!!
Ragnar Danneskjöld
November 30th, 2010
4:58 pm
Dear Logical @ 4:54, perhaps you and I are near agreement here. Air Force and Navy are much less hostile to the suggestion of integrating homosexuals into the military. Where that is the case, it makes more sense to integrate where there is less opposition – Navy and Air Force – and not into Army and Marines. The ones who do the heaviest lifting are the ones most opposed to the proposed change. It is never intelligent management to impose a broadly opposed change, rather one introduces it slowly.
Bosch
November 30th, 2010
5:01 pm
jewcowboy,
Reading through Dawg’s posts today, I’ve been scratching my head and thinking “Really? This is way too easy.”
Okay, carry on the leftie torch, I must make my exit. Farewell and adieu.
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
5:01 pm
BOSCH
Food for Frogs? Well, the DO eat snails and other weird things! No wonder they make such good wine…gotta wash it down with something…
JohnnyReb
November 30th, 2010
5:01 pm
Bosch, it’s only the beginning. I predict that in the coming days/weeks, Cantor will walk back his remarks. He will receive a lot of heat, so much so he can’t bear it.
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
5:01 pm
Keep up the good fight,
You sound pretty insecure there, buddy.
I never said I was an expert or a flag waiver, but I served and I experienced life in the Marine Corps, so I am just relaying my experience and those of my comrades.
And don’t start with intelligence, because you would go down in the first round, brutha.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
5:01 pm
Ragnar Danneskjöld,
“with all due respect, I think I am the one who appreciates our military, and you are the one who would cram it down their collective throat.”
So many euphemisms…so little time. And stop being a freakin martyr…just because someone has divergent views than you on military policy doesn’t mean they don’t appreciate the military.
“Change needs to be managed when 2/3s of your most important component opposes the change. ”
I certainly agree…and that is why we have military leaders. I have faith in them to lead service members through this change with little disruption.
RW-(the original)
November 30th, 2010
5:02 pm
WE WIN!!!
Four weeks from election 2010 is a pretty quick historical rewrite for a triple L to be making that declaration. Congrats!
josef nix
November 30th, 2010
5:02 pm
USMC
In case you don’t know, Jay’s a military brat…
Scout
November 30th, 2010
5:02 pm
Jay:
Someone may have already posted this but is there a breakdown of responses by service and/or MOS classification?
1) I believe there will be a big difference between Air Force compupter specialists and Marine Corps infantry.
2) The report overall doesn’t surprise me. Our culture has been changing for the worse for a long time now.
3) Let’s see what Congress does (or does not do).
Logical Dude
November 30th, 2010
5:03 pm
Ragnar says: “It is never intelligent management to impose a broadly opposed change, rather one introduces it slowly”
Yeah, Gays were allowed in the military in 1993, so it’s been almost 20 years.
It’s time for the next step. Allow the gays to serve openly and honorably and honestly.
Bosch
November 30th, 2010
5:03 pm
Reb,
You are probably right. The GOP are going to have a hell of a time negotiating the agreements with the insurance companies….their masters.
People like the goodies in the bill but haven’t figured out that they must be paid for.
G’night and sleep tight and pleasantries to you!!!
Ragnar Danneskjöld
November 30th, 2010
5:03 pm
Dear Logical @ 4:54, I did not address the “rationale” you proffer because it was silly, especially your analogy to black integration. We had a long history of courageous fighting by segregated black units long before integration. Even the integration of females into the military – which has not gone nearly so smoothly as the racial integration – had a precedent of service. Perhaps you would agree that we ought to form a unit, to be known as the Fighting Pansies, exclusively homosexual, and permit them to demonstrate courage under fire. It would thereafter be much easier to integrate homosexuals.
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
5:04 pm
Logical, do you even know what a “Combat Arms” unit is and how it is different from other units?
This isn’t a multiple choice question.
Paul
November 30th, 2010
5:04 pm
JohnnyReb
“The concern on forcing insurance companies to cover pre-existing conditions is, they can’t plan for the expense.”
Seems to me the system without covering preexisting conditions is the one companies can’t plan for. See, everyone signed up without preexisting conditions is an unknown. Will they get a serious illness? Will the illness require lifelong care? How old when they get it?
With preexisting, they’re dealing with a known – they know what it is and what the treatment regimen is.
Bosch
November 30th, 2010
5:04 pm
RW,
I was speaking for us that wanted single payer…..we have had a plan all along.
Bwahahahahahahhahaha….ha..ha. ha. HA!
Dusty
November 30th, 2010
5:04 pm
Another thing jewcowboy,
Ragnar has a son in the military who has an outstanding record. I believe his interest in the military is a bit more focused and faiathful than yours. He has also read the suggested regulations. I don’t think you have.
Scout
November 30th, 2010
5:05 pm
josef @ 5:02
I’m not talking about Jay per se, but sometimes “military brats” hate the military the most since they experienced the transfers, etc. without having agreed to it.
Ragnar Danneskjöld
November 30th, 2010
5:05 pm
Dear Cowboy @ 5:01, “I certainly agree…and that is why we have military leaders. I have faith in them to lead service members through this change with little disruption.” So, if Petraeus comes back and asks for 20 years to accomplish the job, you are on board?
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
5:06 pm
Bosch,
Remind me…What makes you so smart?
Southern Comfort
November 30th, 2010
5:06 pm
JReb for Congress!!!
Common Sense
Deep Purple??? Just as long as it’s not too hazy!!
jcb
Here’s a linkee for you.
http://www.visittex.com/images/headup.jpg
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
5:06 pm
Ragnar Danneskjöld,
“So, if Petraeus comes back and asks for 20 years to accomplish the job, you are on board?”
As long he has the data to back it up…sure.
Scout
November 30th, 2010
5:06 pm
USMC Dawg:
They can never know because they haven’t been there to “see the elephant”.
India 3/4
1967-68
Paul
November 30th, 2010
5:07 pm
“do you even know what a “Combat Arms” unit is and how it is different from other units?”
While a unit designation’s nice and all, I consistently see estimates that less than ten percent of military ever see combat. And that includes field-graders who fly into Qatar for a few days to get it in their records (and to qualify for tax free pay, the scofflaws) they were in a combat zone.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
5:07 pm
Southern Comfort @ 5.06,
Logical Dude
November 30th, 2010
5:08 pm
USMC Dawg : “do you even know what a “Combat Arms” unit is and how it is different from other units”
So, guys that carry guns are more scared of gay people? They are less able to fight next to a gay person?
Paul
November 30th, 2010
5:08 pm
“Bosch,
Remind me…What makes you so smart?”
Offhand, I’d say his brain and how he uses it.
Others in the general population, however…….
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
5:08 pm
Look, if they change the law and allow gays to “openly” be gay, then we’ll manage.
But our fighting force will NOT be as EFFECTIVE. It won’t be the end of the world though.
Ragnar Danneskjöld
November 30th, 2010
5:08 pm
As friend Dusty observes @ 5:04, I have an interest. My son is a genius, and a tolerant soul, and he is the sort of leader who could manage such change. But managing change does not mean “putting everyone together and hoping for the best.” That would make no more sense than for Obama to tell democrats in Congress to balance the budget today. Planning for a big change takes more time than implementing it.
Keep up the good fight!
November 30th, 2010
5:10 pm
Dawg…..hard for you to relate the real experiences of your comrades because you are not them and you dont know how many of them were homosexual or not….
As for intelligence…you sound very insecure about yours….so what next? Are you smarter than a 5th grader at 20 paces?
Really, if you are so intelligent, it would be nice if you start reflecting that intelligence in your posts.
Southern Comfort
November 30th, 2010
5:11 pm
Bosch is smart?
j/k
RW-(the original)
November 30th, 2010
5:12 pm
Bosch,
That plot setting us on a path to single payer started long before this latest HCR bill.
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
5:13 pm
Paul, you just showed your ignorance about the military.
And it’s okay, most people don’t know what a Combat Arms unit is.
I am not merely talking about a “designation”, sweetheart.
How about using your brain and admit you don’t have a clue about the military. It’s ok there are subjects I am not experienced in, but I am SMART enough not to ACT like I know what is what.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
5:13 pm
USMC Dawg,
“But our fighting force will NOT be as EFFECTIVE.”
Specifically how…not generalities…not innuendo..not stereotypes…specifics on exactly how allowing service members to serve honestly without lying to their fellow members would our fighting force become less effective.
Left wing management
November 30th, 2010
5:13 pm
“The country is ready. The military is ready. The time for waiting has passed; the time for acting has finally come. ”
And the GOP is ready for a knife battle.
Thus spake Zarathustra and blinked …
Logical Dude
November 30th, 2010
5:13 pm
Scout says “sometimes “military brats” hate the military ”
Not sure I can agree with you there. Having lived as a military brat up until college, almost everyone of my peers would have joined the military or supports the military fully.
Not sure if it’s just a Naval thing, since I wasn’t around many Army or Air Force brats. But the considerable majority suppor the military.
It’s the clueless politicians and what they want to do with the military that aggravates me. LOL
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
5:15 pm
And the answer is…. from Logical Dude:
“So, guys that carry guns are more scared of gay people? They are less able to fight next to a gay person?”
Wrong answer… you can go back to the bong now. Thanks for playing.
Dusty
November 30th, 2010
5:15 pm
Get it straight, jewcowboy,
I said that I did not think distraction during combat time was the way to help the military. Don’t start twisting what I post.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
5:16 pm
Ragnar Danneskjöld,
“Planning for a big change takes more time than implementing it.”
I certainly agree with that. But, regardless of an individuals feelings, this will happen. And just like I am sure there are surely currently some white soldiers who are uncomfortable serving alongside black soldiers…it will be their choice to continue serving or get out. And there will be plenty of 20 year old recruits right behind them to don’t give a crap.
Scout
November 30th, 2010
5:16 pm
Logical Dude:
I hear you but I said “sometimes” and support for is a lot different from wanting to join up.
Paul @ 5:07:
You are correct about the 10% but that is where it matters the most. In that kind of environment where men are living so close together, etc.
Logical Dude
November 30th, 2010
5:17 pm
USMC Dawg, “back to the bong now”
As much as I am for legalizing, I do not partake LOL
But can you give specifics on why a Combat Arms unit would be less effective if the people in the unit knew that someone in the unit was gay?
Jesus Christ
November 30th, 2010
5:17 pm
Robert Gates just called out John McCain on whether he’s going to be the next version of George Wallace for the History Books.
Logical Dude
November 30th, 2010
5:19 pm
Scout says “I hear you but I said “sometimes” and support for is a lot different from wanting to join up.”
I guess I read “sometimes” as “usually”.
But I can’t recall a military brat that hates the military. I may find one of them one of these days.
USMC Dawg
November 30th, 2010
5:19 pm
Jewcowboy,
I am not going to write an essay for you. No you don’t get colorful charts and graphs.
I merely was stating an opinion from my experience as a leader in the Marines.
But let’s start with it disrupts esprit de corps that units need to be effective in the field.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
5:23 pm
Dusty,
Why don’t you get it straight youtself.
““We need to fight and win our wars now and that should be our main directive without sideline distractions. .” ~ Dusty
” We’ve been fighting “our wars” for about a decade now…do you really ever see an end in sight to something called “The War on Terrorism”?” ~ jewcowboy
““Have you stopped supporting our current efforts because they take too long?” ~ Dusty
“Ask if I supported them to begin with. The world still moves forward despite being engaged in conflict and so does the military. Saying, “don’t do anything, b/c we are at war” is an excuse and a lame one at that.” ~ jewcowboy
How did I twist your words? You were stating that we shouldn’t change anything b/c we were in 2 wars…which we have been for almost a decade…I was pointing out the world moves on despite us being in 2 wars. Attitudes change and if the military wants to keep getting recruits to fight those it had better change with society.
Paul
November 30th, 2010
5:25 pm
USMC Dawg
“Paul, you just showed your ignorance about the military.”
How? Did I not distinguish between a designation given to a unit, an organization (regiment or wing, for example) and the people within that unit who actually see combat?
What about that demonstrates ignorance?
Plenty of guys in combat arms units are REMFs. That’s a military term, isn’t it? Golly gee, I guess I know something!!!.
Oh, and when you speak of a Combat Arms unit, are you speaking of only one or two branches of the military, because, just maybe, you are ignorant about the others, hmmmmm?
“Sweetheart?!!?”
Scout
Sure. But again, there are Navy guys and AF guys who are in combat arms-designated ‘units’ who actually see combat but have entirely different living conditions than groundpounders. Seriously, seems to me the assumption on part of straight guys is the gay guys just won’t be able to control themselves when they see the straight guys. THAT, I think, says more about the views of the straight guys when it comes to self control.
TaxPayer
November 30th, 2010
5:26 pm
I thought @@ claimed that she would never, ever take another’s post and use it to attack another. Well! Never sure is a short span of time.
jewcowboy
November 30th, 2010
5:26 pm
USMC Dawg,
“No you don’t get colorful charts and graphs.”
Meaning I don’t have anything to back up my position except my personal feelings…
“I merely was stating an opinion from my experience as a leader in the Marines.”
ditto…
“But let’s start with it disrupts esprit de corps that units need to be effective in the field.”
You know just saying doesn’t it make it true…and the data released today disproves your assertion.