In Gwinnett, grand jury exposes ugly truth
In Gwinnett County, developers and county commissioners have a tradition of entanglement that goes back decades.
That’s true to a degree in almost every county, of course. Developers need rezonings and other favors; commissioners need campaign funds and votes. But as documented in a new grand jury report, the symbiotic, often corrupt relationship between developers and politicians is particularly strong in Gwinnett County.
The biggest news out of the grand jury was its decision to indict Commissioner Kevin Kenerly on charges involving $1 million in alleged bribes. While its public report is largely silent about the evidence that led to Kenerly’s indictment, the report nonetheless documents case after case of “decisions involving millions of dollars made with little or no information or for the most venal reasons.”
Take, for example, the purchase of 8.3 acres from a financially troubled but well-connected developer. Gwinnett paid $1.2 million for the property, almost four times its price four years earlier, even though commissioners were told the parcel was useless as parkland without a $1 million footbridge to make it accessible.
At one point in the negotiations, then-Senior Superior Court Judge James Oxendine even summoned a county staff member to his judicial chambers and — as a favor to the property owner, a friend’s son — strong-armed the county into raising the price it paid.
According to the grand jury, in fact, the only explanation for the property purchase was “to bail out the son of an old friend of several members of the Board of Commissioners.”
While investigating another transaction, this one involving developer Marvin Hewatt, the grand jury discovered that Hewatt had given Commission Chairman Charles Bannister free use of a campaign billboard and a van — neither was reported as a contribution.
Bannister was instrumental in arranging the purchase of land from Hewatt’s firm for twice the amount set by county appraisers. He also denied meeting with Hewatt about the transaction, a claim directly contradicted by witnesses.
Rather than be indicted for perjury, Bannister resigned.
Bannister told the grand jury that he had pushed the sale in part as payback to a fellow commissioner who opposed it. As the grand jury concluded, the deal was used “to benefit a long-time friend and political supporter of Charles Bannister. Just as disturbingly, over one million dollars of taxpayer money was used to make a political point.”
The nonchalance with which Bannister, Kenerly and others used taxpayer money to reward friends and punish enemies is pretty stunning, and suggests a long-standing cultural mindset on the Gwinnett commission. The good work of the grand jury, assisted by District Attorney Danny Porter, may help alter that culture, but only if voters do their part.
For example, state law allows county commissions to use executive sessions to discuss property transactions. The theory is that public knowledge of potential land deals could drive up the cost to taxpayers.
In Gwinnett, however, secrecy was used for the opposite purpose, to hide artificially inflated prices. As a result, the grand jury recommends that all executive sessions be taped, which makes sense. The mere fact that a meeting is being recorded would discourage abuse of executive sessions for illegal or unethical purposes.
In fact, the suggestion makes so much sense that it ought to be applied to all local governments. Until such a state law can be passed, however, Gwinnett voters ought to insist that commissioners implement that safeguard on their own.
Ordinarily, two other safeguards also discourage corruption in land-use and land-acquisition decisions. The first is a reliance on professional staff to produce decisions grounded in fact and law; the second is the necessity of getting a majority of commissioners, not just one, to back a decision.
In Gwinnett County, both safeguards were circumvented. Staff was given little input into property deals, the grand jury found, leaving decisions to be made on a political basis.
Through a practice known as “district courtesy,” commissioners also gave each other complete leeway on decisions affecting their district, making each commissioner a king or queen of their piece of the county, without real oversight.
Apparently, that made it easy to forget that they are public servants, rather than royalty.
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273 comments Add your comment
USinUK
October 29th, 2010
7:31 am
but, Jay … SURELY this isn’t happening in GOPland – God’s country – surely this kind of thing only happens in Chicago!!
stands for decibels
October 29th, 2010
7:37 am
As someone who sees precious bits of remaining open, undeveloped land available for parkland acquisition in Gwinnett, and realizes that a lot of it will wind up as another hideous subdivision or office park rather than badly needed recreational and nature center space, and all because the funds got pissed away on these insider deals…
I’d better not say what I’d like to have done to these thieving sons of bitches.
Normal
October 29th, 2010
7:38 am
USinUK
October 29th, 2010
7:31 am
USinUK
October 29th, 2010
7:45 am
dB – I think Gwinnett needs another strip mall … they are woefully shy of them …
TaxPayer
October 29th, 2010
7:49 am
OH NOes. Not the GOPers. They don’t do nobody wrong! Do they! I would say that a good way to reduce government expenditures here in Georgia would be to arrest all the crooks in local politics but then they’d figure out a way to privatize all the jails and convert them into fancy resorts for themselves to live in on the taxpayer’s dime.
Paul
October 29th, 2010
7:52 am
Good luck.
“Apparently, that made it easy to forget that they are public servants, rather than royalty.”
That’s the crux of the matter. Too many government employees forget who they work for and who they are supposed to serve.
Road Scholar
October 29th, 2010
7:54 am
I find it interesting that Kenerly’s party affiliation has been left out of ALL the AJC’s articles concerning this issue. Same as Bannister. I know they are from Gwinnett, which is primarily Republican; am I to assume all elected officials in Gwinnett are Repubs? I have e-mail the articles’ authors with NO response concerning this issue.
Is the AJC turning over a “new leaf”? or are their reporters just lazy? Or is this apart of being “politically correct” during an election?
USinUK
October 29th, 2010
7:56 am
Road – I could be wrong, but I didn’t think you ran with a party affiliation when you are at the city / county level … ???
NowReally
October 29th, 2010
7:58 am
I’m glad you finally wrote about this disaster. Some people tend to think that a GOP strong hold can do no wrong; when in fact they use their office for personal, political and financial gains. However, the biggest issue with this is that Kenerly will probably never see a jail cell or return a dime to the taxpayers of Gwinnett. I’m also disappointed that Bannister isn’t being indicted; where as he should have been. The only thing we can do in Gwinnett is to clean out the commissioners and replace them entirely, because in my opinion they were all in cahoots.
stands for decibels
October 29th, 2010
8:03 am
This really isn’t about national or even state-level party politics, folks, far as I can tell.
Bannister wasn’t elected because he’s GOP, Dem or Socialist Worker’s party. He was elected because he was considered a less corrupt upgrade over Wayne Hill.
godless heathen
October 29th, 2010
8:03 am
All praise the power of government.
Doggone/GA
October 29th, 2010
8:03 am
“I find it interesting that Kenerly’s party affiliation has been left out of ALL the AJC’s articles concerning this issue.”
And what I find interesting is that you care enough to mention it. A scumbag politician is still a scumbag, no matter what “side” they are on.
USinUK
October 29th, 2010
8:06 am
Doggone — “… he’s a scumbag, but he’s *our* scumbag …”
Joe Frank
October 29th, 2010
8:07 am
Are ypu seriously contending that there are no Democratic crooks? Really?? Why make a party issue of this?
USinUK
October 29th, 2010
8:09 am
“Are ypu seriously contending that there are no Democratic crooks? ”
um. who has even implied that … ?
Balance Our Budget
October 29th, 2010
8:09 am
In 4 more days you will be able to call this GOPland for real:)
TaxPayer
October 29th, 2010
8:15 am
Are ypu seriously contending that there are no Democratic crooks?
I thought the Republican mantra was that they were all crooks. Or was it socialists… Or maybe…
Anyway. Where’s RB. Isn’t he from Gwinnett. He could probably explain how it’s all the fault of the Dems or maybe the illegal aliens that recently migrated to Gwinnett via MARTA.
stands for decibels
October 29th, 2010
8:16 am
In 4 more days you will be able to call this GOPland for real:)
Is this where I politely inform “Balance our Budget” of all the starry-eyed hopes so many of us dirty hippies had in Nov. 2006?
Doggone/GA
October 29th, 2010
8:19 am
“he’s a scumbag, but he’s *our* scumbag ”
Thank heaven he’s not mine, though. One of the smartest things I’ve even done is to stay OUT OF Gwinnette county. When I moved to this area I made SURE I didn’t even look in that county. I’d heard too many horror stories from other dog people to even consider it…and that was almost 25 years ago.
Mystified
October 29th, 2010
8:19 am
One truth that seems to be out there, is that regardless of party affiliation, power corrupts. We all have our political persuasions but one thing all citizens should be of a single mind in is demanding honesty and good behavior from those we put so much trust in. Both parties are guilty of supporting politicians with less than trustworthy ethics. Look at our Governors race. Look at the support Bill Clinton got. Look at the support Bush got.
When a politician places his self desires over his trusted office… We need to throw the bums out no matter what party they are in.
TaxPayer
October 29th, 2010
8:19 am
Off topic – Why on earth would even the most devout of Republicans want to go and pay to attend that “Seize the Day” thingie on November 9?
Road Scholar
October 29th, 2010
8:22 am
USinUK: Good morning, er Good afternoon. Yes, here in Georgia party affiliation is used for most local races.
Joe Frank: What was implied is that Gwinnett only elects repubs. Sorry you missed that!
BOB: If you’re right, I guess we may as well get ready for the NE Georgia Mafia to take over state government! Their motto: “No ethics; no clue!” Mama mia!
USinUK
October 29th, 2010
8:24 am
Road – thanks – I couldn’t quite recall
dB – 8:16 – you forget, this crowd doesn’t want to actually DO anything or HELP anyone, they just want to “throw their toys out of the pram” in a very public way
Bud Wiser
October 29th, 2010
8:25 am
No mention of party affiliation means only one thing…. they must be Democrats, taking their cues from the likes of Barney Fwank, chief presider over the mortgage industry collapse.
On a side note, and a happier one for you leftist oinkers:
The International Olympic Committee announced today that it has taken back the gold medal
previously awarded to American skier Lindsey Vonn and given it to Barack Obama.
Olympic officials said Obama deserved the medal more than Vonn because no one has ever gone
downhill faster than he has.
Bud Wiser
October 29th, 2010
8:26 am
The side note was supposed to be italicized, but I messed it up; it is a copy from something I read this morning.
Bud Wiser
October 29th, 2010
8:27 am
Ciao losers, off to the beach this weekend, returning in time for election results on Tuesday … btw, where is the big loser party supposed to be held? Rumors are no hotel wants it, because of the forecast number of potential suicides once the votes start rolling in….
The Leg Lamp is a "major award"....
October 29th, 2010
8:28 am
And the democrats get more desperate……
“Clinton Asked Democrat to Quit Florida Senate Race .”
USinUK
October 29th, 2010
8:29 am
pooooooooor Bud … “No mention of party affiliation means only one thing…. they must be Democrats”
http://www.votekenerly.com/
joe
October 29th, 2010
8:30 am
That is a long time problem, but there’s another in Gwinnett and several other Metro Atlanta counties, called illegal immigration. JB, can you do a story on that? Would like to know the actual numbers in play…
jt
October 29th, 2010
8:30 am
On October 20, 2010 the President gave a speech in Portland, Oregon where he stated the real issue in the upcoming election: “But we also believe in a country where we look after one another; where we say, I am my brother’s keeper, I am my sister’s keeper. That’s the America I know. That’s the choice in this election.”
We’s all brothers and sisters in the eyes of the lord and Obama.
These folks are only doing what the Federalies do on a bigger scale. Spending tax-payer money to benefit a certain group. Although ALL citizens didn’t benefit, some did.
What’s the problem?
Doggone/GA
October 29th, 2010
8:30 am
For those who care, Kenerly’s election website states he is a Republican:
http://www.votekenerly.com/biography.asp
USinUK
October 29th, 2010
8:32 am
Doggone – you owe me a coke (which makes us even for yesterday)
Joeventures
October 29th, 2010
8:32 am
Is it any wonder why county commissioners get uncomfortable at suggestions that land-use and transportation planning should be integrated?
godless heathen
October 29th, 2010
8:37 am
OMG! Luckovich took a shot at Obama. Obama’s support must have reached negative numbers.
md
October 29th, 2010
8:37 am
“And what I find interesting is that you care enough to mention it. A scumbag politician is still a scumbag, no matter what “side” they are on.”
Then maybe you should also call out every post prior to his that mentioned party.
jm
October 29th, 2010
8:38 am
Government stinks at everything it does. A private company would be much better at monitoring this. BUT, the overhead ratio would be higher, like with Health Insurance companies. Holy crow! Oh no. $1 Billion for dead people.
I will say this though. Given the amount of money spewing out of Social Security, I’m surprised it’s only been $1 Billion over 10 years. Still. That could have paid for a lot of schools, been invested in growing our economy. $1B is only chump change in DC.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/1010/44349.html
Doggone/GA
October 29th, 2010
8:38 am
“you owe me a coke (which makes us even for yesterday)”
Yep!
Brad
October 29th, 2010
8:39 am
You liberals don’t understand. We don’t want “our guys” in there, we want government to be smaller. We want less of these crooks regardless of party affiliation. We believe you can’t trust any of the ruling class. I’d like Jay to investigate some of BHO’s side deals, too.
USinUK
October 29th, 2010
8:39 am
ahhhh, jm … I was hoping you’d join us today … have a quick question regarding a post you made after I left yesterday …
got a moment?
Enoch
October 29th, 2010
8:40 am
If Clinton and Obama try to pressure the black Democrat out of the Fla. Senate race and the AJC does not report on it, did it happen?
Gale
October 29th, 2010
8:40 am
As a Gwinnett resident, I am not surprised. However, as with many elections in this state, we are usually presented with a choice of two (or more) corrupt choices, possibly including an unknown who may or may not also be corrupt. Facts do not surface during the election run up, unless some “independent” agency (which may have its own agenda) reports facts. Then we must rely on our uneducated electorate to actually do research. If a non-corrupt candidate does get elected, s/he is tossed into the fray with the tigers who are only too happy to chew him/her to bits to secure their own positions.
stands for decibels
October 29th, 2010
8:43 am
Obama’s support must have reached negative numbers.
sigh.
here. Again. Look, please.
http://www.gallup.com/poll/124922/Presidential-Approval-Center.aspx
nine points to go before he hits Reagan’s lowest point. (Reagan’s sub-50% trough lasted about 700 days, by the way.)
jm
October 29th, 2010
8:43 am
Re Gwinnett. The same rules pretty much are in play at the Atlanta City Hall. Things may have changed recently. I’m not sure. But the rules were the same up until a few years ago right in Atlanta as well.
Take power away from government, and you take power away from fraudsters. Political corruption is a real detriment to our economy. And faith in the ability of the politicians to conduct their jobs in an admirable fashion has been lost completely. At least by me. So the only solution left is less government.
Nice Guy
October 29th, 2010
8:44 am
Dog – “One of the smartest things I’ve even done is to stay OUT OF Gwinnette county. and that was almost 25 years ago.”
I grew up in Gwinnett county and it has not always been the way it is now. It was a great place to grow up and had great schools and recreation parks, etc. Besides, some backroom deals by corrupt politicians doesn’t necessarily make it a bad place to live. What does make it bad is the changing of demographics that have brought a huge crime wave, which no longer makes it a desirable place to live.
md
October 29th, 2010
8:45 am
I see TP and sfd have a reading comprehension problem downstairs. That must suck.
BW
October 29th, 2010
8:45 am
It’s a shame…corruption is corruption but depending on the state the severity of it is lessened depending on political affiliation…these are Republicans make no mistake about that. Gwinnett better get it back together…I just moved here for a better commute into north Fulton to go work. When I start my family I want to do it here and I hope that this isn’t the beginning of a slide into Dekalb status….the most affluent residents are almost into north Fulton, Forsyth, or Hall…will they leave when the banks start lending for homes again?
USinUK
October 29th, 2010
8:45 am
Nice Guy – gah – land of the strip mall … (not that Marietta, my hometown, is any better)
WM
October 29th, 2010
8:45 am
USinUK–
You know, you are right. I mean Democrats never take donations for votes, Democrats never get corrupted by power, Democrats never do anything unethical. I mean I’ve completely missed it my whole life. Democrats are the chosen ones & have always sat at the right hand. And man I’m so pumped that Barnes is going to win next Tuesday because the moment he’s declared governor, all of our problems will vanish, much in the same way they vanished two years ago when our savior was elected President. Oh happy days!! Throw that crook Bannister in jail!! And let him share a cell with Kenerly!! Heck throw every Republican/Conservative in jail. Yes We Can!!
USinUK
October 29th, 2010
8:46 am
awwwwww … wm … do you feel better after your tanty??? now, go have a cold glass of water and a lie-down …
Road Scholar
October 29th, 2010
8:47 am
Enoch: In case you missed it, the Democratic senate candidate in Forida denied in an interview today that he was asked by Obama/Clinton to get out of the race. I would think that he would know!
Gale
October 29th, 2010
8:48 am
I begin to think political corruption is a factor of human nature, not dependent of any political system. I see political corruption in democracies and communism alike. And what is that I heard this morning about Haliburton and the BP oil blowout? The commission is now faulting Haliburton’s cement mix used to seal the well ( the first, not the most recent) as faulty. This seems yet another case of turning a blind eye to short cuts that maximize profit because –the cheap version is good enough and no one will notice.
barking frog
October 29th, 2010
8:49 am
When you spend big bucks to get a few bucks job,
there’s always fringe benefits.
Gordon
October 29th, 2010
8:50 am
“I think Gwinnett needs another strip mall … they are woefully shy of them”
No, but a $70M trolley would be nice.
stands for decibels
October 29th, 2010
8:50 am
md, when you post something that actually makes some sort of contextual sense, I might feel compelled to comment on it, k pal?
md
October 29th, 2010
8:50 am
“What does make it bad is the changing of demographics that have brought a huge crime wave, which no longer makes it a desirable place to live.”
Yep – and look for it to get worse before it gets better:
http://www.criminallawblogatlanta.com/2010/05/drug-crime-hub-of-atlanta-gwinnett-county.shtml
jt
October 29th, 2010
8:50 am
Ralph Nader and EPIC Urge Senate Hearings on Airport Body Scanners: In letters to Senator
100,000 to 200,000 taxpayer dollars………..EACH. Can’t nail down the real cost. Land or machine, what’s the diff? It is for the “public welfare.
Michael Chertoff, Former Department of Homeland Security, is the head of the Chertoff Group, the lead cheerleader for what is being called the Full Body Scanner Lobby, reports the Washington Post and the Washington Examiner.
Ralph Nader urged the Senate Committee on Homeland Security and Governmental Affairs to “convene a public hearing to review the government’s deployment of whole-body scanners at passenger security checkpoints in US airports.” The Nader/Rotenberg letter states that the Department of Homeland Security and the Transportation Security Administration have “disregarded serious questions concerning the devices’ effectiveness, privacy safeguards, and potential health impacts.”
Nice Guy
October 29th, 2010
8:51 am
USinUK – “land of the strip mall … (not that Marietta, my hometown, is any better”
I hear ya, but I’m referring to the residential areas surroung school districts of Shiloh, Brookwood and Parkview. Those used to be nice areas…no longer.
I could name at least two or three Marietta equivalents.
stands for decibels
October 29th, 2010
8:51 am
So the only solution left is less government.
they get bitter, and they cling to guns, and religion, and the absurd notion that modern industrialized economies can somehow function with “less government”.
later, gators.
jm
October 29th, 2010
8:52 am
UsinUK 8:39 – yep, wazzup?
jm
October 29th, 2010
8:53 am
USinUK – btw, I’ll concede P&C isn’t too terribly different than health insurance operationally.
Road Scholar
October 29th, 2010
8:53 am
WM: You know, that if Repubs wouldn’t use their Christian religion as an attribute for running for office, it would be less glaring when they violate a commandment! We are all sinners, but those who hold their religion up in a “holier than thou” fashion fall the furthest.
md
October 29th, 2010
8:53 am
“md, when you post something that actually makes some sort of contextual sense, I might feel compelled to comment on it, k pal?”
Made plenty of sense if you read the article – yet you blew it off………pal.
Bosch
October 29th, 2010
8:54 am
But I thought Gwinnett is Great!
You Gwinnettians get what you vote for. Land of strip malls, and sweet nice subdivision named things like “Willowing Oaks” and “Oak Pine Creek”
Whatever. Kind of ironic that about a bajillion oak, pine, and willow trees were cut down to make those atrocious dwelling places that cost 50 times their actual worth and are made with materials that are made to fall apart in 10 years.
USMC DAWG
October 29th, 2010
8:54 am
Good article Jay.
Why don’t you do a follow up on the corruption and nepotism that takes place at the City of Atlanta and the Airport. Atlanta, being one of the most corrupt city governments, always gets the pass because of racial politics. How does Maynard Jackson’s daughter and Shirley Franklin’s family get priority concessions at the airport? just saying
Matty D
October 29th, 2010
8:55 am
As a conservative, I can honestly say this is the first time I have agreed 100% on anything you have ever written, Bookman. Time to clean house in Gwinnett County. What a bunch of scum…
Road Scholar
October 29th, 2010
8:55 am
Gale, unfortunately, I think you ar right about politicians.
Doggone/GA
October 29th, 2010
8:55 am
“I grew up in Gwinnett county and it has not always been the way it is now”
Since I’ve never lived there, I can’t argue…but the reason *I* did not move there was because of all the horror stories that dog owning friends told me about problems they had with the county BECAUSE OF their dogs.
carlosgvv
October 29th, 2010
8:57 am
We the people like to think of our elected officials as public servants. Unfortunately, it is clear that the vast majority of politicans are interested only in serving themselves. As has always been the case, money talks and BS walks.
USinUK
October 29th, 2010
8:58 am
jm … so … at 11:49, you posted “she (that would be me) thinks a drop in bond yields of 3% causes a 15% increase in premiums”.
where on earth are you getting 3%???
if you look at the YTM for the ML corporate master, it’s dropped from 9.2% to 3.7% in 2 years, and 5.0% to 3.7% in the last year, alone – that’s a 59% and 26% drop, respectively … spreads for the same index fell 70% and 21% over the same time periods …
and yields for 5-year Treasuries fell from 2.98% to 1.26% over the last 2 years (2.31% to 1.26% over the last year) … those are 57% and 45% drops.
so. 3% … ???? where did that come from again???
and do you STILL want to maintain that decreases in bond yields aren’t responsible for hikes in premiums?
John K
October 29th, 2010
8:58 am
I’ve lived in Gwinnett for 20 years. Thankfully it is starting to change, although slowly.
The electorate would vote in the Republican no matter what. Sure, they got rid of Hill in place of Bannister, but would never even remotely the opponent, because they were “one of them Democrats.”
It’s been comical. They would re-elect the same people, or new people who were identical to the old, then spend the rest of the time complaining how they weren’t listening the people of Gwinnett. Then turn around and repeat the process.
Sure, Bannister and Kenerly are scum, and deserve whatever they get (sadly, Bannister won’t get much), but the voters of Gwinnett aren’t innocent either.
Nice Guy
October 29th, 2010
8:58 am
“Whatever. Kind of ironic that about a bajillion oak, pine, and willow trees were cut down to make those atrocious dwelling places that cost 50 times their actual worth and are made with materials that are made to fall apart in 10 years.”
Geez, Bosch. Did you run out of Cokes this morning?
Bosch
October 29th, 2010
8:59 am
One of the first questions I ask a local politician when they are asking for my vote is how they feel about development and the water issues. If they are for new development, I tell them they can not count on my vote.
Bosch
October 29th, 2010
8:59 am
“Geez, Bosch. Did you run out of Cokes this morning?”
YES!! How can you tell?
md
October 29th, 2010
9:00 am
Dogs are usually not the problem, but same can’t be said of owners………….
Doggone/GA
October 29th, 2010
9:00 am
“those atrocious dwelling places that cost 50 times their actual worth and are made with materials that are made to fall apart in 10 years.”
Bosch – I would amend this to: those atrocious dwelling places that WERE SOLD FOR 50 times their actual worth and are made with materials that are made to fall apart in 10 years.
I seriously doubt they actually COST more than their value, but I have no doubt they were sold for a LOT more than they actually cost to build.
Gale
October 29th, 2010
9:00 am
Matty D, I would love to clean house in Gwinnett. Can you identify an honest politician who is running for office?
And btw, Doggone, I never had a problem in Gwinnett with my dog. Of course, she was always in our fenced yard or leashed.
Bosch
October 29th, 2010
9:00 am
I love it when USinUK talks finance.
jm
October 29th, 2010
9:00 am
This is funny
Stewart also answered a question as to whether it would be worse if Luke Skywalker had missed “the final shot at the Death Star” in “Star Wars” — or if John Boehner became speaker of the House. No contest, Stewart said — it would have been worse for the Death Star to survive than for “an orange man that has no real agenda” to become speaker of the House.
Bosch
October 29th, 2010
9:01 am
Doggone,
I haven’t had my Coke this morning so I thought I’d substitute a little hyperbole to make up for it.
AmVet
October 29th, 2010
9:01 am
I agree, Gwinnett did not use to be the wasteland it is now.
If you like insane traffic gridlock and spending hundreds of hours every year in your car going nowhere fast, this is the place for you.
If you like a parochial, myopic government, second only to Cobb, who won’t ameliorate the horrific situation just described above via decent public transportation, this is the place for you.
If you want a dead red, hopelessly corrupt county government who works for shady developers and big monies interests (only?), this is the place for you.
And if you want to pay huge money for the Braves to have their AAA franchise there, you know the rest…
USinUK
October 29th, 2010
9:01 am
Gwinnett … dated a guy who lived there back in 1995 … to Bosch’s point, we had to pass by 4 or 5 areas that USED to be woods which were becoming subdivisions … and every destination (restaurant, shop, etc)was in a strip mall with acres of parking … couldn’t walk ANYwhere
(again – for the cheap seats in the back – Marietta is just as bad)
Nice Guy
October 29th, 2010
9:02 am
Bosch – “YES!! How can you tell?”
Just a hunch….
USinUK
October 29th, 2010
9:03 am
Bosch – 9:00 – I do what I can
Doggone/GA
October 29th, 2010
9:03 am
“I never had a problem in Gwinnett with my dog. Of course, she was always in our fenced yard or leashed”
As I said, that was 25 years ago..and you have ONE dog, at the time *I* had 6. And from the stories I heard, the problems went up exponentially in relation to the number of dogs you had.
Bosch
October 29th, 2010
9:04 am
Oohhhhh. Cupcakes!
Greg
October 29th, 2010
9:04 am
Gee…not sure where you live in Gwinnett, but it is definately a great place to live. Its quiet, has a good school system (Yeah Gwinnett recently won that national award for its schools)…crime is relatively low (unless you count Bannister and Kenerly’s crimes) and it’s quite neighborly.
If you did not move to Gwinnett because of dogs, or because of changing demographics (ie…you were scared to live with minorities) then we are glad you are not here.
Thanks for staying away and allowing success to live here!!
md
October 29th, 2010
9:04 am
“If they are for new development, I tell them they can not count on my vote.”
You do know that new development is needed for a strong tax base to pay for all the programs you want to vote in – don’t you??
Or do you want your cake and want to eat it?
USinUK
October 29th, 2010
9:05 am
Bosch – speaking of cupcakes … Hello Cupcake is going to launch nation-wide delivery in 2011!!!
Nice Guy
October 29th, 2010
9:05 am
“Dogs are usually not the problem, but same can’t be said of owners”
So true md, so true.
TaxPayer
October 29th, 2010
9:05 am
Uh Huh, md.
Question Man
October 29th, 2010
9:06 am
Doesn’t what went on in Gwinnett happen regularly in many other counties? Isn’t it just that the politicians in Gwinnett were incredibly stupid and arrogant? For example, how does one explain the decision by the Atlanta BeltLine to pay Wayne Mason $66 million for land he had purchased about two years earlier for $22 million (and when the steep decline in real estate prices and the recession were already apparent)?
SOUTHERN ATL
October 29th, 2010
9:06 am
Jay,
Gwinnett is a diversified county when you look at the population statistics. On the other hand, the local government or school board is not a representation of diversification that reflects on all of the citizens!!
Doggone/GA
October 29th, 2010
9:07 am
“Thanks for staying away and allowing success to live here!!”
I KNEW there was a good reason for staying out of Gwinnette. Thanks for confirm it.
LydiasDad
October 29th, 2010
9:08 am
The ugly truth in Gwinnett is that the county is overrun by illegals.
Nice Guy
October 29th, 2010
9:08 am
Greg- “you were scared to live with minorities”
Who ever said this??
Bosch
October 29th, 2010
9:08 am
md,
When you have strip mall after strip mall with no tennants, and subdivisions with no houses, and other neighborhoods with about 1/4 of the houses for sale — and foreclosures up then call me crazy, but I don’t see how new developments will make for a strong tax base. But then again, I’m no finance expert.
Ask me about cupcakes, and we’ll talk.
md
October 29th, 2010
9:08 am
“If you like insane traffic gridlock and spending hundreds of hours every year in your car going nowhere fast, this is the place for you.”
And tell us oh wise one, where in the Atl area does this not apply?
deegee
October 29th, 2010
9:08 am
I don’t think that power corrupts. The politicians are corrupt before they gain political power. Why would anyone want to endure the stress and strain of an expensive political campaign if their sole motivation was to serve the people? They are all in it to get rich and they know how to play the game. The question is not whether the politician is corrupt, the question is to what degree. There is manageable corruption and there is unmanageable corruption. In the case of the Gwinnett County commission, the corruption became unmanageable. The politicians became greedy and no one wanted to stop it. Isn’t that what a lazy, partisan electorate deserves?
jm
October 29th, 2010
9:08 am
USinUK 8:58 – of course bond yields were high 2 years ago. We were in the throes of the financial crisis. They were at an all time high. And what matters, since the assets and liabilities are short duration in nature, is the 5.0% to 3.7% drop in yields. In case you can’t do math, that’s a 1.3% drop in yield. How you think a 1.3% drop in yield drives a 15% premium increase is just beyond me.
So to answer “and do you STILL want to maintain that decreases in bond yields aren’t responsible for hikes in premiums?”
Hell yes. For 90% of the premium increase.
It’s 90% driven by medical advances, increased demand for health care (baby boomers), some impact from HCR, constrained health care supply, etc etc. Your dogmatic and have tunnel vision…
Bosch
October 29th, 2010
9:08 am
“Hello Cupcake is going to launch nation-wide delivery in 2011!!!”
my day has just been made!
Nice Guy
October 29th, 2010
9:09 am
“Ask me about cupcakes, and we’ll talk.”
Wow…just, wow.
Nice Guy
October 29th, 2010
9:09 am
You know, being a “firstie” really doesn’t feel that great……
Just sayin.
Bosch
October 29th, 2010
9:10 am
Ohhhh. scones. My day is looking up!
Nice Guy
October 29th, 2010
9:10 am
md – “And tell us oh wise one, where in the Atl area does this not apply?”
LOL!
Doggone/GA
October 29th, 2010
9:10 am
“Who ever said this??”
Don’t even give it another thought…he was just taking the “scattergun” approch to telling me I wasn’t welcome in “his county”
godless heathen
October 29th, 2010
9:10 am
“One of the first questions I ask a local politician when they are asking for my vote is how they feel about development and the water issues. If they are for new development, I tell them they can not count on my vote.”
Bosch’s community had exactly the correct number of people in it the very day he arrived.
Bosch
October 29th, 2010
9:10 am
Nice Guy,
So, you like cupcakes too? I do. They’re great. So are cranberry scones.
Gale
October 29th, 2010
9:11 am
Southern ATL, Perhaps the lack of identification with the population is what leads to corruption of the elected/appointed officials. There is a lack of interest in building community. I like my neightborhood; quiet and neat. However, even in my tidy neighborhood, we witnessed an eviction this week. :sigh:
John K
October 29th, 2010
9:11 am
The amount of new, and empty space is ridiculous. The development at 316 & Duluth Highway, nearly dead. There’s a new one on Horizon just north of L’ville Suwanee, nearly dead. Go to the old Target plaza on Pleasant Hill.
md
October 29th, 2010
9:12 am
Well Bosch – the economy has always been cyclical, so what you describe is a given at any given time in history and probably the future. On the flip side, when the economy is at the other end of the cycle, those places will be full and generating tons of tax money to pay for all the nice programs everybody wants.
Greg
October 29th, 2010
9:12 am
Niceguy..in a round about way…you did!!
“What does make it bad is the changing of demographics that have brought a huge crime wave, which no longer makes it a desirable place to live.”
Brenda
October 29th, 2010
9:12 am
What I don’t understand is why the developers taking the cash aren’t being indicted for fraud, etc.
Nice Guy
October 29th, 2010
9:13 am
I do Bosch, but only the good ones.
But I’m no expert.
jm
October 29th, 2010
9:13 am
Oh, and USinUK. My yield was an approximation from the drop in treasury yields over the past several years, because no matter what, your conclusion was so out of whack, I didn’t have to be accurate within even a second order of magnitude. I could’ve said 6% and been correct. But if you need some data on 2 yr treasury yields, hear you go.
09/2007, 4.01
10/2007, 3.97
11/2007, 3.34
12/2007, 3.12
01/2008, 2.48
02/2008, 1.97
03/2008, 1.62
04/2008, 2.05
05/2008, 2.45
06/2008, 2.77
07/2008, 2.57
08/2008, 2.42
09/2008, 2.08
10/2008, 1.61
11/2008, 1.21
12/2008, 0.82
01/2009, 0.81
02/2009, 0.98
03/2009, 0.93
04/2009, 0.93
05/2009, 0.93
06/2009, 1.18
07/2009, 1.02
08/2009, 1.12
09/2009, 0.96
10/2009, 0.95
11/2009, 0.80
12/2009, 0.87
01/2010, 0.93
02/2010, 0.86
03/2010, 0.96
04/2010, 1.06
05/2010, 0.83
06/2010, 0.72
07/2010, 0.62
08/2010, 0.52
09/2010, 0.48
http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h15/data/Monthly/H15_TCMNOM_Y2.txt
AmVet
October 29th, 2010
9:14 am
BTW, Jay you serve an invaluable purpose by informing us on these matters of import.
Which is exactly why the dead red hyper-partisans hate it.
And why they feast endlessly on red herring breakfasts, lunches and dinners.
Rather than ever doing the manup thing and denouncing one of their own Republican thieves. And gawdknows it is not as if there are so few to pick from!
I’m still chuckling at all of the (fill in the blank here) who deflected and genuflected for that piece of Kentucky filth earlier this week.
Speaking of which, here is another stick in the eye for the disgusting apologists. And the author alone is bound to set some to violent slobbering…
There she was, thrown to the pavement by a Republican in a checkered shirt. Another Republican thrusts his foot in between her legs and presses down with all his weight to pin her to the curb. Then a Republican leader comes over and viciously stomps on her head with his foot. You hear her glasses crunch under the pressure. Holding her head down with his foot, he applies more force so she can’t move. Her skull and brain are now suffering a concussion.
The young woman’s name is Lauren Valle, but she is really all of us. For come this Tuesday, the right wing — and the wealthy who back them — plan to take their collective boot and bring it down hard on not just the head of Barack Obama but on the heads of everyone they simply don’t like.
Teachers union? The boot!
Muslim-looking people? The boot!
Thinking of retiring soon? The boot!
Living in a house you can no longer afford? The boot!
Doing a bit better with your minimum wage? The boot!
Stem cell research, the bullet train, reversing global warming? Ha! The boot for all of you!
What? You like your kids being covered by your health plan ‘til they’re 26? The boot for them and the boot for you!
In love with someone of your own gender? A double boot up the ass for every single one of you sick SOBs!
Hoping there’s a few jobs left here in the U.S. when you graduate? How ’bout just a nice boot to your head instead?
And most importantly, the last boot is saved for the black man who probably wasn’t born here, definitely isn’t a Christian and possibly might be the Antichrist sent here to oversee the destruction of our very way of life. A boot to your head, Obama-devil!
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/mike-friends-blog/boot-head-michael-moore
Nice Guy
October 29th, 2010
9:14 am
Greg – “in a round about way…you did!!”
Don’t get your undies bucnhed up so easily.
My statement is true, BTW.
Bosch
October 29th, 2010
9:14 am
md,
Yeah, I understand that and see your point and agree, but out of control development like what I was actually talking about, I see as not good for a community.
Greg
October 29th, 2010
9:14 am
No Doggone….what I was saying to you…
If you make a decision on buying a home and choosing a place to live because of your pets…that is pretty much out there in space…if you ask me.
Greg
October 29th, 2010
9:16 am
Nice Guy…..no you are not true.
I agree that there may be a crime issue in parts of Norcoss and small sections of Duluth…but the last time I checked that is not all of Gwinnett county…right?
Nice Guy
October 29th, 2010
9:16 am
AmVet – “I’m still chuckling at all of the (fill in the blank here) who deflected and genuflected for that piece of Kentucky filth earlier this week.”
Chuckle if you must, but remember, actions have consequences. And that wench learned this lesson the hard way.
jm
October 29th, 2010
9:16 am
USinUK – what else do you have in your bare cupboard to throw at me?
Amazing
October 29th, 2010
9:16 am
But the Dawgs play the Gators tomorrow, so who cares about rampant, deeply ingrained political corruption?
USinUK
October 29th, 2010
9:17 am
jm – “of course bond yields were high 2 years ago. We were in the throes of the financial crisis. They were at an all time high”
yes, and now they are at an all-time low … and, given that the Fed isn’t going to raise rates anytime soon and growth is expected to remain low and slow, rates aren’t expected to rise much in the coming year to 2 years. THUS, the increase in premiums.
“And what matters, since the assets and liabilities are short duration in nature, is the 5.0% to 3.7% drop in yields. In case you can’t do math, that’s a 1.3% drop in yield.”
given that, for most insurance companies, net investment income is what funds their business operations, a 26% CHANGE in yield makes a huge difference in operating budgets.
I agree with your last statement about the other issues that drive it – I just disagree with the 90%
Nice Guy
October 29th, 2010
9:17 am
Greg – “but the last time I checked that is not all of Gwinnett county…right?”
Right.
Jimbo
October 29th, 2010
9:17 am
Now I’m going to sue the gwinnwtt county, Cause I’m stuck with this land, should get 10 million for what a paid 1 for.Hurry up before the taxpayers hear about this.
Nice Guy
October 29th, 2010
9:18 am
“But the Dawgs play the Gators tomorrow, so who cares about rampant, deeply ingrained political corruption?”
Ohhhh yeah baby!
USinUK
October 29th, 2010
9:18 am
dangitall, Bosch – quittit with the food! I’m hungry!!!
Bosch
October 29th, 2010
9:18 am
“If you make a decision on buying a home and choosing a place to live because of your pets…that is pretty much out there in space…if you ask me.”
I’m actually going to re-do a room in my house so the pups can have their own room. Is that weird?
lucy
October 29th, 2010
9:19 am
gwinnett is great
Balance Our Budget
October 29th, 2010
9:19 am
Amvet
Prepare for Tuesday my friend.You may want to stock up on Tylenol and whatever other pain killers you use.
USinUK
October 29th, 2010
9:19 am
Bosch – the owner is building out her 2nd location which will be the HQ for mail order … will let you know when it’s up and running!
flagger
October 29th, 2010
9:19 am
thats why we have the impervious tax and senior citizens have to pay school tax till they die
because good ole boys and girls on the commission see it just like every other form of
government we have from city, county, state, and federal … its their own little piggy banks.
a million here a billion there and trillion somewhere else. its like a monkey peeing in a cash
register, pretty soon it runs into money!!!! throw the bums out!!!!
USinUK
October 29th, 2010
9:20 am
jm – 9:16 – I’m keeping in nice, here … I would hope you would do the same.
jm
October 29th, 2010
9:20 am
USinUK 9:17 – do you understand insurance underwriting loss and profit? If so, you would understand your “26% change” is not what matters.
Greg
October 29th, 2010
9:21 am
“I’m actually going to re-do a room in my house so the pups can have their own room. Is that weird?”
To me MY OPINION….yes…its weird!
Amazing
October 29th, 2010
9:21 am
Woof, woof, woof.
Bosch
October 29th, 2010
9:21 am
Balance our Budget,
I’m actually excited about the GOP takeover.
Nice Guy
October 29th, 2010
9:22 am
Uh oh, AmVet has gone silent….he must be Googling something delicious for us all….
@@
October 29th, 2010
9:22 am
That’s true to a degree in almost every county, of course. Developers need rezonings and other favors; commissioners need campaign funds and votes.
How ’bout developers in need of zoning approval who ARE commissioners. Sure, they abstain, but the other board members serve as their vote. A corridor to outside power brokers too.
I always laugh at the idea of executive sessions. If they can’t discuss it in public, chances are it shouldn’t be being discussed at all.
Clayton County is rife with this kind of behavior. Do our residents respond as one voice? No! As long as it’s not in their backyard, they couldn’t care less.
USinUK
October 29th, 2010
9:23 am
jm – given that I’ve worked in P&C for the last 7 years, I think I do.
Greg
October 29th, 2010
9:23 am
Ok…I apologize…my statement about re-doing the house for your dogs is wrong. I am not a pet person…I don’t understand the love affair with animals that many people do. Again…I am sorry.
Doggone/GA
October 29th, 2010
9:24 am
“If you make a decision on buying a home and choosing a place to live because of your pets”
So are you contending that I should move somewhere where they aren’t welcome? Where I would be in danger of having them confiscated and DESTROYED because of some power-smitten snerd? (It nearly happened to a friend, SHE had to move out of that county to save them)
Sorry, but just as I would move TO a family friendly place if I had children, I will NOT move to a pet UNFRIENDLY place. Luckily I moved to a MUCH more pet friendly county and have been happy here. And, hey! I’m JUST over the border with Gwinnett. All the advantages, and NONE of the disadvantages. Best case scenario.
Bosch
October 29th, 2010
9:24 am
Greg,
Why do you think it’s weird if you have the room? I’m going to paint it and put toys in there and a bed and a little obstacle course for them to run around and work off energy so they won’t tear up furniture and eat shoes and stuff. Of course they’ll have their own old shoes to eat if they choose.
I think it will be great. And this way they’ll have something to do during the day when we Bosches are all busy.
USinUK
October 29th, 2010
9:24 am
Bosch – 9:18 – it’s only weird if they get their own flat-screen and XBox …
Amazing
October 29th, 2010
9:24 am
Greg, what about the Dawgs?
TaxPayer
October 29th, 2010
9:25 am
Growth to a Republican is just another word for backdoor increased tax revenues. The next thing you know, these lame Republicans will be telling us how increasing the property appraisal while maintaining the millage rate is not the same as a tax hike. Oops! Too late! They done beat me to it.
Del
October 29th, 2010
9:26 am
Yes indeed Chicago politics.
Bosch
October 29th, 2010
9:26 am
“Bosch – 9:18 – it’s only weird if they get their own flat-screen and XBox …”
I was saving that for Christmas. Okay, so that’s a little much, huh?
md
October 29th, 2010
9:27 am
“Yeah, I understand that and see your point and agree, but out of control development like what I was actually talking about, I see as not good for a community.”
Well, I see telling folks what they can and can’t do with their own property as “not good for a community”. If someone wants to take the risk and build a strip mall, have at it. If you don’t agree, then by all means buy their property and do as you please with it.
Greg
October 29th, 2010
9:27 am
LOL…Amazing…the dogs are in Athens which is not in Gwinnett…but yeah…I like dem Dawgs…even though they are not winning and seem to like jail….LOL
USinUK
October 29th, 2010
9:27 am
Bosch – just don’t get them a wii … they may get the wrong idea
Nice Guy
October 29th, 2010
9:28 am
“just don’t get them a wii … they may get the wrong idea”
Yikes!
Bosch
October 29th, 2010
9:29 am
md,
I see that point too actually, but when what the person does with their own property affects all the other property owners, then I think a little intervention is necessary.
I’m a filthy socialist marxist communist fascist that way I guess.
AmVet
October 29th, 2010
9:29 am
Speaking of chuckling, Guy, have you considered a name change? Your current one is inappropriate.
The consequences of your writings?
BoB, you labor under two major delusions.
You are actually so gullible you think things are going to be different based on what happens next Tuesday, don’t you?
I have voted in every single election, since 1972. I have seen endless swings back and forth, between the Tweedledeers and the Tweedledummers, and in every instance, nothing fundamentally changed. Not for me, my family, my friends or my business colleagues. Other than the constant swirling of the Middle Class going down the toilet.
Your other major delusion is that you think I am as gullible as you…
mike
October 29th, 2010
9:29 am
Let’s see. Some of the elected officials on the Gwinnett County commission turn out to be crooks and some of you folks are blaming the diverse makeup of those other people who have moved into Gwinnett County. Well that’s the best reason I have heard yet. Must be a republican county. Always blame someone else.
Gail
October 29th, 2010
9:30 am
Bannister is gone, but we’re left with a mess. Including land re-zoned for 2 or 3 waste transfer stations of which at least one is owned by one of Bannister’s long time friends. As the song says – “Bad to the Bone!”
Doggone/GA
October 29th, 2010
9:30 am
Greg – if it helps any, my dogs are DOGS…not “fur people”
Bosch
October 29th, 2010
9:30 am
USinUK,
If I get them a Wii, they could download doggie porn on it right? Can’t you download movies through your Wii? I couldn’t risk that.
Bosch
October 29th, 2010
9:31 am
Oh Wii, I get it now. D’oh.
Nice Guy
October 29th, 2010
9:31 am
Bosch – “I’m a filthy socialist marxist communist fascist that way I guess.”
I think Libertarian would be more appropriate.
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
October 29th, 2010
9:32 am
Well, he is a good Conservative Republican—I mean, you got to be to get elected in Gwinnett. I say we give him a pass and a public apology for smearing him and let him stay. What’s a few million bucks among friends? If you don’t take care of your own, nobody else will do it for you.
Have a good day everybody. I’m hauling like crazy and getting ready for your weird music swap tonight.
Greg
October 29th, 2010
9:33 am
Mike….said
“Must be a republican county. Always blame someone else.”
I’d also say….and make up stories, cover-ups and stir up the loonies as they walk into office to steal money.”
and no I am not a Liberal Dem…I am actually A Conservative Leaning Indy
Nice Guy
October 29th, 2010
9:33 am
AmVet – “Speaking of chuckling, Guy, have you considered a name change? Your current one is inappropriate.”
Glad I could brighten your day. Besides, why change my name when you already drop the ‘Nice’ on your own?
And if I did change my name, and you found out, you would call me a fraud. Why do you want to set me up like that AmVet?
Bosch
October 29th, 2010
9:34 am
“and no I am not a Liberal Dem…I am actually A Conservative Leaning Indy”
Who hates dogs.
JK
godless heathen
October 29th, 2010
9:34 am
“Chuckle if you must, but remember, actions have consequences. And that wench learned this lesson the hard way.”
She should try to deliver a present to President Obama in a similar fashion and see what she gets.
USinUK
October 29th, 2010
9:34 am
Bosch – 9:31 – assume the lowest common denominator and you’ll rarely be wrong …
md
October 29th, 2010
9:35 am
“but when what the person does with their own property affects all the other property owners, then I think a little intervention is necessary. ”
Oh, so “all the other property owners” did their thing first so they have more say in the matter??
I’ll never understand that one. No liquor next to the church is unconstitutional, rights are being violated. Same with your scenario.
jm
October 29th, 2010
9:35 am
USinUK 9:23 – well then I don’t know why I need to go to this trouble. But I guess I will despite the fact it will be a waste of time.
Theoretical Company A at 2008 or T0:
Revenue:
Premiums Earned: $1.00 B
Investment Gains: $0.06 B
Expenses
Overhead $0.15B
Underwriting Losses: $0.80 B
Net Profit: $0.11B
ASSUMING a company has pricing power and can reunderwrite premiums up to account for reduced investment yields (a bold assumption, but your implicit assumption)
Theoretical Company A at 2010 or T1:
Revenue:
Premiums Earned: $1.03 B
Investment Gains: $0.03 B
Expenses
Overhead $0.15B
Underwriting Losses: $0.80 B
Net Profit: $0.11B
Well, we had to have a 3% increase in yields to offset the drop in investment yield.
If you need a more specific example, feel free to use this one, or since one should do some amount of self education, just go read a variet of insurance company 10Q’s or K’s.
http://yahoo.brand.edgar-online.com/displayfilinginfo.aspx?FilingID=7394213-4448-12436&type=sect&dcn=0001193125-10-178552
You must be a Lloyd’s employee….
just kidding. Bad jm, bad jm.
Doggone/GA
October 29th, 2010
9:36 am
“Who hates dogs”
Nah, I wouldn’t say that…just intolerent of those who have them, or in this case it’s a true NIMBY!
AmVet
October 29th, 2010
9:36 am
No worries Guy.
I won’t try to disabuse you from casting you lot with violent thugs and sewer rats like Mr. Proffit.
Even if you were to denounce him instead of the defenseless woman he assaulted, it would be as transparent as your silly moniker.
OK, off to be a good little capitalist and pay for more welfare for the wealthy.
Later, peeps…
Don't know Talmo
October 29th, 2010
9:37 am
I see that point too actually, but when what the person does with their own property affects all the other property owners, then I think a little intervention is necessary.
But if I want to use my land to process wastes through direct application on the land or in holding ponds, that is my right. So what if smells a little and burns a little and other stuff. I follow all the rules as required by law to make sure that I don’t kill nothing that would not have died eventually on its own.
Doggone/GA
October 29th, 2010
9:38 am
“No liquor next to the church is unconstitutional, rights are being violated. Same with your scenario”
You might understand a bit better if someone buys out your neighbors and builds a garbage processing plant right next door to you.
BW
October 29th, 2010
9:38 am
AmVet
Which is the best county to live in? Everyone in the area have their own problems and traffic will be a constant regardless
Union
October 29th, 2010
9:38 am
this kind of issue happens all the time.. at least until they get caught.. seem to remember some deal about 32 million or so for some papers to be kept in atlanta. shame they dont have that money now.. might have kept some people from getting laid off.. or even help to pay for that train to the king center?
Strippin' Mall
October 29th, 2010
9:40 am
Liquor is not the only thing folks in these parts won’t let you have next to their church. Funny how their property rights only extend so far… or so close to where they are a sittin’.
Greg
October 29th, 2010
9:40 am
Who hates dogs”
Nah, I wouldn’t say that…just intolerent of those who have them…
Yeah…especially to those owners who walk them and never clean up after them. That is soo soo pleasant.
I don’t mind pets…as long as they are not in my house and stay in your yard.
Nice Guy
October 29th, 2010
9:41 am
Gotta run. Be back later. Y’all play nice now, ya hear!
md
October 29th, 2010
9:41 am
“You might understand a bit better if someone buys out your neighbors and builds a garbage processing plant right next door to you.”
I understand just fine thank you – we aren’t currently discussing zonings.
Bosch
October 29th, 2010
9:41 am
md,
“Oh, so “all the other property owners” did their thing first so they have more say in the matter??”
That doesn’t make sense. It appears you are grasping at straws, but how is that the same?
While I do believe that people should be able to do what they want with their property, I do believe in limits — and those limits include when their right to do what they want infringes on others, and affects the value of another person’s property.
That isn’t right to me.
So, should people be able to smoke wherever they want?
PMC
October 29th, 2010
9:42 am
Let this be a lesson to everyone. Power CORRUPTS! IT is VITAL to vote these guys out of office repeatedly.
If it’s supposed to be “public service” then you don’t need to be doing it as a life long career.
If you still feel called to serve after 1 term… VOLUNTEER!
Vote out incumbants people. REPEATEDLY.
AmVet
October 29th, 2010
9:42 am
heathen, one last observation.
In your efforts to support him, it is very interesting hat you compare the highly professional and courageous Secret Service to that scumbag.
You blood-lusting apologists will never get it, will you?
She had been removed a considerable distance away from the candidate and only then did those gutless pukes needlessly assault her.
Go shine your jackboots, boys…
Trey Calder
October 29th, 2010
9:43 am
The corruption of Gwinnett County started with Wayne Mason and has progressed to the levels seen today. When attaching blame, let’s not forget “the Mason boys”!!!
md
October 29th, 2010
9:43 am
“Yeah…especially to those owners who walk them and never clean up after them. That is soo soo pleasant.”
I equate these folks with the smokers that give themselves the right to litter every time they through a butt out the window……………
Greg
October 29th, 2010
9:44 am
No liquor next to the church is unconstitutional, rights are being violated. Same with your scenario”
You might understand a bit better if someone buys out your neighbors and builds a garbage processing plant right next door to you.
Well that has more to do with the “Free For All” zoning laws in the county. Those are terrible too!…probably kenerly and bannisters doing as well!
The Ghost of Lester Maddox
October 29th, 2010
9:44 am
JayBama -
I think you may be on to something…..secret meetings….well-connected insiders cutting sweetheart deals….preferential treatment for people close to certian politicians…..avoiding public scrutiny……running from consequences once discovered…..OH WAIT…
You are talking about Gwinnett? I am talking about the events leading up to OBAMA-CARE!!!!
Hmph….why wasn’t this secrecy WRONG when YOUR party did it on a national scale? Hmm?
Greg
October 29th, 2010
9:44 am
Md…exactly!
Bosch
October 29th, 2010
9:45 am
Well, if you are an Episcopalian like me, having a liquor store next to the church could save you a few steps.
jm
October 29th, 2010
9:46 am
Trey – amen.
TaxPayer
October 29th, 2010
9:46 am
Most folks up here in our devoutly Republican county yammered on and on about how they had to protect their rights to do what they want with their land until they got beat to the punch and their neighbors did unto them first. Then, they started talking about the need for restrictions and zoning. Uh Huh.
md
October 29th, 2010
9:47 am
“While I do believe that people should be able to do what they want with their property, I do believe in limits — and those limits include when their right to do what they want infringes on others, and affects the value of another person’s property.”
If what they are building is in the long term use plan, then those their “first” should have no say in the matter.
To clarify, I was discussing within current zoning limitations. Rezoning is another matter entirely, and most times is open for public discussion………..
Doggone/GA
October 29th, 2010
9:49 am
Can’t remember who it was yesterday (and I’m too lazy to go back and look) who was foaming at the mouth because of alleged felon voting for Al Franken…but it looks like there’s been a resolution of the investigation, and a WHOPPING 47 votes have been found to be fraudulent and files charged:
“A County Attorney in Minnesota — where Tea Party and conservative groups are staging an anti-voter fraud push — has charged 47 individuals in voter fraud cases stemming from the 2008 election”
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/10/minn_conservative_groups_voter_fraud_allegations_about_five_percent_accurate.php
(and if you have a problem with the site, please don’t bother telling me…I know nothing about them)
@@
October 29th, 2010
9:49 am
When “comedian” and “The View” co-host Joy Behar lambasted GOP Nevada Senate candidate Sharron Angle this week as a “b*tch” who would be “going to h*ll” for using images of illegal alien gang members in a campaign ad, Angle responded by sending a lovely bouquet of flowers and a good-humored note: “Joy, Raised $150,000 online yesterday. Thanks for your help. Sincerely, Sharron Angle.”
Outgunned in the comedy department, Behar sputtered nonsensically and with bitter, clingy vulgarity: “I would like to point out that those flowers were picked by illegal immigrants and they’re not voting for you, b*tch.”–Michelle Malkin
I would love to have been there when Joy read the accompanying note.
Schnirt!
Greg
October 29th, 2010
9:49 am
You are talking about Gwinnett? I am talking about the events leading up to OBAMA-CARE!!!!
….zzzzz…yawn… Nothing to see here…move along.
Obamacare was not done in secrecy. It was out there before the election. Obama said lets do it…Republicans said not a chance.. things got tweeked..and it was voted in…..
Land deals, stadium deals…school land acquisitions….all done in secrecy. That’s the problem.
Doggone/GA
October 29th, 2010
9:49 am
“I don’t mind pets…as long as they are not in my house and stay in your yard”
As I suspected…NIMBY!
catlady
October 29th, 2010
9:50 am
Throw every one of them out who voted for this. Obviously these people don’t understand the obligations to the office to which they were elected.
USinUK
October 29th, 2010
9:50 am
jm – not a lloyds employee – but I can see them from my window!
Greg
October 29th, 2010
9:50 am
Bosch said…
“Well, if you are an Episcopalian like me, having a liquor store next to the church could save you a few steps.”
LOL…we have something in common…..
Normal
October 29th, 2010
9:50 am
Off topic, but there’s no excuse now…
http://www.navytimes.com/news/2010/10/ap-military-survey-says-majority-back-ending-gay-ban-102810/
Doggone/GA
October 29th, 2010
9:51 am
“we aren’t currently discussing zonings”
If you think anyone should be able to do anything they want with their own property, that is EXACTLY what we are discussing. It is zoning that STOPS that garbage unit from being built next door to you.
Greg
October 29th, 2010
9:51 am
Doggone wrote….”As I suspected…NIMBY!”
Nimby pimby namby pamby…LOL….
You sir are funny!
md
October 29th, 2010
9:52 am
“Obamacare was not done in secrecy. It was out there before the election. Obama said lets do it…Republicans said not a chance.. things got tweeked..and it was voted in…..”
Yep, that is exactly how it happened……as long as one had on those special glasses.
Bosch
October 29th, 2010
9:52 am
md,
“If what they are building is in the long term use plan”
But if that long term plan involves their development sitting idle for years and the tax burden falling back onto the other tax payers because they didn’t execute their plans well, and file for bankruptcy leaving the county stuck with the bill, which is what I was originally talking about anyway, then that is not right.
Now, if you are talking about things like home owners associations who have busy body little wenches who think they can tell a home owner their grass is a quarter inch too high or they don’t like the color of paint they chose, then screw them.
Otherwise, I’m not really sure what your point is.
jm
October 29th, 2010
9:53 am
USinUK – Talk about underwriting mistakes. Of course, they weren’t the only ones taken down by asbestos. Still….
Come to any conclusions? Or are we at a stalemate?
Jefferson
October 29th, 2010
9:53 am
The truth is Buford has a lot of players that don’t live in Buford, and they are real good.
All I'm Saying Is...
October 29th, 2010
9:53 am
In addition to being corrupt and illegal, CORPORATE WELFARE, NEPOTISM, and AFFIRMATIVE ACTION is what this was.
GOP is fine with corporate welfare, nepotism, and affirmative action (giving a Caucasian fella having a hard time a break) in the name of “progress” and “growth” even if it takes a felony to achieve.
HYPOCRISY RUN AMOK.
Doggone/GA
October 29th, 2010
9:54 am
“Go shine your jackboots, boys”
good one…I was too disgusted to reply
USinUK
October 29th, 2010
9:54 am
jm – I think we’re in a stalemate – but we can agree to disagree – we both have elements of right, but we just place different weightings on them
professional skeptic
October 29th, 2010
9:54 am
Apparently, income redistribution is fine — as long as the income is taken from the masses and used to line the pockets of politicians and their donors and cronies.
People say this Gwinnett business is shameful, but then they turn right around and vote for Nathan Deal. Get ready for more of the same, Georgia, from the Governor’s office on down.
md
October 29th, 2010
9:54 am
“If you think anyone should be able to do anything they want with their own property, that is EXACTLY what we are discussing. It is zoning that STOPS that garbage unit from being built next door to you.”
Sure, if one makes assumptions that zoning wasn’t a given…….which it usually is without a REZONING.
Bosch
October 29th, 2010
9:55 am
Greg,
USinUK
October 29th, 2010
9:55 am
jm – oh, and as for lloyds, they’ve been around long enough, I think they’re allowed
williebkind
October 29th, 2010
9:55 am
Jay, I liked your article. It exposes greed of public officials and renders a viable resolution for it. Also, I would like to see huge punishments for those who make the bribes. I am happy it was a grand jury that exposed it instead of a judge making law.
Hillbilly Deluxe
October 29th, 2010
9:56 am
Developers need rezonings and other favors; commissioners need campaign funds and votes.
And that’s why we’re in the mess we’re in. I guess this has always gone on but this kind of behavior accelerated in the late 60’s-early 70’s and it’s been going strong ever since. It’s the mindset of pretty much every local government in North Georgia. This lot are just the ones who got caught. So it’ll probably always be with us but when you manage to catch some, as in this case, nail their asses to the wall.
Greg
October 29th, 2010
9:57 am
The system is broken. Both parties are loaded with Hacks who do for their own and are in on the American Moneygrab called Politics.
The best way to solve the problem…term limits. Politics Corrupt!
jm
October 29th, 2010
9:57 am
skeptic – one can only hope Deal is quickly indicted, followed by Cagle. I have no idea who is in line after that…
@@
October 29th, 2010
9:57 am
If one is a staunch Libertarian AND developer (my brother), there should be no restrictions on private property owners, but when a church submitted an application to build on a corner lot near his house, he became a homeowner and protested the building of said church.
Yet, he attends church regularly.
Life is funny sometimes.
Bosch
October 29th, 2010
9:58 am
“People say this Gwinnett business is shameful, but then they turn right around and vote for Nathan Deal. Get ready for more of the same, Georgia, from the Governor’s office on down.”
That professional skeptic, he’s alright, he is.
TESTIFY!!!
jm
October 29th, 2010
9:58 am
Here’s my solution to the corruption problem: get rid of zoning laws. Houston works better than fine without them.
Shawny
October 29th, 2010
9:58 am
“OH NOes. Not the GOPers. They don’t do nobody wrong! ”
Sure they do. Bookman and Tucker point that out every single day.
md
October 29th, 2010
9:58 am
“If what they are building is in the long term use plan”
I am referring to the use plan on file with every county that shows the current zoning. Available to anyone that wants to take the time to go look at it BEFORE buying into a “community”.
Ticks me off when folks buy without taking the time to research the area, then complain about something that was on the books prior to said folks even being there. And for those already there, they are the ones that voted it in.
MikeB
October 29th, 2010
9:59 am
Meanwhile Gwinnett says my house is worth $118k while my appraisal last week says its worth only $58k………. Two appraisals earlier this year said it was worth $81k, and then down to $70k.
If I take all of this at face value, I like others in my county are being over taxed by almost double in a worst case scenario…….. Not to mention that WITHIN a year my house has supposedly lost $23k in appraised value. County bureaucrats better start thinking about all the people like me, vs. the people in the category of those they have bought land from……….
There are alot more folks like me out there, and we vote. I don’t care what party you are from. Neither can claim innocence here. The days of the self serving politicians need to cease.
I intend on staying in my home, and paying my mortgage regardless of the appraisals, but I would like to see Govt. come to me for a change vs. me having to chase them for some kind of “consideration”. Show citizens that you care about regular, law abiding, tax paying, folks Gwinnett BOC. For a change………..
jm
October 29th, 2010
10:00 am
@@ – I know the “H” word most people would rightly use. I’d bet his response would be: I’m just playing the game according to the rules written by the powers that be.
marc from dudley hs
October 29th, 2010
10:00 am
Gwinnett….Success Lives here!….if you know the right people..
professional skeptic
October 29th, 2010
10:01 am
OH! I just thought of another question for Jim Galloway for the next Goobernatorial debate:
For Nathan Deal:
Mr. Deal, when you read about the Gwinnett verdict did you start sweating and/or shaking in your boots?
@@
October 29th, 2010
10:01 am
Ticks me off when folks buy without taking the time to research the area, then complain about something that was on the books prior to said folks even being there. And for those already there, they are the ones that voted it in.
AMEN to that!
Taking personal responsibility.
Bosch
October 29th, 2010
10:02 am
md,
And if zoning never changed you might have a point. Otherwise, I really don’t see it.
I’ve told you my position, and if you disagree with it, then so be it.
Greg
October 29th, 2010
10:03 am
Bosch…on Deal…I am with you!
To me in this election its the lesser of two evils. With Deal:
1. Not transparent on taxes
2. Hid his bad dealings with his daughters business
3. Shady dealings with the state and his salvage company
And this guy is supposed to do right by the people of GA?
He is a shady guy…but because he is a Republican in this Republican state he has a huge chance of winning.
And then people get mad when years later, they’ve found the crimes.
You get what you pay for…its soo true!
Hillbilly Deluxe
October 29th, 2010
10:04 am
@@-9:57
It’s all about whose ox is getting gored. That’s how everything in life works. (IW&SH)
Bosch
October 29th, 2010
10:05 am
“He is a shady guy…but because he is a Republican in this Republican state he has a huge chance of winning.”
Greg, he will win. The GOPers here in this state don’t care about any of that — they vote because he says he’s a Republican. They claim to hate Washington, but they vote for a guy who got kicked out of Washington because he was too corrupt. Go figure.
md
October 29th, 2010
10:05 am
“Taking personal responsibility.”
What’s that????
Paulo977
October 29th, 2010
10:07 am
USinUK ..
“Our Scumbag” Just as Deal is “Our Crook”!!!!
md
October 29th, 2010
10:09 am
“And if zoning never changed you might have a point. Otherwise, I really don’t see it. ”
And when it does change Bosch, most folks don’t even bother going to the rezoning meetings, which is their chance to voice their concerns. I’ve sat through many where there might have been 5 or 6 folks voicing their concerns. Yet when it gets changed, the folks come out of the woodwork bitching and moaning.
jm
October 29th, 2010
10:10 am
pardon my acro-language: WTF
http://www.ajc.com/news/atlanta/parents-tell-aps-board-699197.html
Greg
October 29th, 2010
10:12 am
Bosch…it makes no sense. I try to keep an open mind. You have to get past all of the he said she said nonsense and get to the facts.
Deal smells like a crook. Therefore…he is a crook.
For years, people said Kenerly is a crook. Today…its more apparent he is crook.
Why do people complain about government when they keep electing crooks.
For god sakes…Queen Palin was found to have violated ethics laws in Alaska…but people are ready to elect her President in 2012.
America has gone mad!
USinUK
October 29th, 2010
10:15 am
a halloween giggle: http://www.rhymeswithorange.com/2010/10/october-29-2010/
Bosch
October 29th, 2010
10:16 am
md,
Well, aren’t you a good civic citizen! Why can’t we all be like you? Sometimes that works (voice your concern) most of the time, it doesn’t. If it’s money involved and your not the one with it, voicing your concern is just wasted breath.
I too have voiced my concern with local politicians about this kind of thing, and they do nothing — they will allow development whenever to whoever wants it, and to me, it’s very detrimental to the community when things are built simply because someone can, with no foresight into if they should. I seriously don’t think most people see the correlation to that and a bad economic situation– but then again, I don’t vote for these guys (and a couple gals).
StJ
October 29th, 2010
10:16 am
The judge strong-armed the county into paying more than fair market value for the property? Has anything been done to him?
Greg
October 29th, 2010
10:16 am
Md…on zoning…
You are right. Few people voice concerns in meetings.
But how about this…
We elect people to do what is right for the people.
Scenario:
A landowner wants to open a gas station on his property right in the middle of a quiet residential neighborhood.
Does it take rocket science to know that this is a bad idea? Why should it even be open for discussion? Logic says…this would be voted down. However, many times the gas station will go up.
Makes no sense…..
Bosch
October 29th, 2010
10:18 am
“Why do people complain about government when they keep electing crooks.”
Million dollar question isn’t it Greg?
It’s because there is such a distrust for government now and there are so many people who listen to the five second sound bytes for news instead of really thinking about the issue and reading past the headline. Someone is found to be a crook on “your team” — why that’s impossible! It’s just political attack! And people fall for it.
Greg
October 29th, 2010
10:18 am
“However, many times the gas station will go up…”
Beacuse Republicans are all about business first….people second.
Greg
October 29th, 2010
10:22 am
Bosch…
“many people who listen to the five second sound bytes for news instead of really thinking about the issue and reading past the headline. Someone is found to be a crook on “your team” — why that’s impossible! It’s just political attack! And people fall for it.”
Yes sir….I see and hear it everyday…makes my skin crawl. People are zombies walking…they beleive everything they hear without searching for truth.
Latest Soundbyte: “Deal says people should jump off of a bridge because Roy Barnes is waiting to catch them with one of his cows.”
Now lets see what happens at Spaghetti Junction today!
md
October 29th, 2010
10:22 am
“Sometimes that works (voice your concern) most of the time, it doesn’t.”
It is no different than voting – 5 or 6 show up in opposition, then there is an assumption that the rest are in favor.
70/80% show up in opposition, they usually get the message – if not, they get voted out.
Simple process if folks take the time to make it work.
But, it is usually easier to let it happen and complain later.
Bosch
October 29th, 2010
10:26 am
md,
”
But, it is usually easier to let it happen and complain later.”
Just like politics, huh?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Greg,
“Now lets see what happens at Spaghetti Junction today!”
Make sure you have an umbrella in your car.
md
October 29th, 2010
10:27 am
“Does it take rocket science to know that this is a bad idea? Why should it even be open for discussion? Logic says…this would be voted down. However, many times the gas station will go up.”
You would be surprised who actually likes these stores in their neighborhoods, as it is sometimes folks that don’t even have a car. These stores are “convenience” stores, and become quite convenient for folks that don’t drive or can’t/don’t want to go too far.
Kind of like owning pets – everybody has a different reason.
White man
October 29th, 2010
10:28 am
Kenerly is a good man who made bad decisions.
jm
October 29th, 2010
10:31 am
White man is an apologist…. for the wrong group in my opinion. Not that being an apologist is ever a good thing.
White man
October 29th, 2010
10:33 am
Jm….Kevin is a person contact of mine. I know him and the situation in depth. The truth will come out.
120
October 29th, 2010
10:33 am
Excellent article Jay. Gwinnett County taxpayers have slept for years while the BOC robbed us blind and then called for tax increases to cover their theft. And we’re still not in the clear: Shirley Lasseter, the former mayor who tried to make Duluth a sanctuary city for illegals, is currently running the show.
Mike
October 29th, 2010
10:37 am
To those making fun of Republicans over this, I’d note that it’s Republicans who generally argue that government is as much or more a corrupting influence as it is a beneficial influence, and for that reason it is essential to limit the power of that government to limit the damage it can do. This is a prime example of that concept. I have no illusions that Republicans are any better than Democrats in resisting the lure of power and influence that accompanies public office, but since SOMEONE has to make decisions, all we can do is attempt to elect people who commit to limiting the influence and power of government. It is up to the electorate to pressure our representives relentlessly until a full-scale revamp of the county’s ethics, purchasing and open meetings rules is complete.
All that being said, what the Gwinnett County Commission has done here is beyond any excuse or explanation. Each individual on that board bears a share of the blame for what has happened, and I only wish we could replace all of them on Tuesday.
Also, it’s very, very uncomfortable agreeing with Jay Bookman.
White man
October 29th, 2010
10:37 am
I would love to see a blog on here to discuss the mexican border and the beheading that happened a few weeks ago.
Greg
October 29th, 2010
10:38 am
WM wrote:
“Kevin is a person contact of mine. I know him and the situation in depth. The truth will come out.”
Yep…that even his closest personal friends didn’t know the real Kevin.
You are going to be just as FlimFlammed as the rest of us….. He most likely fed you a line just like everyone else. That’s how deceitful people are….
Hillbilly Deluxe
October 29th, 2010
10:40 am
“However, many times the gas station will go up…”
Beacuse Republicans are all about business first….people second.
It was the same way when Georgia was an all Democratic state. Local zoning has never had anything to do with parties, it’s all about greasing the wheels.
Greg
October 29th, 2010
10:41 am
WM wrote – “I would love to see a blog on here to discuss the mexican border and the beheading that happened a few weeks ago.”
I know…however…today we are discussing your pal and his dirty deeds. No need to change the subject and hit the reset button today.
Thanks….
ROBOCOP
October 29th, 2010
10:42 am
The good news in Gwinnett is that the demographics have changed enough in the past 5 to 10 years where the GOP has less of strangle hold on most local and county elective offices as they’ve had. In a few more years, there will hopefully be more equality in the sharing of these offices.
For those of us who have lived in Gwinnett long enough (my family and I have been there 27 years), we have seen much change…not all of it very good. We’ve seen growth with little planning and almost no communication between county offices that have, for example, an interest or impact on traffic. Bannister’s reign as Commission Chairman was punctuated with huge mistakes in reading the desires of citizens/taxpayers. Decisions on garbage management were made with little or no public input, until taxpayers raised hell. He kept that style up, including decisions to raise property taxes with little prior discussions with taxpayers. He won’t be missed and neither will Kennerly.
I will speak personally on behalf of Danny Porter, the Republican DA, who has done a fantastic job having to respond to growth of criminal activity in the county. Given hiow the growth of crime far outstripped Porter’s resources, he’s shown what a great leader he is. I hope he will remain our DA for many years to come. I’m proud that he’s my DA.
Greg
October 29th, 2010
10:47 am
Robocop….I agree Porter is a no nonsense guy. I like him..
White man
October 29th, 2010
10:48 am
Greg, I understand your anger….however I am sure you dont know all of the facts and they will come out. Well for the most part. Do you know him, anything more than what you have read in the paper?
White man
October 29th, 2010
10:49 am
Danny Porter does a stand up job and has for years in Gwinnett.
Greg
October 29th, 2010
10:53 am
WM…
No I do not know him. However, I do not need to know him personally to know that he is a shady character.
For Instance, while its ok to have developers and builders as friends wouldn’t you say that it does not look good going on vacation with the same people who come to you for zoning and who you have done land deals with?
It looks bad because it is bad. What it tells the public is that he is proud to throw that up in the public’s face, and now it seems he was also sticking his hands in our pockets.
Even if I (as well as all of the other citizens are wrong..which we could be) he has to admit that he is at least wrong with putting himself in a position in which the public questions his motives….Right?
NJ
October 29th, 2010
11:08 am
Happens everywhere.
Actually with regard to health care, and health insurance, there is really no need for premium increases, because like all new technologies, medical technologies come down in cost rapidly as they become more common. On average the cost of medical technologies and treatments drop 8 percent per year. And they do not become common until they become older because health insurance companies simply do not pay for them when they are costly, except in the cadillac health care plans of the very wealthy, which are subsidized by taxpayer dollars. Which is why placing a cap on the amount of health benefits that an employee can be given by a company is a very good idea. Allow the standard policy that is given to a company employee to be deducted as a legitimate business expense, but tax anything above that as wage income, and you will see the rather pernicious distorting effects of tax preferences start to minimize.
One of the least discussed scandals of the recent housing market bubble and the wealth that was sucked out of the housing market in the form of mortgage fees on home owners and investment fees on mortgage based securities were the solid platinum health care plans that were being given in those industries. Executives were being given top of the line health care plans, at “group rates” that included things like daily massage therapy for their job related stress, greens fees for golf courses (exsercise is healthy). The average group rate for these plans was 50,000 dollars. Executives of course got special consideration and did not have to pay a cent for their policies while the employees did. Then add on the families who also got 50k level health insurance on the company dime and the business deduction subsidies, and you are talking the government providing a tax subsidy for 200,000 dollars worth of health insurance. This is one of the reasons that executives often choose a benefit that is way above average compared to what the average worker in the company is given rather than cash.
Economists have calculated the cost in revenues to the government for each dollar of health insurance that a company can deduct. For the average American in the 20 percent tax bracket, in a state with a 5 percent state income tax, the cost to the government is 37 cents for each dollar of health insurance given to an employee. As income goes higher and the more above average the health care plan, the greater the loss of government revenue.
A simple solution is to not set a fixed dollar amount that would be allowed as a reasonable business deduction, but rather use the average dollar amount for each company based on which offering the average employee takes and then only allow THAT as a reasonable deduction and also tax anything in excess of this as “wage income” for the employee.
Thats the scam. Since Reagan the American tax code is now designed to benefit the wealthy, where the government provides tax subsidies for the luxuries of executives, not merely the business costs.. It’s a sort of “me too” system, where if the average worker wants to shell out of pocket the extra 40,000 dollars in premiums for that luxury health plan, they can get it TOO (the companies are usually smart enough to not advertise the existence of these executive plans, knowing that this would adversely effect the average worker in the company’s morale a good deal), but these are usually too expensive for that and the executive gets special treatment by having the company pick up the entire tab for it. And the American taxpayer gets to subsidize these luxuries.
White man
October 29th, 2010
11:16 am
Greg are you still here?
Greg
October 29th, 2010
11:27 am
Yes…WM…I am still floating around…
NJ
October 29th, 2010
11:29 am
If politicians are corrupt, you have to also make the assumption that corporate executives are corrupt. There are many evidences of this. There is of course the unspoken rule in the corporate world where you rarely fire an executive for an amazingly costly screw up or extremely unethical behavior. You give them six months or a year to fine a NEW executive position and you hide the fact that they did something very wrong from the public, especially if it is a company with shareholders in the general public.
Conservatives will never get the fact that it is not business or the law that is the corrupting influence but “business”. Making money will ALWAYS lead to the desire to cut corners, bend the law, and eventually break it as the temptations become more and more a regular presence.
I worked in a law firm once. The young attorneys were all very idealistic kids. A lot of them washed out and decided to change profession because they felt they were constantly being asked to do things they considered “unethical” in the interests of clients. And for every “criminal” legal case or “Tort” there are 100 actions taken for “businesses” by law firms. That is the bread and butter. Firms kept on retainer for a “corporation” or small business or even a single person owning their own small business. My dad was a simple guy who built homes for people. When he traveled to other areas of the country to build for old customers from our home town, they bought his airline ticket and he showed up with a suitcase and his toolbox. My dad HAD to have a lawyer just to go over the contracts as well as the plans for the houses he was building to make sure they met code. My dad was constantly being cheated by the “businessmen” he did business with. He was simply an honest old worker who trusted to a handshake.
It’s not a chicken or egg situation. It is ALWAYS the businesses that inject the corrupting influence INTO any government at any level. Always looking for the edge. Always looking for a way of “externalizing” costs. Which is why so often at the local level, politicians are also local business men and business leaders rather than professional politicians.
NJ
October 29th, 2010
11:34 am
Wrong words. Its not politics or the law that is corrupt but the business world using it’s money and influence to try to effect government in their interests at the expense of every other group in society. The founders believed that they found a way of preventing this, and one of their methods was to tax, very highly any wealth that was not earned by ones own labor directly. To put it simply the founders DID tax the hell out of “corporate wealth” because they saw it as a method of a small group combining their wealth to attempt to take control of government in their own interests.
Unfortunately the legislation that gave corporations the same rights as people then allowed them to create “special” rights for themselves. And if you look at corporate law, you will see that corporations have now given themselves “special privilege” when initially all they were supposed to get was “equal rights” with average citizens.
Greg
October 29th, 2010
11:36 am
WM….
It seems its gotten very quiet. My last post is hard to answer for you (Maybe you are Kevin)….because its true.
But its ok. Like I said…the public knows better. We don’t have to wait until Kevin (wink wink) goes to court.
He put himself where he is by his own actions…period!
NJ
October 29th, 2010
12:10 pm
Another ugly truth. The reason Republicans hate social programs is that is money taken away from the corrupting possibilities of business.
A good example is Social Security. No matter how conservatives try to attack the program it has managed to do one thing. Take in a lot more money than it has paid out over 75 years. Over that period Social Security has collected 14 trillion dollars in payroll taxes and pay out about 10 trillion.
Compared to “private pensions” that is a profitable and long term going concern. Since Republicans decided to attack the “defined pension” plan in favor of “401k” and similar plans, more than 160,000 private pension plans have gone belly up. There is a private pension tsunami coming.. Most plans are massively underfunded and not actually prepared to even give back the money in a 401k if too many people come trying to take the money out at one time.
While Social Security still takes in more money than it pays out and will continue to do so until 2037 (when to be frank, most of the baby boomers will be pushing up daisies…in order to get their dire numbers Republicans make calculations based on every baby boomer being ALIVE in 2037). What they are trying to do is avoid paying back what has been borrowed FROM Social Security which is more than sufficient to keep the program solvent indefinitely. As long as the government makes good on the promise to pay back the excess it has borrowed from Social Security.
The REAL danger and distraction is in the private pension fund arena. Since 1974, 160,000 private pension funds have gone belly up due to underfunding on the employer side. Even 401k programs, the money for EVERY investor is actually NOT THERE. The funds only have to keep a small percentage of money on hand to pay off the investors. But the total amount of underfunding in these new style plans has now reached 450 billion dollars. Group pensions in workplaces are most in danger of severe failure.
The new concept of “Cash Balance” plans is another method by which corporations have simply lowered the value of the original pension plans that their employers took as a term of employment.
A prime example is the “servicing fees” that these plans charge. Between two and four percent. If an individual invests 100,000 dollars over 30 years at an average annual investment return of 8 percent, compounded, for every percentage point that the service fees go down provide an additional 214,000 dollars for the retiree upon retirement at the end of that 30 years. Or to put it simply, over 30 years the fees that go to the fund managers currently range between 428 and 856,000 over 30 years. Magic of compound interest. 100 dollars stuck in any stock that started out as a blue chip and was still a blue chip 30 years later is going to be worth around 15,000 dollars. (ATT is a good example) If you bought 100 dollar at ten a share in 1970 you’d be sitting on about 17,000 dollars return today.
NJ
October 29th, 2010
12:23 pm
Yes the idea that Republicans had NO SAY in Obamacare is another Republican falsehood, just as their simplistic statement that private insurance will never be able to compete with a government insurance plan because the government can ALWAYS raise taxes to subsidize the government insurance. Republicans put up alternative bills, and amendments, they got to the floor, they got voted on. But because they could not win or did not get their own way. Republicans decided to NOT play.
Most Republicans know that the public knows JACK about how the government works, so they will always distract the public from the fact that to raise those taxes, the government needs a lot more than a simple majority vote. That is, the government has to deal with Republicans who will always vote AGAINST raising that tax to fund the government health insurance plan, so government has to deal with fiscal forces that private business does not have to face. Businesses CAN just raise their prices and premiums at will to balance off any lost customers and sales they have had. Depending on how critical or luxurious that item or service is, the prices can be increased fairly steeply. People WILL pay a lot more for food to avoid starvation, but they might not purchase that Rolls Royce if the price doubles. Government and private business can compete without one having a special advantage over the other because both have different inhibiting factors that cancel any advantage out.
Nice Guy
October 29th, 2010
3:10 pm
Enter your comments here
Debra
October 30th, 2010
7:12 am
Re: Kenerly, moral of the story — never elect a developer to the board of commissioners. Good work Danny Porter.
Concerned Citizen
November 1st, 2010
2:14 am
NJ,
You make some interesting points. However, your anti-business bias is so obvious that it makes it difficult to trust anything you say. So, do you consider yourself a Socialist or a Communist?
Concerned Citizen
November 1st, 2010
2:21 am
NJ,
The reason Republicans (and a few Democrats) decided not “to play” with Obamacare, was because they disagreed fundamentally with its approach. If the Democrats were interested in solving the various problems with healthcare, instead of just advancing the Democrat’s agenda, they would have been open to creative ideas (many presented by Republicans) that would have met the same objective. Instead they played politics, ignoreed the obvious will of the people, and rammed it down our throats. Now, they (particularly President Obama) are going to learn what happens when you have no buy-in from the other party on something so fundamental to our country. They are now going to have to try to defend a pitiful bill/law from a motivated opposition that is about to regain some measure of power and will take it down the first chance they get.
Concerned Citizen
November 1st, 2010
2:22 am
ignored (correction)
Concerned Citizen
November 1st, 2010
2:24 am
On the topic at hand, good work Mr. Bookman. We will vote/throw the bums out who were involved in this wrong-doing, regardless of party.
Concerned Citizen
November 1st, 2010
2:30 am
Doggone/GA,
I like dogs too. But, in your case, your self-selection in avoiding Gwinnett was probably the best thing for all concerned.