Nazi hobbyist as congressional candidate? And it’s OK?
Rich Iott is the Republican candidate to represent Ohio’s Ninth Congressional District, a seat now held by Democrat Marcy Kaptur. But as Josh Green of the Atlantic points out, Iott has had a rather unusual hobby for someone with ambitions of serving his country in Congress.
He likes to dress up in the uniform of the Waffen SS.
GOP congressional candidate Rich Iott, second from right, in the uniform of a Waffen SS officer.
For several years, in fact, Iott was a member of a group calling itself the Wikings, created to honor those who fought in World War II in the 5th SS Panzer Division. The division comprised volunteers to the Nazi cause drawn from outside Germany. As the Wiking site explains:
Nazi Germany had no problem in recruiting the multitudes of volunteers willing to lay down their lives to ensure a “New and Free Europe”, free of the threat of Communism. National Socialism was seen by many in Holland, Denmark, Norway, Finland, and other eastern European and Balkan countries as the protector of personal freedom and their very way of life, despite the true underlying totalitarian (and quite twisted, in most cases) nature of the movement. Regardless, thousands upon thousands of valiant men died defending their respective countries in the name of a better tomorrow. We salute these idealists; no matter how unsavory the Nazi government was, the front-line soldiers of the Waffen-SS (in particular the foreign volunteers) gave their lives for their loved ones and a basic desire to be free.
Idealists, in the name of a better tomorrow, motivated by a basic desire to be free. Lovely.
As the Wiking site goes on to explain, “It is our aim to bring you a bit of actual history behind the men who fought against the “Bolshevik scourge”; volunteers who came from the various Northern European countries allied with Hitler’s Germany who only had a desire to see an end to Soviet Communism.”
Iott explains his former hobby by likening it to Civil War re-enacters, noting that “you couldn’t do Civil War re-enacting if somebody didn’t play the role of the Confederates.”
“I’ve always been fascinated by the fact that here was a relatively small country that from a strictly military point of view accomplished incredible things,” Iott told Green. “I mean, they took over most of Europe and Russia, and it really took the combined effort of the free world to defeat them. From a purely historical military point of view, that’s incredible.”
Iott’s explanation, strained as it is, might be slightly more convincing if he and his friends had chosen to emulate a standard unit of the German Army, or Wehrmacht. The moral culpability of draftees conscripted into the German military is at least arguable.
Instead, they chose to emulate a division of the Waffen SS, a volunteer arm of the Nazi Party that played a prominent role in the wholesale slaughter of 6 million Jews and millions of other “undesirables.” In fact. the infamous Josef Mengele served in the 5th division early in the war, and it was directly implicated in several mass murders of Jewish captives.
Armed with this information, the people of the Ohio Ninth will no doubt cast their own judgment on Iott at the ballot box this November. But what I find fascinating is the reaction to the discovery. Here we’ve got a congressional candidate as a member of a group touting Nazi SS volunteers as idealists fighting for freedom, yet prominent right-wing blogs (here and here and here, for example) are defending Iott as a victim of liberal smears.
Green is creating an issue where one really doesn’t exist, we’re told, because dressing like the Waffen SS is “basically like the reenactors who play the Red Coats in American Revolution reenactments.” This is just another example of “shoddy political hackery” by liberal journalists, a “pathetic attack” by leftists ready to “smear anyone for anything if they think it might help them hold onto power.”
In other words, they’re all right with this behavior, and are willing to defend it.
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763 comments Add your comment
Dave R.
October 10th, 2010
1:59 pm
“I want you to tell me how al Qeda is diffent from the Waffen SS.”
Uh, they refuse to face their enemy on the field of battle and instead use cowardly and indiscriminate attacks on women and children?
Dave R.
October 10th, 2010
2:00 pm
First on the 6th!
AmVet
October 10th, 2010
2:02 pm
No worries, Dave. .
I have made an airtight argument that this organization – by their own words – is MUCH, MUCH, MUCH more nefarious than just actors or reenactors. Yet YOU and your knee-jerk, right-wing pals refuse to even acknowledge this irrefutable and *over-arching fact*.
So YOU defend them. YOU run interference for them with childish red herrings. I will not,
YOU apologize for these men who SALUTE AND HONOR NAZIS everywhere until the cows come home for all I care.
Again, I aver it is repulsive.
On the other hand, this Jew will denounce such right-wing pieces of sh*t, until he takes his last breath…
Jay
October 10th, 2010
2:04 pm
Dave R., I don’t associate Mr. Iott with those things. HE choose to associate himself with them, by joining that group and remaining a member for several years.
HE linked himself to it.
Pete
October 10th, 2010
2:05 pm
To Paleo-Neo-Carlinist @ 1:18: I have thirty years experience teaching in elementary, middle, high school and college grades. And my lessons stick. I agree that “cross dressing” (what an ill-chosen homophobic term!) is not essential, but in addition to formal classroom education, I also have over twenty years effective experience in informal education. I know of what I speak.
Unfortunately, you are completely incorrect in claiming that “this is the difference between history (documenting fact) and politics (editorializing, or cherry-picking certain facts, and removing context from the discussion.” I am terribly sorry, but you are COMPLETELY incorrect, and you will never be able to win that argument, as your definition of history vs. politics is wrong. I am glad you are not a teacher!
paleo-neo-Carlinist
October 10th, 2010
2:06 pm
Dave R., they have faced us on the field of battle. in fact, I have conversed and correspondents with American soliders who have faced them in AfPak AND Iraq (as well as other “battlefields”, which cannot be identified). strike one. one which “battlefield” did Iraq engage us prior to the 2003 invasion and occupation? strike two. and all the “women and children” (including the mentally retarded, homosexuals and Gypsies) rounded up by the S.S. and killed in Nazi death camps, they were all “soldiers captured on the battlefield”? strike three – as the saying goes, turn left and go retake your seat in the dugout, meat.
Jay
October 10th, 2010
2:07 pm
Eric Cantor wants nothing to do with this garbage, and good for him:
In a debate on Fox News Sunday, Rep. Debbie Wasserman Schultz (D-Fla.) raised the example of Rich Iott, a member of the National Republican Congressional Committee’s “Young Guns” program, as an example of GOP extremism. The Atlantic reported that Iott participated in the reenactment group with his son as “a father-son bonding thing” and left three years ago after his son lost interest.
“She knows that I would absolutely repudiate that and not support that,” Cantor said.
“Well, you haven’t,” Wasserman Schultz said.
“I’m doing that right here,” Cantor, who is Jewish, responded. “I’m doing that right here. You know good and well I don’t support anything like that.”
JohnnyCleveland
October 10th, 2010
2:07 pm
Yep; but all those jerks who wear Che t-shirts aren’t wearing the uniform of commie murderers.
Blah, blah, blah.
Can’t wait until November. You want truth to power? Just wait.
RW-(the original)
October 10th, 2010
2:07 pm
The video looked just like scenes out of countless war movies, although the part where they were shooting from behind the hay bales reminded me of a scene from Silver Streak where the FBI stopped the train.
I also didn’t see the name Rich Iott in the credits.
gilley
October 10th, 2010
2:11 pm
Which is worse, this Republican dressing up as a pretend German soldier or Democratic Party icon Robert Byrd wearing a Ku Klux Klan robe for real?
Dave R.
October 10th, 2010
2:11 pm
AmVet, as usual you misrepresent me as someone who is “right-wing”. As I am constantly (and getting pretty tired of doing so) reminding YOU that I am the very definition of a centrist: fiscal conservative and social liberal. Too bad you never see anything from both sides of an issue as I do every time.
I do not defend the organization at all. I merely defend the man who simply wants to portray any side whatsoever in military re-enactments, whether SS, US, or CSA.
And Jay, playing an actor is NOT associating himself with any stated goals of any organization, no matter what your delusional mind may believe.
paleo-neo-Carlinist
October 10th, 2010
2:16 pm
Pete, I was a teacher (almost). took advantage of my 5th year (jock) to get certified, which included student-teaching at a local H.S. I did have the opportunity to present lectures on Vietnam, which was interesting, as a handful of students in the class were the children of Vietnamese immigrants (who had experieced the war firsthand). As I said, if a person wants to present information on the Waffen SS or the Nazi rise to power, it should be done dispassionately and without any “saluting” or “honoring” of ruthless killers, regardless of their motives (nebulous, racist, nationalist concepts like “freedom” or “ethnic pride”). do you make your students wear brown shirts when you “honor” the Waffen SS?
Bill
October 10th, 2010
2:18 pm
Looks like the Left is out of ammo when they cannot talk about their own policies and can only dig up peoples Hobbies as a look at them momment… to funny Next they will call some poor woman a witch, based off 19 year old video dug up by some washed up comedy hack …….Oh wait………LMAO
paleo-neo-Carlinist
October 10th, 2010
2:21 pm
Dave R., so while you don’t espouse the particular ideology or theology of the 9/11 terrorists, you defend al Qeada sympathizers or the radical Muslims who “celebrated” when the Towers came down? in keeping with the baseball metaphor, consider this “chin music”.
Dave R.
October 10th, 2010
2:22 pm
“Dave R., they have faced us on the field of battle.”
Really? Name a decisive victory for either side where the accumulated forces of one side or the other faced each other and a clear winner and loser were pronounced. Give me a location. Maybe a name that our armed forces can use as a rallying cry in future conflicts, maybe? “Yeah, we sure kicked their a$$es at GPS co-ordinates such and such” doesn’t exactly do it for me.
stands for decibels
October 10th, 2010
2:23 pm
“I’m doing that right here,” Cantor, who is Jewish, responded. “I’m doing that right here. You know good and well I don’t support anything like that.”
I can recall hearing, some years earlier, that Cantor might turn out to be one of the reasonable ones.
While there’s been little to suggest that would be true…who knows, perhaps there’s hope for him yet.
Yep; but all those jerks who wear Che t-shirts
yep, there’s been an epidemic of Democratic Congressional aspirants who’ve donned Che t-shirts of late. best do something about that.
Dave R.
October 10th, 2010
2:24 pm
“Dave R., so while you don’t espouse the particular ideology or theology of the 9/11 terrorists, you defend al Qeada sympathizers or the radical Muslims who “celebrated” when the Towers came down?”
Project much, Carlinist? You got nothing in your holster, bud. Nothing.
Actor. In a play. That’s all he was. Defend THAT.
paleo-neo-Carlinist
October 10th, 2010
2:24 pm
Bill, actually I think the “poor woman” (actually, not poor, just bankrupt) referred to herself as a witch. she may have changed her tune and renounced witchcraft, but like the Wiking video, the “19 year-old video” speaks for itself.
Dave R.
October 10th, 2010
2:26 pm
Cantor was, is, and will always be a spineless weasel.
JohnnyCleveland
October 10th, 2010
2:26 pm
How about Commie hobbysists as Democrats? Got any answers for that? Tell me, how many people are buried simply because they got in the way of communism? What a bunch of jerks.
Real people, with real brains, have thought about commie dogma as well. You can go screw yourselves. Nazi, commie, whatever, it’s all the same thing in the end: we lose our rights. WE have had enough. Go ahead with your BS about how “capitalism” has ruined life for most people. Most people believe YOU are the problem, not big business.
Can’t wait until November. You morons and your incredibly shrinking base of zeroes who actually believe your lefty garbage arguments are disappearing faster than the phony species you claimed were going extinct in order to foist your ridiculous “global warming” scam on all of us! Get it? We know it’s a lie. Some of us don’t want to be ruled by pederast congresspersons, jerk professors and twit corporate types running public corporations beholden to the likes of you.
Can’t wait until November. Can’t wait.
@@
October 10th, 2010
2:27 pm
jay, this becomes comical when I reflect back on how many right-wing “fanatics” (word typically used by left-wingers) railed on about images of Obama in Muslim attire (costume).
You, sir, have become what you detest.
Too funny.
Dave R.
October 10th, 2010
2:28 pm
Oh, and by the way, Carlinist, when I played cowboys and Indians as a kid, and had to take the Indian side, I didn’t believe that the taking of a human scalp was the proper thing to do, either.
Actor. In a play. Defend THAT.
josef nix
October 10th, 2010
2:32 pm
Much the same as re-enactors of whatever side in whichever war, be it the Persian Wars, the Napoleonic Wars, the American Revolution, the American Civil War, the Spanish-American War or what-have-you, there is something ironically amusing about pot-gutted, middle aged men huffing and puffing their “accuracy” in crossing the Delaware or up San Juan Hill. That said, boys will play war. Perhaps the matter really should be left there.
I have tried to stay out of this as much as possible since what I “feel” is highly colored by my connection to having worked with the records of the original Wikings. It has been, though, much at topic here in the house. We see little difference between the Wikings and the Buffalo Soldiers. Both were instrumental and directly responsible for grisly acts of genocide against defenseless men, women and children targeted for no other reason than that their “race” made them “vermin” worthy only of extermination.
The defense of both the Wikings and the Buffalo Soldiers reenactors is that they are trying to present history from a theatrical standpoint. That, in and of itself, is a respectable enough endeavor. It is the pick and choose of which of their activities they select for their reenactments.
Many of those defending or detracting from this particular bunch we are discussing today most likely had never heard of the original Wikings of the 5th Panzer. When I saw the name, a chill ran up my spine. This was the unit assigned to carry out the deportation of the surviving Jews of Budapest in the winter and spring of 1945. Of the many acts of unspeakable horror of the Shoah, this was in many aspects the most brutal of them all. This is not really the forum for an explanation of why that is so. Suffice it here to say that it came when even those responsible for the slaughter of the Jews of Europe were making deals and had come to the realization that Jews would be worth more alive than dead in what was coming. The Jews of Budapest were the bargaining chip. When the Wikings were chosen to “escort” these Jews, the decision was made because they “could be counted on.”
If, in the interest of presenting the accuracy of history, the reenactors are prepared to reenact the death marches to Hegyeshalom in all its grisly reality, then plaudits. The same may be said of the Buffalo Soldiers if they are willing to reenact the slaughter of the men, women, and children falling into their hands as units that “could be counted on” to do their part in bringing about the final solution to the Indian problem.
JohnnyCleveland
October 10th, 2010
2:33 pm
Gee, how about if we include the statements of Democrats here who have declared solidarity with commie loser murderers such as Stalin, Mao, Castro and Che?
What about that, losers? Any answers? Or do your idiot opinions only run one way? The days of free lefty thought are over, bastards. Start explaining your positions, or shut up.
paleo-neo-Carlinist
October 10th, 2010
2:33 pm
Really? Name a decisive victory for either side where the accumulated forces of one side or the other faced each other and a clear winner and loser were pronounced. Give me a location. Maybe a name that our armed forces can use as a rallying cry in future conflicts, maybe? “Yeah, we sure kicked their a$$es at GPS co-ordinates such and such” doesn’t exactly do it for me.
OK, first off, there does not have to be “a clear winner” in any battlefield engagement. In fact, see if you can wrap your head around this; by nature most wars are defined by a series of battlefield engagements, which do not produce a “clear” victor, and until one side captiulates, the war is not over (this is why the “Mission Accomplished” re-enactment was so pathetic). BUT, Google these words if you you like; Fallujah, Tora Bora, Operation Anaconda.
Project much, Carlinist? You got nothing in your holster, bud. Nothing.
Actor. In a play. That’s all he was. Defend THAT.
my point exactly. the 9/11 terrorists (and my friends and family members who are combat veterans) are not “actors in a play”. the bullets, wounds, and killing was all very realy, and NONE have ever “honored” war. in fact, few ever speak of their experiences from an emotional or political perspective.
Del
October 10th, 2010
2:35 pm
Saw Herman Cain live at First Redeemer church this morning. Great story from a truly remarkable man.
JohnnyCleveland
October 10th, 2010
2:36 pm
P.S. Pals: This is about MY life and MY children. Tell Me how there is one iota of difference between communism and fascism, and I’ll listen.
You have no answer to that, because there isn’t one. Meanwhile, let me run naked through the park, and I’ll tell you we’ve got a free society.
Jay
October 10th, 2010
2:37 pm
You go right ahead, Johnny.
You go right ahead and post statements from Democratic officials or candidates in support of Mao, Stalin, etc.
If you got it, post it. We’ll wait….
Jay
October 10th, 2010
2:38 pm
and no, there’s not much practical difference between fascism and communism. So who said there was?
paleo-neo-Carlinist
October 10th, 2010
2:39 pm
Dave R., when you’re trying to get out of a hole, the best thing to do is stop digging. again, when is the last time you played cowboys and indians? when is the last time you wrote a letter to Santa Claus, expected candy from the Easter Bunny, or worried about a Boogie Man living under your bed? these behaviors and world views are infantile. children are ‘idealists’ who cling to concepts and dreams in lieu of the sobering realities of life. you are dangerously close to being shipped to Gwinnett (AAA). welcome to “the show”.
Pete
October 10th, 2010
2:40 pm
To Paleo-Neo-Carlinist @ 1:29 — You reacted a little too serious about my overly-sarcastic comparison of the Terminator, but you made my point for me better than I did. So Cameron, Schwartzenegger, et al., are not to be condemned by their telling a entertaining ablbeit fictional story, but Rich Iott and his colleagues (and myself and, it would seem, effective world history teachers in general) are to be condemned because we will not allow the world to forget (and thereby possibly repeat) mistakes against humanity that have been made throughout history?
And to AmVet, will you please (PLEASE!) stop repeating your oft-stated lie that the Wiking group supports and salutes (or whatever wrong words you are using) Nazis? They don’t, and I tire of you claiming otherwise. Virtually all military reenactors work hard to honor and salute the efforts and (often ultimate) sacrifice that soldiers – individual men, not political parties – gave in service of their respective countries. Even when such service was under the rule of corrupt or evil individuals, it is the individual servicemen we honor.
As I said, one of my military impressions is that of a Soviet frontovik. While Stalin was arguably a more evil and cruel ruler than Hitler, I strive to honor and salute the individual people who served the country — independent of the questionable politics of its leader, as those typically did not enter into the individual soldier’s life or way of thinking.
Okay, I admit it — while we as reenactors strive to paint as fully historically-accurate picture of individuals as possible in the narrow window of time that the average spectator will give us in our presentations, sometimes we must gloss over the grand political goals and/or motivations held by the leaders and/or governments of those individuals.
Paleo-Neo-Carlinist condemns these actions, claiming (incorrectly) that we are editorializing, or cherry-picking certain facts, and removing context from the discussion (and shame on you, for this is exactly what many history books do). So, AmVet, your argument is with Paleo-Neo-Carlinist, who feels that individual men cannot be honored and saluted without spreading the political messages of their countries. It is my expert and informed opinion that Rich Iott does not do this; but Paleo-Neo-Carlinist says that Iott is REQUIRED to spread Nazi ideals if he is to parfticipate in a World War Two reenactment.
getalife
October 10th, 2010
2:40 pm
The dems attack:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Hvm0cWgHp6A&feature=player_embedded
Dave R.
October 10th, 2010
2:40 pm
So your last post was simply long-and for “I got nothing, Dave”, right, Carlinist?
Try to stay on target, please.
Actor. In a play. I guess Curt Jurgens, Werner Klemperer and every other person who every played a N a z i in movies and TV should be reviled for even thinking that they should be a part of re-enacting history.
Actor. In a play. If you can’t get past that simply and irrefutable fact, you aren’t worth debating.
Del
October 10th, 2010
2:41 pm
On this Lott guy and his hobby, let the people in Ohio decide. I’m sure the voters there know more about the issue than anyone here. Back to Football.
@@
October 10th, 2010
2:43 pm
josef:
Here’s a personal re-enactment that you’ll enjoy.
When I first began attending the church where I’m presently a member, we had a preacher who was forever fussing over my clothes. Fixing my collar, removing loose strings, etc. Anyhoo, many of the members questioned whether he had a thing for me. Now we all know that parishioners never question their pastors’ behavior….or so left-wingers would have us believe.
I kept telling everyone they were full of crap…that there was nothing sinister in his attention to detail. He was a married man with two children.
Turned out he was gay.
For the life of me, I can’t recall how that discovery came to light. I guess I wasn’t paying attention to details.
(ISH)
RW-(the original)
October 10th, 2010
2:44 pm
JohnnyCleveland,
Here’s one you give Jay.
RW-(the original)
October 10th, 2010
2:45 pm
can give
geez
IHB
AmVet
October 10th, 2010
2:45 pm
Good times.
Every single con here defending their Republican Nazi saluters and honorers…
Not that they wouldn’t have taken EXACTLY the same positions had this guy been a non-Republican.
They are a tragically and transparently laughable lot…
RW-(the original)
October 10th, 2010
2:49 pm
People should really check out the context of this salute and honor quote that’s being obliterated beyond any recognition.
This link might go to the main page so if it does you’ll have to click the Wiking History link to see the real quote and see what they’re talking about
Dave R.
October 10th, 2010
2:54 pm
Oh, and while we’re at it, let’s all vilify those people playing parts in all the upcoming “horror houses” this Halloween who represent axe murderers, demons and underworld figures as well.
Surely, they must believe in the “cause” of those characters since they’re playing them, right?
Actors. What a despicable bunch of low-lifes they are.
JohnnyCleveland
October 10th, 2010
2:59 pm
Obama’s pals are all leftie sicko loser schmucks. I came after that. You twits are are all being retired now.
Have fun being relegated to the closet. Nobody believes your lefty BS any more. Ta!
paleo-neo-Carlinist
October 10th, 2010
2:59 pm
To Paleo-Neo-Carlinist @ 1:29 — You reacted a little too serious about my overly-sarcastic comparison of the Terminator, but you made my point for me better than I did. So Cameron, Schwartzenegger, et al., are not to be condemned by their telling a entertaining ablbeit fictional story, but Rich Iott and his colleagues (and myself and, it would seem, effective world history teachers in general) are to be condemned because we will not allow the world to forget (and thereby possibly repeat) mistakes against humanity that have been made throughout history?
Pete, see my previous ’stop digging’ advice to Dave R. you guys dress up and act like the Waffen SS so that we “do not repeat” history? c’mon, you have to do better than that. and again, I think there is value in the candid and dispassionate presentation of history. I just don’t see it in the Wiking video, website disclaimer, etc. it seems to me the “smoking gun” is the use of the word “honor”, which is used in defense of the grown-ups playing army, as opposed to the Waffen SS volunteers. again, the line between ‘entertainment’ and ‘education’ is very clear (and I can think of 6 million examples, or 50-60 million if you want to cite the total number of death, which were the result of Hitler, the Nazi’s and the Waffen SS’s desire to rid Europe of “communists and bolseviks”). I repeat my intial comment that this stuff is porn. if you get off on it, great, but don’t try to pass it off as some historical excercise.
Virtually all military reenactors work hard to honor and salute the efforts and (often ultimate) sacrifice that soldiers – individual men, not political parties – gave in service of their respective countries. Even when such service was under the rule of corrupt or evil individuals, it is the individual servicemen we honor.
Here’s an idea, let combat vets “honor” themselves. Let warriors define their experiences. again, this is bordering on voyerism.
Paleo-Neo-Carlinist condemns these actions, claiming (incorrectly) that we are editorializing, or cherry-picking certain facts, and removing context from the discussion (and shame on you, for this is exactly what many history books do). So, AmVet, your argument is with Paleo-Neo-Carlinist, who feels that individual men cannot be honored and saluted without spreading the political messages of their countries. It is my expert and informed opinion that Rich Iott does not do this; but Paleo-Neo-Carlinist says that Iott is REQUIRED to spread Nazi ideals if he is to parfticipate in a World War Two reenactment.
don’t put words in my mouth (well, OK, speaking, thinking, and I guess KILLING for others was a big part of the Nazi playbook, so I guess, you can’t help yourself.). see above. I do not believe it is possible to “honor” warriors. only warriors can honor themselves, and the warriors I’ve met would say the same thing. they’ll usually reluctanly answer questions, but they do so in the interest of historical accuracy, and nothing more.
JohnnyCleveland
October 10th, 2010
3:00 pm
Kent State: Can’t spell, can’t add, can’t figure, Kent State!
paleo-neo-Carlinist
October 10th, 2010
3:07 pm
So your last post was simply long-and for “I got nothing, Dave”, right, Carlinist?
if you think the last three hours of posts is “nothing”, I can’t help you.
Actor. In a play. I guess Curt Jurgens, Werner Klemperer and every other person who every played a N a z i in movies and TV should be reviled for even thinking that they should be a part of re-enacting history.
I’m sorry, I never saw the Hogan’s Heroes disclaimer, in which the producers, actors, and directors noted their desire to “honor” the Nazi war machine? please direct me to the information/data, which confirms Hogan’s Heroes (like the Wikings) is a historically accurate “reenactment” of life in a German POW camp? in fact, Google the word “satire” or “comedy”. you might find that in their own way, the producers of Hogan’s Heroes were condeming and ridiculing “the Gestapo” as opposed to honoring them. here’s one more tip; the Movie and television show M*A*S*H was actually “anti-war”. sorry if this confuses you.
Dave R.
October 10th, 2010
3:08 pm
“I just don’t see it in the Wiking video, website disclaimer, etc. it seems to me the “smoking gun” is the use of the word “honor”, which is used in defense of the grown-ups playing army, as opposed to the Waffen SS volunteers.”
And as soon as you can produce one shred of evidence that Mr. Iott was responsible for, or agreed with, any of the words used by that group, you may have that “smoking gun”.
Right now, all you have is poutrage.
Hillbilly Deluxe
October 10th, 2010
3:10 pm
josef
My view on re-enactments is somewhat similar to yours. I guess in one sense, re-enactors are to be commended for trying to keep history alive or make people aware of it but at the end of the day, they get to load up and go home; real soldiers can’t do that. So now matter how they might try, it can never be realistic.
Midori
October 10th, 2010
3:11 pm
well, I for one wants to score a Che t-shirt!!!
where can I pick one up?
Dave R.
October 10th, 2010
3:11 pm
Actually, Carlinist, the last 3 hours of your posts WERE a waste of my time.
Actor. In a play. Nothing more, nothing less. Until you can acknowledge that simple, unchallenged fact, debating you is pointless, as you are not even grounded in reality.
Dave R.
October 10th, 2010
3:13 pm
Gee, Midori, I would have thought you’d have the exclusive rights to THAT franchise. . .
Midori
October 10th, 2010
3:14 pm
Good times.
Every single con here defending their Republican Nazi saluters and honorers…
of course, AmVet.
Of course.
these people are masters of defending the indefensible…..
Midori
October 10th, 2010
3:15 pm
Dave,
sorry to disappoint.
how about letting me have one from your stash?
paleo-neo-Carlinist
October 10th, 2010
3:15 pm
Dave R. one more, then have to to go make chili and watch the Braves. “evidence”? excuse me, are we in court? THE VIDEO AND THE DISCLAIMER ARE THE EVIDENCE (the photo doesn’t help his case, either). why do you defend this guy? as JB noted, he professed his “allegiance” to this group and he bought and donned the uniform. it’s like the Wikings “defending” the atrociites of the Waffen SS/Nazi’s. as I said, I think the Byrd/KKK thing has been played out, but when is the last time you saw the reenactment of a lynching or Klan rally (films, TV, aside). when is the last time you saw ANYONE besides David Duke “defend” the KKK?
paleo-neo-Carlinist
October 10th, 2010
3:18 pm
Dave R., your time is your time, and how you chose to use it or waste it is your choice (just as Lott or lott or whatever his name is) can spend his time playing Hitler Youth. I cannot and will not spend my time establishing the difference between fact and fiction. I cannot and will not spend my time establishing the difference between a documentary and comedy/satire.
chuck
October 10th, 2010
3:20 pm
hmmmmm, a historical reenactor who dresses up as a German soldier or a REAL socialist. I’ll take the fake Nazi Jay.
Dave R.
October 10th, 2010
3:25 pm
Carlinist, just as Jay is not grounded in reality, neither are you. Just because you “sign on” to do a re-enactment, doesn’t mean you’ve joined the organization, or even agree with their principles.
I defend the guy because he’s an actor. Nothing more, nothing less. I defend the guy because of the destructive nature of politics that has become almost a blood sport in this country. I defend the guy because all he wants to do is play a part with a costume and a fake gun for entertainment, and you knuckle-draggers are all over him as if he’s the second coming of Hitler.
Pete
October 10th, 2010
3:25 pm
Paleo-neo-Carlinist said (@ 2:16 pm): “As I said, if a person wants to present information on the Waffen SS or the Nazi rise to power, it should be done dispassionately and without any “saluting” or “honoring” of ruthless killers, regardless of their motives (nebulous, racist, nationalist concepts like “freedom” or “ethnic pride”). do you make your students wear brown shirts when you “honor” the Waffen SS?”
I can no longer understand your stance. You previously implied that the ideals and political drives of governments must be advertised and spread when talking about individual lives, because any attempt to “cherry-pick” one small aspect of history “out of context” is completely inaccurate.
Don’t try to put your support of Nazism or the SS onto me, as it canno’t stick. In addition, your sudden attempt to claim for yourself my own firm belief — that the history of WWII Germany can be taught without trying to convert the students into the Nazi Party — comes a little too late, as you already firmly stated the exact opposite belief.
—-
I may be motivated to write more, but I think I need to state the following and just end with this: What we historical reenactors do is deeply appreciated by individuals from among those who we salute: the men and women of the various armed forces throughout history. Please go right ahead and continue judging us in ingorance if that is what you choose to do (if you have never attended a serious WWII reenactment, then you have no informed opinion) and continue to vote ignorantly against those whose actions are beyond your limited abilities to research. The main difference between World War Two reenactments and Civil War reenactments (and other earlier wars) is that veterans of “our” war actually show up at our events. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen tears come to the eyes of veterans when they stand in our camps, see the Living Tribute that we are giving them and tell us things like: “I am touched that you got it right.” Sometimes, all they want to do is sit in our camps, our tents, our vehicles or our trenches and reminisce over the comrades they lost in action.
It is clear to me that no one responding to this blog is a military veteran (at least not all of those who still refuse to understand what Rich Iott and I and thousands of others are doing), as our efforts would never be lost on them.
I cannot support the anti-American sentiment that so many of you have against the men and women of the Armed Forces. I do not actively seek nor support war or killing or armed combat — but I support those who have served (and presently serve — my own family members included) our country through military service. I can support my government — my country — my President — without signing up as a card-carrying member of the Nazi, Communist or Republican parties, despite AmVet’s claims to the contrary.
Dave R.
October 10th, 2010
3:26 pm
“how about letting me have one from your stash?”
Trust me, Midori, if I ever had one of those (fat chance!) it would have been burned as trash long ago.
Midori
October 10th, 2010
3:28 pm
of course you will, Chuck.
Dave – just following “your” lead…..
paleo-neo-Carlinist
October 10th, 2010
3:29 pm
chuck, you are aware the word Nazi is derived from the words national(ist) and socialist? my Deutche is a bit rusty, but I believe Nazi is an acronym for National Socialist German WORKERS Party. to wit; when a person “dresses up as a German soldier” is IS dressing up as a “real socialist”. so mein freund, the difference between the Nazi’s and the Russians was merely “nationalism” (or, racism/anti-semitism). you and Dave R. can ride the same bus back to the minor league camp.
Dave R.
October 10th, 2010
3:31 pm
Now that I’ve wasted another day arguing with the blood-thirsty mob over nothing of any importance (a typical Bookman column), I’m going to go watch some football.
Even mindless entertainment is more intellectually stimulating than arguing with those who cannot accept reality when it stares them in the face.
Paulo977
October 10th, 2010
3:36 pm
paleo-neo
Carlinist
Were these Muslims?
http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/fiveisraelis.html?q=fiveisraelis.html
paleo-neo-Carlinist
October 10th, 2010
3:39 pm
flagged again – Dave R., but the Meister Brau down. it’s not “entertainment”. The Wiking website and other info (presented by the group) suggests it is some sort of history lesson. Hogan’s Heroes was “entertainment”. Saving Private Ryan and even the Quentin Tarantino film with the word Inglorious in thre title was “entertainment”. this group openly, and shamelessly professes it’s respect and seeks to “honor” the non-Germans who volunteered to be a part of the Nazi war machine. the fact that you continue to argue this is some sort of “acting” (dramatic production) as opposed to a sick, twisted embrace of Nazi Germany is staggering. these aren’t paid Hollywood actors or children playing war. they are adults (one who wants to become a member of Congress) “spinning” history.
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notmike
October 10th, 2010
3:40 pm
Nice to see that Jay is focused on the issues. Hope and change and all that crap.
AmVet
October 10th, 2010
3:43 pm
“I cannot support the anti-American sentiment that so many of you have against the men and women of the Armed Forces”
Puke. More puerile nonsense.
The guy is even starting to eerily sound like the Nazis…
paleo-neo-Carlinist
October 10th, 2010
3:46 pm
“I keep trying to get out, and they keep pulling me back in” – Michael Corleone – GFIII
Paulo977, excellent question. why don’t we ask Charlie Sheen? truth is, I don’t know and I don’t care. Either way, I will not rely on any future 9/11 reenactors or conspiracy theorists to formulate my opinion of what happened on 9/11.
JamesNYC
October 10th, 2010
3:49 pm
@ DaveR: Have another look at my 1:11AM post. It’s not like playing a Nazi in a movie or play because this group chose to SPECIALIZE in playing Nazi’s.
Without knowing him I can’t say if he’s a racist or not, but don’t you think words on the Waffen SS website were just a bit creepy?
I have no idea what this guy is like as a person. For all I know, he and his Waffen SS friends are a bunch of super closet gay guys with Nazi fetishes and they all had an orgy right after this picture was taken lol.
But I digress. Point is, racist or not, this guy and his buddies sound pretty weird.
Southern Comfort
October 10th, 2010
3:54 pm
Good grief. The smoke monster ate my post. I guess I was a little too blunt for tv.
Anyway, the point I wanted to make is that, in America we have the freedom to express ourselves to an extent. Sometimes that expression will upset or offend others. If the voters in his area don’t agree with his politics or his choice of entertainment, they will make it known in Nov.
We can’t vote for him directly. However, we can vote for people who we feel will compliment or counteract him depending on how we feel about his politics and choice of entertainment. As far as trying to compare acting in movies vs re-enactors, that’s just like saying Dale Earnhardt Sr. is just like Jesse Owens. They both raced for a living and won many races. However, one did it behind the wheel of a car while the other one did it on foot.
paleo-neo-Carlinist
October 10th, 2010
4:10 pm
Pete, Pete, Pete. like Amvet, I will break my own rules and I will “cherry-pick” (in the interest of time).
I can no longer understand your stance.
- I am not responsible for your ability to understand the words/ideas of others. Again, I think this has to do with your link to the Nazis. they were very good at helping Germans “understand” why “undesirables” had to be exterminated.
You previously implied that the ideals and political drives of governments must be advertised and spread when talking about individual lives, because any attempt to “cherry-pick” one small aspect of history “out of context” is completely inaccurate.
- excuse the pun, but I “do not understand” this sentence. I implied nothing of the sort, and if, in fact you do not undertsand my position, how could you possibly determine what I have “implied”. let me guess, you teach at a public (government) school? (that’s a neo-con double-entendre).
Don’t try to put your support of Nazism or the SS onto me, as it canno’t stick.
- aha, the inverted “I’m glue, you’re rubber” ruse. where have I ever “supported Nazism”?
In addition, your sudden attempt to claim for yourself my own firm belief — that the history of WWII Germany can be taught without trying to convert the students into the Nazi Party — comes a little too late, as you already firmly stated the exact opposite belief.
- again, mein freund, where have I suggested teaching history requires (or does not require) “converting students into “Nazi Party”?
I may be motivated to write more, but I think I need to state the following and just end with this: What we historical reenactors do is deeply appreciated by individuals from among those who we salute: the men and women of the various armed forces throughout history.
- this is speculation at best. you should have been here yesterday, when I referred to a friend who served as a Ranger in Vietnam. let me assure you, he did not speak highly of reenactors. if you feel the need to fabricate the gratitude of combat veterans, I can’t stop you.
Please go right ahead and continue judging us in ingorance if that is what you choose to do (if you have never attended a serious WWII reenactment, then you have no informed opinion)
- oh, so let me get this straight, I am persecuting and judging you? interesting position (you sound like the holocaust deniers and anti-semites who tell Jews to “deal with it”).
and continue to vote ignorantly against those whose actions are beyond your limited abilities to research. The main difference between World War Two reenactments and Civil War reenactments (and other earlier wars) is that veterans of “our” war actually show up at our events. I cannot tell you how many times I have seen tears come to the eyes of veterans when they stand in our camps, see the Living Tribute that we are giving them and tell us things like: “I am touched that you got it right.” Sometimes, all they want to do is sit in our camps, our tents, our vehicles or our trenches and reminisce over the comrades they lost in action.
again, and I will tell you that the WWII and Vietnam vets I have met over the years shed tears without any reenacting or “honor” on my part.
It is clear to me that no one responding to this blog is a military veteran (at least not all of those who still refuse to understand what Rich Iott and I and thousands of others are doing), as our efforts would never be lost on them.
- good to know. I just when to Iott’s website and did not see any mention of his combat experience in Vietnam or his enlistment in the armed services of other nations (who fight Boleshviks and Communists). in fact, he seems to be a pathetic, weekend warrior who attaches himself to military units, but strangely enough, has never attached himself to anything remotely close to battle (real battle that is). he graduated H.S. in 1969 (18 years-old), but waited some 12 or 13 years before joining the Ohio Military Reserve? c’mon. were this guy John Kerry or Max Cleland (decorated combat veterans) you’d be “swiftboating” him. you jus showed your true colors, pal. I don’t want you to “understand” me because you could not possibly hope to understand me.
I cannot support the anti-American sentiment that so many of you have against the men and women of the Armed Forces. I do not actively seek nor support war or killing or armed combat — but I support those who have served (and presently serve — my own family members included) our country through military service. I can support my government — my country — my President — without signing up as a card-carrying member of the Nazi, Communist or Republican parties, despite AmVet’s claims to the contrary.
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Pete
October 10th, 2010
4:16 pm
To Paleo-Neo-Carlinist @ 2:59 —
Ahh — got it. You continually persist in trying to label me as a Nazi! How historically ignorant of you! Now I understand why your attempts to become a teacher were (fortunately!) unsuccessful. “Digging,” indeed! Wow. Can you dredge up some additional completely inaccurate names to throw at me? You forgot baby-eater — that’s as accurate as any of the other labels you have thrown at me.
You wrote: “again, the line between ‘entertainment’ and ‘education’ is very clear…”
And I again thank God that you were never licensed to teach the impressionable youth of our country.
I must state, however, that your specific “examples” are deeply insulting to the millions of Jews, Gypsies, Poles, Russians and others who died under the hands of the Nazis, and to their survivors (my familiy included) and the countless unborn decendants who were wiped from existance. I have stronger and more explicit words with which to label your blatant pro-Nazi anti-Semitism, but they would prevent the posting of this message.
You wrote: “I repeat my intial comment that this stuff is porn. if you get off on it, great, but don’t try to pass it off as some historical excercise.”
“Porn.” Labelling “history” as some sort of illicit voyeristic filth. Wow. Yes, I realize that I should have seen that coming from you. And it IS “some historical exercise” — No argument of yours is going to change that fact… but nice try anyway.
You wrote: “Here’s an idea, let combat vets “honor” themselves. Let warriors define their experiences.”
What a superb idea! Forgive me, please — I kept thinking you were opposed to Rich Iott, but now I see you are actually railing against his opponent, Nancy Kaptur (D), who successfully lobied to establish the first WWII memorial in Washington, DC. How dare she (you ask), when the veterans should have done this by themselves? What business of hers was it to honor war veterans?
But as a non-sarcastic response to your ignorant question: They do. And we help and support them in this activity. Do you? (No, you obviously stand in the way of such support). But — do not talk to me again about this or any related topic until you actually attend a World War Two reenactment, speak to a wartime veteran in attendance, and get his or her opinion of what we are doing. Until then, you are voicing a completedly uneducated opinion and are unable to inteligently discuss this topic.
You said: “I do not believe it is possible to “honor” warriors. only warriors can honor themselves, and the warriors I’ve met would say the same thing. they’ll usually reluctanly answer questions, but they do so in the interest of historical accuracy, and nothing more.”
I completely rest my case. You have absolutely no experience in this area. You have no knowledge or experience whatsoever of effective teaching methods. You have no understanding of history (despite your ridiculous claims to to the contrary — oh, and I am King of the Planet Mars).
You have obviously never spoken to any military veteran or active combat soldier (”warrior”? what a poorly chosen word), or — if I am to judge from your final statement as well as from your earlier stated opinions — you did so in an insultingly abrasive manner that offended them from talking to you. I have spoken with and interviewed many scores of military veterans, and have never (ever) experienced the relunctance which you claim that they all have. I can cite innumerable references that completely prove your statements wrong, but there is no point: I know you are wrong and anyone (other than yourself) can see that you are wrong. So, I am done with you.
‘Bye! Try to be happy. But you might be able to do so by reading some books.
paleo-neo-Carlinist
October 10th, 2010
4:18 pm
SoCo, again, see my comparison to porn. sure, this stuff is Constitutionally protected, but it doesn’t change history, or suggest that the reenactments of Waffen SS (or Civil War) battles have ANY connection to the real thing (think Penthouse Forum, “Dear Sirs, I am a student at a small midwestern university, and I never thought I would be writing such a letter, but…” well within the parameters of the First Amendment, but probably more creative writing, than first-person account of actual events (more “entertainment” than “history”)
Southern Comfort
October 10th, 2010
4:28 pm
paleo
I missed that comparison, but I understand your point. That’s kinda what I was getting at. Porn, in many of it’s forms, is not illegal per se, but it is frowned upon by many. I have my issues with re-enactments, but I can see some historical value of them if they’re historically accurate.
My larger point was/is that we, here in GA, can not vote for or against him. All that’s happening here is that everyone’s tinkling into the wind of a Cat 5 hurricane and trying to stay dry. It’s an exercise in futility of the highest point. I don’t see anyone changing their minds based on what’s said on this blog, nor do I see anyone here affecting the vote there. The best we can do is vote for whom we feel would be best for the country right here. As a example, I think Jay would have been better off writing about some of the issues that affects GA or Atlanta directly. That’s where our opinions matter most.
josef nix
October 10th, 2010
4:47 pm
SoCo
I have my own qualms about why Jay posted this in the first place. I also have my qualms about Cantor being brought into it.
paleo-neo-Carlinist
October 10th, 2010
4:49 pm
Ahh — got it. You continually persist in trying to label me as a Nazi!
If I have, I apologize. I believe I have “labeled” you a revisionist historian, or misguided (and dangerous) in your attempts to present 20th century military history. I don’t know if Iott is a “Nazi” bu he sure has a strange hobby, if he is not. oh, and for the record, you are the one who came here to “defend” Iott. why don’t you call your “friend” and have him defend himself?
How historically ignorant of you! Now I understand why your attempts to become a teacher were (fortunately!) unsuccessful.
I could have been a teacher, but I chose not to teach. I do not regret my choice.
“Digging,” indeed! Wow. Can you dredge up some additional completely inaccurate names to throw at me? You forgot baby-eater — that’s as accurate as any of the other labels you have thrown at me.
I don’t understand the reference to the word “digging”
You wrote: “again, the line between ‘entertainment’ and ‘education’ is very clear…” And I again thank God that you were never licensed to teach the impressionable youth of our country.
1 – you would do well to not involve (your) God in this. lot’s of folks have been killed in His name as well. and as stated, it was not God who kept me from a career in education. it was my choice. and you want to know why? I don’t view teenagers as “impressionable”. I view them as autonomous, independent thinkers, and I had hoped to challenege them to think for themselves, which was discouraged and condemned by the “educators” for whom I worked.
I must state, however, that your specific “examples” are deeply insulting to the millions of Jews, Gypsies, Poles, Russians and others who died under the hands of the Nazis, and to their survivors (my familiy included)
- I will grant you the right to speak for your family and none other. you do not speak for Jews, Gypsies, Poles, or Russians anymore than you “speak” for the combat veterans you claim to “honor”. Oh that’s right, you’re not a Nazi, you just “play one” on weekends.
and the countless unborn decendants who were wiped from existance. I have stronger and more explicit words with which to label your blatant pro-Nazi anti-Semitism, but they would prevent the posting of this message.
- yeah, blame the moderator. again, I cannot, nor will I attempt to respond to your belief that I am anti-Semitic or pro-Nazi. you’re rubber and I am glue. I can live with this.
You wrote: “I repeat my intial comment that this stuff is porn. if you get off on it, great, but don’t try to pass it off as some historical excercise.”
“Porn.” Labelling “history” as some sort of illicit voyeristic filth.
where did I ever refer to porn as “filth”? again, you’re showing your true colors, my friend. porn is porn, and I will let those who consume it, as well as those who do not, form their own opinion.
Wow. Yes, I realize that I should have seen that coming from you. And it IS “some historical exercise” — No argument of yours is going to change that fact… but nice try anyway.
in the interest of time, no comment.
You wrote: “Here’s an idea, let combat vets “honor” themselves. Let warriors define their experiences.”
What a superb idea! Forgive me, please — I kept thinking you were opposed to Rich Iott, but now I see you are actually railing against his opponent, Nancy Kaptur (D) – where have I endorsed or “supported” Nancy Kaptur?
who successfully lobied to establish the first WWII memorial in Washington, DC. How dare she (you ask), when the veterans should have done this by themselves? What business of hers was it to honor war veterans?
Exactly. here’s a true story. when I was a wee lad, I played my first sandlot baseball game on a field named after the first Vietnam KIA from my home town. I’d just as soon played on a nameless field and not have to see “war memorials” when I visit DC. you are not from Atlanta. three times a week I jog through Oakland Cemetery. I see all the memorials I need to see.
But as a non-sarcastic response to your ignorant question: They do. And we help and support them in this activity. Do you? (No, you obviously stand in the way of such support). But — do not talk to me again about this or any related topic until you actually attend a World War Two reenactment, speak to a wartime veteran in attendance, and get his or her opinion of what we are doing. Until then, you are voicing a completedly uneducated opinion and are unable to inteligently discuss this topic.
You said: “I do not believe it is possible to “honor” warriors. only warriors can honor themselves, and the warriors I’ve met would say the same thing. they’ll usually reluctanly answer questions, but they do so in the interest of historical accuracy, and nothing more.”
I completely rest my case. You have absolutely no experience in this area. You have no knowledge or experience whatsoever of effective teaching methods. You have no understanding of history (despite your ridiculous claims to to the contrary — oh, and I am King of the Planet Mars).
You have obviously never spoken to any military veteran or active combat soldier (”warrior”? what a poorly chosen word), or — if I am to judge from your final statement as well as from your earlier stated opinions — you did so in an insultingly abrasive manner that offended them from talking to you. I have spoken with and interviewed many scores of military veterans, and have never (ever) experienced the relunctance which you claim that they all have. I can cite innumerable references that completely prove your statements wrong, but there is no point: I know you are wrong and anyone (other than yourself) can see that you are wrong. So, I am done with you.
You don’t know who I know, or what they have shared with me. Ask Iott if he’s ever “gutted” someone. Ask Iott what it looks like when a human being comes into contact with a .50 round? better yet, ask anyone who was in lower Manhattan on 9/11 what they think of the smell of aviation fuel, or the sound of bodies hitting pavement after a 100 story descent? no sir, I have never experienced combat. I have never killed another man with a knife, gun, or airstrike. as such, I would NEVER profess to “honor” or speak on behalf of those who have (regardless of the uniform they were wearing at the time).
‘Bye! Try to be happy. But you might be able to do so by reading some books.
I’ve read over 200. Here’s 10:
About Face – Col. David Hackworth
The Price of Glory – Allastair Horne
Warrior Dreams – James William Gibson
The New American Militarism – Andrew Bacevich
Jarhead – Anthony Swafford
Dear America: Letters from Vietnam
Dispatches – Michael Herr
Flags of Our Fathers – James Bradley
Blackhawk Down – Mark Bowden
Born on the 4th of July – Ron Kovic
Pete
October 10th, 2010
4:50 pm
To Paleo-neo-Carlinist @ 4:10 pm:
Nope. Sorry. Not a single thing you stated in your reply is accurate, and I can refute every bit of it. I can specifically answer every single question you ask (including your admissions to espousing Nazi doctrines and ideologies) — but so can anyone else who reads back through what you have posted here — so that would be an additional waste of my time, especially since I am sure you would spout more inaccuracies that I could refute with facts… and so on.
So it ends here.
As far as your alleged “Veteran friend,” I simply don’t believe you (along with your other untruths). You tried to apply this (again, alleged) single person’s out-of-context attitude to counter hundreds of real opinions from people I have ACTUALLY met. So, once again, you speak from ignorance. I could provide hundreds of personal testimonials from veterans who activitly engage in military reenactments, but you could do the same if you ever went to an event. Which you seem utterly unwilling to do, so it does not matter.
Unlike you, however, I will continue to vote for policies that will allow you to speak your mind and opinions, even thoiugh you censure those who serve our country through military service.
You wrote: “were this guy John Kerry or Max Cleland (decorated combat veterans) you’d be “swiftboating” him.”
Wow. You are just throwing crap out there, hoping it sticks, aren’t you? Just like Jay Bookman’s ill-researched article (at least you brought it full circle!).
You swrote: “I don’t want you to “understand” me because you could not possibly hope to understand me.”
Small-minded bigots are always impossible to understand, if you are not one already — so you are correct: I will never fully understand you. But it is you who has actually shown your true colors. A closeted Anti-Semitic uneducated blowhard standing ready to sabotage the American government any chance he gets. No, I got it. I don’t have to understand you to know what kind of a person you are. If you were to sit in a room of 200 random people, I could pick you out in 15 minutes. Sadly, I know your race, your religion, your ethic backgroupnd, your accent and what state you live in. And I would never seek to understand you.
So… it ends here. Done.
paleo-neo-Carlinist
October 10th, 2010
4:51 pm
SoCo and josef, and obviously, I have my qualms about lots of stuff, but this guys is like one step removed from the dude in NE (CT or MA) who claimed to be a Vietnam vet, then remembered he wasn’t.
Pete
October 10th, 2010
4:58 pm
You wrote: “three times a week I jog through Oakland Cemetery.”
CALLED IT! See? told you guys! ha ha ha! I even had the correct city — can you believe it? Pay up.
Sorry — I was really done, but a couple of friends following this discussion online lost a bet over this, and I need to rub it in. Did I call it, or what?
paleo-neo-Carlinist
October 10th, 2010
5:09 pm
“so it ends here, done.” is that like Mission Accomplished?
Nope. Sorry. Not a single thing you stated in your reply is accurate, and I can refute every bit of it. -
there is nothing to refute. I think it’s a given that you could not possibly confirm or disprove the veracity or accuracy of conversations I have had over the past 20 years. geez.
I can specifically answer every single question you ask (including your admissions to espousing Nazi doctrines and ideologies) —
knock yourself out, but this time I am really leaving, and I won’t be back until around 11:00 PM.
but so can anyone else who reads back through what you have posted here — so that would be an additional waste of my time, especially since I am sure you would spout more inaccuracies that I could refute with facts… and so on.
OK, agreed.
So it ends here.
As far as your alleged “Veteran friend,” I simply don’t believe you (along with your other untruths).
my friend is not an alleged veteran. I think you need to accept that neither is your friend Iott an “alleged” member of a group that “honors” the Waffen SS.
You tried to apply this (again, alleged) single person’s out-of-context attitude to counter hundreds of real opinions from people I have ACTUALLY met.
again, I will not editorialize. I suppose my friend could have been fabricating stories of his experiences overseas, just as former acquaintences who “allegedly” served in Vietnam could have fabricated their stories. rememeber the Ranger I referred to? he said it best,. “over 1,000,000, men and women passed through SE Asia from 1965 – 1975 and every one has a different story, and most of ‘em are true.”
So, once again, you speak from ignorance. I could provide hundreds of personal testimonials from veterans who activitly engage in military reenactments, but you could do the same if you ever went to an event. Which you seem utterly unwilling to do, so it does not matter.
This is where we part company, I have no interest in securing the “testimonials” of the combat veterans I know. their decision to share intimate details of their experiences; the good and the bad is all I need.
Unlike you, however, I will continue to vote for policies that will allow you to speak your mind and opinions, even thoiugh you censure those who serve our country through military service.
whatever.
You wrote: “were this guy John Kerry or Max Cleland (decorated combat veterans) you’d be “swiftboating” him.”
Wow. You are just throwing crap out there, hoping it sticks, aren’t you? Just like Jay Bookman’s ill-researched article (at least you brought it full circle!).
again, you’ll want to lock the door before you drop your pants to “honor” American (and Nazi) combat vets.
You swrote: “I don’t want you to “understand” me because you could not possibly hope to understand me.”
Small-minded bigots are always impossible to understand, if you are not one already — so you are correct: I will never fully understand you. But it is you who has actually shown your true colors. A closeted Anti-Semitic uneducated blowhard standing ready to sabotage the American government any chance he gets. No, I got it. I don’t have to understand you to know what kind of a person you are. If you were to sit in a room of 200 random people, I could pick you out in 15 minutes. Sadly, I know your race, your religion, your ethic backgroupnd, your accent and what state you live in. And I would never seek to understand you.
again, I am not interested in your ability to identify subversives, bigots, or anti-Americans from a group of 200. you got to the dance late, skippy, Joe McCarthy died 50 years ago.
paleo-neo-Carlinist
October 10th, 2010
5:10 pm
Pete, do you know where Oakland Cemetery is located?
Southern Comfort
October 10th, 2010
5:12 pm
paleo
I think this guy is a case of not thinking about the implication of his actions or associations. For me, this is no different than what the right said about Obama’s relationship to Rezko. It’s guilt by association because we will never know the true intent or feelings behind the decisions made to begin those associations in the first place. Without that context, we can only go by what we see, and that will differ based on our individual biases.
josef nix
October 10th, 2010
5:14 pm
My question, and I will pose it to Pete if he is still about and will answer, is the group in question prepared to reenact the Hegyeshalom Death March?
paleo-neo-Carlinist
October 10th, 2010
5:21 pm
SoCo, I disagree and obviously, I think there is more to the story than “disremembering” the Waffen SS or their participation in the deaths of millions of Europeans (and a number of American G.I.s). this isn’t some case of a dubious ipso facto connect the dots witch hunt. have you seen the the video? they use words (and as JB notes, Teutonic lettering and martial music). It would be like saying Al Capone was a criminal, but at least he lived by a code. I referred to the Godfather francise. I am Italian-American. I acknowledge the mafia exists, but I find nothing honrorable about its existance. This guy is like the fools who watch the Soprano’s and think “Tony is OK”. he’s a sociopath. do you see the guys in the photo smiling? yeah, when I want to yuck it up with my friends, we dress up like storm troopers. as I said, Robert Byrd may have been an example of “not thinking” when he attached himself to the KKK, but it’s not like he “defended” his decision, and continued to “reenact” KKK activities as part of some “historical” exercise.
RW-(the original)
October 10th, 2010
5:32 pm
josef,
I would imagine that any reenactment group would be somewhat limited to the number of roles their actors would be able to play, but over on their web site they tell you what they primarily do.
Kamchak
October 10th, 2010
5:34 pm
Did I call it, or what?
Ummm…no.
getalife
October 10th, 2010
5:36 pm
The gop are being asked about this n a z i jr. so the story has legs.
josef nix
October 10th, 2010
5:39 pm
RW
I went there. My question stands, Are they prepared to reenact it? If they are, then I’ll be glad to take the time out and reenact Szabo Laszlo.
RW-(the original)
October 10th, 2010
5:49 pm
My question stands
josef,
Well then you probably need to pose it to them.
josef nix
October 10th, 2010
5:50 pm
RW
I did. To Pete.
RW-(the original)
October 10th, 2010
5:51 pm
josef,
I don’t think Pete said he was with that group.
getalife
October 10th, 2010
5:54 pm
Did they pay up Pete?
RW-(the original)
October 10th, 2010
5:54 pm
The gop are being asked about this n a z i jr. so the story has legs.
getalife,
That’s the only reason this orchestrated smear campaign by the leftists started when it did. You can count on one every Friday from now until the elections so that Republicans get asked about nonsense like this on the Sunday shows and the Democrats don’t have to defend their record.
AmVet
October 10th, 2010
5:57 pm
From some Ohioans:
“Can you imagine someone defending dressing up as a Nazi, a member of a division that is responsible for millions of deaths of Hungarian Jews and East European Jews?” he said. “He ought to apologize, he ought to be ashamed of himself.”
Steve Fought, a representative of Miss Kaptur, said the Wiking Web site appears to “honor” the Panzer division even as it disavows any Nazi ideologies in a written disclaimer.
“The Waffen SS was found to be a criminal organization at the Nuremberg war trials. There was nothing honorable, and it’s a bad idea to honor them,” he said. “It’s a bad idea to regard them as anything but state-sponsored terrorists. … at a minimum, it calls into question his judgment.”
Neither the candidate nor his campaign said there was any reason to offer an apology.
Vets weigh in
Saturday, a handful of war veterans sipped beers in the wood-paneled American Legion Post 2510 in East Toledo. They questioned Mr. Iott’s decision to be part of a Nazi war re-enactment unit.
“I was born in an air raid, a Nazi air raid,” said Barry Bridgland, 66, of Toledo. The post’s canteen manager, he served in the British military and moved to the United States in 2001.
“My late father didn’t forgive the Germans for World War I until about 1961 and World War II a lot later,” he said. “We have all seen what happened with the Nazis. How the hell they can even want to highlight these people, I don’t know.”
Al Burrow, 79, of Toledo served in the Marines during the Korean War.
Seated at the legion bar, he said Mr. Iott has the right to express himself, but added that his Nazi role-playing makes him unfit for public office.
“I don’t care what it is, even if it’s garbage collector,” Mr. Burrow said.
Howard “Shorty” Braddock, 79, of Toledo, sporting an Army 24th Infantry cap and using a walker to get around the room, said re-enactments mislead people about the horror of war.
“I was in Korea from January, 1950, to January, 1951 – a long, cold year,” he said. “I grew up during World War II and I seen a lot of stuff on TV and on the movie screen, and I didn’t know a whole lot about war until I hit Korea. And I’ll tell you what – I didn’t like what I seen, and I still don’t.”
The Holocaust
Two Holocaust survivors questioned Mr. Iott’s judgment and his motivation for wearing a Nazi uniform.
Philip Markowicz, 86, of Sylvania survived the horrors of the Auschwitz, Flossenburg, Metzbach Tail, and Regensburg concentration camps. He said he suspects that Mr. Iott’s decision to portray a Nazi reveals something about the candidate’s political beliefs.
“He sympathized with the side of the Fascist movement, otherwise he wouldn’t do it,” Mr. Markowicz said. “He chose that side – not the Allies who were fighting against the Nazis. And I feel that the far right, like the Tea Party, is bordering a little bit on Fascism.
“It’s no secret that a lot of Americans were fascinated with the Fascist movement and felt that this is the future of the world,” he said.
“The idea is not dead yet. You have to be careful to recognize it.”
William Leons, 75, a retired University of Toledo professor who taught cultural anthropology, said it is an unhealthy hobby.
“I think the whole thing, the Nazi re-enactment thing, wearing the uniforms, is a little bit sick. But I’m a big fan of free speech and free expression,” he said. “They have the right to do it, but I would wonder a bit what their motives are.”
Mr. Leons of Holland, Ohio, was 5 when Nazi war planes bombed his family’s house in Rotterdam in the Netherlands.
His father died in a German concentration camp in Austria and his mother survived “harrowing experiences” in a Nazi camp in southern Holland.
Mr. Leons spent more than a year hiding in the attic of a sympathetic neighbor and was reunited with his mother after British and Canadian forces liberated the concentration camp when the war ended.
“I think Nazi war re-enactment is a form of expression and people often express themselves in controversial, sick ways. But I don’t think any court should bar it,” he said.
josef nix
October 10th, 2010
5:58 pm
RW
See Pete’s 1:06. That, and the fact that he is (was) still about are the reasons I addressed it to him. Were Democrat Reenactor or steve still here, I would have addressed it to either/both of them.
getalife
October 10th, 2010
5:59 pm
RW,
I think they call it silly season.
dems are on the offense.
RW-(the original)
October 10th, 2010
6:05 pm
josef,
From Pete’s 1:06
I happen to know Rich Iott personally, because one of my hobbies is to portray an historically-accurate WWII Soviet frontovik and we participate in some of the same events, although on opposite sides of the battlefield.
I take that to mean they are in different groups.
josef nix
October 10th, 2010
6:08 pm
RW
So do I. I did not say that he was a member of that particular group, but he does have contact with them and does know Iott personally. Of those posting, he was, to me, the most qualified to answer my question.
Senorita Bontia
October 10th, 2010
6:09 pm
Conservatives are not necessarily stupid,
but most stupid people are conservatives.
John Stuart Mill
English economist & philosopher (1806 – 1873)
RW-(the original)
October 10th, 2010
6:13 pm
josef,
I thought your question was whether the Wiking group was doing that particular reenactment. One of Jay’s three examples of conservative blogs that supposedly support naziss or some such has a huge list of reenactor groups so you might find it there.
@@
October 10th, 2010
6:15 pm
Alls I know is the CPUSA (Communist Party U.S.A.) hangs out with progressives/leftists/democrats.
Last I read, the CPUSA was at Sharpton’s “One Nation Working Together” rally.
Say what you will about today’s CPUSA, but they were so extreme during their heyday that they not only defended the mass murderer Stalin but the Hitler-Stalin Pact. Nobody, except Democrats, can claim ignorance about the CPUSA at this late date in its history. But there they were at the “One Nation Working Together” rally. There can be no doubt that they were an official part of the progressive big tent.
@@
October 10th, 2010
6:16 pm
Oops! ^^^ World Tribune.
josef nix
October 10th, 2010
6:19 pm
RW
It was whether the Wiking group is prepared to do it. If we were discussing Colin Powell’s comment that the Buffalo Soldiers are the “wind beneath my wings” I would be posing the same question. It’s the same question I pose to the Civil War reenactors, are they prepared to reenact Ft. Pillow or Sand Creek?