Recasting Bush as the hero of Iraq is taking things much too far
I see that Fox News and top Republicans such as Mitch McConnell are insisting that President Obama credit his predecessor, President George W. Bush, for making possible tonight’s announcement that U.S. troops are no longer engaged in combat in Iraq.
I suppose that’s true, they have a point. You could certainly argue, for example, that if Bush hadn’t committed us to that misbegotten war in the first place, President Obama wouldn’t be making tonight’s speech.
In fact, if Bush hadn’t decided to try to occupy Iraq with far fewer troops than were necessary, ignoring advice from top generals that several hundred thousand soldiers would be needed to do the job right, we might have been able to bring our role to a conclusion years ago instead of now. So they’re right in that sense as well.
And if Bush had understood the nature of the conflict much earlier — if he hadn’t stood in front of that “Mission Accomplished” banner on May 1, 2003 and proclaimed that major combat had ended in Iraq, at a point when just 172 U.S. soldiers had been killed out of an eventual 4,000 — yeah, maybe Obama wouldn’t have to be announcing the ACTUAL end of major combat for U.S. forces on an August night more than seven years later.
If Bush hadn’t stubbornly, blindly insisted year after year that the war was going well, that there was no civil war, that the incompetent Donald Rumsfeld was a great defense secretary, that no change of strategy was necessary because the original strategy was so brilliant — if he hadn’t refused to acknowledge reality until after the 2006 midterms forced him to do so — yeah, maybe Bush himself would have been able to make this speech while he was still president.
But that didn’t happen. For years, Bush tried to halfway it, refusing to commit fully but refusing to withdraw either.
“Some Americans ask me, if completing the mission is so important, why don’t you send more troops?” Bush said in a typical speech in 2005. “If our commanders on the ground say we need more troops, I will send them. But our commanders tell me they have the number of troops they need to do their job. Sending more Americans would undermine our strategy of encouraging Iraqis to take the lead in this fight.”
Look, I’m not trying to dredge up ancient disputes here, and I’m not looking for another chance to bash the ex-president. He has left office, and history will now reach its own verdict on his leadership and judgment. I’m fine with that. I will also acknowledge, as I have in the past, that the 2007 surge and the change in military leadership that Bush finally implemented were more successful in rebuilding security than I and many others, including Barack Obama, had expected at the time. As I also noted earlier today, Obama doesn’t deserve a huge amount of credit for this withdrawal process, because he has merely followed the timeline set by Bush.
For that and many other reasons, it was perfectly appropriate for Obama to call Bush today as a matter of courtesy, and I hope and expect that the president will treat his predecessor with grace in tonight’s remarks.
All that said, however, it is also impossible to sit silently by while the Republicans try to rewrite a history that remains so fresh in so many minds. The invasion of Iraq was not a triumph of the Bush years, it was his greatest single mistake and probably the single greatest foreign-policy blunder in U.S. history.
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446 comments Add your comment
The Leg Lamp is a "major award", much like Cynthia Tucker's Pulitzer and Obama's Nobel
September 1st, 2010
8:43 am
AmVet
September 1st, 2010
8:39 am
Gee, AmVet, and all this time I thought you were a conspiracy kook who trashed anything political 1 degree or more from the far left. I stand corrected and apologive for selling you short. You’re just pissed at everything. The BCS? And what great conspiracy are they involved in?
jm
September 1st, 2010
8:43 am
Doggone, this is a ridiculous statement and I hope you know it:
“The USSR, Canada, England, France, Israel all have WMDs. Why haven’t we invaded them? Iraq was no bigger threat to us than they are.”
4 of 5 are allies. 1 we fought a war with for 50 years, fortunately no shots were fired.
G.W.
September 1st, 2010
8:44 am
What branch did Obama serve in again?
The same one as me, the Executive.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award", much like Cynthia Tucker's Pulitzer and Obama's Nobel
September 1st, 2010
8:44 am
USinUK
September 1st, 2010
8:43 am
Still refering back to the Dan Rather “scoop”?
Doggone/GA
September 1st, 2010
8:44 am
“Then he passes a bill that puts off coverage for all Americans for about 5 years.”
Would it have been better if no bill had passed at all?
Normal
September 1st, 2010
8:45 am
jm
September 1st, 2010
8:38 am
jm,
Those 50,000 troops could end up being an Iraqi “Alamo”. Sacrificial lambs left for slaughter by invading Iranian armed forces. Do you think that we could get help to them in time? No, but what a political windfall it would be and what a clarion call to resume the fight, but this time with no restrictions.
Sound far fetched? You decide…I’m just supposin’
Peadawg
September 1st, 2010
8:45 am
yeah. a guy who blew out his cushy texas reserve slot because he couldn’t keep his nose clean. oh, yeah … that’s “brave”
You didn’t answer my question. Which branch did Obama serve in?
USinUK
September 1st, 2010
8:46 am
leg lamp – “Still refering back to the Dan Rather “scoop”?”
no one disputes what the letter said … no one.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award", much like Cynthia Tucker's Pulitzer and Obama's Nobel
September 1st, 2010
8:46 am
Doggone/GA
September 1st, 2010
8:44 am
In a word, yes!
USinUK
September 1st, 2010
8:46 am
“Which branch did Obama serve in?”
born in 1961, he hasn’t had to.
but nice try, pea-diddly
jm
September 1st, 2010
8:47 am
Normal – yes, I think we can defend our troops there or there’s no chance the military would be leaving them there. We have a few things Iran doesn’t. A real navy and air force. And lots and lots of nearby bases.
Peadawg
September 1st, 2010
8:47 am
“Would it have been better if no bill had passed at all?”
It would have been better if they had read the bill and knew what the hell was in it before they passed it..that’s for sure…instead of passing it to see what’s in it. It looks more and more like they passed the bill to make private insurance sooo bad that eventually we will beg for the public option.
Doggone/GA
September 1st, 2010
8:47 am
“Doggone, this is a ridiculous statement and I hope you know it:”
Of course it was, it was meant to be. Iraq was NO MORE A DANGER TO US than any of those other countries. If invading Iraq because of supposed WMDs was the right thing to do…they why haven’t we ALSO invaded them?
Answer: invading them would not be the right thing to do and invading Iraq was not right either.
G.W.
September 1st, 2010
8:47 am
Cheney served in my branch too. We’re both executive material.
jm
September 1st, 2010
8:48 am
Well Peadawg – the only answer is the legislative branch…. otherwise known as the “bring home the bacon” branch.
jt
September 1st, 2010
8:48 am
Along with Chicken-Hawk Bush, Harvard-Lawyer Obama, Jay Bookman, and the rest of the State-sponsered MSM,
I will pretend that all combat troops are out of Iraq………………………………………IF……………..
the State will allow me to pretend to pay taxes.
Swede Atlanta
September 1st, 2010
8:48 am
As some have pointed out here the tide began to turn in Iraq when two things happened:
(1) Surge – we sent in additional troops which should have been there from the beginning and had been requested by the generals on the ground only to be overruled by Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld
(2) U.S. began to work with tribal warlords (paying them, providing arms and other assistance) so that Iraqis were turning on Iraqi insurgents.
Obama should have given credit to the men and women of our Armed Forces – those that have returned and those that will never return and the American taxpayer. But giving credit to a man who began a war of choice that cost over 4,000 American lives and billions and billions of dollars that were never included in the annual budget is ridiculous.
Peadawg
September 1st, 2010
8:48 am
“he hasn’t had to.”
Thanks for proving my point. Bush is more of a hero than Obama.
Doggone/GA
September 1st, 2010
8:49 am
“It would have been better if they had read the bill ”
When you start your argument with a lie…it makes the rest pointless to read. So I didn’t.
G.W.
September 1st, 2010
8:50 am
It looks more and more like they passed the bill to make private insurance sooo bad that eventually we will beg for the public option.
Well there is certainly no Medicare Advantage to that. I wouldn’t sign such a bill without proof of at least 30 million votes.
Normal
September 1st, 2010
8:51 am
Paul,
Here you go…
Normal, (changed the name to protect the “innocent”)
Tonight marks the end of the American combat mission in Iraq.
As a candidate for this office, I pledged to end this war responsibly. And, as President, that is what I am doing.
Since I became Commander-in-Chief, we’ve brought home nearly 100,000 U.S. troops. We’ve closed or turned over to Iraq hundreds of our bases.
As Operation Iraqi Freedom ends, our commitment to a sovereign, stable, and self-reliant Iraq continues. Under Operation New Dawn, a transitional force of U.S. troops will remain to advise and assist Iraqi forces, protect our civilians on the ground, and pursue targeted counterterrorism efforts.
By the end of next year, consistent with our agreement with the Iraqi government, these men and women, too, will come home.
Ending this war is not only in Iraq’s interest — it is in our own. Our nation has paid a huge price to put Iraq’s future in the hands of its people. We have sent our men and women in uniform to make enormous sacrifices. We have spent vast resources abroad in the face of several years of recession at home.
We have met our responsibility through the courage and resolve of our women and men in uniform.
In seven years, they confronted a mission as challenging and as complex as any our military has ever been asked to face.
Nearly 1.5 million Americans put their lives on the line. Many returned for multiple tours of duty, far from their loved ones who bore a heroic burden of their own. And most painfully, more than 4,400 Americans have given their lives, fighting for people they never knew, for values that have defined our people for more than two centuries.
What their country asked of them was not small. And what they sacrificed was not easy.
For that, each and every American owes them our heartfelt thanks.
Our promise to them — to each woman or man who has donned our colors — is that our country will serve them as faithfully as they have served us. We have already made the largest increase in funding for veterans in decades. So long as I am President, I will do whatever it takes to fulfill that sacred trust.
Tonight, we mark a milestone in our nation’s history. Even at a time of great uncertainty for so many Americans, this day and our brave troops remind us that our future is in our own hands and that our best days lie ahead.
Thank you,
President Barack Obama
larry
September 1st, 2010
8:52 am
Thanks for proving my point. Bush is more of a hero than Obama.
LMAO !!!!!!!!!!
jm
September 1st, 2010
8:52 am
Doggone – I don’t think we’ll find middle ground here. I don’t like nukes. But if you think either
A – we should invade allies and democracies with nukes OR
B – we should never go to war with a declared enemy with the intent and ability to cause harm to the US
then I’m sure we won’t agree. Cause I sure as hell don’t believe either A or B.
B in particular is why 9/11 happened. Lesson learned. Ergo, Iraq invasion.
No WMD’s, big big oops. Somewhat more pacifist President elected, ergo no bombs dropped on Iran’s nuclear facilities – yet anyway.
AmVet
September 1st, 2010
8:53 am
Gee Beav, as usual you completely miss the point. (Do you hear that whizzing sound just above your head?) Imagine that?!
The lunatic fringe is acting as if they are some sort of electoral juggernaut. A steamroller of winning elections. So naively confident, that they are counting their chickens before they even hatch.
Yet the irrefutable fact is that they have gotten absolutely *decimated* recently. Horrific and historic losses on a scale never before seen in this country. A smackdown of staggering proportions. The Bush legacy. Though he is some sort of “hero” to the far right wing. (Air sickness bag needed here.)
Ergo, the assertion that the neo-cons can’t keep score at all. And thus the UGA analogy.
Clear?
Clear.
USinUK
September 1st, 2010
8:53 am
“otherwise known as the “bring home the bacon” branch.”
peadiddy – “Thanks for proving my point. Bush is more of a hero than Obama.” ah. no. he got his daddy to pull strings so that he didn’t see a warzone … you can call that many things, but “brave” isn’t one of them.
Doggone/GA
September 1st, 2010
8:55 am
“B in particular is why 9/11 happened. Lesson learned. Ergo, Iraq invasion”
When did Iraq invade us or attack us in any way? Invading Iraq because of some, mostly, Saudi Arabian extremists was about as useful as it would have been if we’d invaded Jamaica.
Iraq did not attack us. Iraq was not involved in the 911 attack. Iraq was NO DANGER to use whatsoever. We invaded based on lies and from the death of the first person after that invasion we stand convicted as murderers.
G.W.
September 1st, 2010
8:56 am
I attended Beck’s rally. I was hoping that maybe he could help me find some honor but all he offered was a lame sermon.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award", much like Cynthia Tucker's Pulitzer and Obama's Nobel
September 1st, 2010
8:56 am
USinUK
September 1st, 2010
8:46 am
You mean these letters? No one disputed them?
The Killian documents were initially claimed by CBS to have come from the “personal files” of the late Lt. Col. Jerry B. Killian, Bush’s squadron commander during Bush’s Air National Guard service. They describe preferential treatment during Bush’s service, including pressure on Killian to “sugar coat” an annual officer rating report for the then 1st Lt. Bush. CBS aired the story amid more releases of Bush’s official records by the Department of Defense, including one just the day before as the result of a FOIA lawsuit by the Associated Press. The Killian documents were alleged to be fakes, starting with a Free Republic web posting by Harry MacDougald, a conservative Republican lawyer posting under the blogger name, “Buckhead.” MacDougald and multiple fellow bloggers pointed out that the formatting shown in the documents used proportional fonts that did not come into common use until the mid to late 90’s and alleged that the documents were therefore likely forgeries.
The forgery allegations subsequently came to the attention of the mainstream media, especially after experts also questioned the documents’ authenticity and lack of a chain of custody. The original documents have never been submitted for authentication. The man who delivered the copies, Lt. Col. Bill Burkett, a former officer in the Texas Army National Guard and outspoken Bush critic, claimed that he burned the originals. Burkett admitted lying to CBS and USA Today about where he had obtained the papers and eventually expressed doubts of his own about their authenticity.
larry
September 1st, 2010
8:57 am
They are still looking for your hero in the Alabama National Guard.
@@
September 1st, 2010
8:58 am
I didn’t watch Obama’s address. I was too busy watching paint dry.
paleo-neo-Carlinist said:
I’m tired of you neo-con apologist, revisionist historians behaving like children.
…” so, I have created the kids’ table and I will not allow children to foul or dishonor the healthy give and take of the adult table. ergo, if I have to excuse myself from the grown-up table in order to put Dusty or Grand Forks or I’m here from the government… in his/her place, I am happy to do so,…
^^^ There’s that familiar ring!
DING DONG!!!!!!!!!
The Leg Lamp is a "major award", much like Cynthia Tucker's Pulitzer and Obama's Nobel
September 1st, 2010
8:58 am
AmVet
September 1st, 2010
8:53 am
Yep, it’s clear. You ARE pissed at everything. What a life….
jm
September 1st, 2010
8:59 am
Here’s our biggest foreign policy problem, if anyone wants to get into foreign policy. It ain’t Iraq. It’s China.
If our economic interests with a communist state are not reasonably settled (and I don’t think they can be given the mercantilist and non- free market approach the Chinese take), we are looking at a very disruptive world relationship.
Furthermore, China is building a military to rival ours. Make no mistake, the Chinese haven’t fought a war in a very long time, the have a restless population (in particular if they have a bad recession), and may not perceive the costs of war the same as we do.
They have 1.3 billion people, who are generally considered cheap and treated by the state authorities as tools, not as people. Our military is concerned. America in general is asleep to this threat though. It is a dangerous assumption to make that China sees the costs of a war the same as we do. I hope I don’t live to see this happen, but given my age, it’s entirely possible, even likely.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award", much like Cynthia Tucker's Pulitzer and Obama's Nobel
September 1st, 2010
9:00 am
larry
September 1st, 2010
8:57 am
On October 1, 1973, Bush was honorably discharged from the Texas Air National Guard and transferred to the inactive reserves in Denver, Colorado. He was discharged from the Air Force Reserve on November 21, 1974 thus completing his service to the guard.
Peadawg
September 1st, 2010
9:01 am
“When you start your argument with a lie…it makes the rest pointless to read.”
When Pelosi says, “We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it.”. That implies they didn’t read it. If they had, they would have known what’s in it.
jm
September 1st, 2010
9:02 am
Doggone – perhaps you’re not aware of the much maligned assassination attempt on a previous President. Or the real previous attempts to have WMD’s, but fortunately thwarted by the IAEA in the last round. Or the fact the guy gassed tens of thousands of his own people.
Saddam and his minions were awful people. Iraq was a US enemy. I’m glad he’s gone. I’m not excited about the human or financial cost. But I’m glad it happened.
USinUK
September 1st, 2010
9:02 am
leg lamp – actually, the toads at PowerLine were the ones who started KerningGate about the documents – the thing that threw up the biggest question about the documents’ authenticity. (funny enough, they questioned it immediately after the story aired – in which the documents were on air for only a couple of seconds … but I’m SURE that there were no dirty tricks going on)
Killian’s secretary said that she had no recollection of typing the documents for him – BUT said that she knew that the information contained in them were an accurate reflection of his opinion.
AmVet
September 1st, 2010
9:03 am
Not to worry, Lamper.
Even if that meaningless assertion were true, I’m not becoming obsessed with someone I don’t even know.
But keep on leg-humping, no mater what your name of the month is. We both know you can’t stop…
The Leg Lamp is a "major award", much like Cynthia Tucker's Pulitzer and Obama's Nobel
September 1st, 2010
9:03 am
Obama: ‘time to turn page’
We will in November.
Peadawg
September 1st, 2010
9:03 am
““Thanks for proving my point. Bush is more of a hero than Obama.” ah. no. he got his daddy to pull strings so that he didn’t see a warzone … you can call that many things, but “brave” isn’t one of them.”
I never mentioned brave. I said hero. Anyone that enters the military in any capacity any way is a hero to me. I don’t know about you, but I appreciate what they do.
Paul
September 1st, 2010
9:05 am
Doggone/GA
“The USSR, Canada, England, France, Israel all have WMDs. ”
Someone posted something similar the other day. May want to check on Canada. As far as the others – it’s the nuke component, not chemical or biologicals.
Goldie! Hi!
The Leg Lamp is a "major award", much like Cynthia Tucker's Pulitzer and Obama's Nobel
September 1st, 2010
9:05 am
USinUK
September 1st, 2010
9:02 am
I’ll repeat “Burkett admitted lying to CBS and USA Today about where he had obtained the papers and eventually expressed doubts of his own about their authenticity.”
But according to you, no one questioned it. No one.
larry
September 1st, 2010
9:05 am
However, in May 1972 he sought and gained approval to move to Alabama to work on the U.S. Senate campaign of Republican Party candidate, Winton Blount. While in Alabama Bush was obliged to continue his duties with another National Guard unit. After failing to have an annual physical examination Bush was removed from flight duty on August 1, 1972.
Bush’s military records reveal that he did not do any duty between April 16 and October 28, 1972 and missed training altogether in December 1972 and February and March 1973. There were no records of him having served with any unit in Alabama. It is a requirement of members of the National Guard that they accumulate a minimum of 50 service points in a year. (Each full day of weekend training is worth two points).
On May 2, 1973 one of Bush’s superiors noted that “Lt. Bush has not been observed at this unit during the period of report. A civilian occupation made it necessary for him to move to Montgomery, Alabama. He cleared this base on 15 May 1972 and has been performing equivalent training in a non-flying status with the 187th Tac Recon Gp, Dannelly ANG Base, Alabama.” However, no records for service in Alabama exist.[2]
Like i said , Leg of Lamp, they are still looking for your hero in Alabama.
They are more likely to find Forrest Gump than your hero.
AmVet
September 1st, 2010
9:05 am
Bush’s military record is not much different from his civilian record.
A long series of spectacularly unremarkable performances, with the occasional dismal failure…
USinUK
September 1st, 2010
9:05 am
“When Pelosi says, “We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it.”. That implies they didn’t read it. If they had, they would have known what’s in it.”
ooooo … you win points for style and grace in taking a quote out of context!!
she wasn’t talking about the people in Congress not reading the bill – she was talking about all the misinformation being spread around to the general public about what’s in the bill –
““But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy.”
http://www.speaker.gov/newsroom/pressreleases?id=1576
nice try.
epic flail
The Leg Lamp is a "major award", much like Cynthia Tucker's Pulitzer and Obama's Nobel
September 1st, 2010
9:06 am
USinUK
September 1st, 2010
9:02 am
CBS and Dan Rather initially defended the documents and the report, but on September 20, 2004 – less than two weeks before Election Day, CBS News stated that it had been “misled” and that it could not authenticate the documents and should not have used them.
But according to you, no one questioned it. No one.
USinUK
September 1st, 2010
9:06 am
legs – no one questions WHAT WAS IN THE DOCUMENTS. like I said – even Killian’s secretary said the contents were accurate, just that she couldn’t recall typing them for him.
Peadawg
September 1st, 2010
9:07 am
USinUK, you sugar coat it your way, I’ll sugar coat it my way. Deal?
Doggone/GA
September 1st, 2010
9:07 am
“When Pelosi says, “We have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it.”. That implies they didn’t read it.”
I refer you to the dictionary to learn the difference between the words “you” and “we”
And as with most things, it does help if you provide the ENTIRE quote: ““But we have to pass the bill so that you can find out what is in it, away from the fog of the controversy.”
http://www.speaker.gov/newsroom/pressreleases?id=1576
The Leg Lamp is a "major award", much like Cynthia Tucker's Pulitzer and Obama's Nobel
September 1st, 2010
9:08 am
larry
September 1st, 2010
9:05 am
Wrong person. I didn’t call him a hero. However, he did serve and he was honorably discharged. If Alabama is still looking for him I advise them to go west about three states. Last I heard he was still there.
USinUK
September 1st, 2010
9:09 am
and as for your 9:06 – a good journalist and a good producer lost their jobs and their reputations for airing a document that contained the truth …
you do know what they say, don’t you – the best lie is the one close to the truth.
Peadawg
September 1st, 2010
9:09 am
Doggone, USinUK, why couldn’t Obama and Pelosi communicate what was in it? It seems like they didn’t even know…that’s why we didn’t know.
I'm Here From The Government And I'm Here To Help
September 1st, 2010
9:09 am
An estimated 87,000 attend Glen Beck’s rally in D.C.; a volcano erupts after four centuries of inactivity and Paris Hilton’s new mug shot. Betty Nguyen has these stories and more on this week’s episode of “The Feed.”
PROOF CBS can’t count. Try 300,000 plus!
USinUK
September 1st, 2010
9:10 am
“USinUK, you sugar coat it your way, I’ll sugar coat it my way. Deal?”
ahm. no. you’re not entitled to your own facts.
it’s not what she said.
it’s not what she meant.
Goldie
September 1st, 2010
9:10 am
We can also thank W and his pals for unleashing Iran onto the “democracy” that they spread in the Middle East. The whole world will be thanking W for that!
And hey back, uber-Paul!
I'm Here From The Government And I'm Here To Help
September 1st, 2010
9:10 am
With the U.S. Department of Justice’s approval, Georgia now has one of the toughest voter verification and ID systems in the country.
Thank God!
Pennsylvanian
September 1st, 2010
9:11 am
Gee, nothing from JB or CT today on President Obama’s less than stellar speech last night. The White House talking points memo must be late.
Doggone/GA
September 1st, 2010
9:12 am
“Doggone – perhaps you’re not aware of the much maligned assassination attempt on a previous President”
Ok, so they tried to kill Daddy Bush in 1993, so it’s OK to invade them 8 YEARS later for something they DIDN’T do? Do I have that right? And it’s OK to kill more than 100,000 innocent Iraqi civilians and nearly 5000 American solidiers just to get revenge?
Not in MY book it isn’t OK.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award", much like Cynthia Tucker's Pulitzer and Obama's Nobel
September 1st, 2010
9:12 am
USinUK
September 1st, 2010
9:09 am
“airing a document that contained the truth …”
I’ll repeat for the third and last time, “Burkett admitted lying to CBS and USA Today about where he had obtained the papers and eventually expressed doubts of his own about their authenticity.”
If that meets your definition of “truth” then have at it. Yet according to you, no one questioned it. No one. But people lost their jobs and reputations because of it? How did that happen if no one questioned it. No one.
Nice Guy
September 1st, 2010
9:13 am
“Look, I’m not trying to dredge up ancient disputes here, and I’m not looking for another chance to bash the ex-president.”
Really, Jay, REALLY!? Wow, I couldn’t tell since you wrote unfavorably about Bush in the first SEVEN paragraphs. Ugh, so predictable. I don’t give Bush a pass on this, but don’t talk/write stuff thinking we are fools.
AmVet
September 1st, 2010
9:13 am
Peadawg, I mean this with no disrespect, but if you have never served, or have any direct sustained experience with military personnel, you have no clue about these supposed “heroes”.
Your broad-brushed respect though romanticized and well-intentioned is not realistic.
There are countless non-heroes in uniform. Many never were at any point in their lives., Not before, during or after their service. One of the latest being Maj. Nidal Malik Hasan, US Army
Pennsylvanian
September 1st, 2010
9:14 am
Off topic #1 – Paul Krugman appears to be exiting the plantation. “This is not a recovery.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/27/opinion/27krugman.html?_r=1&ref=columnists
RW-(the original)
September 1st, 2010
9:15 am
But everyone here knows that I do not throw the first punch in these set-tos. Ever.
Sometimes you have to read several comments before getting your morning fill of BS. Those two sentences would cover a month.
Later y’all
Peadawg
September 1st, 2010
9:15 am
““Look, I’m not trying to dredge up ancient disputes here, and I’m not looking for another chance to bash the ex-president.””
And than bashes Bush the rest of the column. That’s like starting a sentence, “I’m not racist, but….”
The Leg Lamp is a "major award", much like Cynthia Tucker's Pulitzer and Obama's Nobel
September 1st, 2010
9:15 am
USinUK
September 1st, 2010
9:06 am
Wow, how convenient and what a memory she has. So the content was accurate (at least according to her) but she didn’t remember typing it? muuuwwwwaaAAAAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! That’s almost as good as “I didn’t have sex with that women, Miss Lewinsky”…..
larry
September 1st, 2010
9:15 am
My apologies leg lamp.
This was p-dawgs hero .
With hero’s like him, who need emenies.
I'm Here From The Government And I'm Here To Help
September 1st, 2010
9:15 am
Why are we running from a terrorist State?
WASHINGTON, Aug. 30, 2010 – Iraqi security forces today arrested two suspected al-Qaida in Iraq criminal associates during joint security operations conducted in east Mosul, Iraq.
Iraqi forces and U.S. advisors searched several buildings for a suspected al-Qaida in Iraq leader allegedly responsible for extorting money from oil-related contractors and oil transportation workers in order to fund terrorist operations against Iraq’s security forces and the Iraqi public.
jm
September 1st, 2010
9:16 am
Nice guy – I do think Jay was trying to point out some relevant facts. Namely, that Bush could’ve “taken credit” himself for the conclusion of the war if it had never happened (now wouldn’t that be odd) or if he had listened to the military and fought with the appropriate troop levels earlier.
Of course, this is a bit of imaginary revisionist history. Had we sent 200,000 troops immediately, who is to know whether it would have, or would not have still gone on as long as it did.
People should be looking forward right now, not backward. That’s a big problem….
USinUK
September 1st, 2010
9:16 am
“How did that happen if no one questioned it”
to satisfy the dogs that howled for their blood because they DARED question Bush!
no one questioned THE CONTENTS – the origin, yes, the contents, no.
Paul
September 1st, 2010
9:17 am
Doggone/GA
“Then he passes a bill that puts off coverage for all Americans for about 5 years.”
Would it have been better if no bill had passed at all?”
My somewhat obtuse point was it’d been better if coverage began immediately, if the objective was to save lives.
Course, the other objective was to show what happens when one introduces one policy initiative as a way of criticizing another policy –
Normal 8:51
Thank you.
You got an advance, draft outline of his speech. Neat.
@@
“so, I have created the kids’ table,,,the adult table. …the grown-up table in order to put Dusty or Grand Forks or I’m here from the government… in his/her place, I am happy to do so,…
^^^ There’s that familiar ring!
DING DONG!!!!!!!!!”
@@, I think that’s just borrowing a phrase. No way is paleo-neo anywhere close to that stalker I had a couple of Fridays ago.
Doggone/GA
September 1st, 2010
9:18 am
“Had we sent 200,000 troops immediately, who is to know whether it would have, or would not have still gone on as long as it did. ”
And if we had not been stupid enough to invade in the first place we wouldn’t even need to have this conversation.
jm
September 1st, 2010
9:18 am
Pennylvanian – Krugman is a complete and utter idiot. Just one that happens to have a nobel prize.
stands for decibels
September 1st, 2010
9:19 am
a guy who blew out his cushy texas reserve slot because he couldn’t keep his nose clean. oh, yeah … that’s “brave”
Somewhere, the ghost of Dwight Eisenhower is weeping at the realization that 50 years after his speech, we are still so subservient to the military industrial complex that we don’t consider those who seek elected office, often at personal and financial sacrifice to themselves and their families, to have “served” our nation.
/drive by
The Leg Lamp is a "major award", much like Cynthia Tucker's Pulitzer and Obama's Nobel
September 1st, 2010
9:20 am
USinUK
September 1st, 2010
9:16 am
You’re still wrong.
AmVet
September 1st, 2010
9:20 am
As part of our coverage of Glenn Beck’s “Restoring Honor” rally Saturday, CBS News commissioned the company AirPhotosLive.com to offer an independent estimate of how many people showed up for the event. AirPhotosLive.com calculated that there were approximately 87,000 people there, plus or minus 9,000 people. It was the only scientific estimate made of the number of people at the rally.
The estimate generated criticism from conservative bloggers as well as from Beck himself, who suggested the rally attracted at least 500,000 people.
And the Minnesota loon kept up her longstanding record of saying the most idiotic things by claiming there were a million people there.
Like I said, cons can’t count.
Otherwise, where is the corroboration for their absurd estimates?
Chirp, chirp…
RW-(the original)
September 1st, 2010
9:20 am
My apologies amvet, your comment is a rare distant second once we get to this page and find people arguing that “fake but accurate” is a fine media standard. Any other day you might have won.
To the forest and no more looking back!!!
The Leg Lamp is a "major award", much like Cynthia Tucker's Pulitzer and Obama's Nobel
September 1st, 2010
9:20 am
jm
September 1st, 2010
9:18 am
Are you refering to Krugman or Obama?
Normal
September 1st, 2010
9:22 am
Pennsylvanian
September 1st, 2010
9:14 am
Penn…
Great article, makes sense to this old bird too. Thanks for sharing.
jm
September 1st, 2010
9:22 am
Doggone – “wouldn’t even need to have this conversation” – yes.
But instead we’d be having a different one.
Remember the topics? What’s happening to the millions of starving Iraqis because of the sanctions? does Saddam still have WMD’s? who will take over when he’s gone? another bad or worse minion? how many kurds are being killed and gassed?
Or, it could be worse. In the intervening years, saddam might have invaded S.A. (where will we get our rotten oil?), he could’ve nuked Israel starting a giant middle east war if we had backed off sanctions.
You’re right, we wouldn’t be having this conversation, we would still be having a bad one and we might be having a far worse one.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award", much like Cynthia Tucker's Pulitzer and Obama's Nobel
September 1st, 2010
9:23 am
larry
September 1st, 2010
9:15 am
I wasn’t a huge W fan, but in two presidential elections I found him to be the lesser of two evils.
Nice Guy
September 1st, 2010
9:23 am
jm @ 9:16
I understand you point. But I don’t appreciate Jay tearin’ into Bush and then say, “but, hey, I’m not trying to tear into him or anything.” That’s exactly what he’s trying to do and he just couldn’t wait for this day to come because it gave him a reason to criticize Bush, yet again. Pretty weak.
As far as what Bush “could have done,” yeah, he could have done things differently.
jm
September 1st, 2010
9:23 am
Leg Lamp – Krugman. Obama comes in a distant second probably.
jm
September 1st, 2010
9:24 am
Nice Guy – and I understand your point as well. Fair enough.
USinUK
September 1st, 2010
9:25 am
leg – 9:20 – and you’re still in denial if you don’t acknowledge that he didn’t go to his physical for 2 years.
Nice Guy
September 1st, 2010
9:26 am
AmVet – Like I said, cons can’t count.
Fine, but then Libs can’t see. That whole Pelosi and crew being spat upon thing. Never happened. Completely made up.
Doggone/GA
September 1st, 2010
9:26 am
“What’s happening to the millions of starving Iraqis because of the sanctions? ”
So now we invaded them to save them from the sanctions WE imposed on them?
And just to continue this theatre of the absurd, but I’m really serious about this: I’m on record as being against ANY sanctions against ANY country. I think we should do exactly the opposite of sanctions…flood those countries with consumer goods so the people there can SEE what is really out there in the world. And then if THEIR government won’t allow them to have those goods, they will KNOW EXACTLY who to blame…and it won’t be US.
Paul
September 1st, 2010
9:26 am
USinUK
CBS gave up under pressure and refused to print a story that cast Bush in a bad light?
I can give a lot of theories the benefit of the doubt, but this is a bit much.
I know I sound like I’m on replay, but there seems to be an awful lot of revisionist history by people who lived through it, or ignorance by people who didn’t, of what it was like during Vietnam.
- Poor schmucks with no opportunities got drafted.
- To avoid combat and the draft, people at risk of being drafted joined the Air Force or the Navy.
- Those with means went to college and got a deferment.
- Others who wanted to avoid combat went into the National Guard (hardly any Guard units went to VietNam. When they did, and someone got killed, it was big news). Those with family connections got the plum jobs in the Guard.
So enough about the “he avoided combat by going in the Guard” nonsense, okay? The entire objective of most nearly every young man during Vietnam was to avoid the draft first, and second, to avoid any military service that involved combat!!!
jm
September 1st, 2010
9:28 am
Jay could have written: “Bush deserves credit for the surge and not letting the war end up in the loss column. They made a massive misjudgment on some of the intel on the front end and probably understaffed the war initially. Obama to his credit has wound things down as planned. History will decide if it was ultimately the right decision in the first place and whether it was a success or not.”
The Leg Lamp is a "major award", much like Cynthia Tucker's Pulitzer and Obama's Nobel
September 1st, 2010
9:28 am
USinUK
September 1st, 2010
9:25 am
Oh, okay, so your entire argument is based on him not going for a physical for 2 years. Done. I tend not to speculate but you seem to be willing to do so. So what do you “speculate” that means? Since we’re going for facts here, and not speculation, let me offer this fact (again)
“On October 1, 1973, Bush was honorably discharged from the Texas Air National Guard and transferred to the inactive reserves in Denver, Colorado. He was discharged from the Air Force Reserve on November 21, 1974 thus completing his service to the guard.
Steve
September 1st, 2010
9:29 am
The invasion of Iraq was not a triumph of the Bush years, it was his greatest single mistake and probably the single greatest foreign-policy blunder in U.S. history.
Only time will tell the answer to those statements Jay
Doggone/GA
September 1st, 2010
9:30 am
Paul – I refer you to Peadawg’s taunts about Obama serving so you’ll understand why Bush’s service still is brought up. The “hero of TANG” doesn’t exist, but as long as he is portrayed as such, it WILL be criticized.
Paul
September 1st, 2010
9:30 am
@@
That “So enough about the “he avoided combat by going in the Guard” nonsense, okay? ” wasn’t directed at you. By that time I’d segued into a general address – sorry it wasn’t clear.
jm
September 1st, 2010
9:30 am
Doggone – your philosophy is being tried in China. To possibly disasterous effect. We’ll see. That’s like funding your enemy, generally a non-sensical strategy.
Sanctions are better than nothing. They work only about 1/4 as well as some like to think though. The alternative is worse, however.
The Leg Lamp is a "major award", much like Cynthia Tucker's Pulitzer and Obama's Nobel
September 1st, 2010
9:32 am
Here’s where we need to redirect our military:
“Sheriff: ‘Mexican drug cartels control parts of Arizona’… “
Doggone/GA
September 1st, 2010
9:33 am
“Doggone – your philosophy is being tried in China”
We’re flooding China with consuemer goods? That’s news to me. And here all this time I thought one of our economic troubles had to do with the huge disparity in how much WE get from THEM, as compared to how little they get from us. Guess I learned something new. Have you told the economists yet?
G.W.
September 1st, 2010
9:34 am
Beck claims 500,000 in attendance while aerial photography analysis shows 87,000. Proof positive that Beck is a Republican because he knows all about deficits and that they don’t matter. All that matters is the sales pitch. At least that is what they taught me in school, when I was paying attention because of the teacher’s yelling during one of my multitudes of hangovers.
jm
September 1st, 2010
9:35 am
Doggone, Worse – we’re just sending them money instead. Trade cuts both ways. You can’t generally ship goods to a country but not buy them. Although China has set the game up in its favor pretty well.
Every “made in china” product you buy is funding their military and the sale of our US Treasury bonds to them.
lovelyliz
September 1st, 2010
9:35 am
Can you be surprised given that the GOP tried to cast Bush as a military veteran who valiantly defended Texas and Alabama from the Vietnamese?
The Last Boy Scout
September 1st, 2010
9:36 am
The invasion of Iraq was not a triumph of the Bush years, it was his greatest single mistake and probably the single greatest foreign-policy blunder in U.S. history……..VERY WELL SAID Jay
Paul
September 1st, 2010
9:36 am
Doggone/GA
Thank. I think “hero” is a bit much. He was just another guy caught up in the maelstrom of Vietnam.
Leg Humper
One thing I’ve always wondered about – IF all that stuff about Bush was true, there shoulda been a whole lot of military officers who signed off on his paperwork should have been charged with dereliction of duty, making false official statements, and a whole bunch of other court-martial offenses.
But they weren’t.
So either they did nothing wrong, or Bush was no exception to the policies put in place and accepted as the day-to-day way the military looked at things -
Paul
September 1st, 2010
9:37 am
Leg Lamp
Sorry. Didn’t intentionally use AmVet’s nickname for you – it’s just burrowed into my subconscious…