Wilson, Bowers good choices to probe school testing scandal
Gov. Sonny Perdue chose wisely and well.
Bob Wilson and Michael Bowers, appointed last week by Perdue to lead an investigation into cheating scandals in public schools in Atlanta and Dougherty County, are experienced prosecutors. Perhaps more importantly in this context, they have also proved to be persons of good judgment, capable of sifting truth from fiction and the important from the inconsequential in what promises to be a complicated probe.
So far, previous investigations have been able to document only that cheating occurred. Armed with subpoena authority and the resources to investigate fully, Bowers and Wilson may be able to dig deeper, getting at the important questions of how the cheating happened and why.
But it’s unfortunate it had to come to this. The appointment of Wilson and Bowers is necessary because for at least the second time in this scandal, local leaders have proved more interested in protecting their institutions and their reputations than in getting at the truth. Their defensiveness and reluctance to look too closely have ended up compounding the very damage that they seek to avoid.
Here in Atlanta, Superintendent Beverly Hall and others vigorously dispute such assertion, arguing that they have responded as quickly and as aggressively as the facts allow.
In several important regards, that is undeniably true.
In Atlanta, testing security has been strengthened considerably in the wake of the scandal, and principals of the dozen schools implicated most strongly in the cheating scandal have been reassigned to other duties. Their names and those of almost 100 other school employees have also been submitted to the state for possible disciplinary action.
As Hall told the AJC last week, she has no patience with those who cheat. Any educators who altered test results “have done a terrible disservice to the children and Atlanta Public Schools, and that is a disgrace,” she said.
Certainly, the individuals who cheated or tolerated cheating by others deserve to be identified and punished. It is also true that, based on the limited evidence then available, APS officials could not have moved more aggressively against suspected staff members without compromising their right to due process and fair treatment.
However, individual responsibility represents just one aspect of the problem. As her statement above suggests, Hall has been steadfast in trying to depict the scandal as a simple series of moral failings by the individuals involved. People of integrity, she has said repeatedly, would not have cheated under any circumstances.
Hall has also pointed out repeatedly — and accurately — that there is no evidence of a broad, organized conspiracy. But that does not exhaust the range of issues that this scandal has brought to the surface.
Among the questions that Bowers and Wilson will try to answer is whether the problem was indeed limited to a dozen schools, as APS officials claim, or whether it was more widespread, as state officials suggest. Even if the lesser number proves accurate, we are left with the reality that widespread cheating occurred in a dozen schools involving more than 100 APS employees, a far more extensive problem than in any other system in the state.
Why?
That’s the question that Hall refuses to even entertain.
Personally, I can think of only two explanations: Either APS hired employees who are more prone than others to cheat, or it placed its employees in an environment in which cheating was deemed acceptable or even necessary. Either way, responsibility for creating such problems would lie at the top of the chain of command.
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251 comments Add your comment
stands for decibels
August 24th, 2010
7:38 am
Either APS hired employees who are more prone than others to cheat, or it placed its employees in an environment in which cheating was deemed acceptable or even necessary.
Monty, I’ll take Door #2.
Normal
August 24th, 2010
7:39 am
How does this keep those pesky “Moozlin’s” out of “Amurica”?
Get with it Jay, “We don’t need no education, we don’t need no mind control…”
Isn’t that the Tea Drinkers theme song?
USinUK
August 24th, 2010
7:40 am
good gawd … Michael Bowers??? he of the 2 failed gubernatorial campaigns? I’d have a lot more respect for him if he didn’t come out with “It’s illegal but there currently isn’t a law against it” during the great slush-fund brouhaha in the early 1990s. that kind of language coming out of the state AG doesn’t really foster much confidence.
popeye
August 24th, 2010
7:44 am
The name Bowers, and the word cheating are synonymous!
USinUK
August 24th, 2010
7:45 am
Normal – “Isn’t that the Tea Drinkers theme song?”
for your consideration:
don’t know much about history …
don’t know much biology …
don’t know much about science book ….
don’t know much about the french I took …
Mick
August 24th, 2010
7:48 am
The days of testing are not unlike going to war, they both bring on collateral damage. I have nothing against fair testing as long as the test is reliable and valid. There currently is only one testing company that can claim that mantle which is SAT out of princeton. The other testing companies are for profit and make changes every year, rendering the lot of them unreliable and invalid. The collateral damage are the careers tied to test scores and the needless suffering of many students.
Normal
August 24th, 2010
7:49 am
USinUK,
You Win!
Granny Godzilla
August 24th, 2010
7:49 am
Atlanta is not alone.
If I had been caught cheating – after Sr. M. Thomasina kicked my butt, she would have handed me over to my folks for a second round.
jt
August 24th, 2010
7:50 am
Jay, and others, remind me of that French police chief in Casablanca. ..Shocked!
Why, ? It’s all about money. If you lose a child because of “failing to improve”, you lose the money.
This cheating came straight from the top. wink wink.
Furthermore, if anyone looked into Detroit, Oakland, Brookland, Chicago etc……………..they would be “shocked” too.
Finn McCool
August 24th, 2010
7:51 am
Be interesting to see what gets turned up.
USinUK
August 24th, 2010
7:55 am
jt – 7:50 – I totally agree with you – when funding is based on performance, is anyone surprised that there is then evidence of cheating?
Finn McCool
August 24th, 2010
7:58 am
Off topic but…
Great show by Jon Stewart last night. He shows the Fox News people doing the “follow the money” on who is funding the Imam and the Islamic cultural center in NYC.
Stewart points out that the Fox News people never mention the evil culprit’s name.
Then Stewart does his own “follow the money” and it turns out the evil culprit is a middle eastern guy who is also the 2nd largest shareholder in NewsCorp – owners of Fox News. The show then postulates the obvious – either Fox News personnel are really really stupid or they are evil geniuses.
Catch it if you can.
SOUTHERN ATL
August 24th, 2010
7:58 am
Welcome back Jay…..If the educators were given the opportunity to teach the subject matters instead of teaching the test, this scandal probably would not be occurring right now!
L Ron Hubbub
August 24th, 2010
7:58 am
I would say that we need some state level ethics investigating commission, perhaps headed by some prominent state leaders or something like that but… .
USinUK
August 24th, 2010
8:00 am
Finn – “The show then postulates the obvious – either Fox News personnel are really really stupid or they are evil geniuses.”
evil savants.
but they’re excellent drivers. excellent drivers.
5 minutes to Wapner!
stands for decibels
August 24th, 2010
8:02 am
good gawd … Michael Bowers?
His better half is awesome, however.
jt
August 24th, 2010
8:04 am
USinUK
Even more tragic,
Mssrs. Bowers and Wilson will make a boatload of money.
Whenever the federalies get involved with ANYTHING, that thing quickly regresses into the lowest comman money-grubbing bottom-feeding letigating leech-like denominator.
I’m out.
barking frog
August 24th, 2010
8:04 am
Probably going to find that the students cheated and need
remedial counseling in ethics which will require new hires
and a building or two.
Normal
August 24th, 2010
8:04 am
USinUK,
But, to be fair and balanced, I think I see their reasoning(?)…
don’t know much about history … ‘cept what Fox News tells me is true…
don’t know much biology … ‘cept how to make babies, but just say no…
don’t know much about science book … All the science I need is in Genisus…
don’t know much about the french I took … ‘Cept for kissin’ and freedom freies
Peadawg
August 24th, 2010
8:04 am
Get rid of these useless standardized tests. There, problem solved. Easy, huh?
Paul
August 24th, 2010
8:08 am
Good step one on the investigators and the investigation. Once it’s written – who has the responsibilty to act? Or not act?
“or it placed its employees in an environment in which cheating was deemed acceptable or even necessary” because cheating gained…. what? Personal gain?
Finn McCool 7:58
So unlike the Atlanta School System, what Stewart’s saying is the news opinion portion of Fox pursues a line of inquiry, even if it embarrasses those at the top with money and power?
Saul Good
August 24th, 2010
8:11 am
I still don’t see how ANY of this is going to end up pulling GA from the BOTTOM of the barrel with regards to test scores. While this does need to be looked at with a fine tooth comb…what STILL needs to be done is something to make our state “competitive”… I mean how is it that we’re consistently at the bottom with regards to SAT scores? It’s bad enough how ALL kids in the US now compare to the rest of the world in science, math, etc… but if we’re at the very bottom consistently… there’s still something very very broken in the state when it comes to producing GOOD students and getting RESULTS one can measure.
USinUK
August 24th, 2010
8:11 am
dB – 8:02 –
yay, BETTY!
Peadiddy – but … but … but … then how else can we criticize the teachers???
Normal – 8:04 – (golf clap) … well played, sir!
AmVet
August 24th, 2010
8:12 am
From downstairs.
RW, not sure what connection Nader’s percentage of votes has to do with this mosqueteered hullabaloo. Cong. Paul made some damning statements about neo-cons. I happened to agree with his assessments. (Oh and way to jinx that no-no!)
Bruno, I pretty much loved everything off of that In the Dark LP. Thanks.
USinUK, I think I remember you saying you don’t do youtube at work, but for everyone else and especially for you later, Sam Cooke’s Wonderful World…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jNO72aCnVr0
Atlanta us both an enigma and a microcosm of modern day America. Arguably she is the epicenter of civil rights and the ascension of justice vis a vis black power.
But so many of those opportunities have gone south (get it?) like this cheating debacle…
Saul Good
August 24th, 2010
8:14 am
Normal… is French Toast “Freedom Toast” as well? Or is it just “banned” at most FINE breakfast establishments catering to the Tea and Crumpet crowd (who btw…have never heard of or seen a crumpet…most of all because they’ve ever ventured out of the states).
Answer man.
August 24th, 2010
8:15 am
I don’t even like being in the same state with Michael Bowers. He’s the epitome of low life trash on a grand scale.
Disgusted
August 24th, 2010
8:15 am
I have nothing against fair testing as long as the test is reliable and valid. There currently is only one testing company that can claim that mantle which is SAT out of princeton.
So a test that, by its administrators’ own written admission on the test’s enrollment form, predicts the likelihood of academic success in college correctly only 37% of the time is OK, but the others are bogus?
Interesting logic there.
ty webb
August 24th, 2010
8:15 am
ah yes…atlanta’s kids are being cheated(sorry for the pun)out of an education that properly prepares them for the future, and one “side” can only condemn “tea drinkers” and “fox news”. rah rah!
stands for decibels
August 24th, 2010
8:15 am
cheating gained…. what? Personal gain?
Under NCLB, it’s not so much what you gain by cheating, it’s what you don’t lose.
Peadawg
August 24th, 2010
8:16 am
“then how else can we criticize the teachers???”
How about….GASP….put more of the blame on the parents! What an idea!!!
Finn McCool
August 24th, 2010
8:16 am
barking frog, how do students, without help from teachers, cheat on standardized tests? As I recall, these tests come in to the classroom sealed and there is no way to put together cheat notes on them.
Since this problem surfaced I don’t think anyone has pointed a finger at the students and there is a reason for that. It’s kinda impossible to do.
Peadawg
August 24th, 2010
8:16 am
And let’s not forget, USinUK, that these test proves absolutely nothing.
USinUK
August 24th, 2010
8:17 am
AmVet – “USinUK, I think I remember you saying you don’t do youtube at work, but for everyone else and especially for you later, Sam Cooke’s Wonderful World…”
thanks … I’ve already given myself the earworm …
stands for decibels
August 24th, 2010
8:18 am
yay, BETTY!
For those who don’t know much about the science book, Betty has a curriculum.
AmVet
August 24th, 2010
8:19 am
I just read Bowers bio. Very impressive. However how is it that he graduated from West Point and then went immediately into the US Air Force? Anybody know the answer to this one?
USinUK
August 24th, 2010
8:19 am
dB – 8:15 – VERY well said.
Peadiddy – 8:16 – I agree – too many are not involved with their kids’ education – however, if you don’t have much of an education, yourself, how can you help your child with his/her homework? and, I agree, the tests don’t prove anything about critical thinking skills
Saul Good
August 24th, 2010
8:19 am
stands….too funny…I forgot all about Betty and her awesome site!
Peadawg
August 24th, 2010
8:22 am
” the tests don’t prove anything about critical thinking skills”
They don’t even prove that. All they prove is that you can take tests well. Just b/c you can memorize some things and take a test doesn’t prove you can apply it in the real world.
Curious Observer
August 24th, 2010
8:23 am
However how is it that he graduated from West Point and then went immediately into the US Air Force? Anybody know the answer to this one?
It’s my understanding that a graduate of any of the national military academies can choose his/her branch of service.
stands for decibels
August 24th, 2010
8:23 am
Without making me look it up, anyone in the know able to say just how much of a role standardized testing actually plays in whether children advance / schools are permitted to receive funding, as dictated by NCLB, in 2010?
I do know that when children do poorly on such a test in the elementary levels here in GA, they are provided opportunities to re-test, take summer school, etc. before being held back. But they do get held back based on the test scores alone, despite how well they may have done with the actual school year’s curriculum.
(I do not know how many actual “A” students fail the CRCT in GA every year, I imagine it’s not many, but there’ve got to be a few, right?)
Finn McCool
August 24th, 2010
8:24 am
If anyone is interested, the 4th season of The Wire centers around the futility of the No Child Left Behind fiasco.
Sad to think of all those days spent “teaching to the test” as opposed to actually learning. These kids will never get those school days back to really learn.
Gale
August 24th, 2010
8:24 am
Tests were intended to improve schools and teaching. Clearly, they are not succeeding. They should be scrapped. At the worst, we are no worse off that we were before. Good teachers can return to teaching and some students will benefit. We need a new initiative that motivates kids to want to learn. Now, all kids want to learn. What is it about school that seems to burn the curiosity out of them?
I agree with Peadawg (to my surprise). The biggest problem is parental involvement. Is it possible to motivate a child to learn, to maintain his curiosity, when the adults around him have given up on improving themselves?
godless heathen
August 24th, 2010
8:25 am
Oh goody, Finn and Normal have steered this thread into another mosque thread. Someone will post that the mosque is not a mosque and is not located at ground zero in 4,3,2,1 seconds.
Off topic. Did everyone get an eyeful of the new Miss Universe, Jimena Navarrete, representing Mexico? She can swim the river anytime she wants.
Paul
August 24th, 2010
8:28 am
sfb 8:15
“Under NCLB, it’s not so much what you gain by cheating, it’s what you don’t lose.”
If my memory is correct, when Pres Bush and Sen Kennedy did NCLB, the testing objectives covered a couple of subjects. To see if kids had basic competency. Pretty simple.
Then the government bureaucracy, inhabited in part by people who think “I know best” or “this is a really good idea” went to work
A gazillion regulations and standards and funding penalties and rewards later, here we are -
AmVet
August 24th, 2010
8:30 am
CO, thanks. So far this is all I have found on the matter: “…with few exceptions, West Point graduates serve in the Army and Naval Academy graduates serve in the Navy or Marine Corps. That is decided primarily by the service academy you select.”
I suppose that in 1963 given an option, he might NOT choose to be an officer in either the US Army or USMC, huh?
ty, in two days I’ve noted that you’ve made two substance-free posts here. Both WAY off-base and both ending with the words rah, rah!
http://tinyurl.com/2cbko6r
USinUK
August 24th, 2010
8:30 am
“Finn and Normal have steered this thread into another mosque thread” … no more than you have with your miss universe comment.
Peadawg
August 24th, 2010
8:31 am
“Off topic. Did everyone get an eyeful of the new Miss Universe, Jimena Navarrete, representing Mexico? She can swim the river anytime she wants.”
All those girls need a couple of cheeseburgers. I like my women w/ some curves…not a cups..
Curious Observer
August 24th, 2010
8:33 am
While I deplore cheating in any form, I can’t help laughing about the folly of administering one national test to every student for a subject. Given the fact that just about every state school system chooses its own textbooks, the idea that a single test not based on those textbooks can accurately measure a student’s learning in a subject is ludicrous. But let’s not focus on that. Rather, LOOK—THERE’S A SQUIRREL!
godless heathen
August 24th, 2010
8:34 am
““Finn and Normal have steered this thread into another mosque thread” … no more than you have with your miss universe comment.”
And six pages of Miss Universe threading just wrapped up early this AM?
Paul
August 24th, 2010
8:35 am
godless heathen
“Did everyone get an eyeful of the new Miss Universe, Jimena Navarrete, representing Mexico? ”
After Lie to Me I flipped over to the contest. They picked the Final 5 and I listened to Miss Mexico answer a question about if it’s a bad thing for parents to give kids unsupervised Net access and if bad effects occur. I listened to a milktoast answer and thought “she’s out.”
So much for answering questions and getting elected, eh?
Erudite Erasers
August 24th, 2010
8:36 am
OT: Anyone notice the new slogan for Wells Fargo: “Together we’ll go far”.
Perdue will discover that the cheating scandal is going to play like Watergate. The pressure came from above. Follow the advantage. What possible advantage would school districts have to encourage cheating? There’s your answer and there’s your depth, scope and Deepthroat.
We are a corrupt nation, reduced to salvaging survival through conspired compromise. Jury nullification gone amuck; we’ve become a jury that tampers with itself. It can only get worse as the consequences of the shamefully-discredited Bush Foreign Policy fuels our desperation again and again.
Remember we are Americans, and armed with a #2 pencil, we’re number one! (The trickle down theory proved that).
Our instructors are teaching cheating.
Mick
August 24th, 2010
8:36 am
peadawg
Your observations on testing have been nothing short of brilliant – have a good day..
godless heathen
August 24th, 2010
8:38 am
“(Aug. 23) — Forty years ago Tuesday, a van loaded with explosives rocked the University of Wisconsin-Madison campus, killing one person and wounding three others — all part of a protest against the war in Vietnam. It was also the biggest domestic terrorism attack until the Oklahoma City bombing 25 years later.
Three of four of the anti-war culprits were captured and served time in prison. But 40 years later, the hunt for the fourth suspect — Leo Burt, a student and aspiring journalist at the time — continues.”
Anybody checked the White House? He’s probably the czar of something.
L Ron Hubbub
August 24th, 2010
8:39 am
How much education does it take to know that you gotta win the lottery or sign a major contract for pro ball or hit it big on reality tv, etc., in order to make it, unless you were born into money. You don’t even need faith or hope to figure that one out. Just a little change.
USinUK
August 24th, 2010
8:39 am
“And six pages of Miss Universe threading just wrapped up early this AM?”
you mean the 6 pages of the previous topic about Cordoba House? that 6 pages?
L Ron Hubbub
August 24th, 2010
8:41 am
Anybody checked the White House? He’s probably the czar of something.
Obama fired him after he was elected.
Bruno
August 24th, 2010
8:43 am
My personal opinion is that the entire school curriculum needs to be reevaluated in relationship to “life skills”. Each of the individual academic disciplines feel that there’s is the most important, such that kids end up getting taught a bunch of stuff that they will never use in the real world. As much as I love advanced math, very, very few jobs require anything beyond arithmetic. In the end, it’s better to know a few things very well, than a bunch of things superficially.
Jack
August 24th, 2010
8:43 am
The Bowers & Wilson investigation may well result in some firings and relocating of personnel, but it won’t cure the real problem: The children involved in this cheating scandal are not taught at home how to be good students; to set goals for themselves regardless of the behavior of those around them.
paleo-neo-Carlinist
August 24th, 2010
8:43 am
AmVet, just a hunch, but maybe Bowers liked hot showers and a/c, and not c-rations and muddy rice paddies? technically it’s not draft dodging, but more like combat dodging (unless he joined the USAF to fly combat missions over enemy territory, in which case, disregard my hunch).
ty webb
August 24th, 2010
8:44 am
Amvet,
sorry, maybe if I use the word “neocon” my posts will possess more substance.
Redneck Convert (R---and proud of it)
August 24th, 2010
8:48 am
Well, I think Bowers is fine for the job. He went after people with the Death Penalty lots of times when he was in state office, and that’s what we need here. Too bad he lost a big one with the gay law and got his name in the history books there. We wouldn’t be having these problems with gay marriage if he’d of won there. Most of the gays would be in jail. I reckon you can’t win them all.
When us rednecks go after the teachers, we aim to get them. It’s their fault our kids are so barbell dumb. Except for being able to describe every race car engine and name every NASCAR driver and his number. Real chips off of the old block, them kids. Anyway, people that cheat us out of getting them need to be put in prison.
That’s all I got to say. Have a good day everybody.
USinUK
August 24th, 2010
8:48 am
Bruno – I disagree with you on math skills – while we may not need to know how to figure the area of a room very often, math teaches analytical thinking – how to break down a problem into parts.
Literature, history, science – there may not be an everyday application to them, but we, as a people, need to know these things – to have a common point of understanding, to know where we came from, to have the past illustrated. Reading Little Women gives you some insight into what homelife was like during the Civil War. Learning about World War I gives you a foundation for literature and art produced by the Lost Generation.
USinUK
August 24th, 2010
8:49 am
B-dog – btw, I asked you downstairs, but just in case you didn’t see it – did you get the gig? is everything finalized, now??
paleo-neo-Carlinist
August 24th, 2010
8:51 am
peadawg, I gotta agree with you on the value of standardized tests. they’re useless if the goal is to educate children. I thought it was the norm to tell children they are “special” and “unique” and “wonderful”? but the idea that we would present curriculum, evaluate a student’s ability to grasp and apply curriculum conflicts with the “cut corners” approach to both elementary/secondary education, and more importantly, the student application/selection process at the university level. this is one instance where comparing apples and oranges makes sense, especially when you consider there will be some bananas, grapes and of course, lemons in the mix. standardized tests are contrary to the concept of “diversity” but as I said, heaven forbid educators would have to educate, as opposed to teaching students how to master the CRCT or other standardized tests. the APS is no better or worse than any other bloated, ineffective, wasteful bureacracy. it is a jobs program for political patronage pay-offs and not a government agency dedicated to educating children and young adults. heck, the only reason public education exists, is to provide daycare for the working class.
godless heathen
August 24th, 2010
8:52 am
“you mean the 6 pages of the previous topic about Cordoba House? that 6 pages?”
Yup. My point being that some posters are having so much fun bashing the families of 911 victims, 911 responders, Fox News, etc., that they just can’t let it go. I think all that could be said about the subject was said many, many times. Personally I don’t have a dog in that fight so I could care less where the members of the peaceful religion of Islam meet.
“Homicide bomber and gunmen launch attack in Somalia’s capital, killing at least 32 people — including lawmakers — as Islamic militants declare ‘massive war on invaders.’”
Gale
August 24th, 2010
8:53 am
I am on board with Bruno. Kids are not motivated to learn things they see as not preparing them to rise above the society they see their parents in. And I still see a big part of the problem in parents that do not see learning as a way up out of the society they find themselves in. Parents involved in learning will help the kids. If the kids are learning something practical, the parent may become more involved.
Bruno
August 24th, 2010
8:54 am
“g’morning, B-dog … what’s the good news? did you get the gig?”
The decision is supposed to be made tomorrow. In the meantime, I fell asleep at the wheel yesterday and didn’t check in on the stock market while blogging. I lost my ass, and as you know, it was already puny to begin with. The pre-market trading is even worse this AM. Does anyone know wtf is going on??
“as far as whiner goes … “unarmed” doesn’t go far enough”
Are you sure that mmm, mmm, mmm is the same poster as IRYW?
Peadawg
August 24th, 2010
8:54 am
“Your observations on testing have been nothing short of brilliant – have a good day..”
Thanks.
Normal
August 24th, 2010
8:59 am
“as Islamic militants declare ‘massive war on invaders.’”
It’s media statements like this that fans the flames of fear. Those terrorists are no more Muslim than I am. The media needs to just say
“As Somalli militants”…Leave Islam out of it and call them what they really are…spineless thugs.
Peadawg
August 24th, 2010
9:00 am
Come on Jay, this is getting weird. Everyone’s agreeing with me. Put a new blog up!
USinUK
August 24th, 2010
9:03 am
“Yup. My point being that some posters are having so much fun bashing the families of 911 victims, 911 responders, Fox News, etc., that they just can’t let it go.”
one comment. one. hardly steering the thread off-course. unlike the Miss Universe diversion.
but, of course, you’re SO uninterested in it that you throw Somalia into the mix.
AmVet
August 24th, 2010
9:03 am
ty, no worries. And upon recollection, I’m not sure any of your posts have ever included any material substance. You know, quaint stuff like facts, appropriate quotes, sources and links…
Glad you appreciate that term though, apparently so does Congressman Paul and millions of other Americans. As the saying goes, If the foo sh*ts, wear it.
paleo and CO, it just struck me as odd, because I have never heard of it happening.
USinUK
August 24th, 2010
9:03 am
Peadiddy – we’re all as freaked out as you
AmVet
August 24th, 2010
9:05 am
Peadawg, I did not agree with you! Ms. Mexico is certainly not the unendowed young lady you averred. (grin)
Bosch
August 24th, 2010
9:05 am
“Get rid of these useless standardized tests. There, problem solved. Easy, huh?”
Yeah! Peadawg! Agreed!
Mrs. G! Please stay here with us, I don’t like you over there with the CT nuts. It’s not good for you.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
A better use of time should be to investigate WHY these administrators felt the need to cheat in the first place.
AmVet
August 24th, 2010
9:08 am
My point being that some posters are having so much fun bashing the families of 911 victims…
Excellent point, heathen.
“These broads are millionaires, lionized on TV and in articles about them, reveling in their status as celebrities and stalked by grief-arazzies. I have never seen people enjoying their husbands’ death so much.” ~Ann Coulter from her book Godless.
ty webb
August 24th, 2010
9:08 am
Amvet,
Thanks.
Bruno
August 24th, 2010
9:09 am
“Bruno – I disagree with you on math skills – while we may not need to know how to figure the area of a room very often, math teaches analytical thinking – how to break down a problem into parts. Literature, history, science – there may not be an everyday application to them, but we, as a people, need to know these things – to have a common point of understanding, to know where we came from, to have the past illustrated.”
Your analysis reminds me of the difficulty that our lawmakers are having figuring out where to cut the budget. Once the various departments are established, no one wants to give up their piece of the pie. Just my opinion, of course, but I feel like we need to start from scratch once again, and get back to the basics, with “life skills” being the benchmark for inclusion.
The reality is that learning has become fragmented, such that “dessert” is being placed on an equal basis with the “meat and potatoes”.
“If the kids are learning something practical, the parent may become more involved.”
Gale–I know that we discussed this issue a while back on the old W2W blog, and you and I had the same mindset. We shouldn’t assume that all learning takes place only in the classroom. I went to one of the easiest high schools in the country, but supplemented my learning at home. In the end, I learned more and had more fun that way then if I had gone to a high-pressure prep school.
Paul
August 24th, 2010
9:09 am
Normal 8:59
Description from The Washington Times of Central Command’s manual on this topic:
“The Petraeus counterinsurgency manual takes the position that, to understand the enemy, commanders must recognize terrorist links to Islam — its leaders in some cases, its fundraising and its infrastructure. Forces must fight “Islamic extremists,” it says, differently from the Viet Cong or followers of Saddam Hussein.
“Islamic extremists use perceived threats to their religion by outsiders to mobilize support for their insurgency and justify terrorist tactics,” the manual states.
In a section on the ideological source for Islamic terrorists, the doctrine says, “For many Muslims, the Caliphate produces a positive image of the golden age of Islamic civilization. This image mobilizes support for al Qaeda among some of the most traditional Muslims while concealing the details of the movement’s goal. In fact, al Qaeda’s leaders envision the ‘restored Caliphate’ as a totalitarian state similar to the pre-2002 Taliban regime in Afghanistan.”"
stands for decibels
August 24th, 2010
9:11 am
Come on Jay, this is getting weird. Everyone’s agreeing with me.
Well, while I agree with the spirit of your stance I’ll take some issue, because you were rather absolutist with your “Get rid of these useless standardized tests” business. Standardized testing isn’t completely useless; it just shouldn’t be the sole or even the most important indicator of success or failure. My issue with high-stakes standardized testing is the “high stakes” part. There are some perfectly capable kids who simply do not test well. (I knock wood knowing that my own kid actually does pretty well on that score—just the usual pre-test anxiety any normal kid would feel, nothing debilitating).
Also, there’s something I find a little crazy about allowing individual states to adopt whatever standardized test they wish. I figure, have the Dept. of Ed maintain one set of standardized tests used throughout the nation so that you can at least do like:like comparisons to see how states are doing based on this imperfect but somewhat useful metric.
also, this “how about the PARENTS” sounds right-wingy radioish. I mean duh, obviously a kid’s home environment plays a huge role (as do that kid’s peer group outside the home) But unless you’ve got a good way to require pre-procreation competency testing that doesn’t run afoul of our Constitution, it’s kind of irrelevant to the topic at hand.
Normal
August 24th, 2010
9:11 am
What was it called in my day? The three “R’s”…Reading ‘riting, and ‘rithmetic?
I’m not sure I’m a full proponent of Holland’s education system, in which all kids are aptitude tested around age 12 to plot their educational path. Then they will study only for what their aptitude says is best for them. But maybe a variation of that system could work in America, if given two or three simular choices or paths. The point is, I believe, that no two States have the same idea as to what education is.
We do need a standard country wide system of education. Then their will be no “what ifs”. We need the Arts and Humanities, as well as the Science and Math. Our educational system needs to be well rounded, and available for all. Our true future is well educated children ready to compete against the rest of the world.
logicial consequence
August 24th, 2010
9:11 am
The system that is most notorious for falsifying discipline data, and sweeping discipline problems under the rug is the system that had to resort to widespread cheating to maintain its “gains”.
Anybody see a correlation?
USinUK
August 24th, 2010
9:12 am
AmVet – 9:08 …. ooooo, SNAP!
USinUK
August 24th, 2010
9:17 am
“We need the Arts and Humanities, as well as the Science and Math”
I agree … and so do the folkses who study education. Studying music helps performance in all other areas of study.
we need to have a broader understanding of more than just “life skills” – it’s no coincidence that the founding fathers that we admire the most (jefferson, washington, etc) had extensive libraries that cover myriad subjects.
You want answers?
August 24th, 2010
9:17 am
You want answers? Subpoena the driver. If Beverly Hall has been doing as much work as she claims she’s been doing in the car to need a driver, then the driver should know what Beverly Hall knew, and when did she know it.
paleo-neo-Carlinist
August 24th, 2010
9:17 am
heathen, AmVet beat me to the punch. when are the neo-cons going to get some new material? it’s never political/financial self-interest, it is always some noble act in defense of; Muslim women, the 9/11 families, or first responders. and yet, as AmVet notes, Ann “neo-Con Barbie” Coulture has made her feelings known, the GOP is stalling on a bill that would aid ailing first responders, and do we really care about Mulsim women, or only the women who are stoned and beaten? seems like there are some Muslim women who might like a place of worship in lower Manhattan, no?
Normal
August 24th, 2010
9:19 am
Paul
August 24th, 2010
9:09 am
Paul, I have read that and I completely disagree with that assement.
By stating that, he is declaring war on ALL of Islam. exactly what the terrorists want. He is literally stepping into **it barefoot.
Islam needs to be put out of the equation and tell the Middle East People we are fighting terrorists who hide under the mantel of Islam but are not true Muslims. They are cowardly thugs and that’s all they are, or ever will be.
Granny Godzilla
August 24th, 2010
9:21 am
Bosch
Thanks….she’s shut down for vacation.
Jay seems to be a better at keeping the trolls under the bridge….
Peadawg
August 24th, 2010
9:21 am
” There are some perfectly capable kids who simply do not test well.”
That was me all through school..even college. But I could do the homework and projects just fine. Give me program and I’ll write the program. Ask me to take the Sun Java Certification test….ya….that went REAL well.
Peadawg
August 24th, 2010
9:22 am
Granny, do you capitalize your name hear and not on Cynthia’s? Or was ‘granny godzilla’ not you? I could never tell.
paleo-neo-Carlinist
August 24th, 2010
9:22 am
Paul, very interesting post. try this:
American neo-Conservative (Islamic) extremists use perceived threats to their nation (religion) by Muslim and Mexicans (outsiders) to mobilize support for their political agenda (insurgency) and justify amending/ignoring the 1st and 14th Amendments to the Constitution (terrorist tactics)”. Sounds to me like Newt, Palin, et al are taking a page from the Islamofacist Playbook.
Matti
August 24th, 2010
9:24 am
I’m thrilled that my offspring far surpass my abilities in the area of mathematics. This is one of the single greatest factors in my hope for the future. However, I have several “math whiz” friends who just aren’t that bright. Sure, they can do complex formulation in their heads and I can’t, but guess which ones are upside down in their mortgages or blew a fortune on a new interest to keep him hooked… NOT ME!
RW-(the original)
August 24th, 2010
9:25 am
Godless was an excellent book when you got past the tiny fraction of it that dealt with the Jersey girls. Then again we have developed a society that can’t read beyond the headlines. Truly sad and maybe that’s what leads to cheating scandals like the one referenced here.
Ah well, the forest beckons early. Stay thirsty my friends.
Later
Matti
August 24th, 2010
9:25 am
Er, … “love interest.” (Strings don’t work, y’all. There’s your daily tip from a math dummy.)
Curious Observer
August 24th, 2010
9:27 am
paleo and CO, it just struck me as odd, because I have never heard of it happening.
You must remember, AmVet, that the Air Force didn’t become a separate branch of service until 1947 (before that, it was the Army Air Corps) and that the Air Force Academy didn’t come into existence until 1959.
Intown
August 24th, 2010
9:28 am
As someone who has invested heavily in Atlanta by moving intown and planning to send my kids to APS schools (the only way a family can afford to live intown), this better get fixed NOW with as little collateral damage as possible.
AmVet
August 24th, 2010
9:29 am
“Then again we have developed a society that can’t
read beyond the headlinesunderstand that the hideous quote from that book is the perfect reply to a post about denigrating 9/11 families.”stands for decibels
August 24th, 2010
9:30 am
AmVet – 9:08 …. ooooo, SNAP!
Obviously, nobody downstairs (from what I could see) was actually “bashing 9/11 families, 911 first responders” as godless heathen so inartfully put it. If certain 9/11 families and 9/11 first responders are now taking unconstitutional stances against the enshrined, fought-for rights of religious liberty in America, they need to be criticized, just as anyone should be. But I’ve yet to see anyone sink to the level of accusing such folk as “enjoying their husbands’ deaths.”
(sorry for the off-topic drift, but I couldn’t let that “bashing” business stand.)
Granny Godzilla
August 24th, 2010
9:31 am
Peadawg
The name field remembers…..so capitol G’s here
Bruno
August 24th, 2010
9:33 am
” the tests don’t prove anything about critical thinking skills”
“They don’t even prove that. All they prove is that you can take tests well. Just b/c you can memorize some things and take a test doesn’t prove you can apply it in the real world.”
I think there is a fairly simple solution to this: change all testing to open book. Then testing will mirror “real life” a lot more closely and take the memorization factor out of it. Additionally, I believe it will reduce the anxiety factor that poor test takers face, and their scores will likely improve.
If any of you think this solution will “dumb it down”, I disagree. While at HMC, widely regarded as the most difficult science/math school in the world, a large percentage of my tests were open book. My profs were more interested in seeing what we could do with information rather than seeing how much we could memorize.
I know that this is primarily a social blog then a serious discussion blog, but I would really like to hear from everyone ideas of how to improve education. The youngest generation coming up aren’t impressing me at all. None of them appear to be able to make change from a dollar without looking at the register.
paleo-neo-Carlinist
August 24th, 2010
9:33 am
folks, public education is no different than public safety (police and fire), or any of the public services offered by local governments; it is not possible to protect every citizen agains crime, fire, etc. and yet politicians campaign on public safety platforms (courting the support of police and firefighter unions, as opposed to citizens). it is not possible to “educate” every child. Judge Schmales wasn’t much of a golfer, but he was correct when he told Danny; “…the world needs ditch diggers, too!”
AmVet
August 24th, 2010
9:33 am
stands, you know the routine. Why bother with factual, cogent and intellectually honest discourse when hyperbolic rhetoric is o much easier?
As for that book being “excellent” I’ll leave it up to others to run interference for that heinous, hate-filled hag.
CO, good points. Perhaps Bowers was in the initial graduating class and had some alternatives not afforded later graduates…
RW-(the original)
August 24th, 2010
9:34 am
the perfect reply
Always nice to see the level at which one believes they’ve achieved perfection, but that’s got to be one of the lowest bars I’ve ever seen someone set for themselves.
Now I really must go and please try to refrain from changing my words and then putting them in quotes. I swear you and Brunos are like Siamese twins.
jm
August 24th, 2010
9:37 am
Jay, I think you missed a key point. I’m not a huge fan of Hall, but I think she’s done a lot of good. It is also possible that because there was more emphasis, focus, and financial reward tied to testing scores, that the “higher pressure” environment led more teachers to cheat.
The solution obviously isn’t to back off the testing, but to ensure third party oversight of the testing. But I don’t think Hall is necessarily a culprit or even responsible except to the extent that she doesn’t root out the problem and punish those who cheated. On the first count, I think she has corrected the problem with testing. On the second she obviously gets a “C” or worse.
AmVet
August 24th, 2010
9:39 am
paleo,
Well said, and don’t forget another great quote about that paragon of jurisprudence, “Don’t sell yourself short, judge. You’re a heckuva slouch.”
A post about 9/11 families and then that quote. Yes, what an enormous stretch! I find it utterly misguided and silly to even take umbrage with it as na example.
And I can see why you make the comparison. Bruno, generally uses a plethora of facts, data, evidence, links and corroboratable (?) sources to bolster his position.
A position, that by definition, does not sit well with rhetoricians.
Besides as the Dude said, “This injustice cannot stand!”
jm
August 24th, 2010
9:39 am
Let me clarify: there may have been more emphasis on testing scores and financial compensation than any other school district in the state. I don’t know this for a fact. I’m speculating. But its possible.
It would be nice if Jay or someone else investigated this further. Obviously its clear that the teachers can’t be trusted to administer the tests, and thankfully this has been fixed.
Curious Observer
August 24th, 2010
9:39 am
“These challenges are real,” Biden told the [2010] graduates, who were about to accept their commissions as Navy ensigns and Marine Corps lieutenants, and in one case, as an Army officer. “But every generation has faced challenges. And just like those who came before you, you will prevail.”
While it’s rare for a cadet to cross service lines, it still happens, and the choice is still available.
paleo-neo-Carlinist
August 24th, 2010
9:41 am
RW, I guess the neo-con “excellence” bar is lower than I thought. don’t get me wrong, at 4:30 AM, after a night of drinking, a sack of Krystals and a 24 oz. Dr. Pepper is “excellent”. I guess, it truly is about context. Coulture is a pathetic one trick pony.
Saul Good
August 24th, 2010
9:41 am
“My profs were more interested in seeing what we could do with information rather than seeing how much we could memorize.”
I can agree with that to a degree. Yet there is a certain amount of knowledge that one must possess in order to “get to the next level”… as a musician…it’s pretty important that one understands the values of the notes, scales, chord structure, etc to be able to perform a piece of music. And on the other hand… there are always the “Brittney Spears” of the world….
Saul Good
August 24th, 2010
9:44 am
“Judge Schmales wasn’t much of a golfer, but he was correct when he told Danny; “…the world needs ditch diggers, too!”
Yup…but those ditch diggers need to know WHERE to dig the hole and at times…know where the underground water and power lines are BEFORE they dig that ditch!
Bruno
August 24th, 2010
9:45 am
“As someone who has invested heavily in Atlanta by moving intown and planning to send my kids to APS schools (the only way a family can afford to live intown), this better get fixed NOW with as little collateral damage as possible.”
Intowner–Your best hope is to move into josef nix’s school district. I just left a job on the southside, and had several APS teachers as clients. To a person, they were all dumb as dirt themselves.
Matti
August 24th, 2010
9:45 am
Bruno,
I would really like to hear from everyone ideas of how to improve education. The youngest generation coming up aren’t impressing me at all.
I know I’m biased, but I am personally acquainted with many astoundingly smart, engaged, conscientious young people who are embarking on their quest for higher education in some of America’s top schools. They’re certainly not the majority, but they do exist and give me reason to hope.
The reality is, the quality and success of a school is directly related to the level of parental and community involvement. Tax dollars barely cover the minimum (if you call less than what’s needed the minimum.) Show me a successful school and I’ll show you two or three dozen parents who bust their behinds fundraising for sports, computers, and all manner of “extra cirriculars” — which many think are unnecessary, but are exactly what keep children engaged and interested, an essential factor in academic success. The schools in economically challenged neighborhoods often suffer because (a) they don’t have as much money, and (b) parents are too busy scraping out a living to be bothered with the school, or (c) parents in the neighborhood have no concept of what’s possible, because nobody showed them when they were young.
Yes, yes, yes, math and science, but it’s the rare student who can’t wait to come to school for math class. Music, art, sports, and such that are often poo-poo’ed as indulgent do indeed engage and encouarge children to try, participate, and find some joy in their day. Life lessons matter, and are found outside of textbooks. One of those lessons is: don’t ignore the books! Further, from what I’ve seen, they could ALL do with a little more PE.
Bosch
August 24th, 2010
9:46 am
Bruno,
“but I would really like to hear from everyone ideas of how to improve education”
Unfortunately, the ones best equipped to answer that question are now teaching our kids and working 10-12 hour days.
please stop the spin jm
August 24th, 2010
9:47 am
“But I don’t think Hall is necessarily a culprit or even responsible except to the extent that she doesn’t root out the problem and punish those who cheated.”
jm, when you have largest falsification of discipline numbers in the state, 40 schools reporting ZERO discipline problems and the official response from the Hall regime is “…our reforms are working so well, there are no discipline problems to report…” you want us to believe Hall is not the culprit?
When she hires Penn Payne to say in an official report there is no evidence that APS cheated, you want us to believe Hall isn’t the culprit? When people start putting excerpts from the report on the AJC blogs showing that Payne admitted she has no expertise in erasure analysis, and didn’t even view the tests in question and the report suddenly disappears from the APS website a couple of hours later after, you want us to believe Hall isn’t the culprit?
Please.
godless heathen
August 24th, 2010
9:48 am
Gosh, where did I ever get the impression that anyone that opposed the construction of the not a mosque not at ground zero was being characterized as a neanderthal neocon?
If the murderous Islamists call themselves Islamists , it would be disrespectful for the media to not also call them Islamists.
ty webb
August 24th, 2010
9:48 am
“but to ensure third party oversight of the testing”. Great idea! Maybe the APS could contract out these 3rd party overseers. Afterall, if they’re anything like the City of Atlanta, I’m pretty sure there are plenty of cousins and relatives who need jobs…oh, and “neocon”(for Amvet).
Kamchak
August 24th, 2010
9:48 am
Jay seems to be a better at keeping the trolls under the bridge…
I certainly wish he would share his methods with his colleague next door, as I was called out for a name-jacker’s antics.
A name-jacker that pulled the same stunts on this site the night before Jay left for vacation.
itpdude
August 24th, 2010
9:52 am
This is not saying the cheating was right; it was not right to cheat on these tests.
But something that is being ignored is WHY the C of A schools felt the NEED to cheat.
The CRCT is not that difficult. In fact, it’s a cake-walk. . . . for students who’ve actually been showing up at school, doing the most basic of tasks (like staying awake in class), and not simply getting passed along from grade to grade and made the next level’s problem.
The students in the C of A are not as well prepared to take such a test as their counter-parts in other parts of the state. This is for several reasons and we would do well to investigate and recognize these reasons rather than go on some witch-hunt for desperate teachers and administrators who cheated out of sheer desperation.
Gale
August 24th, 2010
9:54 am
“The world needs ditch diggers too.” For the most part, I agree with the idea of pathing students from 12 years old. I think it can provide a better learning experience. What we as a society must move beyond is the idea that only those who go to college are worthy of respect. Even when I was in school in the 60s and vo-ed was still prevalent, the vocational students were looked down on. I can’t tell you the number of dim bulb college degrees I work with every day.
Bruno
August 24th, 2010
9:54 am
“Now I really must go and please try to refrain from changing my words and then putting them in quotes. I swear you and Brunos are like Siamese twins.”
“And I can see why you make the comparison. Bruno, generally uses a plethora of facts, data, evidence, links and corroboratable (?) sources to bolster his position. A position, that by definition, does not sit well with rhetoricians.”
You know, AmVet, the funny thing about RW’s charge is that each time I made the effort to find his original quotes, they were almost verbatim to what I quoted, yet he still claimed that I misrepresented him. And each time, I gave him the opportunity to clarify what he intended to say in case I was misunderstanding him, and each time he refused. I’m not versed enough in psychology to understand why someone would choose to be an @@sshole when a simple clarification would suffice, but to each his/her own I guess.
stands for decibels
August 24th, 2010
9:55 am
Google’s got Godless available to view. You can see for yourself what an excellent book it is.
I did a search for “Jersey Girls” therein. The “tiny fraction” of time spent on these 9/11 widows, whom Ms. Coulter refers to variously as “broads,” “increasingly rabid,” “weeping widows,” “witches of East Brunswick” and one of their spokespeople as an “all-purpose scold,” only occurs on pages 103, 108, 111, 282, 284, 289 and 292.
Doggone/GA
August 24th, 2010
9:56 am
“we would do well to investigate and recognize these reasons rather than go on some witch-hunt for desperate teachers and administrators who cheated out of sheer desperation.”
In some cases though, that might be a circular argument. It remains to be seen what comes of the investigation, but I can envision that at least SOME teachers might be desperate because they are not GOOD teachers and were not able to motivate their students to learn, thereby leading to a “desperate” need to cheat on the tests.
Granny Godzilla
August 24th, 2010
9:57 am
Kamchak
I knew it wasn’t you…..
Peadawg
August 24th, 2010
9:58 am
“as I was called out for a name-jacker’s antics.”
It was probably one of your squirrels getting back at you for using them all the time for your fetish fun.
Matti
August 24th, 2010
9:59 am
As a parent, I believe NCLB standardized testing is part of the problem. Teachers spend WEEKS “teaching to the test.” That means repetition and memorization, not teaching the children to think and analyze. The smarter kids are beyond bored and tune out. The kids who need the extra prep time learn to memorize and repeat. You cannot teach children everything they need to know in the world — they MUST learn to think. I understand that testing is necessary form of measurement, no doubt. But the way it’s implemented these days, it often comes at the expense of education.
AmVet
August 24th, 2010
9:59 am
For you neo-cons (hat tip Ron Paul): “Political demagoguery rules when truth and liberty are ignored.”
Kamchak, I was just thinking that between the end of the Bookman diaspora and the regular “contributions” of those intellectual giants and emotionally restrained stalwarts such as Grand Forks, No More Progressives, the cowards/mystery meats, ad infinitum, ad nauseum, Wingfield’s totals are going to go right back to minuscule levels.
Which is exactly what some of the faithful want here – to see this forum devolve into a far right wing trash heap…
HDB
August 24th, 2010
10:00 am
People have asked what would make the education process improve; having been educated by APS….and having my mother be a 44-yr veteran of APS, here’s my take on this:
1) Quit teaching to pass the test….teach the course for knowledge! If the student can pass the in-class exams….the standardized testing should be OK
2) Create an alternate track for some students….rather than all working towards collegiate focus, create a technical/vocational environment as well as collegiate
3) Allow teachers and principals to invoke discipline in the classroom; remove those who refuse to abide
4) Create alternate schools for those who have problems with the traditional methodology…..particularly those with learning disabilities
5) Insure that an adequate funding source is maintained…and that equivalent spending per school is maintained
6) Create a cooperative environment whereas parental involvement works in conjunction with the teaching application
7) Optimize the use of technology in the educational process
If all this is done, our children can and WOULD be educated……just as we were in the day!!!
Midori
August 24th, 2010
10:00 am
Finn: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-august-23-2010/the-parent-company-trap
jed
August 24th, 2010
10:00 am
As per Jay Bookman’s earlier blog————————
“I can remember a time when American conservatives argued vehemently that there could only be one truth, THE truth. It was a foundation stone in the conservative philosophy. The counter notion that truth was instead a relative concept, that one person’s concept of truth could be as valid as the next person’s, was dismissed as soft-headed liberalism. Sadly, that is now ancient history.”
Jay states that conservatives are as soft-headed as liberals in accepting the premise that all “truth” is ” relevant”.
So how could a test be cheated on? There are no RIGHT answers.
please stop the spin jm
August 24th, 2010
10:00 am
“It would be nice if Jay or someone else investigated this further. Obviously its clear that the teachers can’t be trusted to administer the tests, and thankfully this has been fixed.”
Thank you for showing your ignorance on this particular issue jm. The ONLY people to have been sanctioned in the cheating scandal in the state so far are two school administrators, NOT teachers.
As multiple people have reported, by FAR the most likely candidates to have the time and unfettered access to the tests to make the number of erasure marks recorded are administrators, not teachers.
Even if some teachers were involved it is highly unlikely that they could have gained access to the tests for the sheer amount of time needed to do this without an administrator granting them that access after the tests were “signed in”.
Bosch
August 24th, 2010
10:00 am
Doggone,
Not sure how it is in all schools, simply going on personal experience, but many times the best teachers seem to get the worst kids.
Southern Comfort
August 24th, 2010
10:00 am
My profs were more interested in seeing what we could do with information rather than seeing how much we could memorize.
I’ve never quite understood why education wants to put so much emphasis on memorization. When you start on a job, there is usually an ojt period where you learn how to do things the company way. They don’t expect you to come in and already know how to do things from memory based on what you learned in school. Granted, you should at least know the basics, but most jobs give you the training necessary to do the job.
Bosch
August 24th, 2010
10:01 am
Doggone,
And yes, I know that seems a bit hard to evaluate as to how the measure the “best teacher” — but it’s just personal observation.
Matti
August 24th, 2010
10:02 am
HDB at 10:00,
Excellent list!!
Kamchak
August 24th, 2010
10:03 am
Granny Godzilla
Thank you for that. I saw your supporting comments yesterday to Ms. Tucker.
I enjoy the freedom of the AJC sites from creating a sign-in account, but what I experienced yesterday is beginning to change my mind.
jm
August 24th, 2010
10:08 am
please stop the spin – I assume you’re referring to Hall, not me, since I don’t have a dog in this fight one way or the other, except that I care immensely about our state and city’s future.
At any rate, like I said, at minimum Hall is not the miracle worker she thought she might have been. However, I have a hard time believing that someone would work as hard as she has (with some failures) over 10 years to turn the schools around (with reasonably significant success, albeit helped by the replacement of housing projects in the city with mixed income), only to find out she’s really the Bernie Madoff of school systems.
I think she’s delusional with respect to the teachers, and probably too full of herself, but that happens with people that get too much applause generally.
I think she’s really helped turn the schools around in Atlanta, relative to where they were 10 years ago. She needs to wrap up the next year or two and we need to get someone new in the drivers seat. Preferably Michelle Rhee.
Kamchak
August 24th, 2010
10:08 am
It was probably one of your squirrels getting back at you for using them all the time for your fetish fun.
No Peadawg.
It was probably you, as you were the one caught name-jacking over there.
Southern Comfort
August 24th, 2010
10:08 am
Kamchak
That’s why I kinda keep to Jay’s blog. There’s a bit more decorum here, and Jay stays on top of things like that.
HDB
August 24th, 2010
10:09 am
Matti August 24th, 2010
10:02 am
Thanks…..almost forgot…
9) Change the grading system to 3-or-4 levels: A, B, and F…or A,B,C,F!!
10) Create a business/educational partnership to create mentorships for students……set the example as to where an education can take one!!
11) Create high school internships so that students can have work EXPERIENCE and create a work ETHIC!!
I had examples like this that led me to desiring a college education; all the students in MY high school were EXPECTED to graduate college — nothing less was acceptable!! Schools need to go back to that focus…..
Notice
August 24th, 2010
10:10 am
Ever notice, and it happens in so many walks of life, when a leader treats those under him/her with respect, and that leader faces a crisis, the rank and file will speak out on the leader’s behalf?
Notice how few if any of the rank and file are speaking out on behalf of Hall? What does that say about the corporate culture of APS and how they treat employees? Think that might have a detrimental effect on how students are treated?
Peadawg
August 24th, 2010
10:10 am
“No Peadawg.”
Have they forgiven you now? How the therapy session go?
“It was probably you, as you were the one caught name-jacking over there.”
I did it to Cynthia once. Don’t believe me? Tell her to check the IP addresses. That’ll solve this real fast.
Gale
August 24th, 2010
10:11 am
I sure agree with the Bookman regulars regarding Tucker’s bloggers. It gets nasty over there. We rarely see such nastiness here even when the topic does get heated.
jm
August 24th, 2010
10:12 am
You know, if people didn’t have such stupid short term memories, people would be taking a more balanced view on Hall. For people who know and can remember what APS looked like 10 years ago, Hall has accomplished an immense amount. I’ve lived here since 2000. I live in the city, not the burbs or somewhere else, so I’ve seen these schools improve physically and operationally.
There are obviously some corrupt teachers and principals who need to be immediately fired. The testing procedures needed to, and have been, corrected. And Hall needs to wrap up her tenure and work hard to find a very good replacement (along with the Mayor and the school board).
But to conclude that Hall is an abject failure is to be just wrong. If you look where APS was 10 years ago, we’ve made a lot of progress and Hall deserves at least a significant portion of that credit…. (the balance going to the AHA and the business community).
Bruno
August 24th, 2010
10:13 am
“The schools in economically challenged neighborhoods often suffer because (a) they don’t have as much money, and (b) parents are too busy scraping out a living to be bothered with the school, or (c) parents in the neighborhood have no concept of what’s possible, because nobody showed them when they were young.”
The only problem with the “not enough money” theory, Matti, is that many of the worst performing school systems nationwide (e.g. Washington DC) spend far more per pupil than the best performing school systems (e.g. South Dakota). Here in the metro area, the APS spends far more per pupil than either Cobb or Gwinnett, with little to show for it. Parental involvement is part of it, and I think plain lack of IQ accounts for the rest.
http://www.epodunk.com/top10/per_pupil/
“Unfortunately, the ones best equipped to answer that question are now teaching our kids and working 10-12 hour days.”
Sometimes, Bosch, an outsider can offer a more valid opinion than an insider.
Saul Good
August 24th, 2010
10:14 am
HDB: “5) Insure that an adequate funding source is maintained…and that equivalent spending per school is maintained”
Now that’s something I’ve ALWAYS been preaching… but overall…all you said was true and correct. Great post!
Matti
August 24th, 2010
10:16 am
HDB,
Raise the expectations of our students; mediocrity is NOT acceptable!
PREACH IT! I embraced this from the moment I gave birth. (Actually whispered subliminal messages to sleeping baby…. I know, a bit obssessive.) I cannot for the life of me understand why every parent and teacher does not LIVE this mantra. I don’t think I exert excessive pressure — balance is important! — but I always encourage the children to have a sense of pride and reach for the top, (never the middle) of any endeavor. Nobody is going to be good at everything, but people who do well in school have more choices in life, and people who have choices are the ones who can do something that they enjoy and be happy! Those who don’t reach don’t have choices, and frankly, have to take what they can get later on.
HDB
August 24th, 2010
10:18 am
Bruno August 24th, 2010
10:13 am
“Here in the metro area, the APS spends far more per pupil than either Cobb or Gwinnett, with little to show for it. Parental involvement is part of it, and I think plain lack of IQ accounts for the rest.”
Let’s agree on some parts of this:
1) There are some that shift the curve downward in all systems
2) Some students are NOT good test takers…but are good in application
3) Some teachers can NOT teach in the traditional methodology
4) Some students can not LEARN using the traditional paradigm…..
If we make the proper adjustments…..we all can improve the educational system……
It’s not ALL in the IQ….but methodology AND parental involvement!!
AmVet
August 24th, 2010
10:18 am
Bruno, two thoughts on the matter.
First, you noted almost immediately that a tiny few “warned” you to avoid me. As though you were not properly capable of drawing your own conclusions about someone based on what you read. Now if this is not the definition of puerile, I’m not sure what qualifies.
Also heretofore, though I’ve remained completely silent on the topic you speak of, I noted closely those interactions. And trust me, outside of some ideologically like-minded hyper-partisans, I doubt that anyone would disagree with the truthfulness of what you state. You are not alone in dealing with his odd penchant for circular reasoning and being a master of the five rules of dodgeball.
I had almost identical experiences as you described years ago at Luckovich’s and in short order, gave up.
Someone makes an unfounded claim that left-wingers were exploiting 9/11 families (slightly paraphrased) and I responded with an irrefutably correct quote from an enormously popular darling of the right wing with and I’m called out for it.
Go figure.
Juan Mo time: “Political demagoguery rules when truth and liberty are ignored.”
paleo-neo-Carlinist
August 24th, 2010
10:21 am
Saul, just to be clear, I think the Caddyshack folks were commenting on the value of “education” vs. “class” in terms of the real world (1981).
RW-(the original)
August 24th, 2010
10:22 am
Bruno,
You’ve managed to come up with one quote ever that you seem to rely on every time you lie about what I’ve said. Yesterday when you lied about my mosque position I spelled it out for about the tenth time. You ignored it and now once again say I refuse to clarify my positions. You’re certainly free to call me names and lie about me as long as Jay B allows you to, but I would think you would just ignore me.
sfb,
Are you familiar with the “afterword” and “footnote” sections of books? Four of the pages you reference come in those sections and there was a big honking clue right on the cover of the book you linked to showing that the afterword was not from the original release.
TaxPayer
August 24th, 2010
10:22 am
Ouch! Existing home sales took a nose dive. Not to worry though. I hear there will be a good turnout for both buyers and sellers on the courthouse steps come september.
tommytwotone
August 24th, 2010
10:23 am
Jay, write another column about how the economy is improving and how much the Obama stimulus “saved the day”. Should be a hoot.
Normal
August 24th, 2010
10:25 am
I did it to Cynthia once. Don’t believe me? Tell her to check the IP addresses. That’ll solve this real fast.
That has no substance since Ms. Tucker in on vacation, but I bet you knew that, right?
Matti
August 24th, 2010
10:25 am
Bruno,
I agree that money alone is not sufficient. It’s HOW the money is spent that matters! One-size-fits-all is not the best approach. If a district is spending twice per pupil and getting half the results, then it’s time for some serious analysis and reallocation. Simply slashing the budget is not the answer.
Also, I have to agree with previous posts on the importance of non-college-track education. Not every kid wants to or can handle traditional college. Meaningful options for them are slim, yet they still need practical and life skills in order to make their way in the world. Too many are flung out there unprepared, and that’s a waste. Everybody is good at something, and to have a successful economy, we need to encourage people to seek their potential and have some pride. The cycle of discouragement is bad for all of us.
HDB
August 24th, 2010
10:27 am
@ Saul Good and Matti: Thanks…..
For me, it’s not a liberal or conservative ideology….it’s what has worked for me!! I was blessed to have a mother who was a teacher…family who generated HIGH expectations, mentors who were the examples as to where I needed to be…..and confidence instilled by a great support system to reach to all the gusto I could!! the word “NO” just meant that I had the think that I was from Missouri: “I’ll SHOW YOU!”
In this time, some kids don’t have that support….and somehow, that has to be created!!
Another thing: Teacher HAVE to be free to teach those who they see have great potential!! The problem with this is that there are LEGAL implications that MUST be connfronted. Imagine a male teacher seeing potential in a group of female students….and he becomes their mentor!! The possibility of an ACCUSATION of sexual impropriety WILL rear its head. Understand why there is a dearth of male teachers…THAT’S why!! I heard of a male teacher in Iowa falsely accused….took him SIX YEARS to clear his name!! The converse is also true….with female teachers and male students!! Got to address that too!!
paleo-neo-Carlinist
August 24th, 2010
10:29 am
HDB, while I suspect Judge Schmales observation was more arrogance than altruism, I think he would agree with #2. there’s nothing wrong with technical/vocational training. ever see an auto mechanic “go to work” when a Buckhead homemaker pulls into the shop in a $40,000.00 SUV? we have too many bankers and lawyers all trying to get rich shuffling paper, while competent tree surgeons, a/c repairmen and electricians are hard to find.
TaxPayer
August 24th, 2010
10:29 am
I just hope that these poor kids don’t end up with teachers that tell them that deficits don’t matter while they’re running them up and that they do matter when someone else is running them up. What kind of message does that send to the young and impressionable.
paleo-neo-Carlinist
August 24th, 2010
10:31 am
Kamchack, no worries, re: name-jacking. just slap a neo or paleo onto your nomme de blog and stay one step ahead (or is it behind) the cowardly name-jackers. does anyone know the Sharia law penalty for name-jacking?
@@
August 24th, 2010
10:32 am
Don’t forget:
If believing that embryos have one intended purpose is lacking in compassion, then so be it.
There are others ways that a person can show compassion, but my guess is…those don’t count in your good book.
@@
August 24th, 2010
10:33 am
Sorry! My 10:32 was intended for downstairs.
Bruno
August 24th, 2010
10:34 am
“As though you were not properly capable of drawing your own conclusions about someone based on what you read.”
AmVet–At this point in life, I judge people primarily by their heart. And I’ve learned along the way that the more effort someone puts into telling you how great of a person they are (i.e. what a great “Christian” they are), the more you need to avoid them. At the other extreme, most of the greatest people I’ve met are very self-deprecating. Without naming any names, that correlation holds true here on the blog.
Saul Good
August 24th, 2010
10:35 am
Food for thought…
I decided to look at my own School District where I attended HS… only because I believe that ALL teachers and administrators should get comparable pay..and be held to the “same” level when it comes to results. So I ask…does paying teachers MORE and holding them to a higher level of accomplishments end up producing “better” students in the long run? Or…is it due to the parenting skills, and peer pressure to do well in school?
Here’s the link:
http://www.longislandschools.com/districts/great-neck-school-district.html
“Spending Per Student: $21,910
General Education Spending: $73,208,063
Special Education Spending: $24,991,235
Percent Spent On Instruction: 73.9%
Average Teacher Salary: $87,444
Student Dropout Rate: 0.2%
Students Receiving Reduced/Free Lunch: 12%
Students With Limited English Skills: 5.8%
Graduates Receiving Regents Diplomas: 92%
Graduates Receiving Advanced Diplomas: 74%
Notice the drop out rate? In my entire time in HS I knew of only “2″ kids that dropped out. Notice the “average” salary? In GA I believe it’s somewhere around $43K (correct me if I’m wrong)… yes this is only ONE school district I’m providing…but truth be told… nearly every kid I went to school with goes on to college. It was expected.
So was it our “parents” who instilled those values? Teachers? BETTER teachers because of what they got paid… I’d think that the salaries had little to do with it… parents and expectations of there kids DID have much to do with it…
Yet my point is that I have a problem with the fact that the teachers get paid SO much more. There are many, many teachers making 6 figures (including one of my best friends who is a math teacher on Long Island)…
Would offering “top salaries” that are competitive with what one can earn in the business world attract “better” teachers? Me? I believe that teaching is one of the most important jobs in society…so if we paid more across the board in every district in every state… would teaching become a “competitive” career and only get the BEST teachers?
Not sure myself…
HDB
August 24th, 2010
10:43 am
Saul Good August 24th, 2010
10:35 am
“Would offering “top salaries” that are competitive with what one can earn in the business world attract “better” teachers? Me? I believe that teaching is one of the most important jobs in society…so if we paid more across the board in every district in every state… would teaching become a “competitive” career and only get the BEST teachers?”
It would be a starting point; in some systems, starting saleries for teachers in $27K…..and look at the time put in: preparation, lesson plans, creation of exams, grading…..and then maintaining credentials/certification, additional courses, advancement criteria……
If you want to attract better teachers, try this:
1) Increase starting saleries to at least $32K
2) Tuition reimbursement for additional certifications/required courseloads/graduate courses
3) Academic bonuses for extra-educational pursuits that improve the educational paradigm (my mother assisted in the writing of most HS Biology books, being a member of BSCS (Biological Sciences Curriculum Study))….
That would work wonders………
@@
August 24th, 2010
10:45 am
AmVet:
Thbbppbbbttt!
First, you noted almost immediately that a tiny few “warned” you to avoid me. As though you were not properly capable of drawing your own conclusions about someone based on what you read. Now if this is not the definition of puerile, I’m not sure what qualifies.
BS!
Since I’m among “the tiny few”, clarification is in order.
I said Bruno was free to associate with whomever he pleased, but there was no point in trying to convince me you were someone other than who, I’ve come to know over the years.
jm
August 24th, 2010
10:45 am
HDB, if I may add to your list
1. Require a Masters Degree for every teacher
2. End tenure
3. Pay for performance – make bonus’ 25% or more of comp
This will get rid of all the do-nothing idiot teachers in neutral. And would be impossible because the union would fight it all the way….
Bosch
August 24th, 2010
10:47 am
Bruno,
Eh. Maybe for some things, but I tend to think the professionals in this business as in any business are better at implementing and evaluating improvements than say, those who blog about it — and remember, school boards are usually made up of folks who aren’t educators, per say.
Paul
August 24th, 2010
10:47 am
Normal 9:19
“I have read that and I completely disagree with that assement.
By stating that, he is declaring war on ALL of Islam. “
I don’t read it that way. I read it that there is a potent and dangerous element within Islam that views their true interpretation according to the jihadist/caliphate model. Authors like Walid Phares wrote about this long before 9-11 and not once did they say “they call themselves Muslim, but they aren’t.”
“Islam needs to be put out of the equation and tell the Middle East People we are fighting terrorists who hide under the mantel of Islam but are not true Muslims. “
I don’t mean this to sound combative, but that sounds rather condescending, for a nonMuslim, Westerner to tell someone who’s an imam or jihadist ‘you know, I’ve studied Islam and I’m here to tell you you aren’t really a Muslim.”
It rather strikes me in the same vein as what the Catholic Church said centuries ago to Martin Luther or Calvin or Henry: “you aren’t really Christians.”
paleo-neo
“American neo-Conservative (Islamic) extremists use perceived threats to their nation (religion) by Muslim and Mexicans (outsiders) to mobilize support for their political agenda (insurgency) and justify amending/ignoring the 1st and 14th Amendments to the Constitution (terrorist tactics)”. Sounds to me like Newt, Palin, et al are taking a page from the Islamofacist Playbook.”
Now if I can use other reasoning I’d have Chinese President Hu Jintao saying “I studied America and Christianity, and I declare these people aren’t really Americans and they aren’t really Christians.”
HDB
August 24th, 2010
10:48 am
Off-Topic…but….THIS is EXACTLY what laws like Arizona’s SB 1070 create…and it’s HERE!!
Lawsuit against Cobb police alleges racial profiling
“A 23-year-old Latino man has filed a lawsuit against the Cobb County Police Department claiming that two officers stopped him without cause, beat him and then jailed him on a pretext in an effort to get him deported.
The civil rights lawsuit filed in federal district court in Atlanta alleges that Angel Franciso Castro Torres was riding his bike on South Cobb Drive in unincorporated Smyrna on March 26 when he was stopped by Officers Jeremiah M. Lignitz and Brian J. Walraven. The lawsuit says the officers asked to see Castro’s identification and inquired about his immigration status. At some point during the stop, the lawsuit alleges, Lignitz also punched Castro, breaking his nose and eye socket.
Officers state that they noticed Castro riding his bicycle because he was wearing unspecified “gang attire.” ”
When you give the cops unfettered POWER…..remember Kathryn Johnston and Amadou Diallo!!
@@
August 24th, 2010
10:48 am
Oops! forgot to comment on the topic.
There’s no incentive…ABSOLUTELY NONE…that would encourage me to rob a child of their education.
Bosch
August 24th, 2010
10:48 am
“And would be impossible because the union would fight it all the way….”
Why must we do this everytime education gets brought up:
THERE ARE NO TEACHER UNIONS IN GEORGIA.
Thank you, now, continue with regularly schedule broadcasting.
HDB
August 24th, 2010
10:52 am
jm August 24th, 2010
10:45 am
1) There are no teachers’ union here in Georgia…so that’s unnecessary
2) Some pursuits don’t require a Masters’ Degree…but making it a desirable qualification — and rewarding someone for having it…would help!!
3) Pay for performance would work!
4) Tenure isn’t a bad thing….what I would like to see is tenure at a particular school be maintained! Why are good teachers always being moved from good performing schools….or being moved from improving schools??!!?? What needs to be seen is HOW these good teachers TEACH….and apply to as many classrooms as possible…..
THAT’S the ticket……
HDB
August 24th, 2010
10:53 am
Bosch August 24th, 2010
10:48 am
Got your back on that one…….
Southern Comfort
August 24th, 2010
10:53 am
And I’ve learned along the way that the more effort someone puts into telling you how great of a person they are (i.e. what a great “Christian” they are), the more you need to avoid them.
So, that means I need not talk about how Chuck Norris I am at work?
@@
August 24th, 2010
10:53 am
Bosch:
There may not be teachers’ unions, per se, but I can tell you that Clayton County lost their accreditation due to battles between MACE and GAE.
StJ
August 24th, 2010
10:54 am
Now we get to see what happens when the beneficiaries of social promotion in the 90s are now in charge of the schools.
When I went to school, you either learned the material or you failed. Failure was bad news for your hindside when you got home (and cheating was worse). The failures went on to be manual laborers instead of getting a college degree they didn’t earn.
Matti
August 24th, 2010
10:56 am
I do think that better treatment of teachers goes hand in hand with expectations. So many enter the profession full of idealism and hope, only to become jaded and bitter, and (tired of being broke), drop out to pursue other professions. When the kids come home and complain of angry teachers that spend 45 minutes yelling and berating them, and 5 minutes on the subject matter, there’s a systemic problem. No one goes into teaching so they call yell at kids all day, but sadly, this is not a rare occurrence.
The free-market capitalists are quick to defend the fact that a professional athlete can get a 5-year, $60 mil contract, but teachers have to make it on $40K. “He generates revenue! The teacher leeches off my taxes.” As a society, I think some of our priorities are seriously out of whack. The educated citizens of India are kicking our butts on a number of economic fronts, even without a world-class running back. It’s not just about doing jobs cheaper, it’s about being ABLE to do the jobs that leave our shores.
Sound long-term investing: it’s not just for individuals. It’s good for a nation as well.
HDB
August 24th, 2010
10:56 am
@@ August 24th, 2010
10:48 am
“Oops! forgot to comment on the topic.
There’s no incentive…ABSOLUTELY NONE…that would encourage me to rob a child of their education.”
The problem is that there are some that WILL!! When the first thing said by many is “cut education spending” BLINDLY….without looking at what’s effective…..that’s robbery!! If the nation ran a cost-benefit analysis of education vs. PRISONS, we’d discover that educational spending would generate a greater BENEFIT than spending on PRISONS!!
Bosch
August 24th, 2010
11:00 am
@@,
No they didn’t — they lost their accreditation because they didn’t meet SAC standards which is the only way a school can lose accreditation. Blaming it on professional organizations is the cheap way out.
Southern Comfort
August 24th, 2010
11:00 am
As a society, I think some of our priorities are seriously out of whack. The educated citizens of India are kicking our butts on a number of economic fronts, even without a world-class running back.
Matti for Governor or Secretary of Education!!!
cat dancer
August 24th, 2010
11:00 am
Teachers have to “dumb-down” the cirriculum for the slower kids and the bright ones are bored. I think we need to seperate students into groups according to their ability to learn,( that ought to get em howling). My wife is a special ed teacher and she has a different “plan” for each of her students. They are not all the same and this goes for the regular ed kids too.
Saul Good
August 24th, 2010
11:00 am
HDB@10:48 am
Wanna see “racial profiling”??? Come up 400 and enter into Dawsonville… take a good look at just who gets pulled over…
YourDaddyWasRight
August 24th, 2010
11:02 am
Jay, I fully concur with your assessment of Bob Wilson’s skills as an excellent prosecutor. He sure has a long and distinguished record of that. Bowers, on the other hand, was never a prosecutor while he was Attorney General. In fact, he never walked into a courtroom until he left public office and went into private practice. So, don’t be so quick to suggest he’s some kind of crack prosecutor in the same mold as Bob Wilson. He’s not. It may very well be that Bowers’s principal qualification for being appointed by Perdue appointment has to do with his loyalty to Perdue. Also, you need to keep track of the $$$ that these two attorneys will be charging. Apparently, Perdue’s using unspent dollars budgeted to vacant state positions — dollars that could have gone toward paying down the massive cuts which the next Georgia Governor will be faced to make in 2011.
HDB
August 24th, 2010
11:02 am
Matti August 24th, 2010
10:56 am
“I do think that better treatment of teachers goes hand in hand with expectations. So many enter the profession full of idealism and hope, only to become jaded and bitter, and (tired of being broke), drop out to pursue other professions. When the kids come home and complain of angry teachers that spend 45 minutes yelling and berating them, and 5 minutes on the subject matter, there’s a systemic problem. No one goes into teaching so they call yell at kids all day, but sadly, this is not a rare occurrence.”
Two reasons for this:
1) Teachers do NOT have the power to discipline or remove those who disrupt…and principals WON’T back the teachers!!
2) Lack of parental involvement…..parents view school as the babysitters that allow them their freedom! Those parents who are working multiple jobs in order to maintain the family unit….through no fault of their own, cede some responsibility to teachers because of economics!
If principals would back the teachers in matters of discipline and disrupton..the teaching atmosphere would change for the better!!
cat dancer
August 24th, 2010
11:03 am
Matti, Matti, Matti…I second that SC
HDB
August 24th, 2010
11:03 am
Saul Good August 24th, 2010
11:00 am
“HDB@10:48 am
Wanna see “racial profiling”??? Come up 400 and enter into Dawsonville… take a good look at just who gets pulled over…”
Like I don’t know that??? Wonder why I won’t drive to the Outlet Mall….
TaxPayer
August 24th, 2010
11:06 am
I think our children are, as they always do, learning precisely what we teach them. Perhaps, we’re just not asking them the appropriate questions on their tests.
Curious Observer
August 24th, 2010
11:07 am
Some pursuits don’t require a Masters’ Degree…but making it a desirable qualification — and rewarding someone for having it…would help!!
I’ll render a dissent here. Most masters degrees for teachers are in the general field of teacher education—materials and methods, etc., with a thesis on some arcane teacher or education theorist. The graduate courses don’t do a thing to improve a teacher’s knowledge of the teacher’s subject field—and usually that knowledge is the weakest part of the teacher’s credentials. Ask anybody who’s ever earned a straight math or English degree to comment on the subject knowledge requirements of the teacher education version. The nation’s education departments have teacher education requirements locked up, and they’re going to stay locked up. Those requirements are the education departments’ bread and butter.
Normal
August 24th, 2010
11:07 am
Paul @ 10:47,
I see your point and I can grugingly agree, but all I’m really trying to say (badly) is that to call this a religious war (and if you profile “Muslim”, it becomes so), is wrong and exactly what the terrorist wants. As a terrorist, I would like nothing more than for every set back I suffer, I could cry out and say, “See, they hate me because I’m Muslim”, and wait for my new recruits…
A wise man once told me that most politicians will tell you what you want to hear, slap you on the back and call you a great American, and tell you that if you vote for him, he will fix it all. Then after he is elected, if you don’t make over 250,000 a year, he’ll drop you like yesterday’s news.
This is the terrorist. He will tell his base anything to survive and he will kill them if he feels endangered. He will strike out at all he hates or envys, but he is not doing it for Allah, he just says he is. Tke religion out of this “war” and call them what they are.
And notice that I am comparing Politicans to Terrorists. Some of our “Leaders” are spreading fear and hatred. That is my definition of terror. What to do about that?
Southern Comfort
August 24th, 2010
11:07 am
LOL @ HDB!!!
Bruno
August 24th, 2010
11:07 am
“Yesterday when you lied about my mosque position I spelled it out for about the tenth time. You ignored it and now once again say I refuse to clarify my positions.”
RW–After you appeared to defend the mosque protesters several times, I asked you to state your own opinion as to whether it was appropriate or not to build the mosque in the planned location. Your numerous past references to “sensitivity” issues implied to me that you thought it was a bad idea. When I pressed you to clearly state your position, all you could come up with is “My position is that they have every right to build there and the people who oppose have every right to voice their opposition. Not exactly a difficult and highly nuanced position.” A non-answer if I ever saw one. Very similar to your “defense” of the religious posters. Very similar to your complaints last year that the music posters throughout the week were “ruining” Friday night. Maybe I’m looking for a clarity of thought which you can’t achieve.
“You’re certainly free to call me names and lie about me as long as Jay B allows you to, but I would think you would just ignore me.”
The bottom line, RW, is that you are one of the biggest hypocrites on the board. You complain regularly that people don’t stay on topic and use the board as a social gathering place (Morning Magpies, anyone?), but that all goes out the window when you want to give play-by-play descriptions of baseball games, or when you and your blog girlfriend, @@, want to coo at each other. You accuse me of calling you names, forgetting that you have called me a jackass, said you had no use for me, and have bragged about putting me and others through a “blog frisking”, whatever that is. You regularly alter other people’s blog names to get your digs in (sfb instead of sfd, AmWet, etc.), but appeal to Jay now that the tables are turned.
As far as ignoring you, I rarely engage you, because frankly, I find your one line analyses to be lacking. You’re free to go your way and I’ll go mine. You have your supporters on board and I have mine. But please, skip the dramatics and hypocrisy, will you?
Paulo977
August 24th, 2010
11:08 am
SOUTHERN
ATL…… @7:58am…. THAT of course is what this discussion should be about !!! NCLB , Standardized Testing , State Standards all put in place by NON-EDUCATORS!!!
Saul Good
August 24th, 2010
11:10 am
Matti:
“The free-market capitalists are quick to defend the fact that a professional athlete can get a 5-year, $60 mil contract, but teachers have to make it on $40K. “He generates revenue! The teacher leeches off my taxes.” As a society, I think some of our priorities are seriously out of whack. The educated citizens of India are kicking our butts on a number of economic fronts, even without a world-class running back. It’s not just about doing jobs cheaper, it’s about being ABLE to do the jobs that leave our shores.”
Yups! Let’s not forget how much of the money we spend gets funneled over there…by the very “American” corporations that see what they get when paying an “educated” workforce… I mean India has MANY problems with a highly poor population… but the “educated ones” in India make out nicely…they get paid LESS compared to what one might get paid here by the same US Corporation…but they get more “bang for the buck” as well…
and…
talking about the ball “runner, catcher, thrower” in our society… it starts at the school level…where coaches are valued MORE compared to math teachers… that coaches at UGA get paid WAY more compared to Biology teachers there… and that those same coaches…are “celebrities” in the news… yet one never hears as “breaking news” when UGA signs on a new math professor. Yes…there’s much wrong there. Most of all when only a small percent of the students playing football there will make it to the professional level…yet EVERY student who graduates (or does not graduate) enters our “work-force”….
MT
August 24th, 2010
11:12 am
Is our children learning?
Matti
August 24th, 2010
11:12 am
So Comf,
Not that I don’t appreciate a world-class running back! (I was a college classmate of one of the all-time greats!)
But like the President said in his “stay in school” speech last year THAT WAS NOT SHOWN IN MY CHILDREN’S SCHOOL because five parents called and screeched about the Marxist Muslim Communist *mother bleeping…* breathe Matti… breathe….. Not everyone is going to be a rap star or basketball great or get rich from reality TV. Success comes from studying and hard work, and finding your potential.. .by reaching and doing your best and not giving up. (I’m paraphrasing, but the text is here for those who missed it: http://www.whitehouse.gov/MediaResources/PreparedSchoolRemarks/)
If The Profit Fits
August 24th, 2010
11:13 am
Well it looks like maybe the Troy Davis soap opera is almost over. Soon there will be one less cop killer that we have to feed and clothe. What a waste. He could have had a career with the DEA in ebonics.
HDB
August 24th, 2010
11:13 am
Good morning, SoCo…..
Paulo977 August 24th, 2010
11:08 am
To a point, you’re right!! Educators need to be more involved in creating and maintaining standards…but they also need to generate input from multiple sources (i.e., the marketplace) to determine what is needed for the workforce!! Education must be a DYNAMIC entity…not static!!
Bosch
August 24th, 2010
11:16 am
Later folks!
please stop the spin jm
August 24th, 2010
11:17 am
jm, it’s the largest cheating scandal in Georgia’s education history. It follows one of the two largest discipline falsification scandals in Georgia’s educational history. It follows the biggest E-Rate scandal in Georgia’s educational history, and there is yet another E-Rate scandal that the AJC has already exposed.
Does this lack of integrity offset by the gains, especially now that the “gains” have been proven to be totally manipulated, as reported by this very paper, not only on the CRCT, but on the drop out rate and the NAEP as well?
Paul
August 24th, 2010
11:18 am
Normal
Interesting point. I’ll agree we should NOT describe this (for ourselves) as a religious war. And the implications on a national level is, I think, why the Obama Administration takes the stand it does.
But that also does not mean those jihadists who view it as their Islamic duty to drive out the invaders, overthrow governments who are allied with the West and who don’t follow Islam, who feel religious justification confirmed by their religious leaders for slaughtering women and kids, haven’t made it into a religious war.
“What to do about that?”
Well, from what I read at Ms Tucker’s, you label their speech as offensive, defeat them at the polls, then you go after any potential employer to try to keep them from ever having another job, tell other running for office if they say anything their group finds offensive they’ll organize a boycott and….
Bruno
August 24th, 2010
11:21 am
“It’s not ALL in the IQ….but methodology AND parental involvement!!”
HDB–All that we can hope for in the end is that each child lives up to their potential. As stated above, I have worked on the south side of town for the past few years and have worked in the inner city prior to that. Just my opinion, but I didn’t see many kids expressing an interest in education or living up to the potential that I saw in them. Maybe my expectations are too high.
“I think we need to seperate students into groups according to their ability to learn’
Sounds like a good idea, cat dancer, although that would work against the “self-esteem” goals that seem to be a big part of the curriculum these days. No one wants to be in the lower tier groups, although that’s where they’ll be once school is over.
“When the kids come home and complain of angry teachers that spend 45 minutes yelling and berating them, and 5 minutes on the subject matter, there’s a systemic problem.”
Do you think lack of discipline on the part of the kids is the culprit, or more a lack of teaching skills?
Paulo977
August 24th, 2010
11:24 am
What has standardized testing to do with what we want REAL education to do?
http://edwardboches.com/creativity-is-on-the-decline-just-when-we-need-it-most
@HBD
August 24th, 2010
11:25 am
HBD you really want to keep talented teachers in the public schools? Give them the authority to remove chronically disruptive students who hijack the educational process. What other manager, per se, is force to “manage” workers who:
A) Don’t show up for work
B) Don’t work when they show up
C) Verbally abuse coworkers
D) Verbally abuse management
E) Even physically threaten fellow employees/staff when management tries to intervene
And are ALLOWED to do A-E on an ongoing regular basis without being removed from the work environment? But we ask teachers to do this, then blame them when the schools don’t improve?
Southern Comfort
August 24th, 2010
11:26 am
Matti
I remember that speech. Like you, I got to witness some of the best ball throwers, catchers, and runners. Growing up, I played baseball and still have a great love for the sport. When I got to high school, I had to make a decision. There was school, baseball, and music. I knew I couldn’t do all three and succeed at them all. I made the conscious decision to drop baseball and focus on music and school. I ended up graduating in the top ten of my class (missed valedictorian by less than 2 points on a 100 pt scale) and attended college on a full academic scholarship and music scholarship. I don’t know if I would have gotten a sports scholarship had I kept playing, but I decided to cast my net where the odds of catching something in it were greater.
I don’t knock athletes, but at the same time, I don’t like the system that exploits them. If there was as much emphasis on helping scholars become potential 1st round draft picks in the job market, I think the education system would be much better.
Easy answer Bruno
August 24th, 2010
11:28 am
“Do you think lack of discipline on the part of the kids is the culprit, or more a lack of teaching skills?”
Walk into any struggling school and you will see a teacher or two that has NO control. But at that same school you can walk into EVERY classroom and see a student or two that has no control, and KNOWS the teachers are not being supported.
It’s a SYSTEMIC problem. That’s why teachers who have had great success in other systems often leave places like APS within a year or two and go back to having great success in places where they are supported.
Easy answer Bruno
August 24th, 2010
11:31 am
Put it this way Bruno. Is it any surprise that the school system with the biggest SYSTEMIC falsification of discipline data in the state’s history had to engage in the biggest cheating scandal in the state’s history to maintain their “gains”?
Think about that.
Bruno
August 24th, 2010
11:33 am
“So, that means I need not talk about how Chuck Norris I am at work?”
SC–If you’re as big as you say you are, no Norris posturing is required.
Do we need to start calling you Mr. Southern Comfort??
jm
August 24th, 2010
11:36 am
stop the spin – if you look at test scores between 2000 compared to 2010 (when they put in new procedures to stop cheating), scores have improved significantly. Yes they dropped between 2009 and 2010 (because of the elimination of the cheating), but what is important is the long run improvement.
@@
August 24th, 2010
11:36 am
Bosch:
WRONG! but then there’s no point in ME, trying to convince you. I’ll let the SACS report speak in support of my contention:
The Special Review Team finds that the Clayton County Board of Education is in violation of the SACS CASI Governance and Leadership standard for accreditation. In fact, the team found evidence to support a conclusion that the effectiveness of the Clayton County Board of Education is fatally flawed. The school system’s noncompliance with the SACS CASI standard for Governance and Leadership places the accreditation of the Clayton County Schools in jeopardy.
Recommendations:
1) Establish a governing board that is capable of fulfilling its roles and responsibilities.
2) Remove the influence of outside groups/individuals that are disruptive to the work of the school district.
3) Enact and commit to an Ethics Policy that governs the actions and work of the members of the Board of Education and staff including appropriate steps when said policy is violated.
4) Implement a comprehensive review of board policies that includes training for board members on the purpose and expectations of said policies.
5) Conduct a full, forensic audit of financials by an independent, certified accounting firm and take appropriate steps to address the findings of such an audit.
6) Conduct a comprehensive audit of student attendance records and take appropriate steps to ensure that attendance records are accurate and meet legal requirements.
7) Ensure that each member of the Board is a legal resident of the county and is eligible to hold the elected seat on the Board.
9) Appoint a permanent superintendent with the experience and expertise to lead the school district and establish proper conditions for effectiveness.
The report goes on to talk about how the system has failed to establish a vision for the system in collaboration with its stakeholders, and that the system has failed to communicate the system’s vision and purpose to build stakeholder understanding and support.
Then? The system has failed to identify system-wide goals and measures to advance the system’s vision. The individual Board members routinely act in a manner that is designed to advance their own personal agendas and not that of the school district. The Board abandoned a system wide curriculum program, two-thirds of the way through its contract with the curriculum provider because the program was not endorsed by the teacher’s union in which one of its members is the Executive Director. This left the school district without a clear curriculum for the school year and further deprived the schools and its teachers with an academic vision and purpose.
Read the last paragraph again, Bosch. The problem stemmed from conflict brought by board members who belonged to a teacher’s union.
Did SACS make it clear enough for you????
SOUTHERN ATL
August 24th, 2010
11:36 am
Paulo977@11:24…excellent article and I could not agree more….I have memorized info that was pertinent to a particular subject and had no problems mastering the test….If a teacher is going to teach Science, let them teach it outside of the test (CREATIVELY). They should be able to grasp the students attention to learn the subject even if the student says that they dislike that subject…I am not an educator but I have taught several training classes that were work related.
Matti
August 24th, 2010
11:37 am
Bruno,
I didn’t see many kids expressing an interest in education or living up to the potential that I saw in them. — And that’s a damn shame. They’re not born with that, you know. (They’re born hungry and sleepy…) It has to come from somewhere. That’s why I don’t understand people who think paying for public education is a waste. Uneducated, disinterested, lazy (sick, deprived, victims of tragic misfortune, whatever) people WILL reproduce! That’s a certainty! A percentage of the population is simply not going to be motivated from the home. As a society, we have two choices: Shrug our shoulders and let the chips fall where they may, or put forth an effort to fill that gap. It’s in our best interest (even if economics is the only thing one cares about) to TRY to fill that gap. Many successful people will tell you that it was “one special” teacher, coach, or non-parent who took an interest that made all the difference in their lives.
As for why the teachers are angry, I think there are many factors, not the least of which is that kids today seem to have an appalling lack of manners and discipline. I know many adults who could benefit from watching a few episodes of Super Nanny. Even the Dog Whisperer knows! A little psychology goes a long way, and calm and assertive wins the day!
jm
August 24th, 2010
11:38 am
TEACHERS UNIONS- ok, I guess the don’t exist legally in Georgia because we’re a right to work state, but the GAE functions as one. They wield as much clout in this state as any union. It’s why every politician is too scared to say what they know is the right thing to do: we will continue using test scores, we will increase the use of test scores, and we will tie it to pay.
If you don’t believe we have a teachers’ “union”, google Georgia Teachers Union and see what comes up (here’s the answer if you’re too lazy http://gae2.org/)
paleo-neo-Carlinist
August 24th, 2010
11:38 am
Paul, as I noted through my modification of the Petreus comments; it is essential to target and hunt terrorists (al Qeada) as opposed to Muslims. (some) Americans may not understand or acknowledge Islam as a “religion” but Muslims who do not commit acts of terror no not criminals (per U.S. law). and, as noted, when Americans (especially politicians and talking heads) start making exceptions for U.S. to “criminalize” otherwise legal activities, we are one step behind Nazi Germany. Hitler’s anti-Semitism was political, not theological. He viewed “Jews” as a social problem, not a challenge to his “faith”. Same is true re: al Qeada/terrorism. we need to separate jihad/terrorism from Islam. it’s not easy, but it can be done. in fact, it needs to be done. does the “motive” of a criminal really matter?
Bruno
August 24th, 2010
11:38 am
“HBD you really want to keep talented teachers in the public schools? Give them the authority to remove chronically disruptive students who hijack the educational process.”
“But at that same school you can walk into EVERY classroom and see a student or two that has no control, and KNOWS the teachers are not being supported.”
@HDB and Easy Answer Bruno–No arguments from me on that point. Classroom time is too valuable to waste on the few (?) who don’t want to be there. Even back in the 70s, I was prone to call out other students who were disrupting class because I was interested in what the teacher had to say, not what they had to say.
BTW, my guess is that (1) you are the same poster using different names and (2) You are a teacher, but don’t want to identify yourself for fear of reprisal. Any truth to that?? If so, you have my sympathies.
stop the spin jm
August 24th, 2010
11:39 am
jm, the largest cheating scandal in Georgia’s educational history is not important? It’s not important that after TEN YEARS the CRCT scores for the system are, the REAL ones, are among the very bottom in the entire state?
This doesn’t even take into account two E-Rate scandals that cost MILLIONS or other misdeeds. When does the excuse making stop jm?
jm
August 24th, 2010
11:44 am
stop the spin – chill a little. I never said the cheating scandal wasn’t important – of course it is.
And the teachers heads need to roll, and they will.
HDB
August 24th, 2010
11:47 am
Bruno August 24th, 2010
11:38 am
Same poster….same name for as long as I’ve been here!
My mother taught in APS for 44 years….I saw what SHE went through…and I was educated in APS also!! I saw what worked…and what didn’t firsthand…..
@@@
August 24th, 2010
11:49 am
Some facts to consider.
Yes it’s true. Members of GAE, which was the majority voting block in Clayton during the accreditation scandal, went to SACS. In particular the board chair had numerous visits with SACS when a reform minded board member affiliated with MACE started asking some uncomfortable questions about the board chair’s signatures on a questionable land deal that ended up with Clayton schools paying millions of dollars over market price.
But as far as using SACS as a justification for anything, why have they said nothing about the largest cheating scandal in Georgia’s educational history or the fact that the APS school board named 7 people to a “blue ribbon committee” to investigate it who had millions of dollars of business dealings with APS? Sounds like something SACS should be looking at; unless SACS is just as guilty of playing politics with accreditation as some of the people they accredit
JJ
August 24th, 2010
11:51 am
On a return flight from Portlant, OR I sat next to a gentleman who works for one of the major testing companies. We talked about the GA cheating scandel and he was neither surprised or appalled. He said he has seen much worse in other states. How disappointing, we’re last in most testing categories and now I find out were not even at the top of the list for cheaters.
Karma
August 24th, 2010
11:52 am
Mr. Bookman -
How much are you getting paid to do positive HR for B. Hall?
And if that is not what you’re doing, who do you buy your drugs from?
Karma
August 24th, 2010
11:53 am
Sorry PR, my drugs are working well today
jm
August 24th, 2010
11:53 am
stop the spin – you’re a twit and don’t have your facts straight. I’ll get them for you shortly.
stop the spin jm
August 24th, 2010
11:53 am
“And the teachers heads need to roll, and they will.”
Again jm you show your ignorance. ADMINISTRATORS are the only ones to be officially sanctioned so far. You think teachers are erasing 175-200 questions on the CRCT with a classroom full of children looking on? You think classroom teachers are out of their classrooms for the HOURS it would take to do this?
If teachers have in fact done this, it’s is only because ADMINISTRATORS gave them unfettered access to the tests AFTER regular school hours.
You are simply showing your ignorance on the matter at hand jm.
stop the spin jm
August 24th, 2010
11:54 am
stop the spin – you’re a twit and don’t have your facts straight. I’ll get them for you shortly.
Yet jm, please tell show us how the AJC hasn’t got their facts straight on a story they’ve been on for two years.
mmm, mmm, mmm, Barack the Liar Obama - BEND OVER, Here comes the CHANGE!
August 24th, 2010
12:01 pm
and the “good” news just keeps coming in for NObama – try and blame this one on “W”:
Existing-Home Sales Plunge to Lowest Level in 11 Years
mmm, mmm, mmm, Barack the Liar Obama - BEND OVER, Here comes the CHANGE!
August 24th, 2010
12:04 pm
Some more “good” news for Mr. Jump the Gun NObama…..
Sherrod Not Returning to Ag Department – Guess she won’t be able to discriminate any longer.
jm
August 24th, 2010
12:04 pm
Percent Meet or Exceed State Standard
2000 Test Results / 2010 (clean) Test Results
4th Reading: 47% / 81%
4th Math: 43% / 64%
6th Reading: 52% / 86%
6th Math: 46% / 62%
8th Reading: 60% / 90%
8th Math: 36% / 63%
However, yes, they are near the bottom, but there are 30 counties that have done worse, and the improvement is drastic.
If you don’t call that improvement, I don’t know what is. So “stop the spin”, go shut up and get your facts straight. You should be kissing her @ss, pardon my language. I bet you haven’t achieved a 10th of what Hall has in her life. I’m not a huge fan of Hall, but you’re a piece of junk.
HDB
August 24th, 2010
12:06 pm
Bruno August 24th, 2010
11:21 am
“It’s not ALL in the IQ….but methodology AND parental involvement!!”
“HDB–All that we can hope for in the end is that each child lives up to their potential. As stated above, I have worked on the south side of town for the past few years and have worked in the inner city prior to that. Just my opinion, but I didn’t see many kids expressing an interest in education or living up to the potential that I saw in them. Maybe my expectations are too high.”
Bruno…thought about this one for a minute…and my question is this: Were your expectations NOT HIGH ENOUGH?? Having been born and raised on the Southside…..I believe that children, with the proper tools and motivation can RISE to meet whatever expectation we desire. The problem is that they exist in an “instant gratification” paradigm….THEY WANT IT ALL…NOW!! They think that rappers and athletes are the fastest way to success…but fail to note that many of the rappers and athletes are COLLEGE GRADUATES!! Wh have to instill two things into children to insure their successes: patience and perserverance!!
mmm, mmm, mmm, Barack the Liar Obama - BEND OVER, Here comes the CHANGE!
August 24th, 2010
12:08 pm
jm – You must be either the one driving her around or her secruity. Don’t deny it, your loyalty is too obvious. She’s at the top – doesn’t the blame go there? Close your eyes and click your heels, you’re not in Kansas anymore…..REAL WORLD – She and her cronnies should be dismissed – withOUT severance.
jm
August 24th, 2010
12:08 pm
stop the spin – Apparently you need to go back to school. I know the teachers haven’t been fired yet. The verb “will” suggests that something is going to happen in the future but hasn’t yet. You probably need to go as far back as elementary school.
If those teachers aren’t fired, I’ll throw a tempertantrum like everyone else. They should have been fired already, but apparently there’s some BS process necessary. Anyway, as I said, they WILL be fired,and if they’re not, Atlanta residents will protest…
Southern Comfort
August 24th, 2010
12:13 pm
Bruno
Actually, I’ve been working on shedding a few lbs. Trying to get down close to 200. I’m sitting at about 235lbs now. I’m trying to lose weight but not bulk up. I’ve been burning fat, but I’m not doing too well at not trying to put on muscle.
jm
August 24th, 2010
12:15 pm
mmm – like I said before, yes she should go. Within the next year or two. On balance, she’s been a pretty decent Superintendent, but its time for her to go.
She shouldn’t be fired abruptly because finding a GOOD new superintendent isn’t an easy process. They should commence the process now and have a replacement by next school year (or the one after).
Paulo977
August 24th, 2010
12:17 pm
A more thoughtful consideration of DISCIPLINE
http://www.ed.uiuc.edu/eps/PES-Yearbook/94_docs/COVALESK.HTM
Matti
August 24th, 2010
12:18 pm
So Comf,
Muscles are hot. Just sayin’.
jm
August 24th, 2010
12:20 pm
For anyone else that wants to trade in facts and not BS, here’s the link:
http://www.doe.k12.ga.us/ci_testing.aspx?PageReq=CI_TESTING_CRCT
System wide test scores are halfway down on the right. You can pull up 2010 and others as well.
Southern Comfort
August 24th, 2010
12:22 pm
Matti
Too much of anything is not good for you. Having to carry around 245lbs in addition to all the gear I have to wear at work is beginning to take a toll on the knees. I figure if I can get down to 200lbs, then the extra 10-15lbs of equipment won’t hurt nearly as much. Of course, I’ll still have to tone everything up.
@@
August 24th, 2010
12:23 pm
@@@:
I’m not saying that improprieties didn’t occur. What I’m saying is the members who sat on our BofE were more focused on going after each other than they were in educating our student body.
As far as SACS goes…I’m of the opinion that somebody needs to set goals, otherwise, schools will strive for the lowest possible standard allowed. It’s a human flaw.
I’ve seen it happen where I work(ed). New method introduced…learn thru play. BIG MISTAKE! The staff took it to mean that play, rather than learning thru, was the objective. Most didn’t want to put forth the effort to be creative. Took the easy way out, they did.
Once the school administrator realized my predictions were accurate, things changed. Learning can be fun, but it takes effort on the part of teachers.
I’m done here.
Saul Good
August 24th, 2010
12:24 pm
SoCo….walk…and then(when up to it)…run…every single day! 2-3 miles walking burns the SAME amount of calories as running them does. It just takes a bit longer. IF you take a two mile walk everyday for 2 weeks in the AM..your body will get just as “addicted” to it as it is if you drink coffee.
Really…
Southern Comfort
August 24th, 2010
12:35 pm
Saul
I’ve been walking between 2-4 miles a day. I cut out my trips to the gym for a while, but still walking and running. I’ve done as much as 6 miles walking and 3 running. I’m to the point that I need to punch more holes in my belts now, but I’ve still got a ways to go. I may stop at 220 depending on how the knees like it. I don’t wanna look like a crack addict.
Hillbilly Deluxe
August 24th, 2010
12:42 pm
Gov. Sonny Perdue chose wisely and well.
Even a blind hog can find the trough, now and again. Not sure Mike Bowers is the person to judge somebody else for cheating, though.
Saul Good
August 24th, 2010
12:52 pm
SoCo..good for you! I do mean what I said above…keep doing it until it (running/walking/hiking) becomes an addiction. Not sure if you’ve crossed that “line” just yet (where your body NEEDS it daily)… but hey…you’ve seen the results. I bet you feel better about yourself.
Not sure how tall you are…but “crackhead looking” status probably starts at about 160 if you’re 5′10″ and over.
RW-(the original)
August 24th, 2010
1:05 pm
You regularly alter other people’s blog names to get your digs in (sfb instead of sfd, AmWet, etc.)
Well sfb is sort of play on his multiple names of the past and it isn’t to get a dig in, but if stands for decibels has asked Bruno to be his spokesman and is requesting a new abbreviation I’ll certainly comply. As for the AmWet accusation it sounds like another lie to me.
Larry
August 24th, 2010
2:10 pm
Similar to private industry, if you place enough emphasis on achieving a certain result (in this case raising test scores) sooner or later some will find a way to achieve the desired result one way or another. If they can’t teach them, let’s just alter the grade. This is nothing more than an extension of the “social promotion” phenomenom that has been going on for years. When was the last time you heard of a kid being held back because they couldn’t pass? Have we genetically altered our kids so they can achieve or have we improved the level of teaching so that even the slow and challenged can learn or have we merely altered our values?
killerj
August 24th, 2010
2:35 pm
Federal money at their disposal,lots of it.
Paulo977
August 24th, 2010
3:09 pm
jm …. they have you ,don’t they?
Experts? Ha!
Harry Callahan
August 24th, 2010
3:57 pm
Link to NY Times survey…
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/04/15/us/politics/15poll.html
Harry Callahan
August 24th, 2010
4:00 pm
Hey, memo to “Normal” amd “USinIK”, I see you guys in the first few posts here making fun of the supposed low intelligence of Tea Party members, and in fact high-fiving each other over your wittiness and cleverness. BUT…according to a NY Times survey, Tea party members are quite a bit wealthier and more educated on average than the general population…and, no doubt, WAY wealthier and more educated than a couple of hopeless liberals like you two. LOL
great jm
August 24th, 2010
4:12 pm
jm wants to come on here and brag about APS’s biggest drop in the state scores on the CRCT and call that a justification for APS and Dr. Hall?
Great job jm!
Bob
August 24th, 2010
5:06 pm
I have to take Hall’s side on this one, it seems she is head of the curve. If you look at the jobs situation today the only new field opneing up is going to work for the feds as an Ebonics translator. About 90% of the 50% that actually graduate from APS are ready to hit the ground running.
mmm, mmm, mmm, Barack the Liar Obama - BEND OVER, Here comes the CHANGE!
August 24th, 2010
6:47 pm
Such a peaceful religion: mmm, mmm, mmm….
Deadly Attack in Somalia Is Latest by al-Qaida Ally
Employee
August 24th, 2010
8:29 pm
It is all about making targets and AYP. Yes she created the culture of cheating. The pressure on the schools is tremendous to produce
John Sam
August 26th, 2010
8:39 pm
APS…A False Path of Success without Honesty and Integrity
Will someone finally unravel the real problems within Atlanta Public Schools?
I believe APS RETALIATION against any individual attempting to file a grievance and report wrong doing by their superiors in Atlanta Public Schools is the REAL PROBLEM.
Current investigations need to include former APS employees attempting to use the APS Office of Internal Resolutions. They are the scapegoats in this horse and pony show. Allegations of cheating on standardized tests do not expose the other areas APS officials have so disgracefully “cheated”. The intimidation tactics APS uses in their fake investigations and retaliatory grievance processes have set the ground work for Beverly Hall’s current headache.
Is Governor Perdue’s creation of a state investigation yet another “mock investigation” that covers up the unethical conduct of APS teachers, principals, and administrators for misused funds, falsification of records, and hidden segregation?
The State Professional Standards Commission has been given past reports of unethical APS conduct that have been rightfully reported and later expunged on the basis of “who knows who” in the underground railroad of the Northside Good Ole Boy System. Their ongoing scam can only be compared to the brainwashed, blind eyed minds of Hitler’s Regime.
SOMEBODY with ethics needs to look at the video recorded depositions along with sworn testimonies in a 2004 federal lawsuit. The testimonies of teachers and administrators in this case exposed APS officials and a Northside Principal for falsifying payroll documents, attendance documents, the segregation of minority students, and the misrepresentation of documents to qualify a school for a Blue Ribbon School of Excellence Award…it’s all recorded in the testimonies of Civil Action File No. 1:03-CV-03178-JOF.
APS officials participated in a relentless campaign of retaliation against teachers at a Northside Elementary School willing to step up to the corruption they observed by filing APS grievances. Ironically, APS documents clearly stated they would protect those involved in requesting internal investigations.
APS has an ongoing history of retaliation against anyone that would question any of their procedures. Ask any former Atlanta Public School Employee. FORMER…because current APS employees know all too well they will lose their jobs if they speak up.
The 2004 depositions clearly demonstrate proof that the same State Rules of Ethics for APS administrators on the Southside of city… do not apply to the APS adminstrators on the Northside of Atlanta.
APS OFFICIALS AND THE PROFESSIONAL STANDARDS COMMISSION ignored reports and the video taped depositions that proved the following acts were committed by a Northside APS principal:
* Payroll records to obtain a paycheck for the principal’s daughter for almost a year.
* Falsified attendance records of faculty and students.
* Retaliation against teachers willing to report and testify against APS
* Falsified information to obtain a Blue Ribbon School Award.
* Segregation of minority students in Northside Atlanta Public Schools
* Falsified criteria and dates for Bonus Paychecks paid to faculty members.
Considering that this particular Northside APS elementary website states that their PTA could ” run Washington, DC “, it is no wonder the connected neighborhood can keep their powerful strong arm when negotiating unethical conduct of their principals to Atlanta Public School officials.
Should the Southside not enjoy the same benefit of corruption?
Beverly Hall, Kathy Augustine, and the APS comptroller will need the higher tax base and prominence of the Northside’s privileged to save their current positions. These APS high-ranking officials have been covering up the Northside secrets in exchange for political favors for years.
The malicious acts of this Northside principal were ignored by APS and PSC officials when there was clearly evidence that deserved their attention.
Will these acts of cheating on standardized tests receive an equal blind eye?
My hope is that finally, the truth will emerge so the Professional Standards Commission and Atlanta Public School Grievance Procedures provide a safety net for any one wishing to report wrong doing within the school’s system.
My fear is that the entire system…from Sonny Perdue’s State Office of Investigations, the Professional Standards Commission, and the Office of Internal Resolutions within APS will continue with their selective witch hunts to the detriment of the “success” of our education system.
In Beverly Hall’s own words she states, “Could you cheat in all these schools?” adding, ” You would have to spend your whole life cheating…It’s been nine years of consistent progress.”
History has proven Hall’s similar LEADERSHIP tactics of FEAR, INTIMIDATION AND RETALIATION. Will the governor peel back the layers that expose this corruption? Or will he fall in line with the Third Reich?
Hide and watch.