Wilson, Bowers good choices to probe school testing scandal
Gov. Sonny Perdue chose wisely and well.
Bob Wilson and Michael Bowers, appointed last week by Perdue to lead an investigation into cheating scandals in public schools in Atlanta and Dougherty County, are experienced prosecutors. Perhaps more importantly in this context, they have also proved to be persons of good judgment, capable of sifting truth from fiction and the important from the inconsequential in what promises to be a complicated probe.
So far, previous investigations have been able to document only that cheating occurred. Armed with subpoena authority and the resources to investigate fully, Bowers and Wilson may be able to dig deeper, getting at the important questions of how the cheating happened and why.
But it’s unfortunate it had to come to this. The appointment of Wilson and Bowers is necessary because for at least the second time in this scandal, local leaders have proved more interested in protecting their institutions and their reputations than in getting at the truth. Their defensiveness and reluctance to look too closely have ended up compounding the very damage that they seek to avoid.
Here in Atlanta, Superintendent Beverly Hall and others vigorously dispute such assertion, arguing that they have responded as quickly and as aggressively as the facts allow.
In several important regards, that is undeniably true.
In Atlanta, testing security has been strengthened considerably in the wake of the scandal, and principals of the dozen schools implicated most strongly in the cheating scandal have been reassigned to other duties. Their names and those of almost 100 other school employees have also been submitted to the state for possible disciplinary action.
As Hall told the AJC last week, she has no patience with those who cheat. Any educators who altered test results “have done a terrible disservice to the children and Atlanta Public Schools, and that is a disgrace,” she said.
Certainly, the individuals who cheated or tolerated cheating by others deserve to be identified and punished. It is also true that, based on the limited evidence then available, APS officials could not have moved more aggressively against suspected staff members without compromising their right to due process and fair treatment.
However, individual responsibility represents just one aspect of the problem. As her statement above suggests, Hall has been steadfast in trying to depict the scandal as a simple series of moral failings by the individuals involved. People of integrity, she has said repeatedly, would not have cheated under any circumstances.
Hall has also pointed out repeatedly — and accurately — that there is no evidence of a broad, organized conspiracy. But that does not exhaust the range of issues that this scandal has brought to the surface.
Among the questions that Bowers and Wilson will try to answer is whether the problem was indeed limited to a dozen schools, as APS officials claim, or whether it was more widespread, as state officials suggest. Even if the lesser number proves accurate, we are left with the reality that widespread cheating occurred in a dozen schools involving more than 100 APS employees, a far more extensive problem than in any other system in the state.
Why?
That’s the question that Hall refuses to even entertain.
Personally, I can think of only two explanations: Either APS hired employees who are more prone than others to cheat, or it placed its employees in an environment in which cheating was deemed acceptable or even necessary. Either way, responsibility for creating such problems would lie at the top of the chain of command.
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251 comments Add your comment
paleo-neo-Carlinist
August 24th, 2010
9:33 am
folks, public education is no different than public safety (police and fire), or any of the public services offered by local governments; it is not possible to protect every citizen agains crime, fire, etc. and yet politicians campaign on public safety platforms (courting the support of police and firefighter unions, as opposed to citizens). it is not possible to “educate” every child. Judge Schmales wasn’t much of a golfer, but he was correct when he told Danny; “…the world needs ditch diggers, too!”
AmVet
August 24th, 2010
9:33 am
stands, you know the routine. Why bother with factual, cogent and intellectually honest discourse when hyperbolic rhetoric is o much easier?
As for that book being “excellent” I’ll leave it up to others to run interference for that heinous, hate-filled hag.
CO, good points. Perhaps Bowers was in the initial graduating class and had some alternatives not afforded later graduates…
RW-(the original)
August 24th, 2010
9:34 am
the perfect reply
Always nice to see the level at which one believes they’ve achieved perfection, but that’s got to be one of the lowest bars I’ve ever seen someone set for themselves.
Now I really must go and please try to refrain from changing my words and then putting them in quotes. I swear you and Brunos are like Siamese twins.
jm
August 24th, 2010
9:37 am
Jay, I think you missed a key point. I’m not a huge fan of Hall, but I think she’s done a lot of good. It is also possible that because there was more emphasis, focus, and financial reward tied to testing scores, that the “higher pressure” environment led more teachers to cheat.
The solution obviously isn’t to back off the testing, but to ensure third party oversight of the testing. But I don’t think Hall is necessarily a culprit or even responsible except to the extent that she doesn’t root out the problem and punish those who cheated. On the first count, I think she has corrected the problem with testing. On the second she obviously gets a “C” or worse.
AmVet
August 24th, 2010
9:39 am
paleo,
Well said, and don’t forget another great quote about that paragon of jurisprudence, “Don’t sell yourself short, judge. You’re a heckuva slouch.”
A post about 9/11 families and then that quote. Yes, what an enormous stretch! I find it utterly misguided and silly to even take umbrage with it as na example.
And I can see why you make the comparison. Bruno, generally uses a plethora of facts, data, evidence, links and corroboratable (?) sources to bolster his position.
A position, that by definition, does not sit well with rhetoricians.
Besides as the Dude said, “This injustice cannot stand!”
jm
August 24th, 2010
9:39 am
Let me clarify: there may have been more emphasis on testing scores and financial compensation than any other school district in the state. I don’t know this for a fact. I’m speculating. But its possible.
It would be nice if Jay or someone else investigated this further. Obviously its clear that the teachers can’t be trusted to administer the tests, and thankfully this has been fixed.
Curious Observer
August 24th, 2010
9:39 am
“These challenges are real,” Biden told the [2010] graduates, who were about to accept their commissions as Navy ensigns and Marine Corps lieutenants, and in one case, as an Army officer. “But every generation has faced challenges. And just like those who came before you, you will prevail.”
While it’s rare for a cadet to cross service lines, it still happens, and the choice is still available.
paleo-neo-Carlinist
August 24th, 2010
9:41 am
RW, I guess the neo-con “excellence” bar is lower than I thought. don’t get me wrong, at 4:30 AM, after a night of drinking, a sack of Krystals and a 24 oz. Dr. Pepper is “excellent”. I guess, it truly is about context. Coulture is a pathetic one trick pony.
Saul Good
August 24th, 2010
9:41 am
“My profs were more interested in seeing what we could do with information rather than seeing how much we could memorize.”
I can agree with that to a degree. Yet there is a certain amount of knowledge that one must possess in order to “get to the next level”… as a musician…it’s pretty important that one understands the values of the notes, scales, chord structure, etc to be able to perform a piece of music. And on the other hand… there are always the “Brittney Spears” of the world….
Saul Good
August 24th, 2010
9:44 am
“Judge Schmales wasn’t much of a golfer, but he was correct when he told Danny; “…the world needs ditch diggers, too!”
Yup…but those ditch diggers need to know WHERE to dig the hole and at times…know where the underground water and power lines are BEFORE they dig that ditch!
Bruno
August 24th, 2010
9:45 am
“As someone who has invested heavily in Atlanta by moving intown and planning to send my kids to APS schools (the only way a family can afford to live intown), this better get fixed NOW with as little collateral damage as possible.”
Intowner–Your best hope is to move into josef nix’s school district. I just left a job on the southside, and had several APS teachers as clients. To a person, they were all dumb as dirt themselves.
Matti
August 24th, 2010
9:45 am
Bruno,
I would really like to hear from everyone ideas of how to improve education. The youngest generation coming up aren’t impressing me at all.
I know I’m biased, but I am personally acquainted with many astoundingly smart, engaged, conscientious young people who are embarking on their quest for higher education in some of America’s top schools. They’re certainly not the majority, but they do exist and give me reason to hope.
The reality is, the quality and success of a school is directly related to the level of parental and community involvement. Tax dollars barely cover the minimum (if you call less than what’s needed the minimum.) Show me a successful school and I’ll show you two or three dozen parents who bust their behinds fundraising for sports, computers, and all manner of “extra cirriculars” — which many think are unnecessary, but are exactly what keep children engaged and interested, an essential factor in academic success. The schools in economically challenged neighborhoods often suffer because (a) they don’t have as much money, and (b) parents are too busy scraping out a living to be bothered with the school, or (c) parents in the neighborhood have no concept of what’s possible, because nobody showed them when they were young.
Yes, yes, yes, math and science, but it’s the rare student who can’t wait to come to school for math class. Music, art, sports, and such that are often poo-poo’ed as indulgent do indeed engage and encouarge children to try, participate, and find some joy in their day. Life lessons matter, and are found outside of textbooks. One of those lessons is: don’t ignore the books! Further, from what I’ve seen, they could ALL do with a little more PE.
Bosch
August 24th, 2010
9:46 am
Bruno,
“but I would really like to hear from everyone ideas of how to improve education”
Unfortunately, the ones best equipped to answer that question are now teaching our kids and working 10-12 hour days.
please stop the spin jm
August 24th, 2010
9:47 am
“But I don’t think Hall is necessarily a culprit or even responsible except to the extent that she doesn’t root out the problem and punish those who cheated.”
jm, when you have largest falsification of discipline numbers in the state, 40 schools reporting ZERO discipline problems and the official response from the Hall regime is “…our reforms are working so well, there are no discipline problems to report…” you want us to believe Hall is not the culprit?
When she hires Penn Payne to say in an official report there is no evidence that APS cheated, you want us to believe Hall isn’t the culprit? When people start putting excerpts from the report on the AJC blogs showing that Payne admitted she has no expertise in erasure analysis, and didn’t even view the tests in question and the report suddenly disappears from the APS website a couple of hours later after, you want us to believe Hall isn’t the culprit?
Please.
godless heathen
August 24th, 2010
9:48 am
Gosh, where did I ever get the impression that anyone that opposed the construction of the not a mosque not at ground zero was being characterized as a neanderthal neocon?
If the murderous Islamists call themselves Islamists , it would be disrespectful for the media to not also call them Islamists.
ty webb
August 24th, 2010
9:48 am
“but to ensure third party oversight of the testing”. Great idea! Maybe the APS could contract out these 3rd party overseers. Afterall, if they’re anything like the City of Atlanta, I’m pretty sure there are plenty of cousins and relatives who need jobs…oh, and “neocon”(for Amvet).
Kamchak
August 24th, 2010
9:48 am
Jay seems to be a better at keeping the trolls under the bridge…
I certainly wish he would share his methods with his colleague next door, as I was called out for a name-jacker’s antics.
A name-jacker that pulled the same stunts on this site the night before Jay left for vacation.
itpdude
August 24th, 2010
9:52 am
This is not saying the cheating was right; it was not right to cheat on these tests.
But something that is being ignored is WHY the C of A schools felt the NEED to cheat.
The CRCT is not that difficult. In fact, it’s a cake-walk. . . . for students who’ve actually been showing up at school, doing the most basic of tasks (like staying awake in class), and not simply getting passed along from grade to grade and made the next level’s problem.
The students in the C of A are not as well prepared to take such a test as their counter-parts in other parts of the state. This is for several reasons and we would do well to investigate and recognize these reasons rather than go on some witch-hunt for desperate teachers and administrators who cheated out of sheer desperation.
Gale
August 24th, 2010
9:54 am
“The world needs ditch diggers too.” For the most part, I agree with the idea of pathing students from 12 years old. I think it can provide a better learning experience. What we as a society must move beyond is the idea that only those who go to college are worthy of respect. Even when I was in school in the 60s and vo-ed was still prevalent, the vocational students were looked down on. I can’t tell you the number of dim bulb college degrees I work with every day.
Bruno
August 24th, 2010
9:54 am
“Now I really must go and please try to refrain from changing my words and then putting them in quotes. I swear you and Brunos are like Siamese twins.”
“And I can see why you make the comparison. Bruno, generally uses a plethora of facts, data, evidence, links and corroboratable (?) sources to bolster his position. A position, that by definition, does not sit well with rhetoricians.”
You know, AmVet, the funny thing about RW’s charge is that each time I made the effort to find his original quotes, they were almost verbatim to what I quoted, yet he still claimed that I misrepresented him. And each time, I gave him the opportunity to clarify what he intended to say in case I was misunderstanding him, and each time he refused. I’m not versed enough in psychology to understand why someone would choose to be an @@sshole when a simple clarification would suffice, but to each his/her own I guess.
stands for decibels
August 24th, 2010
9:55 am
Google’s got Godless available to view. You can see for yourself what an excellent book it is.
I did a search for “Jersey Girls” therein. The “tiny fraction” of time spent on these 9/11 widows, whom Ms. Coulter refers to variously as “broads,” “increasingly rabid,” “weeping widows,” “witches of East Brunswick” and one of their spokespeople as an “all-purpose scold,” only occurs on pages 103, 108, 111, 282, 284, 289 and 292.
Doggone/GA
August 24th, 2010
9:56 am
“we would do well to investigate and recognize these reasons rather than go on some witch-hunt for desperate teachers and administrators who cheated out of sheer desperation.”
In some cases though, that might be a circular argument. It remains to be seen what comes of the investigation, but I can envision that at least SOME teachers might be desperate because they are not GOOD teachers and were not able to motivate their students to learn, thereby leading to a “desperate” need to cheat on the tests.
Granny Godzilla
August 24th, 2010
9:57 am
Kamchak
I knew it wasn’t you…..
Peadawg
August 24th, 2010
9:58 am
“as I was called out for a name-jacker’s antics.”
It was probably one of your squirrels getting back at you for using them all the time for your fetish fun.
Matti
August 24th, 2010
9:59 am
As a parent, I believe NCLB standardized testing is part of the problem. Teachers spend WEEKS “teaching to the test.” That means repetition and memorization, not teaching the children to think and analyze. The smarter kids are beyond bored and tune out. The kids who need the extra prep time learn to memorize and repeat. You cannot teach children everything they need to know in the world — they MUST learn to think. I understand that testing is necessary form of measurement, no doubt. But the way it’s implemented these days, it often comes at the expense of education.
AmVet
August 24th, 2010
9:59 am
For you neo-cons (hat tip Ron Paul): “Political demagoguery rules when truth and liberty are ignored.”
Kamchak, I was just thinking that between the end of the Bookman diaspora and the regular “contributions” of those intellectual giants and emotionally restrained stalwarts such as Grand Forks, No More Progressives, the cowards/mystery meats, ad infinitum, ad nauseum, Wingfield’s totals are going to go right back to minuscule levels.
Which is exactly what some of the faithful want here – to see this forum devolve into a far right wing trash heap…
HDB
August 24th, 2010
10:00 am
People have asked what would make the education process improve; having been educated by APS….and having my mother be a 44-yr veteran of APS, here’s my take on this:
1) Quit teaching to pass the test….teach the course for knowledge! If the student can pass the in-class exams….the standardized testing should be OK
2) Create an alternate track for some students….rather than all working towards collegiate focus, create a technical/vocational environment as well as collegiate
3) Allow teachers and principals to invoke discipline in the classroom; remove those who refuse to abide
4) Create alternate schools for those who have problems with the traditional methodology…..particularly those with learning disabilities
5) Insure that an adequate funding source is maintained…and that equivalent spending per school is maintained
6) Create a cooperative environment whereas parental involvement works in conjunction with the teaching application
7) Optimize the use of technology in the educational process
If all this is done, our children can and WOULD be educated……just as we were in the day!!!
Midori
August 24th, 2010
10:00 am
Finn: http://www.thedailyshow.com/watch/mon-august-23-2010/the-parent-company-trap
jed
August 24th, 2010
10:00 am
As per Jay Bookman’s earlier blog————————
“I can remember a time when American conservatives argued vehemently that there could only be one truth, THE truth. It was a foundation stone in the conservative philosophy. The counter notion that truth was instead a relative concept, that one person’s concept of truth could be as valid as the next person’s, was dismissed as soft-headed liberalism. Sadly, that is now ancient history.”
Jay states that conservatives are as soft-headed as liberals in accepting the premise that all “truth” is ” relevant”.
So how could a test be cheated on? There are no RIGHT answers.
please stop the spin jm
August 24th, 2010
10:00 am
“It would be nice if Jay or someone else investigated this further. Obviously its clear that the teachers can’t be trusted to administer the tests, and thankfully this has been fixed.”
Thank you for showing your ignorance on this particular issue jm. The ONLY people to have been sanctioned in the cheating scandal in the state so far are two school administrators, NOT teachers.
As multiple people have reported, by FAR the most likely candidates to have the time and unfettered access to the tests to make the number of erasure marks recorded are administrators, not teachers.
Even if some teachers were involved it is highly unlikely that they could have gained access to the tests for the sheer amount of time needed to do this without an administrator granting them that access after the tests were “signed in”.
Bosch
August 24th, 2010
10:00 am
Doggone,
Not sure how it is in all schools, simply going on personal experience, but many times the best teachers seem to get the worst kids.
Southern Comfort
August 24th, 2010
10:00 am
My profs were more interested in seeing what we could do with information rather than seeing how much we could memorize.
I’ve never quite understood why education wants to put so much emphasis on memorization. When you start on a job, there is usually an ojt period where you learn how to do things the company way. They don’t expect you to come in and already know how to do things from memory based on what you learned in school. Granted, you should at least know the basics, but most jobs give you the training necessary to do the job.
Bosch
August 24th, 2010
10:01 am
Doggone,
And yes, I know that seems a bit hard to evaluate as to how the measure the “best teacher” — but it’s just personal observation.
Matti
August 24th, 2010
10:02 am
HDB at 10:00,
Excellent list!!
Kamchak
August 24th, 2010
10:03 am
Granny Godzilla
Thank you for that. I saw your supporting comments yesterday to Ms. Tucker.
I enjoy the freedom of the AJC sites from creating a sign-in account, but what I experienced yesterday is beginning to change my mind.
jm
August 24th, 2010
10:08 am
please stop the spin – I assume you’re referring to Hall, not me, since I don’t have a dog in this fight one way or the other, except that I care immensely about our state and city’s future.
At any rate, like I said, at minimum Hall is not the miracle worker she thought she might have been. However, I have a hard time believing that someone would work as hard as she has (with some failures) over 10 years to turn the schools around (with reasonably significant success, albeit helped by the replacement of housing projects in the city with mixed income), only to find out she’s really the Bernie Madoff of school systems.
I think she’s delusional with respect to the teachers, and probably too full of herself, but that happens with people that get too much applause generally.
I think she’s really helped turn the schools around in Atlanta, relative to where they were 10 years ago. She needs to wrap up the next year or two and we need to get someone new in the drivers seat. Preferably Michelle Rhee.
Kamchak
August 24th, 2010
10:08 am
It was probably one of your squirrels getting back at you for using them all the time for your fetish fun.
No Peadawg.
It was probably you, as you were the one caught name-jacking over there.
Southern Comfort
August 24th, 2010
10:08 am
Kamchak
That’s why I kinda keep to Jay’s blog. There’s a bit more decorum here, and Jay stays on top of things like that.
HDB
August 24th, 2010
10:09 am
Matti August 24th, 2010
10:02 am
Thanks…..almost forgot…
9) Change the grading system to 3-or-4 levels: A, B, and F…or A,B,C,F!!
10) Create a business/educational partnership to create mentorships for students……set the example as to where an education can take one!!
11) Create high school internships so that students can have work EXPERIENCE and create a work ETHIC!!
I had examples like this that led me to desiring a college education; all the students in MY high school were EXPECTED to graduate college — nothing less was acceptable!! Schools need to go back to that focus…..
Notice
August 24th, 2010
10:10 am
Ever notice, and it happens in so many walks of life, when a leader treats those under him/her with respect, and that leader faces a crisis, the rank and file will speak out on the leader’s behalf?
Notice how few if any of the rank and file are speaking out on behalf of Hall? What does that say about the corporate culture of APS and how they treat employees? Think that might have a detrimental effect on how students are treated?
Peadawg
August 24th, 2010
10:10 am
“No Peadawg.”
Have they forgiven you now? How the therapy session go?
“It was probably you, as you were the one caught name-jacking over there.”
I did it to Cynthia once. Don’t believe me? Tell her to check the IP addresses. That’ll solve this real fast.
Gale
August 24th, 2010
10:11 am
I sure agree with the Bookman regulars regarding Tucker’s bloggers. It gets nasty over there. We rarely see such nastiness here even when the topic does get heated.
jm
August 24th, 2010
10:12 am
You know, if people didn’t have such stupid short term memories, people would be taking a more balanced view on Hall. For people who know and can remember what APS looked like 10 years ago, Hall has accomplished an immense amount. I’ve lived here since 2000. I live in the city, not the burbs or somewhere else, so I’ve seen these schools improve physically and operationally.
There are obviously some corrupt teachers and principals who need to be immediately fired. The testing procedures needed to, and have been, corrected. And Hall needs to wrap up her tenure and work hard to find a very good replacement (along with the Mayor and the school board).
But to conclude that Hall is an abject failure is to be just wrong. If you look where APS was 10 years ago, we’ve made a lot of progress and Hall deserves at least a significant portion of that credit…. (the balance going to the AHA and the business community).
Bruno
August 24th, 2010
10:13 am
“The schools in economically challenged neighborhoods often suffer because (a) they don’t have as much money, and (b) parents are too busy scraping out a living to be bothered with the school, or (c) parents in the neighborhood have no concept of what’s possible, because nobody showed them when they were young.”
The only problem with the “not enough money” theory, Matti, is that many of the worst performing school systems nationwide (e.g. Washington DC) spend far more per pupil than the best performing school systems (e.g. South Dakota). Here in the metro area, the APS spends far more per pupil than either Cobb or Gwinnett, with little to show for it. Parental involvement is part of it, and I think plain lack of IQ accounts for the rest.
http://www.epodunk.com/top10/per_pupil/
“Unfortunately, the ones best equipped to answer that question are now teaching our kids and working 10-12 hour days.”
Sometimes, Bosch, an outsider can offer a more valid opinion than an insider.
Saul Good
August 24th, 2010
10:14 am
HDB: “5) Insure that an adequate funding source is maintained…and that equivalent spending per school is maintained”
Now that’s something I’ve ALWAYS been preaching… but overall…all you said was true and correct. Great post!
Matti
August 24th, 2010
10:16 am
HDB,
Raise the expectations of our students; mediocrity is NOT acceptable!
PREACH IT! I embraced this from the moment I gave birth. (Actually whispered subliminal messages to sleeping baby…. I know, a bit obssessive.) I cannot for the life of me understand why every parent and teacher does not LIVE this mantra. I don’t think I exert excessive pressure — balance is important! — but I always encourage the children to have a sense of pride and reach for the top, (never the middle) of any endeavor. Nobody is going to be good at everything, but people who do well in school have more choices in life, and people who have choices are the ones who can do something that they enjoy and be happy! Those who don’t reach don’t have choices, and frankly, have to take what they can get later on.
HDB
August 24th, 2010
10:18 am
Bruno August 24th, 2010
10:13 am
“Here in the metro area, the APS spends far more per pupil than either Cobb or Gwinnett, with little to show for it. Parental involvement is part of it, and I think plain lack of IQ accounts for the rest.”
Let’s agree on some parts of this:
1) There are some that shift the curve downward in all systems
2) Some students are NOT good test takers…but are good in application
3) Some teachers can NOT teach in the traditional methodology
4) Some students can not LEARN using the traditional paradigm…..
If we make the proper adjustments…..we all can improve the educational system……
It’s not ALL in the IQ….but methodology AND parental involvement!!
AmVet
August 24th, 2010
10:18 am
Bruno, two thoughts on the matter.
First, you noted almost immediately that a tiny few “warned” you to avoid me. As though you were not properly capable of drawing your own conclusions about someone based on what you read. Now if this is not the definition of puerile, I’m not sure what qualifies.
Also heretofore, though I’ve remained completely silent on the topic you speak of, I noted closely those interactions. And trust me, outside of some ideologically like-minded hyper-partisans, I doubt that anyone would disagree with the truthfulness of what you state. You are not alone in dealing with his odd penchant for circular reasoning and being a master of the five rules of dodgeball.
I had almost identical experiences as you described years ago at Luckovich’s and in short order, gave up.
Someone makes an unfounded claim that left-wingers were exploiting 9/11 families (slightly paraphrased) and I responded with an irrefutably correct quote from an enormously popular darling of the right wing with and I’m called out for it.
Go figure.
Juan Mo time: “Political demagoguery rules when truth and liberty are ignored.”
paleo-neo-Carlinist
August 24th, 2010
10:21 am
Saul, just to be clear, I think the Caddyshack folks were commenting on the value of “education” vs. “class” in terms of the real world (1981).
RW-(the original)
August 24th, 2010
10:22 am
Bruno,
You’ve managed to come up with one quote ever that you seem to rely on every time you lie about what I’ve said. Yesterday when you lied about my mosque position I spelled it out for about the tenth time. You ignored it and now once again say I refuse to clarify my positions. You’re certainly free to call me names and lie about me as long as Jay B allows you to, but I would think you would just ignore me.
sfb,
Are you familiar with the “afterword” and “footnote” sections of books? Four of the pages you reference come in those sections and there was a big honking clue right on the cover of the book you linked to showing that the afterword was not from the original release.
TaxPayer
August 24th, 2010
10:22 am
Ouch! Existing home sales took a nose dive. Not to worry though. I hear there will be a good turnout for both buyers and sellers on the courthouse steps come september.
tommytwotone
August 24th, 2010
10:23 am
Jay, write another column about how the economy is improving and how much the Obama stimulus “saved the day”. Should be a hoot.
Normal
August 24th, 2010
10:25 am
I did it to Cynthia once. Don’t believe me? Tell her to check the IP addresses. That’ll solve this real fast.
That has no substance since Ms. Tucker in on vacation, but I bet you knew that, right?
Matti
August 24th, 2010
10:25 am
Bruno,
I agree that money alone is not sufficient. It’s HOW the money is spent that matters! One-size-fits-all is not the best approach. If a district is spending twice per pupil and getting half the results, then it’s time for some serious analysis and reallocation. Simply slashing the budget is not the answer.
Also, I have to agree with previous posts on the importance of non-college-track education. Not every kid wants to or can handle traditional college. Meaningful options for them are slim, yet they still need practical and life skills in order to make their way in the world. Too many are flung out there unprepared, and that’s a waste. Everybody is good at something, and to have a successful economy, we need to encourage people to seek their potential and have some pride. The cycle of discouragement is bad for all of us.
HDB
August 24th, 2010
10:27 am
@ Saul Good and Matti: Thanks…..
For me, it’s not a liberal or conservative ideology….it’s what has worked for me!! I was blessed to have a mother who was a teacher…family who generated HIGH expectations, mentors who were the examples as to where I needed to be…..and confidence instilled by a great support system to reach to all the gusto I could!! the word “NO” just meant that I had the think that I was from Missouri: “I’ll SHOW YOU!”
In this time, some kids don’t have that support….and somehow, that has to be created!!
Another thing: Teacher HAVE to be free to teach those who they see have great potential!! The problem with this is that there are LEGAL implications that MUST be connfronted. Imagine a male teacher seeing potential in a group of female students….and he becomes their mentor!! The possibility of an ACCUSATION of sexual impropriety WILL rear its head. Understand why there is a dearth of male teachers…THAT’S why!! I heard of a male teacher in Iowa falsely accused….took him SIX YEARS to clear his name!! The converse is also true….with female teachers and male students!! Got to address that too!!
paleo-neo-Carlinist
August 24th, 2010
10:29 am
HDB, while I suspect Judge Schmales observation was more arrogance than altruism, I think he would agree with #2. there’s nothing wrong with technical/vocational training. ever see an auto mechanic “go to work” when a Buckhead homemaker pulls into the shop in a $40,000.00 SUV? we have too many bankers and lawyers all trying to get rich shuffling paper, while competent tree surgeons, a/c repairmen and electricians are hard to find.
TaxPayer
August 24th, 2010
10:29 am
I just hope that these poor kids don’t end up with teachers that tell them that deficits don’t matter while they’re running them up and that they do matter when someone else is running them up. What kind of message does that send to the young and impressionable.
paleo-neo-Carlinist
August 24th, 2010
10:31 am
Kamchack, no worries, re: name-jacking. just slap a neo or paleo onto your nomme de blog and stay one step ahead (or is it behind) the cowardly name-jackers. does anyone know the Sharia law penalty for name-jacking?
@@
August 24th, 2010
10:32 am
Don’t forget:
If believing that embryos have one intended purpose is lacking in compassion, then so be it.
There are others ways that a person can show compassion, but my guess is…those don’t count in your good book.
@@
August 24th, 2010
10:33 am
Sorry! My 10:32 was intended for downstairs.
Bruno
August 24th, 2010
10:34 am
“As though you were not properly capable of drawing your own conclusions about someone based on what you read.”
AmVet–At this point in life, I judge people primarily by their heart. And I’ve learned along the way that the more effort someone puts into telling you how great of a person they are (i.e. what a great “Christian” they are), the more you need to avoid them. At the other extreme, most of the greatest people I’ve met are very self-deprecating. Without naming any names, that correlation holds true here on the blog.
Saul Good
August 24th, 2010
10:35 am
Food for thought…
I decided to look at my own School District where I attended HS… only because I believe that ALL teachers and administrators should get comparable pay..and be held to the “same” level when it comes to results. So I ask…does paying teachers MORE and holding them to a higher level of accomplishments end up producing “better” students in the long run? Or…is it due to the parenting skills, and peer pressure to do well in school?
Here’s the link:
http://www.longislandschools.com/districts/great-neck-school-district.html
“Spending Per Student: $21,910
General Education Spending: $73,208,063
Special Education Spending: $24,991,235
Percent Spent On Instruction: 73.9%
Average Teacher Salary: $87,444
Student Dropout Rate: 0.2%
Students Receiving Reduced/Free Lunch: 12%
Students With Limited English Skills: 5.8%
Graduates Receiving Regents Diplomas: 92%
Graduates Receiving Advanced Diplomas: 74%
Notice the drop out rate? In my entire time in HS I knew of only “2″ kids that dropped out. Notice the “average” salary? In GA I believe it’s somewhere around $43K (correct me if I’m wrong)… yes this is only ONE school district I’m providing…but truth be told… nearly every kid I went to school with goes on to college. It was expected.
So was it our “parents” who instilled those values? Teachers? BETTER teachers because of what they got paid… I’d think that the salaries had little to do with it… parents and expectations of there kids DID have much to do with it…
Yet my point is that I have a problem with the fact that the teachers get paid SO much more. There are many, many teachers making 6 figures (including one of my best friends who is a math teacher on Long Island)…
Would offering “top salaries” that are competitive with what one can earn in the business world attract “better” teachers? Me? I believe that teaching is one of the most important jobs in society…so if we paid more across the board in every district in every state… would teaching become a “competitive” career and only get the BEST teachers?
Not sure myself…
HDB
August 24th, 2010
10:43 am
Saul Good August 24th, 2010
10:35 am
“Would offering “top salaries” that are competitive with what one can earn in the business world attract “better” teachers? Me? I believe that teaching is one of the most important jobs in society…so if we paid more across the board in every district in every state… would teaching become a “competitive” career and only get the BEST teachers?”
It would be a starting point; in some systems, starting saleries for teachers in $27K…..and look at the time put in: preparation, lesson plans, creation of exams, grading…..and then maintaining credentials/certification, additional courses, advancement criteria……
If you want to attract better teachers, try this:
1) Increase starting saleries to at least $32K
2) Tuition reimbursement for additional certifications/required courseloads/graduate courses
3) Academic bonuses for extra-educational pursuits that improve the educational paradigm (my mother assisted in the writing of most HS Biology books, being a member of BSCS (Biological Sciences Curriculum Study))….
That would work wonders………
@@
August 24th, 2010
10:45 am
AmVet:
Thbbppbbbttt!
First, you noted almost immediately that a tiny few “warned” you to avoid me. As though you were not properly capable of drawing your own conclusions about someone based on what you read. Now if this is not the definition of puerile, I’m not sure what qualifies.
BS!
Since I’m among “the tiny few”, clarification is in order.
I said Bruno was free to associate with whomever he pleased, but there was no point in trying to convince me you were someone other than who, I’ve come to know over the years.
jm
August 24th, 2010
10:45 am
HDB, if I may add to your list
1. Require a Masters Degree for every teacher
2. End tenure
3. Pay for performance – make bonus’ 25% or more of comp
This will get rid of all the do-nothing idiot teachers in neutral. And would be impossible because the union would fight it all the way….
Bosch
August 24th, 2010
10:47 am
Bruno,
Eh. Maybe for some things, but I tend to think the professionals in this business as in any business are better at implementing and evaluating improvements than say, those who blog about it — and remember, school boards are usually made up of folks who aren’t educators, per say.
Paul
August 24th, 2010
10:47 am
Normal 9:19
“I have read that and I completely disagree with that assement.
By stating that, he is declaring war on ALL of Islam. “
I don’t read it that way. I read it that there is a potent and dangerous element within Islam that views their true interpretation according to the jihadist/caliphate model. Authors like Walid Phares wrote about this long before 9-11 and not once did they say “they call themselves Muslim, but they aren’t.”
“Islam needs to be put out of the equation and tell the Middle East People we are fighting terrorists who hide under the mantel of Islam but are not true Muslims. “
I don’t mean this to sound combative, but that sounds rather condescending, for a nonMuslim, Westerner to tell someone who’s an imam or jihadist ‘you know, I’ve studied Islam and I’m here to tell you you aren’t really a Muslim.”
It rather strikes me in the same vein as what the Catholic Church said centuries ago to Martin Luther or Calvin or Henry: “you aren’t really Christians.”
paleo-neo
“American neo-Conservative (Islamic) extremists use perceived threats to their nation (religion) by Muslim and Mexicans (outsiders) to mobilize support for their political agenda (insurgency) and justify amending/ignoring the 1st and 14th Amendments to the Constitution (terrorist tactics)”. Sounds to me like Newt, Palin, et al are taking a page from the Islamofacist Playbook.”
Now if I can use other reasoning I’d have Chinese President Hu Jintao saying “I studied America and Christianity, and I declare these people aren’t really Americans and they aren’t really Christians.”
HDB
August 24th, 2010
10:48 am
Off-Topic…but….THIS is EXACTLY what laws like Arizona’s SB 1070 create…and it’s HERE!!
Lawsuit against Cobb police alleges racial profiling
“A 23-year-old Latino man has filed a lawsuit against the Cobb County Police Department claiming that two officers stopped him without cause, beat him and then jailed him on a pretext in an effort to get him deported.
The civil rights lawsuit filed in federal district court in Atlanta alleges that Angel Franciso Castro Torres was riding his bike on South Cobb Drive in unincorporated Smyrna on March 26 when he was stopped by Officers Jeremiah M. Lignitz and Brian J. Walraven. The lawsuit says the officers asked to see Castro’s identification and inquired about his immigration status. At some point during the stop, the lawsuit alleges, Lignitz also punched Castro, breaking his nose and eye socket.
Officers state that they noticed Castro riding his bicycle because he was wearing unspecified “gang attire.” ”
When you give the cops unfettered POWER…..remember Kathryn Johnston and Amadou Diallo!!
@@
August 24th, 2010
10:48 am
Oops! forgot to comment on the topic.
There’s no incentive…ABSOLUTELY NONE…that would encourage me to rob a child of their education.
Bosch
August 24th, 2010
10:48 am
“And would be impossible because the union would fight it all the way….”
Why must we do this everytime education gets brought up:
THERE ARE NO TEACHER UNIONS IN GEORGIA.
Thank you, now, continue with regularly schedule broadcasting.
HDB
August 24th, 2010
10:52 am
jm August 24th, 2010
10:45 am
1) There are no teachers’ union here in Georgia…so that’s unnecessary
2) Some pursuits don’t require a Masters’ Degree…but making it a desirable qualification — and rewarding someone for having it…would help!!
3) Pay for performance would work!
4) Tenure isn’t a bad thing….what I would like to see is tenure at a particular school be maintained! Why are good teachers always being moved from good performing schools….or being moved from improving schools??!!?? What needs to be seen is HOW these good teachers TEACH….and apply to as many classrooms as possible…..
THAT’S the ticket……
HDB
August 24th, 2010
10:53 am
Bosch August 24th, 2010
10:48 am
Got your back on that one…….
Southern Comfort
August 24th, 2010
10:53 am
And I’ve learned along the way that the more effort someone puts into telling you how great of a person they are (i.e. what a great “Christian” they are), the more you need to avoid them.
So, that means I need not talk about how Chuck Norris I am at work?
@@
August 24th, 2010
10:53 am
Bosch:
There may not be teachers’ unions, per se, but I can tell you that Clayton County lost their accreditation due to battles between MACE and GAE.
StJ
August 24th, 2010
10:54 am
Now we get to see what happens when the beneficiaries of social promotion in the 90s are now in charge of the schools.
When I went to school, you either learned the material or you failed. Failure was bad news for your hindside when you got home (and cheating was worse). The failures went on to be manual laborers instead of getting a college degree they didn’t earn.
Matti
August 24th, 2010
10:56 am
I do think that better treatment of teachers goes hand in hand with expectations. So many enter the profession full of idealism and hope, only to become jaded and bitter, and (tired of being broke), drop out to pursue other professions. When the kids come home and complain of angry teachers that spend 45 minutes yelling and berating them, and 5 minutes on the subject matter, there’s a systemic problem. No one goes into teaching so they call yell at kids all day, but sadly, this is not a rare occurrence.
The free-market capitalists are quick to defend the fact that a professional athlete can get a 5-year, $60 mil contract, but teachers have to make it on $40K. “He generates revenue! The teacher leeches off my taxes.” As a society, I think some of our priorities are seriously out of whack. The educated citizens of India are kicking our butts on a number of economic fronts, even without a world-class running back. It’s not just about doing jobs cheaper, it’s about being ABLE to do the jobs that leave our shores.
Sound long-term investing: it’s not just for individuals. It’s good for a nation as well.
HDB
August 24th, 2010
10:56 am
@@ August 24th, 2010
10:48 am
“Oops! forgot to comment on the topic.
There’s no incentive…ABSOLUTELY NONE…that would encourage me to rob a child of their education.”
The problem is that there are some that WILL!! When the first thing said by many is “cut education spending” BLINDLY….without looking at what’s effective…..that’s robbery!! If the nation ran a cost-benefit analysis of education vs. PRISONS, we’d discover that educational spending would generate a greater BENEFIT than spending on PRISONS!!
Bosch
August 24th, 2010
11:00 am
@@,
No they didn’t — they lost their accreditation because they didn’t meet SAC standards which is the only way a school can lose accreditation. Blaming it on professional organizations is the cheap way out.
Southern Comfort
August 24th, 2010
11:00 am
As a society, I think some of our priorities are seriously out of whack. The educated citizens of India are kicking our butts on a number of economic fronts, even without a world-class running back.
Matti for Governor or Secretary of Education!!!
cat dancer
August 24th, 2010
11:00 am
Teachers have to “dumb-down” the cirriculum for the slower kids and the bright ones are bored. I think we need to seperate students into groups according to their ability to learn,( that ought to get em howling). My wife is a special ed teacher and she has a different “plan” for each of her students. They are not all the same and this goes for the regular ed kids too.
Saul Good
August 24th, 2010
11:00 am
HDB@10:48 am
Wanna see “racial profiling”??? Come up 400 and enter into Dawsonville… take a good look at just who gets pulled over…
YourDaddyWasRight
August 24th, 2010
11:02 am
Jay, I fully concur with your assessment of Bob Wilson’s skills as an excellent prosecutor. He sure has a long and distinguished record of that. Bowers, on the other hand, was never a prosecutor while he was Attorney General. In fact, he never walked into a courtroom until he left public office and went into private practice. So, don’t be so quick to suggest he’s some kind of crack prosecutor in the same mold as Bob Wilson. He’s not. It may very well be that Bowers’s principal qualification for being appointed by Perdue appointment has to do with his loyalty to Perdue. Also, you need to keep track of the $$$ that these two attorneys will be charging. Apparently, Perdue’s using unspent dollars budgeted to vacant state positions — dollars that could have gone toward paying down the massive cuts which the next Georgia Governor will be faced to make in 2011.
HDB
August 24th, 2010
11:02 am
Matti August 24th, 2010
10:56 am
“I do think that better treatment of teachers goes hand in hand with expectations. So many enter the profession full of idealism and hope, only to become jaded and bitter, and (tired of being broke), drop out to pursue other professions. When the kids come home and complain of angry teachers that spend 45 minutes yelling and berating them, and 5 minutes on the subject matter, there’s a systemic problem. No one goes into teaching so they call yell at kids all day, but sadly, this is not a rare occurrence.”
Two reasons for this:
1) Teachers do NOT have the power to discipline or remove those who disrupt…and principals WON’T back the teachers!!
2) Lack of parental involvement…..parents view school as the babysitters that allow them their freedom! Those parents who are working multiple jobs in order to maintain the family unit….through no fault of their own, cede some responsibility to teachers because of economics!
If principals would back the teachers in matters of discipline and disrupton..the teaching atmosphere would change for the better!!
cat dancer
August 24th, 2010
11:03 am
Matti, Matti, Matti…I second that SC
HDB
August 24th, 2010
11:03 am
Saul Good August 24th, 2010
11:00 am
“HDB@10:48 am
Wanna see “racial profiling”??? Come up 400 and enter into Dawsonville… take a good look at just who gets pulled over…”
Like I don’t know that??? Wonder why I won’t drive to the Outlet Mall….
TaxPayer
August 24th, 2010
11:06 am
I think our children are, as they always do, learning precisely what we teach them. Perhaps, we’re just not asking them the appropriate questions on their tests.
Curious Observer
August 24th, 2010
11:07 am
Some pursuits don’t require a Masters’ Degree…but making it a desirable qualification — and rewarding someone for having it…would help!!
I’ll render a dissent here. Most masters degrees for teachers are in the general field of teacher education—materials and methods, etc., with a thesis on some arcane teacher or education theorist. The graduate courses don’t do a thing to improve a teacher’s knowledge of the teacher’s subject field—and usually that knowledge is the weakest part of the teacher’s credentials. Ask anybody who’s ever earned a straight math or English degree to comment on the subject knowledge requirements of the teacher education version. The nation’s education departments have teacher education requirements locked up, and they’re going to stay locked up. Those requirements are the education departments’ bread and butter.
Normal
August 24th, 2010
11:07 am
Paul @ 10:47,
I see your point and I can grugingly agree, but all I’m really trying to say (badly) is that to call this a religious war (and if you profile “Muslim”, it becomes so), is wrong and exactly what the terrorist wants. As a terrorist, I would like nothing more than for every set back I suffer, I could cry out and say, “See, they hate me because I’m Muslim”, and wait for my new recruits…
A wise man once told me that most politicians will tell you what you want to hear, slap you on the back and call you a great American, and tell you that if you vote for him, he will fix it all. Then after he is elected, if you don’t make over 250,000 a year, he’ll drop you like yesterday’s news.
This is the terrorist. He will tell his base anything to survive and he will kill them if he feels endangered. He will strike out at all he hates or envys, but he is not doing it for Allah, he just says he is. Tke religion out of this “war” and call them what they are.
And notice that I am comparing Politicans to Terrorists. Some of our “Leaders” are spreading fear and hatred. That is my definition of terror. What to do about that?
Southern Comfort
August 24th, 2010
11:07 am
LOL @ HDB!!!
Bruno
August 24th, 2010
11:07 am
“Yesterday when you lied about my mosque position I spelled it out for about the tenth time. You ignored it and now once again say I refuse to clarify my positions.”
RW–After you appeared to defend the mosque protesters several times, I asked you to state your own opinion as to whether it was appropriate or not to build the mosque in the planned location. Your numerous past references to “sensitivity” issues implied to me that you thought it was a bad idea. When I pressed you to clearly state your position, all you could come up with is “My position is that they have every right to build there and the people who oppose have every right to voice their opposition. Not exactly a difficult and highly nuanced position.” A non-answer if I ever saw one. Very similar to your “defense” of the religious posters. Very similar to your complaints last year that the music posters throughout the week were “ruining” Friday night. Maybe I’m looking for a clarity of thought which you can’t achieve.
“You’re certainly free to call me names and lie about me as long as Jay B allows you to, but I would think you would just ignore me.”
The bottom line, RW, is that you are one of the biggest hypocrites on the board. You complain regularly that people don’t stay on topic and use the board as a social gathering place (Morning Magpies, anyone?), but that all goes out the window when you want to give play-by-play descriptions of baseball games, or when you and your blog girlfriend, @@, want to coo at each other. You accuse me of calling you names, forgetting that you have called me a jackass, said you had no use for me, and have bragged about putting me and others through a “blog frisking”, whatever that is. You regularly alter other people’s blog names to get your digs in (sfb instead of sfd, AmWet, etc.), but appeal to Jay now that the tables are turned.
As far as ignoring you, I rarely engage you, because frankly, I find your one line analyses to be lacking. You’re free to go your way and I’ll go mine. You have your supporters on board and I have mine. But please, skip the dramatics and hypocrisy, will you?
Paulo977
August 24th, 2010
11:08 am
SOUTHERN
ATL…… @7:58am…. THAT of course is what this discussion should be about !!! NCLB , Standardized Testing , State Standards all put in place by NON-EDUCATORS!!!
Saul Good
August 24th, 2010
11:10 am
Matti:
“The free-market capitalists are quick to defend the fact that a professional athlete can get a 5-year, $60 mil contract, but teachers have to make it on $40K. “He generates revenue! The teacher leeches off my taxes.” As a society, I think some of our priorities are seriously out of whack. The educated citizens of India are kicking our butts on a number of economic fronts, even without a world-class running back. It’s not just about doing jobs cheaper, it’s about being ABLE to do the jobs that leave our shores.”
Yups! Let’s not forget how much of the money we spend gets funneled over there…by the very “American” corporations that see what they get when paying an “educated” workforce… I mean India has MANY problems with a highly poor population… but the “educated ones” in India make out nicely…they get paid LESS compared to what one might get paid here by the same US Corporation…but they get more “bang for the buck” as well…
and…
talking about the ball “runner, catcher, thrower” in our society… it starts at the school level…where coaches are valued MORE compared to math teachers… that coaches at UGA get paid WAY more compared to Biology teachers there… and that those same coaches…are “celebrities” in the news… yet one never hears as “breaking news” when UGA signs on a new math professor. Yes…there’s much wrong there. Most of all when only a small percent of the students playing football there will make it to the professional level…yet EVERY student who graduates (or does not graduate) enters our “work-force”….
MT
August 24th, 2010
11:12 am
Is our children learning?
Matti
August 24th, 2010
11:12 am
So Comf,
Not that I don’t appreciate a world-class running back! (I was a college classmate of one of the all-time greats!)
But like the President said in his “stay in school” speech last year THAT WAS NOT SHOWN IN MY CHILDREN’S SCHOOL because five parents called and screeched about the Marxist Muslim Communist *mother bleeping…* breathe Matti… breathe….. Not everyone is going to be a rap star or basketball great or get rich from reality TV. Success comes from studying and hard work, and finding your potential.. .by reaching and doing your best and not giving up. (I’m paraphrasing, but the text is here for those who missed it: http://www.whitehouse.gov/MediaResources/PreparedSchoolRemarks/)
If The Profit Fits
August 24th, 2010
11:13 am
Well it looks like maybe the Troy Davis soap opera is almost over. Soon there will be one less cop killer that we have to feed and clothe. What a waste. He could have had a career with the DEA in ebonics.
HDB
August 24th, 2010
11:13 am
Good morning, SoCo…..
Paulo977 August 24th, 2010
11:08 am
To a point, you’re right!! Educators need to be more involved in creating and maintaining standards…but they also need to generate input from multiple sources (i.e., the marketplace) to determine what is needed for the workforce!! Education must be a DYNAMIC entity…not static!!
Bosch
August 24th, 2010
11:16 am
Later folks!
please stop the spin jm
August 24th, 2010
11:17 am
jm, it’s the largest cheating scandal in Georgia’s education history. It follows one of the two largest discipline falsification scandals in Georgia’s educational history. It follows the biggest E-Rate scandal in Georgia’s educational history, and there is yet another E-Rate scandal that the AJC has already exposed.
Does this lack of integrity offset by the gains, especially now that the “gains” have been proven to be totally manipulated, as reported by this very paper, not only on the CRCT, but on the drop out rate and the NAEP as well?
Paul
August 24th, 2010
11:18 am
Normal
Interesting point. I’ll agree we should NOT describe this (for ourselves) as a religious war. And the implications on a national level is, I think, why the Obama Administration takes the stand it does.
But that also does not mean those jihadists who view it as their Islamic duty to drive out the invaders, overthrow governments who are allied with the West and who don’t follow Islam, who feel religious justification confirmed by their religious leaders for slaughtering women and kids, haven’t made it into a religious war.
“What to do about that?”
Well, from what I read at Ms Tucker’s, you label their speech as offensive, defeat them at the polls, then you go after any potential employer to try to keep them from ever having another job, tell other running for office if they say anything their group finds offensive they’ll organize a boycott and….
Bruno
August 24th, 2010
11:21 am
“It’s not ALL in the IQ….but methodology AND parental involvement!!”
HDB–All that we can hope for in the end is that each child lives up to their potential. As stated above, I have worked on the south side of town for the past few years and have worked in the inner city prior to that. Just my opinion, but I didn’t see many kids expressing an interest in education or living up to the potential that I saw in them. Maybe my expectations are too high.
“I think we need to seperate students into groups according to their ability to learn’
Sounds like a good idea, cat dancer, although that would work against the “self-esteem” goals that seem to be a big part of the curriculum these days. No one wants to be in the lower tier groups, although that’s where they’ll be once school is over.
“When the kids come home and complain of angry teachers that spend 45 minutes yelling and berating them, and 5 minutes on the subject matter, there’s a systemic problem.”
Do you think lack of discipline on the part of the kids is the culprit, or more a lack of teaching skills?