Afghan document dump paints a discouraging picture
I’m on column duty for tomorrow’s newspaper, so I don’t have time to do the topic full justice. It’s already pretty clear, however, the release of more than 90,000 previously secret internal military documents about the war in Afghanistan is likely to echo through the national discussion for weeks if not months.
Based on what I’ve seen so far, the material documents in ground-level detail just how difficult it has been to make lasting progress in just about any endeavor in Afghanistan. Whatever small gain we make today is washed away tomorrow, with little sense that larger goals are within reach.
The Obama administration is understandably downplaying the relevance of the documents, as the Washington Post reports:
White House officials and their allies in Afghanistan and Pakistan sought Monday to play down the political and military impact of the unauthorized release of thousands of classified Afghan war documents, saying they portray a reality on the ground that is already largely known…..
Even as they sought to minimize their significance, senior administration officials acknowledged that they had been anxiously awaiting the long-rumored posting of the documents. “There is not a lot new here for those who have been following developments closely,” one U.S. official said Sunday.
Washington officials are also pointing out that the documents cover a time frame before President Obama’s decision to commit additional manpower and resources to the fight.
“These leaked reports pre-date our new strategy in Afghanistan and should not be used as a measure of success or a determining factor in our continued mission there,” according to Ike Skelton, chairman of the House Armed Services Committee. “… since these reports were issued, Pakistan has significantly stepped up its fight against the Taliban, including efforts that led to the capture of the highest-ranking member of the Taliban since the start of the war.”
“The documents posted by Wikileaks reportedly cover a period of time from January 2004 to December 2009,” National Security Adviser James Jones responded. “On December 1, 2009, President Obama announced a new strategy with a substantial increase in resources for Afghanistan, and increased focus on al Qaeda and Taliban safe-havens in Pakistan, precisely because of the grave situation that had developed over several years.”
The problem is, there doesn’t seem to be much evidence that things have changed in any fundamental way since Dec. 1, 2009, and so far, the mundane if discouraging details contained in those 90,000 documents make a strong argument that they probably never will.
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481 comments Add your comment
Saul Good
July 26th, 2010
5:04 pm
“After all, Bin Laden didn’t try and kill someone’s daddy…………..”
Actually Daddy and his Daddy were doing business together for many years… some might even have called them “friends”…. in the very least “acquaintances”… who enjoyed the finer things in life…
Fred
July 26th, 2010
5:04 pm
By your own link there Saul, the french FINALLY joined us with their meager force in 1781 in a war that ENDED in 1781. Got there just in time for the party in other words, just like I said earlier. And we STILL paid for that stupid statue the “gave” us.
John Birch: Don’t forget that the FIRST battle we Americans fought in WWII was against THE FRENCH.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
July 26th, 2010
5:04 pm
101!
~~~~~
Should we secede from our responsibilities, like good little dummycrats?
laruen
July 26th, 2010
5:07 pm
Look at all the turn-coat conservatives, where’s your patriotism, why do you want to cut and run….
Dave R.
July 26th, 2010
5:08 pm
Saul Good: “Turns out Saddam never had any WMD’s (besides the one’s the Republicans sold him in the 80’s)…and was never really a threat to us to begin with.”
No proven under the first part of your statement, and probably right the second part.
To be intellectually honest, Saul, there is no proof of where the WMD’s that Saddam had actually are. To say he never had them would be to ignore the gassing of the Kurds, and I’m sure you’re not denying THAT, are you?
And I’ll take the provably balanced presentation of the NEWS (not their OPINION programs during prime-time) on Fox News over the cheerleading and lack of reporting on the other news channels.
Del
July 26th, 2010
5:09 pm
Fred@5:04pm,
You’re most correct..good one.
josef nix
July 26th, 2010
5:09 pm
Fred
Not the biggest fan of the French foreign policies myself, but it was their navy which bottled up the British and made possible Yorktown. Their on the ground support was vital in the southern campaign. And let’s not count out just how much of the philosophical nature of our republic is from the French…
Dave R.
July 26th, 2010
5:13 pm
Hiya, josef!
josef nix
July 26th, 2010
5:16 pm
Hey, Dave!
Howzit goin’?
TaxPayer
July 26th, 2010
5:21 pm
Andrew loves Al Queda. Who woulda ever known. Then again, he is a Republican.
AmVet
July 26th, 2010
5:22 pm
Hey kids. Back from Fla. The beach was fantastic. With a full moon over St. Augustine, no less. Sweet.
I trust the Friday night sing-along was not marred by the predictable rants of the BHO haters?
Looks like the last couple of topics were doozies. The shameless, and often criminal corporate culture that has festered in this land for decades and Tennessee traitors? Woo Hoo! Fergit, Hell!
As for this matter, the writer above hit the neo-con nail on the head. Cut and runners. Chickenhawks everywhere LOVED the botched occupation as long as George was playing fake combat pilot, but now? Nope. They’ve seemingly lost their vision (LOL!) and their collective scrotums.
It must totally suck that the War Party cannot remembered a winning military strategy of theirs since…………….. Grenada!
And it took a non-inhaler to ACTUALLY win a decisive campaign with a lasting peace.
What a burn…
Pogo
July 26th, 2010
5:22 pm
If there were leaked classified reports that were written on every war that has ever occurred in the worlds history there would be facets of them that would not be acceptable to the “public”. But when one is speaking about national defense, what the average “lay-person” thinks is an atrocity may just as well save their ass. World War II is a classic example. So when you see things exposed that are written by military and intelligence people that are supposed to be classified and then those things are dumped to a public that doesn’t have a clue as to the reality of the world and our military situation and they are leaked by some treasonous bastard trying to make a cheap buck or trying to make a political statement, give pause. We have never known all that was going on in the name of our defense and that is as it should be. In this case it kind of like the movie, the public cannot handle the truth. There are too many political prisms to look through at the facts of our defense and political hacks (like Jay) can make fodder of them. Whoever leaked these papers should be tried for treason. Irregardless of the White House’s public stance, Obama certainly didn’t mind this leak. It only plays into his political hands. I mean why else would the Obama admininstration have recently offered guidelines to the NYT’s and some other outlets on managing classified leaked documents? They knew they were coming and they just wanted it done correctly and to their political advantage. There is no correct way to publish classified documents. It is treason and if the White House knew about these papers, they are complicent with the release of classified documents and Obama should be considered treasonous. Of course, we already knew that Obama has been pretty much living on the edge when it comes to law and the constitution. He is relying on the American public to be so ignorant as to not question anything he does. And for a certain portion of the public, he is exactly right. Jay certainly would never question anything Obama does, now would he?
@@
July 26th, 2010
5:23 pm
WARNING: THIS VIDEO IS DOCTORED.
Along with HIS war in Afghanistan, Obama wages war on the gulf states.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7gecdSVXKE&feature=pyv&ad=5747212017&kw=barack%20obama
Too funny!
Fred
July 26th, 2010
5:25 pm
There is no doubt it shortened the war jonix, but the outcome was no longer in doubt. The french waited until that matter was clear before they gave us overt help. As to the “philosophical nature of our republic?” How was it french? The french revolution wasn’t until 17989. That is 8 years AFTER our War of Independence. Benjamin Franklin was negotiating with King Louis XVI (ie monarchy).
As a matter of fact Jonix, it was OUR lead that the french followed on their path to Democracy, not the other way around.
josef nix
July 26th, 2010
5:25 pm
AmVet
Hey…glad you had a good time…Friday night was really quite good…want a good, fun read, go check out Doggone’s 10:23 p.m.Friday post to me…! Worth the ride I assure you…
Fred
July 26th, 2010
5:26 pm
LOL 1789, not 17989……….
Fred
July 26th, 2010
5:27 pm
Oh, and Amvet, thanks for the report. Probably heading for the beach around the 4th of August. Good to know it’s not oil infested because of those poor mistreated people from BP……………..
TaxPayer
July 26th, 2010
5:35 pm
This calls for an apology. The Republicans should apologize to the Taliban for the way Obama has been dragging out this war in Afghanistan. All they have to do is take one of their canned apologies to a company like BP and change a few words. They could probably hire GW to hand deliver it for them and even do some hand holding while over there.
Saul Good
July 26th, 2010
5:35 pm
Fred…the funds to for the “stupid statue” (which I’;m SURE you’ve never been to)… well it was raised privately…as were the funds to erect it.
josef nix
July 26th, 2010
5:36 pm
Fred
The nature of the structure of our republic was based in the Enlightenment and the philosophes those French intellectuals whose ideas formed the core of Enlightenment thought…. Montesquieu, Voltaire, Denis Diderot, Jean Jacques Rousseau, Condillac, Alembert,D’holbach, Turgot, and Condorcet among others.
We “reexported” it to France where the early revolutionaries did indeed seek to copy us…unfortunately the Jacobins took over and it went to hell in the proverbial handcart and order reestablished under the far from democratic regime of Napolean…it would be the Third Republic before the American style democracy gained a foothold…
The “French path” and how we Americans would relate to it marked/marred the early days of the republic, laying the foundations of our own two-party system, Jefferson’s Democratic-Republicans being pro-French and Hamilton’s Federalists taking the opposition side. The feud is what led to the Alien and Sedition Acts and the Genet Affair…
Pogo
July 26th, 2010
5:40 pm
Obama on “The View”. Makes you feel real good when the President of the US has to go on some cheap daytime talkshow, doesn’t it? Especially one comprised of people that worship him and that would agree with him no matter what he does. The people on this show would lick his boots if he asked them. And doesn’t that add lots to his credibility. This pretty much reeks of desperation by a substandard media created president (or figure, whichever you prefer). Newsflash Obama; It won’t work!
Saul Good
July 26th, 2010
5:40 pm
Josef…Fred would rather rewrite history… the battle of Yorktown was what won the war and ended the Revolutionary War. It was done side by side with the French… what Fred said is like equating that because the US didn’t land in Normandy until 1944… they played only a MINUSCULE part in winning WWII.
AmVet
July 26th, 2010
5:41 pm
josef, what a hoot! I especially loved how he noted in snarky fashion that 206 years was not sufficient!
Fred, nope the Atlantic beaches are untouched. Did some great body surfing yesterday as the waves were really kicked up. (for Florida.) And there are so many neat, great little places to eat in that town. I swear there is one restaurant for every resident.
I see where brother Bruno showed up Friday night! That’s great. That cat always plays some outstanding stuff. And it looked like he was contrite and trying to bring people together. He’s a good egg that way.
And wherever he is, this one is for him…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ehc6GJ3R7M
Fred
July 26th, 2010
5:49 pm
Thanks Jonix, I think I’ll research those names. I was always under the impression that we got our Republic from the Romans as it was always Romans I saw referenced by the framers of the Constitution.
Saul: bite me. I have yet to see you post one thing that is true and verifiable. Grow some nuts and address me directly like a man don’t be a coward and talk around me, talk TO me. But don’t expect me to let your lies slide. I neither lie, nor cheat, nor steal, nor tolerate those who do.
josef nix
July 26th, 2010
5:50 pm
BTW
Well before the French sent “official” aid in the form of naval reinforcements, 12,000 French citizens had already come to join the American forces…particularly coming to the South where there was the strong ties with large French speaking populations in Charleston and the “old Southwest,” centered on Natchez. Their colonial era good relations with the local Indian nations ensured that the Choctaw took a pro-Revolutionary stance and checked the British inroads with the Chickasaw, securing the western frontier…
Dave R.
July 26th, 2010
5:51 pm
Gotta love Edmond-Charles Genet, josef. He was a shrewd operator.
And it’s goin’ OK, thank you for asking.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
July 26th, 2010
5:55 pm
A Wall Street Journal editorial called the written summary of the East Anglia investigation, “a 160-page evasion of the real issues.” Former University of Virginia professor of environmental studies Patrick J. Michaels of the CATO Institute wryly noted, “It’s impossible to find anything wrong if you really aren’t looking.”
There’s still another shoe to drop. Virginia authorities are investigating whether Mann of Penn State used fraudulently manipulated data to win government funding. Investigators won’t set out to protect reputations or to justify funding. It’s a criminal probe.
Claims of academic freedom won’t stop the cop at the door. All that will matter is whether books were cooked to line pockets with taxpayer money.
I think we all know the answer to that question, just sayin…
josef nix
July 26th, 2010
5:56 pm
Fred
The Romans and Greeks had their influence on the philosophes, to be sure, but that was the “classical.” The philosophes, though, were the voices of the contemporary concepts in the Revolutionary Era, heavily influencing the thoughts of Jefferson, Madison, Paine, et al. Rousseau, of course, is the key figure, but it was Montesquieu whose ideas were most at work…
@@
July 26th, 2010
5:58 pm
Del:
Thanks for responding to Debbie’s “that is SO not true” post.
I rarely linger waiting for responses. They’re all too predictable.
“SO not true”???? is SOOOO valley girl(ISH).
Fred
July 26th, 2010
5:59 pm
Saul, once again your “logic” borders on stupidity. Are you really this confused?
Yes, the Americans landed in Normandy on Jun 6th 1944, before that however we landed in in Africa, near Casablanco as well as in Algiers in 1942 where our first battle was with THE FRENCH. After we pacified Africa, we invaded Sicily. Sicily led to Italy. Then in 1944 we did in fact invade at Normandy. But that wasn’t our first participation in the war. We were aiding the Europeans much earlier than that.
I don’t rewrite history Saul, I am however well versed in it so you BS ramblings are evident when they are so far from the truth.
Just sad……..
md
July 26th, 2010
5:59 pm
“and checked the British inroads with the Chickasaw, ”
Yeh, getting my inroads rebuffed by the Chickisaw is always a bummer……….
Saul Good
July 26th, 2010
6:03 pm
Fred…you don’t Lie???
Sure ya don’t…and being the honorable “tough guy” behind your Commador64…you certainly like to throw around the word “coward” a lot. For someone whose never even been to France…you certainly have such a well formed opinion about the people, culture, and history of france…
Yeah..I lie huh? I’ve posted so many links, charts, etc to back up what I say/post and it’s always “tough guys” like you and Dusty who never do anything but what you just did…go on the attack personally. That’s okay “tough guy” Fred… you have no fear of ANYONE thinking that you’re a closeted homosexual here. No need to act so tough…(most of all when behind that keyboard)…. you can still be a member of Glenn Beck,s Militia and student at his University without fear of retribution.
Lighten up… it’s a friggin’ blog… k tough guy?
Fred
July 26th, 2010
6:05 pm
Well that fits jonix, given the whole french painting thing and the “Renaissance.” I love reading the old histories and seeing the french referred to by the Brits as “decadents.” Much as I love to hate them, the french were “socially” ahead of the rest of the world in the late 1600’s and 1700’s, (maybe culturally would be a better term).
Like I said, I’ll read up on that a tad. Thanks again for the info. I know the names you have mentioned, i just have never explored them as much as I probably should have.
josef nix
July 26th, 2010
6:09 pm
DAVE R
Wasn’t Genet a pip! Even the taciturn Washington needed 8000 words to lodge his complaint! One of my “other screen” projects this summer was running a fact check on an article dealing in part with the Genet Affair…whoo!
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
July 26th, 2010
6:12 pm
The result of this is now clear. We see, in the rampant indebtedness of our country and the European countries, what Yuval Levin has called a “gluttonous feast upon the flesh of the future.” We see the infantilization of pu-blics that become inert and passive, waiting for the state to take care of them. One statistic: 50 percent of all Americans 55 years old or older have less than $50,000 in savings and investment. The feast on the flesh of the future is what debt is.
Chris Salzmann
July 26th, 2010
6:13 pm
Del July 26th, 2010 5:04 pm SAID: “After all Bin Laden didn’t try to kill someone’s daddy”
He killed a lot of daddy’s…You may want to share your formula for winning with Obama, as he seems to be agreeing more and more with GWB.
CHRIS SAYS: Like I said earlier, the window to win in Afghanistan was in the first couple of years when the Taliban were on the run. We could have won and withdrawn and called it a great American victory. Anyone who claims we can win in Afghanistan at this point is dead wrong. That includes Obama.
BTW, do you think GWB cared about anyone elses daddy? All GWB and the right-wing cared about back then was to “finish” the job that they believed that his father should have done during the first Gulf War. Right after 9/11, all they could think about was, “How can we pin this on Saddam?”. In fact, the words 9/11 and Iraq were pretty much ALWAYS said in the same sentence. Remember that? Bin Laden and Afghanistan was never the end…..it was a means to an end, which was ALWAYS Saddam. That’s pretty much sums up the period between 2002 and 2009.
THAT’S why we are in the mess we are in now. We screwed up Afghanistan for 8 years straight. The dam went from being cracked to plain broken. Sticking a finger in it isn’t going to fix it anymore.
Saul Good
July 26th, 2010
6:15 pm
Freddie? (can I call you Freddie or is that too effeminate for you)? I didn’t realize I needed to post the whole history of our involvement in WWII… I was talking about our massive invasion that helped to END the war going on in Europe. Just like France who came to our aid towards the end of OUR war.
With regards to our own Revolution… France was involved right from the beginning of our war Freddie…from the very moment that Franklin signed the Treaty of Alliance with them in 1776. France gave us considerable financial support. France also supplied us with arms and loaned us money to fight against the British…. right there from the very start. had they not done that for us… we’d have never won that war.
So Mr. Student of history….please explain to everyone how that’s a “lie” I simply “made up”…
Fred
July 26th, 2010
6:18 pm
I’ve been to france you old depends wearing wind bag. I’ve climbed the Eiffel tower (on the outside one night lol), had coffe on the west bank, and walked through the Arc De’ Triomphe. As a matter of fact, there are few COuntries I haven’t been to you old depends wearing wind bag.
Again you lie and talk out your ass. I have never listened to Glenn Beck. I’m not really sure who he is. But then i guess anyone who doesn’t kiss your depends MUST be a Republican right? Well wrong. It’s funny, I now got an old fart Republican and an old fart lefty accusing me of being a pub AND a lefty. You ain’t too good at arguing are you? You post lies and half truths then get all willowy and pouty when you get called out. and if ANYONE calls you on your lies and lack of logic then they MUST be an evil republican. Once again you show the limits of your mental capabilities.
LOL I never had a commodore64 but I wanted one back in the day. It was a step up from the TRS80 I got. But no, actually I’m currently using a computer I built for myself a couple of years ago. Since you are so interested in my rig, it has a Q9450 (intel quad-core) bedded in an nVidia 790i ulta with 8GB’s of DDR3 1600 RAM with a Velociraptor for the HDD. All in an Antec 900 with a thermaltake 1200 toughpower to power it all. A pair of 5850’s in cross fire provide the graphics and I’m using 64 bit Vista Ultimate. As for my optical drive? It’s an LG DVD HDD/Bluray burner.
Whoops, that lightning strike was close. better turn this thing off before it gets fried………
Saul Good
July 26th, 2010
6:24 pm
“I’ve been to france you old depends wearing wind bag.”
Stay Classy Fred…
Well I DID have a Commodore 64…not sure why my Dad when and bought that…guess he thought us kids “needed” one…. Know what else I had? A friggin’ Atari PONG game! Easily WAY more fun compared to the C64! There’s some “history” for ya!
Watch out for that lightening… blew out a BUNCH of stuff here last year… dishnetwork system… cell phone that was charging, etc…
okay…time to go some “Freedom Fries”…anyplace still selling those down here?
josef nix
July 26th, 2010
6:30 pm
md
Heh, heh!
Fred…
Like you, I have a love-hate relationship with the French. My own family background is very French, I grew up with the language and culture “ours.” So, to a great extent when I go off on the French, it’s “personal!”
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
July 26th, 2010
6:32 pm
Well, I’m hanging around to see if Fred and Saul really get it on. I think it’s probly a Mexican stand-off, but you never know. I think describing a person’s PC is a start and calling somebody a old depends wearing windbag is getting a little closer, but it’s a mighty weak start to a fight. When they get around to “mine is bigger than yours,” we might be on to something.
Have a good night everybody. The lightning is striking all over the place, and I’d hate to see my PC get blowed out. I need it for work, if you know what I mean. Y’all would hate to do without me tomorrow, wouldn’t you?
md
July 26th, 2010
6:34 pm
There is a difference between winning militarily and culturally. We can claim victory any time we want with the first, probably never with the second.
All we can do is plant the seed and let it grow – like everything in life, it will grow or it will die.
Pull the ground troops, tell the afghanis to implement the draft and patrol with drones – end of story.
josef nix
July 26th, 2010
6:35 pm
Storm’s blowing in here, too, so I better close out for a bit…back (I hope!) in a bit…
md
July 26th, 2010
6:38 pm
The French are pissed for one reason – the rest of the world doesn’t want to speak french.
Same with many countries that don’t like the fact that English is the predominant language. And since we americans already speak english, we are considered “uncultured”. Truth is, they learn english out of necessity, where we learn languages for the culture.
Saul Good
July 26th, 2010
6:40 pm
Getting dark up here in the foothills…but no lightening yet…had some a few hours ago… but anyway…Freddie can call me anything he wants…well except for a republican…That would hurt….I mean are there any republicans out there that still call themselves that anymore?… or have ALL of you simply switched over to calling yourselves Libertarians and Tea Party Conservatives in the post Bush world? Best part…is that every vote cast by those using those titles…the person has an (R) behind their name.
Sincerely,
Old depends wearing wind bag (AKA Saul Good…who will NEVER be confused with being a republicanlibertarianteapartier)…
Ninja
July 26th, 2010
6:41 pm
Saul it’s just like with Soothsayer and NJ. They disregard it out of hand with nary a fact to back up their argument. Then come the insults.
Jimmy Joe Bob
July 26th, 2010
6:44 pm
Well, if ‘em Talibans would just put on some kinda uniforms or something, then we could just kill ‘em and be done with it. No, they sneak around and blend in with the regular folk and shoot us when we’re not lookin’. I say until ‘em Talibans is willin’ to put on some uniforms and fot far & squar we oughta just pull out!
Dave R.
July 26th, 2010
6:46 pm
Saul, are there any liberals still calling themselves that?
I believe the cover term for you guys is now “Progressives”.
Just sayin’.
Saul Good
July 26th, 2010
6:47 pm
“Then come the insults.”
pretty much the same everywhere… standard “format” these days to be expected.
It’s the computer generation’s version of “beer muscles” …
Saul Good
July 26th, 2010
6:50 pm
I pretty much only hear the right calling us Progressives…I’m still a lib.
Progressive is the 2010 version of “Elites”… who knows what it will be in 2011
maybe we’ll all be “old depends wearing wind bags” in the lead up to the 2012 elections.
Saul Good
July 26th, 2010
6:51 pm
“we oughta just pull out!”
For a second I thought you were talking about “abstinence only education” birth control methods….
Scout
July 26th, 2010
6:57 pm
Daddy, is Afghanistan going to be another Vietnam ?
Dave R.
July 26th, 2010
6:59 pm
Saul, please. Can we get just a LITTLE intellectual honesty from you tonight?
The “right” calling you “progressives”?
The MSNBC lineup is not made up of the right. Donna Brazile is not on the right. James Carville. Howard Dean. The list goes on and on.
Soothsayer
July 26th, 2010
7:01 pm
How big is big? Attempting to give the Afghan War Logs their place in history requires that this explosion of top secret documentation in the public domain be measured against the yardstick of the sensational 1971 leak of the Pentagon Papers, which changed the course of the Vietnam War.
Video grab from Rethink Afghanistan Part 4: Civilian CasualtiesThat effort, which prompted Henry Kissinger to dub Daniel Ellsberg, the man who leaked the papers, as the most dangerous man in America, was a paltry 7000 pages. But apart from revealing how badly the war in Vietnam was going, it also revealed one of Washington’s dirtiest secrets: the US was carpet-bombing neighbouring Cambodia and Laos.
But already it can be said that the logs will be to Afghanistan what the Pentagon Papers were to Vietnam.
To date, the logs’ single new revelation on the conduct of the war is that the Taliban appears to have heat-seeking, surface-to-air missiles – one of which brought down a US helicopter.
Take a long, hard look at the photograph.
Saul Good
July 26th, 2010
7:03 pm
I said “pretty much”… anyway…as I said, I still call MYSELF a lib. No sugar coating ANYTHING (nor is there any reason to)… I have nothing to hide with my political views leanings. Though I do feel that in the next year or two that “Progressives” WILL in fact be overshadowed by the newer Old Depends Wearing Windbags. Catchy.
Valley Girl
July 26th, 2010
7:07 pm
““SO not true”???? is SOOOO valley girl(ISH).”
I yike it!!!!!!!!
Doggone/GA
July 26th, 2010
7:10 pm
“There is a difference between winning militarily and culturally. We can claim victory any time we want with the first, probably never with the second”
Or, to put it another way, what good is it to win the war…if you lose the peace? And that, I think, is what is going to happen in both Afghanistan and Iraq. We’re going to lose the peace.
theyeshaveit
July 26th, 2010
7:11 pm
Saul,
I would not take ownership of that appellation as yet. Most of us here are of the generation that can well identify with folks in their dotage wearing a pair of “depends”. And, who among us here is not a bona fide “windbag”.?
Del
July 26th, 2010
7:16 pm
Saul,
I’ve been critical of Bush on issues. I don’t believe nor do most that he went to war with Iraq because of his father GHWB. I don’t think you really believe that either.
Del
July 26th, 2010
7:16 pm
@@,
Well I gave Debbie a link as she requested. Haven’t seen her reply.
Doggone/GA
July 26th, 2010
7:18 pm
“I don’t believe nor do most that he went to war with Iraq because of his father GHWB.”
I do, but not because of any kind of “attack” on him. I think it DOES come down to “finishing the job” that GHWB didn’t. I can remember the reactions of those around me at work when we didn’t go ahead an invade Iraq during the Kuwait war. Well, we did…it just took a few extra years to get there.
md
July 26th, 2010
7:19 pm
“And that, I think, is what is going to happen in both Afghanistan and Iraq. We’re going to lose the peace.”
And there in lies the problem, for “we” will lose nothing. The good folks of those 2 countries need to decide how much “they” want it, for only they can achieve it.
Del
July 26th, 2010
7:19 pm
josef,
Never let a good storm go to waste.
Del
July 26th, 2010
7:25 pm
Doggone/Ga,
I disagreed a lot with GWB but I truly believe that he believed that he was doing the best for America. He may have thought that his father didn’t finish the job but I don’t think correcting a paternal mistake is what motivated him. I think he believed Saddam was indeed a threat. I believe that too, I just think it could have been dealt with differently.
md
July 26th, 2010
7:25 pm
“I do, but not because of any kind of “attack” on him. I think it DOES come down to “finishing the job” that GHWB didn’t. I can remember the reactions of those around me at work when we didn’t go ahead an invade Iraq during the Kuwait war. Well, we did…it just took a few extra years to get there.”
A little problem called the UN stood in the way of GHWB, and then the weenie UN lead #2 to do his thing. Getting rid of the worthless UN is a good starting point.
@@
July 26th, 2010
7:26 pm
Valley Girl:
“I YIKE IT” is/has been a phrase used by of my students. One that I refuse to correct because I find the enthusiasm behind it so contagious. Eyes wide, jumping up and down with a big smile on their little faces…I YIKE IT!
what’s not to YIKE? I’ll let the speech therapist worry about that one.
@@
July 26th, 2010
7:26 pm
….many of my students.
IHB
Del
July 26th, 2010
7:28 pm
“Getting rid of the worthless UN is a good starting point”
Amen to that…the UN isn’t our friend.
Doggone/GA
July 26th, 2010
7:31 pm
“I think he believed Saddam was indeed a threat”
I wouldn’t argue with that, it was his ACTIONS, not his beliefs that angered…and still to anger…me. I have long held the belief that what he did was not only immoral, but criminal. But I won’t hold my breath waiting to see him tried for it.
@@
July 26th, 2010
7:31 pm
Del:
And I’ll add to yours, just in case Debbie is lurking. From an article submitted by Veterans for Peace, found at Common Dreams:
The President went on to say, “I want the American people to understand that we have a clear and focused goal: to disrupt, dismantle and defeat al-Qaida in Pakistan and Afghanistan and to prevent their return to either country in the future. That’s the goal that must be achieved. That is a cause that could not be more just. And to the terrorists who oppose us, my message is the same: We will defeat you.”
Obama’s just war.
Michelle
July 26th, 2010
7:32 pm
Daddy, why didn’t Bush even catch bin Laden?
josef nix
July 26th, 2010
7:33 pm
Del
Storm seems to have past. Didn’t go to waste. Had a good conversatio with the little one about G-d, thunder and lightening…
Michelle
July 26th, 2010
7:33 pm
Daddy, why are there no pictures of Al Qaeda terrorists in that deck of 52 cards?
Michelle
July 26th, 2010
7:34 pm
Daddy, why did Rumsfeld shake hands with Saddam?
Soothsayer
July 26th, 2010
7:36 pm
Trouble in Toyland: U.S. recession jolts China- Dwindling demand hastens closure of at least 3,600 factories, stirs unrest
Declining U.S. orders already have contributed to the closure of at least 3,600 toy factories since the beginning of 2008, according to the Chinese government, leaving hundreds of thousands of Chinese workers suddenly out of work in this sector alone. Some of the shutdowns have triggered violent protests, a situation that could worsen if the Western recession drags on through 2009, as many economists are predicting.
“Over half (of the factories) that have closed had negotiated a price, then when they couldn’t get the retailer to move (on the price), they wouldn’t make it at a loss and closed down,” said Britt Beemer, a retail strategist and founder of Charleston-based America’s Research Group.
Others found ways to cut corners, which is cited as one reason that the problem of Chinese toy safety came to a head last year. Among other things, some Chinese factories started using lead-based paint on their products because it dries faster and thereby speeds production time.
Have they killed the goose that lays the golden eggs? They took all of our jobs now there’s no one left to buy anything.
md
July 26th, 2010
7:36 pm
“Daddy, why didn’t Bush even catch bin Laden?”
And how do we know he didn’t…………………….
There is a lot that us common folk will just never know. Remember when Clinton campaigned on releasing all the info on JFK?? Well……….he didn’t.(or couldn’t?)
Saul Good
July 26th, 2010
7:36 pm
Del, I’d agree with Doggone (about there being some unfinished business)…but most of all…i believe he did it because of Project For A New American Century… his administration and his team of advisers were made up of MANY of the members of PFANAC… I mean there’s a whole section just about Iraq…and how it was centrally located in the middle east…and it’s oil reserves, etc…also about how if they could set up a “democracy” in Iraq…the other surrounding nations would follow suit (I mean who wrote THAT part… must have been Kristol)… I believe that W was always a bit of a Daddy’s boy…and though he wanted to “finish” the job started there years before…that alone was not reason enough to invade.
With all I’ve read on the subject…THIS is why I believe we went to Iraq:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_for_the_New_American_Century
“On January 16, 1998, following perceived Iraqi unwillingness to co-operate with UN weapons inspections, members of the PNAC, including Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, and Robert Zoellick drafted an open letter to President Bill Clinton, posted on its website, urging President Clinton to remove Saddam Hussein from power using U.S. diplomatic, political, and military power. The signers argue that Saddam would pose a threat to the United States, its Middle East allies, and oil resources in the region, if he succeeded in maintaining what they asserted was a stockpile of Weapons of Mass Destruction. ”
WHAT’S THAT??? WMD’S MENTIONED BACK IN 1998???!!!
“They argue that an Iraq war would be justified by Hussein’s defiance of UN “containment” policy and his persistent threat to U.S. interests.[10]”
On November 16, 1998, citing Iraq’s demand for the expulsion of UN weapons inspectors and the removal of Richard Butler as head of the inspections regime, Kristol called again for regime change in an editorial in his online magazine, The Weekly Standard: “…any sustained bombing and missile campaign against Iraq should be part of any overall political-military strategy aimed at removing Saddam from power.”[11] Kristol states that Paul Wolfowitz and others believed that the goal was to create “a ‘liberated zone’ in southern Iraq that would provide a safe haven where opponents of Saddam could rally and organize a credible alternative to the present regime … The liberated zone would have to be protected by U.S. military might, both from the air and, if necessary, on the ground.”
BASICALLY… the plans were in place for years… all they needed was to start the drum beat to launch the invasion… “fear”…and “patriotism” was what they used in their propaganda machine to lead the charge. The whole you’re “with us or against us” BS… yeah…like opposing that war before it started was “Un-American”… a majority of the propaganda fed fearful public still hurting immensely from 9-11 and still wanting others to “pay” bought it up like hot dogs at a baseball game. to “support” the troops and slap a silly magnet on your SUV was the “patriotic” thing to do for this nation…
Well everything started off as planned…but boy did they ever get SO MUCH of it wrong…
okay…lightening in full force and it’s time to ponder dinner ideas…
maybe after that I’ll head out to the local depends store… wonder if they have any “obamacare approved” models yet.
md
July 26th, 2010
7:39 pm
“Have they killed the goose that lays the golden eggs? They took all of our jobs now there’s no one left to buy anything.”
Out of curiosity, who’s jobs did we take before they took ours?? Life is nothing but a giant cycle – round and round we go……………
Soothsayer
July 26th, 2010
7:43 pm
The U.S. is now in deep recession. Rather, it is in depression similar to the one in the 1930s. As consumer demand in the U.S. and Europe dies, countries that built their economies centered on exports will suffer the most. Some notable export oriented countries like Canada, China, Japan, South Korea and Taiwan are likely to be affected.
China, which emerged in the last 20 years, will be impacted the most as consumer demand for its exports is in sharp decline.
China priding as the factory of the world was toasting last month on being the world’s third largest economy. However, its statistics are questionable and there is no end to its self-praise and sycophancy.
josef nix
July 26th, 2010
7:43 pm
A real quick one on the Americans and the North Africa campaign…the North African Jews were certainly glad to see them. Rommel had done what he could to protect them, but Vichy was ready to send them packing…
Michelle
July 26th, 2010
7:44 pm
Daddy,
What mission did Bush accomplish?
Del
July 26th, 2010
7:45 pm
Doggone/Ga
I couldn’t agree with immoral or criminal. We had a saying in Marines called the pp’s “proper prior planning prevents piss poor performance” We did a poor job of planning and assessing consequences. We failed to acknowledge are serious lack of dependable intelligence in the region and we didn’t think through other alternative strategies. As they say “wisdom is always 20 20 hind sight” but you never want that syndrome to occur in war.
Michelle
July 26th, 2010
7:50 pm
Daddy,
Who did the Taliban visit when they went to Texas?
Dave R.
July 26th, 2010
7:51 pm
Man, just watched Chris Matthews get his head handed to him again on Hardball by a Republican. Last time it was an Alabama congressional candidate on his support for the FairTax, and tonight it was Paul Ryan on the subject of deficit reduction.
Matthews needs to stop reading his own material and LISTEN to his guests.
Doggone/GA
July 26th, 2010
7:51 pm
“I couldn’t agree with immoral or criminal”
And I wouldn’t try to convince you, but it is my opinion…and always has been. I’ve seen nothing since to make me change my mind.
And as far as I am, and have been, concerned…NONE of the issues you raise matter. We should NOT have been there to begin with. If we hadn’t gone where we did NOT need to go…poor planning and all that other stuff would NEVER have come into it.
josef nix
July 26th, 2010
7:52 pm
Del
When the latest Iraqi venture started, Unmentionable said, “and there go the Yankees uninvited again to go and tell somebody else how to live using military force and having no plan at all for reconstruction. Best case scenario, 150 years from now two fat and sassy Iraqi will be cursing the Yankee invaders in Arabic from their balcony in a prestige zip code in Baghdad and it will lose little or nothing in the translation.”
Michelle
July 26th, 2010
7:53 pm
Daddy,
What is Made in America?
Soothsayer
July 26th, 2010
7:53 pm
The free-market fundamentalist crowd told us that globalization was inevitable, there was no stopping it. If that was true then why did we need to pass NAFTA and CAFTA and China’s MFN status? Why did globalization have to be helped along if nothing was going to stop it anyway?
The theory of the pro-globalization, pro-free trade crowd was that the people in these towns would migrate into jobs in new industries. Those industries never came.
So the hardworking people that lived in these cities left for new cities in the sunbelt, where everything was supposed to be better…except that it wasn’t.
Cul-de-sac neighborhoods once filled with the sound of backyard barbecues and playing children are falling silent. Communities like Elk Grove, Calif., and Windy Ridge, N.C., are slowly turning into ghost towns with overgrown lawns, vacant strip malls and squatters camping in empty homes.
The center of free-market fundamentalism, the leading advocate of deregulation, free-trade agreements, and the exporting of good-paying jobs, has always been Wall Street.
These people on Wall Street didn’t just create the current economic crisis, they also bought your government. These banksters aren’t just an enemy of your economic way of life, they are also an enemy of your democracy.
barbara's bush
July 26th, 2010
7:54 pm
Daddy,
Why did GW hold hands with Prince Abdullah of Saudi Arabia after 9/11 when 19 of the 21 hijackers were saudi arabian…
josef nix
July 26th, 2010
7:54 pm
Dave
Matthews gets on my last nerve. He’s such a conceited and pompous ass with the manners of a yard dog…
Michelle
July 26th, 2010
7:55 pm
Daddy,
Are they going to leak all those photos of those people that were killed in Afghanistan after 911 too?
Del
July 26th, 2010
7:55 pm
Doggone/Ga,
You’re certainly entitled to your opinion but don’t believe that Saddam wasn’t a a danger to this country and the free world. He was.
josef nix
July 26th, 2010
7:57 pm
barbara’s bush
And why does the current POTUS go bowing to the same who put me and “my kind” to death simply for being?
O-I-L…human rights be d*mned…
Doggone/GA
July 26th, 2010
7:57 pm
“You’re certainly entitled to your opinion but don’t believe that Saddam wasn’t a a danger to this country and the free world. He was”
I said I wouldn’t try to convince you…do me a favor, and DO NOT try to convince me of that. I flatly disagree.
Dave R.
July 26th, 2010
7:58 pm
Agreed, josef, but he USED to be relatively prepared for his show, and tried to at least see another side of an argument.
Now he just resembles most of the unsavory bloggers on this site.
(and you know who you are . . . .)
josef nix
July 26th, 2010
7:58 pm
“You’re certainly entitled to your opinion but don’t believe that Saddam wasn’t a a danger to this country and the free world. He was.”
And if you don’t believe it, ask a Kurd…
josef nix
July 26th, 2010
8:00 pm
Dave
Unsavory bloggers? Sh*t! I thought I was spicey!
Doggone/GA
July 26th, 2010
8:00 pm
“And if you don’t believe it, ask a Kurd…”
And while you’re at it…ask a Kurd how dependable WE were.
neo-Carlinist
July 26th, 2010
8:01 pm
Scout, you beat me to the punch. I can’t decide if this is the Pentagon Papers, or the Tet Offensive. This was Bush’s war, but now it’s Obama’s. Can anyone say; “LBJ”? And what bothers libs and paleo-conservatives is the fact that regardless of the timetable (2004-2009), Obama knew the score and he still “surged”. The neo-cons will love this because it is a “crisis” they can’t pass up, and it will all be worth it when we (well, Haliburton) mine the lithium for the Chinese, so they can manufacuture and sell it back to us as batteries for our laptops, PDAs and electric cars. Lithium is the new petroleum!
md
July 26th, 2010
8:02 pm
As I recall, that toothless UN had several – more than several – resolutions stating Saddam was a problem.
In reality, Saddam and the UN were both the problem.
What good is a toothless world governing body??