Should soldiers’ attitudes drive Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell decision? Based on Harry Truman’s example, the answer’s no

I couldn’t figure out why we had this instead of music and then I realized it’s only Thursday.

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“then I realized it’s only Thursday.”

Must be something in the air. I almost said “have a nice weekend” to someone a few minutes ago.

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Well why don’t we just declare it Friday?

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“Well why don’t we just declare it Friday?”

Be nice if we could…but I’m afraid it would be too much like the “how many legs does a dog have, if you call a tail a leg?”

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Declare it Friday?

No thanks, it’s too late to get out and cut the grass. Da bugs’ll eat me up.

Tomorrow morning is just fine.

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Jay:

Talk about ME repeating myself. How many times are you going to bring this one up ?

O.K. I forgot, it’s your blog.

By the way, you do a terrible disservice to blacks by putting their skin color in the same category as sexual perversion. You really should be ashamed but ……… I know you are not.

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P.S. to Jay:

Don’t forget the soldiers do have one decision that even YOU can’t mess with ………..

The decision to enlist or re-enlist.

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@@,

I cut mine last night and I think the mosquitoes were pushing the mower as much as I was. Thought about calling you since you love to cut grass and all

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Like any other employee, if they don’t like the policy, there’s the door

You don’t just quit the military!

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Scout, I answered you down stairs. I have to boogie now.

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“If the law changes and we are told to implement it — and we will, if the law changes — then how do we do this in a way that makes sense?”

What’s to ‘make sense’ of? If a gay service member comes out as gay, NO LONGER FIRE THEM.

How simple is that?

Jeez, perhaps we should be taking a heterosexual survey instead. Or at the very least, an IQ test.

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You don’t just quit the military!

And the military is not a democracy, it’s about being trained to do what you’re told to do.

Everyone who enlisted should have known that from the outset.

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Well, if the initial response here is any indication….

HEY!

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This is all well and good until there is a gay guy in the shower lookin’ at somebody elses business, and goes all trying to recruit others to the lifestyle and such. The US Armed forces can whip Nazis, eliminate communists, annihilate terrorists, but good God! Don’t infiltrate them with gays! The entire US war machine will collapse! Dodging bullets, high explosives, suicide bombers etc is bravery enough. There is no need to have to serve alongside gays. That is way to tough a test of courage for our fighting men. They just won’t be able to handle it and Obama’s secret socialist plan to dismantle the military and turn us all into secret Muslims will come to fruition.

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oops
resPonseS…oy!

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The key to this study is to be able to see that in each region of the country, the percentage of moderates is essentially constant and that the issues in all cases is strictly on the left and right fringes.

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Scout,
For a theoretical situation, Say your son and/or daughter came up to you and said that they were gay. Would you:
1) wonder how they got perverted, never talk to them again
2) accept them, and hope they “change their mind”
3) accept them, and support their decision
4) congratulate them, support their right to marry freely, serve their country freely, and live without bias against them
5) something else?

The point I am making is that this has been the same situation that has been going on for ages. Did you watch Fiddler on the Roof? What was his reaction when his children married “outside the norm”?

Your previous arguments fall well short since a great majority of the country do not see gayness as “perversion.” If there was no “sexual” action, would you still feel the same way? Just a loving couple being married? or having someone server openly and honorably shoulder to shoulder with the next soldier/marine/sailor/airman?

I understand where you are coming from, I used to be there. I’ve met many who are gay, and it is NOT something they choose. It is a God-given trait.

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But not 100%. Soldiers are also trained that they have a duty to NOT obey an illegal command.

Granted.

But I think it is perfectly legal to order soldiers to serve along side openly gay service members.

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This is all well and good until there is a gay guy in the shower lookin’ at somebody elses business, and goes all trying to recruit others to the lifestyle and such.

That’s not where gays come from.

It’s infectious cooties.

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You gotta hand it to them, the human rights hating xenophobes are consistently delusional. They were delusional in 1948, they were delusional in 1993 and they are yet again delusional in 2010.

Stuck on stupid…

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A lawful order is not illegal, immoral or unsafe.

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I’m not quite sure I get your point, but to point out…it is currently ILLEGAL to order soldiers to serve with openly gay service members.

Well, it shouldn’t be.

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L-rd, breeders sure have a fascination with showers! Can somebody inform me as to why?

That’s where the cooties are.

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You don’t just quit the military!

Unless, of course, you’re a General or an Admiral, then you can resign your commission and retire.

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And the military is not a democracy, it’s about being trained to do what you’re told to do.

I take it you have not been in the military! Quit while you are behind dude.

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“Can somebody inform me as to why?”

Not being either gay or male (this seems to be an almost exclusively male issue) I can only say that while everyone knows that being black doesn’t “rub off” on white people, too many men (in particular) think it IS possible to “turn someone gay” and it might happen to THEM.

Just a guess.

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josef nix,
Showers are traditionally places where you can do what the guy from “American Beauty” did in his shower. So, of course, there’s a lot of talk about showers.

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I put in 4 years of military duty in the late 60’s but I do not pretend to know today’s military. I do know comparing DADT to segregation seems ridiculous. My way or the highway won’t work in an ALL VOLUNTEER service, so members should have a voice in DADT policy changes. The bigger question is, will Obama make the change even if the majority of military is agasint it? The answer to that is yes, the arrogant Bast— thinks he knows better than you or I.

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“thinks he knows better than you or I”

hate to burst your little bubble..but this is not Obama’s decision to make. It needs to come from all those arrogant bastards in Congress first.

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IR/YW
Now, I must admit, I’d be scared to be in a shower with you…you might want to just talk…

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“but I don’t go there”

Saw a quote not too long ago (sorry don’t remember where) from a soldier whose sentiment was along the lines of: “if a guy saves my ass, he sure as hell can look at it”

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Jay,
When one volunteers, that’s the only way in now, for the military, he or she agree to follow all legal orders. Normalizing service for gays and lesbians, who have served honorably, some with distinction in the past, is long overdue. The Commander in Chief should order it done, period. There will always be individuals who don’t wish to serve with gays and lesbians, or blacks, or hispanics, or Jews, or women. For them, don’t enter the recruiter’s door, and as for those already serving, when their service tour is completed, find the exit door.

PS
I served the better part of four years, USMC

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@, @@: Aren’t ypou SUPPOSED to cut your grass near dark in the summer so the tender cuts can heal overnight and take advantage ot the dew rather than burn and sizzle all day?

@Scout: Actually I disagree with your 4:50. Looked at dispassionately, both are SOCIAL issues. Back in 1948, many whites thought blacks were a “perversion” or “sub human.” In reallity though, neither skin color nor sexual preference is contagious. Gays have been in the military, in EVERY military since OG first got Mog and Thog to band together and chuck rocks at Ug, Mug, and Thug from the next ravine over.

AT issue is whether or not to let them “come out of the closet.”

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“The Commander in Chief should order it done, period”

He can’t. It’s a law, and it needs to be either changed or repealed by Congress.

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I was talking to my serviceman boy about this. He said the subject was being brought up and one of his peers was going on and on about the showers and what HE’d do if…my boy says before he could say anything, the rest of them had started laughing and when Blushing Bubba wanted to know “well, what’s so funny.” He says one of the rowdier of the lot, know for his womanizing, says, “Bubba what makes you thing some f*g would be interested in yore flabby a33 and pot gut?” My boy says that the conversation then turned to who “would have something to worry about.” Says they all were cutting glances at one of their number who, as the survey puts it, they “believed to be homosexual.” Says he laughed, “what you looking at me for. I ain’t asking and I certainly ain’t telling!”

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Gator Joe

July 22nd, 2010
5:26 pm

I agree with you for the most part but think the decision is for the Military to make, not the CinC considering he never served. USAF

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Logical Dude – the “right” thing to do is subjective. Now, don’t go claiming moral superiority. I personally would not change DADT, but if today’s soliders are OK with it then I am. What I don’t like is the predetermined decision based on political payback.

Josef, I think the cat is out of the bag on this one. Only the completely uniformed will not be reminded of the hijinks when voting in Nov.

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joseph? what does a33 mean? Is that an new gay code for ass or something, or is it a new word for man boobs? Given the context it was hard to tell………

Just a tip for all though: in the infantry, gay ‘humor” is rampant. When you have to be in as close contact with your buddies as you have to be in the Infantry, the jokes are bound to happen, and they do. It’s hard to explain to a civilian or a REMF.

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josef:

I just got thru reading it.

First section? How’s military life been for ‘ya so far? Any problems? How well did your unit function as a team?

Committed to their answers. Then….

Have you ever served with someone you believed to be gay…blah blah blah?

Well, yeah, there was this guy/gal, who I thought was. It goes on…

If DADT is repealed how will this effect…blah blah blah?

If, in the first, section, they offered praise for their unit, then they’ve admitted all is well regardless of whether they suspected someone of being gay.

My personal opinion is the whole thing should have been kept under wraps. Send out the first section without the subsequent sections as they apply to serving with gays. If in the subsequent sections they change their tunes only to find out that they’ve been serving with gays all along, they can experience an ah ha moment. Can’t go back and change their original opinions now, can they?

The only problem I foresee, is when they get to the part about how the leadership would deal with things. Would all things be equal? That could be a problem.

Then, of course, there’s that “inflammatory” word throughout. H-O-M-O-S-E-X-U-A-L.

Even you said it was silly to declare the word inflammatory.

This post probably doesn’t make any sense to anyone but me.

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Trust me paranoid xenophobes, none of those gays would ever want to ____ you anyway. They’re gay not blind.

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JAY
Thanks…that WAS very interesting…also, I did not know that had been done…the findings, though, don’t surprise me…much the same sentiment still prevails…just post something on the state of Israel and see just how entrenched those attitudes are still…

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“Why? The volunteer army is serving with gays as we speak”

Would you happen to know how many are currently serving by branch and MOS? Do you know if there are homosexuals in sufficient numbers that open open homosexuality wouldn’t be viewed as anything particularly different to the average G.I.? Or are you just sharing your opinion of what you think may be the case.

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Hey Reb,

Nah, having family problems right now, I’ve had to check out this week to take care of them. I’m checking in now for some laughs and to get my mind off some things.

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Please let me rephrase Doggone since you like to split hairs! I think Congress should take the advice of the Military and not the CinC on DADT. Feel better now?

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Logical Dude @ 5:06 :

Good question but this is an easy one …………..

I would tell him the same thing if he said he was in a gay relationship or had been cheating on his wife and wanted to get a divorce and marry this new woman or any number of other life situations where he may be going down a wrong road :

1) Son you know I love you and want what’s best for you.
2) You also know this is wrong and not in God’s will for your life.
3) I will help you in any way I can to not get involved or get out of this emotionally, spiritually and even phystically destructive lifestyle.

I could go on and on but you get the picture ……….. tough love even if he is an adult.

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UCMJ says that have sex, even off-duty and consenting adults, is prohibited.

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More than two dozen foreign militaries allow homosexuals to serve, the latest being Uruguay. Suzanne Goldberg, director of the Columbia Law School’s Sexuality and Gender Law Clinic, said that Canada, Britain, Australia and Israel found that allowing open service has been, “as one person put it, a collective yawn.”

Polling finds that more than three-quarters of the public and most self-described conservatives favor open service. Opposition has dwindled to “a rear-guard action by some people who really care about this, and there aren’t that many of them,” said Morris Fiorina, a political scientist at Stanford University’s Hoover Institution.

Time to put your big boy pants on, fake conservatives. You can only live in your romanticized past for so long. And that time ended along time ago…

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JAY
Oy! Mate…I never said they do…I’ve got my own problems with Likkud and I’m certainly NOT a self-hating Jew. I say IF you look at many of the comments when the subject comes up, the distinction between the policies of the current government and the J-E-Ws is NOT made and do, indeed, belie a latent, and oftentimes overt, anti-Semitism…

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BOSCH
Good to see ya! Folks were wondering where you were and when I tried to conjure you up and you didn’t appear, I got worried…

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Bosch, best wishes with your personal challenges. In keeping with the subject, here’s one that might put a smile on your face.

A gunney stated when he first enlisted homosexual activity was against the law. Later, it was OK if you were not caught and did not talk about it. He decided to retire before it became mandatory!

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I see the Deep Thinkers are out and about today. Such a waste of useful space and possible humor. Duh.

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JAY
I thought about your post back to me. Back in your court…any disagreement with the attitude of many who equate challenge of the expression of disagreement OF SOME/MANY with the policies of the state of Israel as based in anti-Semitism implies that I am in favor of those policies…evidently criticism of the the criticism is verboten…? Please, clarify…

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“Doggone, your kidding, right?”

Kidding about what?

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“I think Congress should take the advice of the Military and not the CinC on DADT. Feel better now?”

I have no problem with that. I just don’t think Congress should be DICTATED to by the military…any more than was Truman.

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Those who want to go to the “tiny minority” argument…10% of the population is not that tiny number one, but even if it is, put yourself in that “tiny” minority’s shoes…

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Kamchak and AmVet,

No — my mom is very sick and not expected to pull through. It’s something that happened very suddenly, I have enough casseroles to feed a small country. I’ve been at their house for the last few days and I’m tired of being comforted right now, so I thought I’d blog and have people tell me what a dumb ass I am — somehow that is more comforting right now.

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Bosch, you dumb ass!
(somehow, I had an urge to say that)

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josef,
It will probably be “classified” at first, and then “leaked” since the results will be a big “so what?”

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Bosch

Well, OK…what a dumb ass you are.

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All of the gays that want to serve OPENLY should just join the Air Force.

Everybody else should just observe the DADT policy.

Isn’t that what we are doing now?

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@@
Reminds me of one of those Unmentionable was taking one day…I was scared to ask…

I’ve got a great principal. Not too long ago we had one of those job satisfaction surveys…hard copy and we were required to complete it at a faculty meeting…I did as required and attached my “further comments on an additional sheet of paper.” I took it to her and said, “here. Don’t worry. You can go ahead and throw it in the garbage now, that’s what they’ll do with it downtown. Just check me off the list as having completed mine and your count will pass muster…”

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Bosch:

If it’s alright with you, I’ll save my abuse for later. But know that I’m thinking about you.

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jt
@ 6:18

Air Force? I thought it was the Navy…

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Hang tough, B! I’m sure it must be damn difficult.

Hope this helps a tad…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q7RPCFfudmU

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jt,

“even though you have officially boycotted my comments,”

What? I haven’t boycotted your comments. I think it’s Scout that makes the “I have banned you from conversation” lists.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thanks @@.

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Later folks! gotta run and make a casserole!

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Okay, I can’t resist stepping in even when I know the pool is WAY too hot….Military service and sexual orientation are not mutually exclusive things. There are many in the military now whose morale is difficult to maintain because they can’t admit who they are. Like it or not, it is entirely possible to love one’s country and appreciate the honor of protecting it while being gay. What you do on your own time is just that and so far doesn’t seem to have impacted military performance. I think Gates is right to gauge the effects on overall troop morale, but in the end if nothing in the daily routine changes, the morale will adjust and be fine.

It’s not like the soldiers don’t know or suspect who’s who. I doubt very seriously you’re going to see a line of soldiers waiting for a microphone to proudly announce their homosexuality. Most will likely continue to live quietly, and the only substantive change will be that they can serve and not be afraid that someone will find out and they’ll get booted out. It’s not like they’re asking to change the Officer’s Club to an LGBT bar.

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AmVet:

“In the United States, the Central Intelligence Agency, the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Secret Service allow open service. The key to implementation, experts said, is a uniform code of conduct that is enforced without regard to sexual orientation.”

May I jump in here. I hate to tell you this but you are wrong. I can only answer for one of the above agencies but :

For example:

1) Per the Investigative Manual – Male agents (absent an emergency situation) are NOT allowed to search female prisoners except for a “cursory” search for weapons.

There is nothing in the manual about “openly gay” males or females not searching members of their sex.

2) Per the Investigative Manual – Male agents are not to go into a residence to conduct an interview alone with a member of the opposite sex to prevent even the appearance of inpropriety.

There is nothing in the manual about “openly gay” males or females conducting in residence interviews alone with members of the same sex.

3) I personally attempted to have the above sections of the Investigative Manual reviewed and updated to no avail.

4) Bottom line ……….. Double Standard.

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P.S. Amvet:

The only gays who manage to get themselves hired don’t look or act gay. If it was DADT in those agencies no one would know and that’s the way it should be. In any case, a “flamer” wouldn’t make the cut.

I guess that’s discrimination (flamers vs. non-inflamables)

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jt:

I beg your pardon. My Dad was in the Air Force…a Chief Master Sargeant…a mechanic.

He played poker.

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@@

I’m just saying……………………………

I have the same problem with my wife’s late father.

Air Force dudes reeked of perfume.

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AmVet:

What did you think of the information in my 6:44 ??

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“They took the blue from the sky and a pretty girl’s eyes and a touch of old glory too”

Ooops ……… that’s the Air Force lullaby !

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It is all with due respect.

Your respective fathers would give as good as they got.

Not withstanding pillows and golf courses. And perfume.

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Saul Good :

Sorry ………. no can do. Restricted Use Only and I no longer have a copy anyway.

You’ll have to take my word for it ……….. or not.

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Jay

I thought about that, too. A lot. If you are interested, St, Elsewhere

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jt
There’s something Freudian in that last line of your 6:53

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Scout, interesting but not useful.

But you’ll be glad to know that the disgraced and convicted (of three felonies) Oliver North thinks it will lead to pedophilia in the military.

Nonetheless, your post fails to countermand the information I posted.

Here is some more:

# Sixty-seven percent of civilians support allowing gays to serve openly (Annenberg 2004 survey). In 2003, Fox News reported 64 percent support, and the Gallup organization 79 percent, on a similar question.
# Nearly three in four troops (73 percent) say they are personally comfortable in the presence of gays and lesbians (Zogby International & the Michael D. Palm Center 2006 study).
# One in four U.S. troops who served in Afghanistan or Iraq knows a member of their unit who is gay. More than 55 percent of the troops who know a gay colleague said the presence of gays or lesbians in their unit is well-known by others (Zogby International). The DADT policy serves no purpose, as troops already know and are comfortable serving alongside gays and lesbians.
# All published Pentagon studies, including the 1993 Rand Report, conclude that there should be no special restrictions on service by gay personnel.
# Twenty-four other nations, including Great Britain, Australia, Canada and Israel, already allow open service by gays and lesbians, and none of the 24 report morale or recruitment problems. Nine nations allowing open service have fought alongside American troops in Operation Iraqi Freedom. In addition, 12 nations allowing open service fought alongside U.S. troops in Operation Enduring Freedom.
# Twenty-three of the 26 NATO nations allow gays and lesbians to serve openly and proudly. The United States, Turkey and Portugal are the only NATO nations that forbid gays and lesbians to serve openly in the armed services.
# Federal CIA, FBI, Defense Intelligence Agency and Secret Service agents all serve proudly as openly gay and lesbian personnel fighting the war on terrorism.

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Scout: Perverse action???

Being born a midget is deemed a physical handicap…. same as being born blind or deaf when one seeks to join the military. One who is homosexual is NOT physically unable to “serve” our nation. They’ve been doing it since our nation was founded…

Sad that you consider gays to be “perverse” just “because”… and you equated them having sex with being “perverse”….

Know what I think is “perverse”? Two obese people… who of their own free wills… stuff their faces with junk food all day long having sex ….to me THAT is perverse. Once again you’ll fail to see the difference.

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I find it rather queer that josef and jay are meeting elsewhere.

(ISH)

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josef nix

Didn’t mean to.

And I’m sorry I made any remarks. Now I think @@ might think less of me.

It is inter-agency rivalry. I meant no harm. Back in the day, Scout’s latest post would make me call him out to the cage.

Its just what we did.

Times sure do change.

Air Force dudes still smelled suspiciously like perfume though, IMHO.

The Navy was the only orginization that required the brawn AND the brains.

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jt

July 22nd, 2010
6:53 pm

Gays would have been eaten.

I think that would be their preference…………..

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Shirley named one of her kids Russia?

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jt:

We called it “Rocks and Shoals” ……….. you wouldn’t be the first who tried but failed ………..

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Scout? I doubt you have ever been in the military, and if you WERE you were a REMF. Combat soldiers only care about who will stand beside them when the bullets fly.

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Scout: “and ultimately our military will be less for it as all other militaries who have engaged in this our less than ours now.”

well….Except for the fact that gays have ALWAYS served in our military…

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Fred:

Sorry Pal ………

0311 (infantry)/USMC/Vietnam 1967-68 (secondary MOS 8541 (now 0317) Scout-Sniper)

Next question.

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Scout: “…and the Supreme Court of the United States said DADT was just fine.”

In that case:

They also said abortion is legal. Agree with that Scout? I’ll have to presume you do… it’s the “law” of the land.

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Look, I am not going to claim to know the answer to this question because I (like Jay) have never served and I think we should leave it to the military to decide.

What is funny is that it was just a few months ago that Jay gave us a hyper-partisan screed called, “The party that refuses to listen to the generals’ advice” in which he (as usual) demonizes people who disagree with his intrinsically correct views. At that time, he was claiming that we need to listen to the Generals who support the change that Jay wants.

http://blogs.ajc.com/jay-bookman-blog/2010/02/22/the-party-that-refuses-to-listen-to-the-generals-advice/

Frankly, I would rather be the “The party that refuses to listen to the generals’ advice” than “The party that refuses to listen to the soldiers’ advice”. Of course, sneering at common people and worshiping elites is what being extremist liberals do right?

BTW: Note Jay attacking Cheney for never serving, yet advocating military action. Jay never served, yet Jay has advocated all kinds of military action in Afghanistan. Jay is a hypocrite, but we all knew that.

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And actually Scout…the Supreme Court never ruled on DADT….they simply refused to take the case… so they’ve never heard the case in their court….BIG difference.

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Saul Good:

Happens all the time …………. the let the Appellate Court ruling stand and become the law of the land ……….. they ruled !

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Mike:

At ease soldier ……… it’s not worth it.

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Jay said, “We need to listen to the people in the military on this issue, but only the people in the military who share my views on this issue”.

Now that is some intellectual honesty.

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Scout -

Why don’t you worry about yourself. Who are you?

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jt:

Now I think @@ might think less of me.

Naaahhhh, you’d have to be REALLY out there for me to think less of you.

Worry not.

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Fred:

Oh, so you’re in that outfit with the U.S. on your collar so you know which army you are in ?

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josef:

I couldn’t do that with my three wives either when I had surgery. The law is a funny thing.

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Actually to be clear, Jay was an outspoken supporter of Obama’s surge in Afghanistan. He was an outspoken opponent of Bush’s successful surge in Iraq.

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jr:

Great ! I’ve been on five, in 26 countries and 46 states ……… so what?

LOL !!

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Jay

July 22nd, 2010
7:53 pm

That was HILARIOUS!!!!!!!!!

BTW one of your coworkers almost interviewed me today for an article, Steve Visser. Unfortunately I voted in the DEM primary so I didn’t fit the profile…….

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This is kind of off topic, but I am really interested in hearing opinions about professional military, Blackwater, mercenaries. At one time, I think we just as many “professional security personnel” serving in Iraq as we did regular military. I would especially like to hear the opinions of those of you who have served in the military? Scout? Del? AmVet?

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“What are you talking about? Jay was an outspoken advocate of the war in Afghanistan and he was an outspoken supporter of the surge. Did his children fight there?”

Iraq? The very war Cheney wanted since the day he signed on as a member of Project For A New American Century…. did you forget about THAT war? The more COSTLY war? The one that has cost more $$$ and more lives…. I’ll let Jay speak for himself…I’m just calling Dick a dick…

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Saul Good:

Oh, it’s only been about 45 years and it tool over 200 to get rid of slavery. Give it time.

I predict that some day in the far future people will look back on those who supported the taking of an unborn child’s life in the same way we look back on those now who supported slavery.

How could those “good people” have done that ????????

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mike:

I know.

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Saul Good:

“Dick a dick”? Now don’t get upset if I call Obama a “thug” …….. will you ?

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“LOL. Oh Jay is definitely to be toyed with ”

I’m tellin’ ya, inquiring minds wanna know!!!

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josef:

Stop it !!

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Saul Good –

LOL. Stop your frothing for a second and stay on topic. Nobody is debating anything about Cheney. (I love how angry liberals seem to think that screaming “Cheney” is an answer to all questions)

Stay with me. You said:

““Jay never started the drum beat leading to a war where he sent other people’s children to fight his battles… “right”???””

And I pointed out that Jay was beating the drum for war in Afghanistan and the surge afterwards. It would not be his kids sent to fight the war that he advocated.

Then you started shouting in caps about Cheney. Can you stay on topic?

Why is it OK for Jay Bookman to advocate war but not have served?

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I still don’t understand why the moderator won’t take the word r-i-d-i-c-u-l-o-u-s but it’ll take dick.

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O.K. ………. I have to go set out some claymores and trip flares. Back later.

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“Cheney”!!!!!

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josef –

“mike
calling Jay a hypocrit because he hasn’t “served””

I am a little confused. Do you agree/disagree?

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Fred -

So when guys like Bill Kristol and Sean Hannity are called “chickenhawks”, you think that is unfair?

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Scout

July 22nd, 2010
7:58 pm

Fred:

Oh, so you’re in that outfit with the U.S. on your collar so you know which army you are in ?

I see you scouted around THAT challenge. I also see you “reported” my comment. But for your information, only the officers are so stupid they need a US on their collar to know what branch of service they are in (in the army) in the marines, they have to have it stenciled on the uniform, which you would know had you really actually ever SERVED. You see, us vets who served in wars are kinda of proud of our units. We say things like “I was in the 1st Marine Division, Second battalion, echo company at Khe Son” or something like that. (note: that was a random example, I was never in the marines much less the first marine division. I don’t know if the 1st Marine division was even IN Viet Nam, much less Khe Son).

If you were REALLY a Marine, you would have come back with, “Every Marine is Infantry.” Which actually is very close to the truth. You haven’t even READ much about the Marines you are posing to be. How sad.

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ALLAH is GOD

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ridiculous

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Thank goodness, jay. I have need to use that word often when posting here.

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so scout’s a poser….

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mike

I neither agree nor disagree. Being neither a veteran nor from a military family, I have a civilian perspective. Married into a career military family and having a kid of my own who chose it as a career I have to view their perspectives and opinions quite differently than my own…

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While I’d like to make sure all of America’s fighting men and women felt warm and fuzzy about their time in the service of our great nation,
it’s time to completely integrate gays into the military and make it an order.

I feel safer with homosexuals than I have ever felt with homophobes.

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mike,

Thank you for your reply. You are every bit an American regardless and I commend you for your honesty and for not making presumptions. I’m sure you’ve served this country in many other ways.

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josef –

“Married into a career military family and having a kid of my own who chose it as a career I have to view their perspectives and opinions quite differently than my own…”

I am glad to hear that you have a respect for their views that Jay apparently does not

The fact that Jay’s dad served is not the same as him serving. If he wants to accuse Cheney of advocating war but not serving, then he is guilty of the same charge. He is a hypocrite.

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Smalls,

Thank you for reply. I’m sure multiple gig’s in the Nam or any where would be preferable to what you endured. I would not have had the patience.

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josef nix

July 22nd, 2010
8:30 pm

Scout? A poser? Nope.

Well that’s two. If I get a third, it’s a hat trick. Apparently I was wrong in my read of him. That rarely happens, but it DOES happen. I’m pretty full of myself, but not so full that I can’t admit when I’m wrong or made a mistake.

Oh well, either you have accepted my apology or you haven’t Scout. I’m sure you understand though. I really HATE folks who pretend they have served in combat and haven’t. I have no problem with those who haven’t served or those who served and never served in combat. Hell, I wish I had never had to kill folks or had folks trying to kill me. The “John Wayne” only takes about 30 seconds to wear off. But it is what it is.

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Del -

Right before Desert Storm, some duty dudes came to my house in Spain and gave me two hours to show up at the QD.

They shot us up with more shots and more drugs than EVEN during hell week in boot camp. All of us had grapefruit sized lumps on our asses for two days and we couldn’t move off of our respective beds from the chills and fever.

To this day, I can’t donate blood and if I am wounded, paramedics wear hazard suits. WTF???????
(IMHO it was the combination taken ALL at once that caused GWS.). Regardless, I never had the time to hang around the VA hospital to collect.

Yea I served.

USN 86-95. Fleet Recon.

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O.K. I’m back ……….. trip flares and claymores out.

Jay: Thanks for the plug ……. some people just don’t know how to debate or have fun.

Fred:

O.K. sir ………….. just to make you happy.

1) India Company, 3rd Bn., 4th Marines and later 3rd Regimental Scout-Sniper platoon and then back to the states for MP Company, Second Marine Division, Camp LeJeune, N.C..

2) Yes, the First Marine Division was there in Nam and mainly in the lower portion of I Corps. The Third Division (of which I was a part) was up in Northern I Corps near and sometimes in the DMZ.

3) No …….. every Marine is not “infantry” (you have to be an 0311 or similar MOS) but every Marine is a “rifleman” ……….. so you had it wrong.

Anything else about the Corps or Nam you want to know just ask and I will be more than happy to fill you in.

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jt,

Bless you…Always have had a deep respect for the Navy and especially Navy Corpsman who served right along side of us.

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@@,

Military families are in the military along with their spouse. God Bless you.

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hmmm. I see that old wrath of sour grapes mike has been about this evening.

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Scout,

I saw that crack about “The only service on a Cracker Jack box”. lol

But did I ever tell you that, while I was in the video game biz, I put my marine corps cousin on the box of a war simulation game? The ad appeared in Soldier of Fortune magazine.

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Del:

Maybe I need to rethink some things. A midget would have made a great tunnel rat !

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josef,

My then fiance and I had a married couple over for dinner one evening. The husband said, “Lisa and I always disagree.” Said Lisa almost immediately, “No, we don’t!”

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theyeshavit:

HA ! I bet he liked that !

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Scout,

He was based down at Pendleton. His buddies were giving him the treatment calling him “GQ! GQ!”. lol

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Scout,

Thank you for your reply even though I was aware. The First Marine Div. was involved against the First Viet Cong Div. in operation Starlight August 1965, actually the first Battalion sized operation of the war. The First V.C. was comprised of veterans of the war against the French and against Japanese forces in WWII. They were main line Viet Cong force, pretty much NVA. The First Marine Division destroyed the 2nd. NVA Div. In the Spring and fall of 1967. Operations Union One and Two.

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Got to go out for about an hour …………….be back.

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jt: Isn’t it weird about those shots? Technically you are in trouble for even admitting you got them. I was told the same thing though. WHen I had my first child, my wife had read enough to be scared our daughter would have three heads or something. i can’t say I wasn’t thinking hte same thing though I didn’t tell her that until later (after teh baby was born we did the truth time thing).

Scout: Glad we’re all cool on that. I’ll bust your ass on things other than service and you can bust mine you freaking mindless jarhead (don’t tell anyone but some of my best friends have been jarheads. It’s all cool though, I talk slowly and use small words when I’m around them )

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Hillbilly,

OK, I got a funny military story for you.

I saw duty with the Air Force at Wakkanai Air Station in Japan. It was a very remote area and there was not always a lot of activity going on during a graveyard shift. So, with a little time on our hands and a new guy (called a “jeep”) coming in we used to tease them pretty bad. We used to sit in front of very expensive electronic equipment. When a jeep sat down next to you for training, we’d invariably reach a moment when we’d say to him, “Damn it. You broke it! Get your a** over to maintenance and ask them for a fallopian tube right away! Now!” The scared jeep would run to maintenance and request the bogus part. Of course, maintenance was in on all this and would carefully place some worn out vacuum tube into the jeep’s hand. That jeep would come back with the “fallopian tube” and we’d all break out laughing. and call him one stupid mutha f***er.

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sorry, no casserole, made hot dogs.
I couldn’t go in the military due to medical issues, but my father was a naval aviator who stayed in 30 years. So,yep, I’m a brat.

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josef,

Are you here? I read your comments about the silver fox from yesterday. My wife had told me, but I had not known. And black t-shirts are cool, huh?

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zeke, zeke, breathe into a brown paper bag, will you?

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Jack C. Brown,

I did serve 4 years. And there are a number of others here who have served. We do not all agree on this issue, but we have all served in the military.

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Okay time to tally up. It appears that very few on this blog have actually served in the military on active duty. I won’t call out by blog handle those who have, because most know anyway from previous threads. Some have indicated that they haven’t served but would not presume the feelings of those who have and some have indicated that they are or were military families. So it would seem in the aggregate that Jay’s opinion blog does not have sufficient creditable real world representation to make any statement in favor of repealing DADT. Enjoy the evening. Taps

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Okay, military men…
I will posit speaking from my own boy’s viewpoint as currently serving…yep, and you’re all old farts and not there now…a different world than the one you left behind you…

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Well this was quick. I have to disagree with you on the stolen valor law. Let me explain. To quote from the article you posted;

“Sterner said many phonies who ultimately don medals without authorization begin by stretching the truth about their exploits verbally or in writing.”

ok, I’m all with you on the wearing of a uniform or decorations you weren’t issued, but…….. most people stretch the truth a little when talking, especially if they are drunk. Also perspectives of people are a tad bit different with any event. That’s why police officers don’t want eye witnesses, they want physical evidence. That part of the proposed law is too broad. i might tell people I was Gi Joe, special forces, ranger, ninja qualified in a joking manner, but under that law, I would be guilty of “stolen valor.”.

But the truth be told, I did things that never appeared on any DD214 form. I have four certificates signed by the Colonel for decorations that aren’t on any DD214 because the PAC clerk did the certificate, the Colonel signed it, and I was awarded the medal from battalion in a formal formation, but the PAC clerk never submitted it up the chain. I “found out” I didn’t have these decorations because I PCS’ed and when I got to my new duty station they weren’t on my DD214. (I learned later he went to Leavenworth because I wasn’t the only one he did this to, but the Army never changed my DD214 because of it). So I actually HAVE the medals, AND the “certificates” (they are in a damn box somewhere, I don’t know why I even keep them still) so by even mentioning them now, under that law I am guily of “stolen valor.”

I found a lot of the record keeping in the Army rather lax. The only time it was perfect is when they wanted to stick something up your ass. THEN every I was dotted and every T was crossed. I never wore a decoration on my uniform that wasn’t on my DD214, but by the same token, I’ve never been able to wear every decoration I was awarded.

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red,

That’s nothing like the battles at safety patrol camp down in Cordele.

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SOAB….exiled again

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josef,

With all due respect wrong…or at least partially to be fair. Infantry, which of course is vital to our military superiority is a far different culture than most here could ever imagine. It’s true that many can serve and yes honorably in other military capacities and never understand that culture. Been there done that for more years than I would care to remember but can’t forget and to this very day I keep in touch, to ever concede my argument to those who don’t know.

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Del:

Exactly. BTW, I wonder if the Taliban has DADT ?

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Scout,

Check out my 9:10 to HD, if you will. Its a little Air Force humor.

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Eyes,

I didn’t ask that question, I asked for a roll call of those who’ve actually served. You have, in the Air Force, so okay you’ve weighed in with your opinion but you haven’t served in a combat infantry unit. There is a cultural difference.

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Del
Again, with all due respect and you know I mean that sincerely and not just as the catch phrase, I merely quote my boy…Bosnia, Kossovo, two tours Iraq including Shock and Awe and one in Afghanistan…IED disposal…

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josef:

you left behind you…

Were you talking to yourself?

J/K

G’nite.

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Scout, yeah, I was Army. No I don’t know what Fort Oglethorpe is famous for, but I DO know that if I don’t leave this computer immediately my wife is gonna cut off “Oscar and the Dangling Boys” whilst I sleep.

Echo Six out, this channel is clear.

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Del,

If service is key to having a say on DADT, shouldn’t you give the same reverence to a man who’s made love to another man, so based upon your prerequisite for experience, homosexual servicemen should decide the fate of DADT.

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eyes
The out and out nazi lot don’t concern me any more than the new Black Panthers…I am far more concerned with those who would never have the chutzpah to be so bold but who share their sentiments to the core…and more and more their line of thought is gaining legitimacy…

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Del,

No, of course, I have not been in a combat infantry unit. But I am not so sure that the infantry reserves a culture unique to itself. Also, as josef says, it’s a new generation out there. I have some cousins and second cousins considerably younger than I am. There’s Eric (Marines, Afghanistan) his brother Kevin (Marines and then Army for two more years), second cousin Natalie (Navy SP), and her brother Andy (Air Force). They’re all out now, I believe. it would be interesting to hear what they think about DADT.

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josef,

You have a son serving in harms way, I would never discredit him or you as his parent…God Bless. I speak only from my own experience.

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I think some of you folks need to realize that serving in the U.S. military is not a RIGHT.

There are many reasons people are excluded for the “good” of the military. The sexual preference issue/problem area is just one (some guy who “came out” today got discharged).

Other issues are age, body fat, weight, height, shoe size, education, criminal record, drug usage, medical issues (some of which are fine but the military just doesn’t want to have to deal with them), etc., etc.

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Scout
Okay, Bud, look at the IDF and remember what it means when you and I say “never again.”

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War sux.

but it sure keeps a bunch of country boys busy.

I’m agin it when people like Dodd, Frank, Cheney, are involved. F them.

But anyhoo, I think of Hillbilly with this song.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xvaEJzoaYZk&feature=avmsc2

Good night.

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josef:

Not sure I get your exact point.

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seth:

Just for that you are awarded my favorite quote:

“When civilized man can no longer stand the horror of war and refuses to fight, then he will surely be killed or enslaved by the uncivilized who can.” Author Unknown

You are welcome.

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Okay, got a WWII story with a twist to scout and Hillbilly

When we went into WWII Daddy’s Daddy came to Mama and brought her 500 lbs of sugar, among other thihgs he remembered having been rationed in the Great War…when rationing set in every moonshiner three counties around came calling to see if she’d “spare some sugar.” Mama said every time she’d say, “why you tell (and she’d say the wife’s name) I’ll be more than happy to share a couple of pounds and don’t even think about payin’ me anything…”

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JUST KIDDING !!!!

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josef:

JUST FOR YOU !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZbSkCKlrHU&feature=related

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eyes:

Sure ……….. happened a lot during the Vietnam draft.

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Scout
When push comes to shove (no Freudian intended!) and there’s only 7 million of you against 250 million of them pledged to your utter anihilation, such luxuries as DADT don’t mean sh*t…the IDF recognizes that and yore nellie gay b*tt or butch d*ke a33 is brought right up in there with all the rest…

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Josef

I wasn’t around then, of course, but I know plenty of folks who always seemed to be able to sugar during WWII.

My Grandpa had quit making liquor by that time but two things he always cussed were “sugar liquor” and “steam liquor”. He believed in the old way and if he ever had a still bigger than 50 gallons, I’d be surprised. Things were done differently in his day. People around here still talk about how two of his aunts were the best brandy makers, anywhere around here. One of them died before I was born but I remember the other one, pretty well.

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eyes ………………

josef: That’s different as they have “compulsary” service. We have plenty without that. If it ever got that bad here, I’d be arming anything that could shoot.

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Scout
@ 10:43

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Scout,

These qoutes must be in your bottom 2:

“I abhor war and view it as the greatest scourge of mankind.” Thomas Jefferson

“If tyranny and oppression come to this land, it will be in the guise of fighting a foreign enemy.” James Madison

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OH, MY GOODNESS ……………………..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gay_bomb

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Scout
So I guess we’re fine and dandy and fit for service when your a33 is against the wall, but otherwise know our place and don’t raise a stink, shut up and go away? Excuse me if I find that a bit, well…what’s the word I’m looking for? A crock of sh*t?

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josef:

Tell seth not to get me riled up …………. he’ll regret it ! I’m starting to breathe harder right now !

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but it was the dam marching

Daddy still breaks out cussing, anytime he hears John Phillip Sousa music.

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Scout
The Enola Gay always did catch my fancy! Drop a Gay Bomb on yore breeder b*tt you mess with me!

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Scout, Josef,

I remember something from Basic now….

We were marching one way and a WAF squadron was marching in the opposite direction. We were eyeballing each other best we could when suddenly we heard the WAF TI scream out, “That’s right, ladies. There is a hundred miles of dick on this base, and you’re not going to get an inch!”

But maybe they didn’t want to? Hmmm.

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Scout
Yeah, but scr*w your DADT! IDF don’t need it…and they’ll take you on 36-1 and not blink an eye…
Folks used to say Jews couldn’t fight, too…

seth
Don’t get Scout riled…it ain’t pleasant!

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Scout,

That is what the jarheads did hanging out like silly knuckleheads out of their barracks windows the day the Air Force football team beat those Marines.

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Del,

Did you do Akadama Red? It is a strong competitor to Thunderbird.

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eyes
@ 11:01

Thass funny!

Hillbilly
@ 11:03
Yep.

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mmmm,

Did the stink of your ignorant breath stir you from your sleep?

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Well, here you go !

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=riYfFQMPIP0

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Eyes@11:06,

Probably but can’t really remember what all it was. Okinawa and Camp Butler was just passing through in 65 and 66.

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josef,

An affiliate of Jack Daniels?

Del,

You may have tried Suntory whiskey in Japan.

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eyes @ 11:09

Thank you ……… I feel better already.

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eyes:

I know what a P-38 is ………. What’s an M-2 ?

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My two cents are similar to some other posts. It’s a different generation! Let the current members of the armed forces make the hard choice in the repeal of DADT.

What would an old guy like me know anyway?

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popeye
What would you know? That you left the world a better place for having passed through it…

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Scout,

Ah,not M2 but M1. The M1 was a World War II carbine.

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josef,

Nice comment to popeye and I can tell you that I would love to think I somehow made the world a better place for passing through it as well, but I can’t wrap my head around what enormous audacity it would take to make that call about myself.

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Thanks Josef…I appreciate that! I don’t know about the better place, but I gave it my best!

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eyes,

My “service” consisted of two years of Army ROTC in the 1970’s but since we had to train on the hand me downs an M1 is all we ever had. The slow learners ended up with major thumb damage during inspections.

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RW
Well, you have, And, yep, can’t say it about yourself, that’s for others to do. One of my favorite lines from “Fiddler” is, “A rabbi who must praise himself has a congregation of one.”

Scout…
May have said this here before, but our Little Princess is “known in Israel as Yael…”

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josef:

Lost me again.

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I figured it out. What’s his MOS ?

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Stop the Christian Taliban NOW!

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Del:

Good ones. I also recently got a Taurus “Judge” for the house ……… .45 Colt and .410 Shotgun …………….

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Scout good choices,

I have a Remington 870 12, tactical for home protection, can’t beat Buckshot. For social work at 200 meters I have an SR 556 with Lake City M55 and M855 ammo. Also for detail work a Rem. 742 with 3×7 Tasco scope. Yes I can group them at 100, Hey good enough!

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Oh well I think I may have unintentionally scared some folks off. Should have maybe talked about Fut Ball. Gnight y’all

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Del:

I’ll take the first watch ……………..

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We’ve seen the power of people such as Andrew Breitbart, who released a harshly distorted video depicting Sherrod as a racist. He almost destroyed her career and her life in the process, yet he still refuses to apologize or take responsibility. -kookman, Urinal

What is the Atlanta Urinal but “harshly distorted?”

The mudslingers and smear job artists got beat at their own game, and they whine and moan.

boo hoo hoo, bookman.

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they-e-shaveit @9:10; also at wakkanai 66-67.

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In other news, I see that the apparent non-aggression pact between NL East rivals continues to manifest itself with yet another Braves win and another m#$%^%#@*ing Mets loss…

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Thanks for the history lesson Scout (Fort Oglethorpe). they had a small detachment of Horse Cav at Ft. Hood, probably still do, but it was just a ceremonial thing, not a real horse Cav unit. I always wondered where the last true Horse Cav was, but never looked it up lol.

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“The mudslingers and smear job artists got beat at their own game, and they whine and moan.”

You are one bloated idiot. The AJC does research… follows up… reports and not opines… We may not always like what they report, but at least they are honest JOURNALISTS.

But obviously you love to be lied to by the likes of FOX, Hannity, Brietbart, etc. You like to be deceived by manipulated videos and sound bytes designed to reinforce your right wing your opinion. Why? My only guess is that you are top stupid to handle the truth so it easier for you to let others think for you and define your thoughts based on their lies.

You are one weak-minded, useless American.

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Since when did equality become special “priveledges”? Besides Einstein, you spelled “privileges” wrong. So why should we all listen to a moron like you?

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Jay Bookman’s comparison of desegregation of the armed forces and allowing homosexuals to serve openly is extremely flawed if not downright inflammatory. Desegregation worked for one fundamental reason; there is no inherent behavioral difference between races. Indeed, the degree of command attention needed to make racial integration work is steadily declining. A far better analogy is the very broad inclusion of women in the armed forces. Integration of the men and women has worked because even as we recognize a fundamental equal value we also account for different behavior. Measures varying from separate billeting for men and women to strictly enforced rules that control sexual exploitation of subordinates or false accusations against superiors makes it work. As women have deployed more and been allowed into a much wider range of specialties, the attention paid to enforcing these rules has steadily increased. When advocates of repealing DADT decide to stop playing the race card and instead talk about how to integration homosexuals while respecting the other 98%+ of service members, I’ll be truly ready to listen. Until then, I’ve seen too many incidents during my 25 years in the service of homosexuals repeatedly propositioning roommates, exposing themselves, shower “naked talkers”, etc to pretend this isn’t a bad idea.

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