Should soldiers’ attitudes drive Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell decision? Based on Harry Truman’s example, the answer’s no
The Pentagon has commissioned a survey of more than 400,000 service members, available here, to test morale and other issues,including their reaction to a potential abolition of the Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell policy toward gay service members.
“If the law changes and we are told to implement it — and we will, if the law changes — then how do we do this in a way that makes sense?” Gates told soldiers in Korea this week. “How do we identify beforehand the problems, the issues and the challenges that we’re going to face? The kind of training requirements we’re going to need, the kinds of changes in regulations, the impact on benefits — all of these things need to be addressed in advance.”
The proposed policy change has been compared by gay-rights advocates to the historic decision by President Harry Truman in 1948 to desegregate the military. However, defenders of DADT reject that comparison and argue that Congress and the president should be guided on such matters by the sentiments of those who actually wear the uniform.
As it turns out, however, the military also surveyed its members prior to Truman’s decision, and the sentiment among troops at the time was overwhelmingly opposed to desegregation. (H/t Think Progress).
For example, one poll surveyed 2,360 white enlisted personnel in three Army divisions stationed in the South, with results broken down by the soldiers’ region of origin (North, South or Border States). It found that opposition to desegregation was strong and crossed all regional boundaries.
“White enlisted men from the North show a strong prejudice against sharing recreation, theatre or post exchange facilities with Negroes,” it found. “As would be expected, the white enlisted men from the Border States show a stronger dislike for sharing facilities with Negroes than do the Northerners, and the white enlisted men from the South show the strongest dislike at all.” (An example of the questions and reports is printed below).
Truman nonetheless decided to end segregation, a step that earned him a place of honor in civil rights history. His decision may have been influenced by other Army surveys, conducted with white officers and non-commissioned officers who had commanded black combat troops in the European Theater during WWII (a sample is also reprinted below).
Sixty-four percent of the white soldiers said they had initially opposed serving in a company that included “colored platoons,” but 77 percent said that attitude had changed for the better after actual service. In fact, fewer than 1 percent of the white soldiers reported that the colored platoons had performed poorly in combat, with more than 80 percent reporting they had done very well. Almost nine out of 10 reported that black troops had performed as well as if not better than white soldiers.
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427 comments Add your comment
Scout
July 22nd, 2010
8:00 pm
josef:
I couldn’t do that with my three wives either when I had surgery. The law is a funny thing.
Saul Good
July 22nd, 2010
8:00 pm
Scout: “Yes, abortion is the law of the land until it is changed ………..”
Keep praying… that’ll work…
mike
July 22nd, 2010
8:01 pm
Actually to be clear, Jay was an outspoken supporter of Obama’s surge in Afghanistan. He was an outspoken opponent of Bush’s successful surge in Iraq.
josef nix
July 22nd, 2010
8:02 pm
mike
Unmentionable said to tell you that Jay’s a military brat and, as one himself, that does give you a perpsective on military service…growing up in it, the military culture being your daily fare,,,
Scout
July 22nd, 2010
8:02 pm
jr:
Great ! I’ve been on five, in 26 countries and 46 states ……… so what?
LOL !!
mike
July 22nd, 2010
8:03 pm
Anyone know why Cheney’s five deferments are shameful but Biden’s five deferments are not?
Fred
July 22nd, 2010
8:03 pm
Jay
July 22nd, 2010
7:53 pm
That was HILARIOUS!!!!!!!!!
BTW one of your coworkers almost interviewed me today for an article, Steve Visser. Unfortunately I voted in the DEM primary so I didn’t fit the profile…….
Scout
July 22nd, 2010
8:03 pm
mike:
Sorry, I’m just an old jarhead. I was trying to help you out. Jay is not to be toyed with …….. he will throw a frag your way.
wet wiccan
July 22nd, 2010
8:03 pm
This is kind of off topic, but I am really interested in hearing opinions about professional military, Blackwater, mercenaries. At one time, I think we just as many “professional security personnel” serving in Iraq as we did regular military. I would especially like to hear the opinions of those of you who have served in the military? Scout? Del? AmVet?
mike
July 22nd, 2010
8:03 pm
“Unmentionable said to tell you that Jay’s a military brat and, as one himself, that does give you a perpsective on military service…growing up in it, the military culture being your daily fare,,,”
That’s great and all, but what does that have to do with anything that I have said?
Saul Good
July 22nd, 2010
8:04 pm
“What are you talking about? Jay was an outspoken advocate of the war in Afghanistan and he was an outspoken supporter of the surge. Did his children fight there?”
Iraq? The very war Cheney wanted since the day he signed on as a member of Project For A New American Century…. did you forget about THAT war? The more COSTLY war? The one that has cost more $$$ and more lives…. I’ll let Jay speak for himself…I’m just calling Dick a dick…
mike
July 22nd, 2010
8:05 pm
“Jay is not to be toyed with …….. he will throw a frag your way.”
LOL. Oh Jay is definitely to be toyed with
Don’t worry about me. Jay has decided that he will no longer respond to me. He never really gave an explanation, but it came after one of his particularly embarrassing defeats. He prefers easier targets.
Scout
July 22nd, 2010
8:06 pm
Saul Good:
Oh, it’s only been about 45 years and it tool over 200 to get rid of slavery. Give it time.
I predict that some day in the far future people will look back on those who supported the taking of an unborn child’s life in the same way we look back on those now who supported slavery.
How could those “good people” have done that ????????
Scout
July 22nd, 2010
8:06 pm
Excuse me ……….. “took over 200″
Scout
July 22nd, 2010
8:07 pm
mike:
I know.
josef nix
July 22nd, 2010
8:07 pm
mike
calling Jay a hypocrit because he hasn’t “served”
Scout
@ 8:00
Heh! Heh!
Scout
July 22nd, 2010
8:08 pm
Saul Good:
“Dick a dick”? Now don’t get upset if I call Obama a “thug” …….. will you ?
Fred
July 22nd, 2010
8:08 pm
Mike, your “reasoning” is faulty. Jay was NEVER Secretary of Defense was he? He never called for war on another Country did he? I miss your point………
josef nix
July 22nd, 2010
8:08 pm
“LOL. Oh Jay is definitely to be toyed with ”
I’m tellin’ ya, inquiring minds wanna know!!!
Scout
July 22nd, 2010
8:08 pm
josef:
I knew you would like that one.
Scout
July 22nd, 2010
8:09 pm
josef:
Stop it !!
@@
July 22nd, 2010
8:09 pm
redickulus
mike
July 22nd, 2010
8:09 pm
Saul Good –
LOL. Stop your frothing for a second and stay on topic. Nobody is debating anything about Cheney. (I love how angry liberals seem to think that screaming “Cheney” is an answer to all questions)
Stay with me. You said:
““Jay never started the drum beat leading to a war where he sent other people’s children to fight his battles… “right”???””
And I pointed out that Jay was beating the drum for war in Afghanistan and the surge afterwards. It would not be his kids sent to fight the war that he advocated.
Then you started shouting in caps about Cheney. Can you stay on topic?
Why is it OK for Jay Bookman to advocate war but not have served?
Scout
July 22nd, 2010
8:10 pm
Fred:
I think we have been in trouble ever since we changed it from “Secretary of War” don’t you?
I wish we would change it back.
@@
July 22nd, 2010
8:10 pm
I still don’t understand why the moderator won’t take the word r-i-d-i-c-u-l-o-u-s but it’ll take dick.
Saul Good
July 22nd, 2010
8:11 pm
Scout: “How could those “good people” have done that ????????”
My advice….don’t get one.
My prediction is that one day future generations will look back at how the civil rights were denied to gays…and they’ll recall just WHO denied them those rights…
Anyway…been fun as usual…. I’m outta here….
Night
Scout
July 22nd, 2010
8:11 pm
O.K. ………. I have to go set out some claymores and trip flares. Back later.
mike
July 22nd, 2010
8:11 pm
“Mike, your “reasoning” is faulty. Jay was NEVER Secretary of Defense was he? He never called for war on another Country did he? I miss your point………”
OK, so you are saying that it is unfair to call anyone who has not served as Sec of Def a chickenhawk? If so, you have a lot of folks on the left who disagree with you.
Your hair-splitting is pathetic. Jay wants to call denigrate others for doing what he does. As usual.
larry
July 22nd, 2010
8:12 pm
“Cheney”!!!!!
Jay
July 22nd, 2010
8:12 pm
yeah Fred, he told me. That’s OK, I voted in the GOP primary, so I don’t fit the profile either.
mike
July 22nd, 2010
8:12 pm
josef –
“mike
calling Jay a hypocrit because he hasn’t “served””
I am a little confused. Do you agree/disagree?
jt
July 22nd, 2010
8:13 pm
Scout
I was just explaining that I had to TEACH marines on four different continents. They get unruly at times, and they only understand certain things.
It was all fun and games then and I have the aches to prove it now. My jaw still has a weird grind at times. And a bad rib. Maybe two or three.
The Marines were an integral PART of The Navy. I’m glad we had those guys.
I’m out.
mike
July 22nd, 2010
8:14 pm
Fred -
So when guys like Bill Kristol and Sean Hannity are called “chickenhawks”, you think that is unfair?
Jay
July 22nd, 2010
8:15 pm
@@, I believe I fixed the ridiculous problem, with an assist from Josef. Test it and see.
Fred
July 22nd, 2010
8:16 pm
Scout
July 22nd, 2010
7:58 pm
Fred:
Oh, so you’re in that outfit with the U.S. on your collar so you know which army you are in ?
I see you scouted around THAT challenge. I also see you “reported” my comment. But for your information, only the officers are so stupid they need a US on their collar to know what branch of service they are in (in the army) in the marines, they have to have it stenciled on the uniform, which you would know had you really actually ever SERVED. You see, us vets who served in wars are kinda of proud of our units. We say things like “I was in the 1st Marine Division, Second battalion, echo company at Khe Son” or something like that. (note: that was a random example, I was never in the marines much less the first marine division. I don’t know if the 1st Marine division was even IN Viet Nam, much less Khe Son).
If you were REALLY a Marine, you would have come back with, “Every Marine is Infantry.” Which actually is very close to the truth. You haven’t even READ much about the Marines you are posing to be. How sad.
mike
July 22nd, 2010
8:17 pm
Saul Good –
So I guess the only answer you have for my question about Jay advocacy of military action without ever having served in the military is to whine about Cheney?
Blasphemy Jones
July 22nd, 2010
8:18 pm
ALLAH is GOD
@@
July 22nd, 2010
8:20 pm
Well I like to think I did my part in keeping Victor Hill out of the state senate. A little too close for my comfort, it was. People here in Clayton County must be gluttons for punishment.
“Short” memories, I ’spose.
@@
July 22nd, 2010
8:20 pm
ridiculous
Del
July 22nd, 2010
8:21 pm
There seems to be a good number of folks on board this evening. I wonder who would be willing to say if they served. If you’re so willing please indicate your respective branch, date of service and MOS. It would be interesting to get a head count of those who’ve served and who have weighed in on this threads topic verses those who have not but none the less share their opinion…BTW the latter is okay. If indeed you have served, then you know that military culture is the only culture which does not appreciably change over, well thousands of years. You would have had to been in the military to understand what I just said. I’ll go first USMC 1961-1967, MOS 0311 infantry and 2533 RTO. Next please.
@@
July 22nd, 2010
8:21 pm
Thank goodness, jay. I have need to use that word often when posting here.
mike
July 22nd, 2010
8:23 pm
Enter your comments here
les nessman
July 22nd, 2010
8:23 pm
so scout’s a poser….
mike
July 22nd, 2010
8:24 pm
The whole “why isn’t Jay a chickenhawk too” subject was one that Jay refused to touch before he took the cop-out of “ignoring” me. Not surprised that his even lamer supporters don’t want to touch it, so I guess I’ll head out.
Jay, I know for a fact that you are lurking here tonight. You are a “chickenhawk” if there ever was one.
Del – I never served. That’s why I don’t make judgements about who has served and who has not, unlike Jay.
Jay
July 22nd, 2010
8:25 pm
I’m confident that Scout is not a poser.
Fred
July 22nd, 2010
8:26 pm
Jay, you didn’t fit the profile because you are a member of the staff you goober lol. I didn’t fit the profile because he was looking for quotes from people who could actually VOTE in the Republican run-off. I also think he didn’t want my quote because I’m a poll manager.
Anyway, he didn’t tell you I’m a short, old, fat redneck with a big assed afro who hangs out at fruit stands did he?
josef nix
July 22nd, 2010
8:26 pm
mike
I neither agree nor disagree. Being neither a veteran nor from a military family, I have a civilian perspective. Married into a career military family and having a kid of my own who chose it as a career I have to view their perspectives and opinions quite differently than my own…
Smalls
July 22nd, 2010
8:27 pm
Del,
I served ice cream at baskins-robbins in peachtree battle shopping center from 93-95. I’m sure war is hell, but so is serving cream to a bunch of spoiled buckhead socialites….
Granny Godzilla
July 22nd, 2010
8:27 pm
While I’d like to make sure all of America’s fighting men and women felt warm and fuzzy about their time in the service of our great nation,
it’s time to completely integrate gays into the military and make it an order.
I feel safer with homosexuals than I have ever felt with homophobes.
Jay
July 22nd, 2010
8:28 pm
I didn’t get a physical description, Fred.
But now I suspect I’ll know you if I ever see you.
Del
July 22nd, 2010
8:29 pm
mike,
Thank you for your reply. You are every bit an American regardless and I commend you for your honesty and for not making presumptions. I’m sure you’ve served this country in many other ways.
Fred
July 22nd, 2010
8:29 pm
My apologies Scout. I just read Jay’s comment, and while I don’t know the dude, I mostly trust his sense of fair play. I’m kind of “new” to the blog and don’t know all the personalities. But if he feels strongly enough to comment on it, I will trust that.
Again, my apology. I’ll eat your ass up on something different.
(is it just me or do you hate REMF’s too?)
mike
July 22nd, 2010
8:29 pm
josef –
“Married into a career military family and having a kid of my own who chose it as a career I have to view their perspectives and opinions quite differently than my own…”
I am glad to hear that you have a respect for their views that Jay apparently does not
The fact that Jay’s dad served is not the same as him serving. If he wants to accuse Cheney of advocating war but not serving, then he is guilty of the same charge. He is a hypocrite.
josef nix
July 22nd, 2010
8:30 pm
Scout? A poser? Nope. What you see is what you get. And if you treat him as a gentleman, he’ll treat you as one as well…calling you everything but a child of G-d while he’s doing it, mind you, but with respect and dignity…
Del
July 22nd, 2010
8:32 pm
Smalls,
Thank you for reply. I’m sure multiple gig’s in the Nam or any where would be preferable to what you endured. I would not have had the patience.
josef nix
July 22nd, 2010
8:35 pm
Smalls
What have you got against Buckhead? Do you know how to tell the difference between real Buckhead and Buckhead wannabe?
Fred
July 22nd, 2010
8:39 pm
josef nix
July 22nd, 2010
8:30 pm
Scout? A poser? Nope.
Well that’s two. If I get a third, it’s a hat trick. Apparently I was wrong in my read of him. That rarely happens, but it DOES happen. I’m pretty full of myself, but not so full that I can’t admit when I’m wrong or made a mistake.
Oh well, either you have accepted my apology or you haven’t Scout. I’m sure you understand though. I really HATE folks who pretend they have served in combat and haven’t. I have no problem with those who haven’t served or those who served and never served in combat. Hell, I wish I had never had to kill folks or had folks trying to kill me. The “John Wayne” only takes about 30 seconds to wear off. But it is what it is.
Fred
July 22nd, 2010
8:42 pm
Jay
July 22nd, 2010
8:28 pm
I didn’t get a physical description, Fred.
But now I suspect I’ll know you if I ever see you.
Was it enough for the restraining order. LOLOLOOLOL (damn, I’m gonna post about two more days before I get frustrated enough to find out what script this site uses so I can do some emoticons…..)
jt
July 22nd, 2010
8:43 pm
Del -
Right before Desert Storm, some duty dudes came to my house in Spain and gave me two hours to show up at the QD.
They shot us up with more shots and more drugs than EVEN during hell week in boot camp. All of us had grapefruit sized lumps on our asses for two days and we couldn’t move off of our respective beds from the chills and fever.
To this day, I can’t donate blood and if I am wounded, paramedics wear hazard suits. WTF???????
(IMHO it was the combination taken ALL at once that caused GWS.). Regardless, I never had the time to hang around the VA hospital to collect.
Yea I served.
USN 86-95. Fleet Recon.
@@
July 22nd, 2010
8:43 pm
I served as secretary to Colonel Brady of the R.O.T.C..
I didn’t wear a uniform. I was, however, held against my will in an attempt to ravage my person. Some pimply faced heterosexual. Somethin’ Goodman…can’t remember his first name.
My husband served and is 100% opposed to the repeal of DADT.
Sorry, josef. We’re misfits who fit together perfectly. Gets exciting here’bouts.
Scout
July 22nd, 2010
8:44 pm
O.K. I’m back ……….. trip flares and claymores out.
Jay: Thanks for the plug ……. some people just don’t know how to debate or have fun.
Fred:
O.K. sir ………….. just to make you happy.
1) India Company, 3rd Bn., 4th Marines and later 3rd Regimental Scout-Sniper platoon and then back to the states for MP Company, Second Marine Division, Camp LeJeune, N.C..
2) Yes, the First Marine Division was there in Nam and mainly in the lower portion of I Corps. The Third Division (of which I was a part) was up in Northern I Corps near and sometimes in the DMZ.
3) No …….. every Marine is not “infantry” (you have to be an 0311 or similar MOS) but every Marine is a “rifleman” ……….. so you had it wrong.
Anything else about the Corps or Nam you want to know just ask and I will be more than happy to fill you in.
josef nix
July 22nd, 2010
8:47 pm
@@
No need to apologize…Unmentionable and I disagree a whole lot more than we agree…it gives us something to talk about…
Del
July 22nd, 2010
8:47 pm
jt,
Bless you…Always have had a deep respect for the Navy and especially Navy Corpsman who served right along side of us.
Scout
July 22nd, 2010
8:48 pm
Fred @ 8:39
Sir, no problem ! There is a copy of “Stolen Valor” sitting right here on my shelf. I have run into my share of imposters. Usually they say they were in SOG and they have no “war” record because their missions were classified. If you play dumb and ask them what SOG was they will almost always say “Special Operation Group” !
HA ! Dead give away ………. sounds cool but it was alway “Studies and Observation Group” !
Remember that ………. it might come in handy.
Ooo Rah!
Del
July 22nd, 2010
8:48 pm
@@,
Military families are in the military along with their spouse. God Bless you.
Scout
July 22nd, 2010
8:49 pm
Del/jt:
Absoultely ………….. we kid around here but a Marine infantry Navy corpsman is one of us! When the goingg is tough, we are down firing and they are up running around ……… no truer friend.
theyeshaveit
July 22nd, 2010
8:50 pm
hmmm. I see that old wrath of sour grapes mike has been about this evening.
josef nix
July 22nd, 2010
8:51 pm
Fred
Okay, Scout’s back…I was going to tell you, you might want to come in late night and share ole warrior stories…some really good ones…a great tradition. Not one myself, but I do enjoy hearing them…that’s was why I was saying Scout is many things, but all of what he is is the real deal…
theyeshaveit
July 22nd, 2010
8:52 pm
Scout,
I saw that crack about “The only service on a Cracker Jack box”. lol
But did I ever tell you that, while I was in the video game biz, I put my marine corps cousin on the box of a war simulation game? The ad appeared in Soldier of Fortune magazine.
popeye
July 22nd, 2010
8:52 pm
Daddy, what’s an MOS?
Scout
July 22nd, 2010
8:54 pm
Del:
Maybe I need to rethink some things. A midget would have made a great tunnel rat !
Scout
July 22nd, 2010
8:55 pm
popeye:
Daddy don’t know cause he never had one. Remember, he didn’t even know how to pronounce “Corpsman” (Corpseman) so how do you expect him to know anything else?
theyeshaveit
July 22nd, 2010
8:55 pm
josef,
My then fiance and I had a married couple over for dinner one evening. The husband said, “Lisa and I always disagree.” Said Lisa almost immediately, “No, we don’t!”
@@
July 22nd, 2010
8:55 pm
My husband’s reading that book, “Stolen Valor”. Sho ‘NUFF gets his hackles up.
Scout
July 22nd, 2010
8:55 pm
theyeshavit:
HA ! I bet he liked that !
josef nix
July 22nd, 2010
8:57 pm
eyes
theyeshaveit
July 22nd, 2010
8:58 pm
Scout,
He was based down at Pendleton. His buddies were giving him the treatment calling him “GQ! GQ!”. lol
Scout
July 22nd, 2010
8:58 pm
@@:
Yep, but unfortunately some Federal judge somewhere this week just ruled against that new law. Said it was “free speech” to say/pretent you were in the military even if you were not.
Here it is ……….. sure hope the government appeals.
http://www.jdnews.com/news/bodycopyrag-80677-class-ruling.html
BTW ……… this shows you can find a knucklehead judge anywhere.
Del
July 22nd, 2010
8:58 pm
Scout,
Thank you for your reply even though I was aware. The First Marine Div. was involved against the First Viet Cong Div. in operation Starlight August 1965, actually the first Battalion sized operation of the war. The First V.C. was comprised of veterans of the war against the French and against Japanese forces in WWII. They were main line Viet Cong force, pretty much NVA. The First Marine Division destroyed the 2nd. NVA Div. In the Spring and fall of 1967. Operations Union One and Two.
BADA BING
July 22nd, 2010
8:59 pm
Scout, about Ft. Mac last night. I grew up near there, played all over that fort. My late wife was the secretary of the big muckity-muck over the civilian side. I used to laugh to see all the officers show her plenty of respect because of the boss. I have always had a soft spot for the military because of those memories.
Scout
July 22nd, 2010
8:59 pm
Got to go out for about an hour …………….be back.
Hillbilly Deluxe
July 22nd, 2010
9:00 pm
A little story on service rivalries and toughness.
Daddy was in the Army in Japan, 1946-47. His division was scheduled to get to Tokyo for leave and of course, they were all looking forward to it. At the same time, units were being rotated over from Europe. He said the 101st Airborne was scheduled to come into Tokyo and let it be known that they were the top dogs and would be running things, when they got there. The 20th Mechanized Cavalry got wind of this and took great exception to it. According to Daddy, shortly after the 101st arrived, they met up with the 20th in the streets (and probably bars) of Tokyo, and a pretty much, full-scale riot ensued. Squadrons of MP’s were called in and quite a few wound up in the stockade. It seems the 20th could give as could as they could take. I guess the moral of the story is, when you think you’re the baddest of the bad, there’s always a faster gun. And after that, leaves in Tokyo were curtailed and Daddy’s division never did get to go.
I had a cousin who was 82nd Airborne and he seemed to sort of resent the attention the 101st got. As he said, “I was at Normandy and the Battle of the Bulge, too”.
Fred
July 22nd, 2010
9:04 pm
jt: Isn’t it weird about those shots? Technically you are in trouble for even admitting you got them. I was told the same thing though. WHen I had my first child, my wife had read enough to be scared our daughter would have three heads or something. i can’t say I wasn’t thinking hte same thing though I didn’t tell her that until later (after teh baby was born we did the truth time thing).
Scout: Glad we’re all cool on that. I’ll bust your ass on things other than service and you can bust mine you freaking mindless jarhead (don’t tell anyone but some of my best friends have been jarheads. It’s all cool though, I talk slowly and use small words when I’m around them
)
@@
July 22nd, 2010
9:08 pm
Said it was “free speech” to say/pretend you were in the military even if you were not
That’s ridiculous!!! So now it’s legal to lie, mislead and misrepresent.
Politician’s will love it.
theyeshaveit
July 22nd, 2010
9:10 pm
Hillbilly,
OK, I got a funny military story for you.
I saw duty with the Air Force at Wakkanai Air Station in Japan. It was a very remote area and there was not always a lot of activity going on during a graveyard shift. So, with a little time on our hands and a new guy (called a “jeep”) coming in we used to tease them pretty bad. We used to sit in front of very expensive electronic equipment. When a jeep sat down next to you for training, we’d invariably reach a moment when we’d say to him, “Damn it. You broke it! Get your a** over to maintenance and ask them for a fallopian tube right away! Now!” The scared jeep would run to maintenance and request the bogus part. Of course, maintenance was in on all this and would carefully place some worn out vacuum tube into the jeep’s hand. That jeep would come back with the “fallopian tube” and we’d all break out laughing. and call him one stupid mutha f***er.
theyeshaveit
July 22nd, 2010
9:11 pm
Fred,
It’s worse for me. I have relatives who were jarheads.
Logical Dude
July 22nd, 2010
9:11 pm
sorry, no casserole, made hot dogs.
I couldn’t go in the military due to medical issues, but my father was a naval aviator who stayed in 30 years. So,yep, I’m a brat.
barking frog
July 22nd, 2010
9:13 pm
Don’t Ask Don’t Terminate ordered by the Commander in Chief makes this argument
history
theyeshaveit
July 22nd, 2010
9:13 pm
josef,
Are you here? I read your comments about the silver fox from yesterday. My wife had told me, but I had not known. And black t-shirts are cool, huh?
zeke
July 22nd, 2010
9:14 pm
Sorry Jay, NOT THE SAME!!!! I say NO, NEVER, NEVER! YOU LIBERAL SCUM AND THE LIBERAL SOCIALIST SCUM IN DC MUST STOP USING THE MILITARY AS A SOCIAIST EXPERIMENT AND LET THEM DO WHAT THEY ARE TRAINED TO DO: BREAK THING AND KILL THE ENEMY!!!!
theyeshaveit
July 22nd, 2010
9:16 pm
zeke, zeke, breathe into a brown paper bag, will you?
Jack C. Brown
July 22nd, 2010
9:26 pm
How many respondents advocating eliminating “don’t ask, don’t tell” have ever served in the military? Not very damn many, yet they want to make/change/amend directives that won’t affect them in any way. Brilliant, just brilliant. Join the military, then have your say after serving for 3 or 4 years.
theyeshaveit
July 22nd, 2010
9:29 pm
Jack C. Brown,
I did serve 4 years. And there are a number of others here who have served. We do not all agree on this issue, but we have all served in the military.
Del
July 22nd, 2010
9:32 pm
Jack C.
My point exactly. Everyone’s entitled to their opinion but they should say that they make their opinion, while not having actually served and therefore can’t assume anything about the inner culture.
Del
July 22nd, 2010
9:46 pm
Okay time to tally up. It appears that very few on this blog have actually served in the military on active duty. I won’t call out by blog handle those who have, because most know anyway from previous threads. Some have indicated that they haven’t served but would not presume the feelings of those who have and some have indicated that they are or were military families. So it would seem in the aggregate that Jay’s opinion blog does not have sufficient creditable real world representation to make any statement in favor of repealing DADT. Enjoy the evening. Taps
josef nix
July 22nd, 2010
9:50 pm
eyes
Yeah, I’m still here. Digesting certain things other than meat loaf, mashed potatoes and fried green tomatoes. Jewcowboy told me about him. Had not known that before. See how insidious we are? We’ve even snuk into CNN and, ever fashion conscious…
josef nix
July 22nd, 2010
9:52 pm
Okay, military men…
I will posit speaking from my own boy’s viewpoint as currently serving…yep, and you’re all old farts and not there now…a different world than the one you left behind you…
theyeshaveit
July 22nd, 2010
9:53 pm
Josef,
I am glad it’s not the Franco-American ravioli tonight.
Fred
July 22nd, 2010
9:56 pm
Well this was quick. I have to disagree with you on the stolen valor law. Let me explain. To quote from the article you posted;
“Sterner said many phonies who ultimately don medals without authorization begin by stretching the truth about their exploits verbally or in writing.”
ok, I’m all with you on the wearing of a uniform or decorations you weren’t issued, but…….. most people stretch the truth a little when talking, especially if they are drunk. Also perspectives of people are a tad bit different with any event. That’s why police officers don’t want eye witnesses, they want physical evidence. That part of the proposed law is too broad. i might tell people I was Gi Joe, special forces, ranger, ninja qualified in a joking manner, but under that law, I would be guilty of “stolen valor.”.
But the truth be told, I did things that never appeared on any DD214 form. I have four certificates signed by the Colonel for decorations that aren’t on any DD214 because the PAC clerk did the certificate, the Colonel signed it, and I was awarded the medal from battalion in a formal formation, but the PAC clerk never submitted it up the chain. I “found out” I didn’t have these decorations because I PCS’ed and when I got to my new duty station they weren’t on my DD214. (I learned later he went to Leavenworth because I wasn’t the only one he did this to, but the Army never changed my DD214 because of it). So I actually HAVE the medals, AND the “certificates” (they are in a damn box somewhere, I don’t know why I even keep them still) so by even mentioning them now, under that law I am guily of “stolen valor.”
I found a lot of the record keeping in the Army rather lax. The only time it was perfect is when they wanted to stick something up your ass. THEN every I was dotted and every T was crossed. I never wore a decoration on my uniform that wasn’t on my DD214, but by the same token, I’ve never been able to wear every decoration I was awarded.
red
July 22nd, 2010
9:58 pm
Reminds of that time in Bogart, GA during band camp, seems the wind section had the horn section outnumbered and outflanked with some water baloons. A sophomore, probably the bravest trumpeter in Georgia, made a beeline to the supply cabinet and returned with some baloon packets. The rest of this story is classified.