Should soldiers’ attitudes drive Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell decision? Based on Harry Truman’s example, the answer’s no

The Pentagon has commissioned a survey of more than 400,000 service members, available here, to test morale and other issues,including their reaction to a potential abolition of the Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell policy toward gay service members.

“If the law changes and we are told to implement it — and we will, if the law changes — then how do we do this in a way that makes sense?” Gates told soldiers in Korea this week. “How do we identify beforehand the problems, the issues and the challenges that we’re going to face? The kind of training requirements we’re going to need, the kinds of changes in regulations, the impact on benefits — all of these things need to be addressed in advance.”

The proposed policy change has been compared by gay-rights advocates to the historic decision by President Harry Truman in 1948 to desegregate the military. However, defenders of DADT reject that comparison and argue that Congress and the president should be guided on such matters by the sentiments of those who actually wear the uniform.

As it turns out, however, the military also surveyed its members prior to Truman’s decision, and the sentiment among troops at the time was overwhelmingly opposed to desegregation. (H/t Think Progress).

For example, one poll surveyed 2,360 white enlisted personnel in three Army divisions stationed in the South, with results broken down by the soldiers’ region of origin (North, South or Border States). It found that opposition to desegregation was strong and crossed all regional boundaries.

“White enlisted men from the North show a strong prejudice against sharing recreation, theatre or post exchange facilities with Negroes,” it found. “As would be expected, the white enlisted men from the Border States show a stronger dislike for sharing facilities with Negroes than do the Northerners, and the white enlisted men from the South show the strongest dislike at all.” (An example of the questions and reports is printed below).

Truman nonetheless decided to end segregation, a step that earned him a place of honor in civil rights history. His decision may have been influenced by other Army surveys, conducted with white officers and non-commissioned officers who had commanded black combat troops in the European Theater during WWII (a sample is also reprinted below).

Sixty-four percent of the white soldiers said they had initially opposed serving in a company that included “colored platoons,” but 77 percent said that attitude had changed for the better after actual service. In fact, fewer than 1 percent of the white soldiers reported that the colored platoons had performed poorly in combat, with more than 80 percent reporting they had done very well. Almost nine out of 10 reported that black troops had performed as well as if not better than white soldiers.

racepoll

combat

427 comments Add your comment

RW-(the original)

July 22nd, 2010
4:41 pm

I couldn’t figure out why we had this instead of music and then I realized it’s only Thursday.

Hillbilly Deluxe

July 22nd, 2010
4:44 pm

RW

Don’t feel bad. When you made that comment earlier about the music, I went and checked the calender. Thought I’d lost a day. :lol:

Doggone/GA

July 22nd, 2010
4:44 pm

“then I realized it’s only Thursday.”

Must be something in the air. I almost said “have a nice weekend” to someone a few minutes ago.

@@

July 22nd, 2010
4:47 pm

Uhmmm, jay?

The proposed policy change has been compared by gay-rights advocates to the historic decision by President Harry Truman in 1948 to desegregate the military.

There’s a hole in that comparison.

RW-(the original)

July 22nd, 2010
4:48 pm

Well why don’t we just declare it Friday?

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

July 22nd, 2010
4:49 pm

A House investigative committee has charged New York Rep. Charles Rangel, the former chairman of the House Ways and Means Committee, with multiple ethics violations.

What about the other 300 or so unindicted dummycrat CongressKreatures, when we gonna put them in the docket?

Doggone/GA

July 22nd, 2010
4:49 pm

“Well why don’t we just declare it Friday?”

Be nice if we could…but I’m afraid it would be too much like the “how many legs does a dog have, if you call a tail a leg?”

ty webb

July 22nd, 2010
4:49 pm

Jay,
more importantly, what does shirley sherrod think of this issue?

@@

July 22nd, 2010
4:50 pm

Declare it Friday?

No thanks, it’s too late to get out and cut the grass. Da bugs’ll eat me up.

Tomorrow morning is just fine.

RW-(the original)

July 22nd, 2010
4:50 pm

I bet a lot of people reading this will think that everything was always segregated and then Truman tried to correct that. Don’t overlook Woodrow Wilson’s role in segregating things in the first place

Scout

July 22nd, 2010
4:50 pm

Jay:

Talk about ME repeating myself. How many times are you going to bring this one up ?

O.K. I forgot, it’s your blog.

By the way, you do a terrible disservice to blacks by putting their skin color in the same category as sexual perversion. You really should be ashamed but ……… I know you are not.

Kamchak

July 22nd, 2010
4:51 pm

Should soldiers’ attitudes drive Don’t Ask, Don’t Tell decision?

No.

Like any other employee, if they don’t like the policy, there’s the door.

Scout

July 22nd, 2010
4:52 pm

P.S. to Jay:

Don’t forget the soldiers do have one decision that even YOU can’t mess with ………..

The decision to enlist or re-enlist.

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

July 22nd, 2010
4:53 pm

Yeah, just what we need, a bunch of Nancys in the Armed Forces, make love, not war, right kookman?

RW-(the original)

July 22nd, 2010
4:53 pm

@@,

I cut mine last night and I think the mosquitoes were pushing the mower as much as I was. Thought about calling you since you love to cut grass and all

@@

July 22nd, 2010
4:56 pm

I say don’t be afraid to let the captive audience fill out the questionnaire. We may be surprised by their verdict.

Like any other employee, if they don’t like the policy, there’s the door.

Taking into account that gays are a small percentage of the population, and coupling that with the fact that the greater majority of that small percentage have no interest in serving, I believe that running the risk of losing people, is the DoD’s greatest concern.

Scooter

July 22nd, 2010
4:56 pm

Like any other employee, if they don’t like the policy, there’s the door

You don’t just quit the military! :roll:

Soothsayer

July 22nd, 2010
4:57 pm

Why the economy isn’t recovering

The economy from the mid-90’s to August 2007 was defined by cheap money and easy credit. Everyone took on more and more debt in order to speculate on asset values, first stocks, then housing. As asset prices kept going up, credit based on those overvalued assets got easier to obtain.

Once everyone is “in”, when the number of new speculators runs dry, prices begin to fall. “Weak hands”, such as subprime borrows, begin to default. Speculators try to dump assets, but the number of suckers aren’t enough to buy up all the excess supply. Prices collapse. As asset values drop, so does liquidity, because everyone runs to cash in order to cover their bad debts. That includes the banking system.

This is where we are now. Note how housing prices have fallen, but the debt behind those houses remains despite an avalanche of bankruptcies and foreclosures. The economy is overloaded with bad debts that will never be paid. The government stepped in to stop the collapse of these asset values in order to save the banking system that made the stupid loans. This transferred some of the bad private debt to public pockets. The bad debt didn’t go away. It merely changed locations. The economy is still burdened with it.

It is for this reason why the Cash4Klunkers program and the Federal Home Tax Credit were so ineffective as stimulus. The programs merely induced consumers to go more heavily into debt by buying overpriced assets.

The only way the economy can move on and start growing again is if: a) the debt is paid off, or b) the debt is defaulted on.

It is this choice that is being decided now. The sudden concern about public deficits is a reflection of the power of the holders of that bad debt – the wealthy class.

Hard Reality 101: wonder why things aren’t getting better? Read this.

Here it is again for anyone with a few minutes to spend and a thirst for the truth.

theyeshaveit

July 22nd, 2010
4:58 pm

Scout, I answered you down stairs. I have to boogie now.

Doggone/GA

July 22nd, 2010
4:58 pm

“You don’t just quit the military!”

No, maybe not right away…but you can always not re-inlist.

Bill

July 22nd, 2010
4:59 pm

“If the law changes and we are told to implement it — and we will, if the law changes — then how do we do this in a way that makes sense?”

What’s to ‘make sense’ of? If a gay service member comes out as gay, NO LONGER FIRE THEM.

How simple is that?

Jeez, perhaps we should be taking a heterosexual survey instead. Or at the very least, an IQ test.

josef nix

July 22nd, 2010
5:00 pm

Well, if the initial response here is any indication of the general population, they don’t really give a sh*t and had rather talk about the weekend. That’s a good thing!

Did anybody else read the survey?

Kamchak

July 22nd, 2010
5:01 pm

You don’t just quit the military!

And the military is not a democracy, it’s about being trained to do what you’re told to do.

Everyone who enlisted should have known that from the outset.

Hootinanny Yum Yum

July 22nd, 2010
5:02 pm

Unemployment numbers continue to increase (metro Atlanta up to 10.3)
Fed watchdog says that home foreclosure bailout not working
Charlie Rangel charged with multiple ethics violations

And the best you can do is beat the DADT drum?

RW-(the original)

July 22nd, 2010
5:02 pm

Well, if the initial response here is any indication….

HEY!

Doggone/GA

July 22nd, 2010
5:03 pm

“it’s about being trained to do what you’re told to do”

But not 100%. Soldiers are also trained that they have a duty to NOT obey an illegal command.

saywhat?

July 22nd, 2010
5:03 pm

This is all well and good until there is a gay guy in the shower lookin’ at somebody elses business, and goes all trying to recruit others to the lifestyle and such. The US Armed forces can whip Nazis, eliminate communists, annihilate terrorists, but good God! Don’t infiltrate them with gays! The entire US war machine will collapse! Dodging bullets, high explosives, suicide bombers etc is bravery enough. There is no need to have to serve alongside gays. That is way to tough a test of courage for our fighting men. They just won’t be able to handle it and Obama’s secret socialist plan to dismantle the military and turn us all into secret Muslims will come to fruition.

josef nix

July 22nd, 2010
5:04 pm

RW

Okay, then, the initial resonseS… :-)

josef nix

July 22nd, 2010
5:05 pm

oops
resPonseS…oy!

Del

July 22nd, 2010
5:05 pm

There is no corollary Between race and sexual preference. I think Gates is being prudent in carefully testing (hope carefully) the impact this repeal could have on troop morale, recruitment and reenlistment. Since we have an all volunteer military any miscalculation could prove extremely dangerous.

TaxPayer

July 22nd, 2010
5:05 pm

The key to this study is to be able to see that in each region of the country, the percentage of moderates is essentially constant and that the issues in all cases is strictly on the left and right fringes.

@@

July 22nd, 2010
5:05 pm

RW:

Did it look BeeUtiful after your hard work? Do you cut with the contours? I do. It’s like completing a work of green art to me. Of course, there’s that faint spray of brown dust that adorns anything within distance of the dead spots…which, of course, includes me, my dress, my hair, my bandanner. The only part of me that escapes the spray is where my sunglasses reside.

I, too, am BeeUtiful when I’m done.

Call me anytime. I LUV IT! without the bugs.

Logical Dude

July 22nd, 2010
5:06 pm

Scout,
For a theoretical situation, Say your son and/or daughter came up to you and said that they were gay. Would you:
1) wonder how they got perverted, never talk to them again
2) accept them, and hope they “change their mind”
3) accept them, and support their decision
4) congratulate them, support their right to marry freely, serve their country freely, and live without bias against them
5) something else?

The point I am making is that this has been the same situation that has been going on for ages. Did you watch Fiddler on the Roof? What was his reaction when his children married “outside the norm”?

Your previous arguments fall well short since a great majority of the country do not see gayness as “perversion.” If there was no “sexual” action, would you still feel the same way? Just a loving couple being married? or having someone server openly and honorably shoulder to shoulder with the next soldier/marine/sailor/airman?

I understand where you are coming from, I used to be there. I’ve met many who are gay, and it is NOT something they choose. It is a God-given trait.

Doggone/GA

July 22nd, 2010
5:06 pm

“This is all well and good until there is a gay guy in the shower”

Well…”they” are there NOW. It’s not currently illegal for gays to serve, it’s only illegal for them to “come out” openly. So how’s that “in the shower” bit working out NOW?

Kamchak

July 22nd, 2010
5:06 pm

But not 100%. Soldiers are also trained that they have a duty to NOT obey an illegal command.

Granted.

But I think it is perfectly legal to order soldiers to serve along side openly gay service members.

larry

July 22nd, 2010
5:07 pm

Please, for God’s sake, vote for Russell Edwards in November and get this useless clown, Paul Broun, out of the house.

http://blogs.ajc.com/political-insider-jim-galloway/2010/07/22/paul-broun-tom-graves-oppose-bill-to-ban-crush-videos-of-animals/

Kamchak

July 22nd, 2010
5:08 pm

This is all well and good until there is a gay guy in the shower lookin’ at somebody elses business, and goes all trying to recruit others to the lifestyle and such.

That’s not where gays come from.

It’s infectious cooties.

Doggone/GA

July 22nd, 2010
5:09 pm

“But I think it is perfectly legal to order soldiers to serve along side openly gay service members”

I’m not quite sure I get your point, but to point out…it is currently ILLEGAL to order soldiers to serve with openly gay service members. Is that what you meant to say?

AmVet

July 22nd, 2010
5:09 pm

You gotta hand it to them, the human rights hating xenophobes are consistently delusional. They were delusional in 1948, they were delusional in 1993 and they are yet again delusional in 2010.

Stuck on stupid…

RW-(the original)

July 22nd, 2010
5:10 pm

@@,

Not only is it a beautiful green work of art it also has all sorts of orange circles, blue lines, and yellow arrows on it. For some reason the county paints all the yards here about once a month giving the impression that something else might be happening, but the only guy that ever shows up is the yard and street painter.

Hootinanny Yum Yum

July 22nd, 2010
5:10 pm

A lawful order is not illegal, immoral or unsafe.

Scooter

July 22nd, 2010
5:10 pm

No, maybe not right away…but you can always not re-inlist.

You are right Doggone. I don’t think it is much to worry about though.If someone wants to make a career out of the military the DADT policy being dropped won’t make any diffrence. IMHO

Kamchak

July 22nd, 2010
5:11 pm

I’m not quite sure I get your point, but to point out…it is currently ILLEGAL to order soldiers to serve with openly gay service members.

Well, it shouldn’t be.

josef nix

July 22nd, 2010
5:12 pm

Okay, evidently I’m so far the only one who went and read the survey. Pretty standard stuff you would want to know EXCEPT there’s this l-o-o-o-g section about close quarters and it doesn’t just leave it there…it has to include the showers as something distinct…say what? L-rd, breeders sure have a fascination with showers! Can somebody inform me as to why?

Kamchak

July 22nd, 2010
5:14 pm

L-rd, breeders sure have a fascination with showers! Can somebody inform me as to why?

That’s where the cooties are.

Doggone/GA

July 22nd, 2010
5:14 pm

“Well, it shouldn’t be”

And hopefully, soon, it won’t be

Hillbilly Deluxe

July 22nd, 2010
5:14 pm

You don’t just quit the military!

Unless, of course, you’re a General or an Admiral, then you can resign your commission and retire.

Logical Dude

July 22nd, 2010
5:15 pm

My prediction for DADT being changed:

Not much affect. A few misunderstandings where straight soldiers are mistaken for gays, but for the most part, gays serving openly and honorably only strengthens the military. *I* would not want someone protecting my country to have to worry about whether they can talk to their partner at home without being “outed”.

Serving openly and honorably. That’s the point here.

Scooter

July 22nd, 2010
5:16 pm

And the military is not a democracy, it’s about being trained to do what you’re told to do.

I take it you have not been in the military! Quit while you are behind dude.

TaxPayer

July 22nd, 2010
5:16 pm

That’s where the cooties are.

And they live in the water.

Doggone/GA

July 22nd, 2010
5:16 pm

“Can somebody inform me as to why?”

Not being either gay or male (this seems to be an almost exclusively male issue) I can only say that while everyone knows that being black doesn’t “rub off” on white people, too many men (in particular) think it IS possible to “turn someone gay” and it might happen to THEM.

Just a guess.

Mr. Snarky

July 22nd, 2010
5:17 pm

You said it Jay…the military is all about top down leadership…opinions of the rank and file don’t matter. If they did, the military wouldn’t work.

Logical Dude

July 22nd, 2010
5:18 pm

josef nix,
Showers are traditionally places where you can do what the guy from “American Beauty” did in his shower. So, of course, there’s a lot of talk about showers.

I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...

July 22nd, 2010
5:18 pm

yosef- I made it to the part where kookman parasite attached itself to the racial discrimination of African Americans and then I wretched.

Comparing a genuine struggle to how you prefer to get your jollies is so liberal like.

It is their little world that we all live in…

JohnnyReb

July 22nd, 2010
5:20 pm

I put in 4 years of military duty in the late 60’s but I do not pretend to know today’s military. I do know comparing DADT to segregation seems ridiculous. My way or the highway won’t work in an ALL VOLUNTEER service, so members should have a voice in DADT policy changes. The bigger question is, will Obama make the change even if the majority of military is agasint it? The answer to that is yes, the arrogant Bast— thinks he knows better than you or I.

Logical Dude

July 22nd, 2010
5:20 pm

Proper response from an unwelcome stare in the shower:
“I appreciate you checking me out dude, but I don’t go there.”

Doggone/GA

July 22nd, 2010
5:22 pm

“thinks he knows better than you or I”

hate to burst your little bubble..but this is not Obama’s decision to make. It needs to come from all those arrogant bastards in Congress first.

Logical Dude

July 22nd, 2010
5:22 pm

JohnnyReb says “The answer to that is yes”

Of course it is, because it’s the right thing to do. You want a serviceman to serve openly and honorably.

I’m missing why that is such a bad thing?

josef nix

July 22nd, 2010
5:22 pm

IR/YW
Now, I must admit, I’d be scared to be in a shower with you…you might want to just talk… :-)

josef nix

July 22nd, 2010
5:24 pm

Johnny
The change is scheduled for December..AFTER the midterms…don’t want DADT rubbing off in them tight races! :-)

Doggone/GA

July 22nd, 2010
5:24 pm

“but I don’t go there”

Saw a quote not too long ago (sorry don’t remember where) from a soldier whose sentiment was along the lines of: “if a guy saves my ass, he sure as hell can look at it”

TaxPayer

July 22nd, 2010
5:26 pm

Well, if they had co-ed showers, then you could look all you want and no one would likely know who you was lookin’ at. I see it as a win-win.

Gator Joe

July 22nd, 2010
5:26 pm

Jay,
When one volunteers, that’s the only way in now, for the military, he or she agree to follow all legal orders. Normalizing service for gays and lesbians, who have served honorably, some with distinction in the past, is long overdue. The Commander in Chief should order it done, period. There will always be individuals who don’t wish to serve with gays and lesbians, or blacks, or hispanics, or Jews, or women. For them, don’t enter the recruiter’s door, and as for those already serving, when their service tour is completed, find the exit door.

PS
I served the better part of four years, USMC

RW-(the original)

July 22nd, 2010
5:27 pm

josef,

Every time I see the shower chatter it reminds me of the movie MASH where sexual preference made no difference. When it was Painless Pole in the shower day everybody wanted a look.

Fred

July 22nd, 2010
5:28 pm

@, @@: Aren’t ypou SUPPOSED to cut your grass near dark in the summer so the tender cuts can heal overnight and take advantage ot the dew rather than burn and sizzle all day?

@Scout: Actually I disagree with your 4:50. Looked at dispassionately, both are SOCIAL issues. Back in 1948, many whites thought blacks were a “perversion” or “sub human.” In reallity though, neither skin color nor sexual preference is contagious. Gays have been in the military, in EVERY military since OG first got Mog and Thog to band together and chuck rocks at Ug, Mug, and Thug from the next ravine over.

AT issue is whether or not to let them “come out of the closet.”

Del

July 22nd, 2010
5:28 pm

I think the conclusion of this DOD study will reveal that repeal of DADT would not be compatible with our current all volunteer military policy. Implementation would require reinstating the draft. The risk to maintaining adequate troop levels, particularly in the Army/ Marine Corps combat arms would be too great of a national security risk. Obama with continuing loss in job approval along with lost Dem seats in congress by year end will cause this issue to fade for awhile.

Doggone/GA

July 22nd, 2010
5:29 pm

“The Commander in Chief should order it done, period”

He can’t. It’s a law, and it needs to be either changed or repealed by Congress.

Jay

July 22nd, 2010
5:29 pm

josef nix

July 22nd, 2010
5:30 pm

I was talking to my serviceman boy about this. He said the subject was being brought up and one of his peers was going on and on about the showers and what HE’d do if…my boy says before he could say anything, the rest of them had started laughing and when Blushing Bubba wanted to know “well, what’s so funny.” He says one of the rowdier of the lot, know for his womanizing, says, “Bubba what makes you thing some f*g would be interested in yore flabby a33 and pot gut?” My boy says that the conversation then turned to who “would have something to worry about.” Says they all were cutting glances at one of their number who, as the survey puts it, they “believed to be homosexual.” Says he laughed, “what you looking at me for. I ain’t asking and I certainly ain’t telling!”

Doggone/GA

July 22nd, 2010
5:31 pm

“Implementation would require reinstating the draft”

Why? The volunteer army is serving with gays as we speak.

Scooter

July 22nd, 2010
5:35 pm

Gator Joe

July 22nd, 2010
5:26 pm

I agree with you for the most part but think the decision is for the Military to make, not the CinC considering he never served. USAF

Bosch

July 22nd, 2010
5:35 pm

“Implementation would require reinstating the draft.”

Oh, bs – that’s just to skeer up the homophobes.

JohnnyReb

July 22nd, 2010
5:36 pm

Logical Dude – the “right” thing to do is subjective. Now, don’t go claiming moral superiority. I personally would not change DADT, but if today’s soliders are OK with it then I am. What I don’t like is the predetermined decision based on political payback.

Josef, I think the cat is out of the bag on this one. Only the completely uniformed will not be reminded of the hijinks when voting in Nov.

Doggone/GA

July 22nd, 2010
5:36 pm

“not the CinC considering he never served”

Not to worry, for the THIRD TIME, it’s not HIS decision to make. It’s a LAW and has to be changed or repealed by CONGRESS.

Fred

July 22nd, 2010
5:36 pm

joseph? what does a33 mean? Is that an new gay code for ass or something, or is it a new word for man boobs? Given the context it was hard to tell………

Just a tip for all though: in the infantry, gay ‘humor” is rampant. When you have to be in as close contact with your buddies as you have to be in the Infantry, the jokes are bound to happen, and they do. It’s hard to explain to a civilian or a REMF.

Doggone/GA

July 22nd, 2010
5:38 pm

“What I don’t like is the predetermined decision based on political payback.”

WHAT “predetermined decision”? Congress has not even voted on it yet, let alone passed it to be signed.

@@

July 22nd, 2010
5:40 pm

josef:

I just got thru reading it.

First section? How’s military life been for ‘ya so far? Any problems? How well did your unit function as a team?

Committed to their answers. Then….

Have you ever served with someone you believed to be gay…blah blah blah?

Well, yeah, there was this guy/gal, who I thought was. It goes on…

If DADT is repealed how will this effect…blah blah blah?

If, in the first, section, they offered praise for their unit, then they’ve admitted all is well regardless of whether they suspected someone of being gay.

My personal opinion is the whole thing should have been kept under wraps. Send out the first section without the subsequent sections as they apply to serving with gays. If in the subsequent sections they change their tunes only to find out that they’ve been serving with gays all along, they can experience an ah ha moment. Can’t go back and change their original opinions now, can they?

The only problem I foresee, is when they get to the part about how the leadership would deal with things. Would all things be equal? That could be a problem.

Then, of course, there’s that “inflammatory” word throughout. H-O-M-O-S-E-X-U-A-L.

Even you said it was silly to declare the word inflammatory.

This post probably doesn’t make any sense to anyone but me.

JohnnyReb

July 22nd, 2010
5:41 pm

Bosch, I have not been on for a while but noticed your absence when browsing. Don’t know where you have been, but obviously it was not a conservative workshop!

AmVet

July 22nd, 2010
5:41 pm

Trust me paranoid xenophobes, none of those gays would ever want to ____ you anyway. They’re gay not blind.

Logical Dude

July 22nd, 2010
5:41 pm

JohnnyReb,
I’m basing “right thing to do” based on historical results. Was it right to let anyone from any religion serve? Yup. Was it right to let anyone from any race serve? Yup.
Again, What am I missing?
What is wrong with a person serving openly and honorably?

josef nix

July 22nd, 2010
5:41 pm

JAY
Thanks…that WAS very interesting…also, I did not know that had been done…the findings, though, don’t surprise me…much the same sentiment still prevails…just post something on the state of Israel and see just how entrenched those attitudes are still…

JohnnyReb

July 22nd, 2010
5:42 pm

Doggone, your kidding, right?

Del

July 22nd, 2010
5:43 pm

“Why? The volunteer army is serving with gays as we speak”

Would you happen to know how many are currently serving by branch and MOS? Do you know if there are homosexuals in sufficient numbers that open open homosexuality wouldn’t be viewed as anything particularly different to the average G.I.? Or are you just sharing your opinion of what you think may be the case.

JohnnyReb

July 22nd, 2010
5:45 pm

Logical Dude – no problem with openly and honorably. My only concern is what changing DADT might do to the all volunteer force. If changing DADT because it is the “right” thing to do causes problems within the ranks and enlistment, then it was not the “right” thing to do.

Jay

July 22nd, 2010
5:45 pm

I disagree Josef. Disagreements with the policies of the state of Israel do not equate with or connote anti-Semitism.

@@

July 22nd, 2010
5:47 pm

Fred:

It takes me anywhere from six to eight hours to cut my grass. It’s not a small patch, it’s close to four acres, not including the roadfront. There’s not enough light if I wait until early evening.

I refuse to use headlights on a lawnmower.

It’s grass for crying out loud. If I’m willing to get scorched maintaining it, then it needs to adapt to my way of doing things.

Bosch

July 22nd, 2010
5:47 pm

Hey Reb,

Nah, having family problems right now, I’ve had to check out this week to take care of them. I’m checking in now for some laughs and to get my mind off some things.

Jay

July 22nd, 2010
5:47 pm

There are no doubt some supporters of the state of Israel in this country who are anti-Semitic, and many many critics of the state of Israel who are not.

By your implication, every Israeli citizen who disagrees with the Likudniks is a self hating Jew.

Scooter

July 22nd, 2010
5:47 pm

Please let me rephrase Doggone since you like to split hairs! I think Congress should take the advice of the Military and not the CinC on DADT. Feel better now?

josef nix

July 22nd, 2010
5:49 pm

Fred
I know it’s not moderated now, but it’s sort of my poke at the Blue Nosed B*tch moderator g-ddess!

@@
That was pretty much my overall view of it myself. It’s one of the reasons I pooh-pooh’d the whole thing to begin with. It’s a poll. They could have cut it down to “Is you skeered of f*gs?” And still have gotten the same results… ISH

Scout

July 22nd, 2010
5:50 pm

Logical Dude @ 5:06 :

Good question but this is an easy one …………..

I would tell him the same thing if he said he was in a gay relationship or had been cheating on his wife and wanted to get a divorce and marry this new woman or any number of other life situations where he may be going down a wrong road :

1) Son you know I love you and want what’s best for you.
2) You also know this is wrong and not in God’s will for your life.
3) I will help you in any way I can to not get involved or get out of this emotionally, spiritually and even phystically destructive lifestyle.

I could go on and on but you get the picture ……….. tough love even if he is an adult.

Logical Dude

July 22nd, 2010
5:50 pm

JohnnyReb,
What problems do you foresee? Someone not getting tossed out of the military because an ex-lover tells the CO?
The military has done this before, where an “outside class” is suddenly officially welcomed. There will be minor events early on, but in the end, equality will prevail.
It’s the right thing to do.

Jackie

July 22nd, 2010
5:52 pm

UCMJ says that have sex, even off-duty and consenting adults, is prohibited.

Bosch

July 22nd, 2010
5:52 pm

Scout,

“1) Son you know I love you and want what’s best for you.”

That’s really all you would need to say – and you really don’t need to speak for God.

AmVet

July 22nd, 2010
5:53 pm

More than two dozen foreign militaries allow homosexuals to serve, the latest being Uruguay. Suzanne Goldberg, director of the Columbia Law School’s Sexuality and Gender Law Clinic, said that Canada, Britain, Australia and Israel found that allowing open service has been, “as one person put it, a collective yawn.”

In the United States, the Central Intelligence Agency, the Federal Bureau of Investigation and the Secret Service allow open service. The key to implementation, experts said, is a uniform code of conduct that is enforced without regard to sexual orientation.

Polling finds that more than three-quarters of the public and most self-described conservatives favor open service. Opposition has dwindled to “a rear-guard action by some people who really care about this, and there aren’t that many of them,” said Morris Fiorina, a political scientist at Stanford University’s Hoover Institution.

Time to put your big boy pants on, fake conservatives. You can only live in your romanticized past for so long. And that time ended along time ago…

Logical Dude

July 22nd, 2010
5:53 pm

Hi Scout,
I appreciate your honesty. That was a good response.

Although I might disagree with the comparison of a gay relationship with cheating on his wife, we can agree to disagree on this one.

josef nix

July 22nd, 2010
5:53 pm

JAY
Oy! Mate…I never said they do…I’ve got my own problems with Likkud and I’m certainly NOT a self-hating Jew. I say IF you look at many of the comments when the subject comes up, the distinction between the policies of the current government and the J-E-Ws is NOT made and do, indeed, belie a latent, and oftentimes overt, anti-Semitism…

Scout

July 22nd, 2010
5:54 pm

“OFF TOPIC #1″

Jay:

Here’s a good one you might want to do a thread on …………. substituting one army for another.
Talk about smoke and mirrors just to get the “military” out ……………

Headline: “STATE DEPARTMENT PLANNING TO FIELD A SMALL ARMY IN IRAQ … ”

Read more: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/07/21/97915/state-dept-planning-to-field-a.html#ixzz0uS04CpFt

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/07/21/97915/state-dept-planning-to-field-a.html#ixzz0uRFpicpy

josef nix

July 22nd, 2010
5:55 pm

BOSCH
Good to see ya! Folks were wondering where you were and when I tried to conjure you up and you didn’t appear, I got worried…

Scout

July 22nd, 2010
5:56 pm

Bosch :

Guess what? You don’t speak for me.

Logical Dude:

Thank you sir.