GOP claims of concern about debt are farcical

Continuing to fund extended unemployment benefits will add an estimated $35 billion to the federal debt over the next 10 years, an expense that Republicans in Congress insist must be “offset” by spending cuts elsewhere.

Continuing the Bush-era tax cuts for taxpayers who make more than $250,000 a year will add an estimated $678 billion to the debt over the next 10 years — almost 20 times as much as the jobless benefits — yet Republicans insist that no offset be required.

“You do need to offset the cost of increased spending,” U.S. Sen. Jon Kyl of Arizona told Chris Wallace Sunday. “And that’s what Republicans object to. But you should never have to offset cost of a deliberate decision to reduce tax rates on Americans.”

That’s both very telling and very worrisome. It confirms that for many Republicans, it’s not really about the debt or the deficit and never has been. They didn’t take the deficit seriously when they held every branch of government, and despite their rhetoric, they still don’t. As Greece, Great Britain and other countries have demonstrated, any longterm effort to address a national financial challenge will require BOTH spending cuts and tax increases.

Politically, you can’t produce the votes for one approach without also embracing the other. Morally, the pain has to be spread across the economic spectrum rather than concentrated on those least able to bear it, as the GOP would prefer. And mathematically, you simply can’t attain the numbers necessary unless you attack the problem from both the spending AND revenue sides. It is impossible.

Remember, Ronald Reagan signed at least three major tax increases into law as president, and one of his first acts upon becoming governor of California was to sign a huge increase in state taxes. But with its pathological aversion to taxes, the party that claims Reagan as its intellectual hero has backed itself — and thus the country — into a terrible financial corner on this issue. It’s going to get even worse when the Republicans gain seats in both the House and the Senate this fall, making their cooperation even more essential, and even more impossible.

In fact, I’ll suggest that this is the issue that’s going to get Barack Obama re-elected president in 2012. He will be seen as willing and able to compromise on an issue that voters take seriously; the Republicans — caught in a trap of their own making — will not be able to respond.

Wait and see.

432 comments Add your comment

Scout

July 12th, 2010
8:25 am

Jay: Headline: “DEM GOVS WARN: OBAMA SUIT VS. AZ IS ‘TOXIC’ ”

This is the kind of stuff he needs to worry about. I’m just wondering when his stats get so bad which Democrat will have the guts to try to unseat him at the Democrat Convention ………. you know like Kennedy tried to do to Carter.

This will be great fun to watch ……………………

Southern Comfort

July 12th, 2010
8:27 am

“You do need to offset the cost of increased spending,” U.S. Sen. Jon Kyl of Arizona told Chris Wallace Sunday. And that’s what Republicans object to. But you should never have to offset cost of a deliberate decision to reduce tax rates on Americans.”

Isn’t cutting taxes with out a matching cut in spending, in effect, an increase in spending? I’ve never understood that logic. Also, I have another question or two for the tax cut, small government crowd. What is considered low taxes and/or small government, and can government still be effective after achieving those points?

Scout

July 12th, 2010
8:27 am

Would like to stay and play but have to run for the day. You’all be nice !

Southern Comfort

July 12th, 2010
8:28 am

USinUK

July 12th, 2010
8:28 am

but … but … but … JAYYYYYY .. don’t you know that all those tax cuts will trickle down onto the middle class, who will soon be living in the land of milk and honey when the rich folks get richer?

larry

July 12th, 2010
8:28 am

The problem is republicans only know one economic model, trickle down economics. Voodoo economics. And what makes it worse, every time Obama said he wants to work with republicans, they say no, no, no.

Outhouse GoKart

July 12th, 2010
8:32 am

“…and can government still be effective after achieving those points?”

Yes.

RW-(the original)

July 12th, 2010
8:33 am

Farcical is a good word and should be applied to the absurd notion that tax codes have no effect on economic activity which allows for the even more farcical notion that raising the tax rates does nothing but generate more tax dollars for the government to whiz away.

Later y’all

Outhouse GoKart

July 12th, 2010
8:34 am

Seems the Dems are attempting to limit SuperDelegate party influence for the upcoming Democratic National Debacle. Hmmm…there is duhty work afoot mate.

larry

July 12th, 2010
8:34 am

The Bush tax cuts got us in this mess.The Bush tax cuts expiring is going to help get us out. Why do you think Clinton vetoed them four times?

Southern Comfort

July 12th, 2010
8:35 am

OGK

At what point do you achieve the low tax and small government levels that Republicans strive for? Is there a set point or is it arbitrary?

Kamchak

July 12th, 2010
8:36 am

Transfer of wealth up——–good.
Transfer of wealth down—-bad.

Thirty years of this, and we are at the logical conclusion of trickle-on, laissez-faire supply side alchemy. Trying to make lead into gold by magic.

USinUK

July 12th, 2010
8:38 am

Kam – 8:36 – t’was ever thus.

redistribution of wealth is fine, as long as it goes the right direction.

USinUK

July 12th, 2010
8:39 am

SoCo – “At what point do you achieve the low tax and small government levels that Republicans strive for?”

“small enough to drown in a bathtub”, I believe, were the apocryphal words of Grover Norquist …

AmVet

July 12th, 2010
8:43 am

It confirms that for many Republicans, it’s not really about the debt or the deficit and never has been. They didn’t take the deficit seriously when they held every branch of government, and despite their rhetoric, they still don’t.

What is it gonna take, Republiconned? Another three decades of the vast majority of Americans getting nowhere but further behind before you finally realize that you amazingly slow learners have been had by these little men with calloused knees?

You need to find something bigger than your gun and god-driven hatred for liberals, academia and science to hang your hats on. This fake conservative ideology of yours is a joke and a failure.

And your kids are gonna hate you when they figure out what you stood for and WHO you stood against…

TaxPayer

July 12th, 2010
8:44 am

I’m OK with all the tax cuts that the Republicans want as long as they cannot borrow any money to fund them. Let them make the cuts in services needed to fund the tax cuts. Force them to start acting like grownups.

By the way, I see that the bank that the Brouns were heavily invested in has failed. Probably too many loans made on million dollar plus homes to rich folk. Paul Broun is whining about how the federal government’s rules are just too harsh. I suspect that his degree of whining can be directly correlated with the amount of money he and his family members lost in that deal.

Mick

July 12th, 2010
8:46 am

Republicans are blithely transparent – its cut taxes, the answer to ever economic problem while the rich get richer, the middle class disintegrates and poor, well there will always be poor among us but with repubs in charge one can guarantee that the poor will become a growth industry.

Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)

July 12th, 2010
8:49 am

Well, Bookman probly don’t pay no taxes. He don’t know what it means to worry day and night about big-time debt. For example, poor Sister Dusty drags out that $14 trillion figure like a woman that’s been wronged by her husband and only brings it up every day of his miserable life to remind him of it. It haunts her like a ghost. Some of the rest of us got the same problem. The debt, I mean. Not being wronged.

Anyhow, I’ll try and explain this thing the best way I know how. See, big tax cuts don’t cost nothing because they bring in more money than they spend. But keeping on keeping on giving unemployment benefits to a bunch of bums and people that don’t vote Republican anyway will just bankrupt this country. If this kind of stuff keeps going pretty soon Sister Dusty and other people like her will be moaning and groaning about $15 trillion in debt. It’s time to nip this thing in the bud. That is, unless Republicans take the White House back.

So I hope I’ve explained this stuff once and for all. The bottom line is, give the people with lots of money a big Tax Cut and they might could trickle down on the rest of us. But don’t give one penny to people that had the disgrace of getting fired and laid off.

Have a good day everybody.

Kamchak

July 12th, 2010
8:49 am

USinUK

I saw this in The Nation last week from Robert Reich:

Consider: in 1928 the richest 1 percent of Americans received 23.9 percent of the nation’s total income. After that, the share going to the richest 1 percent steadily declined. New Deal reforms, followed by World War II, the GI Bill and the Great Society expanded the circle of prosperity. By the late 1970s the top 1 percent raked in only 8 to 9 percent of America’s total annual income. But after that, inequality began to widen again, and income reconcentrated at the top. By 2007 the richest 1 percent were back to where they were in 1928—with 23.5 percent of the total.

Each of America’s two biggest economic crashes occurred in the year immediately following these twin peaks—in 1929 and 2008. This is no mere coincidence. When most of the gains from economic growth go to a small sliver of Americans at the top, the rest don’t have enough purchasing power to buy what the economy is capable of producing. America’s median wage, adjusted for inflation, has barely budged for decades. Between 2000 and 2007 it actually dropped. Under these circumstances the only way the middle class can boost its purchasing power is to borrow, as it did with gusto. As housing prices rose, Americans turned their homes into ATMs. But such borrowing has its limits. When the debt bubble finally burst, vast numbers of people couldn’t pay their bills, and banks couldn’t collect.

Running a consumer based economy on debt.

It had to seize up when the credit well ran dry.

Southern Comfort

July 12th, 2010
8:49 am

UnU

That question has been on my mind for some time. I can understand the desire for low taxes and little government spending. I’m also a realist. I would not expect any service provider or business to survive if they cut the amount they charged their customers and cut the amount they spent on providing their service at the same time. That does not appear to be a sound business practice in my eyes. To me, however, that’s exactly what the small government/low tax idea appears to entail. I’m just trying to grasp the logic and understand if the practical application of those ideas will work in the real world.

USinUK

July 12th, 2010
8:50 am

TaxPayer – “I’m OK with all the tax cuts that the Republicans want as long as they cannot borrow any money to fund them. Let them make the cuts in services needed to fund the tax cuts. Force them to start acting like grownups.”

only problem with that: you know who will bear the brunt of any cuts, don’t you? it sure as heck isn’t going to be the major corporate donors that receive government subsidies …

USinUK

July 12th, 2010
8:53 am

Kam – “By 2007 the richest 1 percent were back to where they were in 1928—with 23.5 percent of the total.” and “It had to seize up when the credit well ran dry.”

2 excellent observations … history tells the story again and again about what happens when you have a weakening middle class and a minority of the population holding the majority of wealth … it’s never particularly pretty.

Normal

July 12th, 2010
8:53 am

Kyl is sure good at answering questions, ain’t he?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7mNDHTfdn1A

USinUK

July 12th, 2010
8:55 am

SoCo – “I can understand the desire for low taxes and little government spending. I’m also a realist.”

oh, I understand it, as well … I also understand that the people who yell about it the loudest are always the ones who want THE OTHER GUY’S benefits to be cut … seniors don’t want to pay for education, younger people don’t want to pay for social security, rich people don’t want to pay for the poor, the poor don’t want to pay for corporate subsidies …

MiltonMan

July 12th, 2010
8:56 am

DemoRats = more, more government like increasing the number of public service jobs while the private sector sheds them. Also, let’s make sure that the fat cats in government get really, really nice pension plans.

Funny to see them here complaining about the rich yet saying nothing of those on the public dole whose pensions plans are causing states to bleed.

MiltonMan

July 12th, 2010
8:58 am

USinUK: “…the poor don’t want to pay for corporate subsidies”. Come again. The poor do not pay taxes so what exactly are they paying for? The poor in this country have it made compared to the poor in Haiti, Africa, Central America, etc.

Mick

July 12th, 2010
8:59 am

**, really nice pension plans.**

Just because one retires you still need money to live, money that goes back into the economy which correct me if I’m wrong, mostly helps the private sector. What do want a nation of baby boomer paupers?

TaxPayer

July 12th, 2010
9:00 am

Republicans simply do not want government interfering in private business. They think that BP, Monsanto, Massey, Koch, Exxon, etc., should all have the freedom to do what only they can do best without any intervention or taxation. I guess none of them have thought ahead to the point where they have killed off their customer base.

Buda Douce

July 12th, 2010
9:00 am

I’ll tell you who is fartcicle. That’s the democrates and Obamarma. That’s whose fartcicle.

Kamchak

July 12th, 2010
9:01 am

…those on the public dole whose pensions plans are causing states to bleed.

Mmmmmm…can’t wait to get on the public dole, ’cause they have the bestest golden parachutes.

Oy.

Outhouse GoKart

July 12th, 2010
9:02 am

“Is there a set point or is it arbitrary?”

That is a very good question.

TaxPayer

July 12th, 2010
9:02 am

only problem with that: you know who will bear the brunt of any cuts, don’t you? it sure as heck isn’t going to be the major corporate donors that receive government subsidies …

If the majority of the voters are truly willing to give up everything that government provides in exchange for no taxation or regulation, who am I to argue. I’ll survive.

thomas

July 12th, 2010
9:02 am

USinUK

July 12th, 2010
8:53 am

Could the argument not also be made that History has taught us time and again that a society cannot surivive if wealth and prosperity is taken from those who produce the most and given to those who produce the least?

Has there ever been a country to obtain sucess as a nation by taking from those who produce and giving it to those who produce the least?

Possibly the best situation could be the ground in between.

Disgusted

July 12th, 2010
9:03 am

Funny to see them here complaining about the rich yet saying nothing of those on the public dole whose pensions plans are causing states to bleed.

Yep, MiltonMan. Ain’t it funny how nobody said anything about the cost of pension plans back when government entities were telling employment candidates not to worry about the low salaries being paid in government jobs, because the better pension plan would make up for it? And now that it’s time to pay out those pensions, ol’ MiltonMan and Johns Creek Joe and every other up-tight Republican are suddenly complaining to high heaven about the excessive cost of those pensions. Come to think of it, it reminds me of how Social Security funds were diverted to keep taxes low for ol’ MiltonMan and Johns Creek Joe and every other up-tight Republican. Now that the time is approaching to pay back those funds, suddenly we can’t afford Social Security any more.

But I shouldn’t bother explaining it. You wouldn’t understand anyway.

Granny Godzilla

July 12th, 2010
9:04 am

Kyl has a history of making false claims….

claimed that he did not say Republicans would filibuster immigration reform

claimed that “most of the jobs created are government jobs” in March jobs report

claimed that the Recovery Act had “very little effect”

claimed individuals will see premiums “continue to go up” because of health care reform.

claimed that health care bill “will add to the deficit”

falsely suggested that health care savings would not extend past first 10 years.

distorted Obama’s words to falsely suggest that Obama had said, “If you disagree with us, we’re going to call you out.

falsely described Democrats’ possible use of reconciliation to pass health care reform with a simple majority as the “nuclear option”

Kyl: “It is palpably false to suggest that the existence of Gitmo created terrorism.”

From Media Matters

Jon Kyl is one who most certainly should not be given back the keys.

Outhouse GoKart

July 12th, 2010
9:04 am

“Is there a set point or is it arbitrary?”

I think it takes a group of responsible, logical individuals on Capitol Hill that have a basic familiarity with arithmetic. Unfortuately we, at the time, have none of those.

N-GA

July 12th, 2010
9:05 am

“…those on the public dole whose pensions plans are causing states to bleed.”

What the he!! does that mean? If they’re on the public dole, how do they have a pension plan? What is MiltonMan thinking? Oh…..he’s NOT thinking. This must be one of those T-Party statements.

USinUK

July 12th, 2010
9:06 am

“The poor in this country have it made compared to the poor in Haiti, Africa, Central America, etc.”

and the rich in our country make the rich in those countries look like paupers. what’s your point?

thomas – “a society cannot surivive if wealth and prosperity is taken from those who produce the most and given to those who produce the least?”

there’s a world of difference between advocating for socialism and noting that the American middle class is being destroyed to benefit the top 1%.

Bill Orvis White

July 12th, 2010
9:06 am

Wrong again, Jay. You see, when you cut taxe$, you are giving all businesses the tools that they need to hire workers. With more workers in play, you put more privatized money in folks’ pockets. This way, they go out and spend money to circulate in the economy. The Honorable President Reagan got it right most of the time, but just like Presidents HW and GW Bush, they made some minor errors in the form of tax hikes due to the far left liberal Congresses that they had to deal with. I was sickened when HW was pressured by that whacko liberal Congress to go against his No New Taxe$ pledge.
The bottom line here is that even in Georgia, the gov’t needs to simply slash spending by 50 percent. If all states did that, they would easily solves their fiscal messes.
But don’t just believe me here, believe me when you see the morning after results on November 3. That is “President” Hussein Obama’s Day of Reckoning whereby he will see his Congress pack their bags. Next, his poll numbers will be at about 15 percent. Re-elected in 2012? There you go again, Liberal Jay. You’re quite entertaining!
Amen,
Bill

USinUK

July 12th, 2010
9:08 am

Taxpayer – 9:02 – but that’s my point – no one wants to give up THEIR benefits – they want everyone else to …

Outhouse GoKart

July 12th, 2010
9:08 am

Correct me if Im wrong but I believe the median income for a public vs private sector job of the same caliber, is higher. Besides even if it isnt the public sector kiddies drive home govt vehicles, get numerous daily breaks, 2 hour lunches, arrive late, leave early and produce mostly red tape.

Normal

July 12th, 2010
9:09 am

When you started with “Demorats”, I quit reading…sorry.
————————————-

Maybe if President Obama hadn’t put the cost of two wars on the budget, we wouldn’t have had this problem…Think it’s too late to get an eraser?

Normal

July 12th, 2010
9:10 am

Outhouse GoKart

July 12th, 2010
9:08 am

Facts, please.

Jase

July 12th, 2010
9:10 am

“Continuing the Bush-era tax cuts for taxpayers who make more than $250,000 a year will add an estimated $678 billion to the debt over the next 10 years —”

Hmmm, What will a continuance of the Bush-era tax cuts for taxpayers who make less than 250K/year add to the debt over the next ten years?

USinUK

July 12th, 2010
9:12 am

Normal – 9:09 – I should have known better when he said that the poor don’t pay taxes, but I couldn’t help myself …

AmVet

July 12th, 2010
9:13 am

“The poor in this country have it made compared to the poor in Haiti, Africa, Central America, etc.”

I always find this type of mentality, a) sadly reflective of the conned mindset and b) amazingly off target and repulsive.

Alas, if it wasn’t soaked in BP oil, you could have a nice tasty red herring sandwich for breakfast…

Where's My Party?

July 12th, 2010
9:13 am

But…but….but….the rich aren’t taxed enough! Tax them until they are no longer rich. MAKE THE RICH POOR!!!!

Pathetic.

Gus

July 12th, 2010
9:13 am

Use the expiring tax cuts for unemployment and apply the rest to the deficit.

Kamchak

July 12th, 2010
9:14 am

You see, when you cut taxe$, you are giving all businesses the tools that they need to hire workers. With more workers in play, you put more privatized money in folks’ pockets. This way, they go out and spend money to circulate in the economy.

St. Ronnie of the Ray-gun did just that in the 80’s.

Did Corporate America use those tax cuts to retool factories and retrain workers?

No.

They used the new found windfall to float junk-bonds that financed leveraged buyouts of vulnerable companies, laid off workers, sold off the business assets, paid off the bond holders and pocketed millions.

thomas

July 12th, 2010
9:15 am

USinUK

July 12th, 2010
9:06 am

but to offset the destruction of the middle class would we not have to take from those who produce the most and then give it to those who produce the least?

If there was a set standard for the “middle class” I do not think many would have a problem with the middle class recieving a break and tax cuts..

Also I would argue that it is not the middle class that is producing the least, as I stated.

What is your definition of “middle class”?

Many on the right are of the belief and understanding that the re-distribution of wealth is not aimed at those in the middle class but those from the lowest socioeconomic classes.

That is the thing in my opinion that bothers people is that those producing the least will be supplied by those producing the most.

What is the motivation to be a top producer? Seems to me it breeds mediocrity and encourages those in the mddle and lower classes to stay where they are, instead of inspiring them to excell.

Doggone/GA

July 12th, 2010
9:16 am

“you are giving all businesses the tools that they need to hire workers”

actually…no, you aren’t. That’s the claim that is always made, but it’s not true. What gives companies the tools they need to hire workers is MORE CUSTOMERS, buying more of their goods/services. No company is going to hire more workers than they need to deal with their customer base…no matter how many tax cuts you give them. All the tax cuts give them, in the absence of an increasing customer base, is to raise their profit margin.

AmVet

July 12th, 2010
9:17 am

“Possibly the best situation could be the ground in between.”

You mean something different that workers salaries increasing by 4% in the 1990s and CEO salaries going up 250% during the same time period?

Heresy! We simply cannot allow the little people to overturn this reverse Robin Hood plutocracy we have in the USA!

The answer is there is too much power and too much wealth in too few hands and the few control our government and the few create the problems and the injustices for the many and have less and less interest in doing anything about it because they can get away with it. ~Ralph Nader 1996

Jimmy62

July 12th, 2010
9:19 am

But will Obama raise taxes to close the debt, or will he raise taxes to bail out auto companies, save union pension plans, protect Black Panthers from going to jail for voter intimidation, and allow people to live off of unemployment indefinitely?

Doggone/GA

July 12th, 2010
9:19 am

“That is the thing in my opinion that bothers people is that those producing the least will be supplied by those producing the most”

Remember, money is like water…it never really goes away, it just recirculates around and around. If money is “taken” from the rich, to “give” to the poor…the poor will spend it immediately, and it then recirculates throught the economny and ends up back in the hands of those at the top.

Think of it this way: who does more good for the economy? A rich person who spends a million dollars, or a million poorer people spending 100 dollars?

Jimmy62

July 12th, 2010
9:21 am

Also, if you look at the difference in salary/benefits between private and public sector…. just cutting public sector to be equivalent to the private would go a long way. But government will never cut itself, that’s not how it works. New government programs and jobs rarely go away, which is why growing government is in fact the Road to Serfdom.

DEEP THROAT

July 12th, 2010
9:21 am

Jay, HE will be seen as willing and able to compromise ?
I know you just went on vacation and maybe was out of touch a little bit, but to say he is willing to compromise is absurd.
His record shows anything but, he has been the most arrogant president in history.

Kamchak

July 12th, 2010
9:22 am

Black Panthers—SQUIRREL!

Doggone/GA

July 12th, 2010
9:23 am

“or will he raise taxes to bail out auto companies, save union pension plans, protect Black Panthers from going to jail for voter intimidation, and allow people to live off of unemployment indefinitely?”

“bail out auto companies” = saving thousands of auto industry jobs
“save union pension plans” = save the incomes of thousands of retired auto workers
“protect Black Panthers from going to jail for voter intimidation” = no voters ever complained of being intimidated
“allow people to live off of unemployment indefinitely” = keep people from having to beg in the streets because companies are laying off workers

thomas

July 12th, 2010
9:25 am

AmVet

July 12th, 2010
9:13 am

and USinUK,

Are both of you saying that the poor of our country do not enjoy a better quality of life than those in the countries mentioned?

I have had a couple of players from the continent of Africa and a few from the Isles over the last few years.

One thing that was the exact same in each of these young men was there lack of understanding for the level of entitlement of their teammates.

Having listened to these young men speak about how things were for them at home….. I can assure you that many if not all of their families and friends would gladly change places with any of our poor.

Mainly because of what one of teh young men, Aristead, told me……….. “Everyone I know would choose America, because if you want to you can succeed, noone will stop you, only your own excuses. It is not that way back home”

Granted I do not think the situation today is ideal but by far I think we treat our poor and underprivledged better than any others in the world. No other nation’s people give as much to charity as we do. There are many things that need to be worked on and tweeked, but the system as a whole is not broken here.

Nothing is Free

July 12th, 2010
9:26 am

No Worry.

Just get rid of the tax cuts for all Americans and stick us with the bills. It’s OK It’s for the good of all Obama supporters.

WELFARE FOR ALL!!!

It’s simple. Some of us are just lazy and incompetent and need the government. Some of us don’t.

larry

July 12th, 2010
9:27 am

All the tax cuts give them, in the absence of an increasing customer base, is to raise their profit margin.

AGREED!! Demand creates jobs , not tax cuts.

Nothing is Free

July 12th, 2010
9:28 am

KAMCHAK:

IDIOT that can’t stage an argument so all he can do is what any 12 year old would do.

Typical liberal. No brains and thinks he is funny.

Outhouse GoKart

July 12th, 2010
9:29 am

“you could have a nice tasty red herring sandwich for breakfast…”

lol.

thomas

July 12th, 2010
9:29 am

AmVet

July 12th, 2010
9:17 am

So you feel the answer then is to punish evil rich people and tax them more?

Is your “fair” solution then for the rich to watch their taxes increase by a certain percentage while everyone else watches their taxes decrease?

Yes that seems like a perfect model for prosperity. It will surely inspire people to excell and not in any way incourcage mediocrity.

USinUK

July 12th, 2010
9:29 am

Thomas – “Also I would argue that it is not the middle class that is producing the least, as I stated.”

which is why the “taking from those who produce the most and giving it to those who produce the least” argument doesn’t wash with me. closing loopholes and letting the Bush tax cuts for those earning >$250K expire in orter to help stop the middle class’s economic slide is actually the farthest thing from “those who produce the least” I can think of.

“What is your definition of “middle class”?”

that’s a good question – and one which the geographic disparities in Cost of Living make it difficult to affix a dollar amount to. (in other words – the fat-part-of-the-bell-curve income in DC would give you a palatial lifestyle in Dubuque, so it’s hard to say between $50K – $150K/year, for example). I think it’s more qualitative – does your income allow you to afford an abode in the median price range, feed your family with an average basket of goods, pay your taxes, put aside what should be some decent savings and use some form of transportation (be it public or private) and have some kind of health care? Those are the things I would look at, were anyone to ask.

“Many on the right are of the belief and understanding that the re-distribution of wealth is not aimed at those in the middle class but those from the lowest socioeconomic classes.”

and many on the right would be incorrect because of that. most of us see the back of the middle class being broken by more and more giveaways to those at the top, both corporate and individual.

Curious Observer

July 12th, 2010
9:31 am

Granted I do not think the situation today is ideal but by far I think we treat our poor and underprivledged better than any others in the world.

Are there no prisons? Are there no workhouses?

Nothing is Free

July 12th, 2010
9:31 am

Doggone

*All the tax cuts give them, in the absence of an increasing customer base, is to raise their profit margin.*

So there’s no way any business can be proactive? We all just need to set ands wait until the government sends us some customers?

Isn’t there a protest you need to attend? I needed to present my driver’s license in a road block this weekend. I think it is because I am white. WE NEED THE FED TO FIX THAT!!!

Southern Comfort

July 12th, 2010
9:33 am

just cutting public sector to be equivalent to the private would go a long way.

To quote R. Lee Ermey… “JESUS H. CHRIST!!”

Let’s see.. President of the U.S. $400,000 per year; Governors of the states $1-$206,500
http://www.stateline.org/live/details/story?contentId=207914

Compare the U.S. CEO vs. State CEO’s vs. Private CEO’s and work your way thru the ranks. Then ask yourself who makes more, private or public sector. The truth lies in who makes the most money per comparative position and not the average mumbo jumbo people try to peddle.

USinUK

July 12th, 2010
9:33 am

thomas – “Are both of you saying that the poor of our country do not enjoy a better quality of life than those in the countries mentioned?”

while I can’t speak for AmVet, I’ll say that I think it’s an idiotic paradigm – of course the poor have a better quality of life (due, in no small part, to the actions of government) –

but, so what? our poor don’t live in slums like they do in Mumbai, so that means they’re not poor?

TGT

July 12th, 2010
9:33 am

GOP claims of concern about debt are farcical

What about Dumbocrat claims?

“Mr. Bowles, a Democrat and the White House chief of staff under President Bill Clinton, offered a gloomy assessment if spending is not brought under control even more.

‘This debt is like a cancer,’ Mr. Bowles said. ‘it is truly going to destroy the country from within.’

Outhouse GoKart

July 12th, 2010
9:33 am

“actually…no, you aren’t.”

Actually you dont know what you are talking about. Why do you think business arent hiring? Big business is holding the Federal govt hostage and its great. Its the economy. HA HA…and silly Obumbler and the Dems just want to tax more and more hence Big Business say ok we will just lay off more workers to pay your silly tax.

Oh well.

Gator Joe

July 12th, 2010
9:34 am

Jay,
I wonder if in the archives there are any accounts of Senator Kyl expressing concern over deficit spending on no-bid contracts in Iraq for Blackwater or Halliburton, or during Bush/Cheney? Typical of the Right, deficits don’t matter as long as they are the beneficiaries. By the way, if I were making 250K annuallly I wouldn’t be complaining about taxes. Conservatives, Republicans, the Right want strong defence, good police and fire protection, infrastructure maintenance, as long as ….someone other than them pays for it.

godless heathen

July 12th, 2010
9:34 am

When government demonstrates a need for additional revenue, I will be for it. As of yet, the government has not demonstrated such need. As long as government spending is fraught with mind numbing waste, I am convinced that it seizes too much money from the taxpayers.

Kamchak

July 12th, 2010
9:34 am

Typical liberal. No brains and thinks he is funny.

I hear you knockin’ swampy nowhere man, but you can’t come in.

Mick

July 12th, 2010
9:34 am

Remember warren buffet and the example that percentage wise his secretary pays more in taxes than he does. Who needs the money more? Why do so may jackazzes want to defend the wealthy from paying their fair share?

Outhouse GoKart

July 12th, 2010
9:35 am

due, in no small part, to the actions of government) – and private volunteer organizations…United Way etc.

Individuals and corp America donate millions for the poor.

Southern Comfort

July 12th, 2010
9:36 am

OGK

Thanks for tackling my earlier questions. I’m trying my best to see the small government/low tax position as factually as possible.

thomas

July 12th, 2010
9:36 am

Doggone/GA

July 12th, 2010
9:19 am

you are comparring apples and oranges with the million people spending 100 bucks.

See it would need to be 100 millionaires.

Your whole argument was based on the fact that money is like water in that it is fluid and never goes away.

Well if that is true your math is a bit off….. 1 guy spending a million is only $1,000,000.00, but then you create more money to prove your point by saying 1 million people spending $100.00.

If one group is allowed to spend $100,000,000.00 and teh other group or person is only allowed to spend $1,000,000.00 I should hope the group with $100,000,000.00 spends more.

What should have been asked was whodoes more good a person with $1,000,000 of spendable money or a group of 1000 people with only $100 of spendable money?

At least be fair and don’t try to trick people by shifting numbers the way you did.

Doggone/GA

July 12th, 2010
9:36 am

“So there’s no way any business can be proactive? We all just need to set ands wait until the government sends us some customers?”

How is getting a tax cut proactive? No, and you already know this, they do not need to “wait” for the government to send customers. But what they COULD do is to let their profits slide enough, for a while, to keep people employed.

If enough companies did this, they would see their customer base expand as more people have more money to spend. And that would lead to a need to hire more workers.

We’re on a downward spiral because companies let employees go because other companies let employees go, which means fewer people spending less money. The only way to reverse that is to literally reverse it…keep people employed so they keep spending their money, and it circulates around through the economy.

Yes, this does mean some bullet biting, but if in the end the economy goes back into positive growth…that lost profit will return, and increase.

USinUK

July 12th, 2010
9:37 am

“I needed to present my driver’s license in a road block this weekend. I think it is because I am white”

“Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help! I’m being repressed”

:roll:

Outhouse GoKart

July 12th, 2010
9:37 am

godless heathen

July 12th, 2010
9:34 am

HERE HERE!!! Hhhuhrumpf!!! When and if the govt gets their waste under control and can be accountable and trusted then many republicans wouldnt mind lending a hand. Until then KMA!!

USinUK

July 12th, 2010
9:38 am

OGK – “and private volunteer organizations…United Way etc.”

really? the United Way is responsible for the TVA? Goodwill provides breakfasts for poor kids at school?

Nothing is Free

July 12th, 2010
9:39 am

thomas

Rich: Evil

Poor: Good

Ambition: Evil

Lazy: Good

Self determined: Evil

Being a pencil pusher working for the government: Good

American citizens: Evil

Illegal immigrant: Good

Tax breaks: Evil

Government spending on pork and raising taxes to pay for it: Good

BP Giving money to Republicans Evil

BP financing a good part of Obama’s campaign: Good.

Unemployment at 4.7 under Bush: Evil

Unemployment 9.7 Under Obama Good

I hope this helps.

Normal

July 12th, 2010
9:40 am

KMA? Mark a spot, you are all a$$…Just supposin’…

Doggone/GA

July 12th, 2010
9:41 am

“At least be fair and don’t try to trick people by shifting numbers the way you did”

It was fair, you just don’t want it to be. There’s no way to directly compare the millionaire “class” with the “lower” classes. A millionaire is going to spend whatever they want to spend, because they can. The poorer people are going to spend their money because they HAVE to.

So, yes, it’s a fair comparison.

Nothing is Free

July 12th, 2010
9:41 am

USinUK

**“Oh! Come and see the violence inherent in the system! Help, help! I’m being repressed”**

You sound like a liberal.

AmVet

July 12th, 2010
9:42 am

“Are both of you saying that the poor of our country do not enjoy a better quality of life than those in the countries mentioned?”

thomas, not unless you have concocted a new Rosetta Stone.

The only point I made is that the comparison is inanely useless and one helluva red herring that doesn’t even have a place in this discussion.

So you feel the answer then is to punish evil rich people and tax them more?

thomas, see the comment above about the new Rosetta Stone.

Your “tactic” of intentionally misrepresenting people is annoying but commonplace here.

It would seem that this habit precludes any real intellectual or useful discourse between us.

Outhouse GoKart

July 12th, 2010
9:42 am

Its factually possible by shere waste elimination and govt program and department duplication. The private sector lays off ee’s, cuts budgets, trims the fat constantly. Not the govt though. When workers smell the winds of termination blowing they generally shift into a higher gear and become more productive…of course not the stupid one, but thats another story.

Once the workers get up to full steam then mgmt says…hmmm we need to get rid of some more or shift these ee’s to this dept. Just elimination of waste would lead to a more productive govt and smaller govt.

Jimmy62

July 12th, 2010
9:42 am

Good ol’ Cynthia won’t approve my comment on her blog, because it proves she and Dana Milbank are completely wrong:
http://www.washingtonexaminer.com/opinion/blogs/beltway-confidential/MEMO-TO-MILBANK-Youre-a-head-behind-the-facts-on-Arizona-violence-98148009.html

There you go. Proof of a beheading on the border. Completely turns around her entire column, making it her the one who is confronted with facts but continues to believe lies.

Del

July 12th, 2010
9:42 am

Well the Republicans were concerned enough during Clinton’s second term. Doesn’t appear the Dem’s want to do anything other than raise tax’s so the can continue their reckless spending.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_governors_debt_commission

Tax Cuts

July 12th, 2010
9:44 am

Tax cuts spur economic growth. The taxable base then gets larger and tax revenue increases.

Cut taxes now or the terrorists win, (and illegal immigrants win, and the Gulf spill wins.)

Normal

July 12th, 2010
9:44 am

NIF,
Great talking points but not whole truth in the lot of them..Take off the blinders son, grab a bucket and start bailing before we all sink.

USinUK

July 12th, 2010
9:45 am

NIF – “You sound like a liberal.”

you’re a liberal!!!??? wow!!! whodathunk …

Doggone/GA

July 12th, 2010
9:45 am

“Good ol’ Cynthia”

In case you missed it, this is NOT Cynthia’s blog.

Outhouse GoKart

July 12th, 2010
9:45 am

“Goodwill provides breakfasts for poor kids at school?”

You understood. Besides providing breakfast for some kid is not my or should not be my responsibility nor that of my tax money. I had a glass of milk for breakfast when young…there was not 3 egg and waffle breakfasts. All this pampering of “the children”. Let the parents feed the kids and from the looks of all the child obesity studies it wouldnt hurt for quite a few of them to miss a meal.

Again there is a difference between poor people and lazy people.

N-GA

July 12th, 2010
9:45 am

cure cancer – cut taxes
solve world hunger – cut taxes
bring about world peace – cut taxes
fix GOP erectile dysfunction – cut taxes

Nothing is Free

July 12th, 2010
9:46 am

Doggone

^But what they COULD do is to let their profits slide enough, for a while, to keep people employed.^

That “while” was up a year after the democrats took over Congress and began the destruction of our economy. A while is not three years.

We are on a downward spiral because our Federal government is either completely incompetent or is intentionally hurting our economy to promote a socialist and Marxist agenda. Your choice. Are they just stupid or or they doing this on purpose? I personally don’t think they are stupid.

USinUK

July 12th, 2010
9:46 am

Normal – 9:44 – leopards. spots. s’all I’m saying.

deegee

July 12th, 2010
9:47 am

What business owner makes their business plan based on a tax cut? If that’s their plan they aren’t going to be in business for long. Business owners make projections based on anticipated sales. It is assumed that expenses are going to increase as sales increase.

The credit contraction put the damper on sales. Consumers are paying off their existing debt rather than incurring new debt. The credit crunch has also put a damper on the ability of businesses to borrow capital necessary to grow laterally. You can thank the bubble blowing Alan Greenspan for a large part of the mess we are in.

Nothing is Free

July 12th, 2010
9:47 am

Normal

I am donating money and working for republicans like crazy. We aren’t going to sink if we can just keep the Democrats from drilling more holes in the bottom of the boat.