A lot of damage in Gulf can’t be counted, compensated
Allen Kruse ran a charter-boat operation out of Gulf Shores, Ala., taking tourists and fisherman out to fishing grounds now closed because of the oil spill. Even after the leak is sealed and the oil disappears, the chance that the fish will reappear in numbers large enough to sustain that kind of livelihood looks pretty dim.
The Washington Post tells the rest of the story:
Two weeks and two days ago, with his fishing grounds closed, Kruse, 55, took a job working for BP’s cleanup crew. For the very people who’d caused the mess.
Other boat captains said Kruse, like them, found the effort confusing, overly bureaucratic and frustrating. He told them to keep their heads down, not to worry about the hassles. But those close to him saw he was losing weight.
On Wednesday morning, Kruse drove to his boat as usual. As the deckhands prepared for the day’s work, Kruse, as the captain, was supposed to turn on the generator. But after a few minutes, the crew members said, they didn’t hear anything and went looking for him. A deckhand found him in the wheelhouse, shot in the head.
… Thad Stewart, a friend who works at the Orange Beach, Ala., marina where Kruse docked his boat, said he noticed a difference about the time Kruse went to work for BP. “He stopped talking. That’s all there is to it. He stopped talking,” Stewart said. “I’m not saying that this was the cause of it . . . but he was seeing what was his home, which was the Gulf of Mexico, just be slowly destroyed.”
Frank Kruse, his identical twin brother who is a probate lawyer in Mobile, Ala., said his brother was waiting for about $70,000 in payments from BP for working two of his boats for the past two weeks. “There’s no question in my mind that this is directly related to the oil spill,” Frank Kruse said in a phone interview Wednesday night. “He had been losing weight. Every day he was worried.”
He said his brother “was very, very upset at the way BP was handling the oil spill. There was a lot of wasted money, a lot of wasted time. They’d give him a different story of what needed to be done.”
I guess Allen Kruse didn’t think he’d ever get his life back.
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271 comments Add your comment
Matilda
June 24th, 2010
11:25 am
Christ.
stands for decibels
June 24th, 2010
11:27 am
But after a few minutes, the crew members said, they didn’t hear anything and went looking for him. A deckhand found him in the wheelhouse
…f–king hell.
Peadawg
June 24th, 2010
11:27 am
Dang.
stands for decibels
June 24th, 2010
11:34 am
From the linked piece.
“We’re helping cover up the lie. We’re burying ourselves. We’re helping them cover up the [expletive] that’s putting us out of work,” said a 27-year-old deckhand who was working for Kruse on Wednesday and spoke on condition of anonymity.
Jay, last I heard (reported on Democracy Now few weeks back), BP was requiring anyone working for them to agree not to talk to the press as a condition for employment.
I really wish the AJC would follow up on that. I’m sure such gag orders are SOP for a lot of contracts, but given the magnitude of this disaster, I think it’s unconscionable.
Off to finish reading the WaPo…
godless heathen
June 24th, 2010
11:36 am
BP shot him?
NowReally
June 24th, 2010
11:38 am
Truly sad. There is an online interview today where an employee talks about the BP location in Alaska. For all those who would like to keep drilling on land and off shore, it’s really very interesting to hear what an employee has to say about safety expectations. I think I saw it on MSNBC or CNN’s website.
josef nix
June 24th, 2010
11:41 am
Sad. This is but the tip of the iceberg.
Paul
June 24th, 2010
11:42 am
Tragic, to have such despair and hopelessness.
Gets back to my question from the other day. So BP is held accountable for lost incomes. But what of those whose jobs never come back? Or that somewhat recover, but at lower levels? Should not BP and its shareholders be responsible for more than a one or two-year window of payments? I think so.
USinUK
June 24th, 2010
11:42 am
His poor family (and friends) …
but, hey, at least the moratorium has been lifted!
drill, baby drill.
oy.
josef nix
June 24th, 2010
11:43 am
“BP shot him?”
It had already killed him dead as doornail.
Scooter
June 24th, 2010
11:44 am
What has happened to this man’s life is bad. But I can’t feel sorry for someone that takes his own life. I lost my lifetime career and as a result I lost my wife also.I was devistated but I picked up the pieces and carried on. Life is like a box of chocolates……….RIP Mr. Kruse
jconservative
June 24th, 2010
11:45 am
Tough situation.
People are out of work because of the oil spill. People are out of work because of the deep drilling moratorium.
Think of it as the food chain and suddenly the first food in the chain is gone and everything above that level starves.
@@
June 24th, 2010
11:52 am
Glad to know that the churches are there for the community. A strong faith has gotten those folks thru a lot of hard times.
It’s sad to read that Mr. Kruse lost his ability to cope. Coping skills, the secret to a long and prosperous life.
Tom Ard, another fishing boat captain, knew Kruse for 25 years.
“I could tell he was having a hard time coping,” said Ard, president of the Orange Beach Fishing Association. Kruse was on its board of directors.
Ard said BP has done everything it said it would do and that despite setbacks and delays, “they have been working hard to make things right.”
Two different perspectives. Which one best serves?
Doggone/GA
June 24th, 2010
11:52 am
“Think of it as the food chain and suddenly the first food in the chain is gone and everything above that level starves”
That’s only a partial analogy though. The only ones “above” that would starve are the ones that are totally dependent on that one food source. The more diverse an organisms food sources, the less likely they will be permanently impacted by the loss of one.
If krill were to disappear from all the oceans, the filter feeding whales would starve…but the sharks and killer whales that feed on those whales would not, because THEY have alternative food sources.
SPQR(laissez Faire)
June 24th, 2010
11:52 am
Do I have to list all the people who have committed suicide over being HOUNDED UNMERCIFULLY by the IRS, often for no reason at all..
Southern Comfort
June 24th, 2010
11:53 am
Sad…
The pain from this incident will linger for decades to come.
josef nix
June 24th, 2010
11:53 am
Scooter
Picking up and starting over is made a bit easier when you’re looking only at your own personal disaster…when it’s your entire society, the loss of all you have ever cherished as your culture, it takes on a different perspective.
I’m not inclined to suicide myself but I cannot fathom what the people on the ground are going through psychologically…
godless heathen
June 24th, 2010
11:53 am
The article didn’t say who shot him. If he shot himself, who’s fault is that? Maybe he should have sought counseling.
Scout
June 24th, 2010
11:54 am
godless heathen:
No. Bush killed him. Film at 11.
Scooter
June 24th, 2010
11:54 am
People are out of work because of the oil spill
A lot of people now have jobs because of the spill. There is always a bright side if you look hard enough. Jus’ sayin…..
theyeshaveit
June 24th, 2010
11:55 am
New Reality, I saw that CNN interview with the BP Alaska employee. It is interesting to note that, while h e was willing to take a huge risk, by going public, others apparently (threatened by BP) were not so willing. Of course, BP claims that they have set up a facility in Alaska to field employee complaints. In the meantime, there are pipelines that burst due to lack of care and lack of inspections. In at least one case, BP said it missed one corroded pipeline, because it could not see it under the snow.
Gives new meaning to a “snowjob”, I suppose.
atlshirt.com
June 24th, 2010
11:55 am
A man like Kruse does not just kill himself, someone was behind it, maybe a government cover-up because he heard a little bit too much, or he found something during the clean up… You can not trust your government, they will kill you !!!
Scout
June 24th, 2010
11:55 am
Jay:
Maybe he killed himself because Obama is doing such a poor job and hindering a lot of Lousiana’s efforts?
Rightwing Troll
June 24th, 2010
11:55 am
Obama pulled the trigger…
There, got that out of the way… let the hyperbole and enunciation of talking points begin!
Rightwing Troll
June 24th, 2010
11:56 am
Ooops! Scout beat me to it!
Southern Comfort
June 24th, 2010
12:00 pm
“His quote to me was, ‘Don’t try to rationalize it. . . . Just sign your name and get on your boat, and don’t try to tell anybody how to run the program, and don’t try to tell ‘em what the local knowledge is,’ ” Capt. Chris Garner said. The point was: The cleanup is hopeless, and you’ll just tire yourself out trying to improve the situation. “I said, ‘Rookie, that sounds an awful lot like prison,’ ” meaning the loss of control, Garner said Wednesday. “He said, ‘That’s a pretty good analysis, Chris. It’s just like prison.’ And he didn’t make it another week.”
That sounds like the words of a man who saw nothing good in his future. God Bless his family and friends.
theyeshaveit
June 24th, 2010
12:00 pm
By the way, while events such as this one will draw our attention first, I have heard that there are volunteer workers and fishermen who are going out on the gulf to help with the clean-up getting sick in the process. All that burning off of oil on the gulf is a health disaster in the making. What can we do about that? Put up a sign that reads,
“Don’t Inhale The Methane” ~~ the folks at BP.
josef nix
June 24th, 2010
12:00 pm
Scooter
You know I am the eternal optimist…not this time.
Jay
June 24th, 2010
12:02 pm
Right Scout.
Scout
June 24th, 2010
12:02 pm
Jay:
Do you know how many military people have committed suicide in the past year? Who caused that?
……….. and while you are researching that, how about the number of our troops that have be killed needlessly by stupid “rules of engagement.”
I’ll be waiting …………………
theyeshaveit
June 24th, 2010
12:02 pm
SPQR and godless heathen – your comments really do bring out the humanity in you. Thanks for your contributions here.
Jay
June 24th, 2010
12:03 pm
Yes Scout.
You will.
josef nix
June 24th, 2010
12:04 pm
A question…
What value do BP and the administration place on his life? Surely their panels of “experts” have calculated that?
Seek counseling? From whom? Where? What do you tell someone contemplating the loss of all he has ever known and held dear? Suck it up, Bubba?
Peadawg
June 24th, 2010
12:04 pm
On a happier note…Isner finally won the 5th set 70-68. Go Dawgs!
Bosch
June 24th, 2010
12:05 pm
Damn.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
I’ll repost something from below since it’s relevant now:
Reminds me of this local commissioner guy I heard on the TV last night – CNN – griping, bitching, complaining, non-stop about Obama and the oil spill — even went so far as to say that Obama is a complete failure because of this this went on to McChrystal and Afghanistan — just griping, bitch, bitch, bitch — this federal bureaucrat is gonna be responsible for thousands of dead pelicans and thousands of people out of jobs……
I thought to myself – okay, say the federal government left your area and left it to you and BP……and we’ll get back to you in say six months for another interview……
RB from Gwinnett
June 24th, 2010
12:06 pm
You all do know BP is going to end up going bankrupt over this and most of these people aren’t going to get much of anything don’t you? I was in Destin a few weeks ago and rented a condo near the beach. When their rental income dries up and they can’t pay the mortgage on that property, do you think BP is going to send them a check? Next year too? How about every restaurant, gas station, beer distributor, hotel maid, etc who will go broke this summer for lack of tourists? BP is done. They can’t possibly fund the entire GDP for the gulf coast that really doens’t have much else to draw on.
I still say this whole thing appears to be handled so poorly by BP and the federal government it almost appears it’s being done on purpose.
Bosch
June 24th, 2010
12:06 pm
Peadawg,
I just read that – that’s awesome!! Go DAWGS!!! (my former stomping grounds)
Doggone/GA
June 24th, 2010
12:07 pm
“What do you tell someone contemplating the loss of all he has ever known and held dear? Suck it up, Bubba?”
Josef…I’m quite well aware that this is going to come across as calouse…but yes, that’s exactly what you tell them. Some people can’t do it, vastly more CAN. I’m beyond sorry that he’s dead, but how is his situation any different from the thousands in Haiti who have had to “suck it up”? Or those in China, or those devasted by the Christmas day tsunami? They had to suck it up too, and get on with their lives.
@@
June 24th, 2010
12:09 pm
SoCo:
That sounds like a man who had lost his independence.
————————————————-
Charter fishermen say they were glad they could make some money working for BP. But they were annoyed by the petty bureaucracy of it: the paperwork, the inane training in avoiding sunburns and wearing life jackets and tennis shoes instead of flip-flops…
Who does that sound like?
Government paperwork? Busy body liberals? The Coast Guard?
No doubt BP wanted to avoid lawsuits by personal injury lawyers, not that I think Mr. Kruse was the kinda guy that would complain about a cut on his foot or a severe sunburn. I’m betting he knew how to swim too.
Doggone/GA
June 24th, 2010
12:09 pm
“You all do know BP is going to end up going bankrupt over this and most of these people aren’t going to get much of anything don’t you?”
Bankruptcy does not diminish the value of their assets. They’ve got billions, if not trillions, of dollars in assets. If they choose bankruptcy, you can bet their creditors will be there to be sure those assets get sold for full market value to pay their debts. Whether those creditors will include the Gulf residents might be debatable…but the assets DO have a lot of value.
Saul Good
June 24th, 2010
12:09 pm
“Two weeks and two days ago, with his fishing grounds closed, Kruse, 55, took a job working for BP’s cleanup crew. For the very people who’d caused the mess.”
Sad…
Yet it’s not unlike how we pay “warlords” in Afghanistan…
I guess it all comes down to “morals”…but I DO believe that if they can get paid to help “clean up” the mess created by BP/Halliburton and the others who helped create this mess (and BTW…WHY do the other companies not have to chip in? Am I missing something here? If so…I apologize).
These are people who lost their livelihood…being a vegan… I don’t agree with the kind of “mass fishing” incorporated around the world… but I understand that most don’t subscribe to my own beliefs (just like I don’t to many of yours)… no matter what…the gusher spouting oil into the gulf right now will “create” jobs in the end… hopefully the MAJORITY of them will be paid for by the very ones who created it in the first place and NOT our tax dollars…not when they were profitable for so many years…
Does anyone forget that when we were all paying $5 a gallon (or more) for gas…that ALL of the oil companies made “RECORD” profits quarter after quarter? If they pissed away their profits…too bad. When they screw up…THEY and their stock holders need to suffer the consequences just as they enjoyed their profits when things were rosy for them. Invested in oil/gas based energy companies and are pissed off now? Tell me how pissed off you were when we were paying record prices at the pump and your stock holdings doubled. Yeah…I too could have invested in those stocks…but it would be the same as me investing in a slaughterhouse…
Just remember…COAL…was once King! It built England into a superpower at the start of the Industrial Revolution… it also was it’s downfall with all they had invested once oil became KING. Do we STILL use COAL? Sure we do…will we ALWAYS be using oil? Sure we will… but it needs to become something we rely upon much less… no matter what… it’s going to happen anyway. Just like the US was an Empire and those who feel “patriotic” ONLY because we were KING of the world… our riches were based upon oil for many years now… and as we slip behind China who is now in place to be the worlds NEXT to ONLY Superpower like we once were… their economy is sucking up oil…but they are ALSO the worlds LARGEST producer of solar power panels.
Too bad Reagan ripped off the solar panels on top of the WH erected by Carter…he said they were a “sign of weakness”… myself…i think had he followed through on Solar back then…we’d have ruled the planet for ANOTHER 100 years…instead of now fading away.
theyeshaveit
June 24th, 2010
12:10 pm
Peadawg, when is his next match? In a couple of hours?
Peadawg
June 24th, 2010
12:13 pm
“Peadawg, when is his next match? In a couple of hours?”
He actually had a doubles match scheduled in an hour….forfeit probably. His 2nd round match is tomorrow.
AmVet
June 24th, 2010
12:13 pm
“godless heathen: No. Bush killed him. Film at 11.”
“Jay: Maybe he killed himself because Obama is doing such a poor job and hindering a lot of Lousiana’s efforts?”
Scout, normally your childish immorality is pretty easy to pass by.
But what is the matter with you? Why must you act so juvenile and say such reprehnesible things?
Your disgusting disregard for this man’s distress and subsequent suicide is just an excuse for you to make some idiotic little political point so that you can bash the president. That is all this means to you.
You are here forever spouting scripture, yet if ANYBODY on this forum is in desperate need of some redemption, it is you.
josef nix
June 24th, 2010
12:14 pm
Doggone
The difference is that in Haiti, China, the tsunami the devastation is at the hand of Mother Nature. It’s over, you may be staring at the ruins but you can suck it up and get busy rebuilding…not in this situation. It came at the hand of man and there is no end in sight…it’s playing out in slow motion…
Callous? Not particularly from the outside looking in where we can afford that luxury of perspective
Scooter
June 24th, 2010
12:14 pm
josef,I think I understand where you are coming from. But, I still cant feel sorry for anyone that takes thier life. Maybe it is because I don’t have any of that culture you spoke of. ????????
@@
June 24th, 2010
12:15 pm
josef:
In the article, the only counseling services were being offered by local churches. Financial aid too.
Come on, buddy. Optimism is contagious as is pessimism.
Southern Comfort
June 24th, 2010
12:15 pm
Who does that sound like?
Government paperwork? Busy body liberals? The Coast Guard?
I put it squarely on BP. They’ve already proven their track record that they are more concerned about their corporate image as opposed to dealing with the problems at hand. There’s issues with everyone involved, but I expect the “experts” to at least appear to be somewhat engaged in fixing things.
Scout
June 24th, 2010
12:16 pm
Jay:
Just as I thought from you.
One guy kills himself (probably because he had mental problems and would have done it anyway) in the Gulf region and you make political hay with a liberal thread.
Meanwhile, hundreds of our troops are dying needlessly (not to mention the suicides) because of stupid rules of engagement and you don’t have the time.
Translation …………… LIBERAL IDEOLOGY !
theyeshaveit
June 24th, 2010
12:17 pm
Doggone, I hear you on the man’s suicide. However, we cannot discount the situation because he was not presumably strong enough to suck it up. In my experience, trying to comfort and/or counsel a severely depressed person by telling them that others are equally depressed simply does not work.
I am somehow reminded of what Jonathan Swift said, “The Stoical scheme of supplying our wants by lopping off our desires, is like cutting off our feet when we want shoes.”
scrappy
June 24th, 2010
12:18 pm
Saul – China is the largest producer of solar panels, but they get shipped out and are not used there.
I would love to see solar powered cars, just stick the panels on the roof, bingo – free fuel. Any energy engineers out there – please get to work on the feasibility of this one.
Scout
June 24th, 2010
12:19 pm
AmVet:
Read my 12:16 ………..
This subject of this thread is reprehensible ideology …………….
Doggone/GA
June 24th, 2010
12:19 pm
“The difference is that in Haiti, China, the tsunami the devastation is at the hand of Mother Nature”
I don’t see the difference. They are ALL disasters. The source of the disaster doesn’t make them any more or less OF a disaster. They have to be dealt with, regardless. Not everyone is going to be able to deal with it, this man apparently couldn’t. That’s no insult to him, but it’s a fact and a reality. Some can’t deal with disasters, many others can.
@@
June 24th, 2010
12:19 pm
I would have no problem with BP paying to relocate, albeit temporarily (those people don’t wanna leave their homes) fisherman to the Atlantic coast. The breadwinner could go, the family stay. There are all sorts of solutions to be found.
Mr. Kruse’s was a permanent solution to a temporary problem.
theyeshaveit
June 24th, 2010
12:19 pm
AmVet, I am with you on your 12:13 post.
Bosch
June 24th, 2010
12:21 pm
Midori,
Not just you hon.
Did you see my post below about the Midori margarita?
theyeshaveit
June 24th, 2010
12:24 pm
Scout said, One guy kills himself (probably because he had mental problems and would have done it anyway)
OK, Scout, somehow in your omniscient position you know that the man “probably had mental problems”. Fine. Then you will not mind when I attribute any of your unfounded comments here to mental issues.
josef nix
June 24th, 2010
12:25 pm
@@
“Come on, buddy. Optimism is contagious as is pessimism.”
I do keep trying, but it’s not easy in this situation…
scooter
I’m glad you see the point…
Doggone
The difference is that in the case of the natural disasters, they’re over, the shock, the resolve to start over has an end in sight…there is no end in sight on this one…
RB from Gwinnett
June 24th, 2010
12:25 pm
Doggie,
You are correct, but the market for used oil rigs is pretty limited. Maybe Chavez will bid high at the auction. Most of the people damaged will never see a dime or if they do it won’t be in time to prevent their own financial disaster. I would also guess (but don’t know much about how this works) BP in the US is a subsidiary of the larger BP and they can take that unit down the bankruptcy road without affecting all the other entities. Every BP gas station owner in this country is about to go belly up too I would guess. Any money for them when they have an empty store with a mortgage and no customers?
And I agree on your “suck it up” post. There are craploads of people all over the country who have lost their job, home, pretty much everything in the last 2 years. I would guess this guy had some other issues going on in his life we don’t know about and I’d actually prefer to keep it that way. Let the man’s family deal with this without the Jay Bookman’s of the world standing on their lawn waving a camera and a $20.
Jefferson
June 24th, 2010
12:25 pm
Scout you remind me of a duckhead. Wonder why?
RIP, Capt.
Saul Good
June 24th, 2010
12:26 pm
Scrappy
Scrappy CoCo by any chance?
Anyway…you said: “Saul – China is the largest producer of solar panels, but they get shipped out and are not used there.”
That’s CORRECT…the EXPORT THEM! So why are our oil companies not using the money they spend on R&D or for oil exploration to PRODUCE Solar Panels? I mean…it’s funny how they ALL have ads on TV (all the oil/gas companies) talking about how GREEN they are…and the new “green” technologies they are coming up with…but truth be told. They’re spending WAY more on their “green advertising” compared to what they are spending on developing clean technologies. For those who watch too much Foxy Barely Legal News…. just google it. If you can’t find it…I’ll post it for ya later…need to run out for a bit!
Outhouse GoKart
June 24th, 2010
12:27 pm
“I guess Allen Kruse didn’t think he’d ever get his life back.”
Well if he cared so little about his own life then so be it. No one knows why this guy selfishly took his own life and no one but his family should care. It could be the BP debacle just as well as one hundred other issues.
So what now…”BP is a Murderer” “BP murdered dear old gramps” “BP took a sawed off shotgun to gran-pappys head and splattered his brains all over the oil soaked beaches”. BAH, Hogwash.
No sympathy here for someone committing such a SELFISH act.
theyeshaveit
June 24th, 2010
12:27 pm
scrappy, maybe function will bring back the style of the sixties – we’ll all have fins on our cars again.
stands for decibels
June 24th, 2010
12:27 pm
Hey, Scout, since you enjoy making fun of 11-year-old girls, I’ve got an even younger one for you.
“My daughter asks him, ‘Daddy, what’s wrong?’ ” she said. “He’ll just tell her, ‘Don’t worry about me. I’m supposed to worry about you.’ ” She said her husband used to sit up and talk with her and watch TV until midnight but now eats his dinner and goes to bed as soon as he gets home. “He’s sad, baby,” she tells her 9-year-old daughter, Laken.
Have fun.
Scooter
June 24th, 2010
12:28 pm
Keep a stiff upper lip josef! I really don’t know what that means but I have heard it all my life. Maybe something good will come of this. Not in our lifetime but maybe someone elses. There is always hope.
godless heathen
June 24th, 2010
12:29 pm
Maybe an analogy can be drawn to the dust bowl days. Many poor sodbusters lost all that they had to a disaster that lasted for years and was man-made. I’m sure a certain number of them couldn’t cope, but most did. Most did the best they could to get through it. Many lost their farms and they went to other places and were probably better off in the long run.
I certainly feel bad for those who are affected by this mess in the Gulf, but some people need to get a grip on reality. The oil flow will be stopped. The fish will come back. Life will return to normal. Maybe poor Mr. Kruse had been watching too much doom and gloom on TV.
josef nix
June 24th, 2010
12:29 pm
“One death is a tragedy. A thousand deaths is a statistic.” –J. Stalin
I know I can get called out for listening to our old nemesis, Lady Hyperbole, but Mr. Krause’s despair is there millions fold. No, those millions won’t commit suicide. But thousands will and they will become a statistic…
@@
I was aware of the lack of counseling and the role of the religious institutions…let’s just hope and pray that they cling more to their Bibles than their guns…
Midori
June 24th, 2010
12:29 pm
Bosch,
i missed it.
is it in the previous thread?
Saul Good
June 24th, 2010
12:29 pm
Scout said, One guy kills himself (probably because he had mental problems and would have done it anyway)
Scout… please… that’s truly sad. Truly sad too that you would say that… because nobody knows but HE…what was the “final straw” in his life.
So much for the “sanctity of life crowd”….
See ya laters pee-pole!
Scout
June 24th, 2010
12:31 pm
theyeshaveit :
Take your best shot. Like I have any control over your posts ?
Jay started this with a liberal thread over a man’s suicide. I said it was “probably” mental problems (as any psychiatrist will tell you) ……….. because Jay politicized it by assuming it was because of BP.
……….. and the real danger to this Republic and everything I cherish “is” Obama !
Scout
June 24th, 2010
12:32 pm
Outhouse GoKart :
Careful ………. you’ll get them all upset !
josef nix
June 24th, 2010
12:33 pm
heathen
Your Dustbowl analogy is the closest I have heard yet to what is going on…
I guess we’ve got a Steinbeck waiting in the wings with another “Grapes of Wrath…” Meanwhile, Tom Joad has to “suck it up.”
I asked the question in all seriousness and the answer seems to be, “yes, suck it up.” Social Darwinism?
neo-Carlinist
June 24th, 2010
12:36 pm
Jay, I have a problem with mawkish (second time I used it today, but my thesaurus is at the cleaners) screeds like this. “…any man’s death diminishes me…”, right? As if this one suicide makes BP really, REALLY awful? You should think about Kruse the next time you start your car, fire up your computer, or hop on an airplane. With the exception of the vegan post, we keep ordering steaks, but want to close the slaughterhouse. As I have said before, BP isn’t the bad news, BP is the messenger.
@@
June 24th, 2010
12:36 pm
SoCo:
Who established safety standards for the clean up workers to follow? There are questions regarding that very subject.
Denise Pouget, an assistant Fire-EMS chief for the city of Alexandria, Va., questioned whether OSHA has allowed for “reduced” training standards of cleanup workers. OSHA has allowed BP to train most workers in handling hazardous materials for four or eight hours — fewer hours than required in other disaster incidents.–McClatchy
josef:
“Be still and know that I AM” or…
Get busy and know that I AM.
Don’t let me, them or Him down.
Scout
June 24th, 2010
12:36 pm
stands for decibels :
Oh, I can give you some sadder ones than that …………… How about some “Daddy” on this 9th deployment to Afghanistan ………. and he doesn’t come back?
RB from Gwinnett
June 24th, 2010
12:37 pm
“Scout… please… that’s truly sad. Truly sad too that you would say that… because nobody knows but HE…what was the “final straw” in his life. ”
Apparently Jay does, Saul. This entire piece was written and posted to imply he killed himself because of BP. No mention of any other possible causes, just BP. Are you going to treat Jay with the same disdain as Scout for claiming he knows anything about this guy?
scrappy
June 24th, 2010
12:37 pm
haha – its scrappy, as in Scooby Do’s nephew, small but with a powerful punch!
I agree Saul, and part of the problem is the lack of true meaning of the word ‘green’. I mean if oil companies are touting how ‘green’ they are, isn’t there a problem there?
I am not much of a conspiracy theorist either, but something is kinda hinky to me with all of the technology we have that no one has come up with better fuel sources.
Bosch
June 24th, 2010
12:37 pm
Midori,
Yeah, but I’ll save you the trouble — I had a Midori Margarita last Sunday for our Father’s Day lunch and it was goooooood!!!
Scout
June 24th, 2010
12:38 pm
neo-Carlinist:
Careful ………….. you’ll get them all upset.
@@
June 24th, 2010
12:38 pm
Oops! Them’s my words, josef…except for the “Be still and know that I AM.”
Those are His.
Lord Help Us
June 24th, 2010
12:38 pm
Scout, ‘Jay politicized it by assuming it was because of BP’
Where?
Looks like you made some more ASSumptions…Now, ‘What Jon Stewart said…’
Scout
June 24th, 2010
12:38 pm
josef:
Did you see my post late last night about Missionary Ridge elementary ?
larry
June 24th, 2010
12:39 pm
I certainly feel bad for those who are affected by this mess in the Gulf, but some people need to get a grip on reality. The oil flow will be stopped. The fish will come back. Life will return to normal.
No, im sorry but life will not return to normal. The one thing this spill is going to create is a dead zone in the Gulf of Mexico , like the one in the Black Sea. The oil, natural gas and methane will suck all the oxygen out of the water. Im afraid the fish will not come back.
Scout
June 24th, 2010
12:39 pm
Lord Help Us:
Nice try.
theyeshaveit
June 24th, 2010
12:40 pm
godless heathen – Regarding the suicides during the dust bowl period, “Many sank into despair and shame after they could not find jobs. The suicide rates increased from 14 to 17 per 100,000.”
Lord Help Us
June 24th, 2010
12:40 pm
Scout, ‘Nice try.’
Nice Dodge…
Scout
June 24th, 2010
12:41 pm
Lord Help Us :
Sure, Jay wrote the thread because he wanted you to think the man committed suicide because the Braves lost to the White Sox again.
That’s what I took away from it.
TaxPayer
June 24th, 2010
12:42 pm
Scout must be trying to fill in for Whine.
Lord Help Us
June 24th, 2010
12:43 pm
Scout, ‘That’s what I took away from it.’
Says it all…
josef nix
June 24th, 2010
12:43 pm
Scout
Got it!
eyes
Thank you for that statistic…what is the sampling? National? Regional? Among just those affected?
Scout
June 24th, 2010
12:46 pm
TaxPayer/Lord Help Us:
You are most welcome.
stands for decibels
June 24th, 2010
12:46 pm
How about some “Daddy” on this 9th deployment to Afghanistan …
If I ever see fit to make fun of something his daughter said, feel free to have at me.
(Particularly if I decide to do it over and over and over and over and over and over and over again in hopes that someone will notice whatever cheap shot I happen to be taking at her dad.)
Outhouse GoKart
June 24th, 2010
12:46 pm
“Aw dern Ma-Mer…Paw paw dun kilt himseff and leave us to pay all these paymints and back taxes and boat paymints and payroll for his crew and all…what we gonna do now…”
theyeshaveit
June 24th, 2010
12:47 pm
Bosch and Midori, excuse my levity amidst this serious issue, but what is in a Midori Magarita that makes it distinct from a regular old Margarita?
AmVet
June 24th, 2010
12:48 pm
eyes, the overwhelming percentage of time here, I discuss the issues and not the other bloggers.
But this ill-mannered cad writes more than just foolish, unsupportable, unresearched, but otherwise harmless, nonsense. This is an instance of his revolting side. Notwithstanding his thinking that he has some high moral ground via his professed and MUCH overplayed Christian mythology.
That no one else will say so, is of no concern to me. When I read such evil and and nauseating posts, that callously belittle a man’s pain and death, I will speak out against them.
theyeshaveit
June 24th, 2010
12:48 pm
josef, here is the dust bowl article that I found:
http://www.nps.gov/archive/elro/glossary/great-depression.htm
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
June 24th, 2010
12:49 pm
So why are our oil companies not using the money they spend on R&D or for oil exploration to PRODUCE Solar Panels? I mean…it’s funny how they ALL have ads on TV (all the oil/gas companies) talking about how GREEN they are…and the new “green” technologies they are coming up with…but truth be told. They’re spending WAY more on their “green advertising” compared to what they are spending on developing clean technologies.
Well, it might could be they’re waiting on a solar panel that runs on gas, I don’t know.
Have a good p.m. everybody. I usually agree with Scout on everything, but this time he’s disgusted even me. And I take a lot to disgust.
Outhouse GoKart
June 24th, 2010
12:49 pm
larry
June 24th, 2010
12:39 pm
“And now for our ecological minute brought to you by laaaaaaaaaary. Take it away laaaaaaaary…oil is bad, mmmmmmmm kay. This has been an ecological minute brought to you by laaaaaaaaaaaaaaaary.”
stands for decibels
June 24th, 2010
12:49 pm
Maybe an analogy can be drawn to the dust bowl days.
I’ve been thinking along those lines too, for awhile now.
Prior to this, the dust bowl could be said to have been this nation’s worst environmental disaster. (and very much man-made.)
Bosch
June 24th, 2010
12:50 pm
eyes,
Instead of the regular orange liqueur of a normal margarita, it has Midori – a fabulous melon flavored liquer – also the name of one of my favorite bloggers here too.
AmVet
June 24th, 2010
12:52 pm
Duty calls and as Jackson Browne wrote:
I’m gonna be a happy idiot
And struggle for the legal tender
Later…
godless heathen
June 24th, 2010
12:53 pm
Well you are wrong, larry and it’s your kind of pseudo-science clap-trap that probably sent Mr. Kruce over the edge. Pick a copy of the book, “Things that the Black Sea and the Gulf of Mexico Have in Common.” It will be a quick read.
josef nix
June 24th, 2010
12:54 pm
@@
The “be still” is welcomed…
For those with the RIP for the captain…the sentiment is from the kind, generous and forgiving hearts…but, for me, no! Don’t rest in peace. May your spirit come forth and haunt and curse the existence of all that which drove you to that grave and may they never know a moment’s peace..
theyeshaveit
June 24th, 2010
12:55 pm
Bosch, thanks. My wife and I enjoy a good magarita every now and then. And yes, I, too, am a Midori fan.
Midori
June 24th, 2010
12:57 pm
you guys are too sweet
just like the liquer!!
@@
June 24th, 2010
12:57 pm
jay’s guilty of supporting “The Copy Cat Effect”.
When researching my book, I looked into this topic, and did write in The Copycat Effect (Simon and Schuster, 2003) one short passage in summary.
Historical studies conducted by sociologist Steven Stack and others have discovered a noticeable dip in suicides and related violent events when there is society-wide anguish, for example, in times of massive immediate grieving in periods of wars and economic depressions.
Will there be an increase in actual suicides “caused” by or in the wake of the Great Crash of 2008? It is highly doubtful.
Nevertheless, look for a dramatic spike in reporting on every stockbroker and bankrupt CEO, fisherman (emphasis mine) who dies by suicide.
http://copycateffect.blogspot.com/2008/10/stock-market-suicides.html
jay, you oughta be ashamed of yourself.
I’m outta here.
RIP, Mr. Kruse…your pain and suffering is over, but you left a lot of people to go it alone without your support. ‘Ya could’a done better.
stands for decibels
June 24th, 2010
1:00 pm
theyes (and anyone else who is interested), I highly recommend The Worst Hard Time: The Untold Story of Those Who Survived the Great American Dust Bowl
Soames
June 24th, 2010
1:01 pm
A sad story for sure. Some people have a hard time dealing with the ebbs and flows of life. I know a lot of people who are going through hard times because they lost their jobs and I feel for them.
Saul @ 12:09
Nuclear and coal are the only viable sources available. We don’t have enough earth mass to accomodate our needs with the available alternatives. Wind and solar power account for just one-sixth of 1% of America’s annual energy consumption today – that’s 0.0016 for all of you engineers out there. To generate electricity comparable to a 1,000 MW gas-fired power plant you’d have to build a wind farm with at least 500 very tall windmills occupying 40,000 acres of land. What about solar power? America’s most productive utility-scale solar electricity plant has a capacity 8.2 MW, and it’s located on 82 acres of land in southwest Colorado. When you take into account the fact that the sun doesn’t always shine, you would need roughly 250 of these plants, occupying roughly 20,000 acres to replace a single 1,000 MW gas-fired power plant (which occupies only 10-15 acres). This is what 30 years and $30B dollars worth of government subsidies gets you. Who’s going to make the biggest polluter on the planet (China) abide by the same rules and cut back on their carbon addiction? That’s where all of the manufacturing went, which is why they are the biggest polluter on the planet. Will politicians rescue us? I think not…Politicians and doomsdayers were wrong in the 70’s when the planet was thought to be cooling (ice age scare) and I bet they will be wrong about our current situation.
@@
June 24th, 2010
1:01 pm
Lawd ah mercy!
I see everyone has resorted to booze.
That’s no solution either.
larry
June 24th, 2010
1:02 pm
well, if that is the case, lets all go to the gulf for a swim….since it is so healthly right now. I am just repeatin g what a marine biologist at UGA is stating. If the fish do come back , it wont be in our lifetime.
Southern Comfort
June 24th, 2010
1:03 pm
@@
At the same time, the government has said BP was in charge. Someone (I don’t really give a rats a$$ who) needs to take charge of the situation. Instead, we have BP and the government both looking as adept as a one-legged man in an a$$-kicking contest.
Outhouse GoKart
June 24th, 2010
1:04 pm
Larry. You dont know that.
larry
June 24th, 2010
1:07 pm
http://www.cnn.com/video/flashLive/live.html?stream=stream3&hpt=T1
Come on , outhouse , lets go for a swim !!!
Im out, i have to pay for the deregulation that helped this happen.
professional skeptic
June 24th, 2010
1:09 pm
AmVet
June 24th, 2010
12:13 pm
I second this. Or third, fourth… where’s the line start?
Bosch
June 24th, 2010
1:09 pm
Snicker. Italy is going home, they finished last…… snort.
josef nix
June 24th, 2010
1:09 pm
eyes
Thanks. It appears to have been a national sampling.
For the record, my personal opinion is that suicide is one of the most selfish acts the human being is capable of. But it is not for me to judge what drives a person to commit that act.
That said, the conclusion I am inclined to draw from what I have read here is that it is suck it up, Bubba and get on with it. The Social Darwinist perspective at work, then what’s the point of even trying to cap the well or clean up the mess…just suck it up as the price of doing bidness and get on with it. It certainly makes it easier. I don’t buy it, but it does make it easier to keep Scooter’s stiff upper lip and @@’s be still…and, well, back to my own d*mnable eternal optimism, it’ll all turn out all right in the long run…
SPQR(laissez Faire)
June 24th, 2010
1:12 pm
WHy would a company allow Hugo sh*thead to nationalize their property? I would set bombs and hugo would have a mass of steel at the bottom of the ocean, which he is welcome to, but I would never hand them over intact.
Supreme court invalidates Skilling and Black convictions…good news for the constitution , for once.
Scout
June 24th, 2010
1:13 pm
AmVet:
I’ve got an idea !
While you are at it, why don’t you speak up for the thousands of unborn children who will be slaughtered today or is that a problem for you because Obama supports that and it’s not BP’s fault?
SPQR(laissez Faire)
June 24th, 2010
1:13 pm
I hope someone takes a shot at Hugo chavez and kills that freak soon.
Bosch
June 24th, 2010
1:14 pm
josef,
“just suck it up as the price of doing bidness and get on with it”
Which is why I don’t understand those blaming the government and griping about their efforts because BP could very easily have taken that position and not a damn thing could have been done about it.
SPQR(laissez Faire)
June 24th, 2010
1:14 pm
Venezuelas economy is the worst in south/central america because it is now the most socialist..see the corrolation?
Scout
June 24th, 2010
1:15 pm
stands for decibels:
“Daddy, why are you sending other daddies to Afghanistan for the 9th time? Some of them don’t come back?”
SPQR(laissez Faire)
June 24th, 2010
1:18 pm
I think the one true time obama hears his kids ask something is when they say “Daddy, can you make your ears flap again?”
Disgusted
June 24th, 2010
1:20 pm
An onslaught of oil has washed ashore at Pensacola Beach. It is the largest amount of oil to hit Florida’s coast yet. Lifelong residents fear the beach life they’ve known is now gone forever. CNN.com
Just wait until it works its way completely around the Florida coast, including Miami and Palm Beach. The current goes in that direction. You’ll see an almost complete folding of the tourism business. Drill, baby, drill indeed!
Southern Comfort
June 24th, 2010
1:21 pm
Kinda off topic but in the spirit of energy regulations…
http://www2.timesdispatch.com/news/2010/jun/23/MASSGAT23-ar-229600/
Massey Energy sues federal agency
The suit asks the court to rule that the Mine Safety and Health Administration can not dictate mine ventilation plans; that a coal company has the right to a hearing when the federal agency denies a ventilation plan; and that coal firms can use scrubbers, which Massey claims reduces coal dust coming off on machines.
I can understand the last two somewhat, but doesn’t the first thing sounds like regulations. Does Massey want a court to rule that the MSHA can not regulate ventilation in mines? Is ventilation not part of “Safety” and “Health” in a mine environment? Or am I just comprehending this wrong?
SPQR(laissez Faire)
June 24th, 2010
1:22 pm
Disgusted, just curious, what the hell does your car run on..and how many plastic items do you use
Outhouse GoKart
June 24th, 2010
1:24 pm
Now if Mr Kruse had been served up heaping helping of Hamburger Helper, by his wifey, the I could more understand this suicide if not possibly condone it.
This being the case…do we have any updates on the Hamburger Helper Factor?
@@
June 24th, 2010
1:25 pm
SoCo:
Agreed!
jay:
This one’s for you.
I make my living off the evening news, people love it when you lose. Get the bubble headed bleach blond, comes on at 5, she can tell you about the plane crash, with the gleam in her eye, it’s interesting when people die- give us dirty laundry. Kick em when they’re up, kick em when they’re down, kick em when they’re stiff, kick em all around – Don Henley
You are Henley’s “benevolent” dictator in that you dictate text.
Now I’m gone…for now anyway.
Normal
June 24th, 2010
1:26 pm
Scout,
been on the phone talking to my sister, so I missed your posts of 11:55 and 12:02. I see AmVet replied and good for him, but I gotta say this.
I agree with you that the ROEs are stupid. Always have been, always will be. We both know that ROEs are natures way of showing how chickensh*t our leaders are. And I think, if you’ve been honest with your service stories, you nknow why some of us take our own lives.
Bottom line, they have nothing to do with your posts. You can’t presume that Mr. Kruse was insane and “would have done it anyway”. not very Christian. And as much as you’d like too, you can’t rightfully blame President Obama. Mr. Kruse lost his livelyhood, a way of life that he has probably known since birth and had wanted no other. To see your world destroyed by another’s mistakes, is like seeing your child run over by a drunk driver. Very devastating.
Final thought. Nobody knew what was going to happen in the beginning of the spill. BP kept covering up and we (President Obama and most of us) believed them because we wanted to, and if President Obama had jumped in then, you’d be screaming bloodly murder about too much government interference, or some such thing. As things got progressively worse, President Obama started looking for ways to help, but still wanted BP to take charge, as it was their fault. Options failed, and here we are.
A man’s way of life is probably gone forever and all you do is try to put the balame on Obama. Why don’t you send a letter of apology to BP?. Good grief, man, have some empathy.
TaxPayer
June 24th, 2010
1:26 pm
Is the use of birth control, such as “the pill” or even condoms, considered “killing the unborn”.
SPQR(laissez Faire)
June 24th, 2010
1:27 pm
Panama city beach is still open for business, and all areas south of shell island open for fishing.
Outhouse GoKart
June 24th, 2010
1:30 pm
Ive been to shell island…
Normal
June 24th, 2010
1:30 pm
Josef,
you said, “For the record, my personal opinion is that suicide is one of the most selfish acts the human being is capable of.”
Again I disagree. I believe that suicide is the most unselfish act a person can do. I’ll explain at St. Eslewhere, if you’re interested, but bottom line, it’s my body, my life.
Outhouse GoKart
June 24th, 2010
1:32 pm
Thats correct…its MY life, its MY body and who cares about others its MINE.
The democratic I ME MINE theory raised its head yet again.
Scout
June 24th, 2010
1:34 pm
Normal:
1) Agree with you on the ROE’s. In fact, I was at Camp Carroll (forward Marine artillery base near the DMZ) on 12/25/67 when a 24 hour truce was called by our side (and again on 1/1/68). During those periods, the NVA pounded the heck out of us with their artillery (we did not respond until the stroke of midnight 12/25 and 1/1) and used the opportunity to run supplies freely down the Ho Chi Minh Trail.
Now who do you suppose authorized that truce? Our military leaders in Vietnam or the politicians in Washington?
2) Regarding the rest of your comments, yes it is a shame that Jay politicized the suicide of this man with this thread by assuming (as you say) he did it because of the oil spill.
Thank you for the exchange.
SPQR(laissez Faire)
June 24th, 2010
1:35 pm
Other than terminal bone cancer, I can’t think of many situations where homicide can’t clear up a problem better than suicide, because it’s usually other people causing the problem.
Southern Comfort
June 24th, 2010
1:35 pm
Normal
Clue me in on that 1:30 as well. Your final thought @ 1:26 was well thought out as well.
Lord Help Us
June 24th, 2010
1:37 pm
Scout, ‘Jay politicized the suicide of this man with this thread by assuming (as you say) he did it because of the oil spill..’
Where?
Scout
June 24th, 2010
1:38 pm
Lord Help Us :
Are you back again? I told you it was because the Braves lost to the White Sox ! Surely, you can see that !
Bosch
June 24th, 2010
1:39 pm
Scout,
How exactly did Jay politicize this man’s suicide – he reported it happened. Where did he mention politics? I believe that was you politicized it when you blamed Obama for the man’s death.
Scout
June 24th, 2010
1:40 pm
Jay:
Please tell “Lord Help Us” why you wrote this thread and why you think this poor man killed himself.
Bosch
June 24th, 2010
1:41 pm
Scout,
Jay did that already. Backpeddling from showing your ass is not very becoming on you.
Lord Help Us
June 24th, 2010
1:41 pm
Scout, ‘Are you back again?’
I show up now and then when people make ugly accusations and then refuse to back them up…
jt
June 24th, 2010
1:41 pm
An Indiana man has apparently filed suit against the IRS, blaming his wife’s suicide on an IRS raid on their home in 2007. James Simon, 57, filed suit against the IRS and its agents, claiming that 10 IRS agents in bulletproof vests raided his family’s home around 7:00 am on the morning of Nov. 6, 2007. Simon was away in Ukraine at the time, but his wife Denise and their 10-year-old daughter were there. She was apparently grilled about a family trust, farm subsidies and other tax matters, causing emotional distress.
In a suicide note, she later wrote, “I am truly innocent of any attempt to evade taxes, launder money, commit fraud or any of the other things I am being accused of.”
Steven Miller, deputy commissioner for services and enforcement at the IRS, testified before the Senate Finance Committee on Thursday in a hearing on various aspects of this tax season. “We recognize that some people are struggling to meet their tax obligations and need assistance,” he said in his prepared testimony. “The IRS wants to do everything it can to help those taxpayers who have lost their job or face financial strain, especially those who have done the right thing in the past and are facing unusual hardships.”
However, Miller also discussed the agency’s stepped-up enforcement efforts. “Vigorous enforcement also encourages voluntary compliance, further increasing revenue, by generating public awareness of the consequences of not meeting one’s tax responsibilities,” he said.
SPQR(laissez Faire)
June 24th, 2010
1:43 pm
IRS agents are scum , pure scum, and if they get hit by lightning, good.
Scout
June 24th, 2010
1:43 pm
Bosch:
No. Your reading skills are poor. Read my post. I said “maybe” ………….
“Maybe he killed himself because Obama is doing such a poor job and hindering a lot of Louisiana’s efforts?”
…………. and “maybe” it was as much Obama’s fault for not responding effectively enough …….. or “maybe” BP’s fault or “maybe” mental illness …………. take your pick.
Scout
June 24th, 2010
1:44 pm
Lord Help Us:
LOL !
Matilda
June 24th, 2010
1:44 pm
People do it because they can’t take the pain anymore. They have to make it stop. Those who are quick to judge just never felt pain that powerful, and should be grateful for that, except they’d rather judge others instead, because putting people down is the only way they know to feel good about themselves.
scrappy
June 24th, 2010
1:45 pm
jt – I’m confused… are we supposed to be blaming Obama for this woman’s suicide? Or are we supposed to be praising Obama because he is making people pay taxes?
Outhouse GoKart
June 24th, 2010
1:46 pm
All IRS employees should be fed Hamburger helper 24/7.
Bosch
June 24th, 2010
1:46 pm
Scout,
It doesn’t matter with the word “maybe” – you brought up Obama therefore politicizing it and trying in vain to blame Jay for it taking the responsibility of the situation off yourself — typical wingnut hypocrisy — and further showing your ass by dodging it to include a comparison abortion and mocking a child. You should stop while your ahead, go to church and say some prayers for your soul.
Scout
June 24th, 2010
1:47 pm
jt:
I know ……….. I used to work for IRS-CID.
Later, when I was a supervisor with the USSS I sent two of my squad agents out to investigate a possible threat against the POTUS. That night (after the interview) the individual committed suicide. Whose fault?
Scout
June 24th, 2010
1:47 pm
Bosch:
You’re a piece of work. LOL !
Bosch
June 24th, 2010
1:49 pm
Scout,
Blog God blocked me from saying what you are a piece of.
Outhouse GoKart
June 24th, 2010
1:49 pm
Obama should be force fed Hamburger Helper….BurgerBoarded if you will.
Scout
June 24th, 2010
1:50 pm
Matilda :
We are not putting this guy down or judging him.
We are only discussing reasons as to why he might have done it.
The only reason we are doing that is because Jay (with everything else going on in the world) chose it as a thread this morning.
AmVet
June 24th, 2010
1:51 pm
My client has been delayed, so I can hang out a bit longer. (whilst working on other items.)
Corporal, you’re doing one helluva ballerina imitation.
SPQR, you talk a BIG game. Maybe you’re just the guy to take out Chavez. And those IRS agents. (Does that include former ones like the ballerina?) And the gawdknows how many innumerable others you want disappeared.
You are a caricature of the impotent but bloodlusting far right wing…
Scout
June 24th, 2010
1:51 pm
Bosch:
Good !
“Cursing is the effort of a feeble mind to express itself forcibly.”
Scout
June 24th, 2010
1:52 pm
AmVet :
Did I ever tell you the favorite thing we used to like to play on defense attorneys ?
Scout
June 24th, 2010
1:53 pm
Outhouse GoKart :
Careful ……….. don’t cross a line.
Outhouse GoKart
June 24th, 2010
1:54 pm
“And the gawdknows how many innumerable others you want disappeared.”
Kinda like the Star Trek Mirror Mirror episode where the evil Mr Spock was shown the device in the evil Capt Kirks quarter that just by pressing “this little button” one could make ones enemies disappear.
Jackie
June 24th, 2010
1:54 pm
@Scout
You know that if YOU had violated any of the rules of the Geneva Convention during your tour of The ‘Nam, your hip would have been in the brig before “quick gets ready.”
When and where were the rules of engagement designed to keep any of our troops from protecting themselves against an armed enemy? Are you saying that all those in Vietnam were part of the Viet Cong/NVA infrastructure, therefore, we did not do enough to eliminate those that caused us harm?
With that logic, all we had to do was remove the troops and drop nuclear weapons on the country. Victory is ours!
Outhouse GoKart
June 24th, 2010
1:55 pm
No threats were made…direct or indirect.
Scout
June 24th, 2010
1:56 pm
Outhouse GoKart:
I know …………. just sayin.
Bosch
June 24th, 2010
1:57 pm
“Cursing is the effort of a feeble mind to express itself forcibly”
Says the Puritans.
Scout
June 24th, 2010
2:02 pm
Jackie:
If you are serious about this discussion of ROE’s may I suggest you read “Firebase Ripcord” by Keith Nolan.
In brief ……….. it was the Army’s last major battle in Vietnam. The Battalion Commander won the Medal of Honor posthumously. His unit was at a remote firebase and was being over-run by Regiments of NVA. At one point when they asked for artillery support they were told “they had already utilized their allocation for the month” …………… and that was per the U.S. Congress who had set the limit for the number of artillery rounds a unit could use per month. Good men died because of that and no one was ever held to account ………….. criminal account !
It’s being done again in different ways in Afghanitan. Makes me sick !
Oh, peridious nation !
Normal
June 24th, 2010
2:02 pm
Josef, SoCo,
St. Elsewhere…
Scout
June 24th, 2010
2:03 pm
Bosch:
Says me.
Scout
June 24th, 2010
2:03 pm
Excuse me ………. “perfidious”
Matilda
June 24th, 2010
2:03 pm
Scout,
If you didn’t do it, then I wasn’t talking about you, and therefore do not understand your use of the word “we” to defend what someone else said with which you do not concur.
joan
June 24th, 2010
2:03 pm
Every grifter in the country will be out there after BP for a handout–Obama was just the first.
Midori
June 24th, 2010
2:04 pm
Normal,
I doubt if he can find empathy in the dictionary.
SPQR(laissez Faire)
June 24th, 2010
2:04 pm
It’s illegal to say one wants to off certain peoples, ask scout..i’m not stupid. Just hatefull..
SPQR(laissez Faire)
June 24th, 2010
2:04 pm
I still want Hugo Chavez to die, I am pretty sure he has no value .
Jackie
June 24th, 2010
2:05 pm
@Scout
Since you have read the book, tell me what firebase, why Army division was involved in that debacle.
Don’t believe it.
As for you and your experience, did you ever encounter ANY incidents where you were ordered not to protect yourself for enemy fire?
Outhouse GoKart
June 24th, 2010
2:05 pm
Well then Joan I too want my Obama-BP check…
“Im rich BEEATCH!”
Steve
June 24th, 2010
2:05 pm
I see several references to this being a temporary problem. That is correct in that it will be over in a finite amount of time. However most estimates I’ve heard are quoting possibly 10 or more years for the environmental impact to heal. For a fisherman in that area that’s 55 years old, that pretty much means they may never see it as it was.
AmVet
June 24th, 2010
2:05 pm
OGK, don’t recall that episode, but in regards to the would be hitman, I was thinking of disappeared more along the lines of the 30,000 or so Argentine civilians who suffered that fate in the 1970s and 80s at the hands of the dictators who ran the country. (Saint Ronnie loved and armed the murderers.)
Bosch
June 24th, 2010
2:06 pm
Scout,
More like, says the champion in your own mind.
joan
June 24th, 2010
2:08 pm
Say what you will about suicide, but it does separate the weak from the strong. The only time it shows strength is when you are old, veg like and are more of a burden on the world than not. Oh, I forgot a lot of people are veg like and more of a burden on the world than not. If they committed suicide our economy would be well on the road to recovery.
SPQR(laissez Faire)
June 24th, 2010
2:08 pm
I wish i did have a button I could push to make people disappear forever..Me and charlie daniels and the staff at the coors distillery would have a wide open universe.
Outhouse GoKart
June 24th, 2010
2:10 pm
AV…thats the episode where there were parallel universes with one being Starship Enterprise as the usual good guys and Starship Enterprise the Bad Guys.
The Bad Kirk and company just cruised around blowing up planets and killing everyone possible. Plus Lt Uhura was scamperig about with cute little red skirt with gold trim, bare belly and low cut top…as the evil Lt Uhura she was even more sexy than usual.
Bad Sulu made an attempt on Good Kirks life.
Bad Sulu made an attempt to seduce Uhura who pulled a knife on Bad Sulu.
One of the better episodes.
Normal
June 24th, 2010
2:10 pm
Careful Joan, you might end up on that list…
Jay
June 24th, 2010
2:11 pm
Scout, the nonsense you are willing to believe and repeat is simply astounding.
So Congress set a limit on the number of artillery rounds each unit could use? That makes your handshake claim seem almost plausible by comparison.
Jackie
June 24th, 2010
2:14 pm
@Joan
Using your logic, it appears you would be first in line. NO?????
Scout
June 24th, 2010
2:15 pm
Jackie:
You have hurt my feelings in questioning my integrity. However, I will respond:
1) “Ripcord (Screaming Eagles Under Siege – Vietnam 1970 by Keith Nolan, Presidio Press, 2000
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andre_Lucas READ THE BOOK !
2) I just told you …………. we were being pummeled by NVA artillery and we were NOT ALLOWED to return fire during the truce. What part of that do you not understand ?
Scout
June 24th, 2010
2:17 pm
Jay:
…………. and I suppose you don’t believe that President Johnson and McNamara picked individual targets to be bombed (or not) in N.V. ?
READ THE BOOK !
Scout
June 24th, 2010
2:21 pm
Jay:
………. and while you’re at it ……. this one just out:
“An American Amnesia (How the U.S. Congress Forced the Surrender of South Vietnam and Cambodia)” by Bruce Herschensohn
AmVet
June 24th, 2010
2:21 pm
i’m not stupid. Just hatefull..
LOL. I like the honesty. Alas, iIf only le petite caporal valued such a concept…
OGK,
Dammit Jim! You’re making me want to see those old shows again. Perish the thought, am I going to have scour the TVLand listings?
Jay
June 24th, 2010
2:23 pm
Scout I do believe that they picked individual targets. That’s well documented.
BADA BING
June 24th, 2010
2:24 pm
Daddy, have you and BP done anything for the ’small people’ yet?
BADA BING
June 24th, 2010
2:28 pm
Here is something none of you small minded people have not said. ‘GOD rest his soul and be with his family”.
RF
June 24th, 2010
2:28 pm
Scout, et.al.: Depression, which is what leads to most suicides, is either chronic to a person, or situational based on stress. Most people face some depression at various times and we all cope differently. It would seem the abrupt change in this guy’s behavior signalled a bout of depression he just couldn’t cope with. I don’t think it’s fair to say he would have done it sooner or later anyway. Clearly the recent stress on his business was a big contributor to his decision.
What makes it sad, and this isn’t liberal or conservative in nature, is that the mess we want the government to fix was caused by a corporation whose bottom line is money, not safety. The well was over budget and behind schedule, so it made fiscal sense to cut corners. Basically no government or corporate oversight of safety encouraged reckless behavior that is now costing everyone connected with this in any remote way (all of us eventually). Deregulation is partly to blame as is lack of monitoring by federal and state agencies charged with that job.
Outhouse GoKart
June 24th, 2010
2:30 pm
LOL…
Union
June 24th, 2010
2:32 pm
“A lot of damage in Gulf can’t be counted, compensated”
so very very true… sigh
Scout
June 24th, 2010
2:33 pm
Jay @ 2:23:
Good – I’m glad you believe that ………….. and how stupid was it!
Now, read the two books I mentioned and you will discover additional “documented” stunts by the Congress of the United States !
Scout
June 24th, 2010
2:34 pm
Jackkkkiiieee:
Are you out there re: my 2:15 ?
Opus
June 24th, 2010
2:35 pm
To bad General Mcchrystal-light wasn’t in the Gulf he could have covered up this incident/suicide like he covered up the murder/friendly fire of Tillman….
Jackie
June 24th, 2010
2:35 pm
@Scout
You are talking about what went on with the 101st at Hamburger Hill in 1970. I know personally, a 1st Lt that was part of that operation. He has NEVER indicated that they had trouble getting ammuntion to their unit(s). Secondly, the 101st operated jointly with the 1st Cav. There were literally hundreds of interlocking firebases around that area. They were designed to interdict supplies on the Ho Chi Minh trail and at various times, the Command in Siagon decided to fight for insignificant pieces of territory. This happened to be one of those fights.
Secondly, there were many “truces” called; Christmas, Tet, Easter, someone’s birthday. I have witnessed with my own eyes and ears where we fired back if someone fired at us during one of those truce periods.
I have 3 high school classmates that were at Dong He and NONE has ever recounted any experiences like you have described. My wife’s brother was a KIA in the 1st Marine/1st Battalion, Company C. His high school friend was with him at the time (1967) of his death. On top of that, a very good friend was a E7 in the Corps and operated in that area and DID NOT experience any of the denial of artillery cover that you purport.
Where do you get this crap?
BADA BING
June 24th, 2010
2:36 pm
Since some of you cannot vacation in the Gulf this year, go to Arizona and support their economy. The Parks Dept. has suspended any entrance fees and you can see the Grand Canyon for free.
BADA BING
June 24th, 2010
2:39 pm
BP has just begun to feel pain. Wait till the oil hits the beaches at Cuba, the Bahamas, Mexico, Venezuela, and Central America. Lawsuits are just beginning.
Jackie
June 24th, 2010
2:40 pm
@Scout
Since you were in the tri-border area, did you ever get over to Laos? Do you believe that more ordinance was dropped in Laos that in Vietnam? They have so many unexploded bombs and bomblets from the cluster bombs, Laotians live and work among the bombs/bomblets and many are still killed daily from this unexploded ordinance.
Do you think we didn’t have enough ammunition to support our troops?
And, we were able to support our “friends” in the highlands, including the Mong and Montanyards(sic), to name a few.
Jackie
June 24th, 2010
2:43 pm
@Scout
Where you be?; anymore fairy tales for those that you try to impress?
Opus
June 24th, 2010
2:45 pm
Scout,
Next time you go out on patrol, pick up some faded glory jeans at walmart…..
Scout
June 24th, 2010
2:48 pm
Jackie:
You couldn’t be more wrong:
1) Hamburger Hill (5/10 -20/1969) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Hamburger_Hill
2) Ripcord (7/1-23/1970) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Fire_Support_Base_Ripcord
You are really embarrassing yourself now. Those were two separate battles almost a year apart.
If you won’t read the book I can’t make you ………………
I don’t believe you were at Camp Carroll on 12/25/67 or 1/1/68 so you wouldn’t know about the incoming vs. outgoing artillery now would you?
I am actually growing weary of supplying all of this documentation to you.
Outhouse GoKart
June 24th, 2010
2:49 pm
Those Laotian and Cambodian women are attractive.
Hillbilly Deluxe
June 24th, 2010
2:51 pm
Having, unfortunately, known several people who killed themselves, I see this a little differently. The vast majority of the time, you never see it coming and if you do, you are often powerless to do anything to stop it. No one can ever really know what causes another person to lose all hope or why one will keep plugging when another can go no farther. The one certainty is that it will leave those around the person with questions that’ll never be answered.
So my thoughts and prayers are with the man’s family and friends; they have a rough road ahead. As the headline on this piece says, not everything in this world can be fixed with dollars.
Scout
June 24th, 2010
2:59 pm
Oh Jackkkkiiieeee ……… 2:48 !!
Jackie
June 24th, 2010
3:04 pm
@Scout
You are right, Hamburger Hill was 1969, not 1970. Still does not prove your contention that ammunition or cover fire was denied the 101st.
Being a Camp Carroll in 1967 for a violation of a cease-fire is an example of what you experienced. Were you at An Khe or Pleiku during Tet of 1968? Did you witness the cease-fire violations during that period.
Did you witness the incursions into North Vietnam, Laos or Cambodia during your stay in country? Did you notice how we failed to support our allies in the highlands while you were in country?
SPQR(laissez Faire)
June 24th, 2010
3:06 pm
The land isn’t ruined forever, no matter how much oil spills, it will dissipate quickly. Within 2-3 years after they stem the flow, noone will know it happened just from looking at the water or beaches.
SPQR(laissez Faire)
June 24th, 2010
3:06 pm
And dollars do fix damn near everything..not quite, but damn near..
RW-(the original)
June 24th, 2010
3:11 pm
…more ordinance was…
…this unexploded ordinance.
Ordinance? Really?
/drive by…
@@
June 24th, 2010
3:17 pm
Merciful Percival! The ocean isn’t the only attraction in the gulf. Go down and support those people. EAT MORE TURF, LESS SURF!
BP could pay the cost of importing seafood.
Charter fishing? Howzabout Eco Awareness charters? Deep Sea Trophy Fishing, way, waaayyy out.
This is one of the best sites I’ve found for tracking impacts.
josef nix
June 24th, 2010
3:18 pm
Normal
At St. Elsewhere
Scout
June 24th, 2010
3:26 pm
Jackie:
“You are talking about what went on with the 101st at Hamburger Hill in 1970. I know personally, a 1st Lt that was part of that operation. He has NEVER indicated that they had trouble getting ammuntion to their unit(s).”
1) Thank you for admitting that you were wrong and that the Battles of Hamburger Hill and Firebase Ripcord were two separate events almost a year apart.
2) Now, if you will read the book you will discover that when companies and platoons protecting Firebase Ripcord were being over-run, they called for artillery fire support. Basic stuff. There were times when the battery they contacted told them they had “already expended their allocated rounds for the month” and they would have to contact another battery. This “allocation” per battery had been set by the U.S. Congress. While all of this was going on ……….. good men died for lack of immediate fire support.
3) I never got any farther south than Quang Tri but did get as far north as the river in the DMZ that separated North from South Vietnam. I was not at the other locations you mentioned.
4) If you will also read “An American Amnesia” you will realize just how much the U.S. Congress failed to support our allies.
Have to run for awhile …………. enjoyed the exchange.
P.S. I try to be as truthful as I can in my posts. If I make a mistake I correct it. I hope in the future you will accept my posts as accurate unless you have firsthand knowledge otherwise.
Take care ……………
stands for decibels
June 24th, 2010
3:27 pm
> …this unexploded ordinance.
Ordinance? Really?
What, you’ve never experienced laws that took awhile to blow up?
@@
June 24th, 2010
3:29 pm
Shout out to all the “lesser” Saints…
meet me Somewhere.
(ISH)
Grumpy
June 24th, 2010
3:30 pm
Anecdotal reports are always emotional, and often help fuel knee-jerk reactions.
I have a bigger question – why aren’t all hands on deck to skim/contain/burn this oil? 60 days in, why hasn’t the government been able to get more people and equipment out there to do the job? This is the big government the lefties want and love, so why is it STILL failing us?
I don’t blame Obama for the immedate (2-3 week) aftermath. But now we all know the dung has hit the fan. So why aren’t we throwing EVERYTHING we’ve got at the problem?
Hillbilly Deluxe
June 24th, 2010
3:33 pm
I wonder how many people realize that in the early 19th century “Laissez Faire” was a quite liberal concept. Time does have a way of turning things upside down.
Finn McCool
June 24th, 2010
3:35 pm
What else you want to throw at it, Grumpy?
Finn McCool
June 24th, 2010
3:36 pm
How do the Dutch play such good soccer? Aren’t they all high as kites?
josef nix
June 24th, 2010
3:39 pm
When I made the comment earlier that I personally considered suicide one of the most selfish act the human being was capable of, I also added that it was not up to me to judge what drove them to that act. I was interested in the reaction and from whom. I said it in as plain and Engrish as I could master. A soldier who throws himself an a grenade to save fellow soldiers is committing suicide if we use that term to mean willful ending of one’s own life. S/he is a hero(ine), Someone who sticks their head in the oven because the spouse got caught with a piece on the side and leaves some high drama note, is something probably motivated by the far less noble. It, too, is a willful ending of one’s own life. When my Mama, in the final stages of cancer, upped the morphine to go on out with the least fuss, that, too was willful ending of her own life. (And I pray G-d that if I am in such a position that I have the presence of mind and wherewithal to do the same.) In all these cases, though, it is the supremely selfish act. That is why I said what I did about not judging what motivates the individual to take that action.
Looking for a change
June 24th, 2010
3:40 pm
Because people don’t have enough money to cover their checks, I’m looking for a change.
Bank of America Corp. and its rivals are moving away from free checking accounts as they grapple with losing millions in fee revenue from new regulations on overdrafts.
Thanks for nothing, deadbeats.
Bosch
June 24th, 2010
3:42 pm
Looking for a change,
Credit Unions all the way.
Finn,
Maybe they play good soccer BECAUSE they are high as kites?
Hehehehe. Italy’s a going home!
Bosch
June 24th, 2010
3:43 pm
Finn,
And in other soccer/drug humor – Bong has been replaced with Aboubakar for Cameroon.
josef nix
June 24th, 2010
3:52 pm
Hillbilly
Your comment on laissez-faire being liberal was interesting. From time to time some of the posters here and my colleagues elsewhere question my labeling of myself a liberal. If it doesn’t fit the latest memo to the Engrish speaking partisans, if “conservative” and my line of philosophical thought is “theirs” then I must be a “conservative.” It “liberal” and my opinion doesn’t agree with the latest memo, then I must be a “conservative.” I find it all rather amusing. So few using the labels have the vaguest notion of what the terms mean, much less the past contributions of each, In my opinion this is why we have such a difficult time reaching the centrist point which, I believe, is where most of the population is at any given time on any given “hot topic.” Centricism is not my own cup of tea, but that’s me, not my society.
Jackie
June 24th, 2010
3:53 pm
@Scout
Your contention about a field unit calling for artillery cover and being denied because of allotments, I find to be absolutely ludicrous. Do not believe it for a moment. Since there Airmobile concept was being employed and there was a possibility of any unit being overrun, I can gurantee you that all forces in the US military would be brought to bear to stop this from happening.
As for support of our “allies” where are most of the Mong and Montgards today? They are in the USA.
N-GA
June 24th, 2010
3:57 pm
Looking – If you or a close relative have served in the ,military, then choose USAA. They are terrific and have a complete set of bank/brokerage/insurance products, low costs/fees, and first rate customer service. BTW, they have the highest possible rating a financial institution can receive relative to the health/stability of the company.
@@
June 24th, 2010
4:04 pm
josef:
If it doesn’t fit the latest memo to the Engrish speaking partisans, if “conservative” and my line of philosophical thought is “theirs” then I must be a “conservative.” It “liberal” and my opinion doesn’t agree with the latest memo, then I must be a “conservative.”
To be sure, you ARE queer.
(IW&SH)
getalife
June 24th, 2010
4:06 pm
Another worker drowned bringing the total to thirteen so far.
Hillbilly Deluxe
June 24th, 2010
4:09 pm
Josef
Well in my view, and I didn’t originate the idea, the idea that a man could compete and get ahead through his own efforts was quite liberal in what was in many ways still a patrician society.
Of course, the granting of corporate “personhood” defies description to me. As you know, most early corporations were granted charters by the state, for a specific lengrh of time to accomplish a certain goal or task. It was later in the 19th century when they morphed towards what they are now.
I’ve said before that I think the words liberal and conservative have lost all meaning in most cases. There are still a few people who are one or the other in the classic sense but they are few and far between.
As for me, I think I defy description.
josef nix
June 24th, 2010
4:13 pm
@@
Cute! Of all the words we use, I actually prefer “queer” since it describes a lot more of me than just my sex life! When folks, almost always breeders, tell me, “don’t call yourself that,” they, having themselves used it as the n word plenty of times, I tell them “I was queer a long time before I knew I was ‘gay!”
Scout
June 24th, 2010
4:13 pm
Jackie:
You told me once before “I was full of crap” (and Jay basically said the same thing about my contention on the lack of proper artillery support) until I was able to prove to you that Hamburger Hill and Firebase Ripcord were two separate battles. I find it odd that you question another Veteran’s credibility on this? I have no agenda here ……….. I’m just repeating history. I agree it’s ludicrous but if it happened it happened.
I’m only telling you what is documented in the book about how the artillery fire support was impeded when they needed it most and immediately. This is not something I dreamed up out of thin air. If I had not read the book and discovered all of the political ramifications therein I would not even have known about this battle as I in the Marines not the Army. As it was (and this is again DOCUMENTED in the book) the Army kept the entire incident/battle pretty much hidden until 1985 (kind of like the USS Liberty debacle involving Israel). It’s up to you to read about it or not. I would think you would want to?
In addition, they (Firebase Ripcord Veterans) have a website if you would like more information or want to do more research.
http://www.ripcordassociation.com/
josef nix
June 24th, 2010
4:16 pm
Hilbilly
“As for me, I think I defy description.
”
Oh, no! You’re queer! (ref. mine and @@’s exchange!)
Lord Help Us
June 24th, 2010
4:19 pm
‘I have no agenda here…’
Priceless…
Jefferson
June 24th, 2010
4:23 pm
So who’s up for a tax increase to “throw everything at the problem”?
Hillbilly Deluxe
June 24th, 2010
4:24 pm
Josef
Actually, what I’ve most often been referred to is “quare”. In my world, that means odd, stand-offish, different, kinda sorta. About half my family is known that way locally, as in “they’re a quare bunch”. It’s one of colloquial terms you either know or you don’t. I believe it’s origin is Irish but not sure.
AmVet
June 24th, 2010
4:24 pm
Hillbilly, to your point about “Laissez Faire” being a quite liberal concept, of course it is!
Economic liberalism is the economic component of classical liberalism. It is an economic philosophy that supports and promotes laissez-faire economics. Proponents of economic liberalism believe political freedom and social freedom are inseparable with economic freedom, and use philosophical arguments promoting liberty to justify economic liberalism and the free market.
It is to me yet another of the many ironies of the Republicans who call themselves, and mistakenly believe they are in fact, conservatives.
And as josef noted, most of these so called conservatives have very little if any clue what it really is. I know, I’ve asked repeatedly.
Bosch
June 24th, 2010
4:25 pm
http://www.ajc.com/news/georgia-politics-elections/palin-events-unexpected-hurdle-556123.html
Well, well, it seems Bible Spice ain’t all that.
josef nix
June 24th, 2010
4:34 pm
Hillbilly
I believe its Scots-Scots Irish-Irish in the pronunciation and usage you grew up with. In my area it was pronounced more kw-air and was not particularly derogatory. It was used most often to refer to what we’d call “challenged” today! “That youngest ‘un of theirs is a mite qu-air, but then that whole bunch of ‘em’s got a little sumpin wrong with ‘em. Bless their hearts.”
SPQR(laissez Faire)
June 24th, 2010
4:44 pm
CHICAGOLAND BOMBSHELL: Obama knew plot to trade Cabinet post for appointing Jarrett to Senate — Testimony…
RAHM DELIVERED THE LIST…
top aide to former Gov. Rod Blagojevich said he believed Barack Obama knew of Blagojevich’s plot to win himself a presidential Cabinet post in exchange for appointing Valerie Jarrett to the U.S. Senate.
John Harris, Blagojevich’s former chief of staff, testified Wednesday in the former governor’s corruption trial that three days after the Nov. 4, 2008, presidential election, the ex-governor told Harris he felt confident Obama knew he wanted to swap perks.
Hillbilly Deluxe
June 24th, 2010
4:45 pm
Josef
“Kw-air” is pretty close to our pronunciation, although our pronunciation of “air” isn’t exactly the excepted norm. I don’t really know how to spell it but with your roots I’m sure you know the way it’s pronounced up here. It’s not necessarily derogatory and often isn’t. As to “challenged”, we’d be inclined to refer to that as “touched” or a “little off” or “not quite right”. Of course, whether or not something is derogatory is often in the attitude of the speaker. Depends on who is saying it and who they are saying it to.
theyeshaveit
June 24th, 2010
4:53 pm
josef, of course “queer” is a versatile word in the lexicon which can be used at once as a noun, an adjective or an adverb. Thus, we could say, “The queer queer walked queerly down the road.”
Scout
June 24th, 2010
4:54 pm
Lord Help Us:
‘I have no agenda here…’
We are talking about an historical event here. Either the Battle of Firebase Ripcord happened as recorded or not. One way or the other. That is not an agenda.
An “agenda” would be my opinion of why the battle was fought, should it have been, etc.
Just thought I would clarify that for you because I “do” have an agenda on most things but I can’t change history.
Doggone/GA
June 24th, 2010
4:55 pm
“I asked the question in all seriousness and the answer seems to be, “yes, suck it up.” Social Darwinism?”
No, not necessarily. I was blunt because I felt it needed to be a blunt answer…but I see nothing contradictory in then giving someone with deeper problems some help in “sucking it up” As has been said here, depression is an individual problem, but suicide is the final way to relieve pain the person can no longer see a way to cope with. And that is the tragedy of it. There ARE ways to cope, but when you get to a point where you can’t see those ways…you DO need help. All too often, the ones who need help the most are the least likely to get it…because they won’t seek it. I’d say this poor man was one of those, so ending his own pain became all-consuming, and he ended it.
Scout
June 24th, 2010
4:57 pm
SPQR(laissez Faire) @ 4:44:
Of course he did – it’s the Chicago way ……….. and that’s why I believe the wire was shut down so prematurely as even the Bush Administration didn’t want to risk the national tumult if Obama got himself on tape for an indictable/impeachable offense.
theyeshaveit
June 24th, 2010
4:57 pm
SPQR, I feel confident that you do not know fact from fiction. Am I right because I “feel confident” about that? No?
Scout
June 24th, 2010
5:01 pm
How looooooowwwww can you go ?
Headline: “New poll shows Obama approval at all-time low”
“A new NBC/Wall Street Journal poll finds Obama’s approval rating to be the lowest it’s been since he took office 18 months ago. According to the poll, only 45 percent approve of the job Obama is doing in the White House, compared with 48 percent who disapprove. And the numbers only get worse from there: Sixty-two percent of respondents believe the country is on the wrong track — the highest number recorded since just before Election Day in 2008 — and just one-third believe things are going to get better, a 7-point drop since a month ago and the lowest such number in the Obama presidency.”
Scout
June 24th, 2010
5:03 pm
josef:
What say ye?
Headline: “10-Year-Old Grand Marshal at Gay Rights Parade Sparks Controversy Across U.S.”
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2010/06/24/year-old-grand-marshal-gay-rights-parade-sparks-controversy/
theyeshaveit
June 24th, 2010
5:07 pm
Scout said, Of course he did – it’s the Chicago way ……….. and that’s why I believe…
Come on. The Chicago way? That has to be an AM radio buzz word like Messiah, socialist, etc. Are you THAT gullible that if it is said on wing nut media it must ex cathedra? Scout, show some discipline and logic in your conclusions; not just naivete and assumptions. You and your slapstick buddy, SPQR have more a proclivity for silly jism rather than syllogisms.
josef nix
June 24th, 2010
5:10 pm
Doggone–
I understand what you are saying, and believe me, I do not mean anything disparaging at the individual level and I know what you mean by what you said, and that, in the position of counseling, you would not be so crass as to say suck it up. I used the phrase on purpose myself because of the charged nature and to get a gut level response from the posters who might consider it. I think the word you and I would use is “cope.”
Hillbilly…
Remember Brett Butler’s “That chile just ain’t right?”
eyes
So much of language has to do with the part of speech and in which context it is being used. There’s an old saying down home among the Cajuns when asked if Coona33 is “bad.” It depends on whether it’s d*mned Coona33 or not, and you don’t have to say d*mned for me to know what you mean…
Southern language lovers…
Remembered this one the other day, “well all’s I can say is he needed killin’.”
Scout
June 24th, 2010
5:12 pm
theyeshaveit : LOL !
Hillbilly Deluxe
June 24th, 2010
5:14 pm
well all’s I can say is he needed killin’.
I’ve known some of those and a couple, it even came to pass.
Supper time is nigh.
@@
June 24th, 2010
5:15 pm
josef:
A lot of people, friends included call me odd, weird and strange. I always look at ‘em and say…
“Get used to it….I’m QUEER!” They hear me and say…
“See what I mean!!! Gaahhhh.” After all that, they say, “But we like you just like you are…wouldn’t want you to be any other way.”
Alrighty din! That’s settled.
theyeshaveit
June 24th, 2010
5:16 pm
It is not quite Friday yet, but all this talk of suicide reminded me of this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4gO7uemm6Yo
theyeshaveit
June 24th, 2010
5:17 pm
Scout, I guess you got my punch line.
josef nix
June 24th, 2010
5:27 pm
A lot depends on why the boy has come to take this stance. Is he doing it in defense of a loved and respected elder who is gay? Has someone in his family been discharged under DADT? Or has he been “coached?”
My very GOP arch conservative brother-in-law would take his little one to the gay pride festivities when she was little because he wanted her to grow up respecting her uncles and “y’all aren’t going to do it…” At age 10 she was aware of the social discrimination and of the wide range of people who were gay…our own kids were brought up without any “discussion” or “lecturing” on the matter, we simply “were…” Of the three, only one of them, the boy in the military, has found it necessary to make public stances on our behalf and I think you can see why. The younger boy’s response to such is now as it was in his childhood, “and…?” The girl will take a strong stance when someone else brings up the subject, but doesn’t feel the need to bang a drum. She did, though, beat the sh*t out of a neighbor kid when she was about 10 who had something unkind and nasty to say about us. How much of that was “political” and how much of it was the good old Southern value of “defending your own” was not at question. It was entirely the latter!
But like I said, I am more interested in why this boy has come to this stance. My initial reaction is that I really don’t think this is a particularly good idea simply from the PR value and his age. As we say down in Dixie, “I don’t care. It just don’t look right.”
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
June 24th, 2010
5:30 pm
Hey hole, you think is impeachable?
Obama knew of Blagojevich plot
Buh bye obozo!
Hello President BiteMe, hahahahaha, aahhh, yes.
josef nix
June 24th, 2010
5:30 pm
eyes
“silly jism rather than syllogisms”
I don’t care who you are, thass funny!
Doggone/GA
June 24th, 2010
5:34 pm
“I think the word you and I would use is “cope.””
Yes, I would use that word. I think for some people depression is a physical problem with their brain chemistry, for others it’s emotional, for others – one leads to the other, so it’s both. But I think a lot of people get started down the path to the kind of depression because they aren’t taught early on to deal with their emotional reactions. The “Pollyanna” syndrome, if you will…if I don’t think about bad things, they won’t happen. But if you don’t think about them, you are then unprepared to cope with them.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
June 24th, 2010
5:38 pm
WSJNBCNEWS: Confidence in Obama Waning…
That’s alright, he’s headed back to whatever third world hovel he came from, just sayin…
Glenn Beck
June 24th, 2010
5:39 pm
He was a producer and did not want to become one of the parasites.
Del
June 24th, 2010
5:46 pm
Man this global warming has this blog all fired up. Why even old Al Gore got all hot and bothered in a hotel room. He blamed it on global warming and that Tipper just didn’t understand.
Del
June 24th, 2010
5:52 pm
Well back out into the heat. y’all stay cool.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
June 24th, 2010
5:52 pm
That the American military thinks the Obama team is not up to the job of defeating Al Qaeda and winning a war which it is even terrified of calling by name. That those on the front line in a life-and-death struggle with a serious enemy think the President a wimp, the Vice President a blowhard, the national security adviser a “clown,” Ambassador Richard Holbrooke a man consumed by the need for relevance, and that the French act like…well…the French.
That’s what I’m saying…
Our little team of surrender monkeys.
josef nix
June 24th, 2010
6:01 pm
doggone
Granddaddy’s lesson was “hope for the best and be prepared for the worst.” I have found it sound advice in my own life’s journey…
TaxPayer
June 24th, 2010
6:20 pm
Whiner has a team of surrender monkeys. Whatever floats his ducky.
Southern Comfort
June 24th, 2010
6:43 pm
Tax
Maybe he’s been drinking this….
http://www.dogfish.com/brews-spirits/the-brews/brewpub-exclusives/surrender-monkey.htm
theyeshaveit
June 24th, 2010
8:17 pm
Normal said Josef, you said, “For the record, my personal opinion is that suicide is one of the most selfish acts the human being is capable of.”
Again I disagree. I believe that suicide is the most unselfish act a person can do. I’ll explain at St. Eslewhere, if you’re interested, but bottom line, it’s my body, my life.
Normal, I agree with Josef on the selfishness of suicide. I have, in fact, offline had discussions with people on this subject before and I have repeatedly expressed this idea.
If you think about it, the fact that we even call it “suicide” is telling in that “sui” is the Latinate prefix meaning self and te root “cide”, of course, means kill. But, yes, this is superficial. I believe that suicide is a selfish act, because, in most circumstances, the perpetrator has committed the act for his own self, while it is likely that others will be left behind who will suffer for it. I am not saying that Mr. Kruse did not consider the repercussions, but, in the end, he determined to ignore those repercussions in favor of his own need to escape. Now, I also agree with Josef that not all suicides are caused or motivated by the same circumstances. And suicide is also viewed differently in different cultures. We praise the heroics of our military, for example, when they go on what might be characterized as a “suicide mission” done for the sake of saving others( note not for selfish reasons). In World War II Japan, we could not fathom why the Japanese would commit “hara kiri” in stead of trying to save themselves. “Hara Kiri” is by no means a selfish act.
So, while I say that suicide is generally a selfish act, the motivation and the circumstances create exceptions to the rule.
theyeshaveit
June 24th, 2010
8:23 pm
SPQR, gives you a hate on, doesn’t it.
SPQR(laissez Faire)
June 24th, 2010
8:34 pm
I get my hate on within 10 minutes of leaving the house everyday. Everyday interactions with people provide more than ample reason to be misanthropic. Everyone in any sort of customer service job in this town is an abject moron, and at that, only half can speak english..i can make out the broken spanglish, but the ebonics is a lost cause..so I just wish them to the cornfield and smirk knowing somewhere down the line, their cuzin punkin will probably accidently shoot them with hiz big ol gun, just like boo got shot.