‘Let’s get fiscal, fiscal — let me hear your lobby talk’

Scrap Federal Income Tax and implement the fair tax. And just to keep it fair, how about a sliding scale, where single purchases over a tcertain threshhold (10K? 50K? 100K?) are taxed at a higher rate. That would allow low end items to be taxed at a lower rate, representing a lower % of income for low wage earners, who are extremely unlikely to make those single item large purchases. This would work nicely.

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Why does it go up like a rocket whenever Republicans are in office??

fiscally-conservative, born-again, right-thinking, fair and balanced news: just words

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The problem w/ the fair tax is it would put H&R Block and other accountants out of business/work.

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FairTax—SQUIRREL!

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The problem with the Fair Tax is that it ISN’T fair…..but another tax shift towards the middle class while granting the wealthy MORE tax breaks!! The tax systems needs to be more progressive than it is currently! In the Eisenhower Administration, the tax rate for the wealthy was 90%….and no one complained……..

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the mob back home LOL

which means he will be committee chairman if the Republicans get control of the Senate. So we have no worries there.

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But…but…but… if you cut taxes, then people spend more and that means a larger economy…. so ideally, lets cut taxes to zero and magically the economy expands and we have more tax revenue….because… oh wait….

Seriously, its going to be a long hard battle… and pay as you go is a nice theory but sometimes you have to spend more to save…just like insulating a house costs more upfront but you save more over time…. Some sacred cows have to be cut and we have to get out of these wars and cut military spending (as well as use dollars smarter). Fees for some areas have to be raised (oh lets start with oil leasing fees and inspection fees). Simplify the tax code (fair tax is a pipe dream, it will never happen) and increase collections.

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There is a third option.

Declare bankruptcy, enemize Washington of the banksters, frauds, and corruptocrats, and start over.

Have Rand Paul and Judge Napolitano lead the way.

This might happen whether we choose it or not.

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whoa, jcb, you’re back? everything ok?

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Well, Bookman is just plain wrong. Me and my buddy Jim Earl and my other buddy Joe Bill come up with a plan that will get us back to a balanced budget and save us all a ton of money. Here it is:

1. Cut out all the welfare programs. This includes Medicaid, Medicare, Social Security, Aid to Dependent Families, and everything else that ain’t for supporting our troops or building good roads. Let the bums and the old geezers fend for theirselfs. We ain’t their Sugar Daddy.

2. Keep the defense budget like it is, maybe increase it a little. We got to have wars or people like me won’t be Free to give everybody our opinion.

3. Cut taxes to zero. Everybody knows if you cut taxes the guvmint takes in alot more money. So far we’ve just been nibbling around the edges. But if you cut out all taxes the guvmint income will raise 100%. Businesses will use the extra money they don’t spend for taxes to hire more people. Guvmint will have so much money they’ll be hiring more people too. Pretty soon they’ll be fighting over us. Wages will go sky-high and we’ll all be able to shop at WalMart as much as we like. There won’t be no unemployment and we’ll be able to chase the Red Chinese down and pay them without mercy. The national debt will be gone. Heck, we’ll have so much money we might could even throw in a train or two for the libruls.

It’s simple and it’ll work. No charge for the advise. Have a good day everybody.

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Sorry, veering off topic. Yes, obviously we need to address our long-delayed tax hikes and we need to address spending. We took baby steps toward the latter with HCR but we’re going to have to stop protecting NATO countries from a land invasion by the Soviet Union, me thinks, as well.

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Jay, get real. Does any Republican honest enough to say that taxes will need to be raised as PART of an OVERALL solution to reduce our national debt…have ANY chance to be elected??????

It is absolutely reasonable and beyond debate in terms of being practical, but, face it, that candidate could never be elected on a GOP ticket.

Thus, the ‘fiscally conservative’ GOP voter will continue to get exactly what they got with Reagan/Bush and Bush/Cheney. In reality, they only get concerned about deficits when a Dem is in the oval office…

One would think that they would learn, but…oh well…

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Ahh… using a chart from one of my favorite fact sites I see. Pretty obvious that Reagan and both Bush administrations had no regard for the National Debt. Even Carter reduced it during his term. Clinton wiped it out (remember that National Debt Clock in NYC near Madison Sq. Garden anyone? It was shut off by the end of Clinton’s term. They fired it back up not too long into baby Bush’s first term. As far as seeing it rise now during Obama’s term… there’s no choice… just like WWII we need massive spending to dig us out of the “almost” depression the last administration left us in. The Bush tax cuts (which created ZERO jobs by the end of his administration and actually LOST jobs) on top of two wars and massive spending sunk the ship. You can CLEARLY see that every administration starting with Truman contributed to paying down that massive debt until Reagan/Bush41. The chart does NOT lie… check out zfacts and look at some of the other statistics that will show you how the “GREAT ONE” and heor of the Talibangelical Right: Ronnie Reagan started the sinking of our economy. Another nice “fact” that you can find is that the MOST jobs created by any president in our history was Clinton…more then 12 years of Reagan/Bush… Reagan Bush also ADDED more to the poverty level (but Baby Bush wins the prize on that one)…. Reagan/Bush also had inflation rise under their reign….Need the FACTS? Okay:
http://clinton5.nara.gov/WH/Accomplishments/eightyears-03.html

FTA:

“Most New Jobs Ever Created Under a Single Administration: The economy has created more than 22.5 million jobs in less than eight years—the most jobs ever created under a single administration, and more than were created in the previous 12 years. Of the total new jobs, 20.7 million, or 92 percent, are in the private sector.

Unemployment at Its Lowest Level in More than 30 Years: Overall unemployment has dropped to the lowest level in more than 30 years, down from 6.9 percent in 1993 to just 4.0 percent in November 2000. The unemployment rate has been below 5 percent for 40 consecutive months.

Lowest Inflation since the 1960s: Inflation is at the lowest rate since the Kennedy Administration, averaging 2.5 percent, and it is down from 4.7 percent during the previous administration.

7 Million Fewer Americans Living in Poverty: The poverty rate has declined from 15.1 percent in 1993 to 11.8 percent last year, the largest six-year drop in poverty in nearly 30 years. ”

GOT FACTS? Post them… you can post all the blame you want about the dems…yet they have been WAY better for our economy for the past 30 years. The “proof” lies in the FACTS and STATISTICS. So before you blow your stack….make sure you back up what you are about to rant about.

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hey jewcowboy! glad to see you back safe and sound!!!

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Jay said: “But the good news is, the relatively few Democrats who take that position do not lead the party. President Obama, Senator Reid and Speaker Pelosi, among others, recognize that any solution will have to require both tax increases and spending cuts. When Obama’s bipartisan commission on the budget makes its report to Congress, it is expected to include both approaches.”

Please show your work, Jay! When the heck has Nancy Pelosi or Harry Reid EVER proposed scaling back any of our bloated entitlement spending?

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Usink….now stay away from her swimming “hole”… let’s tax higher fences.

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An awesome place to clear your head and put things in perspective.

on my short list, some day…

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keep up … all I can say – a swimming pool in Alaska … I hope it doubles as a hockey rink for the remaining 10 months of the year …

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md – “congress played a big part”

you realize that, during the Reagan years, Congress passed SMALLER budgets than he requested, don’t you …

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Hi USinUK! Thanks.

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“We took baby steps toward the latter with HCR but we’re going to have to stop protecting NATO countries from a land invasion by the Soviet Union, me thinks, as well.”

NATO?? You mean USUKTO – right??

Needs to be abolished all together.

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I love how Jay commends the Dems on their approach to pay for their out of control spending. That’s like your neighbor setting your house on fire and then offering you a good deal on reparing it. Priceless Jay.

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Fair Tax, Flat Tax, whatever. Cut spending, raise taxes only if necessary. But get rid of the income tax and the IRS.

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Looking at this chart it looks like things blew up in 1980, when I was 7 years old. I think all tax increases should be on those who were 25 and up in 1980. You started this fire…not pay for the hose to put it out.

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Pennsylvanian May 28th, 2010
10:48 am

Here’s where the shift occurs: The Fair Tax tax bracket would be reduced on the upper income brackets, thereby reducing their tax burden, causing a shift downward towards middle incomes. Those whose tax capabilities balance to zero…and pay no taxes….also force a tax shift upward to the middle class!! The middle class would be socked with a tax increase that could be as high as 30%….and the wealthy get a tax CUT as high as 65%.

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“Fair Tax, everyone gets a prebate to offset taxes on necessities. Poor people and middle class people who continue to buy new cars, boats, houses, etc. are volunteering to pay tax”

even better! so all food is going to be tax-free? and all clothes are going to be tax-free? and all utilities are going to be tax-free?

and we’re going to fund the government on people who buy boats and houses and cars …

oh, yeah … that’s gonna work …

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Only cutting spending to deal with the debt is like only cutting consumption to deal with the energy crisis.

Oh yeah, the latter is exactly what many on the Left would have us do. . . . guess infantile beliefs are not the strict purview of the Right.

I think before we raise taxes and cut spending, we have to make sure the recovery is on firm ground. Another thing we need to look at, and Bernanke is rejecting this, is the money supply. It is contracting at 1929-1933 rates. Remember, Milton Friedman won his Nobel with his works showing how the Great Depression was largely a money-supply problem.

Finally, the graphic you include in this story illustrates a Great Lie in American politics: That the Dems are the spenders and the GOP holds tight to the purse-strings.

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The flaw of the FairTax, is and always will be in the politics. It will never pass as written and by the time the lobbyists get through with it, it will in no way resemble the bill that Boortz has brainwashed people into believing.

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“yeah. that worked REALLY well in 1995.”

I’m guessing 1995 will seem like a cakewalk once the poo really hits the fan. I have no clue as to what the solution will be, but I certainly see the problem – and it ain’t pretty.

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CJ – “I think you just need to log off today and take a nap. You seem to be forgetting that the Fair Tax replaces all other taxes, it does not add on to existing taxes. Therefore, no additional burden will be realized. Now go take a nap dude!”

well, I never say no to a nap … but I still have a couple more hours before I head home …

if you honestly believe that the “fair tax” (which isn’t) will replace all other taxes, then go with god and good luck to you.

however, the fact of the matter is, consumer spending is too volatile for government to rely on for income, so even if they DID implement a VAT, it would be an additional tax, it would never be a stand-alone …

… now, if you want to talk about FLAT taxes, I’m right there with ya – it’s an idea whose time has come …

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In my post, I didn’t want to get into who caused this problem, because my intent was to focus on how to resolve it.

There you go again, Jay, assuming the righties here actually read beyond your headline and pretty pictures.

Pretty sure most of ‘em don’t bother.

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USinUK-

You keep using referring to a VAT…I’m talking about the Fair Tax…which most certainly is not a VAT. Sounds like we’re on the same page with a Flat tax…

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CJ – simply put, “fair tax” is a national sales tax – which is a VAT

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Pennsylvanian May 28th, 2010
10:58 am

“Under Fair Tax, everyone gets a prebate to offset taxes on necessities.”

The problems are that the prebate will not allow anyone to recover the TAXES paid on necessities (utilities, food, prescriptions, gasoline, et. al.)….and for the middle class to be properly afffected with the prebate, the prebate would need to be equivalent to the first 50K for single, 100K for married……(figures can be adjusted) for the proper taxation scenario to take effect. Only then, will the taxation curve shift progressively upward so that the middle class isn’t as affected as it would be under the current Fair Tax proposals!!

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“But those who try to blame it exclusively or even largely on the left have no factual basis for that effort, as the chart above documents quite well.” ~ Jay

I blame it on everyone 55 years old and older. You created this mess and are riding off into your golden sunset, leaving it for Gen X and younger to deal with.

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Me, I’m thinking I might cash in my chips, move to Mexico. They like illegal immigrants in Mexico, don’t they?

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CJ – I understand that it’s not meant to ADD to taxes … but I’m telling you that, as sure as I’m sitting here, it will. there is no way you can run the country on a sales tax

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“md – 11:08 – the US is nowhere NEAR the situation Greece was in – at the very least, the US has VASTLY better revenue collection than Greece does …”

cbo, which is usually low in their estimates, says 1 trillion for the next 10 years – with a sluggish economy, how long do you think it is going to take to get there??

Probably quicker than you think. And remember, cbo’s #’s are based on a growing economy – heaven forbid it goes the other way.

We are playing the lottery with the economy, hoping we all win the jackpot. Nobody wants to even think about everything going the other way, but guess what – it’s 50/50 the way I see it.

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C’mon Jay May 28th, 2010
11:15 am

You are forgetting sales taxes, gas taxes, excise taxes, state taxes, estate taxes, ad valorem taxes,…..the Fair Tax will be in addition to these!!

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C’mon Jay – I don’t believe USinUK or HDB actually read the Fair Tax bill. They don’t want to consider anything that would diminish the ability of politicians and bureaucrats to manipulate the economy with the IRS code.

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HDB – You just proved my point. Read the bill.

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Instead of a millionair tax, I vote to increase the tax rate of all editorial writers of all US newspapers to 70 percent, I am sure we will not see any of them giving up their jobs or leave their profession because of a tax increase.

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HDB – You are forgetting sales taxes, gas taxes, excise taxes, state taxes, estate taxes, ad valorem taxes,…..the Fair Tax will be in addition to these!!

The Fair Tax is a federal issue, so it replace the current sales tax. Gas taxes are not going away and the Fair Tax need not address that. Ad Valorem is a ’state’ tax, so cross those out too. It gets tiring trying to educate nay-sayers on here….go read the bill…

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The only way to get out is to do both. I think most people with any common sense would agree.

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Canada has what for a military. They know we will protect them. Your argument is flawed.

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USinUK – I stand corrected. I’m ok with a flat tax so long as they don’t get it all wadded up with bizarre exceptions thrown in by every lobbying group.

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OFF TOPIC, but….

FROM AJC “WH used Clinton to get Sestak out of Pa. race”

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“Fair Tax” LOL…No such thing.

Take the devil ya know vs the devil ya dont.

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Jay – is it DOA because they know that the media (you) would spin it as a VAT?? and therefore the Repubs would continue to be the evil villians who only favor the rich. That’s really what you are saying, right?

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I always thought fair tax was to tax the upper 50% of earners. It must be. That is what we are doing. Am I wrong?

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USinUK

I heard something about some little get-together in South Africa—not gonna be the global sensation it’s hyped to be.

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CJ – “Jay – is it DOA because they know that the media (you) would spin it as a VAT?? ”

now, that’s funny … the GOP is afraid to implement something because of the media …

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“Indeed, there has been no progress at all for the
youngest generation. As a group, they have on average
12 percent less income than their fathers’ generation
at the same age.14 This suggests the up-escalator that
has historically ensured that each generation would do
better than the last may not be working very well.”

http://www.economicmobility.org/assets/pdfs/EMP%20American%20Dream%20Report.pdf

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Pennsylvanian May 28th, 2010
11:20 am

Problem is…I HAVE…and I printed a copy to find the flaws in the proposal!! What the Fair Tax does is remove progressivity…and shifts the tax burden DOWNWARD……..

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Kam – 11:35 – I dunno … I’d keep an eye on this newfangled “futboll” thing … I think it could become rather popular …

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I agree with Jay here… the Fair Tax is dead on arrival. In fact… it’s never even arrived. Feel free to keep wasting your time talking about it… Anyone working that bill right now? When does it come up for a vote?

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“I read the FairTax bill, and the book, and it’s all a bunch of hooey.”

Well, I guess that settles THAT argument! Kinda like when Jay proclaims that the issue of global warming is settled as well.

Pardon me if I don’t take the proclamations of a liberal hack opinion columnist when making my decisions regarding important issues.

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“Remember…the Right gernally has to fight two opponents on most issues…the Left and the media. ”

Plus they have to pull their head’s out of their own @sses, which we all know can be a feat.

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HDB – so seem overly concerned about the lower class of folks…the governemtn leaches. Are you one of them? Instead of spending you time figuring out how to get you next buck from the governement…why don’t you try to better yourself and your education?

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And back on topic . . .

Cut sending FIRST, so I know you’re serious about reducing the size and scope of government, THEN I’ll support tax increases, which must be increased to pay down the deficits that Congress and past administrations are responsible for.

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Jewcowboy –

Good one, and I’m serious! But facts are facts buddy.

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I dunno, Dave … I think you may be on to something by cutting sending

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Kamchak – sorry for the typo…it seems that I’ve now lost all credibility with you….what a shame..

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Really laughable to say Obama, Reid and Polosi are for spending cuts. Tax increases are probably going to be a reality and should include ALL income levels. Spending cuts, however, should be implemented first.

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USinUK – you are really starting to show your commited leftists colors!

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“Income Disparity”. More like these younger generations with their “Instant Gratification” attitudes. New car, boat, PS3, Xbox, mortgaged to the hilt by 28 years old. Too bad, Pay your bills.

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2012 – Budget – 25% surcharge on everyone 57 years old. And large cuts to Social Security and Medicare. No whining…but we paid for it all these years…because obviously you haven’t.

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Is the fair tax , flat tax or whatever you want to call it, constitutional? Does it violate the 16th admendment?

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“USinUK – you are really starting to show your commited leftists colors!”

and words like “leftist” show your lack of critical thinking skills …

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Outhouse GoKart,

“More like these younger generations with their “Instant Gratification” attitudes.”

I wonder where they learned that?

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BMDPD got it right. All these youngsters take no responsbilty for thier stupid mistakes and self-imposed troubles. Let em sink….

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BMDPD,

“I think this is another contributing factor the the ‘gap’.”

Perhaps if the playing field were level…however…

“Going back to 1820,
per capita gross domestic product in the United States
has grown an average of 52 percent for each generation.
But since 1973, overall median family income has grown
only 0.6 percent per year, a rate that produces a 17 percent
increase in the average family’s income for each
generation. Thus, unless the rate of economic growth increases,
the next generation will experience an improvement
in its standard of living that is only one-third as
large as the historical average for earlier generations.”

http://www.economicmobility.org/assets/pdfs/EMP%20American%20Dream%20Report.pdf

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HDB, seriously. Sure some of the upper 2M have come from old money and privilige, but many don’t. A lot of these people worked very hard to get where they are. I don’t make that king of money, but I understand how those that do would consider the tax system as punitive.

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kind vice king, sorry.

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jewcowboy, I don’t have a link, but our young sub 30 crowd has more ’stuff’ than their parents did at that age and they used credit to get it.

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Outhouse GoKart,

“Does it really matter where they learned it?”

Only if you seek to remedy the problem. To fix a problem you must know of the origin.

The “Greats” and “Boomers” started a cycle of fiscal irresponsibility that they now lay at the feet of the X’s and Y’s. I would suggest looking there.

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jewcowboy, it is funny. But you are talking kind of like a Tea Party person. Most tea party people surveyed said they don’t mind paying taxes. They are more concerned of how the government is spending money hand over foot. Sure it happened when Obama took office, but many (due to their religion or political views) believe he is spending this money on bad programs.

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BMDPD,

“I don’t have a link, but our young sub 30 crowd has more ’stuff’ than their parents did at that age and they used credit to get it.”

$13T worth?

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HDB – No exemptions? Repeals 16th amendment, replaces federal income tax, SS & Medicare tax, estate taxes, all the same taxes as proposed under Fair Tax? Abolishes the IRS? Supermajority required to raise rates? I’d vote for that.

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Like Jay said….Democrats and Republicans agree that we have to address the nation’s long-term fiscal stability. Beyond that point, though, there’s little common ground.

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JF McNamara,

“The Boomers should be called “The Most Selfish Generation”.”

I am in total agreement. Very salient post. It is interesting, though, that they still refuse to take responsibility…and instead blame younger generations for their spending habits.

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BMDPD May 28th, 2010
11:55 am
Three things wrong with your analysis, my friend:

1) 39% was the tax rate under the Clinton Administration…and the economy soared to near-full employment…and created a SURPLUS!!!

2) Under Eisenhower, the marginal tax rate on the wealthy was 90%; Kennedy cut that rate in HALF….and still no one complained as loudly as they are now….and the rate is LESS!!

3) Name me an economic period in this nation’s history PRIOR to 2003 that the financing of the nation’s wartime effort did NOT include a tax INCREASE!!!

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all the same taxes as proposed under Fair Tax? Which would be at what rate? 23% 30% ?40%?

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I guess JC. Can only speak from personal experience and have had to address my financial issues myself no matter the cause. The cause which was my issue and no one elses.

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Outhouse, there is very little personal accountablity anymore. It is much easier to blame someone else.

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md,

“Sounds like scapegoating, unless the world is full of sheep.

We are all individuals, and control our own actions – we choose everything we do.”

How about “passing the buck”? The Boomer ran up a $13T tab, and now expect Xers and Yers to pay for it. What about that personal responsibility thing?

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Pennsylvanian May 28th, 2010
12:03 pm

The Fair Tax WON’T work….but a progressive flat tax would!! Exemptions would include mortgage/taxes on PRIMARY residence only, educaton, medical, and credit card interest. Savings/retirements/401K/pensions would NOT be taxed!! Note my 11:52 for the rates….

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Outhouse GoKart,

“The Boomers/Hippies, the most selfish generation?”

They sold out their Revolution for a pair of Nike’s….

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md,

“And the entire tab was spent on the 55+ crowd??”

Yeah, for the most part it was.

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USinUK,

Have a great weekend!

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Well, I’m all for a tax system that goes easy on me and heavier on everybody else. Somebody’s got to pay this debt and it might as well be you.

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“Yeah, for the most part it was.”

Got a link??

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HDB

May 28th, 2010
12:07 pm
BMDPD May 28th, 2010
11:55 am

3) Name me an economic period in this nation’s history PRIOR to 2003 that the financing of the nation’s wartime effort did NOT include a tax INCREASE!!!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Evaluate the receipts and outlays during the Vietnam War. Also, a temporary endeveor like a minor war or recession is not really a reason to raise taxes.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/Historicals/

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Well, I’m all for a tax system that goes easy on me and heavier on everybody else. Somebody’s got to pay this debt and it might as well be you.

Again, I insist: That Redneck has no Pulitzers is a grave injustice that needs to be addressed.

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When the GOP controlled Congress under the leadership of men such as Tom “the Hammer” DeLay, the Republicans were so intimidated by the minority Democrats that they didn’t even dare schedule a subcommittee meeting out of fear the Dems would criticize them.

You left out the mighty hack liberal columnists. Gotta factor them in.

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larry, the wealthy will get no more Social Security than the poor. While that is true , the wealthy pay less of the tax as a percent of their income than the poor and middle class do. Maybe one of the ways to solve the S.S , Medicare , Medicaid problem is to make it more of a needs based system.

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FairTax™ supporters are a FairlyWeird™ batch. I suppose they just enjoy being led around by their nose rings.

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A little Glenfiddich 12 on the the rocks…? Why yes!!

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Very clever play on words, Jay! (Even though that song was absolutely forgettable.)

Man, that chart sure is damning for those still clinging to the silly notion of post-Eisenhower Republicanism as fiscally responsible.

So if we are in a crisis, similar to the contrived WAR ON TERROR!!!, perhaps we need to consider more BushCorp ‘fixes”. Similar to his “temporarily” suspending habeus corpus, getting the USA on the list of nations that torture and using American corporations to spy on citizens. (for starters)

All so sadly “necessary”.

In that irrational vein and given the gravity of this situation we *must* “temporarily” remove the ban on taxing churches and implement a “temporary” emergency, surcharge corporate tax rate of say, 25%.

There, problem solved…

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HDB, really, no complaints ? Why did they need the IRS ?

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Oh and Jay – yes, that earworm you created was just plain mean and unnecessary. Shame on you. I just got back from a funeral and instead of having “By and By Lord” in my head, now it’s Olivia Newton John. Wait a minute, the good song is back. Whew.

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Will the cycle be unbroken?
By and By Lord By and By…..

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If the fair tax would be revenue neutral and everyone would pay roughly the same as they do now…why have it? If the answer is to reduce costs for compliance with the tax code…then eliminate most deductions and keep the same structure we have now and that would accomplish that goal. So…maybe there might be some shifting of the tax burden? I propose we look at what national figures are in favor of the Fair Tax and then look to see if they tend to favor other tax policies that shift the tax burden in one direction or another. We might be able to guess at that point. Wonder which way it is going to go?

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“OFF TOPIC # 1″

Miscellaneous things heard today …………..

1) “Looks like Clinton and Obama both got B.J.’s in the Oval Office (Bribe Job for Obama)” ………

2) 18USC211: “Whoever solicits or receives, either as a political contribution, or for personal emolument, any money or thing of value, in consideration of the promise of support or use of influence in obtaining for any person any appointive office or place under the United States, shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than one year, or both.”

Can we say “Senategate” ?

3) “Daddy, did you plug the hole?”

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We suffer under 6000 pages (or so I’ve read) of tax code.

Virtually all of it contrived and convoluted to protect the guilty. And to punish human labor and the consumption of necessities.

It is simply pernicious and perverse and anti-working class.

Codified welfare for the wealthy.

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@@, who are you to say you heard hooey? Don’t tell me that you tuned in on the presentation with an objective mind? Hooey to you.

Just like Fox News erasing the applause from Obama’s commencement address at West Point – you will hear what you want to hear.

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Sort of the crux of Jay’s piece, and it hasn’t been addressed:

conservative pressure groups are pushing Hatch to promise that when the budget commission reports, he will rule out any consideration of tax hikes whatsoever.

Seriously, what are we to do if that’s true?

I suppose one solution would be for the Senate, when it reconvenes in Jan. 2011, to change its rules to eliminate the filibuster altogether. Of course that’d require a spine, and self-sacrifice…

ok, any other ideas?

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Bosch, outta my head, please.

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sfd, mine too! Song is catchy isn’t it?

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sfd,

What are you talking about – you get out of mine! If I was mean, I’d've yelled “jinx” – but I’ve been singing cool hymns for the past few hours so I’m not mean right now.

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GREAT NEWS!!!

Tea Party could cost GOP nine Senate races this fall
Uprisings by the GOP base could produce weak Republican candidates in some of this year’s biggest races
http://www.salon.com/news/politics/2010_elections/index.html?story=/news/feature/2010/05/28/tea_party_senate_republicans

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The problem with raising taxes? Traditionally spending has gone up about $1.25 for every $1.00 in new taxes.

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Finn, wishful thinking. Have you ever been to Kentucky?

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Of course the Tea Party is weakening their own party from within. You basically have republicans attacking republicans. They seek to replace current republicans with extreme right fringe republicans. The problem they don’t see is that not all of the republican base will come out and vote for someone to the extreme right… they’re also not taking into granted that those undecided middle of the road voters are not going to vote for an extreme right fanatic either when it comes November. So basically…they’re blowing up their own party from within. Good luck with that!

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Nice column Jay. Brutal honesty is what we need in this country but, I am afraid, we will not get. People do not believe facts, they believe 10 second sound bites.

OK all you guys who claim to be “conservative”, what do you say to refute Bookman’s basic point? Nothing! On this Bookman is 100% correct. “Facts are stubborn things.” if I may quote Mr. Adams.

Here are the facts. From Jan 1961 (Kennedy sworn in) the national debt increased from $650. billion to $997 billion. That is an increase of $347 billion in 20 years; an average of $17 billion a year. Then in Jan 1981 (Reagan sworn in) we decided to cut taxes and allow spending to increase. And that is what we have done the 30 years since 1981. Now the national debt is $12.8 billion, an increase of $11.8 trillion over 30 years; an average of $393 billion a year. All because we cut taxes and increased spending at the same exact moments.

And do not blame Reagan and leave all others innocent. He had plenty of help. The Republicans have controlled the White House 20 of the last 30 years; every budget passed by Congress has been signed into law by a President. Democrats have controlled the House 18 of the 30 years. Republicans have controlled the Senate 16 of the 30 years.
There are no “innocents” here.

So who do you blame voters?

Or will you continue to bury your head in the sand has you have done for the past 30 years?

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Saul. one of the many, many problems with the tea party is that they are an anarcho-collectivist amalgam of misfits and rabid government haters.

Seriously, they are so loosey goosey and undefined that I don’t think even they know what they are after.

But whatever it is that they can’t delineate, it is likely to be just a tweaking of the repudiated neo-conservatism that got American into this horrific mess in the first place…

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theyeshaveit & Saul Good:

We’ll see ……… these are always hard cases to prove. It may or may not grow legs ……… however, you know what happens once a special prosecutor gets going …….

Also, I think you will find case law stating a “thing of value” can be non-monetary. I’ll leave that to the experts.

BTW: “Daddy, did you plug the hole?”

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BTW: “Daddy, did you plug the hole?”

Attaching sexual innuendo to something a real-life nine-year-old is quoted by her father as saying?

Just when I think you can’t sink any lower…

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The Fair Tax is just another one of those shiny objects the wingnuts get fixated on.

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Scout, with your psuedo “causes” (3 impeachable offenses, the no handshake for Obama at West Point myth, the Sestak/Clinton non news) you remind me of an old dog I had. This Irish Setter was a nice dog, but it was quite a bit on the neurotic side. One day, I saw it stomping on the moving shadow of a butterfly that was incessantly hovering in the guava tree above the dog. That dog kept lifting up it paw to sneak a look the “butterfly” hoping that his pouncing on it had finally sent it to butterfly heaven. of course, the real butterfly was having a good old time up the tree, and the dog only managed to dig itself a big whole in the ground.

Scout, you are chasing phantoms like Don Quixote and digging yourself a hole in the ground.

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A little early, but on topic.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzLry3ABpV0

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BTW…. can anyone please compose a list of rightwing/conservative authors who wrote any books from 2001-2008 that spoke about “the current out of control spending and rising deficit”??? Can anyone name even one? I know Newt put out a book or two… did he have any chapters on the then current administrations spending spree and the rising deficit?

Truly interested if anyone can produce a list like that.

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md,

“I’ll ask again – and what % of the 13T was spent just on the 55+ crowd.”

Sorry, I don’t have that information. But, then again, I don’t know too many 10 year olds who are responsible for fiscal policy either.

“Got a link??”

Again, I don’t have one, but looking at the crumbling infrastructure xers and yers are getting to inherit, it looks like it might have gone into the pockets of the boomers, rather than into anything lasting.

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Just when I think you can’t sink any lower…

Le petit caporal is a fear monger—there is no limit on how low he will go to infect others with his fear.

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“…and you continue to”, I meant to say.

Not sure why I bother, though. If you want to continue making a horse’s ass of yourself, Scout, go for it.

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Bosch,

“Carnivore obviously doesn’t realize how many old people there are and how grumpy they get and how they’d charge the Capitol with pitchforks – the ones that can still walk and all — and the ones that can’t would light their Depends on fire and fling them via catapult into the Dome.”

What vivid imagery! I suppose it would be a gauge of how angry they are, “depending” on whether those Depends were empty or not

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jewcowboy, how are you?

Haven’t seen much of you here lately, and thought I read something about Mr. jewcowboy.

None of my bees wax to be sure, just thought I’d check in wiff ya, bruvah…

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Yeah, me too Reb, but I try not to let it bring me down…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mU9_Q7PJuNQ&feature=related

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“YOU MAY BE A TALIBAN IF…”
1.. You refine heroin for a living, but you have a moral objection to liquor.

2. You own a $3,000 machine gun and $5,000 rocket launcher, but you can’t afford shoes.

3. You have more wives than teeth.

4. You wipe your butt with your bare hand, but consider bacon “unclean.”

5. You think vests come in two styles: bullet-proof and suicide.

6. You can’t think of anyone you haven’t declared Jihad against.

7. You consider television dangerous, but routinely carry explosives in your clothing.

8. You were amazed to discover that cell phones have uses other than setting off roadside bombs.

9. You have nothing against women and think every man should own at least four.

10. You’ve always had a crush on your neighbor’s goat.

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AmVet, thanks for the link. I have always liked Neil Young well enough to ignore his political messages in favor of the overall song.

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YOU MAY BE A PLAGIARIZER IF:

1) You post material from someone else without giving credit.

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theyeshaveit,

Yep…it was on Biwa Lake. Absolutely stunning. The area actually reminded me of the Swiss Alps. Kyoto is so much more beautiful than Kobe.

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JohnnyReb,

“lay off the old folks and Depends. I’m not there yet, but the years are flying by!”

We are all just one REALLY funny joke away from them.

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Reb, glad you liked it.

When JB first started the Friday night “singalongs” here, I ragged a little bit (Can you imagine that???) on some of my right wing cousins about listening to rock and roll. I never understood how they could love it while these artists were flaming their heroes and much of what they stood for.

Then the awesome Hillbilly Deluxe at some later point weighed in and said that for him music was too great to use for political purposes (I’m paraphrasing). And I responded that I very much respected that opinion, but for me, being a wild child of the 60s and 70s, I was very much into the political aspects of the music.

We agreed that it’s only rock and roll and there ain’t no rules.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b6yh_joWP20

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AmVet,

“We agreed that it’s only rock and roll and there ain’t no rules.”

A tribute to Charlie Crist Republicans who claim to be pro-business, but don’t seem to respect intellectual property:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AWtCittJyr0

http://www.naplesnews.com/news/2010/may/27/david-byrne/

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Good piece, Mr. Bookman!

That the GOP is indeed putting “Party First” does not absolve the Democrats either. The tedious work required to address and reduce our budgetary issues absolutely mandates cooperation between the two parties to achieve common goals. Too bad they’re all too busy trying to get reelected to put in the hours, diplomacy, and brainpower to get it done.

One of my favorite points of the ‘08 campaign was about cutting waste. McCain: “Use an AXE!” Obama: “Use a scalpel!” If our national finances are a body, then I’m thinking a carefully-wielded scalpel (and perhaps a liposuction wand) will result in a better recovery than hacking off a necessary limb with no anesthetic. (Call me a wuss if you will, but only after you decide to have your own leg chopped off because you can’t afford a new pair of shoes.)

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Kamchak – you’re a tool

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Good to hear jcb. (Are they cleared?)

My grown son is fascinated with all things Japan, especially the anime…

I became really close friends with a sweet, kind fellow named Shinsuke while we were celebrating Todd Rundgren’s mind blowing, week long 60th birthday party in Kauai a couple of years ago…(The 1992 Utopia reunion LP recorded in Tokyo is an epic over there)

One world…

Hey bugatti. Let me consider all of that…

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Abolish NATO and there would be quite a few other countries doing some hiring. We can send them their way.

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Scratch that recognition has everything to do with plagiarism.

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AmVet

I’m not saying that they were Republicans, but they were definitely not Democrats.

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I hope Gary Coleman doesn’t die of a heart attack in the hospital. I do not want to hear any ‘Different Strokes’ jokes. That’s what I’m talkin bout.

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Guys, it’s not a constitutional essay. It’s a friggin joke. I’ve seen dozens posted here without credit to anyone.

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Stands, after program cuts, there would be the government employee pay/benefit issues. People would not necessarily loose their job. Instead, perahps a temporary pay decrease. That sounds harsh, but it may take that. Plus, with so many out of work now, dumping more into the unemployment lines would not work. And, a temporary wage reduction would still likely be more than unemployment.

I do agree that Europe has enjoyed our protection at little to no cost for too long. These are drastic times calling for drastic action.

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Jay

I’m only allowed to do it when I don’t make the moderator look like a fool. I’ll try to refrain from doing that, but you have to admit, you do make it difficult.

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Bugatti:

Just put everything in quotes. They tried that crap on me once. Anything to keep them from actually debating you.

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Guys, it’s not a constitutional essay. It’s a friggin joke.

Constitutional essay, joke, or the Gettysburg address—-it makes no difference. You posted someone else’s material and didn’t acknowledge it. “Johnny does it too” is rationalizing–not rational.

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Matilda

The lib love for Ray Charles?

Ray Charles had lots of problems performing in the South. This was during the 60s when there were no Republicans being elected anywhere in the South. So call it what you want, but Charles was mistreated by the same Jim Crow loving Democrats that were siccing dogs on MLK.

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Ooooooh. That bugatti fellow is a real bad arse. Better not cross him or he might say something mean.

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She’s German. However, the best thing that ever happened to me.

Ummm…not sure I would describe my wife as “thing.” I think what you mean to say is that your marriage to her is the best thing….

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bugatti,

Thanks, but I don’t need a history lesson from you. I’m well aware of the split that occurred among Southern Democrats during the civil rights era. In fact, as someone who is actually from Atlanta and descendent from generations of old-school southerners, I would like to remind people that not alll Southern Dems made the switch to the GOP when baited with racism and fear. MANY Southerners, including most members of my own family (I was a mere tot in those days) realized that the civil rights movement was both right and necessary, and actively supported and participated in the progression from 18th-century thinking into the 21st-century logic.

(Glad to see you backed off Jimi before I had to go all Voodoo child on your azz.)

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RIP Gary “what u tawkin bout willis” Coleman.

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TaxPayer

Ahhh. These debates poking others about who said what. And I’ve been told that liberals don’t ever want to actually debate, just gossip and complain.

Do you have anything you want to talk about other than your obvious problem with me, personally?

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ogk

Another one bites the dust…

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Using that ole Gladys Knight and the Pips routine eh?

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Matilda

Hendrix, like all Black artists of the day were fighting Jim Crow and the Democrats from both the North and the South. South Boston is still one of the most racist parts of the country and the location of the bloodiest and longest lasting race riots in the country. Not Macon, not Selma, but South Boston. I’m pretty sure that was Fat Teddy’s supporters.

But before you start preaching about how the South went GOP because the racism lingers, you might want to observe the race of most locally elected Southern officials compared with the race of most locally elected Northern officials.

Racism, like the DNC went north where it still lingers.

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The music of that era was what it was – pretty damn good, experimental and may I dare even say progressive?

Since you bring it up.

I go through these phases where I have to hear one (1) tune entirely too many times to get thoroughly sick of it, of late that tune’s been a live, 1968, Fillmore East recording of Procol Harum doing Repent Walpurgis.

I would be hard pressed to find a better example of what was both mind-blowingly engaging and ridiculously excessive about late-60s rock than that track. I mean, it is four chords, over and freaking over again, with a Bach concerto slipped in for a little major-chord relief from the minor chords.

And yet it’s so riveting and powerful, I just wish I could’ve been there, on my feet and screaming “Encore!” at the end, instead of the wee elementary school lad I actually was at the time.

If you don’t know the track, here’s a live 1971 version—even longer than the one on my mp3 player!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wQC7Kk4WOPU

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Kamchak, when I tell my wife she is the best thing that has ever happened to me, she likes it. That’s all that really matters.

Just so.

The last woman in my life gave me the ol’ raised eyebrow look and said “Thing?” the last time I used that line.

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I just read 2 pages of comments that said absolutely nothing

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More than one line and I can’t post it.

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Outhouse: “I know you will!” http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sRjfrj0N7eY

Bugatti, yes, I am aware of this as well. It’s one reason I try to reject stereotypes. I have visited parts of this country where there is very little racial diversity. It took a few days, but then I was like, “What’s wrong with this picture?” I’m happy here in my ethnically and culturally diverse hometown, despite all our troubles, and will keep working to bring the holdouts into the 21st Century. Basically, the “us vs. them” garbage isn’t working for anyone who chooses to use it as a substitute for thinking, and I’m tired of hearing it.

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SFD…is that the Procal Harun with Robin Trower or Post Robin?

PRetty sure that’s still Robin in 1971. Wiki sez he left in ‘72.

Definitely Robin on the live track I’ve been obsessing over.

And the funny thing is, the other evening I was playing it at home, trying to get my kid to dig it, and Mrs. sfd walks in midway through. It’s just after the Bach bit, and Robin’s just bending the livin’ hell out of those strings, and I’m having another religious experience all over again hearing this cranked up to 11, and what does the love of my life say?

“well that’s… REALLY annoying.”

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Amtilda

It is amazing to me that this “us vs them” argument that so many liberals now claim to believe, never came up during the Bush years.

Any explanation?

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bugatti,

You’re not stereotyping me, are you? I hated it then, too. After the attacks on our citizens, we were all one.. for a little while it seemed. We still had disagreements, but they were in perspective. I’m not sure exactly how it happened that we all seemed to turn on each other so viciously again, and so quickly — though I’m certain the tone of our “leadership” under a constant Rovian stream of advice played a large role — but that has been a great source of sadness for me ever since.

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Matilda

Good point, after nine one one, we all pulled together and felt unified. Our leadership squandered this opportunity bigtime. Instead, arrogance (bring em on) and hubris turned the world against us. Not only that but we were tricked into a war that brought great loss of life and treasure. Now the other side has said they want this president to fail and are working at everything they do to gum up the works. its both pathetic and sad…

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After 9/11?

Does anyone (left) want to talk about Bush’s reception immediately following the SCOTUS election ruling. You leftists never accepted him, and had no intentions of ever accepting him.

So it’s bullsh*t on the let’s get along garbage. You’ll get as good as you gave.

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There is no button I can push that would limit someone to a one-line post.

But we all know that you can take over our computers, if not our minds and only post what you want us to.

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Seriously though, what is it about the intellectual property rights of musicians that Republicans can’t wrap their head around?

It started in 1984 with Reagan using “Born in the USA” and Springsteen having to threaten to sue if they didn’t stop playing it and continued to this week with Charlie Crist. It’s been 26 freakin’ years and Republicans just can’t seem to learn they need to get permission before they use an artists’ music.

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jewcowboy,

Or they need to use artists who like them, like Ted Nuggent.

Glad your back and refreshed.

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Of course you had Lieberman using “Still the One” without permission. And to add fuel to the fire John Hall, the songwriter, was a Ned Lamont fan.

Of course Lieberman and Crist are Independents now…so maybe only Democrats understand you have to pay an artist for the right to use their songs.

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Hey, Bosch, sorry I’m late to note this, but I’m glad you liked the Shell Oil exec interview I’d linked yesterday.

Weird, huh, hearing an oil company kingpin propose the sort of thing (an Energy Reserve Board) that’d get Obama called “Socialist! Sooper Sooper Double-Plus Socialist” by the usual suspects were he to propose it himself?

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Even betterer charts and graphs are here.

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You may notice that it took the second year in his second term before his ratings dropped to where Obama is now.

And? so? If you’re trying to make the point that Obama’s ratings are extra sucky, have you checked where Reagan’s were midway through his first term?

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sfd,

Yeah, I enjoyed it – he had alot of good ideas which I’m sure most of the wingnuts here would soil their Depends if they heard. It’s funny when you hear people out in the real world who actually know what they are talking about. After reading through the posts here it’s enough to make you realize that humanity doesn’t suck after all!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

jewcowboy,

I knew there were others but couldn’t come up with any off the top of my head — Johnny Ramone? Really? And Alice Cooper is just a freak.

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“So if Bush was that dumb and able to trick the Democrats, how dumb were the Democrats?”

More spineless than brainless, I’d say. Sadly, that’s one stereotype that is too often difficult to refute.

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Unions—SQUIRREL!

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bugatti,

Merely proclaiming the link that I provided to be biased does not make it so. If you care to pick out some specific numbers from their presentations and show the bias, go ahead. I’ll wait.

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OK, Blog God – I’ll change that word.

sfd,

Sort of like the Gallagher bros (Oasis)? But, I think their biggest problem is that they are just complete asses.

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CNN’s ratings continue to fall; Fox News has best quarter in network history

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Taxpayer

I posted a line from their own site describing themselves as being unfair and wanting to shape the debate. That’s enough to convince me.

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Today, 5 weeks after the Deepwater Horizon disaster he visits the coast.

Are you saying that Obama hasn’t been to the gulf coast since this incident?

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Come on libs. The union is a thing of the past. We have government regulators now. The union has run its course. It is now just one, big stinking turd pulling down the American economy.

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jewcowboy, OOOOOh I know, because he knows he won’t win TN anyways!

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bugatti,

You posted a line from their site and claimed bias based on that. I don’t think you know the definition of bias, based on your post. Of course, feel free to prove me wrong. I suggest starting with the definition of bias. I’ll continue to wait.

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BMDPD, 8% pulls down the entire US economy? Methinks you give them WAY too much credit.

And purposely avoid looking at the factor that is nearly ten times more relevant…

BTW, I think you are dead wrong.

Americans organizing to protect their interests is not dead. It is as American as apple pie. Look at the Tea Party.

To crush that effort is just communistic in my view.

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“…why does Fox continually get better ratings?”

Can’t say. I suppose because it is all they watch…

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I have talked to three former plant managers in the last 6 months. They are all out of a job. Why? Mexico, China and Union! Union = big stinking turd.

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The union would rather watch a business go under than concede. Union = big stinking turd. I should add sinking too! It pulls the rest down with it!

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BMDPD,

I watch BBC America. They don’t go all slobbering on the sensationalism.

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BMDPD,

And what Matilda wrote – yeah, I like that.

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Matilda,

“and that our foes are all completely satanic.”

I had to say something good about Saxby today and it made me feel all icky inside.

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BBC is a good source too.

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CNN is the most neutral. The do slant slightly to the left.

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Did someone say budget. Perhapsthis will help.

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bugatti said, And I really love it when liberals claim that the dumbest man (according to every lib I have ever talked to) to ever occupy the White House was able to trick all those Democrat Rhodes Scholars into voting to go to war.

And Bugatti was not tricked I suppose. He knew that Iraq did not weapons of mass destruction all along, and Bugatti still thought it was a good idea to invade Iraq. Right. And how smart was that?

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Forced to choose between fiscal insolvency and tax hikes, you are choosing fiscal insolvency, and to hell with the country.

Socialists have a mental disorder which prevents them from even considering a “third way”…spending cuts. Cut off the parasites, government union thugs, and wealthy old folks still on the dole and we can balance that budget right quick.

Or, we can follow the Idiot Messiah and add another trillion or so to the national debt, borrowed from the Chinese.

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