The political calendar dictates odd approach to DADT
Congress, the White House and the Pentagon have agreed to a rather complicated dance that come December should end in the abolition of the “Don’t ask, don’t tell” policy toward gay Americans serving openly in the military.
Under the agreement, a bill stripping the policy from federal law would be put to a vote quickly, but if passed would not take effect until a Pentagon study is completed and released, a step expected to occur Dec. 1.
Then, once Defense Secretary Robert Gates and President Obama get the report and certify that the change would not harm military readiness, the change would take effect and DADT would fade into the history books alongside Jim Crow laws and other discriminatory legislation.
But why the odd scheduling? It’s almost certainly an attempt to resolve a conflict between two timetables.
The Pentagon’s report is due Dec. 1. But a month before that, the nation goes to the polls, and even the more optimistic of Democrats acknowledge they are likely to lose seats in Congress if not outright control. Bluntly put, the White House and Democratic leaders in Congress have looked ahead and worry that when they finally get the Pentagon’s report, they won’t have the votes to implement it legislatively.
The solution? You pass a bill now, when you may still have the votes to do so, but delay it to ensure the Pentagon still gets its say. It’s a convoluted, jury-rigged, side-door means of killing a convoluted, jury-rigged side-door policy.
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307 comments Add your comment
Kamchak
May 25th, 2010
3:34 pm
Some of the “straight men” on here seem to have an fascination with men bending over that borders on the obsessive.
Channeling El Rushbo?
http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2009/05/21/limbaugh_obsession/index.html
Curious Observer
May 25th, 2010
3:34 pm
Dad- Bottom line is during a firefight, you need to trust and rely 100% on the person next to you, and that’s not going to happen under the proposed agreement
I don’t understand this line of thinking. When I was on active duty in the Marine Corps, the last thing I was likely to think about was the sexual orientation of the person in the hole next to me. Is the imputation of the comment that gays are untrustworthy? If so, I don’t believe it. My entire service experience was about developing teamwork and exercising a sense of honor and sacrifice. I don’t see why a guy who happens to be gay can’t have those characteristics as well as a guy who’ straight. I do know from four years’ experience that the Marine Corps is quite good at identifying people with character defects and discharging them. I was more concerned about the two guys who sat around the barracks beating their knees with a pup tent pole section in the hope of getting a medical discharge than I was about any person who might have been gay.
Hudson's Rock
May 25th, 2010
3:34 pm
TGL,
Own your issues, buddy.
Jay's blog
May 25th, 2010
3:35 pm
What if Adam and Eve were gay. Would explain the apple, the fig leaves, and the snake.
theyeshaveit
May 25th, 2010
3:35 pm
typo: “guys” should be “gays”
TGL
May 25th, 2010
3:36 pm
Jay, it did not have any negative effect on moral. In fact, I could tell you a few stories that would make you laugh. My point was that straight people felt protected because of don’t ask don’t tell. That gave straight people a sense of comfort. Make fun of people all you want, but there are some that are really uncomfortable being around homosexuals. By repealing don’t ask don’t tell, they are losing their rights. Unlike public life, you just can’t leave the military if you feel uncomfortable in a situation. But many on here would much rather protect homosexuals and make fun of those who are uncomfortable around homosexuals.
josef nix
May 25th, 2010
3:38 pm
Kinda entertaining for one of the target group to scroll through…
First, the proposed legislation…we’re going to pass legislation to repeal Jim Crow, but then we’re going to have Bull Connors and Company come in to refine it…yeah, sure, uh-hunh, whatever. We’ll see. This ain’t playing too well in the gay ghetto in Peoria…
As for the straight men so worried about gay folks in the military—they’re already there. Been there at least since Johnathan and David, Alexander the Great, Julius Caesar, General Patrick Cleburne…and so on ad infinitum.
Now, what I still can’t seem to get is all these straight men so worried about gay men wanting to knock off a piece…good, L-rd! What in the world would we want with that? That’s up there with their fantasies about sex with lesbians…most gay folks I know can’t be bothered since most of these so worried look like a Friday t*rd at a Saturday market to begin with and are generally as dumb as sixteen trashcans…nothing to recommend them for so much effort in either the brains or body arena…
Now, ask a gay man or woman and they’ll be the firsts to give you magillah on the number of straight men who’ve put the hit on them…usually after a few drinks…
Ex-Terminator
May 25th, 2010
3:38 pm
What is the matter with you panzies. You are not supposed to be thinking while you are killing. You save the thinking for when you are a goobernator, like me.
Bosch
May 25th, 2010
3:39 pm
“My point was that straight people felt protected because of don’t ask don’t tell. That gave straight people a sense of comfort.”
Yeah, as a straight person, I can undeniably say that policies that have nothing to do with me really make me feel relaxed and at ease.
stands for decibels
May 25th, 2010
3:39 pm
“guys” should be “gays”
oh noes! the homosexual agenda, revealed!
theyeshaveit
May 25th, 2010
3:40 pm
Curious, I hear you. Also, it occurs to me that I was on some athletic teams in high school which included, I suspect, some gays. I am sure others who played sports can say the same thing. Were our teams any less effective? I certainly doubt it.
Hudson's Rock
May 25th, 2010
3:40 pm
So lying about yourself is a way to bring about loyalty and trust with your fellow soldiers, while telling the truth about yourself breaks down unit cohesion?
Only in the minds of the chronically stupid.
Scooter
May 25th, 2010
3:40 pm
dang,I got here in time to see the Redneck wants to shower with Matilda.
Are you going to do it Matilda?
TGL
May 25th, 2010
3:41 pm
Bosch, you are just being a hard head. It gave straight people the sense of comfort that if a gay person ‘crossed the line’ that they would be dealt with accordingly.
theyeshaveit
May 25th, 2010
3:41 pm
std, damn I am being run over the coals today for my typos and spellos. And I have not even called you sTd once today!
Normal
May 25th, 2010
3:41 pm
TGL
May 25th, 2010
3:36 pm
Why in the world would you feel uncomfortable around a gay Man? Are you afraid you’ll turn into one? In case you didn’t know, being gay is biological…and therefore normal to them. Accept that and you will have come a long way to understanding…
theyeshaveit
May 25th, 2010
3:41 pm
OmG. lol. In fact, I did. Call me spasmodic.
jt
May 25th, 2010
3:42 pm
This article from the WSJ doesn’t mention how many of these employees were gay.
WASHINGTON—Employees of a federal agency that regulates offshore drilling—including some whose duties included inspecting offshore oil rigs—accepted sporting-event tickets, meals, and other gifts from oil and natural-gas companies and used government computers to view pornography, according to a new report by the Interior Department’s inspector general.
Among other things, the report says that in 2005, 2006 and 2007, MMS employees attended a number of events either organized or partly funded by various offshore companies, including hunting and fishing trips and, golf tournaments. It quotes an industry official as describing how he arranged for two MMS inspectors to fly with him on a friend’s plane to the 2005 Peach Bowl and to get tickets to the game.
TGL
May 25th, 2010
3:42 pm
Hudson’s Rock, gay people in the miltary didn’t have to lie. They just couldn’t flaunt it.
Aquagirl
May 25th, 2010
3:42 pm
I dunno why the skeered of teh gayz crowd thinks DADT is a good idea. I mean, wouldn’t you want to *know* who’s gay, instead of them furtively eyeing your smooth, rippled body in the shower? Lord knows you don’t want to find out when they inevitably lose control over your magnificent manhood.
JKL2
May 25th, 2010
3:43 pm
theyeshaveit- JKL2, I know a recruiter who would like to talk to you.
????? I haven’t seen one for a couple days but I did talk to MEPS yesterday if that helps you. Otherwise I’ve already been a recruiter so I doubt if we’d have much to talk about.
Scrappy- trying to save a woman during a firefight is “dumb
Irrational behavior in a firefight is dangerous to everyone involved. Women on the battlefield has been shown to cause irrational behavior. Thus we’ve tried to eliminate that problem by not allowing women in combat jobs.
Kamchak
May 25th, 2010
3:43 pm
Now, ask a gay man or woman and they’ll be the firsts to give you magillah on the number of straight men who’ve put the hit on them…usually after a few drinks…
Then it could be argued that these “straights” really aren’t—or are they dipping a toe in the water?
moonbat betty
May 25th, 2010
3:43 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LrllCZw8jiM
jt
May 25th, 2010
3:45 pm
Dow plunges below 10,000 as Wall St. slide goes on
Wall Street slide continues; Dow below 10,000 as investors worry about Europe
No word on how many gays this affected.
TGL
May 25th, 2010
3:45 pm
Normal, I am not nearly conceited enough to believe just because a man is gay, that he is attracted to me. I know that if I were ‘hit on’ all I would have to say is “Thanks, but I am straight.” and the person would leave me alone. There are other people out there that do not want to be put in that awkward situation.
theyeshaveit
May 25th, 2010
3:46 pm
TGL, I had the same thoughts as Normal. Why would you be uncomfortable being around gay men?
Kamchak
May 25th, 2010
3:48 pm
Dow plunges below 10,000 as Wall St. slide goes on
I wouldn’t characterize a 40 point drop as a plunge.
Ex-Terminator
May 25th, 2010
3:49 pm
All I know is that those panzies in that Glee show on TeeVee are gay.
TGL
May 25th, 2010
3:49 pm
theyeshaveit, look at my post directly above yours.
jt
May 25th, 2010
3:49 pm
The best method is to just show complete obedience to your federal governemnt worker master
.Do not show any eye contact. This goes for gays too……………I think.
From USA Today.
WASHINGTON — Airline passengers who get frustrated and make a pithy comment to a screener could find themselves in a little-known Homeland Security database.
The Transportation Security Administration says it is keeping records of people who make its screeners feel threatened as part of an effort to prevent workplace violence.
Bosch
May 25th, 2010
3:49 pm
TGL,
“Bosch, you are just being a hard head.”
Please, TGL, I feel very uncomfortable with your sexual advances towards me.
Aquagirl
May 25th, 2010
3:49 pm
Oh, I get it, TGL is soooooooo concerned for “this friend of mine, who, like, had this gay guy lookin’ at him so I, uh, my friend really freaked out, ’cause what if he touched IT, and I, uh, my friend…..”
theyeshaveit
May 25th, 2010
3:50 pm
TGL, what? In the position of having to say no? Just say it. End of story. What’s the problem?
TGL
May 25th, 2010
3:51 pm
Bosch, I am sorry. Normal, you are being a hard head.
Normal
May 25th, 2010
3:51 pm
Headed out folks, It’s been fun. I’ll try to check in later.
md
May 25th, 2010
3:52 pm
The argument about showering is a bit illogical – so it is ok to shower with them if you don’t know they are gay, but it is not ok if you know they are gay?
I can see being uncomfortable when showering when it’s known, and that is why the sexes shower separate. That can be solved by having only one shower – then everybody can be equally uncomfortable.
Soothsayer
May 25th, 2010
3:52 pm
Canadian Government Pays Organization To Troll Political Chat Forums
Accusations that people who defend the seemingly indefensible in the aftermath of government atrocities, wars and scandals are in the pay of unscrupulous authorities, circulate on a regular basis. But the fact is that governments and transnational corporations have made a habit of using the Internet to spread propaganda by using individuals who pose as neutral observers.
The innovator of these “black propaganda” techniques was undoubtedly Monsanto, who as far back the late 90’s were creating “fake citizens” via their PR front company Bivings to post messages on Internet bulletin boards lauding the virtues and scoffing at the dangers of genetically modified food.
Jay, you should read this. Now we know why Andy and some of the “others” are on this blog 24/7.
Normal
May 25th, 2010
3:53 pm
TGL
May 25th, 2010
3:51 pm
Bosch, I am sorry. Normal, you are being a hard head.
Thanks! I’m really proud of my standing.
TGL
May 25th, 2010
3:53 pm
TGL has been hit on before in a club in Athens. Some dude has some girl ask me if I was single. I said yes and she gave me his card. We got a good laugh out of that.
AmVet
May 25th, 2010
3:54 pm
“Women on the battlefield has been shown to cause irrational behavior.”
Tell that to the Israelis…you misogynistic, anti-Semite! (Just kidding, just kidding…)
(Unless of course they are as fine as most of these!)
TGL
May 25th, 2010
3:54 pm
Normal, see Bosch’s post at 3:49.
theyeshaveit
May 25th, 2010
3:55 pm
I am sorry folks, but I have heard all kinds of excuses and rationalizations today from lack of fighting readiness, discomfort in the presence of gays, potential immodesty in the shower room and even paying taxes to support gays and their partners. Good grief. Just say the real reason – you are a phobe.
Got to check out now and pay some bills – literally.
TGL
May 25th, 2010
3:56 pm
Gotta go, but I still will stand with my original two points.
1. Acting on any attraction is a CHOICE.
2. DADT is a good thing. It protects both parties.
Have a good day.
JKL2
May 25th, 2010
3:58 pm
normal, theyes, etc…
PVT Carl is dating PVT Bill. New PVT Steve is assigned to the platoon and now PVT Carl dumps Bill for Steve. The platoon is going on a 45 day field training exercise. Explain the effects the situation will have on unit cohesion?
Now change FTX to 12 month combat rotation. How is the situation further magnified?
Gale
May 25th, 2010
3:58 pm
TGL, Normal just made me think about something related to abnormalities in the military. No, not gays. Left handedness. What do you do with soldiers who are left handed? Do they still have to carry their weapon on the right shoulder?
TGL
May 25th, 2010
4:00 pm
They did in drill formation.
scrappy
May 25th, 2010
4:01 pm
“Women on the battlefield has been shown to cause irrational behavior.”
Couldn’t it be said that being on the battlefield causes irrational behavior?
What if all the women on the battlefield were lesbians? Perhaps if the men fighting along side of them realized there weren’t going to be getting any action later the guys behavior would be rational?
jt
May 25th, 2010
4:01 pm
Gays will be able to experience this too. I am sure that gays everywhere are thanking ya’ll for defending their “rights’ to fight for our “freedoms”. After all, we must fight them over there so we don’t have to do it here.
From the Times London—————————-(the M4 is basically the same as the M16.)
The future of the standard issue infantry rifle used by American troops in Afghanistan is under review amid concerns that it is the wrong weapon for the job.
With its light bullets the M4 rifle lacks sufficient velocity and killing power in long-range firefights, leaving US troops outgunned by the Taleban and their AK47 Kalashnikovs and the old Russian SVD sniper rifle.
British Forces face the same dilemma but the Ministry of Defence said yesterday that there was no plan to review the SA80A2 rifle, which fires the same Nato 5.56mm calibre rounds as its US counterpart. “We constantly review all of our capabilities,” a spokesman said.
However, Britain has followed the US in investing in 400 new larger-calibre Sharpshooter rifles, which use a heavier 7.62mm round, and are effective at longer ranges. The weapon is expected to be deployed in Afghanistan, alongside the standard rifle, by the end of the month.
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
May 25th, 2010
4:04 pm
something related to abnormalities in the military.
And that reminds me. It’s not enough this Obama was born in Kenya. And it’s not enough he’s one of Those People. No, he’s got to go and be left-handed to boot. Just watch him. He shoots a basketball left-handed. He signs things left-handed.
Prevert!
jt
May 25th, 2010
4:05 pm
Heck, thanks to ya’ll’s advocacy, some Gays might even get to get in on some old-fashioned torture.
House Kills Plan to Close Guantánamo
by Andy Worthington, May 25, 2010
President Obama’s hopes of closing Guantánamo, which were already gravely wounded by his inability to meet his self-imposed deadline of a year for the prison’s closure, now appear to have been killed off by lawmakers in Congress.
Only in the land of the free.
scrappy
May 25th, 2010
4:05 pm
JKL2 – How is that any different from PVT Carla and PVT Bill, & Carla dumping Bill for Steve. ??
gotta go… people will continue to believe what they want to believe, there will be no reasoning with people like JKL2 & Williebkind…
gagay
May 25th, 2010
4:07 pm
Ken R 2:29 How would you know it was a gay male “watching” you take a wiz and not a straight male. Do you expect him to be suddenly wearing curlers or something just because he can’t be kicked out for being gay?
And why does your ego think he would even WANT to watch you? Trust me…most of the straight men out there aren’t worth watching!
Pogo
May 25th, 2010
4:08 pm
Just 41.2% of the wage income in the US is now coming from the private sector (the sector that actually pays for the federal governments spending). Guess where the rest is coming from. We cannot not maintain our country at these levels. If government spending isn’t cut drastically and soon to level out this number, our country is headed down the drain in a truly European fashion.
Gale
May 25th, 2010
4:08 pm
Huh? Check out the DOW. All but recovered from this morning. I guess the bargain shoppers think the slump is temporary.
AmVet
May 25th, 2010
4:09 pm
Didn’t we hear all these “arguments” when DADT was first proposed?
Maybe some here have conveniently “forgotten” but many in the right wing, went ballistic, batshiite crazy.
Even though congressional testimony revealed that after an extensive review of the relevant published research from the social and behavioral sciences the research data show that there is nothing about lesbians and gay men that makes them inherently unfit for military service, and there is nothing about heterosexuals that makes them inherently unable to work and live with gay people in close quarters.
Also, the American Psychological Association stated that empirical evidence fails to show that sexual orientation is germane to any aspect of military effectiveness including unit cohesion, morale, recruitment and retention
OH NO! NOT SO! Loss of morale! Unit cohesion! Moral turpitude! (Like that mattered much to most recruiters?)
All baloney.
THEN AND NOW.
(Unless one considers that the Iranian Army is the only one exempt from such devastating problems…)
http://humour.200ok.com.au/image_nicebigcup.html
Kamchak
May 25th, 2010
4:12 pm
Trust me…most of the straight men out there aren’t worth watching!
Quelle idée!
gagay
May 25th, 2010
4:12 pm
RB from Gwinett: GUESS WHAT? They’re showering with gays NOW!
JKL2
May 25th, 2010
4:13 pm
Gale- Do they still have to carry their weapon on the right shoulder?
Yes, they are just carrying them. Taking it off your shoulder and firing is different.
jt- they can keep their AK47. It’s dependable and fires a bigger bullet but not nearly as accurate. An old M14 is much better. The 240B is the best thing we have but it’s not a rifle so everyone wouldn’t carry one. The best thing about an M4 is that it’s light and the ammo is lighter than the 7.62. Bullets of any size tend to get your head down. Might as well carry less weight if it has the same effect.
josef nix
May 25th, 2010
4:15 pm
gagay
“And why does your ego think he would even WANT to watch you? Trust me…most of the straight men out there aren’t worth watching!”
And in the spirit of fairness, neither are most gay men…sorta why I can’t understand why so many straight men are looking at us!
Do any of y’all warriors know the story of how the Gestapo Headquarters was blown up during the occupation of Holland?
JKL2
May 25th, 2010
4:16 pm
scrappy- How is that any different?
Carla would be left in the rear with the gear. It’s still a problem, it’s just not in your face the way my scenario is. Why do you insist on bringing more problems into an already stessful situation?
AmVet
May 25th, 2010
4:17 pm
A 2006 Zogby International poll of military members found that 26% favor of gays serving in the military, 37% opposed, and 37% expressed no preference or were unsure. 66% of respondents who had experience with gays in their unit said their presence had either no impact or a positive impact on their personal morale, while 64% said the same applied to overall unit morale. As for respondents uncertain whether they had served with gay personnel, 51% thought gays would have a neutral or positive effect on personal morale, while 48% thought that they would have a negative effect. More generally, 73% of respondents said that they felt comfortable in the presence of gay and lesbian personnel.[23]
Former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Gen. John Shalikashvili (Ret.)[24] and former Senator and Secretary of Defense William Cohen[25] spoke against the policy publicly in January 2007: “I now believe that if gay men and lesbians served openly in the United States military, they would not undermine the efficacy of the armed forces,” General Shalikashvili wrote. “Our military has been stretched thin by our deployments in the Middle East, and we must welcome the service of any American who is willing and able to do the job.”[26]
In December 2007, 28 retired generals and admirals urged Congress to repeal the policy, citing evidence that 65,000 gay men and women are currently serving in the armed forces and that there are over 1,000,000 gay veterans.[26][27] On November 17, 2008, 104 retired generals and admirals signed a similar statement.
In summary, I ask you Republicans and assorted faux conservatives, vis a vis ending DADT (and before that implementing it and before that integrating the military and before that…), how is it possible that you can be so damned wrong about damn near everything?
What is the secret? How does one turn their brain off with such ease?
RB from Gwinnett
May 25th, 2010
4:18 pm
“The answer is pretty easy, because it’s the same answer that applies to heterosexual relationships. If a woman receives an unwanted sexual advance, she can reply verbally anywhere from a range of “not tonight, thanks, I have to wash my grandmother’s hair” to “buzz off, you jerk!” ”
The difference, Jay, is she wouldn’t then be required to go shower with the man in an open shower and go sleep in the bunk below/beside/under him. For a few years.
Del
May 25th, 2010
4:18 pm
This is all about the Dem’s vote pandering to their hard-left base hoping to fire them up for November. They know they’re in trouble and the last thing they would want is for their base to become apathetic. If this so called study is conducted objectively the results will show repeal of DADT will seriously impact recruiting, re-enlistments and the military officer corps. I think they may be more concerned about November then they are about helping homosexuals serving in the military.
Gale
May 25th, 2010
4:19 pm
Correct me if I’m wrong guys. In urban combat, the likelihood a a firefight at long distances is less, right? My memories of varmint shooting was that too much velocity would not kill the varmint. A lower velocity provides a better put down while high velocity goes right through the target. The new gun seems like a good choice when combined with less weight.
Kamchak
May 25th, 2010
4:19 pm
In summary, I ask you Republicans and assorted faux conservatives, vis a vis ending DADT (and before that implementing it and before that integrating the military and before that…), how is it possible that you can be so damned wrong about damn near everything?
I believe it was just the other evening that the subject of God given talents was discussed.
Political Translator
May 25th, 2010
4:21 pm
Just 41.2% of the wage income in the US is now coming from the private sector (the sector that actually pays for the federal governments spending). Guess where the rest is coming from. We cannot not maintain our country at these levels. If government spending isn’t cut drastically and soon to level out this number, our country is headed down the drain in a truly European fashion.
Our taxes are already way too high. It’s time to cut them again. Let’s take a meat ax to the federal budget. Get rid of any programs that benefit minorities, like Medicaid. Cut the old geezers loose and get rid of Social Security and Medicare. But be sure to keep the tax breaks for corporations and businesses. And of course we can’t afford federal healthcare. People will just have to die, I guess.
Rightwing Troll
May 25th, 2010
4:22 pm
I say if a man can make it thru Parris Island without washing out, he deserves to be a Marine regardless of how he chooses to use his equipment… I wouldn’t expect any of the real flamers to make it that far, and if they did and couldn’t control thier urges the men in thier unit would find a way to discourage said “urges”.
Psssttt… not all gay men are like Nathan Lane in “The Birdcage”. I play ball on Tuesday nights and there’s a team of gay guys who pretty much rule the gym, and it ain’t because of thier fashion sensibilities…
Pogo
May 25th, 2010
4:27 pm
AND, our current sham of a “Commander in Chief” has chosen to go on vacation in Chicago instead of speaking at Arlington on Memorial day. He will, however, send Bozo Biden there to speak. What with the gulf oil spill crisis, the Korean Crisis, the European debt crisis and the American Economy still sinking you would think he would stay home and do a little work (or at least appear to look like he was working). With the US actively engaged in two wars you would think this loser would at least want to at least acknowledge our fallen and speak at Arlington on Memorial Day but no, he chose to wine and dine in Chicago and maybe watch a play about racism instead. It doesn’t take a genius to figure what this guy’s real motivation is all about. He believes in only one thing and one thing only.
Curious Observer
May 25th, 2010
4:29 pm
say if a man can make it thru Parris Island without washing out, he deserves to be a Marine regardless of how he chooses to use his equipment… I wouldn’t expect any of the real flamers to make it that far, and if they did and couldn’t control thier urges the men in thier unit would find a way to discourage said “urges”.
It’s called a blanket party, RT. It happens late at night after the DIs have retired. It involves stretching a blanket tightly over an offending recruit, filling socks with bars of soap, and . . .
gagay
May 25th, 2010
4:30 pm
Let me ask “A Dad”…do you think Isreal’s military is ill equipped to handle problems? Do you think they are behind the times? Do you think they lack ” unit cohesiveness”? Clue: Gays serve OPENLY in their military.
Hillbilly Deluxe
May 25th, 2010
4:32 pm
Gale
In reading “Blackhawk Down”, there was a particular Delta Force soldier, don’t recall which one, who would not carry the standard issue weapon (M-16 at that time, if I’m not mistaken). He preferred an M-14 because when he knocked somebody down, he wanted them to stay knocked down. He didn’t want them to leave the scene and know know if they were still capable of returning or not.
And the .58 caliber, low velocity weapons of the Civil War, are a prime example of what devastation a low velocity weapon can wreak. Of course, battlefield medicine is better now than then, but if you were hit somewhere that you couldn’t put a tourniquet on it, you were most likely going to die. And the large number of amputations was due to the shattered bones, which absorbed all the force of the Minie Ball.
Pogo
May 25th, 2010
4:37 pm
PT, it appears you are willing to sacrifice nothing as I would expect from people who believe like yourself. The point is you can raise the taxes all you want and there still won’t be enough money if current government spending levels are maintained or increased. I don’t suspect you could or would want to understand that. But you had to bring that word “minorities” into it didn’t you? When you have nothing else, then throw the “CARD”, right? It is truly too bad everyone doesn’t have a “CARD” to throw, isn’t it? Then we would have an excuse for everything wrong we, as a people, either did or believed, wouldn’t we?
Curious Observer
May 25th, 2010
4:39 pm
He preferred an M-14 because when he knocked somebody down, he wanted them to stay knocked down.
The M-1 and the M-14 were both fine weapons because of the heavy caliber. After the issuance of the M-16, the combat troops might as well have been issued .22 rifles for all the knockdown power they had. Instead of continuing to rely on markmanship, the officers in charge chose to favor sheer volume of fire.
Del
May 25th, 2010
4:40 pm
Gale,
Back in the 60’s the military moved forward with the M16 designed by a guy named Gene Stoner. The M16 chambered for the 5.56×45 round was designed based on the theory that a small cal. round fired at high velocity penetrates and begins to tilt and fragment producing greater wound shocking trauma with less chance for over penetration as compared to heavier ammunition such as the former 7.62 NATO round. The M16 was fraught with serious malfunctions during combat in Vietnam. It has since evolved since into an effective infantry shoulder weapon. You’re correct most light infantry combat is within 200 meters making the shorter range 5.56 effective with less chance for over penetration.
md
May 25th, 2010
4:43 pm
Folks like PT have their head in the sand – the country is sick, and at some point will have to take it’s medicine to get better – and it will be a yucky tasting medicine when we have to take it.
MAC
May 25th, 2010
4:43 pm
Why are liberal commentators so obsessed with this? CT and JB both have columns today. This doesn’t make my top 20 list of important things going on.
tm
May 25th, 2010
4:47 pm
I say we go to Do Ask Do Tell and have have separate units for each group. We will have the gay, not gay, and bi units in each branch of the service.
JKL2
May 25th, 2010
4:50 pm
curious- Instead of continuing to rely on markmanship, the officers in charge chose to favor sheer volume of fire.
That’s why they went to 3 round burst rather than full auto. 1) it makes you aim rather than just spraying bullets. 2) it was determined firing three rounds often had the same effect of getting heads down that firing a whole magazine on full auto did. Helps keep down collateral damage when you actually look at what you’re shooting at.
Monty
May 25th, 2010
4:52 pm
maybe there’s a principle involved, Bosch – that the gross deserve their share of titillation, too. I know, that’s gross.
AmVet
May 25th, 2010
4:54 pm
Why is MAC so obsessed that liberal commentators are so obsessed with this?
And why am I so obsessed that MAC is so obsessed that liberal commentators are so obsessed with this?
OH NO! Where does it all end?
You Francis’s (hat tip moonbat betty ay 3:43) out there who think the US military is some sort of Sodom and Gomorrah had better lighten up. (Or I’ll kill ya.)
JKL2
May 25th, 2010
4:55 pm
MAC- This doesn’t make my top 20 list of important things going on.
Shhhh… Don’t tell Obama that. You would want to do anything do disrupt his “laser-like focus” on job creation and the economy. Deflecting the issue distracts you from their inability to deal with serious problems.
Del
May 25th, 2010
4:56 pm
Curious Observer,
The current NATO 5.56×45 was originally designed from the 222.Cal. it flunked the tests, however, the magnum version effectively met military specifications so the new 5.56 is a variant of the 222. magnum now called 223.cal. and the military version with higher pressure and greater velocity is the 5.56×45 NATO round.
Bosch
May 25th, 2010
4:56 pm
Del,
“This is all about the Dem’s vote pandering to their hard-left base hoping to fire them up for November. They know they’re in trouble and the last thing they would want is for their base to become apathetic”
So? The hard right does it too – all they gotta do is put something about gays marrying each other or heaven forbid we might be able to buy beer on Sundays and the wingnuts come to vote a slobbering.
josef nix
May 25th, 2010
4:59 pm
Del
“I think they may be more concerned about November then they are about helping homosexuals serving in the military.”
I think you’re right. The country’s gay constituency could, as in California with Prop 8, be overlooked, and even punched in the gut with preacher Warren…the numbers just weren’t that crucial in the crunching. So what if you pi$$ed them off, they’ll get over it. Well, they didn’t and the finance department made it pretty clear that what gays had lacked in numbers, they made up for in contributions to the coffers. That brought an ouch report. Still, though, even with the slow erosion of the Democrat support base, there was no way come election day this special interest group would be jumping ship and voting for the GOP. True. But they would take seriously the third option of staying home. As races have tightened, this not-so-crucial voting bloc, with a long and strong tradition of heavy turnout, has become pivotal in many races. The dog has to be thrown a bone, and, in my opinion, this is just that…and as I said above, it’s not playing well in the gay ghetto of Peoria…
Bosch
May 25th, 2010
4:59 pm
And I just gotta say that three (ish) week old puppies eating food (or rather attempting too) is just plain cute.
@@
May 25th, 2010
5:07 pm
When it comes to DADT and comprehensive immigration reform, I’m neither here nor there. They’re both very complex. Having said that, the military has never been into social mores. I don’t think that was their intended purpose, but even they have succumbed to political pressure.
So: Verbal rejection, even a cruel verbal rejection, fine. But if there’s no attempted coercion, then no physical violence in the rejection.
Simple rules. Not a complicated thing in the least.
Is this a moment in which we can talk about the three Navy seals who were put on trial for doing their jobs?
I didn’t think so.
Del
May 25th, 2010
5:08 pm
Bosch,
Of course all politicians pander to their base. My point is that the Dem’s favoring this premature vote aren’t doing so out of concern for the homosexual community, they’re doing it hoping to keep their base fired up. While I do enjoy a good beer now and then, I promise that I won’t vote a slobbering.
Saul Good
May 25th, 2010
5:11 pm
The ONLY things that should be “Don’t Ask Don’t Tell” in the military are one’s religious or political beliefs…THOSE are the two things that do not belong on the battlefield or within the very ranks of our men and women in uniform.
DoggoneGA
May 25th, 2010
5:12 pm
“My point is that the Dem’s favoring this premature vote aren’t doing so out of concern for the homosexual community, they’re doing it hoping to keep their base fired up”
Who cares? As long as it’s repealed it doesn’t matter WHY it was done.
Pogo
May 25th, 2010
5:12 pm
Obama to aides: ‘Plug the damn hole’
As critics question whether the White House is being tough enough with BP, Obama is reportedly showing his frustration behind closed doors:
Since the oil rig exploded, the White House has tried to project a posture that is unflappable and in command.
But to those tasked with keeping the president apprised of the disaster, Obama’s clenched jaw is becoming an increasingly familiar sight. During one of those sessions in the Oval Office the first week after the spill, a president who rarely vents his frustration cut his aides short, according to one who was there.
“Plug the damn hole,” Obama told them.
What a genius. Why didn’t we think of this sooner? It’s all so simple! A Whitehouse totally out of its league.
josef nix
May 25th, 2010
5:13 pm
@@
“Is this a moment in which we can talk about the three Navy seals who were put on trial for doing their jobs?”
I know this is a serious issue, but, I just can’t resist…if we didn’t have DADT, then they could say, “all I did was b*tch slap the sissie…” and they’d've got off Scot free with a commendation since, after all, that’s “just part of the gay male culture and we have to respect it…” ISH
AmVet
May 25th, 2010
5:16 pm
One minor point, the White House has no league.
Maybe you’re thinking?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MhU-5M-VR0s
@@
May 25th, 2010
5:17 pm
josef:
By jobe, I think you’re onto something!!!
___________________________________
I dare say that Obama may be talking about plugging a various assortment of holes.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm! Just sayin...
May 25th, 2010
5:17 pm
The trend is not sustainable, says University of Michigan economist Donald Grimes. Reason: The federal government depends on private wages to generate income taxes to pay for its ever-more-expensive programs. Government-generated income is taxed at lower rates or not at all, he says. “This is really important,” Grimes says.
You’d think that some people would be smart enough to know this and not have to be told, but not the dummycrats, they’re like duuuhhhh, ooops, tax me!
Del
May 25th, 2010
5:19 pm
josef,
Many on here would call me anti-homosexual. I’m not, however, I don’t support repealing DADT because I think it’s a good bill and it has recently been strengthened by moving the decision making up the chain of command, so people can’t easily be outed and discharged based on revenge, personality clashes or individual dislikes. Celebrating sexuality in any form has no place in the military. On leave, liberty or weekend pass, military members can and should be able to enjoy their privacy.
DoggoneGA
May 25th, 2010
5:22 pm
“Celebrating sexuality in any form has no place in the military. ”
Because heterosexual men NEVER, EVER celebrate THEIR sexuality…now do they?
Gerald West
May 25th, 2010
5:24 pm
Good article, Jay! The reason for the awkward political moves about “don’t ask, don’t tell” is that senators from small, poor, ignorant states with 20% of the US population can block any legislation by threatening a filibuster.
It’s all a way of getting around the stupid provisions of the military code of justice. That bit of nonsense was authored by Jesse Helms and the like many years ago. It makes homosexuality, as well as some intimate acts between man and wife, a criminal, court-martial offense.
Sex between husband and wife, in the missionary position, is the only sexual contact permitted in the military code.
Leave it to Congress and politicians to dance around an issue instead of tackling it directly. That’s how we got a 6,000 page federal tax code that doesn’t produce nearly enough revenue to cover government expenses.
josef nix
May 25th, 2010
5:25 pm
DEl
One’s homosexuality or heterosexuality should never have been at issue from the get-go. Personal conduct is and should be. Sauce for the goose, sauce for the gander. DADT is wrong for one simple reason, it applies only to one segment of the military. That flies in the face of the whole concept of equality.
@@
“I dare say that Obama may be talking about plugging a various assortment of holes.”
And you know what I think about that… ISH
Saul Good
May 25th, 2010
5:26 pm
Pogo…you’re ABSOLUTELY correct… our federal government may have a HUGE military, and lots of other costly things we citizens have financed…but somehow the “Mile Deep Oil Well Patch-Kit” was something it does not have. I know we had one under Bush and Cheney (haliburton)…but I guess they took it with them when they left the WH for their mansions and country clubs.
Too bad we didn’t elect McCain and Palin…SURELY Sarah (I Quit!) Palin would have been able to solve this problem with her oil industry know how! That’s why I’ve seen them BOTH offer their suggestions into HOW to plug the hole! I mean…Sarah could have sent hubby down there with his monkey wrench and a roll of duct tape… 10 minutes and he’d have had the job done.
josef nix
May 25th, 2010
5:27 pm
West
Small ignorant states? Maine? New Jersey? California?