The abuse of heavenly prayer for earth-bound politics
Last week, as the Texas Board of Education prepared to finalize controversial new textbook standards, board member Cynthia Dunbar was asked to offer the opening prayer.
Here’s what she said:
“Most gracious heavenly Father. We come before you today, and ask that you grant to us the ability not to be anxious for the future, wisdom and understanding for the day, and hearts of gratitude for our past. As we look to our past to guide us, let us reflect on the convictions of those who have gone before us. I believe that nobody can look to the history of our country without realizing that the Good Book and the spirit of the Savior have from the beginning been our guiding geniuses. Whether we look to the first charter of Virginia, or the charter of New England or the Charter of Massachusetts Bay, or the Fundamental Orders of Connecticut, the same objective is present: a Christian land governed by Christian principles.”
I believe the entire Bill of Rights came into being because of the knowledge our forefathers had of the Bible and their belief in it. Freedom of belief, of expression, of assembly, of petition, the dignity of the individual, the sanctity of the home, equal justice under the law, and the reservation of powers to the people. I like to believe we are living today in the spirit of the Christian religion. I like also to believe that as long as we do so, no great harm can come to our country. All this I pray in the name of my lord and savior, Jesus Christ.”
When I came to Georgia 20 years ago, I found the practice of opening almost every governmental meeting with prayer a little startling. I had worked as a journalist in every other section of the country, and had never seen it done so often. Even subcommittee meetings at the state Legislature are often begun with an invitation to pray.
Most of the time, the prayers amount to pleas for wisdom and guidance in decision-making, and only the eager-to-be-offended could find much to criticize. Occasionally, prayer leaders become much more specific and fervent, for example pledging all in attendance to obey the teachings of Jesus Christ in how they vote. That’s more troubling.
You are, after all, speaking to an audience of diverse beliefs, not to a congregation of the same-minded. A citizen should not be compelled to take part in religious activities contrary to his or her beliefs as a price for participating in government. All are supposed to stand on level ground in that setting.
And once in a while, you’ll get somebody who really abuses the privilege and uses the prayer to make explicitly political statements, as Dunbar did last week.
Let’s side aside the political and historical content of Dunbar’s prayer, which is of course highly debatable in its own right. What I find more outrageous is her decision to smuggle that content into the form of a prayer that others in attendance were required to listen to silently, heads bowed, as if in agreement, with no dissent allowed.
She was not using the prayer to talk to God, which ought to be its purpose; she was using it to tell others what God would say to them if He was there.
Personally, I find it highly offensive to watch people place their own political viewpoints into the mouth of God, in effect turning God into their personal sock puppet. Whatever your concept of a Supreme Being, you cheapen it by drafting Him as a megaphone for your own political views, and to do so in that kind of setting.
Government and religion are each very powerful in its own realm, and if allowed to join in mutual purpose they constitute an overpowering force that inevitably, always tries to sweep away all dissenting views. Dunbar speaks fervently about the lessons of the past; the lessons of the past in that regard are distressingly clear, as our Founding Fathers knew from direct and recent experience.
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832 comments Add your comment
DoggoneGA
May 24th, 2010
10:38 am
“It was to keep the state out of religion, SAWB”
And I don’t agree. I think it was both. To keep the government from dictating religion, and to keep religion from dictating government.
SAWB
May 24th, 2010
10:38 am
Jay, sorry if I sounded dissenting in my previous post.
@@
May 24th, 2010
10:38 am
The reality is – there is no way to make everybody happy, and never will be.
BINGO!
Some folks go thru life believing they have what it takes to make others happy. The truth of the matter is that no one, can guarantee another person’s happiness…they can just look good trying.
I’ve known poor folks that were happy regardless of their circumstances. I’ve known wealthy folks who were miserable in spite of their circumstances.
It’s up to the individual. You’re either happy or you aren’t.
I’m walking off the field of today’s game.
md
May 24th, 2010
10:39 am
usuk,
Human nature dictates that even the meek will claim it – especially if it’s free.
Saul Good
May 24th, 2010
10:40 am
SAWB: Yeah….only those who “pray” that is the true meaning.
There are many letters written by our founding fathers both before and after our nation was founded that make their views on religion quite clear. Just more of what you don’t WANT to believe…
Mick
May 24th, 2010
10:41 am
The age of reason, the enlightenment, the renaissance were all responses to the dark ages when religion ruled europe. Separation of church and state, while not explicitly mentioned in the constitution, has been guiding this nation successfully for the past two hundred plus years. It’s like someone said, I don’t want the bill of rights posted in my church and I don’t want the ten commandments posted in my courts. Keep religion out of gov’t, period. Boycott all textbooks from texas and buy textbooks only from california, besides they need the money.
USinUK
May 24th, 2010
10:41 am
md – 10:39 – to quote Sting, “what good is a used-up world, and how could it be worth having?” … but, if it’s freee …. hmmmm …
AmVet
May 24th, 2010
10:41 am
At this point in the game, the power/stranglehold of the church over society is on its way out.
We do not bow down to any of your gods.
And we will no longer be made to feel inferior for it.
If you cannot accept that, tough…
As for the “separation of church and state”?
The christofrauds have made it their business to become intimately involved in politics. Uusally through shadowy organizations with some cryptic number to identify their tax free status.
The solution? As they are already heavily de facto involved in every level of governance, just tax them like everyone else. OR completely eliminate these organizations. One or the other.
If they insist on being spiritual “advisers” inside of the government’s inner sanctums, let the free ride end and make the mooches pay for the bounty that America gives them just like the rest of us…
Outhouse GoKart
May 24th, 2010
10:41 am
The meek will be the first in line to take advantage of our wonderful new free HCare benefits.
Southern Comfort
May 24th, 2010
10:43 am
How about something critical of; say, overpaid school board superintendents in poor performing metro counties? How about three of the four highest paid superintendents being from predominantly Democratic leaning Dekalb, Clayton and Fulton counties?
Talk about spin. You failed to mention that #1 on the list was from Gwinnett County.
@@
Historical evidence militates against the view that those who formulated the fundamental documents of American government were Christians. To the contrary, not a few who wrote and signed the Declaration of Independence, the Articles of Confederation and the U. S. Constitution were Deists, Theists and Freemasons. Webster’s Dictionary defines “theism” and “deism”:
Theism – “belief in the existence of a god or gods; specif: belief in the existence of one God viewed as the creative source of man and the world who transcends yet is immanent in the world.”
Deism – “a movement or system of thought advocating natural religions based on human reason rather than revelation, emphasizing morality, and in the 18th century denying the interference of the Creator with the laws of the universe.”
Personally, I think that the whole “founded on Christian beliefs” argument is misplaced. I believe this country was founded on a monotheistic set of beliefs. If the former were true, the Founding Fathers would have made Christianity the religion of the new country. If you have many different belief systems, it is possible to find commonalities in them all. I think that is partly where the “E Pluribus Unum” comes from. They realized that out of the many different belief systems that were brought to the new world, they all shared the belief in one god.
Gale
May 24th, 2010
10:43 am
Wouldn’t it be interesting if we could get a glimpse of what our current day politicians really believe instead of their public speeches designed to convince the masses to vote for them; speeches only the naive believe to be truth.
Paulo977
May 24th, 2010
10:43 am
godless
heathen
re: treatment of slaves and Natives by Christian pioneers …Indeed , indeed and now the same desire echoed in the chant “We want our country back” to the good ol’Christian days before Civil Rights !!
SAWB
May 24th, 2010
10:43 am
DoggoneGA, you are a perfect example of someone who has perverted the orignal meaning. The same with the right to bear arms. Who wrote the Constitution and under what circumstances and pretenses was it written? You really have to think about that. As great and as smart is they were, too many people seem to think our forefathers had complete Godly wisdom. However, they were pretty mad when they drew up the Constitution. They wanted people to have guns to protect themselves from a tyrannical government. They did not want the government to say “You are all now members of the Church of USA”.
md
May 24th, 2010
10:44 am
“Scout…it was MEN who “created” YOUR god (and all other gods) in the first place.”
Saul – and the fallacy of your argument is that you can not prove this either.
It is just another “belief”.
Kamchak
May 24th, 2010
10:44 am
Politicking is what happens when three or more people get involved in any decision–playground, elections. boardroom meeting or in this case school board meeting. You can no more stop the human animal from politicking than you can stop him from copulating, and probably shouldn’t (cribbed from R.A. Heinlein).
Praying for anything other than understanding, wisdom or forgiveness in front of a group of people is the same as politicking, in this case, a tacit lobbying effort invoking God.
I haven’t been to church in a number of years, but the last one I attended, there was a family that never missed an opportunity to stand in front of a group of people and pray that God would provide them with things. Lo and behold they were surprised when these very things were delivered, always with the phrase “See, prayer works—the Lord did provide,” and I always wanted to say “What else did you expect? You politicked to groups of people and begged for stuff.”
SAWB
May 24th, 2010
10:45 am
Saul Good, for every one statement you can find. I can find two more that enforce my viewpoint.
Southern Comfort
May 24th, 2010
10:45 am
Forgot the link for my second quote: http://watch.pair.com/mason.html
Time to run some errands, see y’all this afternoon.
DannyX
May 24th, 2010
10:46 am
Dear Lord, thank you for providing us with a $664 billion a year defense budget. Shock and awe was for you. Please keep the liberals from expanding health care. Please keep your Christian immigrants south of the border. May you continue to make the rich richer and the poor poorer.
Amen
Outhouse GoKart
May 24th, 2010
10:47 am
And the meek shall inherit the earth….
We’ve taken care of everything
The words your read, the songs you sing
The pictures that give pleasure to your eye
It’s one for all, none for one
We work together common sons
Never need to wonder how or why
We are the priests of the temples of Syrinx
Our great computers fill the hallowed halls
We are the priests of the temples of Syrinx
All the gifts of life are held within our walls
Look around this world we’ve made
Equality our stock and trade
Come and join the brotherhood of man
Oh what a nice contented world
Let the banners be unfurled
Hold the Red Star proudly high in hand
We are the priests of the temples of Syrinx
Our great computers fill the hallowed halls
We are the priests of the temples of Syrinx
All the gifts of life are held within our walls
RB from Gwinnett
May 24th, 2010
10:47 am
Another episode of our weekly Christian bashing from the “tolerant” liberals I see. Nice Jay.
Try remaining seated in the press corp when the president enters the room and see how quickly you’re invited to leave. Some things you do out of respect and tradition, you know. If the tradition under the gold dome is to stand during the prayer, you should. You don’t have to pray, but standing in honor of the tradition is expected.
But then you couldn’t bash Christians I guess?
redneckbluedog
May 24th, 2010
10:47 am
Dear Lord,
Please give us the strength to enact our political philosophies on the entire world, and the strength to smite whomever might disagree with us, much like Adolph Hitler and the Taliban.
Amen.
Scout
May 24th, 2010
10:47 am
PTL, Inc.:
Depends on whether or not you are forgiven.
USinUK:
Sorry, your quote is again not in the Constitution.
The First Amendment in its original intent only meant no “State sponsored” religion (with government tax support, means tests, governmental authority, etc.). That why Jefferson wrote his reply to the question posed by the Danbury Baptists …….. who were tired of being put in jail for perfomring marriage ceremonies as they were not part of the State sponsored church of Virginia (The Church of England). It was never meant to keep all religion out of government.
We are free to change that today if we want to but to ignore the original intent and the fact that religion at that time ran all through the government is the heighth of ignorance and revisionist history.
SAWB
May 24th, 2010
10:49 am
Scout 10:47, well said.
Mick
May 24th, 2010
10:49 am
“render unto caesar what is caesar’s, render unto god what is god’s”. There is not a better example of separation of church and state.
John K
May 24th, 2010
10:49 am
Sometimes I think “ok, go ahead, give them what they want, let’s go all the way and mix religion and government.” Can you imagine, everyone thinks their particular brand of Christianity will be the chosen one, can you imagine the infighting between Baptists/Mormons/Catholics/Non-Denominational/etc.? It’d be delightful to watch.
Not to mention the government regulation of religion.
DoggoneGA
May 24th, 2010
10:50 am
“DoggoneGA, you are a perfect example of someone who has perverted the orignal meaning. The same with the right to bear arms.”
This may come as a BIG surprise to you, but I agree with the Supreme Court that the provision about bearing arms is intended to protect the right of the INDIVIDUAL to bear arms. But, just as with any other right, I think each individual must prove their ability to do so responsibly.
” Who wrote the Constitution and under what circumstances and pretenses was it written? You really have to think about that.”
I do think about that.
” As great and as smart is they were, too many people seem to think our forefathers had complete Godly wisdom. However, they were pretty mad when they drew up the Constitution. They wanted people to have guns to protect themselves from a tyrannical government.”
I have no argument with that.
” They did not want the government to say “You are all now members of the Church of USA”.”
and they did not want any church to say “you must all be believers to be protected by the government”
Scout
May 24th, 2010
10:50 am
Danny X:
Regarding your quip about our defense budget to fight evil in the world;
Revelation 19:
“11I saw heaven standing open and there before me was a white horse, whose rider is called Faithful and True. With justice he judges and makes war. 12His eyes are like blazing fire, and on his head are many crowns. He has a name written on him that no one knows but he himself. 13He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God. 14The armies of heaven were following him, riding on white horses and dressed in fine linen, white and clean. 15Out of his mouth comes a sharp sword with which to strike down the nations. “He will rule them with an iron scepter.”[a] He treads the winepress of the fury of the wrath of God Almighty. 16On his robe and on his thigh he has this name written:
KING OF KINGS AND LORD OF LORDS. “
PTL, Inc.
May 24th, 2010
10:50 am
Depends on whether or not you are forgiven.
Conditional! You just gotta love it, huh.
DannyX
May 24th, 2010
10:51 am
Hey Scout, where exactly does Jesus give you that waiver to go out and proudly kill people?
Scout
May 24th, 2010
10:51 am
SAWB:
Thank you but it won’t change blind ignorance or those revisionists who bury their heads in the sand.
SAWB
May 24th, 2010
10:52 am
DoggoneGA, I don’t disagree with anything you said in your 10:50.
PTL, Inc.
May 24th, 2010
10:52 am
So many conservatives yearning for a theocracy. Strange. It must be something in the water.
Scout
May 24th, 2010
10:53 am
DannyX:
If you’re one of those people who would let a mudering rapist come into your house and have their way with you family without doing anything or killing them if necessary that’s up to you.
Trying to explain anything Biblical to you is beyond my power or desire. Have a good day.
Normal
May 24th, 2010
10:54 am
WWJK?
DoggoneGA
May 24th, 2010
10:55 am
“I don’t disagree with anything you said in your 10:50″
thank you
Outhouse GoKart
May 24th, 2010
10:55 am
Well I ve got a little piece of news for all of ya. Only the Baptists are going to heaven. For the rest of ya its the HellTrain.
SAWB
May 24th, 2010
10:55 am
Scout, it is from those new textbooks they have been reading in the last 20 years or so!
USinUK
May 24th, 2010
10:56 am
Scout – “Sorry, your quote is again not in the Constitution”
no, but it vividly illustrates framers’ intent – 1) that they DID desire a separation between the 2 entities and 2) that their reasons were because state-sponsored religions were the root of many wars and acts of atrocities throughout history
DannyX
May 24th, 2010
10:56 am
Answer the question Scout! Where does Jesus give you the waiver to proudly join an army that orders you to kill people?
Kamchak
May 24th, 2010
10:58 am
Hey Scout, where exactly does Jesus give you that waiver to go out and proudly kill people?
It’s OK if you’re scared spit-less as he illustrates at 10:53.
Outhouse GoKart
May 24th, 2010
10:58 am
The song by Eddie Mnney, “Two tickets to paradise” was about he and his songwriting buddy selling their souls for fame fortune and rocknroll.
In other words Eddie has two tickets to hell.
Scout
May 24th, 2010
10:59 am
“OFF TOPIC #1″
Headline: “(CNN) – Democratic Senate candidate and Connecticut Attorney General Richard Blumenthal has apologized for misstating his military record during the Vietnam War.
“I have made mistakes and I am sorry. I truly regret offending anyone,” Blumenthal said in a statement sent to the Hartford Courant Sunday night. “I will always champion the cause of Connecticut’s and our nation’s veterans.
“Blumenthal acknowledged last Tuesday that he has not always accurately described his military service during the Vietnam War.”
Nope ……….. not good enough ………RESIGN from the Senate race please.
Dirty Man
May 24th, 2010
10:59 am
I worked for a company that prayed before everything they did. They prayed for goods sales and favorable decisions when they got sued. We even had employees who thanked God for giving us the CEO we had! Being an atheist, I never bowed my head or any of the other things one is supposed to do when praying.
Although I worked harder than most of my co-workers I was passed over for promotions. It may have been because I satisfied with the status quo, or it was obvious that I didn’t want to contribute my talents to a bunch of religious fanatics. Mainly, the job payed pretty good, so I didn’t quit until I saved enough money. If there is an afterlife, there is a very warm place waiting for those people. Same with anyone who uses religion to advance a personal agenda.
Like the school boards and the churches, after every prayer, the company I worked for ripped people off for hundreds of millions of dollars. Conning people into thinking they will get everlasting life has a great record of procuring sales and money. It’s also an excellent rallying cry for war. Why is it I, as an atheist, am the one who seems to be bothered by these facts?
md
May 24th, 2010
10:59 am
“Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof.”
Now, the question is – what is the definition of “religion”, for it is basically a set of beliefs, and many folks have a tendency to equate it with THEIR belief.
Hence the problem.
Confused
May 24th, 2010
10:59 am
Scout,
do you believe in defending our country with the military? ‘Thou shalt not Kill’ is the comandment yes? Not ‘thou shall not kill unless in self defense,’ Pesonally I go with man’s laws on this one.
Outhouse GoKart
May 24th, 2010
11:00 am
Agreed Scout. Blumenthal made no mistake. He intentionally lied.
SAWB
May 24th, 2010
11:00 am
USinUK, the forefathers only wished to worship the way they wanted to worship. Early Americans used religion as a tool to take all the lands of the USA through our Manifest Destiny. These early founders would have shot a Native American in cold blood. They would have also hung homosexuals instantly.
Byron Mathison Kerr
May 24th, 2010
11:00 am
People create God in their own image — thus becoming egomaniacs with whom little reason can be achieved.
Soothsayer
May 24th, 2010
11:00 am
OMG a religious discussion! See ya later!
Outhouse GoKart
May 24th, 2010
11:01 am
People create God in their own image — thus becoming Obamanics with whom little reason can be achieved.
DoggoneGA
May 24th, 2010
11:01 am
“RESIGN from the Senate race please.”
Obviously you cannot follow your leader in forgiveness
Scout
May 24th, 2010
11:01 am
USinUK:
Exactly! Government “in” relgion vs. religion “in” government are two different things. The former is prohibited ……… the latter is not.
I’m sorry if you can’t understand that concept/balance set up by our founding fathers.
Outhouse GoKart
May 24th, 2010
11:01 am
Jump in SS…its a freeforall.
Outhouse GoKart
May 24th, 2010
11:03 am
RESIGN from the Senate race please.”
Obviously you cannot follow your leader in forgiveness
YEA…we know they are all sorry…sorry as $#!*.
“We can rebuild him…make him better than he was before…”
Nah…toss them in societys dustbin.
md
May 24th, 2010
11:03 am
md – 10:39 – to quote Sting, “what good is a used-up world, and how could it be worth having?” … but, if it’s freee …. hmmmm …
usuk – one mans junk is another mans treasure.
USinUK
May 24th, 2010
11:03 am
SAWB – “it is from those new textbooks they have been reading in the last 20 years or so!
you mean like … actual quotes from the authors of the constitution? or do those just not count?
“I am for freedom of religion and against all maneuvers to bring about a legal ascendancy of one sect over another.” Thomas Jefferson
“And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in shewing that religion & Govt will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together” James Madison
“Persecution is not an original feature in any religion; but it is always the strongly-marked feature of all law-religions, or religions established by law. Take away the law-establishment, and every religion re-assumes its original benignity” Thomas Paine
and that’s just a few …
Smokewagon
May 24th, 2010
11:04 am
When a conservative disagrees with something they just choose not to do it but if a liberal disagrees they want legislation outlawing it. I wonder why the jails are so full?
Outhouse GoKart
May 24th, 2010
11:04 am
Sting is somewhat like Boner…Worthless.
USinUK
May 24th, 2010
11:04 am
“Government “in” relgion vs. religion “in” government are two different things. The former is prohibited ……… the latter is not”
so, I’m assuming you’d have no problem with Islam in the US government.
excellent.
Scout
May 24th, 2010
11:05 am
Confused:
Of course I do. “When civilized man can no longer stand the horror of war and refuses to fight, then he will surely be killed or enslaved by the uncivilized who can.”
Doggone/GA:
Forgiveness and being allowed to run for the Senate are two different things.
For example: A Felon can be forgiven by God and man but they still don’t get to vote or carry a weapon.
Do you want to change that too?
USinUK
May 24th, 2010
11:05 am
OGK – 11:04 – Soul Cages is one of my favorite albums – when he isn’t whittering on about love/romance, Sting can actually write some great stuff.
DoggoneGA
May 24th, 2010
11:05 am
“Thou shalt not Kill’ is the comandment yes? ”
No, it isn’t. The commandement is “You shall not murder”
Bosch
May 24th, 2010
11:06 am
Smokewagon,
“When a conservative disagrees with something they just choose not to do it but if a liberal disagrees they want legislation outlawing it.”
I’m gonna call the bullsh*t card on that – it sure as hell ain’t liberals who are wanting to amend the Constitution to prevent gay marriage – reverse Roe v. Wade – and not allowing people to vote on whether or not to sale alcohol on Sundays.
md
May 24th, 2010
11:06 am
“RESIGN from the Senate race please.”
Obviously you cannot follow your leader in forgiveness”
Personally, I see it as a lowering of standards vs forgiveness.
But what’s new.
Bosch
May 24th, 2010
11:07 am
““When civilized man can no longer stand the horror of war and refuses to fight, then he will surely be killed or enslaved by the uncivilized who can.””
I think Scout has that tattooed on his ass.
Rightwing Troll
May 24th, 2010
11:07 am
“Wouldn’t it be interesting if we could get a glimpse of what our current day politicians really believe instead of their public speeches designed to convince the masses to vote for them; speeches only the naive believe to be truth.”
We can. Just look up quotes from Ralph Reed in regards to the Abramof “K Street” scandal. You will see it plain as day.
Bosch
May 24th, 2010
11:08 am
Rightwing Troll,
Or they could read that book “The Family.” It’s spelled out pretty plain there too.
DoggoneGA
May 24th, 2010
11:09 am
“Do you want to change that too?”
Actually, yes I would. As long as a felon is serving his sentence, then he is bound by the restrictions place on him BY that sentence. But when his “debt to society” is paid, he should resume the full rights and privileges…and responsibilities…of citizenship.
USinUK
May 24th, 2010
11:09 am
Bosch – “I think Scout has that tattooed on his ass”
well, since that’s the general viscinity of his head …
Confused
May 24th, 2010
11:09 am
Im in trouble anyway…
But the seventh day is a sabbath to the Lord your God; you shall not do any work—you, or your son or your daughter, or your male or female slave, or your ox or your donkey, or any of your livestock, or the resident alien in your towns, so that your male and female slave may rest as well as you.
I dont have any slaves, male or female, but ive worked on a sunday. guess im going to hell.
Scout
May 24th, 2010
11:10 am
USinUK :
From a secular standpoint no. That’s why Imams have prayed before Congress and we have Islamic military chaplains, etc.
From a Christian standpoint yes. They are a false, dangerous religion.
“I am the Way, the Truth and the Life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.”
ADAMS ON ISLAM
“In the seventh century of the Christian era a wandering Arab, of the lineage of Hagar, the Egyptian, combing the powers of transcendent genius with the preternatural energy of a fanatic and the fraudulent spirit of an imposter, proclaimed himself as a messenger from heaven, and spread desolation and delusion over an extensive portion of the earth.”
“Adopting, from the sublime conception of the Mosaic law, the doctrine of one omnipotent God, he connected indissolubly with it the audacious falsehood, that he was himself his prophet and apostle. Adopting from the new revelation of Jesus, the faith and hope of immortal life, and of future retribution, he humbled it to the dust by adapting all the rewards and sanctions of his religion to the gratification of the sexual passion.”
“He poisoned the sources of human felicity at the fountain, by degrading the condition of the female sex, and the allowance of polygamy; and he declared undistinguishing and exterminating war as part of his religion against all the rest of mankind. The essence of his doctrine was violence and lust; to exalt the brutal over the spiritual part of human nature.”
“Between these two religions, thus contrasted in the characters, a war of more than twelve hundred years has already raged. That war is yet flagrant; nor can it cease but by the extincture of that imposture, which has been permitted by Providence to prolong the degeneracy of man. While the merciless and dissolute are encouraged to furnish motives to human action, there never can be peace on earth and good will toward men. The hand of Ishmael will be against every man, and every man’s hand against him.”
John Quincy Adams, 1830
John K
May 24th, 2010
11:10 am
Exactly Bosch, conservatives want to legislate their personal morality for everyone.
Confused
May 24th, 2010
11:10 am
or is it saturady? i get confused when different religions tell me different days.
SAWB
May 24th, 2010
11:10 am
I love this one from John Adams, USinUK…
Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
Saul Good
May 24th, 2010
11:13 am
Scout @ 10:47… so in that case…I guess it’s okay to have the Muslim and Hindu religion involved in our government as well…correct? Because if we go with what YOU stated above…those religions are free to be intertwined with our government as well as ALL of the cults of the world…because if it’s ONLY “YOUR” brand of the cult of christianity… please show me where it states that.
Do not kill
Do not steal
All the rest of your human created “commandments are simply what your preachers and pastors do daily behind your backs (after they’ve deposited your check…the way you “pay” for your ticket to heaven and that country club that excludes everyone but the other cult members who believe EXACTLY the same version of the fable that you do)…
Scout
May 24th, 2010
11:13 am
I see some of you liberals have resorted to the same intolerant name calling again. You always do. So infantile.
DoggoneGA:
Does that include being able to have a weapon?
Bosch:
I actually found that written on the blackboard in a UGA class during the “May Day” demonstrations of 1970. I was the only one who showed up for class as the other students were playing their childish games.
Cornelius
May 24th, 2010
11:13 am
For the rest of ya its the HellTrain
I must take issue with that.
Soothsayer
May 24th, 2010
11:15 am
“Religion consists in a set of things which the average man thinks he believes, and wishes he was certain.”
—Mark Twain
Scout: when the only tool you have is a hammer, the whole world begins to look like a nail to you.
Bosch
May 24th, 2010
11:15 am
“You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the Lord your God, for the Lord will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.”
Exodus 2:17
Peter Haskett
May 24th, 2010
11:15 am
Those of you who think the 2nd Amendment was drafted so the People could protect themselves from the government need to do a little more research. The 2nd Amendment was, in fact, added by Hamilton as a sweetener to persuade the southern states to ratify the Constitution. The convention needed 2/3rds of the states to ratify, and until the 2nd amendment was added, they were not getting them. The southern states needed militias to enforce slavery, as there was a continuous threat of revolt. The slavery militias were so important that the southern militias didn’t even fight for independence or in 1812.
Google: Secret History of the Second Amendment. This fact is not in controversy, except among the uneducated, gun show crowd.
USinUK
May 24th, 2010
11:15 am
SAWB – well, gee … if you like that John Adams, then you’ll LOVE this:
“This would be the best of all possible worlds, if there were no religion in it”
“That the desires of the majority of the people are often for injustice and inhumanity against the minority, is demonstrated by every page of the history of the whole world”
(which is why government & religion should never – EVER – mix)
md
May 24th, 2010
11:15 am
“All the rest of your human created “commandments”
Got a link for that one??
Bosch
May 24th, 2010
11:15 am
Scout,
I really don’t care where you found it – it’s stupid.
SAWB
May 24th, 2010
11:16 am
Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.
Come on ya’ll let’s discuss this John Adams quote? He seems a bit prophetic to me.
Scout
May 24th, 2010
11:16 am
“OFF TOPIC #2″
Heads up! Bulletin from “Private” Obama ………….
“U.S. military told to get ready in Korea standoff”
“Obama orders commanders to prepare ‘to deter future aggression’ ………… “
jt
May 24th, 2010
11:17 am
Laugh all you want about the blood of the lamb or the world on the back of a turtle or the 52 virgins,
but
This following belief is absurd,……..———————-And extremely dangerous————-
“The consequence of this, morally, is that the individual is of less significance than the state. The individual’s empirical, day-to-day interests are of a lower moral order than the state’s universal, world-historical interests”“this final end has supreme right against the individual, whose supreme duty is to be a member of the state.”[94] Duty, as we have learned from Kant and Fichte, always trumps personal interests and inclinations.”
Statism. A truely evil religion.
DoggoneGA
May 24th, 2010
11:17 am
“Does that include being able to have a weapon?”
Certainly…but please keep in mind that I’ve already stated “But, just as with any other right, I think each individual must prove their ability to do so responsibly”
USinUK
May 24th, 2010
11:17 am
Scout – “From a secular standpoint no. That’s why Imams have prayed before Congress and we have Islamic military chaplains, etc.”
thanks for making my point for me … you don’t mind CHRISTIAN beliefs IN GOVERNMENT, but you don’t want any other religious beliefs …
and THAT, my friend, is why the FFs set up the separation between the two.
Confused
May 24th, 2010
11:17 am
Off to lunch, when I get back I look forward to all of the comments from those supporting the commandments letting me know that they have never worked on the Sabbath, and that our country still following that commandment. Whichever day its on.
jt
May 24th, 2010
11:18 am
Yet mere membership as a matter of duty is not enough for Hegel, given the grandeur of the state’s divine historical purpose: “One must worship the state as a terrestrial divinity.”[95]
In such worship, Hegel believed, we finds our real freedom. For ultimately, we individuals are but aspects of the Absolute Spirit, and in so relating to it we are relating to ourselves. “For Law is the objectivity of Spirit; volition in its true form. Only that will which obeys law, is free; for it obeys itself—it is independent and so free.”[96] Freedom is thus the individual’s absolute submission to and worship of the state.
USinUK
May 24th, 2010
11:18 am
Scout – 11:16 – let’s see … it looks like NK sunk a SK ship … what, exactly, is your problem with ordering American troops to stand ready in case of further aggression???
Scout
May 24th, 2010
11:18 am
Bosch: Of course you feel that way. You’re a liberal kept by better men than yourself.
USin UK: You are still in Great Britain …….. right ?
Bosch
May 24th, 2010
11:20 am
Scout,
Kept? That’s even lamer than the saying.
Saul Good
May 24th, 2010
11:20 am
Confused…don’t you know that certain “Commandments” are OPTIONAL?
(it usually means you just have to write bigger checks to the pedophile priests and pastors so that they’ll promise to keep your membership to the country club up in the sky open for ya’).
Scout
May 24th, 2010
11:21 am
Doggone/GA:
Good. At least you are consistent.
How do you feel about the new Supreme Court ruling keeping sex offenders in jail after they have served their full sentence ?
USinUK:
I will feel much better and safer after you enlist. Will the Royal Marines take you?
md
May 24th, 2010
11:21 am
“Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other.”
I have to disagree – I “believe” one only needs a sense of right and wrong, and one does not necessarily need a religion to have that.
I am not overly religious, but I do believe it to be wrong to end the “life” of the most innocent of all life forms – but others have created definitions that counter that belief – it is what it is.
SAWB
May 24th, 2010
11:21 am
USinUK, look around at our country. The further we stray from the wisdom and morality of God. The worse it gets. That is all the proof I need. This country was blessed, but it is now quickly going down hill. The sad part is that it is still the best place in the world to live. However, I promise that as more immorality takes hold in our country, the quicker we will fall.
BUT…we knew through Christ that this was going to happen. Us Christians, we fight against it knowing it is a losing battle but we still try to hold on.
USinUK
May 24th, 2010
11:21 am
Scout – “You are still in Great Britain …….. right ?”
I know, I know … you wish I was closer … you want me near …
Scout
May 24th, 2010
11:21 am
Bosch:
Maybe ………. but you know it’s true.
Kamchak
May 24th, 2010
11:22 am
I see some of you liberals have resorted to the same intolerant name calling again. You always do. So infantile.
“Intolerant”—blah blah blah
“Name calling”—blah blah blah
“Infantile”—blah blah blah
And you are here fear mongering, like you always do.
Speaking of intolerant name calling, equating homosexuals to pedophiles is both name calling and intolerant.
Glass house, meet stone.