Eleven believed dead and oil sheen spreading in Gulf
A deep-water oil well that exploded earlier in the week sunk into the Gulf of Mexico Thursday, taking with it any remaining hope that 11 workers still missing in the blast might be rescued. Like the coal miners of West Virginia, oil field hands do tough, dirty, dangerous work so the rest of us can enjoy the comforts of home and the easy convenience of our automobiles.
With a sheen of oil already one mile wide and five miles long and growing, the collapse of the rig also sunk guarantees heard often during the “drill here, drill now” days of the 2008 presidential campaign that such accidents just don’t happen anymore, that the days when offshore oil drilling posed a danger to the environment were well behind us thanks to new technology.
Instead, officials are warning about “potentially the biggest blowout of an oil and gas well in the Gulf of Mexico in 30 years.”
“I think it certainly has the potential to be a major spill,” David Rainey, a vice president for Gulf of Mexico exploration for BP, which was leasing the rig, said at a news conference.
Coast Guard helicopters, planes and patrol boats were in the final 12 hours of search-and-rescue efforts for the missing workers, said Rear Adm. Mary E. Landry, the commander of the Coast Guard’s Eighth District. She said interviews with some of the 115 survivors had indicated to officials that the 11 who were missing may have been “in the vicinity of the explosion,” a view echoed separately in interviews with reporters.
“As time passes,” she said, “the probability of success in locating the 11 missing persons decreases.”
The sinking of the rig, meanwhile, left the scope of the disaster troublingly uncertain. Admiral Landry and officials from BP and Transocean, the Swiss company that owned the giant rig, could not say with certainty whether oil and gas were still emanating from the well underwater, though Adrian Rose, a vice president at Transocean, said the response team “was not able to stem the flow of hydrocarbons” before the rig sank…
The potential for environmental disaster from the spill would be greatest if the oil were to reach the Louisiana coast, some 50 miles away.
Fearing a potential environmental disaster, BP announced Thursday that it was dispatching a flotilla of more than 30 vessels capable of skimming more than 170,000 barrels of oil a day to protect sea lanes and wildlife in the area of the sunken platform.
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202 comments Add your comment
md
April 23rd, 2010
1:57 pm
“he was never going to be an instrument of hope and change in any meaningful way fior the bottom 100 million Americans.”
Novel idea – maybe the 100 million Americans at the bottom can utilize the already paid for education system and better themselves. All that is needed is the will.
Soothsayer
April 23rd, 2010
1:59 pm
“Allright AmVet and mm, the ball goes in YOUR courts, now, too. What new energy do your support and where do you propose to put it?”
The only energy source with possibility to supplant fossils fuels is solar.
As I have posted on this site over and over again, the amount of energy contained in just 40 minutes of sunlight is equal to all of the energy used on the planet for an entire year. The amount of energy in just 7 days of sunlight is equal to all of the proven reserves of fossil fuels now know to exist in the entire World.
The fact that environmentalists object to solar plants in the Mojave or wind farms of the coast of MA shouldn’t be a deterrent. There are plenty of parking lots for solar plants and plenty of other locations for wind farms.
Paul
April 23rd, 2010
1:59 pm
sfd
No prob. I do plenty of that, myself. There’s always discussion and clarification.
“But aren’t the people pushing the hardest to put up these wind farms progressive as well?”
I’m glad you posted that. ’cause it’s something that gets me. Progressive AND conservative environmentalists fight to get sustainable, renewable energy sources going. And the ones who blocked it, in this case, are NIMBYs. Same’s true with the solar collectors cited earlier in the Mojave. I saw the leader of the group interviewed. Doesn’t matter it’s hundreds of miles from anywhere in bleak areas. To him it’s ‘natural’ and ‘pristine.’
I’m starting to get on a roll, but I’ll dial it back. I grew up in Calif. And what I’ve seen progress is lots of growth – but take water from elsewhere. Lots of energy needs – but stop nuclear power and let the power generation come from other states. Just an awful lot of “you dirty your back yard and we’ll buy it from you, so we don’t have to be responsible for ourselves.”
Aaarghhh. (Frustration, not pirate talk).
The MA case I was needling about was a very small one years back.
I’m not surprised at self-interested environmentalists. I am surprised at the hypocritical excuses and the power they exert.
BTW – I thought of this NIMBY issue recently. We have natural gas around here. LOTS of it. Lots and lots and lots. All kinds of applications where oil’s normally used. Anyhow, a lot of NIMBY opposition’s grown up regarding wells and distribution and such. Got a call from a pollster fronting for an anti-drilling political group. I told the surprised interviewer I could not support his cause, even if one of the gas wells would be nearby my home. We gotta get away from the ME and petroleum. If that’s the inconvenience I live with, it’s small compared to the larger picture.
thomas
April 23rd, 2010
1:59 pm
Bosch, USinUK, and all you other soccer “weirdos” does the new French Soccer Team’s “injudiciousness ” carry over to the pitch? Aren’t they usually a favorite in these world cup thingies?
md
April 23rd, 2010
2:01 pm
Normal,
One would think with all the talk about hate crimes etc, these folks would be allowed to demonstrate per the first amendment, yet have them do it from a very safe distance. Ever seen how far back the protesters are at the G-8?
stands for decibels
April 23rd, 2010
2:01 pm
And his milquetoast/nonexistent approach to the problems of the poor and under-represented has been, to me, very disappointing.
AmVet, that these folks’ needs have been so woefully ignored of late was what prompted me to cast, essentially, a protest primary vote for John Edwards in ‘08, not because I thought he’d be a superer-duperer President than Hill or Barack but because keeping the race close might mean those people’s issues might actually get bumped up a level or two.
Thing is, if you read The Audacity of Hope (which I only got around to doing a few months ago) absolutely nothing that Obama’s done as President should come as any major surprise. He is by nature maddeningly even-handed and pragmatic. He is not going to huff and puff and blow anyone’s house down, or even threaten to. He seems, always, to be thinking long-term; it doesn’t mean that his staff can’t manage news cycles and respond quickly (they have, they do) but it does mean we’re not gonna get a lot of red meat tossed our way.
Yet, perhaps he may just be laying the foundation for future presidents who will be.
I suspect that’d be the plan. But you know about the best-laid ones, how they often turn out.
Union
April 23rd, 2010
2:02 pm
“Obama slams pending Ariz. immigration law”
“President Barack Obama on Thursday criticized a pending Arizona law that would make it a state crime to be in the United States illegally.”
You mean it would be illegal to be illegal?? whats the country coming to?
chuck
April 23rd, 2010
2:03 pm
Yes USUK, LET’S ignore the envirnmental impact, because it is so infinitesimally small that we CAN ignore it. I’ve seen pictures of the Alska Oil Pipeline with thousands of animals in herds grazing peacefully around it. ANWAR is essentially a WASTELAND. It carries almost NO WILDLIFE, so what are we protecting it FOR?
stands for decibels
April 23rd, 2010
2:05 pm
Progressive AND conservative environmentalists fight to get sustainable, renewable energy sources going.
I know that there are conservative environmentalists out there; it’s a shame, a tragedy, really, how the very term “environmentalist” has become so incredibly fraught with political baggage of late.
chuck
April 23rd, 2010
2:05 pm
Plus the area with the most promising oil fields, you know, the only area that they want drilling to be allowed, is like the size of a postage stamp comparitively speaking.
Soothsayer
April 23rd, 2010
2:06 pm
Seeker:
An oil platform that burned for 36 hours after a massive explosion sank into the Gulf of Mexico on Thursday, and 11 workers still missing may have been near the blast and unable to escape, officials said.
Meanwhile, the submerged well could be creating a major environmental problem, potentially spewing up to 8,000 barrels of crude oil per day, the Coast Guard said.
I posted this downstairs earlier. I had to try to find it.
md
April 23rd, 2010
2:07 pm
“President Barack Obama on Thursday criticized a pending Arizona law that would make it a state crime to be in the United States illegally.”
Bit ironic – if he was doing his job and enforcing the laws of the Country, no State would have to bother with such a law.
Soothsayer
April 23rd, 2010
2:10 pm
I find it impossible to believe that a drilling platform that burned for 36 hours and sank is not leaking oil at the wellhead. WTF was burning?
Paul
April 23rd, 2010
2:11 pm
sfd
Is there anything that’s NOT fraught with political baggage?
Union
As I understand it, police can stop anyone and ask for ID. As one who has trouble with recent court rulings that grant police a lot of leeway in when to stop and ask for ID, I like this even less. I’m pretty much of the opinion if the authorities don’t have cause to believe a crime’s been or being committed they should leave you alone.
And that doesn’t mean because you look like you’re from Guatemala.
And some of you may want to think a bit before you start with the “what about airport screenings?” line……. there are some differences….
AmVet
April 23rd, 2010
2:12 pm
“Novel idea – maybe the 100 million Americans at the bottom can utilize…”
md, I’m not sure novel is the right word. /grin/
getalife
April 23rd, 2010
2:16 pm
This is funny:
http://www.breitbart.tv/teabagger-boogie-ex-geico-announcer-posts-dick-armeys-army-of-d/comment-page-7/#comment-4945661
stands for decibels
April 23rd, 2010
2:17 pm
Got a call from a pollster fronting for an anti-drilling political group.
oy. I got a call from a pollster the other week, telling me, in essence, that we’d all have ponies and supermodels if those commie county officials would just sell a local airport to some nice, private robber baron.
Funny thing is, such telemarketing approaches tend to solidify any inclination I might have had, in this case in the utter opposite direction of how it was intended.
I suspect you noted a similar effect with your anti-drilling push pollster as well.
Union
April 23rd, 2010
2:19 pm
Democrats are not real big on laws.. just increasing voter base.
Soothsayer – all me being an a$$ aside.. the metal, diesel as well as oil on the platform was burning. I know the great liberal mind of Rosie said metal couldn’t burn… but it does. The platforms have storage tanks on them as well, so that adds to the burn.
Paul
April 23rd, 2010
2:20 pm
getalife
“So far, leftist university professors have killed more people than members of the Tea Party movement.”
ZING!
md
April 23rd, 2010
2:21 pm
Am – Knowledge is power. Empowering oneself with that knowledge comes from within.
chuck
April 23rd, 2010
2:22 pm
SoCo,
I stand by my statement that the risk is STILL infinitesimally small. How many rigs are there in the gulf compared to how many YEARS they have been in operation, compared to how many have BLOWN UP?
Bosch
April 23rd, 2010
2:22 pm
thomas,
I don’t think this scandal will keep Ribery off the team, I’m more concerned with his recent red card than a scandal involving a hooker. Boys will be boys and the girl told them all she was 18 (not like I was there, of course, but that’s what the buzz is)- but other than that, those players are worth a lot of cash, and for some reason I think that will play out higher.
And yes, France finished second in the ‘06 World Cup (which they should have won, imho), but we don’t need to bring that game up because it just makes me too angry, and I’m trying to move on with my life.
Bosch
April 23rd, 2010
2:23 pm
thomas,
Oh, and kudos to you for using the word “pitch!”
Paul
April 23rd, 2010
2:25 pm
sfd
Yup.
But it was funny. Guy sounded like a college kid.
Pollster:” A gas well is planned right next to your neighborhood. It can run 24 hours a day and will increase traffic. Do you support having a gas well in your neighborhood.”
Me: “Yup.’
Pollster: “You do?!!? Why?!!?” (I don’t think that was in the script)
Me: “Because natural gas can eliminate some petroleum needs. It’s a small step, but it can grow. And I’m not much in the mood to say no to this when the option is to keep sending military to the mideast to get killed.’
Pollster: “Oh…..”
Bosch
April 23rd, 2010
2:25 pm
I never, ever get polled.
Bosch
April 23rd, 2010
2:26 pm
Paul,
That’s one of the joys of my life – to throw a telemarketer off-script.
AmVet
April 23rd, 2010
2:26 pm
md, of course.
I’m just glad those Americans at the bottom are poor and hungry because they are lazy and choose to be.
Certainly there couldn’t possibly be any exploitation or other reasons involved, in modern day America, huh? (Eye roll.)
“Democrats are not real big on laws…”
Union, again, agreed.
Especially when it comes to Wall Street and the associated 30 year corporate crime wave in America.
That is one of the innumerable reasons why they are now functionally indistinguishable from the GOP…
Bosch
April 23rd, 2010
2:27 pm
AmVet,
As I’ve always said, in a capitalistic society, there will always be poor people.
thomas
April 23rd, 2010
2:35 pm
Bosch,
come-on! Whats wrong with a good ole head-butt. The Junk Yard Dawg would have been proud!
** I understand a thing or two about soccer, believe it or not I show it to my players in clips to go over angles and spacing relationships. So sadly because it can helps me teach basketball i am forced to watch “The Beautiful Game” or so its called. I thought you would appreciate the use of pitch.
Doggone/GA
April 23rd, 2010
2:36 pm
“I never, ever get polled”
Me either…but that just MIGHT have something to do with me screening all of my calls, and not answering if it’s a pollster or an advertisement call!
stands for decibels
April 23rd, 2010
2:36 pm
But it was funny. Guy sounded like a college kid.
Mine was just a computer zombietron, “if you agree that privatizing this resource and its attendant sexual favors bestowed upon you by supermodels is a Good Idea, press 1, if you disagree, press 2…” so not nearly as much fun.
I only stayed on the line because I was interested in how they were going to spin their case.
Doggone/GA
April 23rd, 2010
2:39 pm
“As I’ve always said, in a capitalistic society, there will always be poor people”
In EVERY society
jefferson
April 23rd, 2010
2:42 pm
Not in my backyard.
Bosch
April 23rd, 2010
2:43 pm
thomas,
Weird, I’ve always thought soccer was much, much more like basketball than football – it’s basically playing basketball with your feet. But, unfortunately, because of the name, “football” most people associate it with our American version of that, and the people who coach it, if they can’t find actual soccer coaches, are football coaches instead of basketball coaches – which makes absolutely no sense to me.
Oh, there’s nothing wrong with a little head butt in my book, I wish Zidane had taken out that big Italian [word I can't type cause I KNOW Blog God won't like it].
stands for decibels
April 23rd, 2010
2:44 pm
On one level, at least AZ (and Nebraska and Oklahoma, in their own foul ways) is taking some of the heat off of GA’s rep for being Ground Zero for Teh Stoopit.
U.S. Democratic Rep. Raúl Grijalva is closing his Tucson and Yuma offices today at noon because of what he said were multiple death threats and threats of violence.
Police are stationed outside his Tucson office, according to a statement from spokesman Adam Sarvana.
Sarvana said the office received “some pretty scary calls,” including two from the same person, he said, “who threatened to go down there and blow everyone’s brains out then go to the border to shoot Mexicans.”
Grijalva staffer Ruben Reyes said the office has been flooded with calls all week about Senate Bill 1070. About 25 percent are “very racist” in nature, Reyes said, characterizing some as “telling that tortilla-eating wetback to go back to Mexico.”
stands for decibels
April 23rd, 2010
2:46 pm
I wish Zidane had taken out that big Italian [word I can't type cause I KNOW Blog God won't like it].
Gavone?
Paul
April 23rd, 2010
2:46 pm
“A Missouri man who won a $258 million Powerball jackpot and plans to use some of the money to pay bills, replace his two missing front teeth and take his children to Disney World said he hasn’t decided yet if he’ll quit his job at the convenience store where he bought the winning ticket.
Chris Shaw — a 29-year-old tattooed father of three who was raised by his grandparents in rural southern Missouri — came forward Thursday as the winner of the 10th-largest Powerball jackpot ever. Shaw said he had just $28.96 in his bank account and recently bought a 1998 Ford Ranger from a friend who agreed to let him pay off the $1,000 price $100 at a time. Now, he said, he no longer has to worry about how he’ll pay his friend — or his utility bills.”
“He said his children already have been asking for new skateboards, bicycles and “just stuff that’s really hard to do when you make $7.25 an hour.”"
Picture: http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100423/ap_on_re_us/us_powerball_winner_missouri
Don’tcha’ just love it?
Normal
April 23rd, 2010
2:50 pm
Bosch
April 23rd, 2010
2:25 pm
I never, ever get polled.
Me either, b8ut it’s my choice. I have that Comcast thing that puts the phone number calling on the TV screen and If I don’t recognize it, I just let the machine pick it up… Since it’s baseball season, they have to listen to this…
“OK sports fans, it’s the bottom of the ninth, one out, Mrs. Normal is on first, and Normal at bat with a three and two count. The pitcher winds up, looks to first, and throws. Normal swings! It’s a chopper to short, tossed to second, Mrs. Normal is out, throw to first…IN TIME and Normal is out! (Pause) So leave your name and number and they will call you when they get back in…
md
April 23rd, 2010
2:51 pm
“Certainly there couldn’t possibly be any exploitation or other reasons involved, in modern day America, huh? (Eye roll.)”
Actually, no. People will only be denied if they allow themselves to be denied.
Best teacher I ever had said – “Results, not excuses”
Keep those excuses coming.
AmVet
April 23rd, 2010
2:52 pm
Please peeps, stop with all of the platitudes about the poor.
I do not disagree but THAT is not my point.
Take a guess what is…
md
April 23rd, 2010
2:53 pm
“As I’ve always said, in a capitalistic society, there will always be poor people”
And there is no written rule that says it has to be the “same” people that are poor.
Where there is a will, there is a way.
AmVet
April 23rd, 2010
2:54 pm
md, it must be lovely there in your utopian America and parallel reality…
Normal
April 23rd, 2010
2:55 pm
“Where there is a will, there is a way.”
No, where there is a will, there is usually a dead person and a lawyer…
Paul
April 23rd, 2010
2:55 pm
AmVet
That some poor people, having been through some of the worst schools in the country, raised by others because of irresponsible parents, living in areas with no economic development, served by politicians unable to deliver any real means for them to improve their lot in life…
think the only shot they have at improving their situation and providing for those they love is to risk a buck on a gazillion-to one shot lottery ticket?
HDB
April 23rd, 2010
2:56 pm
AmVet
April 23rd, 2010
1:56 pm
Lumpkin,
Nuclear, solar, wind, geothermal.
I presume you want to drill, baby, drill instead?
Don’t forget fuel cells, fusion, hydrogen….we HAD the lead in those technlogical pursuits until the tax incentives were removed…..and we all know who did it (NO, not Bush….REAGAN..in 1981!)
md
April 23rd, 2010
2:58 pm
“md, it must be lovely there in your utopian America and parallel reality…”
More excuses?
Give me one reason why anybody can’t choose to better themselves. “Free” school system, “free” books from the library, unending supply of info on the internet.
Granted, there are many that can’t and do need help, but there are many more that can, and won’t.
Read one book, and that knowledge can not be taken away, its yours forever.
Paul
April 23rd, 2010
3:02 pm
md
You wake up one day and your wife is gone and you have three kids. You find that all your past education and training has been erased. You have a minimal education, no savings, no home equity. No health insurance. Rent and utilities are due, as are all the needs of your children.
How, specifically, do you get ahead? Not just maintain, but make it to the middle class?
jefferson
April 23rd, 2010
3:05 pm
No use trying to teach md to sing…
AmVet
April 23rd, 2010
3:05 pm
Paul, some in this country just cannot admit that there is actually systemic injustice and exploitation in the USA. And that much of it is directed at the poor. (Much the same as they refuse to believe that there is widespread corporate criminality that took this republic to the brink of a second Great Depression.)
So they bring out endless red herrings – sage advice though it may be – about bootstraps, etc.
BTW, when it comes to talking about coming from VERY humble (poor) beginnings I know of what I speak…
stands for decibels
April 23rd, 2010
3:07 pm
Don’tcha’ just love it?
Given what tends to happen to folks who experience these life changing windfalls (my understanding is, it doesn’t generally end well at all), I don’t.
Not to be a total Debbie Downer here, but I’d much rather that Mr. Shaw and millions of others had access to work that paid a living wage, and that the days of adults working $7.25/hour jobs with no benefits were a distant memory.
Bosch
April 23rd, 2010
3:08 pm
Paul,
Yes, I love stories like that – those people have absolutely no idea how much money they’ve just won. And, sadly, the amount of headache they just inherited.
Wonder why the news story pointed out the tattoos? That always bugs me as an identifier or someone — unless it’s for a missing person or a fugitive or something – otherwise I think it’s kind of discriminatory.
Anywho —
“md, it must be lovely there in your utopian America and parallel reality…”
That was funny!
md
April 23rd, 2010
3:09 pm
Paul,
One day at a time.
You very nearly describe my childhood. Dirt poor, 2 and sometimes 3 deadend jobs, family to support, no assets, no car – sold to pay bills.
One has 2 choices – live day to day and wallow in self pity, or live day to day and make it a point to not have to do it the rest of your life.
I studied every spare moment, between changing diapers and sleeping very few hours between jobs. It took years………..and I mean years………to dig out of that hole.
But believe me, it CAN be done. BUT, one has to WANT to do it.
md
April 23rd, 2010
3:10 pm
Am – still more excuses??
The Dirtest Side of Dirty Energy » Consequence
April 23rd, 2010
3:10 pm
[...] billions in profits, they bear little liability for oil spills, environmental protection, or say, a huge fire on a rig in the Gulf of Mexico that leaves 11 people missing. All 11 of those missing are presumed dead now that the rig has sunk into the gulf and begun to [...]
AmVet
April 23rd, 2010
3:11 pm
HDB, I think that there should be a blend of approaches to weaning ourselves off of fossil fuels.
I guess my nuclear option, scared old Lumpkin off!
We’ve already lost the 35 years since Carter, in great part, due to the subsidized petrochemical corporate interests. So now we find ourselves *still* over a barrel…
Doggone/GA
April 23rd, 2010
3:13 pm
“but I’d much rather that Mr. Shaw and millions of others had access to work that paid a living wage”
No argument with that…but windfalls are fun. My complaint is with the lottery systems as currently set up. Sure, it’s nice to contemplate winning $200 million or so…but personally I’d be happy with 5% of that. $10 million is still a lot of money.
I think they should cap the lottery adn $10 million actually paid to the winner, or at $20 million total (however you prefer) and keep drawing numbers until they’d drawn winners for the multiple that comes closest to, but no over the total available.
So if the available amount is, say, $260 million…they would draw 13 numbers, not just one.
Bosch
April 23rd, 2010
3:13 pm
md,
I commend you for work, but let’s face it:
“live day to day and wallow in self pity”
let’s face it, alot of people aren’t strong enough to do it – and I know a lot of well off folks who wallow in self pity when they have absolutely no reason to.
Bosch
April 23rd, 2010
3:15 pm
Doggone,
I remember once I won like $100 bucks on a lottery ticket – I was jumping up and down like I’d won a million. It’s was EXCITING!!
md
April 23rd, 2010
3:16 pm
“we HAD the lead in those technlogical pursuits until the tax incentives were removed…..and we all know who did it (NO, not Bush….REAGAN..in 1981!)”
Excuse for for being lazy and not looking it up, but where those tax incentives put back under Clinton?
AmVet
April 23rd, 2010
3:17 pm
md, have a great afternoon.
BTW, I think I’ve discovered the great option that is missing on our ballots?
None of the above.
If that option got the most votes, what kind of message would that send to the entrenched and “irremovable” pols?
New elections with new candidates in 45 days, baby…
Doggone/GA
April 23rd, 2010
3:18 pm
“It’s was EXCITING!!”
Lucky you. I’ve never won enough to get excited. I did work with a woman once who won $600 and when she cashed it in she bought another ticket and won another $600! OTOH, a co-worker got a promotion and was leaving our office, so we put together a pool and bought him %50 worth of $1 tickets. Not a SINGLE ONE paid off!
md
April 23rd, 2010
3:19 pm
“let’s face it, alot of people aren’t strong enough to do it – and I know a lot of well off folks who wallow in self pity when they have absolutely no reason to.”
And the reality is that enabling will never make them stronger – only weaker.
Doggone/GA
April 23rd, 2010
3:20 pm
“And the reality is that enabling will never make them stronger – only weaker”
Not a given. Some people only need to be shown what they CAN do, with a little help, and they take off running with it.
Soothsayer
April 23rd, 2010
3:20 pm
Bra retailer wants to expand her uplifting reach
Ah . . . so many jokes . . . well, just this one.
A man walks into a store and says, “I need to buy a bra for my wife.”
“Great!” says, the clerk, “what kind?”
“You mean there are different kinds of bras?” he says.
“Well, we have the Catholic bra, the Salvation Army bra, and the Baptist bra.”
“You’re going to have to help me there, what’s the difference?”
“Well, the Catholic bra provides support for the masses.
The Salvation Army bra provides hope for the downfallen.
And the Baptist bra . . .”
“Yeah, what’s the story with that Baptist bra?” The man asks.
“Oh, it’s for making mountains out of molehills! ! !”
Normal
April 23rd, 2010
3:21 pm
I think I’ll start reading comics again.
http://www.accessatlanta.com/celebrities-tv/archie-comics-new-character-486770.html?cxntlid=thbz_hm
Bosch
April 23rd, 2010
3:22 pm
md,
“And the reality is that enabling will never make them stronger – only weaker.”
I don’t disagree with that, totally, but these people have to be somewhere, and not helping is not an option to me. Better to enable than to starve in the street or turn to crime.
I mean, kids don’t dream of being poor.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Doggone,
“I did work with a woman once who won $600 and when she cashed it in she bought another ticket and won another $600!”
I would have rubbed up against that woman in a totally inappropriate way just to get a little of her aura on me.
Bosch
April 23rd, 2010
3:23 pm
md,
Yeah, and what Doggone said (@ 3:20).
md
April 23rd, 2010
3:23 pm
“Excuse for for being lazy and not looking it up, but where those tax incentives put back under Clinton?”
Butchered that one pretty good – didn’t I. Insert “Excuse me” and “were” as needed.
Scout
April 23rd, 2010
3:23 pm
Oooops ! Jay ……… want to do a thread on this one ?
Headline AP: “WASHINGTON – Report says health care will cover more, cost more…”
“President Barack Obama’s health care overhaul law is getting a mixed verdict in the first comprehensive look by neutral experts: More Americans will be covered, but costs are also going up.
Economic experts at the Health and Human Services Department concluded in a report issued Thursday that the health care remake will achieve Obama’s aim of expanding health insurance — adding 34 million to the coverage rolls.
But the analysis also found that the law falls short of the president’s twin goal of controlling runaway costs, raising projected spending by about 1 percent over 10 years. That increase could get bigger, since Medicare cuts in the law may be unrealistic and unsustainable, the report warned.
It’s a worrisome assessment for Democrats.”
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100423/ap_on_bi_ge/us_health_care_law_costs
Paul
April 23rd, 2010
3:27 pm
AmVet
Yes, those with minimal means to assist themselves are many times the victims of exploitation. I’ve thought before as I’ve looked at some “If I found myself in that situation tomorrow, what would I do?”
The reality is wrenching.
sfd
I’ve seen shows where even people with good educations and jobs blew it all. I was glad to see in tat article he’s going to get a financial advisor.
I’m reminded of something some young men do when they’re drafted to the pro leagues: all the relatives come out of the woodwork. Mr. Ball Player says to each “you’re family (I think). Here’s a gift from me to you from my good fortune. A check for $50,000.”
“Don’t ever ask for any more.”
Bosch
I think the writers cite the tattoos because they’re not gutsy enough to do it and they’re envious.
md
I’m glad for your success. Really. And I do recognize people are different. Many come from well to do backgrounds and end up with nothing. Difference in people, I guess. But my next point was, my experience has been in nearly every case like yours, there are others lending a hand, giving support. Watching the kids while one’s off to school. Assisting with ideas, pointing in a good direction. Maybe lending money for school. Giving a break on car repairs, helping out with rent.
Rarely is it a solo effort, particularly when one’s responsible for others. And if one doesn’t have any kind of a support system – friends, church, family – then it can be pretty bleak.
md
April 23rd, 2010
3:28 pm
“Not a given. Some people only need to be shown what they CAN do, with a little help, and they take off running with it.”
There is a difference between “help” and “enabling”.
One would not give an alcoholic alcohol and expect him to get better – he needs help. But, that individual will never be “helped”, unless he allows it to happen. It starts from within.
Doggone/GA
April 23rd, 2010
3:29 pm
“More Americans will be covered, but costs are also going up.”
“That increase could get bigger, since Medicare cuts in the law may be unrealistic and unsustainable”
Funny how quickly they went from the hard and fast “will be” and “are…going up” to the sepculative “could” and “may be” – isn’t it?
HDB
April 23rd, 2010
3:30 pm
md
April 23rd, 2010
3:16 pm
“we HAD the lead in those technlogical pursuits until the tax incentives were removed…..and we all know who did it (NO, not Bush….REAGAN..in 1981!)”
Excuse for for being lazy and not looking it up, but where those tax incentives put back under Clinton?
YOU MADE MY POINT!! If those incentives hadn’t been removed by Reagan, where do you think GE would be in the production of wind turbine technology vs. Siemens?? GE was the leader before Reagan kowtowed to the oil companies!!
Also…if the oil companies hadn’t destroyed the plans to GM and Chrysler’s gas turbine cars in the 60s….and USAC hadn’t colluded with the oil companies, car companies, and piston-engine manufacturers in 1969, the STP Turbine Car would’ve given the US the technological advantage in alternative-fueled engines!! That same tax incentive that Reagan took out also would’ve allowed the HOME MANUFACTURING of alcohol based fuels WITHOUT interference from BATF…..
Lack of vision……
moonbat betty
April 23rd, 2010
3:30 pm
New Earth Day rule:
Turn off all electricity and water with no gas powered transportation for 24 hours.
Can you handle it?
Bosch
April 23rd, 2010
3:31 pm
“Can you handle it?”
Of course!
HDB
April 23rd, 2010
3:34 pm
md
April 23rd, 2010
3:28 pm
“Not a given. Some people only need to be shown what they CAN do, with a little help, and they take off running with it.”
There is a difference between “help” and “enabling”.
One would not give an alcoholic alcohol and expect him to get better – he needs help. But, that individual will never be “helped”, unless he allows it to happen. It starts from within.
Not in all cases; in some cases, it takes an intervention to get the correction started. In others, it’s external influences….raised expectations by a teacher or a person of influence. Something has to be a catalyst; not everyone has self-motivation!!
Scout
April 23rd, 2010
3:35 pm
Doggone/GA
Oh Yes, and …………… any way you slice it, it’s a worrisome assessment for Democrats !
THE BACKLASH IS COMING !
stands for decibels
April 23rd, 2010
3:35 pm
Sheets.
md
April 23rd, 2010
3:37 pm
Paul,
It may look as if I’m painting with a broad brush, but I am quite aware that many have more obstacles to overcome. But I get tired of folks writing them off because of their situation (oh poor thing, just give it to them) I’m a firm believer in a safety net and help, but I do not belief anyone will be helped without conditions. I’ll help with the bills, food whatever, but in return you will empower yourself with knowledge every chance you get.
We don’t do that.
We allow folks to choose to drop out of school, yet we never require them to drop back in.
There is short term help – enabling, and then long term help – knowledge. The short term method does not work and never has.
AmVet
April 23rd, 2010
3:41 pm
“THE BACKLASH IS COMING !”
Great!
I can hardly wait!
What we REALLY need now is a bunch more years JUST like 2000 through 2008!
THOSE were the good old days, huh?
Paul
April 23rd, 2010
3:41 pm
md
[[There is a difference between “help” and “enabling”. ]]
And from your following paragraph, it strikes me how it’s viewed and how it’s used is up to the recipient.
Rather like if you hold a door open for a woman. One may thank you. The other may berate you. Same action, but the recipient interpreted and acted.
So in a huge system, comprised of millions of people, it seems to me we can’t really micromanage or refine to the extent of saying “this is just help but this is enabling.” We can just make the best judgment on what we provide as far as what’s reasonablel and let the person take it from there.
Scout
April 23rd, 2010
3:43 pm
AmVet:
You bet ………. get ready !
HDB
April 23rd, 2010
3:43 pm
md..In certain ways, I agree with you!! The American paradigm has ALWAYS taken the short-term view as to how to solve a problem….the QUICK FIX…from social issues to political problems…EVERYONE desires an immediate solution; the problem is is that in many problems…there IS NO quick fix!!!
This nation HAS to adopt a LONG-TERM strategy to fix the nation’s issues:
Welfare HAS to be tied into education and job training….
Employment HAS to be tied into both taxes and regulation
National security HAS to be tied into energy independence and foreign relations
Politics HAS to be tied into the needs of the NATION, not the anger of a segment……
That’s from a LIBERAL!!!
md
April 23rd, 2010
3:44 pm
“Not in all cases; in some cases, it takes an intervention to get the correction started. In others, it’s external influences….raised expectations by a teacher or a person of influence. Something has to be a catalyst; not everyone has self-motivation!!”
Even those that need a catalyst must have some kind of self-motivation. We can’t force anybody to do anything, it must come from within. But it more than likely will never come at all if we as a society just give them a little help and tell them to go about their way. Even a child understands that allowances are in exchange for something, and if they aren’t, its enabling.
And you didn’t say whether Clinton reinstated. If he didn’t, that was 10 years ago. 10 years is also a long time.
HDB
April 23rd, 2010
3:45 pm
AmVet
April 23rd, 2010
3:41 pm
“THE BACKLASH IS COMING !”
Great!
I can hardly wait!
What we REALLY need now is a bunch more years JUST like 2000 through 2008!
THOSE were the good old days, huh?
NOT FOR ME, IT WASN’T!! Go back to 1995-2000 — those were the BEST years for me!!
Paul
April 23rd, 2010
3:48 pm
md
[[oh poor thing, just give it to them]]
I don’t believe I’ve ever heard the most progressive Progressive here advocate that.
Regarding dropping back in, I think our society pretty much says to such “live with it.” Didn’t Clinton’s welfare reforms put a lifetime limit or time limit on benefits? And, absent having kids or a disability, isn’t it pretty difficult for a single guy to choose to live off the state? Or impossible?
I know we don’t require people to drop back in and there are some who are content to remain that way. I’m just not convinced this society structures things well for people who want to drop back in and better themselves. Go to some of these towns and cities that are nearly deserted. The only option people had was, not to stay and retrain and go to work in new industries, but to leave. Because there was nothing else to grab onto.
HDB
April 23rd, 2010
3:49 pm
md: The catalyst can GENERATE the motivation! I’ve seen children with NO sense of direction…no motivation…no desire….get pointed and encouraged by a person of great influence (teachers, parents, contemporaries)…and THEN the self-motivation generates…the desire grows…and the direction taken!!
In our cases, we had the DESIRE to prosper…and the EXPECTATIONS were high. It’s not that way in all cases!!
What we have to do as a nation is to become the catalyst for improvement, rather than mediocrity!!
AmVet
April 23rd, 2010
3:52 pm
Scout, will we working class Americans at least get Vaseline with the new and improved neo-cons?
md
April 23rd, 2010
3:53 pm
“So in a huge system, comprised of millions of people, it seems to me we can’t really micromanage or refine to the extent of saying “this is just help but this is enabling.”
And I don’t necessarily agree. We can track those that choose to drop out of school, as we have the capacity. What I object to, is those that make a choice to drop out and then later ask for monetary assistance in whatever form, and there is no system to put them back on track.
We could very easily let them know that in order to receive assistance, they will get to make another choice – choose to go back into the education system for the betterment of all, or good luck on your own. there needs to be that catalyst HDB is talking about.
Tough love, so to speak.
A Lumpkin resident.
April 23rd, 2010
3:55 pm
HDB wrote: “I presume you want to drill, baby, drill instead?”
Am wrote: “I guess my nuclear option, scared old Lumpkin off!”
Am is an idiot, and you both presume incorrectly. I am whole hog for Solar and Nuclear. I always have been. Wind is great, but there are limited places where it could be deployed. I have always felt that fossil fuels should be saved for the creation of plastics.
But, try to find a place to store nuclear fuels, and the environmentalists go nuts. Try to section off some desert to put solar, and the environmentalists go nuts. Try to put up a solar farm, and the environmentalists go nuts. Of course, it might be a different bunch of environmentalists depending on the project, but they have effectively held up new nuclear plants for years.
I am just sick and damn tired of people like Bookman spouting off about this that or the other without committing to a plan of action. Same thing with the environmentalist movement in general. It would be far worse for the environment to go back to the pre-electric times. Take a look at Africa. We would end up denuding the U.S. in no time. On one hand, they say “electric cars, electric cars, electric cars”, On the other hand, they say NIMBY to solar/wind farms and nuclear waste storage, and “NO” to fossil fuel plants or damming rivers. If Bookman doesn’t want to drill, he needs to say what he does want to do, and where he wants to put it.
So, AmVet, where are you going to put those nuclear plants and solar farms? Who’s back yard will you insert them in that will accept them? Where do you propose to put the nuclear waste? Harry Reid is going to make damn sure it is not Yucca Mountain. In fact, EVERY Democrat will make sure you don’t store it anywhere in their districts/states.
Environmentalists in wind farm states of Michigan/Ohio/Mass/Illinois/NewYork … all solidly Democrat… are actively fighting the establishment of wind farms on the great lakes and off the coast of Mass.
Environmentalists in the the Desert southwest are doing likewise against Solar.
Try to put a nuke plant in anywhere, and you’ll get cries of “environmental racism”. Take a look at the Green party website.
I simply want environmentalists and Democrats to make up their minds on what they want, and that “no new plants” is NOT an answer.
HDB
April 23rd, 2010
3:56 pm
@ Paul: You’re RIGHT!! NO Progressive…especially ME….has ever advocated enabling!!
What people fail to realize that welfare reform did NOT re-establish the male’s influence in the family unit….it made it easier for the female to be compensated if the male were removed from the family situation!! If the family unit had a male unit of working age (a spousal “unit”)…there was NO welfare…save a disability!! A single man can NOT get welfare….but he CAN get food stamps if the income level is below the poverty level (less than minimum wage and the cost of living for a particular area).
” know we don’t require people to drop back in and there are some who are content to remain that way. I’m just not convinced this society structures things well for people who want to drop back in and better themselves. Go to some of these towns and cities that are nearly deserted. The only option people had was, not to stay and retrain and go to work in new industries, but to leave. Because there was nothing else to grab onto.”
THIS IS SO ON POINT!! Look at Flint, Michigan as a prime example….there’s NOTHING to hold onto!!
md
April 23rd, 2010
3:59 pm
“@ Paul: You’re RIGHT!! NO Progressive…especially ME….has ever advocated enabling!!”
Sorry, don’t agree. Anyone supporting healthcare subsidies for those making under 88k, is advocating enabling.
HDB
April 23rd, 2010
4:01 pm
A Lumpkin resident.
April 23rd, 2010
3:55 pm
HDB wrote: “I presume you want to drill, baby, drill instead?”
Am wrote: “I guess my nuclear option, scared old Lumpkin off!”
WHOA…the statement you attested to me was ALL from AmVet….I stated fuel cells, hydrogen….
I have no problem with implementing a myriad of technologies to solve our energy dependence…but this nation would’ve been MUCH CLOSER to where we should’ve been if certain politicians had the VISION (note my previous blog about Reagan’s tax disincentives to GE)…….
HDB
April 23rd, 2010
4:04 pm
md: If I’m working and have a plan I’m happy with, I’ll stay with it!
If my EMPLOYER is getting a subsidy that allows my health coverage, it that enabling??
Question: what income range would you allow a subsidy for health care?? really interested in knowing…….
I know that due to my family history, I would be prone to insure regular doctor’s visits to maintain good health…but I won’t abuse the system since I still have to pay a copay for the services!!
HDB
April 23rd, 2010
4:06 pm
md….and I do think it was Clinton that reinstated the tax credit for alternative energy research in 1994…..
AmVet
April 23rd, 2010
4:08 pm
Lumpkin guy,
As for the nuke plant, I’d say build in downtown Dahlonega. Certainly those god fearing conservatives are not NIMBYs.
Or maybe in the Chattahoochee National Forest. That’ll show them tree huggers.
md
April 23rd, 2010
4:22 pm
“Question: what income range would you allow a subsidy for health care?? really interested in knowing…….”
Somewhere closer to the poverty level, if we are going to redistribute wealth, those that can afford it – should. Life is about choices – 88k a year and can’t pay for insurance? I’ve done it for years on a lot less.
md
April 23rd, 2010
4:31 pm
HDB,
May want to do a bit more research:
“On Oct. 24, with a Maurice, La., oil rig for a backdrop, President Bush penned his name to the Energy Policy Act of 1992. By the year 2010, this bill to revamp U.S. energy strategy is expected to cut oil imports by one-third — up to 4.7 million barrels a day — and boost renewable energy use by 20 percent.”
Scout
April 23rd, 2010
4:45 pm
AmVet:
I doubt it. The “lemmings” have it coming.
Scout
April 23rd, 2010
4:58 pm
TEST, TEST.