Is U.S. ‘a mirror image of Rome as it tipped into chaos’?
Mark Fisher, writing this week for BusinessWeek and Bloomberg News, warns that “the U.S. today is a mirror image of the Roman Empire as it tipped into chaos. Whether we blame our bloated government, a greedy elite or a lethargic population, the similarities between the two foreshadow a gruesome future.”
It’s a familiar and often popular defeatist trope. Ever since 18th century historian Edward Gibbon wrote his famous “Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire,” every succeeding empire — and by many definitions the United States is exactly that — has looked nervously to the Roman example. The narrative arc of Gibbon’s story — Rome fell as its people grew soft and weak — lends itself to those who want to see a similar arc in their own time and place.
Fisher, for example, claims that just as the Romans allowed themselves to be distracted by bread and circuses, “Americans have become less productive while relying more on social safety net programs such as Medicare, Medicaid and Social Security — and now, expanded health care insurance. Worse, like the ancient Romans, a sense of entitlement has replaced the drive we once championed. With easy access to government handouts, it’s no wonder so many people have stopped looking for work.”
Like many of those who employ the Roman example, Fisher’s grasp of both history and economics is weak. His suggestion that our current unemployment crisis is driven by a lack of people seeking jobs, rather than a lack of jobs in the first place, is only one example of misplaced morality substituting for actual thought and analysis.
For another example, consider Fisher’s prescription to cure what ails us:
“Unless the government creates a massive jobs program, cuts spending and taxes, and gains control of the national budget and the balance of payments crises, we should fear for our future. Unless our fellow Americans relearn the value of hard work, no government plan stands a chance.”
To many, that might sound right and feel right, until you begin to think about the content. The government must create a massive jobs program AND it must cut spending? It must cut taxes AND gain control of our national budget? Those basic contradictions betray an intellectual laziness of the first order — to see it followed by a lecture about the value of hard work only adds to its entertainment value.
There are many ways for a nation to decline. The Soviet Union did not disappear because it became soft and weak; it vanished because it clung too rigidly too long to an unworkable ideology. Japan, the rising power once trumpeted as a challenger to the United States for economic supremacy, lost both its confidence and its capacity to innovate, and as a result has suffered a two-decade decline that shows no sign of abating. In effect, both the Soviets and the Japanese declined because they became paralyzed with fear at the thought of doing something different.
Many who would buy into Fisher’s half-baked thesis would probably include health-insurance reform among the signs of our nation’s growing weakness, as did he. I would argue just the opposite. As the chart below documents, no other industrialized nation spends anything close to 16 percent of its GDP on health care, even though many provide health care that matches or exceeds that available here.
Seen in that light, the health-insurance reform bill is a necessary response to a major economic challenge. By any international comparison, our approach to health care is grossly inefficient and consumes resources that could be spent elsewhere to greater benefit. Obamacare is an act of innovation, and like any innovation it is far from perfect. But the alternative of doing little or nothing to address the problem, even as health-care spending is projected to increase to 18 or 20 percent of our economy, would be the true act of a nation and culture in decline.
In hard times, claims of impending collapse such as those advanced by Fisher resonate in many ears, for understandable reasons. We do have serious problems. If recessions teach lessons, then Great Recessions teach great lessons. Among other things, this one has taught us that as a nation and as individuals, we had become too consumption-oriented, too willing to indulge ourselves today in exchange for a debt to be repaid next week, next year, next generation. We have been living beyond our means in ways too numerous to count.
At an individual level, for most of us, that lesson has been driven home hard. At the national level it has not. Fundamental changes are still forthcoming, and some will be wrenching. We cannot, for example, afford to sustain a global military establishment with footprints in roughly 140 nations at last count — the economic dominance that financed our role as planetary policeman was temporary, and the role itself must be temporary as well.
The generosity of entitlement programs beyond the basics will likewise have to be curtailed, even though that will mean lower standards of living for some. Taxes will also have to be increased, even though that may mean lower standards of living for a different set of Americans. Higher taxes and curtailed entitlements are two halves of a necessary political bargain, and convincing the American people of the necessity of that change represents the single biggest challenge to our political leadership over the next decade.
However, those changes should not be interpreted as signs — or causes — of our decline. If implemented, they will be evidence of a people that is still willing to adjust and innovate and share in sacrifice for a better future, just as our forefathers did.
On the other hand, if we prove unwilling to take such steps, maybe Fisher will be proved right after all.
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352 comments Add your comment
Dave R.
March 31st, 2010
1:03 pm
Doggone, color me shocked that you add no substance to this discussion.
Grow up.
getalife
March 31st, 2010
1:03 pm
Pimping democracy with bombs is expensive.
We survived the worst ever so we are in decline.
The United States of Corporations is up and running.
BMDPD
March 31st, 2010
1:03 pm
RB, I am laughing. The could use some good propoganda writers. Jay?
Dave R.
March 31st, 2010
1:03 pm
First on the fourth!
HDB
March 31st, 2010
1:04 pm
BMDPD
March 31st, 2010
12:56 pm
HDB, with the election of our fearless leader. It proved to me that the mindset of the American people has changed……….
Hate to say this…but the mindset had changed PRIOR to President Obama’s election. For some, the entitlement culture began with Reagan; imho, certain areas of the populace felt they were entitled to whatever they could get…for some, it was wealth at the expense of labor; for others, it was government largesse!! Others would see that the entitlement culture took hold in the 60s when welfare rules changed to force the MALE out of the family structure in order to get assistance!! THAT MUST CHANGE!!
I feel that the safety net needs strengthening…but those who did NOT input into the system shouldn’t be able to withdraw from the same system!!
md
March 31st, 2010
1:05 pm
“The government protections now in place basically replace the need for unions.”
I have yet to see a satisfactory explanation as to why there is a need for any gov’t union. These are the same folks that write the labor laws, there should be no need for a union of people against “the people”.
Dave R.
March 31st, 2010
1:09 pm
Yeah, md, I love all the reports of unsafe working conditions in our elementary schools!
BMDPD
March 31st, 2010
1:09 pm
The Union has run its course as far as I am concerned. Now they are just as corrupt as politicians. They were needed, but not anymore.
HDB
March 31st, 2010
1:09 pm
BMDPD
March 31st, 2010
1:00 pm
HDB. Yep the unions are great. They push companies to Mexico and China. I am not going to say the business does not share in the blame, but unions have pushed business to the edge. Tell me about the financial well being of airlines and automakers. They are both heavily unionized organizations.
If you look at the major carriers, American and Southwest are doing fine!! With Southwest, management RESPECTS labor…negotiations have always been civil…and negotiations end with a HANDSHAKE when a consensus is reached!! Southwest has had only ONE layoff in its corporate history…it lasted for ONE day….and it wrote a NO-LAYOFF POLICY in its corporate creed!!
The problem is that in many unionized industries, management and labor place thenselves in adversarial positions and rather than to protect the ENTIRE corporation, the entities look to protect only themselves.
BMDPD
March 31st, 2010
1:11 pm
HDB, hence my statement Unions are now as corrupt as politicians.
BMDPD
March 31st, 2010
1:12 pm
There are organizations out there that are non union where the employees will all take an across the board paycut to preserve all jobs when production is down. Let’s see a union do that.
Dave R.
March 31st, 2010
1:12 pm
And Finn, your 12:43?
You do know that most of the taxes generated to pay for police, fire and roads are done through local property taxes of HOMEOWNERS and with SALES taxes, don’t you? Not corporate taxes.
Of course you don’t.
Bosch
March 31st, 2010
1:13 pm
“I love all the reports of unsafe working conditions in our elementary schools!”
Huh?
I Report (-: You Whine )-: Impeach Drunken Fool obozo! Just sayin....
March 31st, 2010
1:13 pm
Jut think, we even have our own little Caesar, except our’s is a tard, just sayin…
Seen in that light, the health-insurance reform bill is a necessary response to a major economic challenge.
Yeah, if your challenge is how to destroy the US economy-
Just one week of experience with Obamacare shows how unhinged from reality the ultra-left ruling Democrats who imposed it on us are. Because Obamacare raises taxes on employer provided retiree health benefits, U.S. accounting laws enforced by the SEC require companies to immediately report the resulting losses. So the loss reports are coming in: AT&T $1 billion, Caterpillar $100 million, Deere & Co. $150 million, 3M $90 million. President Obama promised us his government takeover would promote jobs and economic growth by reducing costs for employers, but already it is doing just the opposite.-AmSpec
obozocare does indeed mark a turning point in the history of our great nation, the point at which we turned and nosedived straight to the freaking bottom.
Jay
March 31st, 2010
1:13 pm
Gee, with all you folks on the right so eager to ship me to China, somebody might think I was being too persuasive or something.
md
March 31st, 2010
1:14 pm
“but those who did NOT input into the system shouldn’t be able to withdraw from the same system!!”
Good luck with that one. We allow individuals “free” educations as it is, and many choose to forego said education for a less satisfactory lifestyle – and then blame it on others and vote for assistance.
We choose everything we do – and that includes being uneducated and untrained. The system should require that these same individuals choose to re-enter the aformentioned education system in exchange for assistance. Instead, our system enables them, allowing them to remain uneducated and untrained at the expense of society.
Jay
March 31st, 2010
1:15 pm
Besides, I don’t think they’d like me there. I’m too critical of their system. You folks singing the praises of China’s alleged laissez-faire policies would fit right in though.
BMDPD
March 31st, 2010
1:15 pm
Jay, I was in it all for fun. We all take pokes at each other, but keep patting yourself on the back.
Dave R.
March 31st, 2010
1:15 pm
Just posted on the Boston Herald website:
“Cape Wind to buy turbines from GERMAN-based Siemens Corp.”
Gotta love all those green jobs Hope & Changed promised would happen. Problem is, they’re happening elsewhere!
HDB
March 31st, 2010
1:16 pm
BMDPD – If management hadn’t screwed over labor to increase profits, labor wouldn’t need union protection in most cases!! Government protections do NOT cover labor in every aspect of employment law; unions fill that void!!
For many, the word union is antagonistic; for others, it’s cooperative!! Management determines that paradigm!!
jefferson
March 31st, 2010
1:16 pm
When Americans accepted mediocrity as a norm, because they themselves started doing a half assed job, was the beginnings of a 2nd rate nation. Generally speaking.
Dave R.
March 31st, 2010
1:17 pm
Bosch, simply pointing out the absurdity of needing teachers unions. Sometimes you are a bit slow on the uptake.
FinnMcCool
March 31st, 2010
1:17 pm
ok, Dave. You want to strip out any quality of life so you can have some sort of success. What kind of success would that be? Financial? Is that the only kind of success you know?
I think that might be part of the American problem – one track mind. There is more to life than JUST money. If you have all the money in the world but you live in crap, surrounded by unhappy people cause you all live in crap, what kind of success you have there?
This one track mind – money, money, money is why you have Clark Howard out on the front lines poking holes in the livlihood of rip-off and scam artists. It’s why you have preachers passing the till while promising you that god wants you to be rich (I guess it’s not enough to be healthy and happy, God also wants you to have a wad of cash so you can buy more stuff!)
What separates us from the 3rd world countries is how far we’ve advanced in terms of how we treat each other, the environment we live and work in, and on and on.
But, hey, lets shuttle off all those benefits and stuff so Dave can make some money!
I Report (-: You Whine )-: Impeach Drunken Fool obozo! Just sayin...
March 31st, 2010
1:19 pm
the economic dominance that financed our role as planetary policeman was temporary
Freaking socialists, even the most basic things escape the giant vacuum that is their empty heads, we do not “police” anybody, we are their protectors.
Protectors of Freedom, which is exactly why these communist wannabes would like nothing more than to neuter our global dominance. National Security surrender monkeys, if I remember correctly.
Turn it all over to the terrorists, eh, Bookman?
RB from Gwinnett
March 31st, 2010
1:19 pm
I’m sure everything is equal and the only reason China can make almost everything and ship it half way around the planet for far less than we can make it here is our corporations are all greedy and evil. Isn’t that the conclusion you want everyone to reach, Jay? There, I just saved you the trouble of actually writing it.
Dave R.
March 31st, 2010
1:21 pm
Factoid that probably interests only me:
New England has had so many floods this year, they’re naming them according to the time of month they occurred.
Crazy weather. Crazy.
John Birch
March 31st, 2010
1:23 pm
China is booming because the WHO list that has the US 37th in healthcare lists China at 144 and their per capita income ranking is about 90, behind such notables as Tunisia and Guam! They realized communism didn’t work so they adopted a good capitalist model, cheap manufactured goods. Unfortunately, that model is unsustainable as both Japan and the US have demonstrated. If it works to the point that their GDP rises significantly they won’t be able to compete with the even poorer countries like Indonesia, Haiti and Nigeria.
Bosch
March 31st, 2010
1:24 pm
Dave R.,
I was messing with you. I knew what you meant, but seriously, there are no teacher unions here in the state — not in the same grain of traditional labor unions.
Dave R.
March 31st, 2010
1:26 pm
There goes Finn again, putting words in my mouth because he can’t defend reason and making up unreasonable conclusions because he can’t defend HIS position.
Dave R.
March 31st, 2010
1:27 pm
And now its time to go out and mow my lawn, folks.
Feel free to misrepresent me and any and all reasonable arguments while I’m gone. . .
FinnMcCool
March 31st, 2010
1:28 pm
Do you think small business owners work only 40 hours a week, or take weekends off?
So, why aren’t there more entrepreneurs Dave? Why isn’t everyone a small business owner? If you have one small business owner, and everyone else is also a small business owner, where is the one small business owner going to get employees? Last I checked, entrepreneurs don’t normally hire other entrepreneurs. My sister would be broke if she ran her vet clinic by only hiring other veterinarians. A licensed veterinarian to run the reception desk! Oh, how intelligent that would be.
Not everyone is interested in owning a business and putting in 80+ hours a week. What I was referring to were those people, back when they would have to work 80+ hours a week if they wanted to keep their jobs.
HDB
March 31st, 2010
1:30 pm
Dave R.
March 31st, 2010
1:15 pm
Just posted on the Boston Herald website:
“Cape Wind to buy turbines from GERMAN-based Siemens Corp.”
You know why?? In 1981, the Reagan Administration took away the tax incentives for alternative energy R&D. If that hadn’t happened, GE would’ve poured more into wind turbine technology than it did!!
BTW – Siemens also make CT Scanners that compete with GE….and many hospitals use BOTH systems…..
Seimens also has a regional headquarters in Alpharetta….
jewcowboy
March 31st, 2010
1:32 pm
Dave R.,
“They have to get out of the way of businesses who want to produce by removing any and all regulations that stifle productivity, creativity and profit”
___________________________________________________________________
“Never said that, and you know it.
What we need are LESS regulations, LESS or no taxes on businesses, and LESS government in general.”
Which is it?
stands for decibels
March 31st, 2010
1:35 pm
“Cape Wind to buy turbines from GERMAN-based Siemens Corp.”
Gotta love all those green jobs Hope & Changed promised would happen. Problem is, they’re happening elsewhere!
Siemens does a fair amount of manufacturing in the US; I see that an IL wind-turbine parts plant employs 355 people…
http://www.manufacturing.net/News-Siemens-Building-Wind-Turbine-Parts-Plant-In-Illinois.aspx?menuid=270
There’s nothing in the Globe story to indicate which manufacturing facility would necessarily benefit from this latest deal, though.
md
March 31st, 2010
1:37 pm
“any and all regulations that stifle productivity”
To me, that doesn’t say all regulations, it refers to the ones that stifle productivity.
jewcowboy
March 31st, 2010
1:40 pm
“Cape Wind to buy turbines from GERMAN-based Siemens Corp.”
Gee…wonder why? Could it be that other countries invest more into green energy than the U.S.? Could more U.S. investment in a burgeoning market be what Obama is advocating?
http://articles.chicagotribune.com/2010-03-24/news/sc-biz-0325-energy–20100324_1_clean-energy-investment-clean-energy-fossil-fuels
jewcowboy
March 31st, 2010
1:41 pm
md,
“To me, that doesn’t say all regulations, it refers to the ones that stifle productivity.”
It does when you cut off Dave R’s entire statement…
“They have to get out of the way of businesses who want to produce by removing any and all regulations that stifle productivity, creativity and profit”
See that part about creativity and profit?
HDB
March 31st, 2010
1:42 pm
md
March 31st, 2010
1:14 pm
“but those who did NOT input into the system shouldn’t be able to withdraw from the same system!!”
Good luck with that one. We allow individuals “free” educations as it is, and many choose to forego said education for a less satisfactory lifestyle – and then blame it on others and vote for assistance.
We choose everything we do – and that includes being uneducated and untrained. The system should require that these same individuals choose to re-enter the aformentioned education system in exchange for assistance. Instead, our system enables them, allowing them to remain uneducated and untrained at the expense of society.
————————————————–
md….I’ve always advocated this:
1) Change the welfare rules to KEEP the male unit in the household! That would promote the financial incentive of staying together…and possibly marriage!!
2) Tie the benefits to education, work-training, and job search!!
3) Upon employment, wean the party from the assistance gradually to promote independence.
The system enables those who are on assistance because those are the RULES of the system! (Can’t blame them for playing/playing by the rules) The rules NEED to be changed to discourage the enabling and ENCOURAGE independence!! In the original design, welfare was to be a short-term bridge; it’s grown to be a monstrosity!!
Bosch
March 31st, 2010
1:48 pm
HDB,
Psssst. Over here (waving hand so as to call you over so I can whisper something in your ear)
On your rule #2 and #3 – that’s the way it’s done now.
http://dfcs.dhr.georgia.gov/portal/site/DHS-DFCS/menuitem.5d32235bb09bde9a50c8798dd03036a0/?vgnextoid=2bea2b48d9a4ff00VgnVCM100000bf01010aRCRD
I Report (-: You Whine )-: Impeach Drunken Fool obozo! Just sayin....
March 31st, 2010
1:50 pm
And so they will fight back with the dependable tools of their arsenal. Along with their perplexingly successful practice of demonizing various and sundry American industries in service of class warfare, they are also fond of sowing the seeds of hate and dissension, be it racial or otherwise. And this is more than ironic, since the target of their attacks are usually practicing Christians, whose greatest commandment is to love, yet who are so often accused of all manners of hate. If you are colorblind or not properly race-conscious, you are a white supremacist; if you follow the tenets of your faith, you are a narrow-minded homophobe; and if you are someone who has actually joined the military to defend this country, you might end up on the DOJ’s terrorist watch list.
So, in a way Democrats are right to fear the Tea Party movement. Just as a skunk releases its foul odor when it senses an enemy, so too those who despise our way of government can instinctively smell the tar and feathers that await them; the same treatment their forefathers received at the hands of the original Tea Partiers. But this time, the only act of violence needed to be committed against them will take place in voting booths across the nation on November 2.-AmSpec
Just sayin…
HDB
March 31st, 2010
1:52 pm
Bosch…Thanks for the heads-up!! (Applause!!)
Bosch
March 31st, 2010
1:56 pm
HDB,
You’re welcome. Most people on the blog don’t ever look at the actual eligibility requirements – but rather make unfounded assumptions based on their prejudice of poor people.
Jay
March 31st, 2010
1:57 pm
Fresh meat upstairs…
Bosch
March 31st, 2010
1:58 pm
Jay,
I ate too much for lunch, but thanks.
Jay
March 31st, 2010
2:02 pm
Fresh fruit and vegetables?
Jay
March 31st, 2010
2:02 pm
Oh, I know….
SQUIRREL!!!
Chris D.
March 31st, 2010
2:22 pm
Who Dat…You’re the one that can’t do math….300,000,000 in US = 60,000….3,000,000,000 in China = 600,000…The percentage of engineers graduating is the same you mope
Who dat?
March 31st, 2010
2:35 pm
“The percentage of engineers graduating is the same you mope”
Dern, you’re the third lib today to call me a name. Why do you hate me so much?
Chris D.
March 31st, 2010
2:45 pm
I’m a conservative, mad at you ’cause you said I couldn’t “do math” when I was completely correct in my statement that Chaina is graduating the same percentage of engineers as the US based on populations… Also I kind of doubt, (but can’t back it up at the moment) that China is graduating 600,000 engineers a year…If an engineering school graduates 1,000/per year, that means there are 600,000 engineering schools in China? Really doubt that to be true.
Chris D.
March 31st, 2010
2:46 pm
My math IS bad now…Meant to say 600 engineering schools in China…
HDB
March 31st, 2010
3:19 pm
Bosch…many here have a…(for lack of a better word)…prejudice against the poor because of the FACE that the MEDIA has placed upon the poor: primarily black and in the inner city. Many have not seen the REAL face of the poor: not just black and inner city, but also white in Appalachia, native American and some western reservations, or Hispanic and in the barrio!! Poor people have always been portrayed in a negative light and called a drain on society; for as many people that are poor, there are more than are TRYING to break out of that cycle. IMHO, those who are trying to progress should know that the safety net is strengthened for their endeavors. I’ve been around poor people who used the system to progress…and ultimately, they broke the dependency cycle, becoming teachers, lawyers, judges…….
The truth needs to be told…….
Brett
March 31st, 2010
5:17 pm
Indeed it is. 20 of the past 29 years under Republiscum “leadership.” 2 BushDrunks. You betcha!