Did Petraeus briefing set stage for U.S.-Israel spat?
(See Update below).
Mark Perry, writing in Foreign Policy, reports that American anger at Israel’s position on settlements is driven at least in part by military concerns. By Perry’s account — a version that Pentagon and administration sources seem to be confirming rather than challenging — the change dates back to a January briefing of the Joint Chiefs of Staff by a team from CENTCOM, or Central Command, the command responsible for a region from the Middle East east to Pakistan and Kazahkstan.
“The team had been dispatched by CENTCOM commander Gen. David Petraeus to underline his growing worries at the lack of progress in resolving the issue. The 33-slide, 45-minute PowerPoint briefing stunned (Joint Chiefs of Staff Chairman Adm. Michael) Mullen. The briefers reported that there was a growing perception among Arab leaders that the U.S. was incapable of standing up to Israel, that CENTCOM’s mostly Arab constituency was losing faith in American promises, that Israeli intransigence on the Israeli-Palestinian conflict was jeopardizing U.S. standing in the region, and that (U.S. special envoy George) Mitchell himself was (as a senior Pentagon officer later bluntly described it) “too old, too slow … and too late.”
The January Mullen briefing was unprecedented. No previous CENTCOM commander had ever expressed himself on what is essentially a political issue; which is why the briefers were careful to tell Mullen that their conclusions followed from a December 2009 tour of the region where, on Petraeus’s instructions, they spoke to senior Arab leaders. “Everywhere they went, the message was pretty humbling,” a Pentagon officer familiar with the briefing says. “America was not only viewed as weak, but its military posture in the region was eroding.”
As Perry tells it, that briefing set the stage for Vice President Joe Biden’s trip to Jerusalem; the announcement on the day of Biden’s arrival that 1,600 new apartments would be built in East Jerusalem was not the major cause of the breach, but rather the straw that broke the back of an already overstrained camel.
“But no one was more outraged than Biden who, according to the Israeli daily Yedioth Ahronoth, engaged in a private, and angry, exchange with the Israeli Prime Minister. Not surprisingly, what Biden told Netanyahu reflected the importance the administration attached to Petraeus’s Mullen briefing: “This is starting to get dangerous for us,” Biden reportedly told Netanyahu. “What you’re doing here undermines the security of our troops who are fighting in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. That endangers us and it endangers regional peace.” Yedioth Ahronoth went on to report: “The vice president told his Israeli hosts that since many people in the Muslim world perceived a connection between Israel’s actions and US policy, any decision about construction that undermines Palestinian rights in East Jerusalem could have an impact on the personal safety of American troops fighting against Islamic terrorism.” The message couldn’t be plainer: Israel’s intransigence could cost American lives.
That’s fascinating in a number of ways:
1.) As Perry notes, the stance that Petraeus took is not merely strategic but political in nature, stretching the bounds of his role. Furthermore, the general is not an impetuous sort. He thinks things through very carefully, so he no doubt understood fully the gravity of the message he was sending. That’s also why the White House in turn has taken it so seriously.
2.) “The message couldn’t be plainer: Israel’s intransigence could cost American lives.” That’s the core of the issue. Cast in those terms, the debate becomes much more difficult for the current Israeli government and for those in this country who defend Israel’s pro-settlement policies. And the fact that this message is coming from the U.S. military only compounds its impact.
3.) Reading between the lines of Perry’s piece and its later clarifications, there was a clear decision at high levels, apparently from within the Pentagon, to make this story public. If so, the leak was itself a policy decision, an effort by the military to throw itself publicly behind both the Petraeus warning and the sterner line taken in response by the Obama administration.
UPDATE: In prepared testimony before Congress today, Petraeus essentially confirmed the Foreign Policy report. Addressing what he called the “major drivers of instability, inter-state tensions, and conflict … (that) can serve as root causes of instability or as obstacles to security,” the very first one he listed was:
“Insufficient progress toward a comprehensive Middle East peace. The enduring hostilities between Israel and some of its neighbors present distinct challenges to our ability to advance our interests in the AOR. Israeli-Palestinian tensions often flare into violence and large-scale armed confrontations. The conflict foments anti-American sentiment, due to a perception of U.S. favoritism for Israel. Arab anger over the Palestinian question limits the strength and depth of U.S. partnerships with governments and peoples in the AOR and weakens the legitimacy of moderate regimes in the Arab world. Meanwhile, al-Qaeda and other militant groups exploit that anger to mobilize support. The conflict also gives Iran influence in the Arab world through its clients, Lebanese Hizballah and Hamas.”
Petraeus also pointed out that progress in Middle East peace talks could seriously weaken the power of Iran:
“A credible U.S. effort on Arab-Israeli issues that provides regional governments and populations a way to achieve a comprehensive settlement of the disputes would undercut Iran’s policy of militant “resistance,” which the Iranian regime and insurgent groups have been free to exploit. Additionally, progress on the Israel-Syria peace track could disrupt Iran’s lines of support to Hamas and Hizballah…. As such, progress toward resolving the political disputes in the Levant, particularly the Arab-Israeli conflict, is a major concern for CENTCOM.”
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373 comments Add your comment
josef nix
March 16th, 2010
5:04 pm
I’ll do my part to get us over 200 so the fear of being top won’t stop the fun…
Matilda
March 16th, 2010
5:04 pm
Scout and Del,
I, and most civilians I know, are not only willing to listen, but are truly interested in the stories/experiences/lessons that our veterans have to share with us. That is, when those things are related to us without condscension. I’ve been close to veterans from various branches in multiple generations, and I have observed differences in what and how they think about the military. Frankly, I don’t have a problem showing all of them the respect they deserve.
Drain The Swamp (NIF)
March 16th, 2010
5:07 pm
Scout
According to Westmoreland, we were in Nam to keep the Chi-coms from dominating the shipping lanes in the region. We did that quite nicely. Politics and the media directed our departure, but by then, the shipping lanes were secure and still are.
Drain The Swamp (NIF)
March 16th, 2010
5:11 pm
Bosch
That was very good. It’s all machines. Good for you.
Paul
March 16th, 2010
5:11 pm
NIF
So Army General Westmoreland thought the way to keep sea lanes open was to commit to a land war in Asia?
I think you’ve just answered the question of whether or not today’s military is smarter than the military of 40 years ago -
Del
March 16th, 2010
5:13 pm
Matilda,
If I said anything that sounded condescending it was unintentional.
God Bless and thank you for supporting our armed forces.
Paul
March 16th, 2010
5:13 pm
Sorry, NIF
These are the machines Bosch was thinking of
http://images.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http://www.tvacres.com/images/robots_cylons_humanoid.jpg&imgrefurl=http://www.tvacres.com/aliens_cylons.htm&usg=__tII59eeB440oCvIQbM6NAkLVXFA=&h=400&w=300&sz=113&hl=en&start=1&um=1&itbs=1&tbnid=cmXhfX85P23STM:&tbnh=124&tbnw=93&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcylons%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26rlz%3D1B3GGGL_enUS343US344%26tbs%3Disch:1
http://dialogicdesign.files.wordpress.com/2007/09/cylon-evolution.jpg
AmVet
March 16th, 2010
5:16 pm
That non-explanation as to why American Jews vote against Republicans in overwhelming numbers was overwhelmingly nonsensical.
Methinks many of the conned know, but dare not broach the subject with any intellectual honesty, due to ugly ramifications…
Dusty
March 16th, 2010
5:19 pm
Jackie,
Keep up the counseling. There’s more to be learned.
Bosch,
Methinks you started imbibing a bit early this afternoon. Something “ate your head” and it wasn’t Blondie.
Ahhh and now the BIG question!! Did the evil hands of the clock set stage for my rapturous deluxe family dinner forthcoming??? Yes, they did! A pox on them! Off to the freezer! Let us settle this great dilemma? Fish sticks?? Mini steaks? Nooo! It’s a surge to spaghetti. (See how easy it is to settle these big problems.)
Calll the UN if you have any more questions.
Drain The Swamp (NIF)
March 16th, 2010
5:20 pm
Paul
If Nam had been overrun by the chi-coms. they would have been in a much better location to control those straights, just South of Viet Nam. Should we have gone to war with China instead?
And I heard this years ago in an interview with Westmoreland, so consider that.
Paul
March 16th, 2010
5:20 pm
Kinda slow, so…
“One year into its promise of greater government transparency, the Obama administration is more often citing exceptions to the nation’s open records law to withhold federal records even as the number of requests for information decline, according to a review by The Associated Press of agency audits about the Freedom of Information Act.
Among the most frequently cited reasons for keeping records secret: one that Obama specifically told agencies to stop using so frequently. The Freedom of Information Act exception, known as the “deliberative process” exemption, lets the government withhold records that describe its decision-making behind the scenes.
Obama’s directive, memorialized in written instructions from the Justice Department, appears to have been widely ignored. ”
Can’t even get the bureaucracy to do what he wants? Well, I can see why his administration wouldn’t want the public to see the processes they use –
“PROMISES, PROMISES: Records not so open with Obama”
http://www.breitbart.com/article.php?id=D9EFRPJG0&show_article=1
Paul
March 16th, 2010
5:22 pm
NIF
I don’t think you’ll find many historians who thought the idea of a Chinese invasion was at all realistic.
And I did consider the source being Gen Westmoreland. In my response about today’s military comparison -
I Report (-: You Whine )-: Have A Drink On Us, obozo!
March 16th, 2010
5:22 pm
Mughrabi was the leader of a Fatah PLO terror squad armed with Kalashnikov rifles, RPG light mortars and high explosives, that sailed from Lebanon and landed on a beach between Haifa and Tel Aviv. They first killed a renowned American photojournalist (who was incidentally the niece of U.S. Democratic party Senator Abraham Ribicoff) who was taking nature photos, then hijacked a bus and commandeered another, embarking on a bloody rampage that left 38 Israeli civilians dead, 13 of them children.
Fatah representatives at the ceremony on Thursday described Mughrabi as “a courageous fighter who held a proud place in Palestinian history.”
Just sayin….
Bosch
March 16th, 2010
5:23 pm
Dusty,
Nope – I gave up that evilness for Lent…..I didn’t give up cookies though. I’m high on Samoas, and machines.
Charlie Rangel
March 16th, 2010
5:25 pm
Jay, if Israel stopped all construction, agreed to turn over the West Bank and open Gaza, the Arabs and Palestinians will never make peace, because they will never accept Israel’s existence. They will continue to make war as long as they have support and people look the other way.
Paul, your comments on needed capabilities, their effectiveness, costs, and employment in conflicts confirm that you have an opinion on most everything but know next to nothing about the subject.
DoggoneGA
March 16th, 2010
5:26 pm
“PROMISES, PROMISES”
I guess it’s much easier for me, than it is for you…I never believe a politician’s promises anyway, so I’m never disappointed.
Drain The Swamp (NIF)
March 16th, 2010
5:26 pm
Paul
His great strategy was to defeat the Cong with a war of attrition. You are going to defeat people who are dirt poor by denying them their supplies? What supplies? by the end of the war, more GIs were dying of wounds from American rifles taken by the Cong, than of the AKs they were supposed to be using.
Brakeman
March 16th, 2010
5:26 pm
Headline: “A fifth state – South Dakota – has decided that guns made, sold and used within its borders no longer are subject to the whims of the federal government through its rule-making arm in the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms, and two supporters of the growing groundswell say they hope Washington soon will be taking note.
South Dakota Gov. Mike Rounds has signed into law his state’s version of a Firearms Freedom Act that first was launched in Montana. It already is law there, in Tennessee, Utah and Wyoming, which took the unusual step of specifying criminal penalties – including both fines and jail time – for federal agents attempting to enforce a federal law on a “personal firearm” in the Cowboy State.”
Hummmmm ……………. can’t wait for these test cases to get to SCOTUS !
Paul
March 16th, 2010
5:27 pm
Charlie
Soooooo…..
do a point counter-point.
you up for it?
Drain The Swamp (NIF)
March 16th, 2010
5:27 pm
Doggonew
**I never believe a politician’s promises anyway, so I’m never disappointed.**
That explains a lot. When you support democrats, it is always a good idea to lower your expectations, especially on honesty.
Scout
March 16th, 2010
5:28 pm
Maltilda: Thank you for your kind words but you are a rare example.
Drain The Swamp (NIF) : Good point. Also, remember if the DMZ in Vietnam (53 miles wide) had been bounded on the west by the Sea of Laos, we wouldn’t even be having this discussion.
Paul
March 16th, 2010
5:30 pm
NIF
I really am not much in the mood to go over Westmoreland’s strategy. He lost. Attrition (killing more of them than they kill of us) backfired and helped turn American public opinion against the war.
Wasn’t just him. From the military to the civilians to the Whiz Kids to the policy ‘experts’ – they were all guided by the fears of the time and were largely wrong.
I’ve often thought if Ho called himself a Nationalist instead of a Communist we never would have gone in.
DoggoneGA
March 16th, 2010
5:31 pm
“it is always a good idea to lower your expectations”
It makes no difference, I don’t believe ANY politicians promises. If God himself came to earth and ran for political office, I’d stop believing him too. Because once a someone becomes a politician, I lose my ability to believe any promises they make.
Hillbilly Deluxe
March 16th, 2010
5:31 pm
That’s why I watch such as this the way I do.
And that’s wise on your part. The next time your group might be the target or it might be another group or it might be your group and another group. It’s not that hard to see how it happened the last time.
Paul
March 16th, 2010
5:31 pm
Charlie Rangel
Hello?
Hello?
Drain The Swamp (NIF)
March 16th, 2010
5:33 pm
Scout
If the Democratic Congressmen that were in charge of the war had allowed us to keep conquered ground, we would have been out of there in a couple of years. But a short war wasn’t going to build all those new defense plants in California and yes, Georgia.
I wonder how many kids graduating from high school know anything about the 1968 Democratic Convention in Chicago, and/or why were the anti-war protesters were rioting there instead of San Diego where the RNC convention was held?
josef nix
March 16th, 2010
5:35 pm
AmVet–
I know you want a conservative answer and mine earlier was, well, a bit snippy. American Jews, generally speaking, are of the left liberal bent, the immigrations following the Revolutions of 1848 bringing in the Ashkenazi from Germany and Austria-Hungary in sugstantial numbers. These were urban intellectuals, educated and relatively comfortable in the mainstream society. They were welcomed by and easily assimilated into the pre-existing Sephardic element which had benefitted so greatly from the Lockeian principles of the Carolina Charter and the Virginians, Carolinians and Georgians Jeffersonian liberalism. When the flood of Eastern Europeans came beginning in the 1880s, they were drawn either from the Bundist or Zionist elements and brought with them that brand of radicalism, or from the ghetto-mentality shtettlites just trying to get out of the way of the Cossacks and with little or no political participation in the mainstream.The established Jewish communities found it incumbent to make every effort possible to assimilate into the mainstream “those people.” Every effort was made to one, temper the Socialism of the Bundists and Zionists and at the same time bring the masses into the mainstream as good American citizens. The political party end of it all would naturally have taken on a strong Democrat tinge as it was the Jeffersonian Democrats who had bucked Christian and Islamic traditions by extending unqualified equal rights of citizenship, welcomed Jews into the party and had consistently elected them to public office. Thus, Woodrow Wilson’s actions. The Bundist-Zionists and the unassimilated could see that there was an opening there to be something besides “Jews.”
Tradition!
Drain The Swamp (NIF)
March 16th, 2010
5:35 pm
DoggoneGA
I think the reason why Democrats hate Republicans so much is because they actually do whet they promise, and none of those promises are good for democrats.
Scout
March 16th, 2010
5:36 pm
Drain The Swamp (NIF):
Two more points:
1) We are to China now what we were to Japan in the 1930’s. Stand-by for action.
2) I’m sorry, but you couldn’t be more wrong at your 5:26.
Not only had the American Army been gone for three years when the country fell to the North, but the Viet Cong were decimated during TET 1968. The North Vietnamese actually intended that, as they didn’t want to deal with them when “they” took over.
In addition, and there are many sources you can go to, 90% of the fighting and casualties were between the American military and the North Vietnamese Army (NVA) especially in the DMZ area and Central Highlands. The fighting with the Viet Cong (over time and in total) was only a “side-show”.
Charlie Rangel
March 16th, 2010
5:37 pm
Paul, fire away!
DoggoneGA
March 16th, 2010
5:37 pm
“Republicans so much is because they actually do whet they promise”
No, they don’t. They’re politicians.
Hef
March 16th, 2010
5:38 pm
Off Topic-Fed Govmnt now says its illegal to jog on beaches in S.C. listening to ipods-when will it end.
Scout
March 16th, 2010
5:39 pm
Drain The Swamp (NIF):
Regarding your 5:33 a lot could have been done. For one thing, the dikes at Hanoi could have been bombed and the entire city flooded.
Drain The Swamp (NIF)
March 16th, 2010
5:39 pm
Jesof
I once heard a Jewish guy talking about his good Democrat Family. And going against the family is not good. It is tradition, but that is changing dramatically. The real question is, now that Obama owns the 40% unemployed Black demographic, will Black people actually turn on him.
I’m thinking that they wouldn’t turn on him, no matter what he did.
Hef
March 16th, 2010
5:41 pm
Doggone-Politician & honesty are’nt words that go together like oil & water.
DoggoneGA
March 16th, 2010
5:43 pm
Hef – yep, that’s how I see it too.
Paul
March 16th, 2010
5:44 pm
Uh, Charlie Rangel
Your initial assertion (5:25) was that I have opinion but nothing to back it up. I asked you to substantiate.
Your response of ‘fire away’ is an attempt at specificity?
Hint: pick a post with which you disagree, which you think illustrates ‘opinion but no knowledge’ state what you think is in error and we’ll go from there.
The fact you have to change your moniker to make that comment, then use a term like “fire away” tells me all I really need to know.
Drain The Swamp (NIF)
March 16th, 2010
5:45 pm
Doggone
I once saw a list of broken Bush promises compared to a list of Clinton broken promises. Bush was about a page of small type. Clinton was page after page after page. I think Republicans at least try. I think democrats try, like Obama has tried to close Gitmo. They want to do what they promised, but to please their far left, anti-American fringe, they have to make pretty crazy promises . . . like closing Gitmo without having somewhere else to put the prisoners.
As I have said, they are brilliant politicians. They just suck as leaders.
Akmed
March 16th, 2010
5:46 pm
Aahhh, yes, we told the infidels at the DNC/Pentagon that we were shooting at American soldiers because y’all like thee Jews too much, ew.
And right on cue, Brother obozo, he jumps bad on the Jews. That obozo, he might be an apostate, but he is our apostate.
So, let’s see, what garbage can we feed these fools next, hmmmm – KAAAABOOOM – ah, pardon me, that was Brother Omar blowing up thee children for attending thee evil school, he warned them! Now where was I, oh yeah, how high I want thee obozo to jump?
I know, American soldiers are killing innocent children and shouldn’t be allowed to carry guns on the battlefield, quick, snap to it, carry thee word to the moron Americans, duh.
Allah Akbar!
Yes we can!
mmm, mmmm, mmmmm!
Matilda
March 16th, 2010
5:48 pm
…none of those promises are good for democrats.
Well, since most people who call themselves “democrats” are not actually politicians, but citizens with families who rely on their jobs to survive, schools, infrastructure, health care providers, police and public safety organizations, our friends in the financial industry, and being able to obtain a variety of consumer goods, WHY ON EARTH would they vote for someone whose promises would not be good for them? Just curious as to your theory.
DoggoneGA
March 16th, 2010
5:51 pm
“I once saw a list of broken Bush promises compared to a list of Clinton broken promises”
I’m not interested in comparisons. I think politicians only keep promises by mistake, or because they lost focus. They all lie and they all break their promises. That’s why I can’t get behind the “throw the bums” out movement. Because if you do throw these bums out, you’ll only be electing more bums in their place.
Hef
March 16th, 2010
5:54 pm
Doggone-”electing more bums in their place”-maybe so. But just possibly we might send a message that finaly we’re payin attention and will not put up with the bs.
josef nix
March 16th, 2010
5:54 pm
Hillbilly–
Among students of the Shoah there is the Arendtian paradigm. It maintains that the process which led to the gas chambers was not some complex, unfathomable, but a most simple one played out over and over in every case of just such. It is a four-stage process. Identification. Separation. Concentration. Anihilation. First the group must be identified and determined to be harmful to the greater society. Second, that group must be psychologically and cultural defined as a separate entity in negative terminologies leading to a “need” to quarantine them from the as yet “uninfected” population which calls for the third stage, concentration. From there it is just a step to the anhilation of the “virus.”
A few years back, during the Bosnian War, a couple of my brighter ones did their social science project on “Ethnic Cleansing: Can It Happen Here.” They used the Arendtian paradigm. Their conclusion was not only could it happen here, it has happened here. They chose as their case studies the Cherokee Removals, General Grant’s General Order #11 and the Japanese Internment of WWII. They made the point that in all three cases the power structure had stopped short of stage 4 but that insofar as the first three stages were concerned, their was nothing in the legal structure of our society to prevent it happening again. The two students were a Latvian immigrant Jew and a Cherokee-Jew. They went to the state with their project. They chose it when they came to talk to me wanting to know what was happening in Bosnia, they having from their homes lessons in “keep your guard up. You never know.”
I Report (-: You Whine )-: Have A Drink On Us, obozo!
March 16th, 2010
5:56 pm
I like it, enemy Taliban propagandists demand that we stop liking the Jews so much or else, and obozo and his military geniuses don’t send a reply saying “nuts” or “I regret that I have but one life to give for my country,” no, the grovel and squirm before the puny band of bloodthirsty savages.
How…….unique.
This is the “change” we’ve been waiting for, eh?
DoggoneGA
March 16th, 2010
5:57 pm
“But just possibly we might send a message that finaly we’re payin attention and will not put up with the bs.”
Politicians are also very good at ignoring messages. Comes under the heading of breaking the promise to “listen to their constituents”
notaheretic
March 16th, 2010
5:59 pm
WyldByllHyltnyr, you realize that you are adding things to the Bible to fit your Dispensationalist heresy. Perhaps you might want to think about the eternity of teeth gnashing in the next life.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: Have A Drink On Us, obozo!
March 16th, 2010
6:02 pm
yosef- I notice that you didn’t bother to point out to your charges that being sent up the chimney in ashes is a bit more drastic than being put up in a warm safe camp somewhere, with plenty to eat.
No wonder you have to change their test scores to get them out your hair.
Hef
March 16th, 2010
6:02 pm
Doggone-I think the last 4 pres elections have been a wake up call for many on both sides.There are millions more involved now than ever before. To go foreward means to rid ourselves of the trash,slowly I think this will come. For me,I wish the country would send a massive message and vote out all incumbents this next election. Plant the seed
Paul
March 16th, 2010
6:04 pm
Doggone/GA
[[Politicians are also very good at ignoring messages. Comes under the heading of breaking the promise to “listen to their constituents”]]
Kinda like this health care debacle -
josef nix
March 16th, 2010
6:07 pm
IR/YW
I’m not following you on that 6:02…are you defending Manzanar? As for “up the chimneys in ashes…” The case of Theriesenstadt and the Łódź ghetto are cases in point of what came from “a warm safe camp somewhere with plenty to eat.”
DoggoneGA
March 16th, 2010
6:19 pm
“Kinda like this health care debacle -”
Yes, I agree…but I’m not sure we both mean it in the same way.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: Have A Drink On Us, obozo!
March 16th, 2010
6:20 pm
yosef- Are you really comparing Franklin Delano Roosevelt’s internment of the Japanese to Hitler’s butchery of 6 million or more Jews?
Charlie Rangel
March 16th, 2010
6:23 pm
Paul, for starters your BS comments about airborne capabilities. We maintain that capability for forced entry where helicopters, ships, airfields are not available. The capability to project force over thousands of miles can’t be accomplished by small SOF units, but it can be with a unit like the 82 ABN. The number and mix of units and people required to be parachute qualified are all considered and maintaining that capability is the cost of doing business. The Ranger Bn that parachuted into Afghanistan was part of SOF but certainly not a small unit. Jumping is part of the training so if you know specific examples of waste speak up. Sorry for the delay but some of us have to work.
Scout
March 16th, 2010
6:25 pm
No need for the U.S. Army to train with bayonets anymore …………. Hummmmm ………….
http://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?98976-Outstanding-story-of-British-Bayonet-Charge-in-Basra
josef nix
March 16th, 2010
6:28 pm
IR/YW
It reached stage 3. It’s the same process. It stopped before it reached the point of butchery, yes, but when you can do this to a class of your own citizens, you’ve already gone 3/4 of the way down the road to Sobibor, Srebenica, and Suleimanniyah. As Stalin said, “one death is a tragedy. A million is a statistic.” This is why we have to be vigilant.
Disgusted
March 16th, 2010
6:28 pm
For me,I wish the country would send a massive message and vote out all incumbents this next election. Plant the seed.
Ain’t it strange how the Republican supporters never uttered a peep about throwing out the incumbent Republicans when they were in charge in DC, and now they’re massively for tossing incumbents–predominately Democrats–and replacing them with new people, presumably Republicans?
No special pleading, there. No sir and no ma’am. Just a good ol’ non-partisan anti-incumbent movement.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: Have A Drink On Us, obozo!
March 16th, 2010
6:34 pm
yosef- The dummycrat party has stages 1 and 2 down pat, just sayin….
Is Bookman the new Goebbels?
I Report (-: You Whine )-: Have A Drink On Us, obozo!
March 16th, 2010
6:35 pm
Matter of fact, dummycrat voter housing projects could be considered stage three, and, if you take the high murder rate, they are already at stage 4, just sayin…
j$
March 16th, 2010
6:36 pm
Did Petraeus briefing set stage for U.S.-Israel spat?
No, “This is a test of the obama/biden system. This is only a test.”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RHsw4bi5xg0
Mabus
March 16th, 2010
6:43 pm
Remember the USS Liberty!!
Southern Comfort (متعة الجنوبي)
March 16th, 2010
6:44 pm
josef
I’m trying to catch up with you on languages…
אני לא יודע איך אתה להישאר אז הרגיעה עם הדברים כי אנשים לומר כאן. זה אחד הדברים אודות לכם כי אינטליגנטי אותי.
Franz Ferdinand
March 16th, 2010
6:48 pm
Jews vote Democratic because they don’t agree with the Republican platform of sexism, racism, bigotry, homophobia, and retardism of the mind…..
josef nix
March 16th, 2010
6:50 pm
IR/YW
I would not argue that the two political parties (and plenty of the posters here) don’t operate under the principles of Stage One and are perilously close to Stage Two.
No, I would not call Jay the “new Goebbels.” He’s nowhere that league. I would say he would have fit in well with the editorial board of the Frankfurter Zeitung in the 1930s. Now Sister Cynthia? She’d be right at home at the Voelkische Beobachter and has already amassed a rather impressive record of comments straight from the mouth of Julius Streicher.
Paul
March 16th, 2010
6:50 pm
Charlie Rangel 6:23
No prob. I said the capability maintained by the Army is excessive. Most jumps nowadays – again, this is not about SOF – are more a demonstration of capability than any military necessity. Even those 100 or so soldiers you cited jumping into western Afghanistan (which was in no way a ‘golly guys, we need to get lots of soldiers on the ground right now and there’s just no helicopters or Ospreys or Humvees available…”).
Force projection is one thing. HOW that force is projected is another. Again, if the idea is to get boots on the ground, we have many, many other capabilities that didn’t exist during Vietnam.
My point was, having thousands and thousands of soldiers trained and equipped to parachute, calling in AF planes to haul them, keeping these guys ‘qualified’ for most of their careers, no matter where they’re posted, even if it’s during the last years at a HQ so they can jump every three months and collect 1800 bucks a year is a waste. When multiplied by thousands each year.
You’ve given your opinion, I’ve given mine. You originally said there were many examples. Next?
(if you don’t respond in the next few, I’ll catch up, as I’ve just finished work for the day and will be heading to the gym)
Costanza
March 16th, 2010
6:50 pm
Scout,
Your pure white, hetero, christian army got its arse kicked in ‘Nam, your excuses withstanding….
AmVet
March 16th, 2010
6:51 pm
josef, like Bruno’s yesterday, your response illustrates the historical reasons why American Jews vote against Republicans. This is all well documented.
The question is simple – why in 2010 do American Jews STILL vote anti-Republican in such overwhelming numbers.
This isn’t rocket science.
It just requires a little intellectual honesty…
josef nix
March 16th, 2010
6:53 pm
Franz Ferdinand..
“Jews vote Democratic because they don’t agree with the Republican platform of sexism, racism, bigotry, homophobia, and retardism of the mind…..”
This is one Jew who doesn’t vote for the Republicans for pretty much those reasons. There the same ones for which he doesn’t vote for the Democrats. Six of one, half a dozen of the other.
SoCo—
And you’re doing a fine job of it!
Southern Comfort (متعة الجنوبي)
March 16th, 2010
6:56 pm
josef
Es ist leicht, wenn ich einen Übersetzer habe, die harte Arbeit für mich zu machen.
Paul
March 16th, 2010
7:00 pm
Charlie Rangel
I suppose part of it is, there is a group of people who think Americans need to spend hundreds of billions of dollars a year to meet just about any contingency anybody could think of anywhere in the world, acting as if we’re the only country that can do it and if we don’t, life as we know it will come to an end.
I’m not in that camp. So that means reassessing our requirements, matching up appropriate resources and cutting the rest. If that means thousands of parachutists or hundreds of drone pilots who have to go to USAF pilot training at a cost of millions, or overlapping capabilities in the various services ’cause each one is special, or even employing people to (I kid you not) actually cut news reports from papers or cut and paste from the internet, then photocopy it onto sheets of paper and circulate it around the various levels so people will know what’s going on….
all these things in spite of advances in technologies and other capabilities that render the old ways pretty well obsolete…
well, that’s what we should do.
josef nix
March 16th, 2010
7:02 pm
AmVet…
I still hold the line that it’s tradition…as much as I’d like to give us (and here I mean me and you as much as “them”) more credit, we’re still hidebound by those traditions. Roosevelt sold us down the river, and still, we voted for him in overwhelming numbers…”ithout our traditions, our lives would be as shaky as a fiddler on the roof” Barack Obama trotted out his court Jews Axelrod and Emmanuel and we went right along for the ride. Tradition! The Democrats could bring us another Tish B’Av and, I fear, we’d go right along with it and, and I’ll be honest, I can see it coming…a far distance down the road, but such as this today makes me leery. I don’t trust the Democrats or the Republicans myself…but, then, I am a descendent of Machir the Babylon and Manasseh ben Israel.
Paul
March 16th, 2010
7:04 pm
josef nix
[[I don’t trust the Democrats or the Republicans myself]]
Ever heard of a gentleman by the name of Ralph Nader?
Southern Comfort (متعة الجنوبي)
March 16th, 2010
7:05 pm
“there is a group of people who think Americans need to spend hundreds of billions of dollars a year to meet just about any contingency anybody could think of anywhere in the world, acting as if we’re the only country that can do it and if we don’t, life as we know it will come to an end.”
There are also those who remember Russia spending themselves into collapse trying to do the same.
There are those who see that happening to us and choose to do something about it. Then there are those that see it and choose to do nothing.
It only matters most which one of those groups are in charge of running things. That will determine what happens to us.
josef nix
March 16th, 2010
7:07 pm
SoCo–
Ist dein Uebersetzer eine Maschine? Ein Programm? Wie heisst? Seht’s sehr gut…
Matilda
March 16th, 2010
7:09 pm
“why in 2010 do American Jews STILL vote anti-Republican in such overwhelming numbers.”
I don’t think that’s true in East Cobb. I could be wrong, but I don’t see it.
Jackie
March 16th, 2010
7:09 pm
@Dusty
I will continue my counseling as long as you continue to post.
You ability to obfuscate is profound; can’t understand how you have perfected that skill?
Matilda
March 16th, 2010
7:10 pm
Warum schreiben wir doch auf Deutsch? (ohne Ubersetzer…)
josef nix
March 16th, 2010
7:11 pm
PAUL–
Nader lost me on one of my lunatic fringe issues…I’m the Old Jew Benjamin fro “A Canticle for Leibowitz.” I’m still waiting for the Messiah, an that ain’t him either…”tents mended here!”
Paul
March 16th, 2010
7:13 pm
SoCom
A reason I picked the example I did it because it’s one of those things that seems so small in isolation – just a few bucks a year – but multiply it by thousands of soldiers, all the infrastructure, the ongoing costs in the other services, and cost it over a decade, and it’s a bunch of bucks.
But it seems like such a little thing.
Same is true with all federal departments. And when you point out examples, people come back with ‘but it’s only such and such percent.”
Well take those little programs that amount to that low percent and add them and see what you get.
And when you complete your taxes and see what you’ve paid, think about that line of ‘gee, a few hundred million dollars is only a small amount…”
Paul
March 16th, 2010
7:15 pm
josef
Not a messiah, just an option.
None of them are going to be spot on with each issue, but in total, how do they compare?
Libertarians lost me when they became as doctrinaire as the lalalandleft and the ultraright.
Canticle? I can still see the book cover in my mind’s eye -
josef nix
March 16th, 2010
7:18 pm
Matilda–
Der Moderatorg_tt spricht kein Deutsch. Er spricht Spanisch…!
josef nix
March 16th, 2010
7:20 pm
PAUL–
You read “Canticle!” Unmentionable claims I’m going to Costa Rica to raise blue-headed goats and chunk rocks at anyone who comes calling!
Matilda
March 16th, 2010
7:20 pm
Sehr interessant. Danke!
j$
March 16th, 2010
7:23 pm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Guvo7gUdUnE
Hillbilly Deluxe
March 16th, 2010
7:24 pm
First the group must be identified and determined to be harmful to the greater society.
If a society is already in turmoil or upheavel, it’s all the easier to get to step 1. In my opinion, it can happen anywhere, most any time. Humans being humans. And I’d surmise that once you get past step 1, it gets easier to move to each successive step.
That’s why I think it’s so important to remember that tolerance and do unto others have to go hand in hand. If it’s intolerant for someone else to act a particular way, it’s intolerant for me to act the same way. Doesn’t matter if the two people have different targets, the act is the same. Of course the argument is always “but my cause is just”.
Paul
March 16th, 2010
7:25 pm
josef nix
Sometime in the 70s. I’m a sci-fi kinda guy.
Just keep some Ibuprofen on hand for the shoulder if you have to do a lot of rock chucking. Or if the goats get testy -
Southern Comfort (متعة الجنوبي)
March 16th, 2010
7:26 pm
josef
Es ist eine Internetstelle. Ich kann über zwanzig Sprachen übersetzen.
josef nix
March 16th, 2010
7:26 pm
PAUL–
To answer your question, the Nader faction has a lot to offer, but however much I may agree with much of what they say, and I’ll be the first to admit I’m an extremist, I don’t think they represent the rational middle road which, in my opinion, is where the bulk of our population falls. Heaven forbid I and my ilk (there you are K’chack–:-) ) ever come to power. But I do expect to be heard. When I see a third party which considers what I have to say, I will listen and may even support their candidate. I expect to be marginalized. I am from the margins…but…
Southern Comfort (متعة الجنوبي)
March 16th, 2010
7:28 pm
Paul
I see it on an almost daily basis. I try to ensure I’m giving the most for what I use.
josef nix
March 16th, 2010
7:32 pm
SoCo–
Sagt mir mehr zu St, Elsewhere, bitte…
Hillbilly–
One of the things I keep trying to make a point of to my fellow “labels,” is that in a democratic society where that identification stage is a matter of free will, we often, ourselves, make the move to the separation stage…emphasizing what sets us apart and not what binds us together.
Paul
March 16th, 2010
7:34 pm
oh geez….
Do Democrats have the votes to pass health care?
They’re rolling Student Loan legislation into the health reform vote…….
talk about grasping….
AmVet
March 16th, 2010
7:41 pm
josef, just having a little fun with the right wing sociopaths on the blog.
It’s evil (but fun) watching them squirm when they cannot just slogan their way out of an obvious problem – as in American Jews voting against (almost always) their sorry asses.
And they still can’t figure out why nobody likes them…
josef nix
March 16th, 2010
7:43 pm
PAUL–
In re “Canticle…” I’m not a sci-fi guy, Unmentionable is. It’s been a bone of contention for all these decades and yet, the book which probably has had more impact on me and my worldview than ay other is “Canticle…” We have several copies…on the nightstand, on my desk, on Unmentionable’s desk, in the shelves under three or four categories…
Hillbilly Deluxe
March 16th, 2010
7:44 pm
They’re rolling Student Loan legislation into the health reform vote…….
To change over to the health care discussion for a minute, I think it long ago ceased to be about health care. Now it’s all about what happens in November and who can get the upper hand on who. That’s what disgusts me about both parties; it’s all about obtaining and/or retaining power and little else.
josef nix
March 16th, 2010
7:50 pm
AmVet–
Understood! Those posts from me were more or less intra tribu. I always get tickled when the goyim try to lump us all together. You know the old saying, “where there’s three Jews, there’s seven opinions.” I think that’s one of the reasons they don’t care for us too much. For all that cantankerousness, there’s still a point we come together and “they” are envious of that…just me being a tad on the ethnocentric side. Why do we tend to go for the Democrats? Well, where there’s three Democrats, there’s seven opinions. Tradition!
josef nix
March 16th, 2010
7:51 pm
Hillbilly @ 7:44
Amen, Brother Ben!
Southern Comfort (متعة الجنوبي)
March 16th, 2010
7:57 pm
josef
Ich habe Ihnen eine Erwiderung geschickt.
Time to give the lil sidekick her bath. Check y’all tomorrow…
Everyone behave!!!
Charlie Rangel
March 16th, 2010
8:04 pm
Paul, your opinion of what’s excessive has nothing to do with facts or what’s needed. How do you know what’s excessive? To correct the record, over 200 Rangers assaulted that airfield and over 1000 from the 173d Abn based in Italy parachuted in northern Iraq. Also the need for force projection by air has not changed since Vietnam and the means haven’t significantly changed either. BTW, jump status isn’t maintained unless you’re in a unit and there is no such thing as a career of drawing hazardous duty pay. Where do you get this stuff?
The type and mix of capabilities, regardless of service, is analyzed and re-analyzed every year and every bureaucrat in DC gets a say so. Regardless of your preconceived notions, nobody has the luxury of wasting billions on maintaining unnecessary capabilities.
We haven’t fired a single nuclear missile, but we spend billions to maintain that capability, don’t we?
I don’t know if you’re self-employed or not, but, if not, whoever is paying your salary is getting screwed. See you around if I find something interesting you’ve said that’s wrong. Good night!
Del
March 16th, 2010
8:11 pm
“No better friend, no worse enemy”
Israel has no better friend than the Evangelical Christians. When we’re gone it will no longer matter who the American Jewish community votes for and in fact it won’t matter who anyone else votes for assuming they will still be even able to vote.
Ahmadinejad
March 16th, 2010
8:12 pm
Many thanks to the American people, mainly my Texan hero, for spending much blood and treasure taking out Saddam and giving the land of Iraq to my Shiite brother Al Sadr
jt
March 16th, 2010
8:15 pm
Charlie Rangel -
Actually, the need for force projection by air has changed.
Hyper-sonic tactical rockets are de jour. (no nukes but devestating). You don’t hear much about them for a reason.
The next REAL showdown will be over in minutes. Everything else is just a charade.