What just happened in health care … and what’s next
Politico has a nice piece dissecting who lied, who exaggerated, etc. Its conclusion?
Obama exaggerated. Boehner lied. Reid was incorrect. Ryan is wrong.
An army of partisan fact checkers bombarded the media through seven hours of the health care summit with such deep thoughts — replete with cherry-picked data — confirming the adage that there’s lies, damn lies and statistics.
Some of the jabs were dead on, but some were merely meant to back up partisan talking points. Still, there were plenty of factually challenged statements
The AP’s Alan Fram lays out the history — and future — of reconciliation, the course that Democrats seem increasingly likely to pursue. He writes”
“History shows that with the tables turned, Republicans have embraced the process. Of the 22 reconciliation bills Congress has sent a president since the procedure was first used in 1980, 16 were approved by a Republican-controlled Senate, including for President George W. Bush’s big 2001 tax cut.”
The Center for Public Integrity documents the army of lobbyists recruited to fight the health-insurance reform war in Washington. “… more than 1,750 companies and organizations hired about 4,525 lobbyists — eight for each member of Congress — to influence health reform bills in 2009,” it found.
“Among industries, 207 hospitals lined up to lobby, followed by 105 insurance companies and 85 manufacturing companies. Trade, advocacy, and professional organizations trumped them all with 745 registered groups that lobbied on health reform bills, illustrating the common Washington strategy of special interests banding together to pool money and increase their influence.
Among the most visible organizations in the halls of Congress, AARP deployed 56 in-house lobbyists and two from outside firms to work the issue on behalf of its members. The pro-business U.S. Chamber of Commerce deployed 47 lobbyists, all but eight from outside firms. The corporate titans who direct the Business Roundtable deployed 40, five from outside firms, and the American Medical Association had 33, 11 from outside firms. The data also revealed that the roster of groups trying to mold legislation went far beyond corporate and health care interests to include such unlikely entities as Americans for the Arts, and the International Association of Amusement Parks and Attractions.”
The Wall Street Journal editorial board complains that the session was all just prelude to the already planned use of reconciliation:
“In the end, after all the bipartisan cooing, the President’s 20-minute closing argument explained where the debate really is. Democrats won the election and they are going to do what they want to do, starting next week and on a partisan vote if they can shanghai enough members.
The point of yesterday’s session was to give a soothing, moderate political gloss to a government health-care takeover that will raise costs, greatly expand the entitlement state, and reduce choice and competition—the opposite of everything Mr. Obama claims.”
And the New York Times editorial board reached a similar conclusion about the inevitability of reconciliation, if not about the bill itself:
Here is a basic fact: If the House Democrats voted tomorrow to approve the Senate bill, health care reform would become the law of the land.
The president and Speaker Nancy Pelosi should push the House to accept the fundamentally sound Senate bill. If they still cannot garner enough votes from their own caucus, they should alter the Senate bill slightly with parallel legislation that could be passed with budget reconciliation.
Mr. Obama needs to keep explaining to Americans that this health care reform is critical — to give them security, to hold down costs and ease the strain on federal budgets. His main challenge, and his best chance, for passing it is to get his own party in line.
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272 comments Add your comment
Peadawg
February 26th, 2010
9:05 am
“Obama exaggerated. Boehner lied. Reid was incorrect. Ryan is wrong.”
Typical day in Washington. Conclusion – politicians are scum. They only care about getting re-elected. It sucks that we have these idiots representing us!
Lord Help Us
February 26th, 2010
9:10 am
Pass the bill using reconciliation…let the Republicans run on a platform to repeal the resulting HCR and let the chips fall…
NowReally
February 26th, 2010
9:12 am
Lord Help Us – I stated the exact same thing yesterday. Enough with dealing with those idiots.
It’s time to chop off the olive branch and stick it to them win, lose or draw.
No More Progressives!
February 26th, 2010
9:14 am
“History shows that with the tables turned, Republicans have embraced the process.”
Obama, with polling numbers rocketing straight down, had to some PR/damage control on his “signature legislation.” Inviting Mitch McConnel and the boys to listen to Obama pontificate was Obama’s idea, and it backfired. Lamar Alexander (and others) showed the lefties that there are plenty of good ideas for the taking. For a group that has been completely shut out of the process for the last year, the Republicans showed what we already know: the right thinks with its brain, lefties think with other peoples wallets.
The conclusion: Harry Reid and his ilk came away looking like the amatuers they are.
The Nerve
February 26th, 2010
9:15 am
“The point of yesterday’s session was to give a soothing, moderate political gloss to a government health-care takeover that will raise costs, greatly expand the entitlement state, and reduce choice and competition—the opposite of everything Mr. Obama claims.”
Amen. Bend over America…..
Jenifer
February 26th, 2010
9:19 am
R-E-C-O-N-C-I-LI-A-T-I-O-N.
Ram it down their throats til they choke.
Jenifer
February 26th, 2010
9:20 am
UNIVERSAL HEALTH INSURANCE NOW!
Pokey
February 26th, 2010
9:20 am
Obama got his clock clean and was shown to be the empty suit he is. The GOP knows his and House and Senate bills better than he does. Funny how the Dems wanted to do anything but discuss the specifics of their bills.
Peadawg
February 26th, 2010
9:21 am
“Ram it down their throats til they choke.”
Good luck come November and in 2012!!! moron
Morrus
February 26th, 2010
9:21 am
Vote out the incumbents and start over
jt
February 26th, 2010
9:21 am
Please Harry and Pelosi-
Force us at gun point to buy health insurance.
Please.
Jay
February 26th, 2010
9:22 am
“No more,” you may want to read that Politico piece re: your claim that the GOP “has been completely shut out of the process for the last year.”
Ain’t true:
“House Minority Leader John Boehner tweeted that Democrats “do not implement a single major GOP reform that would lower costs for families and small businesses.”
But three of the 11 pages in the plan President Barack Obama released Monday focus on tackling “waste, fraud and abuse” — chock-full of Republican ideas.
Seven of the 14 proposals in that section are credited to a House bill authored by Illinois Republican Rep. Mark Kirk. Another proposal to create a comprehensive database of sanctions against doctors for misusing Medicaid and Medicare was lifted from the Republican Study Committee.
Obama took the idea for a real-time database of claims — to more quickly detect possible fraudulent payments — from an amendment authored by Illinois Republican Rep. Peter Roskam.”
Jenifer
February 26th, 2010
9:22 am
Did the Baptists ever get out of jail?
Peadawg
February 26th, 2010
9:22 am
All the democrats did yesterday was bring sob stories to use as scare tactics.
Whacks Eloquent
February 26th, 2010
9:22 am
LordHelpUs,
“Pass the bill using reconciliation…let the Republicans run on a platform to repeal the resulting HCR and let the chips fall…”
I am pretty sure the Dems will include non-repeal measures. Though they would likely be found unconstitutional. SCOTUS will be involved if they try this, I am sure of it. We will witness Congressional war as we have never seen it before. Mutually assured destruction, isn’t that the term we used in the Cold War?
Brad Steel
February 26th, 2010
9:23 am
…more than 1,750 companies and organizations hired about 4,525 lobbyists — eight for each member of Congress — to influence health reform bills in 2009. Ack! And to think that SCOTUS just approved free speech for corporations. If you can’t afford a lobbyist, you’re powerless.
How many are fighting for it? Probably just the mighty and powerful contingency that can’t afford it or really need it.
Jenifer
February 26th, 2010
9:23 am
Peadawg,
Didn’t take you long to get started with the personal attacks, did it?
But that’s all you’ve got so…
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
February 26th, 2010
9:24 am
Well, I got up this a.m. and looked around and saw the trailer kind of messy and the missus snoring. But I cheered up and said to myself, at least I’m not married to Sister Dusty.
It looks like the librul Democrats are going to ram this health care bill up us. We’ll get them at the polls in November but it will be too late by then. The only hope is the House Democrats will fuss and fight each other like a bunch of crack addicts arguing over the last rock and not be able to agree enough to pass the Senate bill.
It’s the end of the world as we know it. I’ll never be able to get in to see a Dr., what with all Those People and the illegals jamming up the waiting room. We had a good system that only left out 40 million people or so, but they had to go and ruin it. Heck, I never minded my premium going up every year. The co. paid most of it, so it was mostly free.
Now I got to go finish up the week’s work. All you drunks out there can rest easy. You’ll have plenty of beer waiting for you tonight. Have a good day everybody.
29
February 26th, 2010
9:24 am
ABC Primetime News last night said that the cost of the healthcare reform bill would be 900 trillion dollars over ten years. The amount was clearly written, and the voice over pronounced the number, “trillion” clearly.
This bill has no chance. The numbers. They’re too big to fathom. Smoke comes out of the 600 million ears that comprise the hearing american public. (or is it six hundred trillion ears?)
Lets go to the experts: “The bill will cost a hundred dollars, yeah”. (Rainman)
“The bill will cost one mill…one bill…ONE TRILLION DOLLARS”. (Dr. Evil).
We’e going to need a bigger tax hike.
Joel Edge
February 26th, 2010
9:25 am
Pass this piece of garbage. In about 7 years I look forward to hearing the liberal Dems crying about the consequences of this take over. All of these “good intentions” will do is pave the road a little more. Premiums are gonna go up. Costs are gonna go up. The working American is gonna be a slave laborer to the insurance companies. We’re gonna continue to pour money down a rat hole. It’s gonna take total collapse to straighten this out. Let’s go ahead and get there so we can begin the process.
Pass the d@#n thing.
Peadawg
February 26th, 2010
9:26 am
Jenifer, didn’t take you long to start w/ the nonsense 1-liners, did it? Couldn’t find anything to copy and paste to make yourself sound smarter than you really are?
ty webb
February 26th, 2010
9:28 am
“R-E-C-O-N-C-I-LI-A-T-I-O-N.
Ram it down their throats til they choke.”
Are those your thoughts jenifer, or someone else’s?
Jimmy Carter
February 26th, 2010
9:29 am
Jenifer
February 26th, 2010
9:23 am
Would you prefer he hurl personal attacks to Mrs. Godzilla or Granny Godzilla? Oops, all three of you are the same person.
Lord Help Us
February 26th, 2010
9:29 am
Whacks, where were you when the GOP used reconciliation to pass legislation 16 of the 22 times it has been used since 1980?
retired early
February 26th, 2010
9:30 am
We won the election…right. All we need is 51%… right. The GOP doesn’t want “any” type of health care reform. So…. if you can’t afford health insurance and die…. it’s ok with them.. don’t you get it. These are the same people who are much more likely to approve of torture….you know… the christian Right.
Whacks Eloquent
February 26th, 2010
9:30 am
The Democrats’ claim to have included GOP ideas in their bill is equivalent to a carmaker appeasing PETA by not offering leather seats…
Jimmy Carter
February 26th, 2010
9:31 am
Peadawg
February 26th, 2010
9:26 am
Lighten up a little. Don’t get too mad at Jenifer. She has an identity crisis. After all, she was previously Mrs. Godzilla, then Granny Godzilla, and now Jenifer. She’ll change her “handle” quick enough.
Scooter
February 26th, 2010
9:32 am
Boehner lied. Reid was incorrect
Either they both lied or both incorrect. Am I the only one seeing a little slant here?
Lord Help Us
February 26th, 2010
9:32 am
whacks, the claim is backed up by the evidence of the GOP components that are IN the bill. Your snappy one-liners are ‘factually inaccurate…’
Normal
February 26th, 2010
9:32 am
This post is from the Nation. Read the last six paragraphs. Some GOPers do have good ideas, but their party won’t listen…Please read.
There WILL be a pop quiz!
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/thebeat/534817/the_missing_voices_at_the_healthcare_summit
Jenifer
February 26th, 2010
9:32 am
Obama Bipartisan Health Summit Clears Path to Party-Line Vote
Let’s get it on!
http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=washingtonstory&sid=aMjJ_zQAJ.RU
Jimmy Carter
February 26th, 2010
9:32 am
When will the next summitt take place so I can be reminded repeatedly who the President is?
Whacks Eloquent
February 26th, 2010
9:33 am
LordHelpUs,
“Whacks, where were you when the GOP used reconciliation to pass legislation 16 of the 22 times it has been used since 1980?”
I didn’t refute that, it was not part of my point at all. The GOP did not use anti-repeal measures, which would (or should) be unconstitutional. That’s all I was saying.
Paul
February 26th, 2010
9:35 am
Politico article evidently disproved one of the biggest lies in Democratic talking points – that Republicans haven’t offered any ideas. Not only were they offered, but “Seven of the 14 proposals in that section are credited to a House bill authored by Illinois Republican Rep. Mark Kirk. Another proposal to create a comprehensive database of sanctions against doctors for misusing Medicaid and Medicare was lifted from the Republican Study Committee.
Obama took the idea for a real-time database of claims — to more quickly detect possible fraudulent payments — from an amendment authored by Illinois Republican Rep. Peter Roskam”
I mentioned the other day – it seems the President wanted something bipartisan on reform – after a year was squandered and the process ended not so much with the election of Sen Brown, but because liberal Democrats were at odds with conservative to moderate Democrats. This event gave Democrats cover – they can say they ‘had’ to use reconciliation because of Republicans – ignoring they didn’t have the votes within their party to pass the bill in the first place. But… will liberal House Democrats buy in to the Senate’s much smaller, more conservative measure? Nothing’s guaranteed.
And I can think of nothing worse for Democrats than to have it apparent they couldn’t pass a bill when they had a majority, nor could they pass a bill with a legislative gimmick requiring far fewer votes. This is a dicey game they play.
Lord Help Us
February 26th, 2010
9:36 am
Whacks, the Dems used anti-repeal measures? Any proof?
No More Progressives!
February 26th, 2010
9:36 am
Jay, if you consider “outside looking in” as being included in the process, I guess you’re right.
So far as seriously looking at any ideas from Boehner et al, Obama now has to, as the public is in an uproar and is demanding the two sides work together, which heretofor they have not.
Kinda like how Harry & the boys were so supportive of GWB.
Jay
February 26th, 2010
9:38 am
There’s no such thing as anti-repeal measures. Any law can be undone by a subsequent law.
Outhouse GoKart
February 26th, 2010
9:40 am
Proceed Obama…Nov 2010 draws nigh and from that point forward you will be a cripple. Obama has been in office for over a year and basically his accomplishments amount to a big fat goose egg…as expected!
Jenifer
February 26th, 2010
9:40 am
Health Care Summit: Breaking Updates, Latest News
The republicants committed mass suicide yesterday. And it was fun to watch!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/24/health-care-summit-breaki_n_473945.html
Peadawg
February 26th, 2010
9:43 am
“The republicants committed mass suicide yesterday. And it was fun to watch!”
That’s got to be your thought, right Jenifer? I sounds like something you’d say. Just more nonsense 1-liners from Jenifer.
Paul
February 26th, 2010
9:43 am
All
Let’s not get carried away with who Jenifer ‘really’ is. I was having a bit of fun with @@, okay? There are enough significant, consistent differences in extreme style to support the idea she popped on as a new, yet immediately comfortable, blogger.
Unless, that is, we’re dealing with some pretty severe personality compartmentalization…
Whacks Eloquent
February 26th, 2010
9:43 am
Lord Help Us,
“Whacks, the Dems used anti-repeal measures? Any proof?”
page 1,000 of the Senate version, Section 3403 reads in part: “it shall not be in order in the Senate or the House of Representatives to consider any bill, resolution, amendment or conference report that would repeal or otherwise change this subsection.”
subsection mentioned refers to the regulatory power of the Independent Medicare Advisory Board to “reduce the per capita rate of growth in Medicare spending” to which this monstrosity is tied…
Pokey
February 26th, 2010
9:44 am
Jenifer = A living, breathing slogan/cliche machine
Road Scholar
February 26th, 2010
9:45 am
Jay, you are right about not being able to change a standing law. Just with the word “nonwithstanding” inserted into the new legislation can a law be altered.
Whacks Eloquent
February 26th, 2010
9:46 am
Jay @ 9:38
I’d like to hope that SCOTUS would see it that way. Seems kinda juvenile to try to change the rules after you used them to get what you want. Not saying that about reconciliation – it is valid. Though quite a risky maneuver…
Rightwing Troll
February 26th, 2010
9:47 am
Anybody got any hard facts here? I mean not ipso facto “facts” but good hard facts and solid numbers.
Like:
Number of Jobs created within the Government?
Listing of rights removed from us the people?
Listing of all the tax increases we are suffering under?
Hef
February 26th, 2010
9:47 am
Health Care Reform-1)Illiminate Gov waste/useless regulations 2)minimize & prosecute fraud 3)Cap lawsuits & punish frivolous lawsuits 4)Illiminate funding for Illegals. This will at the min provide an instant 15% decrease in premiums for all. To bad Govnmnt does’nt care about cutting waste and is always happy increasing regulations,and refuses to go after lawyers,and as we all know does’nt give a flip about how many or how much money illegals cost you and me.
USinUK
February 26th, 2010
9:47 am
ah, Jay … there you go again, bringing FACTS into the discussion
Lord Help Us
February 26th, 2010
9:47 am
Whacks, doesn’t change the fact that subsequent laws can repeal or change any part of any bill…deal with it…
Dave R.
February 26th, 2010
9:48 am
Is that your opinion, or did someone write it for you, Jenifer?
ken R
February 26th, 2010
9:49 am
Jay, if both sides got together and went over the bill item for item on c-span then the whole country would know who is working for them and who is not.
We don’t need to pass something that most people don’t understand or want right now, so it takes another 6 Month’s, lets get it right the first time.
The summit was a joke, however both sides made some very good points.
Jimmy Carter
February 26th, 2010
9:49 am
I actually took the time last night to watch some of the talking heads on Fox, MSNBC and CNN talk about who “won” the summit. No surprise, but most pontificators on Fox said the Reps won while most talking heads on MSNBC and CNN said the Dems won. Real surprise there, right?
Kamchak
February 26th, 2010
9:49 am
Amen. Bend over America…..
Oh great—someone else that shares El Rushbo’s obsession.
Good morning Jenifer.
Citizen of the World
February 26th, 2010
9:50 am
Won’t it be nice to know that even if you lose your job you can still get insurance despite a pre-existing condition?
Won’t it be nice to know that if you get really sick, your insurance company won’t be able to rescind your policy because you forgot to put on your application that you had a boil on your butt ten years ago?
Won’t it be nice to know that, even if you are underemployed and underpaid in this tough economy, and your job doesn’t offer an employer-sponsored plan, that you’ll still be able to get insurance for your family through a government-subsidized plan?
Won’t it be nice to know that there are no lifetime benefits limits for your insurance policy and that if you get some horrible illness that costs a fortune to treat you won’t wind up going bankrupt just to pay the doctor bills?
I don’t care who you are, Republican or Democrat, you will be better off if healthcare reform, meaning insurance regulation, makes sure that you are able to get and keep insurance for you and your family.
Normal
February 26th, 2010
9:50 am
Jimmy Carter
February 26th, 2010
9:49 am
But, for sure, the people didn’t win…
Jimmy Carter
February 26th, 2010
9:51 am
Dave R.
February 26th, 2010
9:48 am
Ask Jenifer is Mrs. Godzilla or Granny Godzilla helped her out. Those were her previous post names.
Rightwing Troll
February 26th, 2010
9:51 am
“Obama has been in office for over a year and basically his accomplishments amount to a big fat goose egg…as expected!”
Well then everything is going just as you had hoped isn’t it?
How about a listing of W’s “accomplishments” I mean before “mission accomplished”…
Then mayhaps you can entertain us with an accounting of how McBush/Palin would’ve succeeded where Obama has failed?
Rightwing Troll
February 26th, 2010
9:53 am
We need properity before universal healthcare…
The Nerve
February 26th, 2010
9:54 am
But three of the 11 pages in the plan President Barack Obama released Monday focus on tackling “waste, fraud and abuse” — chock-full of Republican ideas.
Seven of the 14 proposals in that section are credited to a House bill authored by Illinois Republican Rep. Mark Kirk. Another proposal to create a comprehensive database of sanctions against doctors for misusing Medicaid and Medicare was lifted from the Republican Study Committee.”
I thought the Republicans had offer “no” ideas. Being the party of “no” you know.
So is calling them “The Party of No” a lie…or simply incorrect?
Whacks Eloquent
February 26th, 2010
9:55 am
Lord Help Us,
“Whacks, doesn’t change the fact that subsequent laws can repeal or change any part of any bill…deal with it…”
So long as that is the case (and SCOTUS sees it that way), I am happy.
Jimmy Carter
February 26th, 2010
9:55 am
Normal
February 26th, 2010
9:50 am
Absolutely.
USinUK
February 26th, 2010
9:56 am
RWT – “We need properity before universal healthcare”
which is why you need universal health care. if businesses aren’t paying for their workers’ health care, they have more money freed up for staffing / investment / development, leading to a more prosperous country.
just sayin
Jimmy Carter
February 26th, 2010
9:56 am
Rightwing Troll
February 26th, 2010
9:53 am
Harumph, harumph!!
Lord Help Us
February 26th, 2010
9:56 am
Congrats Whacks! One less delusional Boogeyman issue to keep you up at night…
Anymore we can help out with?
Doggone/GA
February 26th, 2010
9:56 am
“Whacks, the Dems used anti-repeal measures? Any proof?”
Oh, come on now…he SAID it, it just MUST be true: “I am pretty sure the Dems will include non-repeal measures”
USinUK
February 26th, 2010
9:57 am
not jimmeh – fwiw, I don’t think jenifer is Mrs / Granny Godzilla
Hef
February 26th, 2010
9:57 am
The Nerve-Jay is on a “oh Sh*t,”just da*n” break
jefferson
February 26th, 2010
9:58 am
“All we want is an up and down vote” …. heard that before GOP?
Citizen of the World
February 26th, 2010
9:58 am
The Democrats haven’t said that the Republicans didn’t have any ideas.
It has been the Republicans saying that the Democrats didn’t *listen* to any of their ideas.
But yes they have, and many of them — the ones that make sense — are even in the bills.
The Nerve
February 26th, 2010
9:59 am
Kamchak
February 26th, 2010
9:49 am
“Amen. Bend over America…..
Oh great—someone else that shares El Rushbo’s obsession.”
Mr. Chak…..I wouldn’t even know what station to tune in to listen to Rush. I have no interest in what he has to say. Never listened to him, never read him, never watched him. My problem is our so-called leaders ramming legistlation down our throats. If it could pass on it’s own, fine, but to begin manipulating the system is not kosher. From either party.
Drain The Swamp (NIF)
February 26th, 2010
9:59 am
Rightwing Troll
**Then mayhaps you can entertain us with an accounting of how McBush/Palin would’ve succeeded where Obama has failed?**
They would have concentrated on jobs and lowering the tax burdens on businesses so they could afford to hire people back, not spend the entire first year taking over GM and trying to force a horrible health insurance reform bill and more penalties for the Al Gore Global Warming scam.
joe matarotz
February 26th, 2010
9:59 am
What happened? Nothing. Another typical day in DC as the country languishes while the scum stroke their egos. Gotta love it.
Hef
February 26th, 2010
10:00 am
I agree with USinUK,I don’t think Jennifer is Granny either. I heard someone say Granny spends most of her time now with her evil twin Cynthia Tucker.
Dave R.
February 26th, 2010
10:00 am
Jimmy, I’m not sure I buy into the Mrs. Godzilla or Granny Godzilla thing with Jenifer. I always had a better chance of having a semi-intelligent discussion with Mrs. G., but Jenifer?
There’s no – there – there with Jenifer.
Jimmy Carter
February 26th, 2010
10:00 am
USinUK
February 26th, 2010
9:56 am
Okay, so you think if businesses don’t have to pay for healthcare then all that money will be reinvested in staffing/investment/development. Using that logic, the same could be said for corporate tax cuts.
jefferson
February 26th, 2010
10:01 am
How is majority rules manipulating the system?
Hef
February 26th, 2010
10:01 am
Cit/of/world- So I guess the repubs created the “party of no” crap? Try again
USinUK
February 26th, 2010
10:01 am
the nerve – “My problem is our so-called leaders ramming legistlation down our throats”
I don’t know if you’ve heard – but 60% is not a majority – 51% is. you only need 2/3rds when you have a threat of filibuster.
in other words, 51% isn’t “ramming it down your throat” (my-oh-my, I think someone has some serious psycho-sexual issues they may need to deal with … )
Drain The Swamp (NIF)
February 26th, 2010
10:03 am
Jebifer
**R-E-C-O-N-C-I-LI-A-T-I-O-N. Ram it down their throats til they choke.**
I completely agree. There may be 100 Americans left that still don’t believe that this administration is made up of fascists. Illegally pushing this abortion of a bill through should take care of that.
USinUK
February 26th, 2010
10:03 am
not jimmeh – “Okay, so you think if businesses don’t have to pay for healthcare then all that money will be reinvested in staffing/investment/development. Using that logic, the same could be said for corporate tax cuts.”
corporations should get a break only if the military doesn’t defend them, the fire service doesn’t save them, the police don’t protect them, road maintenance, etc …
jefferson
February 26th, 2010
10:03 am
You can go forward or be left behind…
USinUK
February 26th, 2010
10:05 am
oh, and by the way … a little good news for your Friday … Q409 GDP was even BETTER than the 5.7% originally reported … in fact, it was an annualized 5.9%.
USinUK
February 26th, 2010
10:06 am
(oh, and for those keeping score at home – Q4 GDP was the best performance in 6 years)
jt
February 26th, 2010
10:07 am
“So is calling them “The Party of No” a lie…or simply incorrect?”
It was a “conscious effort to deceive “,
and that is unacceptable as per Bookman.
Normal
February 26th, 2010
10:08 am
From Newsweek. Some “factual malpractice” in the Health Care Summit.
Beleive it or not, both sides lied!
http://www.newsweek.com/id/234173
Drain The Swamp (NIF)
February 26th, 2010
10:08 am
USinUK
**which is why you need universal health care.**
What about this crap that they are pushing on us even resembles Universal Health Care? Everyone keeps calling it that, but it isn’t health care and it certainly isn’y universal.
Tax target
February 26th, 2010
10:09 am
At the end of the day it all comes down to arrogance, “we have to get a bill passes”, and the never ending “I” and “Me” — Obama At Health Care Summit: “I Don’t Count My Time Because I’m The President”…
Doggone/GA
February 26th, 2010
10:09 am
“So is calling them “The Party of No” a lie…or simply incorrect?”
Neither. Yes, they got revisions accepted into the bill…but they’re response to that is still: “not just no, but HELL no”
Charles Corley
February 26th, 2010
10:10 am
It’s simple. In 1964, Mr. Johnson, found himself unable to get the MEDICARE bill out of the ways and means committee. The reason was the AMA teamed up with the tobacco lobby, which wanted money for medical studies to squelch a rumor that tobacco was bad for your health. The AMA provided the money out of research funding. To win passage, Mr. Johnson was forced to allow doctors to charge reasonable and customary fees and to allow hospitals to include some capital costs to their fees. The era of soaring medical costs had began. Doctors started buying and building hospitals. $50,000 for 4 hours.on my heart was tooooooo much. The AMA says they will quit if we go to a mediare form of medicine. India has 500,000,000 well educated, middle class MD’s and PHD’s ready to go. Let’s put the blame where it should be. Getting in med school is still a controlled substance. 70% of the openings go to md’s kids.
Drain The Swamp (NIF)
February 26th, 2010
10:12 am
Doggone
**Neither. Yes, they got revisions accepted into the bill…but they’re response to that is still: “not just no, but HELL no”**
Your problem is that most Americans don’t mind the word “no”. If Germany would have said no in 1933 . . . well, you know the rest. Yes, means “buy the crap, shut up and just go along with what you are being told by the government and corrupt media”.
Dave R.
February 26th, 2010
10:14 am
Not what the libs want to hear. . .
http://newsbusters.org/blogs/anthony-kang/2010/02/25/cato-scholar-private-accounts-only-answer-social-security-pensions
Jimmy Carter
February 26th, 2010
10:14 am
USinUK
February 26th, 2010
10:01 am
So you’re saying your friend Jenifer has issues, right?
Pennsylvanian
February 26th, 2010
10:14 am
Normal – Been meaning to ask you about your post a while back re: becoming a Harley mechanic. I have an electronics degree and I wrench some myself. You ride? HOG member?
Lord Help Us
February 26th, 2010
10:15 am
Nuttin’,
Does “buy the crap, shut up and just go along with what you are being told by the government and corrupt media” refer to ANY legislation that comes thru Congress or just legislation from the Dems?
Jimmy Carter
February 26th, 2010
10:15 am
USinUK
February 26th, 2010
10:05 am
Uh oh, the stats game. Let’s see. Yesterday, unemployment claims went up. Today, the GDP shows growth. So, if I use stats, a rise in unemployment will result in a growing GDP.
Normal
February 26th, 2010
10:16 am
Jay Why is my 1014 under moderation. Everybody likes Mark Twain.
Drain The Swamp (NIF)
February 26th, 2010
10:16 am
Normal is a Harley Mechanic? Now that is a business that could never fail.
I had one. It was broken 95% of the time. My riding partners finally told me to get a rice burner or give it up. I bought a Honda 750K. More power, better ride, better handling and it never broke.
USinUK
February 26th, 2010
10:17 am
NIF – “What about this crap that they are pushing on us even resembles Universal Health Care?”
I totally agree. that’s why I’m saying what you really need is universal health care.
not jimmeh – “So you’re saying your friend Jenifer has issues, right?”
to paraphrase Lloyd Benson, “she is no Mrs. Godzilla” … as for issues, honey, ALL god’s chillun got issues … some are just a little more … ummmm … interesting … than others …
Normal
February 26th, 2010
10:18 am
Pennsylvanian
February 26th, 2010
10:14 am
I ride, but not lately. Talking my wife into another one now. Not a HOG member, I can’t afford Harleys and I have a thing for Triumphs.
Wanted to be a Harley Mechanic, because they do make big bucks…
Jimmy Carter
February 26th, 2010
10:19 am
Dave R.
February 26th, 2010
10:00 am
I think they are the “three faces of eve”. Mrs. G had some wit about her, but that was diminished when she became Granny G, and now it’s at the bottom with Jenifer. Perhaps Granny G started playing with her grandchild and just go lazy on this blog.
Scooter
February 26th, 2010
10:19 am
Normal
February 26th, 2010
10:08 am
Too bad we can’t hook them all up with a lie detector and shock collar before they speak I’d bet none of them would want thier turn on the soap box.
USinUK
February 26th, 2010
10:20 am
not jimmeh – “Yesterday, unemployment claims went up. Today, the GDP shows growth.”
first of all, yesterday was first-time filers – (as is every thursday) – and, if you read the reports, they were up because the states are clearing a snow-buildup-backlog that’s similar to what we saw right after cmas …
and, as I’ll continue to say until it sinks in … unemployment is a lagging indicator – it takes an average of 2 years for unemployment to get back down to normal levels after you exit a recession.
Normal
February 26th, 2010
10:20 am
NIF, a while back on the blog I said if I had it to do all over again, I’d forgo my electronics degree and become a Harley Machanic…
Citizen of the World
February 26th, 2010
10:21 am
Hef @10:01, actually, yes, the Republicans did create the “Party of No” crap. Of course, they didn’t call themselves that, but they earned the title by pretending they wanted to cooperate, getting concessions in a bill (like the stimulus) and then voting no anyway! Now it looks like they’re planning to do the same with the health care reform bill. No, no, no.
Jimmy Carter
February 26th, 2010
10:21 am
USinUK
February 26th, 2010
10:17 am
Perhaps I should have been more clear. Look at Jen’s first post at 9:19. And you thought those sentiments may reveal someone with a “psycho” issue.
extremerightwing
February 26th, 2010
10:22 am
dims had a whole year where they had super majorities in both chambers of Congress and the White House and they didn’t pass their health care bill. now they are resorting to reconciliation, which it was not designed for according to Senator Byrd. this is kind of like the home team blaming the refs for a loss in a ballgame. it doesn’t pass the smell test.
USinUK
February 26th, 2010
10:22 am
not jimmeh – maybe someone needs decaf … ???
Drain The Swamp (NIF)
February 26th, 2010
10:23 am
USinUK
If they could figure out away to do that. I would agree, but the clowns I saw yesterday at that summit couldn’t govern a Boy Scout Troop.
Kamchak
February 26th, 2010
10:23 am
Mr. Chak…..I wouldn’t even know what station to tune in to listen to Rush. I have no interest in what he has to say. Never listened to him, never read him, never watched him.
Didn’t say you did–I said you share his obsession.
Ewwwwwwwww.
My problem is our so-called leaders ramming legistlation down our throats.
That may well be, butt, (pun intended) it was the other end that you are obsessed with. Why are conservatives fixated on the “bend over” metaphor?
If it could pass on it’s own, fine, but to begin manipulating the system is not kosher. From either party.
Using that particular metaphor is not equivalent to “manipulating the system.”
Jimmy Carter
February 26th, 2010
10:23 am
Doggone/GA
February 26th, 2010
10:09 am
As you are so often fond of saying, do you have a link with that “HELL no” republican quote?
USinUK
February 26th, 2010
10:24 am
Normal – “NIF, a while back on the blog I said if I had it to do all over again, I’d forgo my electronics degree and become a Harley Machanic…”
I’d love to be a baker … except for the hours …
Well
February 26th, 2010
10:25 am
What is a lie, if not simply a truth that has been distorted and twisted to the point where it may or may not remotely resemble truth any longer. So, clearly, all lies are actually truth.
Normal
February 26th, 2010
10:25 am
From Mark Twain…
HEALTH
He had had much experience of physicians, and said “the only way to keep your health is to eat what you don’t want, drink what you don’t like, and do what you’d druther not.”
USinUK
February 26th, 2010
10:26 am
NIF – “the clowns I saw yesterday at that summit couldn’t govern a Boy Scout Troop”
well, criminey, most of them haven’t ever held down much of a real job (BOTH sides of the aisle, mind you) – what do you ’spect???
Williebkind
February 26th, 2010
10:26 am
Obama once again proved the progressive liberals are attempting to create a sociallist government. How can you AJC bloggers keep blaming the conservatives when it is the democratic party that can not pull together to pass this outrageous healthcare bill? The progressive liberals sure are patient! Pass the healthcare bill then lose the elections and wait again to get control of congress and pass some more progressive bills. I think the democrats are trying to take back their party. If I am correct, Obama will become a lame duck president in his third year.
Finn McCool
February 26th, 2010
10:27 am
I’d love to be a baker … except for the hours …
I’d love to be a conservative, but alas, I must take the high road instead.
Normal
February 26th, 2010
10:27 am
Another from ol’ Mark…
There are people who strictly deprive themselves of each and ever eatable, drinkable and smokable which has in any way acquired a shady reputation. They pay this price for health. And health is all they get for it. How strange it is. It is like paying out your whole fortune for a cow that has gone dry.
Drain The Swamp (NIF)
February 26th, 2010
10:28 am
Lord Help Us
**Does “buy the crap, shut up and just go along with what you are being told by the government and corrupt media” refer to ANY legislation that comes thru Congress or just legislation from the Dems**
There are ways to tell what is crap and what is legit. It it breaks the bank, raises taxes and the majority of Americans are against that particular bill, it is crap. This is crap.
Normal
February 26th, 2010
10:28 am
OK Jay, My 1027 narrowed it down. Whay was this quote moderated? Blog God be crazy, me thinks…
USinUK
February 26th, 2010
10:29 am
Normal – I’ll see your Mark Twain and raise you a Will Rogers:
“Democrats never agree on anything, that’s why they’re Democrats. If they agreed with each other, they would be Republicans.”
Drain The Swamp (NIF)
February 26th, 2010
10:29 am
Finn Not Col
**I’d love to be a conservative,**
We know. Sorry. Some are smart enough. Some aren’t.
But now we understand the bitterness.
Pennsylvanian
February 26th, 2010
10:31 am
Normal – Good luck with the Boss, Two, brother. NIF – Late Harleys are very reliable. Harley mechanics make money because people spend a lot on their toys. I just paid $1200 for stage 1 upgrades and dyno tune.
Drain The Swamp (NIF)
February 26th, 2010
10:31 am
USinUK
**well, criminey, most of them haven’t ever held down much of a real job (BOTH sides of the aisle, mind you) – what do you ’spect???**
See? We do agree on stuff.
Jimmy Carter
February 26th, 2010
10:31 am
USinUK
February 26th, 2010
10:03 am
Your analogy doesn’t make since.
You said that if US corporations did not have to pay for health care they would invest that money back into the business creating job growth. I was merely pointing out that the same concept would apply to an equitable corporate tax cut. If they pay less in taxes, then they’ll invest that money back into the business. (I’m for neither of the above, by the way).
What you failed to do is identify just where the money will come from to pay for a socialized healthcare package. If you want businesses to no longer pay for healthcare, well then just who will? (I know it’s me and a couple hundred more million citizens, but I just want to hear what you say).
Lord Help Us
February 26th, 2010
10:32 am
Nuttin’, then be honest…the difference is how YOU see it…
BTW: GWB’s tax cuts don’t pass your own litmus test…(hint: that legislation ‘broke the bank’)
Doggone/GA
February 26th, 2010
10:34 am
“do you have a link with that “HELL no” republican quote?”
Nope
Normal
February 26th, 2010
10:35 am
USinUK, my favorite Will Rogers..
I am not a member of any organized political party. I am a Democrat.
Jimmy Carter
February 26th, 2010
10:35 am
Doggone/GA
February 26th, 2010
10:34 am
Didn’t think so. Just your opinion in quotation marks. LOL!!
SOUTHERN ATL
February 26th, 2010
10:38 am
Members of Congress will never have to worry about healthcare because WE THE CITIZENS have them covered…We pay the premiums with our tax dollars.If they had to pay the expensive premiums or be denied care, the circumstances/arguments would be more balanced…
Federal Employees Health Benefits Program
As soon as members of Congress are sworn in, they may participate in the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program (FEHBP). The program offers an assortment of health plans from which to choose, including fee-for-service, point-of-service, and health maintenance organizations (HMOs). In addition, Congress members can also insure their spouses and their dependents.
Not only does Congress get to choose from a wide range of plans, but there’s no waiting period. Unlike many Americans who must struggle against precondition clauses or are even denied coverage because of those preconditions, Senators and Representatives are covered no matter what – effective immediately.
And here’s the best part. The government pays up to 75 percent of the premium. That government, of course, is funded by taxpayers, the same taxpayers who often cannot afford health care themselves.
Read more at Suite101: Health Care for U.S. Congress: Politicians Receive the Country’s Best Care – at Taxpayers’ Expense http://public-healthcare-issues.suite101.com/article.cfm/health_care_for_the_us_congress#ixzz0gelwL7PT
RW-(the original)
February 26th, 2010
10:38 am
I’m pretty sure Harry Reid’s exclamation that nobody was talking about reconciliation falls under the lie category since Harry Reid is on tape from six days earlier saying they might use reconciliation.
How about Obama’s little demonization of insurance when he said he was just out of school and driving a beater? He said he bought the minimum legal insurance and then when he got rear ended his insurance company laughed at him rather than pay to get his car fixed. That’s pretty telling because if he bought minimum coverage it would only cover damage he did to someone else and if he was rear ended, as he claims, the other drivers insurance should have been the one to call. Do we really want someone who has that degree of understanding “reforming” our health care coverage?
Hot Air gave this one the Obamateurism of the Day
Doggone/GA
February 26th, 2010
10:38 am
“Just your opinion in quotation marks”
Well, sort of. It’s a quote, very famous one in the South, which I took the liberty of attributing to the party of no.
Scooter
February 26th, 2010
10:38 am
I bought a Honda 750K
Riding a Honda is like riding a fat girl because it is fun and you don’t want your friends to know you did it.
Dave R.
February 26th, 2010
10:39 am
Normal, my favorite Groucho Marx quote:
“I won’t join any club that would have me as a member”.
Drain The Swamp (NIF)
February 26th, 2010
10:40 am
Normal
**NIF, a while back on the blog I said if I had it to do all over again, I’d forgo my electronics degree and become a Harley Machanic…**
The one I owned was an AMF. They should have stuck to making bowling balls. When I sold it, it had a bolt lose in the tranny and I still got enough to buy a really nice 750K. I finally gave up riding after the 10,000th close call. My problem is that I loved the speed.
I learned how to work on cars by owning 5 Fiats. Only the last one was really bad, a 128, the forerunner of the Yugo. We bought it new and the next morning, there was a puddle of oil under the car. Almost a quart had leaked out. It required a complete engine swap and they NEVER got it right. But I loved the 850 Spyder and the 124 Sport Coupe. The 124 was a screamer. Two webers, big cams, Abarth Exhaust which sounded perfect at about 7,000 rpms.
Mick
February 26th, 2010
10:40 am
NIF
America is still a great country, the germany comparision is a non starter. I like president obama, tear him down all you want, that is your right. He did choose to tackle a tough issue. This thing with the teleprompter exposes if you are a cheap shot artist. Substance is what I’m looking for and I do applaud the stimulus and disagree with afghanistan.
Here’s a thought, the way some rag on the president here just see if you can start a political career and rise to be elected president. In all fairness, it take a herculean effort, thick skin and a heckuva an ego to make it. Once you arrive as md likes to state they give you the holy shi**ite file and then you proceed to carry the weight of the country for four years. I did not care for bush but he served this country and did the best he could. I respect that he’s letting this president find his way without injecting his views into the media.
USinUK
February 26th, 2010
10:40 am
Normal – that’s mine, too!
not jimmeh – just pointing out that corporate taxes are needed to support the services they use (as opposed to funds used to provide health care benefits). as for where the money comes from, we pay National Insurance which covers our NHS and SS. (and my total taxes are roughly the same as what I paid in the US)
USinUK
February 26th, 2010
10:41 am
DAve R – great quote and great motto!!
ty webb
February 26th, 2010
10:41 am
being a member of neither party, I could really get behind this whole “Party of No”. Where can I sign up. I only wish we heard more of it in the past, and hope to hear even more in the future(regardless of who’s president).
Normal
February 26th, 2010
10:41 am
Dave R.
February 26th, 2010
10:39 am
Dave,
That’s why I’m not in politics…
Dave R.
February 26th, 2010
10:42 am
Ooooh, Scooter, you’re gonna get into so much trouble with your 10:38!
Whacks Eloquent
February 26th, 2010
10:42 am
SOUTHERN ATL @ 10:38,
Thanks a lot for reminding me of that travesty! What the hell have they done that they deserve any kind of extended lifetime benefits? Seriously. And I don’t give a darn which side came up with it, nobody has tried to shut it down, so all are equally guilty IMO. Wish SCOTUS would take up that one, but who will bring it before them?
M Percy
February 26th, 2010
10:45 am
Let’s look at the bills that have been passed using reconciliation:
Wikipedia says Reconciliation bills have included:
* Omnibus Reconciliation Act of 1980, Pub.L. 96-499 (1980)
* Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1981, Pub.L. 97-35 (1981)
* Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1982, Pub.L. 97-253 (1982)
* Tax Equity and Fiscal Responsibility Act of 1982 (TEFRA), Pub.L. 97-248 (1982)
* Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1983, Pub.L. 98-270 (1984)
* Deficit Reduction Act of 1984 (DEFRA), Pub.L. 98-369 (1984)
* Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1985 (COBRA), Pub.L. 99-272 (1986)
* Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1986, Pub.L. 99-509 (1986)
* Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1987, Pub.L. 100-203 (1987)
* Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1989, Pub.L. 101-239 (1989)
* Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1990, Pub.L. 101-508 (1990).
* Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act of 1993, Pub.L. 103-66 (1990).
* Balanced Budget Act of 1995, H.R. 2491 (vetoed December 6, 1995)
* Personal Responsibility and Work Opportunity Act, Pub.L. 104-193 (1996)
* Balanced Budget Act of 1997, Pub.L. 105-33 (1997)
* Taxpayer Relief Act of 1997, Pub.L. 105-34 (1997)
* Taxpayer Refund and Relief Act of 1999, H.R. 2488 (vetoed September 23, 1999)
* Marriage Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2000, H.R. 4810 (vetoed August 5, 2000)
* Economic Growth and Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2001 (EGTRRA), Pub.L. 107-16 (2001)
* Jobs and Growth Tax Relief Reconciliation Act of 2003, Pub.L. 108-27 (2003)
* Deficit Reduction Act of 2005, Pub.L. 109-171 (2006)
* Tax Increase Prevention and Reconciliation Act of 2005 (TIPRA), Pub.L. 109-222 (2006)
* College Cost Reduction and Access Act of 2007, Pub.L. 110-84 (2007)
And let’s look at the Byrd rule (named after the famous Democrat).
Reconciliation generally involves legislation that changes the budget deficit (or conceivably, the surplus). The “Byrd Rule” (2 U.S.C. § 644, named after Democratic Senator Robert Byrd) was adopted in 1985 and amended in 1990 to outline which provisions reconciliation can and cannot be used for. The Byrd Rule defines a provision to be “extraneous” (and therefore ineligible for reconciliation) in six cases:
1. if it does not produce a change in outlays or revenues;
2. if it produces an outlay increase or revenue decrease when the instructed committee is not in compliance with its instructions;
3. if it is outside the jurisdiction of the committee that submitted the title or provision for inclusion in the reconciliation measure;
4. if it produces a change in outlays or revenues which is merely incidental to the non-budgetary components of the provision;
5. if it would increase the deficit for a fiscal year beyond those covered by the reconciliation measure, though the provisions in question may receive an exception if they in total in a Title of the measure net to a reduction in the deficit; and
6. if it recommends changes in Social Security.
Any senator may raise a procedural objection to a provision believed to be extraneous, which will then be ruled on by the Presiding Officer, customarily on the advice of the Senate Parliamentarian. A vote of 60 senators is required to overturn the ruling. The Presiding Officer need not necessarily follow the advice of the Parliamentarian, and the Parliamentarian can be replaced by the Senate Majority Leader.
Reconciliation is *not* the vehicle that should be used to pass the health-care bill. Give it a shot if you want, but the results might not be what you want and the precedent set will be a dangerous one. Democrats will someday not be the majority, and will likely rue the day they dismantled the process that allows the minority part to still have some say in how the country is run. Mob rule benefits no one.
USinUK
February 26th, 2010
10:47 am
ty – the party of “no” is just so … rude … I mean, who raised these people? shouldn’t it be the party of “no, thank you”?
Eva
February 26th, 2010
10:47 am
I wonder what would have if these politicians, actually had to pay for their health care. I’m talking out of pocket cost. I was watching undercover boss a few weeks ago. Let one of our politician try going to applying for ACHHS or some other type of common health plan and see what happens to them. I believe, we-all americans, need a health plan that we can all work with. Our insurance premiums and out of pocket costs are going up as well as our medications. Even if you are on ACHHS or on some type of common health insurance. Has anyone seen how these people get treated? They get put at the end of the waiting list.
Scooter
February 26th, 2010
10:48 am
Ooooh, Scooter, you’re gonna get into so much trouble with your 10:38!
Jimmy Carter
February 26th, 2010
10:48 am
USinUK
February 26th, 2010
10:40 am
I’m a conservative who holds the following beliefs about a few relevant issues. If you will, please let me know yours.
(1) I was against the Iraq War from the get go. If it was “blood for oil” as some fanatics screamed, just how much oil did we get?
(2) I was for the Afghan War, and so is Obama.
(3) Against the healthcare plan that was passed by the Senate as well as the one passed in the House. Bad mojo. Too many “bought” votes.
(4) I’m for cutting ALL programs to some extent to get us to a balanced budget.
(5) I’m against deficit spending as a way of life. There may truly be limited times when it is applicable, but not as an annual exercise.
M Percy
February 26th, 2010
10:48 am
Jay, you may be right, but the bill includes text intended to make it unrepealable by creating rules-of-order for the Senate and House:
“It shall not be in order in the Senate or the House of Representatives to consider any bill, resolution, amendment, or conference report that would repeal or otherwise change this subsection.”
HR3590 Section 1304 subsection (d)
‘‘(d) CONGRESSIONAL CONSIDERATION.—
‘‘(1) INTRODUCTION.—
‘‘(A) IN GENERAL.—On the day on which
a proposal is submitted by the President to the
…[snip 3 pages of text]…
‘‘(B) LIMITATION ON CHANGES TO THE
BOARD RECOMMENDATIONS IN OTHER LEGISLA
TION.—It shall not be in order in the Senate or
the House of Representatives to consider any
bill, resolution, amendment, or conference re
port (other than pursuant to this section) that
would repeal or otherwise change the rec
ommendations of the Board if that change
would fail to satisfy the requirements of sub
paragraphs (A)(i) and (C) of subsection (c)(2).
‘‘(C) LIMITATION ON CHANGES TO THIS
SUBSECTION.—It shall not be in order in the
Senate or the House of Representatives to con
sider any bill, resolution, amendment, or con
ference report that would repeal or otherwise
change this subsection.
Disgusted
February 26th, 2010
10:48 am
As soon as members of Congress are sworn in, they may participate in the Federal Employees Health Benefits Program (FEHBP).
The same is true of all federal employees, Southern Atl. Members of Congress get no special insurance breaks. They pay an employee’s share of the premiums and the federal government picks up the rest, just as a corporate employee pays a share and the corporation picks up the rest. The only difference is that the federal government negotiates with multiple insurers to offer a choice of plans to federal employees, while a corporation typically offers only one plan.
So what’s your point? Or do you even have one?
Doggone/GA
February 26th, 2010
10:49 am
“Congress also has used reconciliation in the past to establish entirely new health coverage programs or to substantially expand existing ones.
Children’s Health Insurance Program. Reconciliation legislation enacted in 1997 created the Children’s Health Insurance Program, which now provides subsidized coverage to 7 million children.
Medicare Advantage. The 1997 reconciliation law also established the Medicare+Choice program, now termed Medicare Advantage. The Medicare Advantage program currently serves 10.4 million Medicare beneficiaries.
Continuation of Employer-Sponsored Coverage. The Consolidated Omnibus Budget Reconciliation Act (COBRA) of 1985 established new rules under which workers leaving employment with a firm that offers health insurance can remain enrolled in the employer’s health plan for a specified period of time if the worker pays the premiums. COBRA also makes continuation of coverage available to spouses and children of workers upon the death of the worker, loss of dependent status, or other specified circumstances.”
http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3059
Whacks Eloquent
February 26th, 2010
10:49 am
Percy, thanks for the details!
Don’t y’all just love provision number 6? Not that I disagree, but so funny that SS gets its own special recognition.
M Percy
February 26th, 2010
10:50 am
Lord Help Us @10:32 am re: Bush tax cuts broke the bank.
The revenues after the Bush tax cuts increased sharply. Comparing year-over-year, we had revenue growth of 8.2% (’04), 14.6% (’05), 11.7% (’06), 6.7% (’07) before dipping by 1.7% in ‘08. Revenues exceeded $2T every year after the Bush tax cuts except for ‘04 ($1.88T) and in ‘06 & ‘07 exceeded $2.5T.
But it wasn’t enough, as Congress continued deficit spending. Year-over-year spending increases were 6.2%, 7.8%, 7.4% and 2.8% from ‘04-’07. Then the Democrats took over Congress and things really caught fire, as they spent 9.3% more in ‘08 and a whopping 34% more in ‘09.
With the increased revenue (even larger than increased spending over ‘03-’07), the amount added to the debt each year was steadily decreasing, especially when viewed as a percentage of GDP: 5.5% in ‘03, then 5.3%, 4.3%, 4.1%, and finally 3.4% in ‘07 (which is less than the 3.9% in ‘02). That’s over now, with more than $1T added by Democratic Congress ‘08 and ‘09 and more than $1.5T in the new budget.
Jay
February 26th, 2010
10:52 am
M Percy, reconciliation would not be used to pass the health reform bill. The House would pass the Senate’s version, and Obama would sign it. So the bill’s passage would not involve reconciliation.
However, reconciliation would then be used to alter some financial aspects of the bill.
Jimmy Carter
February 26th, 2010
10:52 am
“Ask Not What Your Country Can Do For You; Ask What You Can Do For Your Country.” JFK
I wonder if he would say this about govt healthcare as well?
SOUTHERN ATL
February 26th, 2010
10:53 am
Disgusted@10:40 a.m. What’s my point??? Have you ever been turned down for coverage or have you ever been told that you had a pre-existing condition and coverage will be denied?
ty webb
February 26th, 2010
10:54 am
UsinUK,
you’re right. let’s act like we got atleast a little hometraining.
Normal
February 26th, 2010
10:55 am
Jimmy Carter
February 26th, 2010
10:52 am
“Ask Not What Your Country Can Do For You; Ask What You Can Do For Your Country.” JFK
Pay more taxes!!!
M Percy
February 26th, 2010
10:55 am
Oh, I went over the “that’s too long for us to be bothered looking at” word-count limit again above in my 10:45. Sorry.
Dave R.
February 26th, 2010
10:56 am
Jay, I don’t think you’re going to get the Senate bill through the House. The numbers don’t add up.
Jimmy Carter
February 26th, 2010
10:57 am
Normal
February 26th, 2010
10:55 am
I’m all for modest tax increases if we also cut spending to balance the budget.
Just what percent increase in taxes do you suggest?
Jay
February 26th, 2010
10:58 am
That may be true, Dave. I have no idea what the count might be.
M Percy
February 26th, 2010
10:58 am
Jay, right now it seems that the House doesn’t have to votes to pass the Senate bill, and what I’m reading about elsewhere is that a reconciled bill (one that can pass the House) will be passed through the Senate with reconciliation.
Bill
February 26th, 2010
10:58 am
We don’t want government to have anything to do with healthcare. Why don’t you losers try and wise up and make more money to pay for it yourselves?
Eddie
February 26th, 2010
10:58 am
It ain’t over till it’s over.
House and senate still have to agree on the final bill. They are not there yet.
There’s a better way to handle health care reform.
USinUK
February 26th, 2010
11:00 am
not jimmeh –
1) with you on that one
2) with you on that one, too
3) I thought the passage of the senate version was uuuuuuuuuuu-GLEE. however, it’s not the first time that’s happened (for either party) and won’t be the last
4) I totally agree (not necessarily an equal cut across the board, but the garden definitely needs a good cull and burn!)
5) I agree with you, there, too – I think that passing tax cuts when you’re going into a war (and then hiding those expenses off the books) was an asinine decision.
Lord Help Us
February 26th, 2010
11:00 am
Have Mercy Miss Percy…
Do you attribute any of the transition from $250 Surplus to $1.4 Trillion deficit during the Bush Administration to Bush or to his tax cuts???
USinUK
February 26th, 2010
11:01 am
ty – “you’re right. let’s act like we got atleast a little hometraining”
Normal
February 26th, 2010
11:02 am
NIF, My first bike was a ‘69 Triumph Bonneville 650. Got her when I got got of the Navy the first time. Had her semi chopped (no hard tail) and painted a light lime over a gold metalflake. The guy who did the paint job put a perfect pot leaf on each side of the tank and covered them in a clear acrylic. It was a great bike. I went “Lookin’
for America” on it.
M Percy
February 26th, 2010
11:02 am
Plus, Jay, if the House passes the Senate bill, then the bill is passed, is it not? Then what point would there be for using reconciliation? To “fix” fiscal parts of it? That seems an odd position to be standing in, threatening to use reconciliation to tweak a bill that hasn’t, and may not, be passed? No, the threat we’re hearing is to use reconciliation to pass the combined H.C. bill.
Drain The Swamp (NIF)
February 26th, 2010
11:03 am
Mick
**America is still a great country, the germany comparision is a non starter. **
Yes it is, but when we stop learning from history we are in deep trouble. It isn’t just Germany that failed because of promises of robbing the rich to give the poor everything they ever wanted. Pol Pot, Stalin, Mao, some of the worst people that ever lived understood the power of those kinds of promises. And there are mass graves all over the world as a result.
It does concern me that so many are so adverse to looking at past mistakes made by other peoples. Why is that, Mick? Why is the media and the vast majority of progressives so adverse to comparing the acts of our government to past acts? If you would start to ask yourself why that honest and time tried technique is so abhorrent, I can’t see how you can get any sort of truthful and positive answer.
Obama did choose to tackle a tough issue, but every solution he has offered, just happen to parallel many gigantic mistakes that other countries have made. If you simply take a second and try to think of a single thing that this Congress has done that has not given incredible power to the government, that alone should tell you that they are not looking out for us, but instead looking out for them.
I think it is a travesty that the first “African American” president is a half white, grandson of millionaires, raised in Oahu and attended one of the most prestigious private schools in the world. Typical Democrat offering. He’s not too dark, you know. He’s almost white enough to be a democrat.
I heard his pastor, Rev. Wright speak at Morehouse the summer before anyone knew who he was. Black people were walking out of the speech because it was so racist. But Obama exposed his kids to that madman every Sunday, their entire life. And what he was spewing WAS the mantra of that church. But Obama lied and said that he didn’t know about this side if Wright, even though his first book was titled after a sermon from that bigot.
Taking on a big job offers him no awards unless he can solve the problem. Apparently, his ideas are so bad, that even his own party can’t swallow them.
We need solutions, but so far, we are seeing yet more government control. That offers no solutions, more bureaucracy and the dims prove every day that they cannot be trusted with even the power they have.
Normal
February 26th, 2010
11:03 am
Jimmy Carter
February 26th, 2010
10:57 am
Honestly, I don’t know other than each to his own ability. Bottom line is that we are all going to have to chip in or sink.
Jay
February 26th, 2010
11:04 am
The House may very well not be willing to pass the Senate bill. They’re counting votes like crazy right now, I’m sure.
But they can’t pass the entire bill through the Senate with reconciliation. Senate rules don’t allow it. They can only adjust its financial aspects.
M Percy
February 26th, 2010
11:04 am
“Have you ever been turned down for coverage or have you ever been told that you had a pre-existing condition and coverage will be denied?”
Have you ever tried to buy homeowners insurance after your house burned down or car insurance after you wrecked the car?
Lord Help Us
February 26th, 2010
11:05 am
Sorry Normal and Nuttin…the only good motorcycles have knobby tires.
Go to the GA Dome Saturday night and you will see!
I will be on the track with the TLD crew!!!
Normal
February 26th, 2010
11:05 am
Thanks Jay for putting my 1027 up. I take back what I was thinking…
SOUTHERN ATL
February 26th, 2010
11:06 am
….but of course a home as well as a car will eventually be replaced as long as there is cash on hand…what about a life??
Well
February 26th, 2010
11:06 am
AIG, which is nearly 80 percent-owned by the government, reported an adjusted loss of $7.2 billion, or $53.23 per share, compared with an adjusted loss of $38.5 billion, or $287.69 per share, a year earlier.
Analysts had been expecting a loss of $3.94 per share. It was not immediately clear whether the results were comparable with the estimates, according to Thomson Reuters I/B/E/S.
Well? I think not. More like a bottomless pit. And those analysts! Wow. I’d hate to take their recommendations for a good stock pick.
M Percy
February 26th, 2010
11:06 am
“But they can’t pass the entire bill through the Senate with reconciliation. Senate rules don’t allow it. They can only adjust its financial aspects.”
That’s kind of my point, but your picture doesn’t jibe with the notion of getting the bill passed somehow, and “if we have to use reconciliation to ram it through, so be it” [not a real quote, but the gist of what I'm reading and hearing].
Dave R.
February 26th, 2010
11:07 am
Realistically, you’ve already got four less votes than you had before with 3 Democrats no longer in the House and the GOP member from Louisiana already saying he won’t vote for it.
You have provisions in the Senate bill that just won’t fly like the Cornhusker Kickback, the Louisiana purchase and the tax on union “Cadillac” health plans. I don’t think any of those can be addressed in reconciliation, but maybe.
You also have Virginia, New Jersey and Massachusetts all staring them in the face.
I just don’t see the numbers game playing out on this route.
DAVID: AJC Truth Detector
February 26th, 2010
11:08 am
JAY……..SURE AS HELL CAN’t DEPEND ON THE Atlanta-Obama-Journal to clear things up….THERE IS No one at the AJC with the patience to read the 2,500 page monstrosity….
Normal
February 26th, 2010
11:08 am
Lord Help Us
February 26th, 2010
11:05 am
I tried knobbies out in the woods…those damn trees move too fast for me. I’ll take a highway bike anytime.
Well
February 26th, 2010
11:09 am
what about a life??
You just grow a whole new one or select pieceparts, as needed.
Drain The Swamp (NIF)
February 26th, 2010
11:09 am
Normal
Rode a Triumph one time. Probably about the same year. I loved that bike even though I believe just dragging your feet would be better brakes.
My first was a Zundapp KS 601. Sounded like a Harley, and was one of the worst designed bikes I ever rode. I paid $100 for it and I got ripped off, but I would love to have it now, just because it was so weird. My friend drove it through a basement wall at my parent’s house. So much for the Zoom Flop as we called it.
md
February 26th, 2010
11:10 am
“And what I worry about would be you essentially have still two chambers — the House and the Senate — but you have simply majoritarian absolute power on either side, and that’s just not what the founders intended,” Senator Barack Obama 2005
No More Progressives!
February 26th, 2010
11:10 am
Citizen of the World
February 26th, 2010
9:50 am
Won’t it be nice to know that even if you lose your job you can still get insurance despite a pre-existing condition?
All it would take (in Georgia) is for his Emminence Lord Oxendine to mandate insurance carriers cover pre-existing conditions in order to write policies in GA.
No Federal involvement AT ALL.
And it won’t cost a trillion dollars of other peoples money.
Lord Help Us
February 26th, 2010
11:10 am
Normal, cars with people on cell phones move faster and more erratically than trees…
M Percy
February 26th, 2010
11:13 am
“Do you attribute any of the transition from $250 Surplus to $1.4 Trillion deficit during the Bush Administration to Bush or to his tax cuts???”
Let me put it this way. The cuts, by themselves, would not have increased deficits. This is clear because revenues *increased* markedly after the cuts were passed. Had revenues decreased, that’d've been a different story.
The problem was simply that spending increased faster than the revenue growth. That does fall on the Congress and President. Spend less than before, or spend the same as before, or even if you spend more than before but less than the extra revenue being brought in and the “surplus” continues.
In other words, “It’s the spending, stupid.” Not that I’m calling you stupid, just paraphrasing that Clinton-era trope.
Jay
February 26th, 2010
11:14 am
My ride was a Kawasaki 750. The day I sold it, I walked away relieved I hadn’t killed myself on it.
But I miss it to this day.
Lord Help Us
February 26th, 2010
11:16 am
Have Mercy Miss Percy…
‘Let me put it this way. The cuts, by themselves, would not have increased deficits’
No REAL economist agrees with that statement. If you can point to an unbiased source, I will retract and apologize.
DAVID: AJC Truth Detector
February 26th, 2010
11:17 am
JAY…………READ…..MEDICARE & YOU———-Everyone in Georgia is covered for Health Care…..WE DO NOT NEED A NATIONAL HEALTH CARE overhaul…..CENTER FOR MEDICARE & MEDICAID SERVICES……Covers 100% of Georgia.
Drain The Swamp (NIF)
February 26th, 2010
11:20 am
Jay
Kaws are great bikes. I almost bought a 900 that had been turbo’d. The lag was so bad that once you hit the throttle, it was about 3 seconds before the turbo kicked in and at that point, just hang on. I always wanted a 500, but like you, just got tired of almost getting killed.
mm
February 26th, 2010
11:20 am
Pathetic how the wingnuts think they came out on top yesterday. Typical. They never can admit wen they get their @sses kicked.
Pass the current bill, add the House amendments, and use reconciliation to change it.
If the Dems pass this bill, you will see a total election disaster in November for the GOP. If they don’t pass it, the Dems will see an election disaster.
Jay
February 26th, 2010
11:21 am
“No More…”, it ain’t that easy.
If we did what you suggest, lots of people would cancel their insurance, then buy it only after they were diagnosed with something and needed somebody to pay their bills.
The cost of insurance would soar, because most of those buying it would be those with expensive pre-existing conditions. The system would collapse, which is why nobody has taken the seemingly simple solution you offer.
Mick
February 26th, 2010
11:22 am
NIF
**Why is the media and the vast majority of progressives so adverse to comparing the acts of our government to past acts?**
You raise some valid points. Obama is not rev. wright. I have friends that are on crack, bigots, you name it – thats not me and just because they are society’s losers don’t attach that to me. They are still my friends even though we live in different worlds. This country for better or for worse has a unique identity. Bush couldn’t take it, obama can’t take it – they are temporary custodians of what we are. We the people are measured by what type of leadership we elect. Congress has sold the people out but there are some good people there trying, unfortunately they are the minority. Repubs held the majority from 94 to 06, they blew it, so why should I trust them again? Dems have been in power three years. I want healthcare reform. I’m for single payer or medicare for all. Health care should not be for profit – period. Disagree with me? No problem, but if it turns out that is what the majority wants deal with it and leave the hitler, pol-pot, stalin and every dissenters favorite mao bs out because its not even remotely connected.
Whacks Eloquent
February 26th, 2010
11:23 am
Kawasaki?
http://www.hi-techredneck.com/cow-a-socky.html
Sorry, had to…
mm
February 26th, 2010
11:24 am
“This is clear because revenues *increased* markedly after the cuts were passed.”
Geez. Are there actually still morons out there believing this crap?
Jay
February 26th, 2010
11:24 am
I had mine when I lived in Vegas, Swamper. It was great going out on those straight desert highways in 110-degree heat and just opening that baby up….
Like I said, I walked away relieved I hadn’t died. But boy oh boy.
jefferson
February 26th, 2010
11:25 am
Let’s Vote — “NO”
Let’s Vote — “NO”
Let’s Vote — “NO”
Let’s Vote — “NO”
Let’s Vote — “NO”
Let’s Vote — “NO”
After a while, we begin to see a pattern.
Rightwing Troll
February 26th, 2010
11:25 am
“Whacks, where were you when the GOP used reconciliation to pass legislation 16 of the 22 times it has been used since 1980?”
The same place they were from 2000 to 2008, in LaLa land.
pat
February 26th, 2010
11:25 am
Here’s the facts. Obama put on a show for nothing yesterday whan he concluded that he is planning to ram this through no matter what and he could give a crap about actually being bipartisan. His view of bipartisan is you have to agree with him and then your being bipartisan. What a first class jerk.
What they should do is take a list of the things they all agree on and make it a bill and vote on it. Then hammer out the rest.
They want to vote on it via simple majority. Well the simple majority of the people do not want these bills, every poll shows this.
They may get this bill passed, but it will be the last thing they do before we the people over haul the congress.
mm
February 26th, 2010
11:25 am
It’s like your bank account. If you decrease the money you deposit in your bank account, it will not increase your balance.
Drain The Swamp (NIF)
February 26th, 2010
11:26 am
mm
**Pathetic how the wingnuts think they came out on top yesterday. Typical. They never can admit wen they get their @sses kicked.**
If arrogance wins, then the Republicans lost. if presenting good ideas and keeping their heads while Obozo gritted his teeth in anger wins, then the democrats lost
Big mistake by the dems doing that. And Obozo’s dig at McCain, pointing out that the election is over was about as classy as Jeremiah Wright.
A lot of Americans saw the side of Obama that Sean Hannity had warned us about two years ago.
Matilda
February 26th, 2010
11:26 am
“Won’t it be nice to know that even if you lose your job you can still get insurance despite a pre-existing condition?”
Also, wouldn’t it be nice if more people were able to quit corporate jobs they HATE (raise your hand!) to pursue their true passions and utilize their real skills in an entreprenureal way? I always hear that small businesses create jobs and need more consideration and lower taxes — from both sides. But the policies of protecing the status quo favor big businesses, not small, and not individuals who want to embrace the spirit of freedom and “making it on your own.”
Being beholden to a giant corporation because of a pre-existing condition (for you or a dependent) is NOT in keeping with the kind of REAL freedom we need to have thriving personal capitalism in this country again! If anyone in your family has ever been sick, you’d be risking not only your start-up capital, you could be risking their lives when they can’t get another policy. It’s our individuality and inventiveness that made this country great to begin with — things that are now repressed under modern corporate rule. HELP US GET FREE OF “THE MAN”!!!
Lord Help Us
February 26th, 2010
11:31 am
Normal, still can’t remember how to link, but cut and paste this in your browser and feel your testosterone level rise…
http://www.in.com/videos/watchvideo-james-bubba-stewart-motocross-supercross-video-3689852.html
Unfortunately, Bubba is hurt and won’t be in Atlanta Sat night, but Dungey, Villopoto, Hill and others look just as good…
Whacks Eloquent
February 26th, 2010
11:32 am
Troll, don’t speak for me!
Reconciliation in most of those 22 cases was used for budgetary issues, period. No problem with that by either party. I do not support either side attempting to use it for legislation. Byrd’s rules apply, unless they decide to try to revoke those.
getalife
February 26th, 2010
11:32 am
What is the “real accounting” report Cooper was talking about?
Drain The Swamp (NIF)
February 26th, 2010
11:32 am
JAy
Having all that open road and a Kaw, you are lucky to be alive. There is nothing like doing 120 and realizing that the throttle is barely open.
And now, with these crotch rockets, I wouldn’t last a week. My riding buddy still rides. he claims to have toped 200 on a bike. He was pretty crazy, so I don’t doubt it.
I came upon a really bad wreck where the cyclist was cut in half and the two women in the car were also killed. After that I started being careful and as you know, that almost got me killed so i sold my baby.
Whacks Eloquent
February 26th, 2010
11:35 am
Matilda @ 11:26
You bring up an EXCELLENT point…there should be a carryover from one provider to another on pre-existing conditions. I think some states mandate this, but I am not positive. So long as the insuree is not downgrading their plan and still assuming they will get the same coverage. This is one of the sensible ideas that needs to be part of a NEW plan!
Scooter
February 26th, 2010
11:37 am
Whacks Eloquent
February 26th, 2010
11:23 am
Too funny! lol
Drain The Swamp (NIF)
February 26th, 2010
11:37 am
Matilda
**wouldn’t it be nice if more people were able to quit corporate jobs they HATE (raise your hand!) to pursue their true passions and utilize their real skills in an entreprenureal way?**
There is no law to keep you from doing that Just figure it out. I have just started another business with a friend that was a corporate guy all his life.
Take the chance and dive in, but I have to tell you, it’s a Polar Bear Club right now. We probably won’t make a profit until summer.
The internet can be a huge help. Start a small internet business while you are still working. I make a few hundred a month off a couple of businesses that I haven’t touched in years. If I really worked them, they would probably support me.
jefferson
February 26th, 2010
11:38 am
If the debate is not in good faith, why debate? (Mr. NO)
Tank
February 26th, 2010
11:38 am
From CNN; “Student protest becomes riot.”
Student protests over budget cuts erupts into a riot. Is this the bastion of the 1960’s liberal movement? Job loss, disenfranchised citizens, cuts in goods and services. This is the tip of the iceberg. Just wait, it’s going to get nasty.
Forget health care. How about finding some way to stimulate real, sustained job growth in the commercial sector? Without growing the size of government (sorry if this offends teachers, infrastructure construction workers and emergency responders).
Paul
February 26th, 2010
11:38 am
Piggyback onto Jay’s 11:04
With all the talk about reconciliation, what it can and can’t accomplish, it would be useful to consider the opinion of one who is recognized by many as one of the Senate’s constitutional scholars:
”
Sen. Byrd calls proposed Democratic changes to filibuster rules ‘misguided’
By Michael O’Brien – 02/24/10 01:34 PM ET
Sen. Robert Byrd warned Democratic colleagues against changing filibuster rules in order to advance their legislative priorities.
Sen. Robert Byrd (D-W.Va.) warned Democratic colleagues Wednesday against changing filibuster rules in order to advance their legislative priorities.
In a “Dear Colleague” letter dated Tuesday, Byrd, the longest-serving member of the Senate, said that the Senate’s rules on ending debate shouldn’t be changed, but he encouraged forcing senators to actually sustain debate in a real, live filibuster.
“I am sympathetic to frustrations about the Senate’s rules, but those frustrations are nothing new,” Byrd wrote. “However, I believe that efforts to change or reinterpret the rules in order to facilitate expeditious action by a simple majority, while popular, are grossly misguided.”
http://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/83437-byrd-calls-changes-to-filibuster-rules-misguided
The letter Sen Byrd sent to his colleagues is here:
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/documents/2009/04/byrd-i-support-the-byrd-rule.php?page=1
Lord Help Us
February 26th, 2010
11:39 am
Normal, sorry, I am pumped for Sat night! Here is another:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yV6n4qdS_2g
Now, put the street bike away and go have some REAL fun!
Paul
February 26th, 2010
11:40 am
BTW – the justifications of “Pres Bush did it with his tax cuts…”
[[The Congressional Research Service (CRS) published “The Budget Reconciliation Process: The Senate’s ‘Byrd Rule’” in March 2008; the CRS paper makes clear that the 2001 & 2003 Bush tax bills were exempt from the Byrd Rule because they included sunset provisions that kept the bills within budgetary bounds–they expired within the budget reconciliation time window. ]]
md
February 26th, 2010
11:40 am
Speaking of motorcycles reminds me of how absurd gov’t can be – some states do not require helemts to ride motorcycles yet have laws for helemts to ride bicycles.
Go figure.
M Percy
February 26th, 2010
11:42 am
“No REAL economist agrees with that statement. If you can point to an unbiased source, I will retract and apologize.”
I don’t need to be an economist to lookup the Federal revenues, and compute year-over-year revenue growth. It is a fact that the revenue grew year-over-year. Look up the numbers and do the math yourself, like I did.
Since more money was coming in than ever before, if spending had not increased *even faster* then the cuts would have had no effect–because the revenues would have been sufficient.
Now, I might need to be an economist to calculate whether the revenues would have been even greater had the cuts not been enacted, and then demonstrate that had the hypothetical revenues been larger that the ever increasing spending would not have resulted in deficits. And if that’s the game you want to play, fine, but I’ll stick with the common-sense notion that we don’t have a revenue problem, we have a spending problem.
Drain The Swamp (NIF)
February 26th, 2010
11:43 am
Lord Help US
That is nuts.
Lord Help Us
February 26th, 2010
11:45 am
Have Mercy Miss Percy…
But to quote the great Ricky Bobby, ‘that idea ain’t worth a velvet paintin of a whale and a dolphin gettin it on…’
If it’s that cut and dry, why can’t you find ONE unbiased economist that agrees with you?
No More Progressives!
February 26th, 2010
11:45 am
Jay
February 26th, 2010
11:21 am
“No More…”, it ain’t that easy.
If we did what you suggest, lots of people would cancel their insurance, then buy it only after they were diagnosed with something and needed somebody to pay their bills.
That’s pretzel logic, Jay. What woulod prevent the same people from doing the same thing under Federal control?
People aren’t goint to cancel quality coverage at a good price; we, as Ameicans, have been conditioned to think that someone else should pay for our hospital and Dr. bills. This is one reason why premiums are so high now. Jane Doe goes to the emergency room to have a splinter removed.
The point is that if the President really wanted to use his bully-pulpit power, he could just direct all 50 insurance commissioners to do the same, and Voila! pre-existings are covered.
And it won’t cost a trillion dollars.
Lord Help Us
February 26th, 2010
11:46 am
Nuttin’, No it is wicked FUN!!!!!!! Been doin it all my life and I’m still walkin’.
RW-(the original)
February 26th, 2010
11:46 am
This might be a first, but I agree with LHU on this one. I used to ride a Suzuki 250 motocross bike and you just don’t get that kind of thrill from a street bike.
Lord Help Us
February 26th, 2010
11:48 am
Sorry RW, I was so taken about by you agreeing with me that I fainted and hit the button…
Scooter
February 26th, 2010
11:49 am
md
February 26th, 2010
11:40 am
The cyclists should have made a contribution to thier lawmakers like the motorbike riders did.
Jimmy Carter
February 26th, 2010
11:51 am
Matilda
February 26th, 2010
11:26 am
HELP US GET FREE OF “THE MAN”!!!
We’ll try to accomplish with the 2012 presidential election.
JackLeg
February 26th, 2010
11:51 am
Jenifer, According to you liberals Cuba has great healthcare, we are a free nation so feel free to move.
jefferson
February 26th, 2010
11:52 am
Paul, old Byrd should have been retired long ago, in this new age of no compromise, hard liner majority rule will be the new way to “stick it to the other side”. This is what it has come to. The Senate is no longer above “petty” politics. If they get voted out, that’s the way of the fickle public.
ken R
February 26th, 2010
11:53 am
Jay, why can’t Obama attack the waste right now? why wait until his bill gets passed?
60 minutes ( Steve Croft ) done an excellent piece on Medicare fraud, why won’t Obama show us that he can eliminate the fraud and show us some results? I just don’t get it, then again maybe I do.
Whacks Eloquent
February 26th, 2010
11:55 am
Gotta love Charlie Rangel getting the smackdown, but ironically not for tax evasion just improper sponsoring of a Caribbean trip!
D’oh!
Will Pelosi ask him to step down, like the GOP did with Tom DeLay? Don’t count on it…
RW-(the original)
February 26th, 2010
12:00 pm
Did anybody know the renewal of the Patriot Act passed the House 315-97 last night? I guess all that bellyaching whenever it came up for renewal while Bush was President was just some of that political theater we were talking about yesterday.
Paul
February 26th, 2010
12:01 pm
Whacks
Wasn’t his fault. He’s not responsible for knowing what his staff does… let alone having the moral understanding to know if something’s wrong or not.
//sarc//
I find it neat, though, the way a gov’t employee making a hundred seventy grand a year (lower middle class, according to Democrats?) owns vacation homes and has four apartments in NYC and…
RW-(the original)
February 26th, 2010
12:03 pm
Now, now Paul, those were rent controlled apartments.
Oh wait, isn’t have more than one of those a violation too?
Paul
February 26th, 2010
12:03 pm
RW-(the original)
That vote’s gotta be wrong. That many Democrats passed a bill extending warrantless wiretaps and targeting people thought to be part of a terror group but acting as a ‘lone wolf’ and all that other stuff?
But… but…. that stuff is wrong! It’s a grab for fascist totalitarianism! It’s unconstitutional!!! Just having a Democratic president and Democratic Congressional majority doesn’t change anything!!!!!!!
Jay
February 26th, 2010
12:04 pm
Actually, MPercy, the data show something quite different than what you claim. In fact, they contradict your claim directly. (See http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/historicals/, Table 1.3)
In 2000, the year Bush was elected, federal revenue hit $2.31 trillion. In inflation-adjusted dollars, federal revenue didn’t reach that peak again until 2006, and even then it was barely ($2.32 trillion). In 2007, revenue again exceeded 2000 levels, but again only barely ($2.41 trillion). Those are the only two years since the Bush tax cuts that revenue exceeded 2000 revenue, and it took six years to do it.
A comparison with the Clinton years is instructive. In 1993, federal revenues were $1.51 trillion. The controversial Clinton tax increase that year produced steadily rising revenue every year thereafter, and contributed greatly to the four balanced budgets (1998, 1999, 2000, 2001) at the end of his presidency.
That’s what the numbers say.
Paul
February 26th, 2010
12:05 pm
RW-(the original)
Naw…. it’s FOUR violations. For starters.
Don’t know why the ethics panel has such a tough time with it.
RW-(the original)
February 26th, 2010
12:05 pm
I think the Bolgod is watching as I type and changing my words. I know I typed having, I just know it!!!
(IHB)
Whacks Eloquent
February 26th, 2010
12:06 pm
“Did anybody know the renewal of the Patriot Act passed the House 315-97 last night? I guess all that bellyaching whenever it came up for renewal while Bush was President was just some of that political theater we were talking about yesterday.”
Oh well, we all know it’s still Bush’s fault…
Doggone/GA
February 26th, 2010
12:10 pm
“Oh well, we all know it’s still Bush’s fault…”
Not anymore
Jay
February 26th, 2010
12:11 pm
As to Rangel, I do not defend him and have written that he ought to step down as chairman. But on this particular count, I think justice is being served. They can’t prove he knew about the illegal sponsorship, but they did admonish him anyway, which within the range of congressional discipline is pretty serious.
The big violations have yet to be decided — I think we’ll see him going down, and deservedly so, on those counts.
Paul
February 26th, 2010
12:12 pm
Seriously, I think the Patriot Act extension (as well as those other national security actions) demonstrates the reality of having your hands on the controls, as opposed to sitting in the back seat giving advice.
Never get’em to admit it, which is why it’s fun to ping ‘em.
Jack
February 26th, 2010
12:14 pm
Nothing new here at the “summit”. The usual liberal dog & pony act.
RW-(the original)
February 26th, 2010
12:14 pm
An admonishment with no penalty. Now that’s some serious discipline there I tell ya. Those “big violations” may just earn him a strongly worded letter.
Paul
February 26th, 2010
12:15 pm
Jay
You’ve been consistent regarding Rep Rangel. His defense (my staff did it) struck me as a too-convenient shirking of responsibility. After 40 years’ service, witnessing all the changes and being involved in the legislation, to not even ask ‘who’s paying for this trip? What are the parameters?” strikes me as a conscious effort at plausible deniability.
Spkr Pelosi doesn’t strike me as all that different from Pres Bush in this regard – loyalty to friends above responsibility to citizens, loathe to release one of the team -
RW-(the original)
February 26th, 2010
12:16 pm
Paul,
Actually the Senate did want to weaken the Patriot Act somewhat, but when they couldn’t they just passed an extension on a voice vote Wednesday. Maybe they should start working on these things before a deadline is staring them in the face.
Jay
February 26th, 2010
12:17 pm
But RW, an admonishment goes on his permanent record!
And we all know how serious THAT is.
:>)
Whacks Eloquent
February 26th, 2010
12:17 pm
Paul,
“Spkr Pelosi doesn’t strike me as all that different from Pres Bush in this regard – loyalty to friends above responsibility to citizens, loathe to release one of the team -”
If only politicians would feel this kind of loyalty to the American people…
Jay
February 26th, 2010
12:20 pm
More seriously, that record may actually have an impact. As they decide the other, more serious cases, they can use this admonishment to document that he’s a repeat offender on ethics. So stay tuned.
RW-(the original)
February 26th, 2010
12:20 pm
I wish I could find my permanent record. I think it’s issued in volumes.
Matilda
February 26th, 2010
12:24 pm
Drain the Swamp (NIF) at 11:37,
Congratulations and good luck in your new endeavor! I hear you, but it’s not that simple. First, most cannot afford COBRA payments, and that expires anyway. Cost is prohibitive for many, and rates continue to rise here in Georgia, despite tort reform in 2005, and despite Oxendine’s claims of being on our side. (As IF!)
Second, many (including me) have been DENIED the sale of a policy, even a bare-bones, major medical — at any price, due to a “pre-existing condition.” So while I appreciate your “GO GIT ‘EM” fearlessness, your “JUST DO IT” response is overly simplistic, and fails to address the REAL reasons more people don’t.
Just because YOU don’t have a particular problem doesn’t mean it isn’t a real problem. I don’t have cancer, AIDS, or diabetes — that doesn’t mean it couldn’t happen to any of us. Get real.
Jay
February 26th, 2010
12:27 pm
Wasn’t that your permanent record piled up on Eric Cantor’s desk yesterday, RW?
RW-(the original)
February 26th, 2010
12:30 pm
Jay B,
It may well have been and if they would just slap a cover sheet on it saying Health Care Reform Act of 2010 I bet Obama would sign it.
Paul
February 26th, 2010
12:31 pm
RW-(the original) you too, Jay
For the lunch hour – about 3 minutes, advance to 3:45, the exchange is timely, the 6:30 about making inquiries especially so –
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLWVcEyfVyY&feature=related
Jay
February 26th, 2010
12:31 pm
It would still have to go through reconciliation….
No More Progressives!
February 26th, 2010
12:31 pm
Jay
February 26th, 2010
12:04 pm
Actually, MPercy, the data show something quite different than what you claim. In fact, they contradict your claim directly.
“White House Data” is an oxymoron, Jay.
Lies, damn lies & statistics.
Jay
February 26th, 2010
12:34 pm
Those are standard OMB statistics, No More. Not even the most rabid partisans in Washington question their honesty.
Jay
February 26th, 2010
12:36 pm
And Paul, that’s a hilarious riff on the various newspaper audiences.
Paul
February 26th, 2010
12:37 pm
Make that 6:15, not 6:30
Drain The Swamp (NIF)
February 26th, 2010
12:37 pm
Matilda
We are having a bad time with insurance also. I am ten years older than my partner and our only worker is 23 and I am the only one that has been approved for Health Care from Humana. They have both ben denied because of pre-existtings. it’s a mess and needs to be fixed, but not like the congress is trying to do.
**Just because YOU don’t have a particular problem doesn’t mean it isn’t a real problem.**
We are having huge problems and I am watching my savings going away, but it’s just what it takes. This is a great idea and I’m sure it will work, but it just takes time and money.
The advantage of an internet business is that you don’t have to quit work until the business is making real money. I have a friend that sells Cocoa Mix over the internet. She bought a packaging machine and mixes up her cocoa in her second bedroom. She quit her job two years ago and works a few months a year mixing the stuff up and then just fills orders.
I’m not telling you that it is easy. It isn’t. But doing something hard that you love is a lot easier than doing something you hate every day. I hate that you hate your job. I hated mine many years ago when I finally quit and started the business that I just sold. I should have sold it three years ago, so I lost a lot of money, but that’s the way it works. Win a few, lose a few.
But be very careful looking for a business. Most are rip offs and if any want you to pay them money, move on. I would advise getting a good book on starting internet businesses but make sure they are current. I bought one years ago that was outdated and everything I tried had already been outlawed or policies of search engines had changed. I wasted about a year on that one.
Paul
February 26th, 2010
12:39 pm
Jay
One of my favorites – (for the rest of you who may catch it, it’s just before the 3:45 mark and the Sun is a British tabloid known for a Page 3 model (topless) in every issue -
Johnny
February 26th, 2010
12:39 pm
At the end of the day, if most of the country is unemployed, and it looks to be heading that way, those in power will have to provide some sort of healthcare and services. If they don’t, and the masses get hungry & angry enough, those with the wealth and power won’t have that wealth and power very long and they and their families will be deceased. It has happened before, albeit under different circumstances, but not out of the realm of possibility. Just look at Cuba or Czar Nicholas of Russia.
kjdfg
February 26th, 2010
12:40 pm
jay – the obama plan uses repub ideas, not the house or senate plan
Dusty
February 26th, 2010
12:40 pm
Admonish, astonish and other robbish! I only have a few minutes here so I had to skip most of this lovely discussion. Nevertheless, I couldn’t miss Jay’s frequent commments in gray. He posts almost as many comments as Jenifer with some similarity.
. Anyway: NO TOTAL GOVERNMENT HEALTH POLICY. I like my doctor just like he is now, a wise man who needs no instruction from politicians.
And..let me add this note to RedNeck. He is pleased he isn’t married to “Sister Dusty”. Well, that makes two of us. Alleluia!
Paul
February 26th, 2010
12:47 pm
Dusty
For another time, perhaps, but I don’t see how the Democratic plan would in any way impact my relationship with my doctor, whom I’ve gone to for years.
In fact, I don’t see how it’d affect me much at all. But it may do much for people who may find out they have cancer and their insurance company wants to drop them because they didn’t disclose they had ‘high’ blood pressure… or the guy who got married and two years later his wife’s exhusband called and said “just thought you’d like to know, I’ve developed AIDs, sorry ’bout that” (happened to a guy I worked with) so he couldn’t get health insurance, or all those other problems we’ve discussed.
Yeah, wouldn’t affect me much. But it might to a lot of good for others less fortunate than I am.
SwedeAtlanta
February 26th, 2010
1:00 pm
I am disappointed this “summit” didn’t happen last Spring about the same time there were discussions with other industry players such as the pharmaceutical companies. I’m not sure the outcome would have been much different in terms of substance as it was clear from yesterday’s meeting that while there is general agreement on objectives there are clear differences in solutions.
If these were “normal” times when we weren’t facing unprecedented challenges in the economy, infrastructure, etc. I would be more patient in giving Congress a little more time to work on HCR. But I don’t think further discussion across the aisle is going to bring any change to well-entrenched positions. If the Democrats believe, as I do, that we need to address this issue this year, and they know they face certain filibuster in the Senate from Republicans, then drive this through in Reconciliation. Then move on to the other issues facing us.
The 2010 elections will certainly bring some changes in terms of Congress. The Republicans could take back control of the House and will narrow the margin in the Senate. If the new Congress isn’t happy with what was passed in 2010 through Reconciliation they can attempt legislative modification or repeal subject to a presidential veto and Congressional overrride.
We have spent enough time debating this issue and have many more pressing problems to address.
Dusty
February 26th, 2010
1:02 pm
Paul,
I’m just closing out as time is about gone. Sorry, but I don’t believe there are a large number of people who have been refused health insurance or have no access to health care. Maybe you know better. There are valid reasons for refusing insurance of any kind and usually other resources to be tried. It is hard for me to believe some hardtime health stories when the biggest and often best hospital in Atlanta is there for those who have the least. I think there are many such places.
If you don’t disclose facts on your application, you might not be considered a safe customer. (the BP incident).
Are you telling me people with AIDS cannot get health insurance? I wonder about that one as the USA is spending money all over the world to treat AIDS.
Anyway, I will check later as I value your opinion.
MLeake
February 26th, 2010
1:32 pm
Some of the pro-reconciliation arguments and thoughts put forward in this forum are so outrageous that I have to wonder if their posters are really in favor of the health care bill, or are actually against it and are sneakily providing ammo for those of us who are openly against it.
MLeake
February 26th, 2010
1:35 pm
This is not to say I’m opposed to the concept of health care reform, just that I’m opposed to a lot of what the administration is trying to do with it.
I tend to agree with Bill Frist: Before we can have meaningful health care reform, we need to have a more health-conscious public. Americans could do a lot to help themselves, by cutting back on the processed foods and increasing levels of exercise. Obesity and diabetes are major factors in rising health care costs in the US.
I’d like to see the government allow us to purchase insurance across state lines.
I’d like to see tort reform pass.
Unfortunately, it’s very unlikely the Democrats will allow any of those things to happen, as they involve individual responsibility, as well as the normal functions of a free market.
Then again, the Republicans haven’t been too effective in pursuing real change on those counts, either; they mostly just seem to offer lip service.
Think I may have to go Libertarian…
M Percy
February 26th, 2010
1:54 pm
Jay, I went to Table 1.3 there and found the following numbers for receipts:
2003 1,782.3
2004 1,880.1
2005 2,153.6
2006 2,406.9
2007 2,568.0
2008 2,524.0
2009 2,105.0
Doing the year-over-year numbers, I find
2004 5.5%
2005 14.5%
2006 11.8%
2007 6.7%
2008 -1.7%
That’s pretty much right on with the numbers I provided: Comparing year-over-year, we had revenue growth of 8.2% (’04), 14.6% (’05), 11.7% (’06), 6.7% (’07) before dipping by 1.7% in ‘08. Revenues exceeded $2T every year after the Bush tax cuts except for ‘04 ($1.88T) and in ‘06 & ‘07 exceeded $2.5T.
I will admit there is a small discrepancy in 2004 (8.2% vs 5.5%). I will have to reexamine my original source. I also had a typo, I should have said exceeded $2.5T in ‘07 and ‘08, not ‘06 and ‘07. Bu ti si true that in the years following the tax cuts (which is to say 2004 forward), revenues exceeded $2T every year but ‘04, which had exactly what I said ($1.88T).
On the spending side, your Table 1.3 provides those numbers too:
2003 2,159.9
2004 2,292.9
2005 2,472.0
2006 2,655.1
2007 2,728.7
2008 2,982.6
2009 3,517.7
The year-over-year calculations:
2004 6.2%
2005 7.8%
2006 7.4%
2007 2.8%
2008 9.3%
2009 17.9%
Also, pretty much in line with what I said: But it wasn’t enough, as Congress continued deficit spending. Year-over-year spending increases were 6.2%, 7.8%, 7.4% and 2.8% from ‘04-’07. Then the Democrats took over Congress and things really caught fire, as they spent 9.3% more in ‘08 and a whopping 34% more in ‘09.
Some discrepancy in ‘09 spending (17.9% vs 34%). Again, I will check my original sources for the one discrepancy. My other number there may have been an estimate.
But to say my numbers are wrong, then point to a table of numbers that produce (with some exceptions) identical results hardly supports your statement.
I never said anything about 2000 levels (which was pre dot-com bubble recession). Nor anything about Clinton-era receipts or spending. I only pointed out that year-over-year increases in spending exceeded year-over-year increases in revenue, and that the year-over-year revenue growth was pretty strong after the 2003 tax cuts. Which your own source reiterates.
The Nerve
February 26th, 2010
1:57 pm
Wow USinUK and Kamchak….thanks for the witty and thoughtful replies. I certainly apologize that I do not consider the current bill proposed by the party that represents the 51% majority of this country is a good and proper way for us to solve healthcare. I was simply using the same language your blog leader Jenifer likes to use. I also certainly apologize for sounding anything like Rush Limbaugh. And you are right. I concede all to the Democrat Party. Where and/or how do I begin to become as thoughtful, insightful and knowledgeable as you?
Oh and USinUK…Top Gear is one of the best shows on television. Saw that you mentioned that the other day. I like more of the episodes from the first couple of years better, but all of them are very entertaining.
TnGelding
February 26th, 2010
1:57 pm
Republicans don’t want reforms and don’t care how many of us are maimed or killed by incompetent practitioners. Democrats don’t have a clue as to the problems. I was disappointed Obama shrugged off the effects of lifestyle choices on our health. And nobody offered any solutions to stop the waste, fraud and abuse that was stated as 30%. If 5% of the beneficiaries are using 50% of the health care dollars in Medicare, then there is an easy solution to that: death with diignity. How many are there out there like Keith Olbermann’s father?
Williebkind
February 26th, 2010
2:02 pm
M Percy
February 26th, 2010
1:54 pm
Daggum Percy, you make my head hur!! Now you got Jay all tongue tied.
M Percy
February 26th, 2010
2:05 pm
Also Jay, your Table 1.3 actually helps confirm what I’m trying to say. Looking at the post-1993 Clinton tax increases:
Yr Rev. Spend.
1994 9.0% 3.7%
1995 7.4% 3.7%
1996 7.5% 2.9%
1997 8.7% 2.6%
1998 9.0% 3.2%
1999 6.1% 3.0%
2000 10.8% 5.1%
The reason Clinton and the Republican Congress reached surplus was because the spending growth was held below the revenue growth.
This was broken when Bush and the Republican Congress decided to spend like madmen, with spending growth outstripping the revenue growth, but even worse when Congress changed to Democrats.
Photty
February 26th, 2010
3:49 pm
Why is Tort reform out of bounds…McCain had some good comments. Throw out the special deals, and add in a simple tort-reform limitation on liability like in Texas, and we could have gotten a deal.
Opportunity lost.