A conscious effort to deceive is unacceptable

But…but…but Breitbart is like the Bible!

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Willful, gross deception – sounds like a lot of republicants I’ve come in contact with.

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I heard today that Congress’ approval ratings have sunk to a shocking 10%.

Obowo will have no conscious whatsoever about feeding that kind of garbage to the wolves; problem is getting the wolves to bite.

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And I thought the rabid comments by our conservative friends on this site were HARSH. The people who commented on that site are down right mean spirited and ugly. They make the regulars on this blog look like Sunday School teachers.

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So how is it that Senate Republicans could use reconciliation to pass the Bush tax cuts, with only 50 votes in favor and Dick Cheney breaking the tie, but now it’s an abuse if the Democrats use it to pass a health care bill? Is reconciliation acceptable only if it’s initiated by Republicans?

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These are the 2005 quotes about using a 51 person Senate majority. There is no distinction about what is being proposed, it’s merely statements against the use of the “nuclear option”. Hilarious

“…will change the character of the Senate forever”….Barack Obama

“…that’s just not what the founders intended”….Barack Obama

W said “change the rules, do it the way I want it done”……Hilary Clinton

“…you have to restrain yourself Mr. President.”……Hilary Clinton

“We are on the precipice of a crisis, a Constitutional crisis”……Chuck Shumer

“the checks and balances which have been at the core of this Republic are about to be evaporated by the nuclear option”…….Chuck Shumer

“the nuclear option, if successful, will turn the Senate into a body that could have its rules broken at any time by a majority of Senators…”….Diane Feinstein

“This nuclear option is an ultimate example of the arrogance of power. It is a fundamental power grab…”….Joe Biden

“..arrogance of power of this republican administration…”….Harry Reid

“I pray God when the Democrats take back control we don’t make the kind of naked power grab you are doing.”….Joe Biden

“…what were the framers thinking about 218 years ago. They understood. Mr. President, there is a tyranny of the majority”….Chris Dodd

Go ahead, libs, deny, spin, twist, warp, etc.

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Jenifer

February 24th, 2010
3:22 pm

Strong words from someone who regularly cuts and pasted the Huffington Post, NY Times, Daily Kos, etc.

So Breitbart has doctored this video? Perhaps they did voice overs. Yeah, that’s it. Dick Cheney got some sound alikes and had Breitbart do voice overs. Yeah!!

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Not-fit-to-carry-Jimmy-Carter’s jockstrap @ 3.22, those guys weren’t talking about the use of reconciliation to pass a bill.

But, nice try.

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It’s all a matter of whose ox is getting gored. They’re all politicians and in many cases, hypocrisy comes with the territory. The in crowd will always try to walk all over the out crowd and the out crowd will always holler like a stuck hog.

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Oh heavens, not slanted news from a media source. Tell me its not so.

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jay, save you’re breath. they like being lied to, as long as it fits into their narrow world view its cool….

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Hammers, Oranges…we making orange juice here?

Regardless I say “Barry and Dems…GO FOR BROKE!!” and setup the next 12 years or Republican reign.

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Hillbilly Deluxe

February 24th, 2010
3:26 pm

Harumph, harumph!!

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“The effort to at least try to be honest in our discussion, even if our own bias means we come up short, ought to be the minimum required of responsible citizenship”

In my mind that applies those on here who use words such as dummycrats, and republicants, obozo etc…

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Jay

February 24th, 2010
3:24 pm

“Embrace deception”? I would have been doing so had I believed your previous article where you stated you did not blame W for the current economic mess we find ourselves in.

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That said, I think it is a bit sneaky that reconciliation is used by either side to do anything other than just get a budget through so that the government can keep functioning. I use that last word lightly…
Sneaky? What the heck am I thinking? We are talking about politicians…who have similar personality traits to serial killers! (from FBI BAU – yeah like the show Criminal Minds!) Awesome show BTW!

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Would liberals really say health care is that much more important that it is worth risking the elections on?

That question presupposes that there is no risk in allowing HCR to die on the vine.

Mid-terms are won by getting your base fired up. And there ain’t no base that’s gonna go the extra mile this November, to support weak-kneed Dems who couldn’t deliver on their single most significant 2008 domestic-policy pledge. Na gone duit.

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Jay

February 24th, 2010
3:40 pm

Gee, count me in with the majority of Americans who don’t believe the proposed healthcare plan will actually “help the country”.

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Max Blumenthal: Feeling The Hate At CPAC 2010 With Andrew Breitbart, Hannah Giles And The Crazy Mob

Thank you, Mr Blumenthal, for revealing the underlying bigotry of these hardcore conservatives masquerading as constitutional advocates who are continually quoting many of our misguided slave-holding founding fathers and their vision of how and what America should be.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/max-blumenthal/feeling-the-hate-at-cpac_b_474077.html

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“In my mind that applies those on here who use words such as dummycrats, and republicants, obozo etc…”

Hear, hear…….

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Jenifer

February 24th, 2010
3:46 pm

You see, I knew you’d link to a Huffington Post article.

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Jimmy Carter,

“That way you could be on the left and I could be on the right.”

Or maybe just switch seats to gain a new perspective?

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jewcowboy

February 24th, 2010
3:49 pm

Hear, hear!!

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Jay

February 24th, 2010
3:49 pm

Wow, no condescending “have you no shame” opener?

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Jay, you said: …”Well, no. We all have honest differences of opinion. We all bring our own perspectives to the debate….

We may debate here, but in Washington, since BO took hold, there has been no debate.

Virtually every single amendment (maybe a handful got through) proposed by Republicans never even made it out of committee, stored gored and ignored by the ranking Democrats. The Repugs became the “party of no” in the sense that the Dems said, “no, we’re not interested in what you have to say, you had your chance.”

Yet the dimwittocrats could not even pass 1 single piece of meaningful legislation with the supposed ’super majority’ because of their own infighting, that, plus Obowo’s psycho fixation on his version and his party’s version of health care reform that the majority of Americans does not even want. They want health care reform, but just not his or his party’s sole determination of what it should be.

Yet the Dems move on, trying yet again tomorrow.

Sad.

Sad and pathetic.

November shall not arrive here soon enough..

Till then we shall still be watching this pathetic group of losers trying to cram down America’s throat something they do not want.

I only have 4 more words to say:

Virginia

New Jersey

Massachusetts

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Hate to break it to you Jay, but there are mnay of us that no longer believe any news sources. Once the corporations and power brokers started buying them all up, its been all downhill.

Goes along with the mantra – believe none of what you hear and half of what you see………..

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md

February 24th, 2010
4:01 pm

Agreed. I always think of Walter Cronkite in times like these. A giant in the industry, yet I don’t recall hearing his political views injected in to his broadcast. It was after he retired that I read something along the lines that he was a Socialist or something like that. Don’t tear me up if I’m wrong, but I do remember many people being surprised about his political views because the didn’t play his cards for all to see when he was with CBS.

Goodnight Chet….Goodnight David….and goodnight for NBC News.

Huntley and Brinkley, Walter Cronkite, man, those were the days!

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Jimmy, what was wrong with Jay’s observation? seems right on from here…

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Bud, they passed to TARP and ARRA. those were meaningful pieces of legislation…they just passed a job bill…

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Same difference Jay – The dems are attaching this “health care” monstrosity that will eventually take over 17% of our economy onto a “spending bill” so that they can use reconcilliation.

They know that the bill is a piece of crap and it won’t pass on it’s own, so they are using their own version of the “nuclear option”.

Nice try though.

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Question for you Sam – how many times do the taxpayers get to bail out Chrysler?

How many corporations in this country have not been bailed out? Why the difference?

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Breitbart needs to invest in a capable web page designer.

Yeech!!

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“They know that the bill is a piece of crap and it won’t pass on it’s own, so they are using their own version of the “nuclear option”.

Vinny–Far and away, the biggest problem in our health care system is cost. Not quality, not accessibility, but cost. Somehow, the Democrats believe that forcing everyone to purchase health care insurance is going to lower the overall costs. Never mind the fact that it is the third-party payment system itself which has led to the high costs in the first place due to unnecessary administrative costs along with waste and fraud that consumers now turn a blind eye toward simply because they aren’t pulling any money out of their own pockets.

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Midori,

” the ones that did absolutely nothing for the middle class and poor?”

That is not true…they ensured greater income disparity for the middle class/poor and the wealthy. That’s something. Not something good, but something.

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not sure MD…how many?

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better watch out, JCB.

Next some will be calling you a misinformed, lying liberal!!!!

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“A conscious effort to deceive is unacceptable.”

“Unacceptable.” What an old fashioned word. To even use the word implies that there is some definition of what is and is not acceptable. It implies there is a right and a wrong, a truth and a lie, good and bad behavior. (I am remembering how often I used that word with my child. At about 10 she tried that stunt of rolling her eyes and saying “whatever” until I grounded her about ten times for doing that.)

Amongadults, in order for there to be acceptable behavior there has to be some agreement on right, wrong, truth, lie, good, bad. We don’t seem to have such an ethos.

What Beatlebug did was acceptable to those who support stopping the Dems. Acceptable means that it accomplishes the purpose.

I know what you mean, Jay. And I am sickened by there being no boundries anymore. Ethics doesn’t matter as long as it works. As in your last subject here, it isn’t just Pus who do it, although they are masterful at it.

Oh, well. Another letter to my Senators and representative.

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“I have no problem with honest disagreement and honest discussion, Jimmy. It’s the other kind that bothers me, because it makes debate impossible.”

“Do you really want your sincerity, judgment and honesty to be gauged by that claim? Come on. You know better.”

So, I guess questioning someone’s sincerity, judgment and honesty qualifies as “healthy debate”? Just curious…….

(We’re all human)

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Midori,

“Next some will be calling you a misinformed, lying liberal!!!!”

Too late. Did you not see NIF’s rant last night against me?

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“We” don’t have a song, dude. I have a song. It’s called, “My big jealous boyfriend doesn’t think you’re funny.” Do you know it?

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The very definition of the word “politician” to me means “distrust”.

The very definition of the word “journalist” to means “verify”.

Bottom line?

Each have become two of the least respected occupations one can have but somehow we still find the type of people willing to maintain the traditions of both.

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“Somehow, the Democrats believe that forcing everyone to purchase health care insurance is going to lower the overall costs. ”

Actually, no “we” don’t. We think it will help lower the cost to the PATIENT. The overall cost of healthcare is a different issue, and it too needs to be addressed. But no matter which system you prefer: mandated insurance, single-payer, government run…the “company” with the most paying “customer” had the greatest bargaining strength. Which is why group plans can negotiate better healthcare costs than a single person with an individual plan can possibly negotiate.

Which brings me to a perpetual lament of mine: WHY can’t these insurance companies create “group” plans for their current individual buyers, as well as those currently uninsured? Why not? I have yet to see this even brought up in the dicsussions, let alone seen anyone try to answer it. If they would do that, they could probably kill “reform” dead.

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Pat

February 24th, 2010
4:30 pm

Spoken like a charter member of MSNBC.

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““My big jealous boyfriend doesn’t think you’re funny.” Do you know it?”

Out of curiosity, why do you feel the need to threaten people because you don’t like what they said about you on a blog?

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Local Headline: “Is Freaknik returning? A Web site says the event will come back in April, but Atlanta’s mayor doesn’t think it will happen.”

Oh good! Live sex acts on the hoods of cars on Peachtree Street again. Just some kids having fun. Nothing you wouldn’t have seen on Peachtree in the 40’s and 50’s right ?

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I love reconciliation. How do you think Bush got all those tax cuts passed. All he had to do was conveniently leave off the cost of the wars from the budget and then promise to raise the taxes ten years down the road after he was out of office in order to pay for it. Of course, then the great recession hit and all those unregulated credit default swaps that I was told to take credit for thinking up way back then… anyway, the rest is history in the making and that’s why I like it in Switzerland.

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“We think it will help lower the cost to the PATIENT.”

And how is that? By perpetuating an inefficient system which breeds dishonesty?

Either full-blown socialistic health care or a truly capitalistic system in which insurance is returned to its rightful place as a hedge against catastrophic loss will lower both the overall costs AND the cost per patient. The current health care bill is neither.

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“Stupak: 15-20 Dems Withholding Support For White House Health Plan… ”

Hmm, I guess these people just refuse to engage in “honest disagreement and honest discussion”. I guess they are just “willing to ignore reality and embrace deception.”

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Bruno,

“Since the “poor” are already paying little or no taxes, jewcowboy, what specific change in the tax code would make things more “fair”?”

My response was in response to this post:

“I’m middle class and received a tax cut” ~ Vinny

It shows that, indeed, the middle class may have received a tax break, the greater percentage of the tax breaks went to the wealthy.

Here is the report…

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=1811

Table 3 shows this more clearly.

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“And how is that?”

By bringing insurance premiums into a range that are affordable for most people. It’s easier to pay $100 a month than $3000 a month, and it’s easier to pay $200 a month than it is to pay $40,000 that you might owe if you get sick and don’t have insurance to help pay for that cost.

“By perpetuating an inefficient system which breeds dishonesty?”

I already said that overall costs are something that ALSO needs to be addressed, but yes, if it means – in the short run – perpetuating an inefficient system in order to get universal coverage, then that is what it takes. It doesn’t mean we can NEVER address the other issues, but they will have to be addressed separately.

Personally, I would prefer a single-payer system.

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Midori,

“I tend to scroll past idiotic nonsense such as that.”

Sometimes it’s amusing to just stir the pot when you see absurd gibbering.

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Jay

February 24th, 2010
4:48 pm

Perhaps it would be easier if you would please let us “uninformed” know what the cost of Obama’s plan truly is. Also, just how will he, or China, pay for it while simultaneously reducing the deficit? We’re already spending more than we bring in yet you are apparently endorsing a healthcare plan that will add substantially to that burden.

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Jimmy Carter,

“Slick way of saying you’re not doing your job as Secretary of State.”

It is hard to do your job when Congress won’t follow through on its duty. Her argument seems quite reasonable and makes much sense on the international level. Notice how she does not lay blame with either party.

“Testifying before a congressional committee, Clinton said fights between the White House and Congress have led to “gridlock” in appointing officials to critical positions, including those with key foreign policy and international assistance responsibilities. That has created confusion among friends and allies, she said.”

“”It became harder and harder to explain to countries, particularly countries of significance, why we had nobody in position for them to interact with,” Clinton said.”

“In another case, earlier this year several State Department appointees were among dozens caught in a blanket hold on Obama nominees by Sen. Richard Shelby, R-Ala., who placed it over concerns about a Air Force refueling tanker contrac in his home state and a new FBI explosives center he wants built there.”

“People don’t understand the way our system operates, they just don’t get it,” she said. “And their view does color whether the United States … is in a position going forward to demonstrate the kind of unity and strength and effectiveness that I think we have to in this very complex and dangerous world.”

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The good news about this administration’s success in righting the ship are just pouring in.

“WASHINGTON (AP) — Sales of new homes plunged to a record low in January, underscoring the formidable challenges facing the housing industry as it tries to recover from the worst slump in decades.

The Commerce Department reported Wednesday that new home sales dropped 11.2 percent last month to a seasonally adjusted annual sales pace of 309,000 units, the lowest level on records going back nearly a half century. The big drop was a surprise to economists who were expecting a 5 percent increase over December’s pace.”

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I agree with Bruno that it needs to be either single payer or a true free market system. I’d choose single payer. If you have any kind of illness above the level of the flu or something similar, you can rest assured your bill will be at least $5000 and probably twice that or more.

About a year or so ago, I read on the GA Department of Labor’s website that the average person in Georgia, who has been on their job for 10 years, makes about $15 an hour. If this person has been on the job that long, they are probably at least in their early 30’s, and may have a couple of kids. If they have employer provided insurance, they’ll probably be okay. If they don’t, they are going to be hurting because they aren’t going to be able to afford a policy for themselves and their family at that salary level.

And what about people who have already hit their lifetime limit on their insurance coverage? In most cases, no company will touch them (I personally know somebody in that position), so it’s find a job with insurance or play Russian Roulette.

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Drew @ 4.59,

Very perspicacious post.

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I’m having a hard time figuring out what chili has to do with paying for healthcare.

Enlighten me.

Please.

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jewcowboy

February 24th, 2010
4:56 pm

Bottom line – I’d have rather had Hillary win in 2008 than Obama. He is SUCH a novice. When he leaves office, hopefully in Jan. 2013, he should try for a spot on “Celebrity Apprentice”. I would just love watching the Donald point to him and say “you’re fired”!

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Percy,

how about a link to go with that data?

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It shows spine and if they want to be hypocrites, show no shame like the gop.

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http://www.taxfoundation.org/research/show/102.html

A wave of political “tax fairness” rhetoric in recent months has swept aside reasonable assessments of the Bush tax cuts. Tax cut critics have argued that the cuts have only helped the wealthiest Americans. However, 7.8 million low and middle-income families had their entire income tax liabilities erased by the cuts.

These changes affect families in different ways at different income levels. For example, raising the child credit amount has the biggest impact on families earning below $110,000 per year – the phase out level – while the marginal rate cuts are more beneficial to families with higher incomes. The marriage penalty changes are most beneficial for families earning up to about $75,000 per year.

For the median family with two children, earning $67,000 per year, the Bush plan would mean a tax cut of $1,133 this year, erasing 22% of their current tax liability. A family earning $40,000 will see 96% of their tax liability erased, while a family earning $200,000 will see just 9% of their tax liability erased.

The calculations below assume a working couple with two children. We also assume the standard deduction for families earning $40,000 to $75,000. For families earning $100,000 and above, we assume itemized deductions worth 20% of AGI.

Families earning below $35,000 are not included because the tax cuts enacted in 2001 effectively eliminated their entire income tax liability.

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“I’d have rather had Hillary win in 2008 than Obama”

Amen.

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jewcowboy

February 24th, 2010
5:09 pm

You know, I think Ann Coulter was right. There was very little difference between Hillary Clinton and John McCain. I could have lived with either one, but I feel that I, and millions more Americans, will eventually get screwed by Obama.

As a footnote, I would love to have known who she would have picked as her VP.

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And that gets us to the second, more important point. The Breitbart site is lying. He is playing his audience for fools, and the sad part is that they don’t mind

If Bookman wasn’t smirking when he wrote that, thinking to himself of thousands of bald faced lies he tells each and every day, then he is mildly retarded, just sayin….

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Midori

February 24th, 2010
5:11 pm

You said “You couldn’t pay me to rehash that nonsense.” LOL!! All I said was if we don’t have the money to pay for it then don’t pass healthcare legislation. I can’t dumb it down any more for you.

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Later folks.

Need to prepare dinner……

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“I’d have rather had Hillary win in 2008 than Obama”

Count me in as well. I’d much rather be accused of sexism than racism.

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thanks jimmy.

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You all do understand that when you, say, have an increase in annual AGI from, say, $400 million to $500 million, that you actually should pay more in taxes. Unless of course Bush managed to get in another tax cut using reconciliation that I do not know about. If so, when did he set it to expire in order to pay for it down the road.

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It’s impossible to associate Obama with suggestions given his actions during 13+ months in office.

Weed my wips IT’S IMPOSSIBLE TO ASSOCIATE OBAMA WITH SUGGESTIONS GIVEN HIS ACTIONS DURING 13+ MONTHS IN OFFICE!!!

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And man oh man was that a great hockey game between the USA and the Swiss?

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“I’d have rather had Hillary win in 2008 than Obama”

I felt that way in 2008 because Obama was an unknown quantity.

I’d rather Hillary win in 2012 because now Ima Gonna is a known quantity.

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RW–
Believe it or not, so long as they didn’t run GOP or DEM, I might be able to get behind it…

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josef:

Mike Huckabee!!?!! No way would I even vote for Mike Huckabee.

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“Tax cut critics have argued that the cuts have only helped the wealthiest Americans. However, 7.8 million low and middle-income families had their entire income tax liabilities erased by the cuts.”

Nice strawman. The fact that Bush and the Republican Party threw crumbs at the rest of us doesn’t change the fact that the loaf went to the rich: per the Center for Budget and Policy Priorities, even excluding the Paris Hilton tax cut, 60% of the Republican tax cuts went to the wealthiest 20% of America, with 25% going to the wealthiest 1%.

http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=2116

As noted, you should think of that as a debt-financed loan to the richest Americans, which you and your children and your grandchildren will pay for.

I am absolutely fascinated by the obviously-not-rich conservatives in these threads: on the one hand, they are outraged about debt and whatnot, and on the other hand, they steadfastly demand that the government continue to loan money to the rich in the form of more and more tax cuts. Amazing!

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This link is a terrific summary of raw data from the IRS. You can just look at the tables and ignore the preface commentary to remain “unbiased”. My spot checks of the data against the IRS sources tells me that data presented is the same as the IRS-provided raw data spreadsheets.

http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/250.html

Notice that they state that the top 1% paid 40.42% of of taxes in 2007.

TaxPolicyCenter.org presents virtually identical tables at

http://www.taxpolicycenter.org/taxfacts/displayafact.cfm?Docid=534

Although they present the data oddly, perhaps because you have to do the math in your head to see that the top 1% pay 40.42%, because they show what the bottom 99% paid (i.e., they show that the bottom 99% paid 59.58% of the taxes, which means that the top 1% paid 100-59.58% = 40.42%) in 2007.

Note the raw numbers match, and the numbers match the IRS data sourced.

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There is nothing in capitalism that says insurance should only be a hedge against catastrophic loss. That is the historical purpose for the existence of insurance, but capitalism only provides a market, not a rule.

IN fact, the growth and evolution of health insurance is a prime example of how capitalism works to create a product that is wanted: from a limited type of catastrophic insurance to a provider of health care. (I use the words “provider of health care” deliberately.)

In the ’50s and 60s that the detestible unions pushed for employers to provide health insurance for employees. Providing health insurance became normative as more and more union and non-union companies provided it. As time went on, all workers, union and nonunion, wanted more and more coverage and less and less cost. These were good years for the American economy so companies gave it to them.

Like magic, insurers got with employers and came up with products that gave more and more coverage. AFter the stupid government got in the game and created HMO’s, the insurers got the idea of cutting costs by negotiating rates with doctors and hospitals in exchange for sending business their way. Insurers put co-pays in their plans and replaced most of the co-insurance (you pay 20%, they pay 80%) with fixed dollar co-pays. Capitalism at work – the public demanded and the market responded.

Now, there are lots of reasons why this went crazy – none of which have to do with tort reform and will not be more that microscopically affected by tort reform. (I know you didn’t say anything about tort reform but I am trying to head of the stupid idea being put forward as some sort of solution.) But, if you want to blame anyone or anything for it all going crazy, looks like you will have to blame detestible unions (for starting it) and the stupid government for giving the market the ideas of HMOs. (A little blame also goes to globalization for killing the American golden calf.) After that, capitalism did its things and created what the market wanted.

That is it. The market did this. There were no federal regulations except for the period when HMO’s were created and then COBRA type stuff. What we have seen is capitalism at work. This is one of the freest, least regulated markets we have had, at least from a federal government viewpoint.

What went wrong? Nothing. The capitalist model allows for this disfunction to develop. We then go thru a period of dissolution. That is a messy time when the market really fails us because the old model is failing and the new model is still forming. Normal, but messy. If we were talking about the steel industry, we would be talking about jobs lost and mills closing, towns becoming almost ghost towns. Since we are talking about health insurance, we are talking about people going without health care, costs rising, jobs lost now as employers hire fewer workers in order to pay for insurance for the ones they already have, eventually jobs losses in the insurance industry. After a while, this could be several decades, something new will be created and become the “good”.

My theory on what is wrong is that consumers are estranged from the health care market. That is, the insurers negotiate rates and set up networks. The providers (hospitals, doctors, etc.) are clients of the insurers. The consumers (you, me, and millions of others) are also clients of the insurers. We don’t buy health care, we buy health insurance. Our purchasing decisions are based on premiums, co-pays, co-insurance, and out-of-pocket maximum. We don’t know or have to be concerned with what the doctor charges for a physical exam or what the hospital charges for ICU room use. We don’t pay them anything more than limied co-pays and co-insurance up until the out-of-pocket maximum is reached. Our health care use decisions are not based on the cost because we don’t pay it.

Now, before you think I think we should go back to the old capitalist market for a solution, I need to tell you I also think that health care needs to be a public good and not a market good. Like clean drinking water. But that is only my thought.

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How’s this for a conscious effort to deceive?

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Josef & RW,

I cannot start swooning over Michelle Obama. People that swooned over Barach Obama now see what swooning can do for you. I still remember the first words that were publicized about her in reference to her feelings about the USA. Now she’s all polished up and speaking nice, Wonder why she did not do that while listening to Jeremiah Wright for 20 years?

I wish her success in other endeavors but I’d rather see her and her husband out of the White House. I see no improvement for this country under the Obama administration. The making of an astronomic debt continues without even slowing. That is incomprehensible..

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Argument -might- have validity -if- usage of reconciliation process itself is a violation of the intent of what it is intended to do. It is not intended to be a backdoor mechanism to gain passage of legislation (like heathcare reform) when a majority cannot get it through normal legislative means. Attempting to “ho-hum” something so blatantly against the intent of the process is as laughable mischaracterization as you are accusin Bretbart.

It is equally laughable to claim that is the opposition to these collectivist power-grabs are the ones creating an environment that is negative. Quit trying a takeover of 1/6 of American GDP wherein cost to most taxpayers will rise, quality will go down, and the culture of dependence will spread -THEN, we can address tone! Quit trying to ram through legislation via any means that has dwindling support from the majority of taxpayers, THEN we can discuss cooperation!

Until the, expect oppositionto stop this collectivist boondoggle perpetuated by thieving liberals who are trying with legislation what muggers do with guns!

-SD

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Dusty…

Now, now…you’re taking me far too seriously on “ticket.” And, no, I’m not swooning and no, I haven’t forgotten the Richard Wright thingie, nor her comment on the first time being proud of her country. Nor have I forgotten Huckabee comments on gay rights, But, I do believe in giving credit where credit is due and they conducted themselves with respect and dignity and could reach a common cause above and beyond the political divide. Which is more than I can say for many of those who swoon over the one or the other.

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@@

Actually, I have no problem with your reasoning. It conforms with what I would expect from you and your perspective, and, no, other posters, that was not meant to be sarcastic. I epected a reasoned response and I got one.

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The only people bashing Paul Ryan’s medicare plan are liberals. He’s received plenty of support from Conservative pundits AND voters.

The second charge against the Roadmap (Ryan’s) is that “ends Medicare as we know it.” Yes, but only for Americans 55 or younger — these are the same people, in other words, who face a fiscal nightmare as entitlement spending surges in the coming decades and Medicare and Social Security become insolvent.

Watch Paul Ryan take on Tim Geithner

Impressive!

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“How would we handle the significant part of the population for whom a non-catastrophic loss — say $5,000 or $2,000 — is a lot more than they could afford? And would you make catastrophic insurance mandatory, and if so would you subsidize it for those unable to afford it?”

Jay– My basic premise is that if you eliminate the 55% of dollars that are wasted in our healthcare system, then finding sources of funding to “cover” everyone will be greatly simplified, whatever form that “coverage” takes. Obama and the Democrats have paid some lip service to lowering costs, but they seem afraid to take on the beast which causes the high prices in the first place–the third-party payment system.

http://www.pwc.com/us/en/healthcare/publications/the-price-of-excess.jhtml

Personally, I’m not in favor of mandated health insurance, but would be a lot more open to such a mandate if it applied only to the catastrophic portion of the coverage. As for the poorest among us, free care is already provided via Medicaid. That will never change.

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The good old days. Why I remember that back in my day we had to go through so many parliamentarians to get the rulings that we wanted that we just plain lost count. We’ll get back to those days again. Then we can set things right again.

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“Mike accusing me of being tedious and predictable.”

As I’ve said before, Jay, I wouldn’t like your job due to all the abuse you have to take from the keyboards of angry strangers. But you get your shots in too, however clever you make them.

I appreciate you taking time to spar with me today. Sometimes it seems you only respond to the obviously deranged right-wingers.

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“I bet I can get you and Jay to agree, at least that I’m full of sh*t…”

Not a tough chore, josef, since you already agree with the statement yourself. Which is one of the big reasons I like you so much–you don’t take yourself too seriously, and you realize that your views are simply that: the views of one particular person in a particular set of circumstances. All politics is local.

Not sure how my blog persona comes across, but I am a fairly modest, humble person in “real life”. That is until somewhat starts claiming that they are smarter than someone else (TaxPayer). That brings out my ugly side.

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…and Bruno! Pair-dohn if you view my “thbbppptttt” as deranged.

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“The only people bashing Paul Ryan’s medicare plan are liberals. He’s received plenty of support from Conservative pundits AND voters.”

None of whom are the leadership of the Republican Party, and thus able to speak for the Republican Party. That said, maybe those conservative pundits and conservative voters should convince their conservative leaders – John Boehner and Mitch McConnell – to take Paul Ryan’s plan to gut Medicare to the summit, rather than arrive with nothing. I think it would be good for the Republican Party to be honest with the American people, tell them that the Republican plan is to gut Medicare, and let the American people decide whether they support that.

Because I think it would make for an interesting 2010 if the Republican Party were to tell the truth.

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Minutiae.

Nuclear option or not, Americans are not going to stand for this Marxist piece of legislation.

Can anyone name one instance where the US Government mandates the purchase of a product of any kind under penalty of law? Just for the privilege of being a US citizen?

Didn’t think so.

If the Demos go through with this, it’s sharpen the pitchforks, fire up the tar, and pluck some chickens time!

Americans won’t put up with this travesty.

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“Oh goodie! I get to be deranged too! (ISH)”

Welcome to the club.

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@@

“Come to think of it, jay rarely, if ever engages with the deranged left-wingers. Why is that, jay?”

He sometimes engages me! ISH

BRUNO–
Thanks for agreeing I’m full of sh*t!

But there’s nothing galls me quite so much as somebody coming off, as that poster you mentioned, as if they’re smarter than someone else. The idea of prefacing what they’re saying with “in my opinion,” “the way I see it,” “from what I’ve read,” etc. is as alien as life on Tralfamador.

Folks take themselves far, far too seriously. And your statement that all politics is local is the very essence of Jeffersonian Democracy and the reason that I will stick to the liberal label in mine…

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“I agree with Bruno that it needs to be either single payer or a true free market system. I’d choose single payer.”

HD–Your endorsement of my idea is a tremendous compliment. Your opinion means more to me than almost anyone else’s here, including my own sometimes.

“Free, universal health care. Nothing less.”

As a hard-core conservative, josef, I am far more open to your idea than the mandated coverage idea. If the goal is universal coverage, then socialized medicine is the way to go. BTW, I’m sure you already know, but your opinion means nothing to me, you Mississippi Rebel.

“I already said that overall costs are something that ALSO needs to be addressed, but yes, if it means – in the short run – perpetuating an inefficient system in order to get universal coverage, then that is what it takes.”

And this is where I once again feel motivated to challenge you, Doggone. Lowering the overall costs of health care is the only way to make it affordable again, whether you choose to pay for your care directly or use a third-party payment system. Obama and the Dems have done a great job at creating the illusion that mandated purchase of insurance = universal health care, but they are two entirely different beasts. If you want single-payer, then ask the Dems to create a bill to that effect and let Congress vote on it.

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josef:

Everybody (liberals) knows your a “D range” right-winger.

(ISH)

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Constitutional Amendment requiring a Balanced Federal Budget.

Hip, Hip, Hooray !

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Try the Taliban at the Fulton County Courthouse! We have a stellar security record here in Atlanta !

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“Feed me Khalid Sheik Mohammed”

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Looks like I stirred up a hornet’s nest with my “deranged” comment. Lot of guilty consciences on board tonight??

josef–Caught the Vonnegut reference. Loved all his novels as a teen, still remember all the plots from Player Piano through Breakfast of Champions. Two of my faves were God Bless You Mr. Rosewater and The Sirens of Titan. One of his most fascinating concepts to me, being the science geek I am, was the idea of ice-9, a form of water that crystallized at room temperature. In the end, one crystal of it unleashed destroyed the planet.

Jerry Garcia actually bought the movie rights to Sirens of Titan, but never got a finished product to the screen. Still laugh at Vonnegut’s cameo on Back to School.

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Dear Jay @ 4:37, I respectfully think you need to expand your vocabulary, if I read you correctly. I think you define “nuclear option” as “declaring immoral any filibuster blocking presidential nominees.” I agree that presidents – even mediocre ones I don’t like – should be allowed to choose their team. The conservatives branded their own abolition of non-policy filibusters as the “nuclear option” because they accurately perceived it have an adverse effect on the traditional comity of the Senate.

In contrast, you affirm that using a fiscal budget reconciliation tool to remake freedoms and rights of every person, the general powers of the states, and the economics of one-sixth of the country is not a nuclear option. Do you truly think the democrats’s proposed use of reconciliation for this purpose will have no adverse effect on comity? Speaking as your ideological opposite, I can assure you it is the nuclear option, whether you recognize it or not.

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What’s not to like about Hillbilly? He’s a man of few words that deserve heeding. Don’t have to come to the same conclusion, just heed.

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Bruno–

Though it’s hard to pick a favorite, “Slaughterhouse 5″ had the most lasting impact, but the one that gets the most laughs around our house is “Slapstick.” “…I’m an old f*rt now with my memories…” “..gravity was light today…” and, Unmentionable’s predecessor was named Carlos, and didn’t treat me right, “…and Carlos was really a very stupid man…”

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Bruno:

Guilty conscience? Look elsewhere ’cause this girl don’t carry burdens. They’ll drag ‘ya down.

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“Mike accusing me of being tedious and predictable.

I don’t know what to say about that.”

I’d say it takes one to know one…

“Oh good! Live sex acts on the hoods of cars on Peachtree Street again. Just some kids having fun. Nothing you wouldn’t have seen on Peachtree in the 40’s and 50’s right ?”

Nope it was happening in the back seats of cars back then.

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I love it-

DIANNE FEINSTEIN MAY 18, 2005: The nuclear option, if successful, will turn the Senate into a body that could have its rules broken at any time by a majority of senators unhappy with any position taken by the minority. It begins with judicial nomination, next will be executive appointments, and then legislation.

Of course the dummycrats want to jump right to legislation.

Bookman, you’re a stooge.

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“but the one that gets the most laughs around our house is “Slapstick.”

Wow. If you notice, my Vonnegut sequence ended at Breakfast of Champions, just short of Slapstick. I felt like he started losing his edge after BoC, kind of like an athlete who plays too long, or a musician that loses their creativity. So why is Slapstick the only Vonnegut novel in my bookcase today? Because a girl I had a crush on in 11th grade gave it to me as a birthday gift and wrote a very sweet inscription inside.

“Though it’s hard to pick a favorite, “Slaughterhouse 5″ had the most lasting impact”

One of the few cases in which the movie lived up well to the original work it was based upon. Schlachthof 5 oder Der Kinderkreuzzug. One of the reasons JG bought the rights to Sirens of Titan was to ensure that no one put out a crappy version.

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Thanks for the ISH explanation, josef. Here’s a new one for the JB blog: IMFH–Insert Middle Finger Here.

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Bruno–

I couldn’t agree more on the film-book summation.

More on Vonnegut…

LIBERAL CRAP I NEVER WANT TO HEAR AGAIN

Give us this day our daily bread. Oh sure.

Forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those wh trespass against us.
Nobody better trespass against me. I’ll tell you that.

Blessed are the meek.

Blessed are the merciful. You mean we can’t use torture?

Blessed are the peacemakers. Jane Fonda?

Love your enemies – Arabs?

Ye cannot serve God and Mammon. The hell I can’t! Look at the Reverand Pat Robertson. And He is as happy as a pig in s**t.

(video and more at the link above)

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Confused By ‘Nuclear Option’ Spin, Right-Wingers Claim Obama And Biden Called Reconciliation A ‘Power Grab’

The made a mistake doing this the day before the health care summit. Now Obama can set the record straight tomorrow in front of the TV cameras.

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/02/24/nuclear-option-reconciliation/

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The effort to at least try to be honest in our discussion, even if our own bias means we come up short, ought to be the minimum required of responsible citizenship
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Let me understand the argument Jay makes. He defends using a process reserved for passing budget bills by using an example of someone attaching a non-budget action to a budget bill which is somewhat dishonest.

The reconciliation was developed primarily for budget bills. Any action which is non-budgetary is dishonest. Parts of the health care bill could be legitimately considered budgetary. Parts not the whole thing.

Andrew Jackson ignored supreme court rulings because he could, does that make OK for future presidents to ignore them.

If it were to me I would go with a public option so you know I not making the argument to justify means for an end.

Democrats and liberal making such an argument are not really being honest with themselves. They had several months to pass a bill but failed.

http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/2/644.html

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Frank @ 7:15

That’s exactly why I think we should blow up (figuratively, not literally) the whole income tax system and start over.

Thanks to all for the kind words but now I got to find a bigger hat. (IW&SH)

And if all y’all get to be deranged, I want to be deranged, too. Do I get a secret decoder ring or anything?

Speaking of income tax, Kyle has a pretty interesting piece over on his side today.

Way back in the day, I saw “Slaughterhouse 5″. To tell the truth, I did’t much care for the movie but Valerie Perrine made quite an impression.

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Would liberals really say health care is that much more important that it is worth risking the elections on?

If the purpose of politics is to get re-elected, then no.

If the purpose of politics is to help the country, then yes.
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
When I see statement like these it scares me. Politicians are suppose to represent the people who voted for them. If policians believe the people are wrong then they should try to convince them the are right not ignore them.

Dictators don’t have to worry about elections. How often do we see dictators who don’t have to worry about what elections do what is good for the country. Elections are a regulator on politcians who are “claiming” to do what’s good for the country.

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Moderate Line @ 7:28 Brings up some very good points.

“Reconciliation” is to be used for matters pertaining ONLY to the federal budget.

I disagree with Moderate about the public option.

Both political parties use this BS loophole far too often.

Obamacare is way out of bounds for this tactic.

The plan was rejected… Fair and square. No matter how you spin it.

Move on Mr. Obama…..

We need jobs NOW !

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Drew@6:35, Let’s not argue. Let’s see what transpires the next day or so. I stand by what I said.
The bill is not free. There’s that trillion dollars you need to address plus the billions the states do not have. Furthermore, the bill doesn’t reduce health care premiums or cost of care.
By your overestimating the conservatives (for the message) & underestimating the public (for not getting it right) proves the point I made. The American people got it & got it on their own. They’re not brainwashed, hogtied or covered in fleece.
The poll numbers I used were the very latest from Rasmussen, the most accurate in calling the last 15 mts. of elections.

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“More on Vonnegut…”

LOL.

Here’s my all-time favorite Vonnegut quote:

“”Love is where you find it. I think it is foolish to go around looking for it, and I think it can be poisonous. I wish people who are conventionally supposed to love each other would say to each other, when they fight, ‘Please-a little less love, and a little more common decency.”

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yosef- This is the most absolutely disgusting and rancid Congress that we have ever had, in 230 some years of existence, when the are in session America suffers as never before, one most wonder what their true intentions really are and Bookman creates, out of whole clothe, propaganda on their behalf.

I apologize if I associated him with Moe, Larry and Curly.

I did not mean slander their good name like that.

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“I think he’ll be the one who comes out looking like the man who should be president.”

Which, from my perspective, is Obama’s biggest handicap as a leader–he keeps confusing “style” with actual leadership. Like Bush or not, but he was a leader and he got things done. He even got all the Congressional Democrats to vote for the Patriot Act–twice. Obama can’t get his health care bill through even with a super-majority in both houses.

Still swooning at his “intelligence”, Jenifer?

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IR/YW

You’re on a roll tonight! But I disagree on this being the worst Congress ever…those back in the 1861-1890 period make this one look good….and the one in the late 1850s runs it a close second…this one is, at best, just third rate…also ran…just my opinion…

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GOP Already Has Seven Reasons Why Health Care Summit Isn’t Legit

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/02/24/gop-already-has-seven-rea_n_475653.html

8. The room is not big enough for our supporters…(teabaqqers to scream and holler.)

9. The chairs don’t have any cushions on them. We need cushions if we’re going to sit for 6 hours…(never sat for an hour going over legislation.)

10. The lights are too bright for my orange tan…(Boehner)

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Bush is an idiot. He just plain refused to clear my dear friend, Scooter’s, good name for me. It’s not like I ever asked for anything for myself. It’s torture, I say.

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Bruno

As for Ima Gonna, when he took off on that Rainbow Tour during the campaign, I said we were in for a cheap and tacky remake of Evita…and since you know Spanish, you’ll catch the double entendre, but “…evita a Obamita…”

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IR/YW:

Your 7:52 and 7:55 take me back to the days when, for a brief time, you signed each post with “Love, Andy”.

I’m laughing just thinking about it.

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yosef- My critique of the current Congress does not hinge on some narrowly defined grievance, after all, America survived and prospered after 1861 or whatever year you happen to despise.

After these current criminals are finished with us, I’m not so sure about that survival thing.

These $#^@**&^ couldn’t care less about our future.

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Redneck– heh, heh!

Hillbilly–
The best way “to see” “2001″ is to buy the soundtrack. I’m not a big sci-fi fan myself. A real bone of contention in this house…

Log croaking amphibians…? Well, last night was turtle soup, frog legs anyone?

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“Using reconciliation to ram through complicated, far-reaching legislation is an abuse of the budget process. The writers of the Budget Act, and I am one, never intended for its reconciliation’s expedited procedures to be used this way. These procedures were narrowly tailored for deficit reduction. They were never intended to be used to pass tax cuts, or to create new Federal regimes. Additionally, reconciliation measures must comply with Section 313 of the Budget Act, known as the Byrd Rule, which means that whatever health legislation is reported from the Finance Committee or legislation from any other Committee that is shoe-horned into reconciliation will sunset after five years. Additionally, numerous other non-budgetary provisions of any such legislation will have to be omitted under reconciliation. This is a very messy way to achieve a goal like health care reform, and one that will make crafting the legislation more difficult.”

“Whatever abuses of the budget reconciliation process which have occurred in the past, or however many times the process has been twisted to achieve partisan ends does not justify the egregious violation done to the Senate’s Constitutional purpose. The Senate has a unique institutional role.”

Senator Robert Byrd

http://byrd.senate.gov/speeches/view_article.cfm?ID=366

Who is being dishonest in this arguement?

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hey everybody Andy knows where to get free drugs!!!

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Ex-Officer Pleads Guilty In Katrina Killing Probe

After all this time, I never thought the day would come.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100225/ap_on_re_us/us_katrina_bridge_shooting

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BRUNO and HD

I may be the only person in Western Civilization who’s never seen Star Wars, ditto the Star Trek ones…had to be pulled kicking and screaming to “Babylon 5,” but became a fan in short order…those were some highly educated producers, directors, writers and actors…

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FrankLee—

Where? Where?

Bruno–
“Titanic” is another one I’ve never seen…

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I love the notion that people would put their petty, miserable little problems of every day life ahead of the survival of the entire country, it is so….comforting.

Why people still want to die for this train wreck…..I’ll never know.

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“Collective stupidity where there once was collective brilliance.”

damn for once I agree,just a difference on how we got here

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Lindsey Graham Is Mad That Harry Reid Said The GOP Should “Stop Crying” About Reconciliation

Somehow I just figured Miss Lindsey knows a lot about crying.

http://videocafe.crooksandliars.com/heather/lindsey-graham-mad-harry-reid-said-gop-sho

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Great attitude, Hillbilly, what, should we all come over and fluff your pillow?

So you’ve just been reincarnated as Emily Post?

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Like I said, josef, I smelled ugliness in the air, and it has reared its head.

Reporter–My Little League coach gave us some good advice one time. Describing a fight his brother had been in earlier in the day, he said “Boys, on the ground with a hillbilly’s boot on top of your head is no place to be.”

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josef ,if you could tolerate babylon 5 you should check out star trek deep space nine.

I love me some vonnegut but I think William Gibson is the shiz nit

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FrankLee
Unmentionable keeps telling me that…

BTW–leeches are still used in medicine…to control gangrene…

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Nice one, Bruno. According to an interview I heard with Gregg once, that was Duane’s favorite song.

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And here’s one by Kris Kristofferson that always cuts deep:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=parlZcc4vp4

Beggar standin’ on the corner sing your song, sing it for a dime…..

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yosef- I know good immigrants. You, sir, are not a good immigrant, just sayin…

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LOL, Reporter.

FrankLee–Ultimately, nature’s way is usually the best. Leeches can clean an infected area better than any scalpel.

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Hey Bruno @ 7:56

Glad to see some clear vision here. You posted:”Obama_____keeps confusing ’style’ with actual leadership. Like Bush or not, but he was a leader and he got things done. He even got all the Congressional Democrats to vote for the Patriot Act–twice. Obama can’t get his health care bill through even with a super majority in both houses.”

I like your impartial observations. Keep going!

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IR/YW

Nope, not an immigrant. Born, bred and raised here in Uncle Sam’s Oldest Colony (that’s Alan Tate in case you want to know who called it that)…

BRUNO–

Mississippi Queen was one of my nicknames back in college Up North…my friend, D, from Yazoo City was called the Delta Queen…
And thanks, that’s one of my favorites of theirs…

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Hillbilly (and you, too, Bruno)
I’ve been meaning to ask…Are you familiar with Marshall Chapman’s first album, 1977, “Me I’m Feelin Free?”

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Bruno- My bad for not educating you on the true meaning of the .45 Colt story, when the Warlocks see the barrel of my favorite sidearm, they’re done dealin, just sayin….

You don’t see it until it is too late.

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Bruno–
“I doubt if any of the Libs here would label me as impartial, although I do try to keep my rants fairly reasonable.”

I won’t presuppose to speak for the others, but I find you refereshingly impartial and, to the best of my recollection, I’ve never known you to go off on a rant…

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can deception be anything but a conscious effort?

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I shouldn’t say that, I was at the Greyhound bus station in downtown Chicago picking up a friend and there was this homeboy, dressed like a pimp, yelling at his homegirl, in the funniest way, well, at least I thought it was funny. He didn’t. Didn’t much like the way I was laughing at him either. I guess he decided he was going to express his displeasure with me first hand, started walking over and asking me what my problem was. I told him that I didn’t have a problem but that he did and then put my pretty little .380 auto up on the dashboard where he could see it.

Homey went back to yelling at his ho, just sayin…

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The Chicago homeys wouldn’t stand a chance in Camden. Just sayin’.

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Headline CBS: “Pedophile Pediatricians Remain in Shadows”

Ah, excuse me but are they getting ready to come out of the closet ………. like some of our other friends?

Are they going to serve their country as Army doctors (as long as they only treat anyone over 18)?

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Josef

I have seen Marshall Chapman on TV some but not really familiar with that album.

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“Picking up a friend at the Greyhound station, eh? Hmmmm, just’ sayin’”

And his favorite rock band is called AC/DC. Just sayin’

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Conscious effort to deceive….. what words from a liberal trying to dodge the reality that his heros are hypocrites. Just like the sound bites of all of the Democrats on WMDs. Nearly everyone of them said that Saddam Hussein represented the greatest threat to the security of America and that we should protect America’s security by bringing his reign to an end. John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, Charles Shumer…… numerous others stated that the fear from the Saddam threat was unacceptable to our security and that, by unanimous vote, we should enter Iraq and eliminate the threat. Then, when no WMDs were found, they jumped ship like rats in a flood and gave W the most intense criticism of his presidency. Trying to have it both ways…… trying to look good to the electorate……. making at attempt at credibility. All failures. And we have it on tape. You can’t wiggle out of this one, Bookman.

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yosef- Not all people who use Greyhound are queer, just sayin.. And most of them don’t throw a fit in public about their situation either, like you libs do. It was a relative that I was giving a job to, 20 years ago.

Bruno- You may want to check the statistics, obozo’s Chicago is like the murder capital of the world. I often wonder how many I could have prevented by letting the situation escalate, if you know what I mean.

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Hillbilly–
The cut on it, “Somewhere South of Macon” speaks to that Yankee capitalist colonial imperialism in much the same fashion as the Grady commentary you linked me to, only in the country metier…

This is a not very good cover of it…but nowhere near what Marshall Chapman does with it…you just gotta be from a mill town to understand the “soul” Chapman puts in it…but it’s the only one I have been able to find…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O_fXquOcD50

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JAY–
And the INSURED VALUE of that property was, according to Judah Benjamin’s farewell address to ther US Senate, $1.000,000,000 in 1861 dollars…where did THAT wealth go? Like SoCo and I keep saying, when Aetna backs it’s crocodile tears with a little coin of the realm, their apologies might carry a little more weight…

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HD–Enjoying the Greg Allman selection.

If I knew more about computers, I would fix it so my posts would be highlighted just like Jay’s. That would blow him out of the water. Since he’s got grey, I guess I’ll have to take blue, to represent the victors of the War of Southern Stupidity. (ducking Hillbilly’s flying boot)

Actually, the part of Jersey I’m from is technically south of the Mason-Dixon Line, so y’all have been wrongly maligning me here.

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BRUNO

Watch your step or we’ll take back your landed immigrant status!

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Well, Jay, I have a little higher opinion of Democrats than you do. After 9/11 it was quite obvious that there was a threat to the USA. Any disaster like that stirred the heart of every American. Democrats were no different at that time. They cared about this country. All of them believed the CIA reports and the UK reports. They fought back.

Now, you won’t even give them that credit. Perhaps you have never felt what the majority felt and deny that it is there. Or either, like other Democrats, you dismissed the threat and turned on Bush, even though he had warned that it was easy to slip away from being strong. He was right.

Hillary’s loss had nothing to do with voting against aggresion. She has never been a popular figure but is beginning to look better. I don’t think she would like your opinion. Why should any Democrat like your opinion about their patriotic vote to keep our country safe?

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Can we say ignominy here?

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I guess for a history buff, the Philadelphia area and even South Jersey should be a treasure trove. One time I did go see a place called Pea Patch Island, which was a Northern Prison during the Civil War off the coast of Delaware. If I recall correctly, it didn’t have a good reputation, but don’t know if it raised to the level of Andersonville in ignominy.

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JAY

Keep ‘em guessing about? I’m not following that…no sarcasm intended…

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“Had she voted against the war, she’d probably be president today.”

Her State was attacked and we had unity.

Of course she voted yes.

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The Hillary vote…I agree with Jay on that…it cost her and it should not have. She made it clear that given the information she had at the time, she’d do it again…got my attention as an honest approach. I also kinda liked it when she came in late to the press conferance and begged excuse since she had been pinned down by gunfire…a sense of self-irony…we could use more like that…

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Well, Jay, seems you knew more than the CIA, British Intel, all the info that the President and the Congress saw about 9/11. Too bad you did not go to Washington and explain that 9/11 was just a prank, that Saddam Hussein was a nice guy without wmds, that the Kurds were not really gasssed, that there were no terrorists even thinking about Iraq, and that YOU THINK that the USA just wanted oil. I’m sure they would be just as impressed at your knowledge as I am. Now why didn’t you tell those poor ignorant people in Washington about your vast pool of knowledge??

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Getting late–Here’s a tune we can all learn from. I think Jay might even like this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZM1y-aZ4UpI

“Fear, fear, she’s the mother of violence”

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Fort Delaware was on Pea Patch Island, so I may have stood in one of the actual cells your relative was held in. Not a pleasant place, as you can imagine. In my earlier post i compared it with Andersonville, but didn’t think it rose to the same level of ignominy.

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It is apparent that most all politicians would pilfer the gold in their mother’s teeth for the sake of image. Many times in the past, as Harry Reid pointed out, the nuclear option was threatened and criticized by all of those on the opposite side of the aisle. The Democrats came out hot and heavy in the sound bites that Bookman posted and tried to make them look like unfair, dishonest uncaring fools. Then when the Democrats threaten to use the same tactic to pass their beloved health care leglislation, the shoe is on the other foot and now the Democrats are the party which is going to bring down the bicameral system and defy all those things that the founding fathers thought was so sacred. I don’t trust any of them to tell the truth, no matter what party. It is obvious by the new CBS political poll on Bozo that most of America doesn’t trust them,either.

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All the people who dislike the current president seem to forget that the previous president lost the popular vote to al gore and ruled like he had a super majority. They pushed through everything they wanted and didn’t give a damn about the minority. Reconciliation was used twice for tax cuts. No matter who followed, they were destined to be screwed because of the dung heap left at the doorstep of the white house. Now, people want to attach the whole famdam thing to this president and erase all the actions of the previous. Health care is a tough issue but please get us all some relief, and stop this nuclear bs smokescreen, it just goes on and on…

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You know them Kurds, Josef. ‘Member them pictures of all those folks lying on the ground dead as doornails. I mean ever’body, women & children, gassed in a whole village! Yeah, them Kurds!

By the way, Josef, my great grandpa fought just as hard as your great granpa. He also fought TB. After sleeping outside for two years while fighting for the Confederacy, he recovered. Thank goodnes, he didn’t get to New Jersey.. That’s enough to kill anybody.

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Bruno–

Actually the death rates at Ft. Delaware (and several other) Yankee pow camps from malnutrition and acts of reprisals and violence were higher than Andersonville–brought out first in the congressional hearings of the 1880s. What made it all the more an act of ignomy was that there was not the lack of resources found around Andersonville…an interesting read…

http://roughton-maas.com/immortal_600.htm

BTW did you see the History Channel’s program on Camp Douglass? Another of my ancestors, a 65 year old judge, was taken there under Order # 11, died and his body, we believe, thrown into the lake…

You may well have stood there. I’ve been and it’s the eeriest feeling…hard to describe…I felt much the same when I went to the spot he was taken pow…

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Scout,

I hope you are not a Girl Scout. They don’t give badges for the subjects that interest you.

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“New Jersey has the highest disparity of any state in the United States between what it gives to the federal government and what it receives. In fiscal year 2005, New Jersey taxpayers gave the federal government $77 billion, while only receiving $55 billion.”

Don’t think any Southern states can make a similar claim.

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Bruno, my dear friend.

You are damn near prescient. I just got home yesterday from an emergency appendectomy. And let me tell you, that was one helluva Tiny Demon! Argh…

But now I understand why the Rushheads love that Oxycodone so…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zZx2r3310sk

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As much as I’d like to stay around for a cultural analysis of the 10th Amendment. 19th Century Romantic Nationalism, and Marxist interpretation of imperialistic colonialism, tomorrow is a working day and the boss lady has already told me it ain’t going to be an easy one…so, I’ll take my unreconstruced a$$ to bed, secure in the knowledge that whatever else, I’m comfortable, happy and for the great-grandpappies, as the Chinese say, “the best revenge is living well!”

G’night all…!

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“But I have heard that parts of New Jersey are beautiful. Guess you have to be there.”

Let me put it this way, Dusty. Every time I take my Southern friends up for a visit, they say that it was nothing like they imagined and that they were bowled over by everyone’s hospitality. At the same time, there is a certain grittiness to folks from Jersey. We don’t like to take a lot of crap.

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Brother Am!

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Dusty – read about your water heater snafu – too bad you don’t live near my dad who is a retired plumber, he would’ve fixed you for free. He would’ve been happy just to have something to do; not to mention some good ole jersey hospitality for a damsel in distress…

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” In fiscal year 2005, New Jersey taxpayers gave the federal government $77 billion, while only receiving $55 billion.”

“Don’t think any Southern states can make a similar claim.”

Not too sure they are doing better, sounds like they haven’t figured out how to play that game.

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But now I understand why the Rushheads love that Oxycodone so…

I’m not a Rushhead but Oxycodone and Hydrocodone don’t seem to have the effect on me that they do on most people. Sometimes they’ll dull pain but that’s about it. Doctors tell me I have a high tolerance to pain and a high tolerance to pain killers. That’s a mixed blessing I guess.

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Damn Oxy:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvb65dCMjZI

Back in my days in Jersey, it was crystal meth.

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Oh, MIck, just read your last post. I wish your Dad had been here, too. That would be mighty fine to have a nice plumber for a friend.

At last, I am now the proud posessor of hot water and that is a good feeling. (But it does kill my escuse for skipping the daily shower!)

By the way, does your Dad own a Cadillac or a Jaguar?

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Am–if you’re still on board:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mU9_Q7PJuNQ&NR=1

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My dad had a cadillac but alas don’t get too far ahead with that thought, he had nine kids to raise. I still shake my head when I think about it but we had great fun and if you ever missed dinner, well tough luck..

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md

Because people try to escape from NY to jersey but you are right they eventually make it south. Plus there are many old timers like my uncle who would never leave.

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Scout,

Yes, indeed, let us keep America strong. But not by playing football. I’m against that but still watch it occasionally.

It isn’t so much the game, just the concussions, brain damage and all that stuff. When I see former athletes being helped around like they are zombies, I lose enthusiasm for football.. First thing you know, we’ll all be wearing white ribbons with little skulls in the drive against concussion. But I hope not.

Yep, women are helping keep this country strong. Just saw a picture of one who died fighting for our country. Just doing her part. Just like a woman.

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Here’s one for you, Dusty, from the same woman who gave us “I Am Woman”:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w31Sisa2TLo

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The ole “go out in a blaze of glory” routine.

I contend to this day they never planned to work together as they thought they had those 60 seats until Nov, MA threw a kink in their plans.

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md–It is ironic that Teddy’s legacy won’t be a passed health care bill, but as the lost Senate seat that allowed the bill to be defeated. Teddy is da man, I say!

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Gloom and doom? I’m dancing in the street that i won’t be paying any fines courtesy of Obama.

On a serious note, there are some elements of the bill that make sense. Why not pass the sensible provisions one at a time instead of bundling it into one massive, bloated, scary bill?

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Paying fines? OK then, just keep praying for good health cause that truly is your wealth..

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I do more than pray for good health, Mick, I take good care of myself. Weight is 167 at the moment.

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“How many times did Hussein violate the terms of the cease fire that ended Desert Storm? Dozens? Hundreds?”

Next order of business – pull out of that teethless, worthless, ever expensive UN. Then NATO………

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Talk about “narrow-minded”, what is it with these dem-ogogs and this johnny one-note obama health care mess that nobody wants (except the far left). Get over it, the vote on this by dems will put them out in Nov. 2010. Remember the less than 10% approval rating for Congress will wipe them out. They also like to rail against Fox or anyone else that opposes their views (joy behar, et. al.) But those media channels are slowly dying on the vine. ABC is cutting news staff, Fox is adding staff! Libs are poor losers!

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Collective stupidity…

As opposed to that singularity that you bring to the table, Whine. And what’s this about your little coach whipping out his pistol to keep you in line.

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Telling stories bout his little league coach whipping something out… (that explains the locker room in his mom’s basement…) and bragging about pistol whipping a pimp in chicago. Then compensating for inadequecies by boasting bout his .45.

Must’ve been the hard stuff last night.

I did take the wife and oldest son to the firing range this past weekend, when I pulled out the .50 cal and fired one off, I had EVERYBODY’s attention. I let the wife and boy shoot the nine and the .38…

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Tightwing Hole- I’d a seen your 50 cal bulge coming from a mile away and, Pow!, right between your beady eyes, just sayin….

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But why should the American people entrust their health care to a president who doesn’t even believe in the Hippocratic Oath? Why should the enfeebled trust a party that prides itself on snuffing out the life of Terri Schiavo?

It is not at all clear why the Democrats should enjoy the moral high ground on health care. At least the Republican proposals don’t involve killing anyone.-Nuemayr, AmSpec

Yeah but since the dummycrats are using it to immolate their own political party, it does serve a useful purpose, just sayin…

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Lawmakers grill Toyota chief -Urinal Front Page

“Lawmakers” of course meaning the “owner’s of General Motors.”

Kangaroo court stooge fascism, neato, just like any other third world country.

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NATO to restrict night raids in Afghanistan -Urinal

Easier for the enemy to see us, just sayin…

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Weiner Offends The GOP On House Floor: You’re All ‘Owned’ By The ‘Insurance Industry’!

Call it like it is, tell it like it is. Let the chips fall where they may.

http://thinkprogress.org/2010/02/24/anthony-weiner-subsidiary/

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House OKs Bill To Criminalize Intentional Miscarriages

I say make a man’s sperm just as sacrosanct as a woman’s eggs.

You don’t want to waste or destroy any eggs, you also have to ensure the protection of each and every single sperm.

Let’s start counting these puppies! No more spilling the seed. Think of the lives we’d save.

http://www.sltrib.com/utahpolitics/ci_14295563

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You’re joking, right Jenifer? Oh wait…you must be a muttonhead like Cynthia keeps talking about.

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In South Carolina Poll, Obama Does Better Than GOP Senators

In all fairness, Demented is working diligently on his image, having reduced his cross burning rallies in his home state from weekly to bi-weekly.

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2010/02/25/88258/in-south-carolina-poll-obama-does.html

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“This would apply to Obama and his ramming thru this HCare debacle.”

Also calling it a “jobs bill”. Just call it like it is…a big waste of spending!

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I guess the drinking game will involve Republicans using the phrase “ramming through,” today.

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Vinny, what part of health care being 17% – and rising- of our GDP do you not understand? We as a nation cannot continue to go down that path. It contributes to the deficit, cripples small businesses and bankrupts Americans. We accept your not being for health care reform and your political leanings, but take the time and do some serious inquiry into what the continued growth rate of our GDP being health care means. Republicans know this, but they are only looking forward to the next election. Every contender for the oval office on both the left and right during the presidential campaign championed health care reform. Now amnesia sets in.

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sfd…yep, looks like “ramming” is the word of the day.

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Never confuse a republican with the facts.

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Wine, Groceries, Car Repair: What Florida’s Rubio Charged To GOP

Is the bloom off golden boy?

http://www.miamiherald.com/2010/02/25/1499172/wine-groceries-car-repair-what.html

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“I guess the drinking game will involve Republicans using the phrase “ramming through,” today”

thank gawd I’m not driving …

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“Read my earlier post…”

I went the through the pages and didn’t see it….it’s still early . what time was it posted?

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“NATO spokesman Brig. Gen. Eric Tremblay, speaking alongside Azimi, urged Afghans to recognize that international troops are putting themselves in greater danger in order to try to protect civilians.

“We are going beyond the laws of armed conflict by increasing our risk,” Tremblay said. ”

Where’s scout, del , jarhead……so nice to know that neighbor John’s life is considered less important.

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Peadawg, 0726.

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USinUK:

By comparison …………… you are correct.

To All Liberals:

Please take the time to read this very important short local news article. Racism is morally wrong. We all know that. But you don’t realize how many of “your” freedoms you are losing when someone loses their right to be an ignorant racist if that’s what they want. None of this is the school’s busines – period ! This is a parental issue. We are headed down a very slippery slope here ……….. and the “thought” police are ready to pounce !

http://www.cbsatlanta.com/news/22665455/detail.html

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This is deception.
http://gatewaypundit.firstthings.com/2010/02/oh-me-oh-my-obama-caught-in-a-major-acorn-lie-video/

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Vote out the incumbents and start over

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Brakeman

Hopefully those brazen little kids will tell the school and staff to F-off.

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Peadawg:

Sorry, I worked with and saw both sides for almost 30 years. It’s an observable difference. Kind of like comparing politicians to dogs ………. they’re all dogs but some are labs and some are pit bulls.

You are entitled to your opinion.

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Riiiiight. I want the gubmint to be responsible for my healthcare.

Stafford Hospital caused ‘unimaginable suffering’

“An independent inquiry found that managers at Mid Staffordshire NHS Foundation Trust stopped providing safe care because they were preoccupied with government targets and cutting costs.”

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/life_and_style/health/article7039285.ece

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And the govt healthcare carnage continues:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1253438/Mid-Staffordshire-NHS-hospital-routinely-neglected-patients.html

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tick….tick….tick…

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/leading-articles/leading-article-the-real-lessons-of-this-nhs-disaster-1909596.html

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Brakeman – “I stand by my observations” … just make sure you get a hall pass …

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USinUK:

Don’t you have some “fog” to go walk in or something?

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kinda like the infamous “whitey” tape …

Hey, it’s out there. Drudge said so.

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Agreed Brakeman. None of the schools, govts business.

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stands for decibels

February 25th, 2010
8:41 am

You’re such a valued customer that I’ll begin posting links so you won’t be confused by “bits of factoids”, okay? Feel all better now?

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“Hopefully, their parents will wash their mouths out with soap ”

You’ve got to be joking. Who do you think they learned that attitude from?

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Brakeman
**To All Liberals**

Why are you addressing only liberuls?

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not jimmeh –

http://articles.latimes.com/2001/may/07/health/he-60336

The nurses reported that their working conditions have declined as hospitals try to hold down costs. And that was true whether for nurses working at U.S. hospitals, where private managed care companies have strongly influenced how services are delivered, or in Canada and Europe, which have nationalized health systems.

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Mick – “Why are you addressing only liberuls?” because he believes that conservatives should be nominated for sainthood.

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Willful deception? Do you mean like “under Obamacare you can keep your current health plan” or “You can keep your doctor”? Is that what you mean by willful deception? Or how about “I’m not a socialist”? All lies from the empty suit in the White House to fool the gullible.

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Jewcowboy,
Here are some more fun stats for you from the Joint Economic Committee of the US Congress:

In 2007 the top 1% of tax filers paid 40.42% of all federal income taxes. The top 5% paid 60.63%. The top 10% paid 71.22%. The top 25% paid 86.59%. The top 50% paid 97.11%.

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Jay,

Interesting that you would write an entire piece about how members of the media may try to lie or twist the truth to help their ideology.

Would you also consider it lying or twisting the truth to give quotes but leave out key essential parts of the quote to make a point for their side?

You know like YOU did a few days ago and were going to allow your readers to continue to read it as fact. You didn’t change it after the first person called you out on it. Only after the second did you offer a half hearted “my bad”.

But why should any be surprised you would use deceit as a method, as i recall this is not the first time you have used an inaccurate quote or quotes. But I guess it is different if the person lying does not share your ideology.

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Did I forget to mention that Obamacare will save us money and lower the deficit? Let’s look at the record so far: Stimulus bill created jobs at only $170,000 per job; cash for clunkers cost us only $28,000 per car, the winterization progam cost only $78,000 per house. And now he wants to do the same with healthcare? C’mon, liberals, this guy is a nightmare, but then that’s about what we non-believers expected from the start. Only the really dumb ones believed otherwise.

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“In 2007 the top 1% ”

Someday I’d like to see a breakdown of those percentages on a per dollar basis, instead of a per capita basis.

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USinUK

February 25th, 2010
8:51 am

You missed my point and were comparing apples to oranges. I merely asked which evil “for profit” hospitals were repeatedly negligent with the most basic of healthcare. Instead, you responded by linking an article that says for profit hospitals are delaying the purchase of new equipment.

The delay in purchasing new equipment versus hundreds of unnecessary deaths as a result of govt run healthcare.

And you had the gall to call me “naive” earlier?

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stands for decibels

February 25th, 2010
8:59 am

I think you “oldie but goodie” is actually a “cash for clunker”. I posted articles regarding hundreds of unnecessary deaths in UK hospitals supported by govt healthcare and you counter with “higher medicare rates at for profit hospitals”?

Are you truly that partisan? Really?

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Ah, yes “labels”.

That’s why we put “poison” on certain bottles, etc.

Liberalism (in its pure form) is poison for this country. Always has been, always will be.

As has been said before, a democracy is the only form of government that is automatically set up to “allow” for its own destruction. Liberalism (under the false impression/deception of doing good) is usually the catalyst in that formula.

Just one’s man’s opinion. Gotta run to N.C. to check on Mom. Have a nice weekend.

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Your jealousy and envy of Andrew Breitbart has no bounds Jay. I know it is hard watching someone who does what you do actually has a following and is successful at it, but come on, accusing him of lying? He is a journalist, surely they never lie to advance an agenda, right?? Chirp, Chirp, chirp…

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Sorry, but Beitbart is ‘more correct’ on this one. Sure, the nuclear option is different than reconciliation, however, in the manner being applied by this Congress, it’s trying to do the same thing.

Reconciliation is ONLY for budget items. That is the problem. They are trying to defy the spirit of the law and Constitution without actually breaking it. Sorry, we are right to be outraged.

As for 51 votes in Confirmation hearings… it is the “advise and consent” of the Senate… it DOES NOT MENTION 60 votes needed for Confirmations. Actually, the Constitution does not specifically even require a vote!!!!

So, while Breitbart may not be 100% correct in describing these, most of us who watch him KNOW THAT. Sorry, we’re not stupid. We know that and still accept the idea that it’s wrong and basically the same thing as the nuclear option.
DUH!

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