The party that refuses to listen to the generals’ advice
When Gen. David Petraeus spoke in Atlanta recently, he drew a strong turnout from Georgia Republicans. You also heard whisperings from some in the audience that someday, someday, Petraeus might be running for president under the GOP banner.
I very much doubt that would happen. Petraeus is certainly a political general; you don’t excel at a job like his without political skills. But I don’t see Petraeus running for elective office under either party’s banner.
That said, the general has also made clear his disagreement with much of what seems to motivate self-styled “national security conservatives,” who embrace policies based on their appeal to macho instincts rather than their wisdom. Petraeus struck a number of those notes in an appearance Sunday on Meet The Press:
On torture:
“I have always been on the record, in fact, since 2003, with the concept of living our values. And I think that whenever we have, perhaps, taken expedient measures, they have turned around and bitten us in the backside. We decided early on in the 101st Airborne Division we’re just going to–look, we just said we’d decide to obey the Geneva Convention, to, to move forward with that. That has, I think, stood elements in good stead. We have worked very hard over the years, indeed, to ensure that elements like the International Committee of the Red Cross and others who see the conduct of our detainee operations and so forth approve of them. Because in the cases where that is not true, we end up paying a price for it ultimately. Abu Ghraib and other situations like that are nonbiodegradables. They don’t go away. The enemy continues to beat you with them like a stick in the Central Command area of responsibility. Beyond that, frankly, we have found that the use of the interrogation methods in the Army Field Manual that was given, the force of law by Congress, that that works.”
On the closing of Guantanamo:
“I’ve been on the record on that for well over a year as well, saying that it should be closed. But it should be done in a responsible manner. So I’m not seized with the issue that it won’t be done by a certain date. In fact, I think it is–it’s very prudent to ensure that, as we move forward with that, wherever the remaining detainees are relocated and so forth, whatever jurisdiction is used in legal cases and so forth, is really thought through and done in a very pragmatic and sensible manner.”
On Don’t Ask Don’t Tell:
“You know, all we have are, are personal soundings to go on, and I’ve certainly done some of that myself. I mean, you’ve heard General Powell, who was the chairman when the policy was implemented, had a big hand in that, who said that, yes indeed, the earth has revolved around the sun a number of times since that period 15 months (sic: years) ago. And you’ve heard a variety of anecdotal input. We have experienced, certainly, in the CIA and the FBI, I know. I served in fact in combat with individuals who were gay and who were lesbian in combat situations and, frankly, you know, over time you said, “Hey, how’s, how’s this guy’s shooting?” Or “How is her analysis,” or what have you. So–but we’ll see. “
One prominent general who did leave military service and announce himself as a Republican was of course Colin Powell. In 2008, Powell broke with the party to endorse Barack Obama, a step that many conservatives still find unforgivable, as noted here, including interesting photo selection.
In an interview on “Face the Nation” Sunday, Powell also made clear his continuing disagreement with the macho wing of his party, which is led by former Vice President Dick “Five Deferments and Duck if He Grabs a Shotgun” Cheney:
On Guantanamo:
“I think Guantanamo has cost us a lot over the years in terms of our standing in the world and the way in which despots have hidden behind what we have at Guantanamo to justify their own positions… I think we ought to remove this incentive that exists in the presence of Guantanamo to encourage people and to give radicals an opportunity to say, ‘You see? This is what America is all about. They’re all about torture and detention centers.’”
Cheney’s claim we are “less safe”:
“Our counterterrorism authorities and forces are hard at work. Our law enforcement officials are hard at work. We have gone after the enemy in Afghanistan with 50,000 more troops, more Predators are striking al Qaeda and Taliban leaders in Pakistan. We have continued the policies that President Bush put in place with respect to Iraq. And so, I don’t know where the claim comes that we’re less safe.”
On torture:
“The point is made, ‘We don’t waterboard anymore or use extreme interrogation techniques.’ Most of those extreme interrogation techniques and waterboarding were done away with in the Bush administration. And they’ve been made officially done away with in this current administration.”
On trying terror suspects in civilian court:
“In eight years the military commissions have put three people on trial. Two of them served relatively short sentences and are free. One guy is in jail. Meanwhile, the federal courts,our Article III, regular legal court system, has put dozens of terrorists in jail and they’re fully capable of doing it. So the suggestion that somehow a military commission is the way to go isn’t born out by the history of the military commissions.”
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285 comments Add your comment
Jenifer
February 22nd, 2010
7:56 am
Petraeus and Powell – intelligence personified.
Jenifer
February 22nd, 2010
7:58 am
Of course the wingnuts will say Petraeus and Powell are ignorant.
USinUK
February 22nd, 2010
7:59 am
Jenifer – sorry, but Powell will be forever tainted by his pre-invasion testimony to the UN …
USinUK
February 22nd, 2010
8:02 am
oh, and a belated RIP Al Haig (his death got a lot of coverage here due to his shuttle diplomacy during the Falklands war)
Joel Edge
February 22nd, 2010
8:03 am
He sounds like a good liberal Dem to me. Except for those few good words for W. That would doom any Dem support. Where Storming Norman when you need him?
Peadawg
February 22nd, 2010
8:05 am
Jay, I think you may have a stalker. You may want to watch out cars outside your house/work place or something. I think Jenifer can see when you click “submit”!
Jenifer
February 22nd, 2010
8:07 am
USinUK,
Tainted, yes, but still an exceptionally intelligent person.
Jenifer
February 22nd, 2010
8:09 am
I can hardly wait for the Cheeeeeeney twins to start publicly attacking General Petraeus.
Mick
February 22nd, 2010
8:09 am
Once again people need to lose the labels. Patraeus was speaking from a common sense perspective. We are over extending our military and out of money. This mirrors the fall of all the great empires.
USinUK
February 22nd, 2010
8:12 am
Jenifer – thoughtful, yes … but an intelligent man would never:
1) THINK that the truck pictures were mobile labs (without additional evidence), or
2) ALLOW himself to be such a patsy as to present the “mobile lab” pictures without additional evidence.
either way, it taints either his intelligence or his integrity.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm!
February 22nd, 2010
8:12 am
Yeah, now if he could just get obozo on board with his ideas, just sayin….
In case you libs haven’t figured this out, they are your wars to lose, if you think DADT will make a difference on the ground in AfPak, then change it, why are you whining about the Repugs?
Grow up.
Jenifer
February 22nd, 2010
8:13 am
Peadawg,
I see all…you might want to close your blinds.
Jenifer
February 22nd, 2010
8:16 am
USinUK,
We each have our own opinion, not a thing wrong with that.
jt
February 22nd, 2010
8:16 am
As if it is only ONE party that doesn’t listen. Please.
Here in lies the dilemma- From FDL-
“This notion that you can have “small government” while maintaining a global empire and fighting a “Global War on Terror” is obviously nonsense, and even William F. Buckley recognized that. Here’s Buckley, arguing during the Cold War that conservatives had to embrace “Big Government” (from Julian Zelizer’s Arsenal of Democracy):
Buckley wrote that conservatives had to “accept Big Government for the duration–for neither an offensive nor a defensive war can be waged…except through the instrument of a totalitarian bureaucracy within our shores.” He explained that Republicans “will have to support large armies and air forces…central intelligence…and the attendant centralization of power in Washington–even with Truman at the reins of it all.“
Democrats too.
Give me liberty!
Green police are just as dangerous as PO’ed terrorists.
jt
February 22nd, 2010
8:17 am
We don’t need both.
Jenifer
February 22nd, 2010
8:19 am
I expect the anti-gay rhetoric to expand considerably as the GOP remains in the control of the Christian right. The self-righteous, holier than thou crowd will trot out the usual lies and distortions about gay people as if “bearing false witness” was not only a virtue but an art form.
Bob
February 22nd, 2010
8:22 am
So now the libs like Petraeus, the same ones that called him betrayus most likely.
Bob
February 22nd, 2010
8:23 am
Jenifer, who gave us DADT, Democrats or the christian coalition ?
jt
February 22nd, 2010
8:24 am
AND Gen. David Petraeus is smelling more and more like a politician. That always ends up bad.
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
February 22nd, 2010
8:26 am
Well, I’m like most Conservatives. I don’t care what the facts are and it don’t matter what these generals say. I know what I like and if I don’t hear it I don’t like it.
Have a good day everybody.
RW-(the original)
February 22nd, 2010
8:27 am
Do the people who continuously harp on the former VP having had five deferments even realize the current VP also had five deferments?
By the way, I read nearly this exact same article on a “right wing” blog last night. Oh well, off to the forest. Enjoy the day shift.
Jimmy Carter
February 22nd, 2010
8:28 am
“Obama tops Bush at ducking reporters; No formal press conference in 215 days… ”
So Barry actually DOES surpass W in some things.
Steven Daedalus
February 22nd, 2010
8:28 am
Jay I completely disagree with your charaterization of Five deferments and Duck etc. Cheney, you left the Treason section.
Jenifer
February 22nd, 2010
8:29 am
I wonder if the GOP will kick Powell out of their “big” tent after this.
Jenifer
February 22nd, 2010
8:33 am
The US was never less safe than on 9/11.
We now know the Shrub administration were fairly soiling themselves with fear. Shrub sat in brainlock for several minutes. The nation was in the hands of blithering incompetents.
Now imagine if the attackers had possessed nukes, or if a foreign army had been invading. What chance would we have had with republicants in power?
Road Scholar
February 22nd, 2010
8:36 am
USinUK and others: Good morning! Hope your weekend was as spectacular as ours in Atlanta!
I watched Powell present the whole case for the Iraq invasion to the UN. What struck me was that he did not appear to have his heart in it. Remember, he is a soldier and those feelings of duty aren’t surrendered. In the position he was in, it would have been “treason” to not put the administration’s policy forward. I’m not saying that he didn’t have input, but it appeared to me that his views were not included in the ultimate decision. Only he, and maybe some of his closest friends really know.
Doggone/GA
February 22nd, 2010
8:40 am
“the position he was in, it would have been “treason” to not put the administration’s policy forward.”
It absolutely would NOT have been treason. A soldier has a sworn duty to DISOBEY an illegal order. To NOT disobey is close to treasonous. Powell let his sense of “duty” to the CIC override and corrupt his true duty to protect the people of this country.
He could have, and he SHOULD HAVE refused to give that presentation.
USinUK
February 22nd, 2010
8:43 am
Road –
Saturday was gorge … Sunday, we had a very wet, muddy walk through the woods with the wondermutt – but she loved every minute of it (until it was bafftime)
“What struck me was that he did not appear to have his heart in it. Remember, he is a soldier and those feelings of duty aren’t surrendered. In the position he was in, it would have been “treason” to not put the administration’s policy forward.”
well, as Jenifer said, we can agree to disagree – I really don’t see not presenting sexed-up photos on par with betraying your country (in fact, NOT leading your country into a war built on false premeses shows a greater love of country and countrymen, in my book)
but, that and £1.75 will buy you a latte down at Cafe Nero …
Road Scholar
February 22nd, 2010
8:43 am
Jimmy Carter: Get real! I thought you conserves were tired of hearing him speak all the time. And what does numerous press conferences achieve? Hearing the same old, tired, and stupid questions from the US press corps! He has given numerous interviews and answered questions off the cuff; you would know this if you cared to listen instead of constantly berating him.
USinUK
February 22nd, 2010
8:45 am
Doggone and Road – and can we please dispense with the “order / not an order” language – he was acting as Sec of State, not a member of the military when he made that presentation.
Road Scholar
February 22nd, 2010
8:46 am
USin UK: What type of “Wondermutt” do you have? We have a Portugese water dog (well before Bo) and a cocker mix, both rescue dogs. Wouldn’t trade them for anything!
Jenifer
February 22nd, 2010
8:47 am
Did the Baptists ever get out of jail?
Road Scholar
February 22nd, 2010
8:48 am
USinUK: Understood, but 30 years as a war tested soldier is hard to overcome!
N-GA
February 22nd, 2010
8:49 am
My opinion of Powell changed after I watched his United Nations performance. Kinda like my opinion of John McCain changed after observing how he embraced Bush after they slandered him in South Carolina in 2000.
Nightmare on Cheney's Beat
February 22nd, 2010
8:49 am
Poor “Good Old Boy” Republicans. The armchair warriors. Ready at a moment’s notice to beat that remote into submission. They just can’t seem to come up with three legs to stand on now that their insurance no longer covers Viagra. The remote wins again.
USinUK
February 22nd, 2010
8:49 am
Road – we’ve been caring for my MIL’s dog for the last 3 months while she’s been poorly … (she’s home and recouping now – thank goodness)
the wondermutt is a border collie from the hips up and a corgi from the hips down – she’s a low-rider love-muffin rescue dog and I’m really not looking forward to the day when we give her back to mom.
Doggone/GA
February 22nd, 2010
8:51 am
“he was acting as Sec of State, not a member of the military when he made that presentation.”
Not quite. He was present in his capacity as Sec of State, the problem is he is also a “soldier” and he allowed his duty as a soldier to override his duty as citizen. That’s not an excuse, it’s an explanation.
It was a complaint made about him during the My Lai investigation also, that he was willing to “whitewash” events to favor the command structure above him.
George Bush
February 22nd, 2010
8:52 am
Jimmy Carter is my idol. He’s my hero.
USinUK
February 22nd, 2010
8:52 am
Road – “USinUK: Understood, but 30 years as a war tested soldier is hard to overcome”
having watched my brother-in-law’s brother rise through the ranks in the military over the last 20 years, my disagreement with you is that Powell wasn’t a grunt – he was a general. the grunts “follow orders” – the generals create strategy and GIVE orders.
Scooter
February 22nd, 2010
8:53 am
Powell was just going along with the Adm. he was working under to keep his job. Petraeus is doing the same thing.
Doggone/GA
February 22nd, 2010
8:54 am
N-GA…same here, on both.
jimmy62
February 22nd, 2010
8:54 am
Wasn’t the left calling this great servant of our country “Betrayus” as recently as a year ago? How quickly your opinion changes with the wind. But based on all the junk liberals heaped on this guy, he must not be worth listening to. After all, liberals are a great judge of character, right? That’s why they wear Che shirts and defend the North Vietnamese.
Jenifer
February 22nd, 2010
8:55 am
Someone must have lent MTP’s David Gregory a brain yesterday. He actually followed up on people who refused to answer questions, even asking pertinent questions of republicants. I hope whoever lent him some IQ points doesn’t need them back real soon, but I’m betting the same old mushy thought processes will be back next week.
USinUK
February 22nd, 2010
8:56 am
“defend the North Vietnamese”
dude. check your calendar.
Doggone/GA
February 22nd, 2010
9:01 am
“check your calendar”
They cling to the lies with all the despartion of a drowning man, don’t they?
USinUK
February 22nd, 2010
9:02 am
Doggone – “They cling to the lies with all the despartion of a drowning man, don’t they?”
yeah – and we spit on servicemen returning from the war …
Jenifer
February 22nd, 2010
9:03 am
I really, really wish Rachel Maddow would be given the MTP gig. The ratings go way up when she’s on the panel.
jimmy62
February 22nd, 2010
9:03 am
Dude, there’s this thing called history. Check it out sometime. I referred to it, suing examples of major character misjudgments by the left through history. Because any group that defended the North Vietnamese and wears Che shirts has seriously messed up views of good and bad.
david wayne osedach
February 22nd, 2010
9:04 am
Petraeus is a self-aggrandizing politico. Without the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan he would be nothing.
Manic
February 22nd, 2010
9:08 am
Um, scuze me but these really awesome generals work for the president. They just do what they are told and are not the ones paying the price with their own blood. Gee wiz, why didn’t General Dave speak up when he was working for W? Hmmmmmm.
No More Progressives.
February 22nd, 2010
9:10 am
Jenifer
February 22nd, 2010
8:09 am
I can hardly wait for the Cheeeeeeney twins to start publicly attacking General Petraeus.
And why would they do that?
kayaker 71
February 22nd, 2010
9:12 am
So now Petraeus is the good guy. He suffered much un deserved criticism for his stand on the surge who Bozo, Harry (the war is lost) Reid, Biden, Pelosi and most every other Democrat opposed. But it worked and it showed what happens when non experienced civilians like some community organizer try to run wars. Now Bookman calls him the hero and quits calling him Betrayus. That’s “stick your finger in the air logic”, Bookman.
Ragnar Danneskjöld
February 22nd, 2010
9:12 am
As the most conservative occasional on this blog, I agree in part with General Petraeus. While I endorse harsh questioning of those captured on battlefields, I also oppose torture. I oppose 20 year old soldiers toying childishly with prisoners, even if the detainees are evil.
General Petraeus errs on the Guantanamo, not because he does not read the politics correctly, but because he does not grasp the legal implications. GTMO is the best place to hold battlefield combatants deemed worthy of retention, due to the incompetence of our judicial system in administering war.
As to “don’t ask, don’t tell,” it is still a good policy, and I give full credit to the discredited former Secretary of State for its development. DADT compels our noble youth, while serving, to de-emphasize sexual matters in conduct of their duties; that is brilliant in its simplicity. And those who cannot do so need to be punted out of the service (for Abu Graib reasons.)
ty webb
February 22nd, 2010
9:12 am
Jay,
“which is led by former Vice President Dick “Five Deferments and Duck if He Grabs a Shotgun” Cheney:”
I guess from now on whenever you mention our current VP you will refer to him as Joe “Five Deferments and Countless Hair Plugs” Biden. Or maybe, Joe “Five Deferments and hide your pens because hear comes the Plagairist” Biden. We’d want to be consitent wouldn’t we? rah rah!
Jay
February 22nd, 2010
9:13 am
Actually Manic, on the question of torture and the impact of things such as Abu Graib and Gitmo, Petraeus was on the record long ago, well back into the Bush presidency.
No More Progressives.
February 22nd, 2010
9:13 am
jimmy62
“….That’s why they wear Che shirts and defend the North Vietnamese.”
Jane Fonda, anyone??
USinUK
February 22nd, 2010
9:13 am
“Dude, there’s this thing called history”
yep. history. as in 40 years ago. but you’re conflating it with criticism of Petreus’ testimony 6 years ago. 2 entirely different generations.
but, nice try.
Jay
February 22nd, 2010
9:15 am
Kayaker, I’d like you to document where I called Petraeus “Betrayus” or anything even slightly resembling that remark.
ty webb
February 22nd, 2010
9:16 am
sorry, meant “consistent”.
No More Progressives.
February 22nd, 2010
9:23 am
Jenifer
February 22nd, 2010
8:33 am
The US was never less safe than on 9/11.
We now know the Shrub administration were fairly soiling themselves with fear. Shrub sat in brainlock for several minutes. The nation was in the hands of blithering incompetents.
Now imagine if the attackers had possessed nukes, or if a foreign army had been invading. What chance would we have had with republicants in power?
A far, far better chance than with a bunch of community organizers or a polar bear advocate running the show.
Liberidiots are very adept at Monday Morning Quarterbacking. It’s their strength.
TnGelding
February 22nd, 2010
9:23 am
Traitors! Nobody messes with the USA, the greatest country in the history of the world. Torture ‘em! Hang ‘em! Nuke ‘em! We don”t need no stinking trials, anywhere.
Not only do we need to close the prison at Gitmo, we need to return the base to the Cubans. Surely we can find an adequate place in the Keys for one.
Cheney needs to ride off into the sunset before he’s indicted.
Scout
February 22nd, 2010
9:25 am
So what is your point? I don’t agree or disagree with everything these two say. The point is they ARE politicians ……… you don’t get four stars without being one.
Now that said, there are a hundred other generals that disagree with some of what they said …………….. and have different viewpoints. If you get down into the “real warrior” ranks you will really be surprised.
Here’s one fact ……….. good Marines will die today because of “politically correct policies” forced on their commanders in Afghanistan vs. sound military tactical assault procedures.
USinUK
February 22nd, 2010
9:27 am
“good Marines will die today because of “politically correct policies” forced on their commanders in Afghanistan vs. sound military tactical assault procedures”
gosh – not killing innocent civilians is now considered “politically correct”
sad, that.
TnGelding
February 22nd, 2010
9:27 am
Although coming back from the dead, the GOP is still stone-deaf. Let’s bury these malcontents forever.
Ragnar Danneskjöld
February 22nd, 2010
9:28 am
Dear TriGelding @ 9:23, as a fan of Cheney I would agree that he is at risk of indictment by the idiots of the present Justice Department. That does not mean he has ever done anything wrong, and I credit him with offering far more intelligent war-making strategy than any other of our generation. There is no question that the America-haters (both domestic and foreign) feared the former vice president, and we would agree that nobody feels that way about any in the current administration.
kayaker 71
February 22nd, 2010
9:29 am
Bookman,
You are guilty by association. Every major liberal in the country wanted a pound of his flesh and I did not see one time that you wrote something that supported his views. Petraeus was trying to do his job and liberals continually called him names, doubted his competency and gave him a pretty hard time, just because of their opposition to the war. Their present support is called fair weather politics. When you take a stand that opposes most of the things that are going on in Iraq. including it’s commander, then turn around months later and sing his praises, that’s called fair weather politics, something that liberals are pretty good at.
TnGelding
February 22nd, 2010
9:29 am
USinUK
February 22nd, 2010
9:27 am
And it’s also very smart. Unless you want to adopt the “we had to destroy it to save it mentality.”
Scooter
February 22nd, 2010
9:29 am
Scout
February 22nd, 2010
9:25 am
AMEN!
TnGelding
February 22nd, 2010
9:33 am
Ragnar Danneskjöld
February 22nd, 2010
9:28 am
Would you still be a fan if you thought he set up housekeeping and started a family so he could avoid service? He was rewarded with a lesbian daughter. He has no credibility on national defense. Even Bush stopped listening to him. He has admitted to crimes on national TV, for goodness sakes!
USinUK
February 22nd, 2010
9:34 am
TnG – nothing like wiping out 3 or 4 generations of a family to win hearts and minds.
oy.
RB from Gwinnett
February 22nd, 2010
9:35 am
I love how you mental midgets keep trying to blame Abu Graib and the torture of a few of the most dispicable human beings on earth for the people in the middle east hating us. You just keep ignoring the first trade center bombing, USS Cole, 2 embassy’s, barracks, ete, etc, etc. that all happened prior to those events and prior to Bush taking office. Yet somehow your organizer in chief was supposed to correct that by closing gitmo and talking to them???
You people are not only fools, you’re dangerous. Wake up.
Jenifer
February 22nd, 2010
9:38 am
I really noticed yesterday how unimpressive and uninspiring Tim Pawlenty is. Looks like MN would notice that.
Oh well, I guess they’re too busy drooling over the sexy Michele Bachmann.
Gale
February 22nd, 2010
9:38 am
Ragnar @ 9:12, re: DADT and de-emphacizing sexual matters.
Yet a blind eye is turned to hetro sexual abuse and hetro excess for young service men and women. Not to mention the support hetro service members and their families get from Ombudsmen and such groups. I think homosexual service members just want some evenness in policies while they are putting their lives on the line with their hetrosexual service members.
George Bush
February 22nd, 2010
9:42 am
Are you fellow Republicans and conservatives here defending Cheny or Powell or Petraeus or who. I seem to be misunderestimating you all’s ability to not say even as much as a politician doesn’t say in the midst of a campaign.
USinUK
February 22nd, 2010
9:43 am
RB – “I love how you mental midgets keep trying to blame Abu Graib and the torture of a few of the most dispicable human beings on earth for the people in the middle east hating us”
nice try, but please show evidence of which you speak. no one here has said AG is the sole reason they hate us.
Jay
February 22nd, 2010
9:43 am
Scout, you have no idea what you’re talking about.
None.
The changes in rules of engagement were driven by military leaders such as Petraeus and others. Five or six years ago, alarmed by the realization that we were losing in Iraq and Afghanistan, leaders of the Army and Marines launched a joint effort to change how we fought in such places.
Petraeus was given command of that effort, undertaken at Fort Leavenworth. Drawing on history, psychology and other disciplines, they rewrote U.S. military doctrine in how to fight such wars, including the primacy of protecting the local civilian population. Because of pieces I had written making similar points, I was invited to visit Fort Leavenworth during that time frame. I talked to dozens of military experts and interviewed Petraeus for about an hour about the effort in which they were writing what became our nation’s counterinsurgency doctrine.
The military then took that change of approach and sold it to the civilian leadership. That’s right — contrary to your uninformed assertions, the military conceived of this change and pushed it on the civilians in the Bush administration. By then, the Bush folks were ready to hear it, because they needed an alternative way to fight a war that they too understood we were losing.
That’s the reality. This is a military-driven approach that civilian leadership of both parties have accepted.
getalife
February 22nd, 2010
9:44 am
I had to attack the private on this issue last night .
The cons have chosen to support the cowered cheney over supporting the military.
The private went so far as calling the rules of engagement criminal.
cons never cease to amaze me.
Part time patriots.
Doggone/GA
February 22nd, 2010
9:44 am
“I love how you mental midgets keep trying to blame Abu Graib and the torture of a few of the most dispicable human beings on earth for the people in the middle east hating us”
Except that you are loving a lie. Neither of those is being blamed for causing those who hate us to do so. What they are being blamed for is helping to keep us from convincing those who DON’T hate us not to “swith sides.”
We are not universally hated in the Middle East, but some of the things that we have done are making it harder to KEEP it that way.
Joey
February 22nd, 2010
9:46 am
Conservatives, Republicans and Independents; I have some advice for you.
Be cautious of taking the advice given by those whom Jay Bookman recommends to you.
Drain The Swamp (NIF)
February 22nd, 2010
9:47 am
Jay
**who embrace policies based on their appeal to macho instincts rather than their wisdom.**
Yes and we all know how much respect Obama has achieved from Islam by being a girly-man who wants to talk and play nice.
Here’s a clue, Jay: Go to the worst parts of Atlanta and find the worst of the worst criminals and tell them that you want to talk to them about going straight and being good little boys. Go ahead, Jay, show us how being “macho” will never work. Go tell these guys that you want to be their friends and let them into your home.
Go ahead, Jay. We are only talking about common Atlanta Thugs. See how playing nice works with them.
Once you do that, you can pretend to be an expert on dealing with mass murdering religious nuts.
Sometimes I start to think that liberals might have a clue, and then I read your blog.
27
February 22nd, 2010
9:50 am
So Bookman is saying that Patraeus DIDN’T betray us?8)
Drain The Swamp (NIF)
February 22nd, 2010
9:52 am
getaclue
**I had to attack the private on this issue last night .**
Still calling others “private” to try and make yourself feel better about being such a loser.
How pathetic.
So is this still “Your Watch”, Webelo? Still have your patches and your merit badge sash? I’m giving you credit for achieving Webelo Scout. I’m sure that is the most you would ever accomplish.
Jay
February 22nd, 2010
9:54 am
“Obama as a girly man who wants to talk and play nice?”
So putting 50,000 more troops into Afghanistan and doubling the number of Predator strikes and killing the top Pakistani Taliban leader and then killing his replacement and then capturing the No. 2 Afghan Taliban leader is the act of a girly man who wants to talk and play nice, Swamp?
When you return to reality, drop me a line.
Drain The Swamp (NIF)
February 22nd, 2010
9:55 am
RB
Yep. Everyone loved us until Bush was elected.
And now Obama is making that all better by killing people in their sleep with robot driven airplanes.
I’m sure they will all love us now.
N-GA
February 22nd, 2010
9:55 am
Drain the Swamp (your 9:47) – Now you want to compare common criminals with religious zealots? The last time that was done they crucified the criminals right next to Jesus, right?
If you are utterly incapable of making a reasonable comparison, you should start blogging over on the Disney site.
getalife
February 22nd, 2010
9:56 am
private,
Meds.
Take em.
Try supporting the troops for a change.
USinUK
February 22nd, 2010
9:56 am
“When you return to reality, drop me a line”
I wouldn’t hang out by your e-mail, Jay … you could be in for a long wait …
Bosch
February 22nd, 2010
9:57 am
USinUK,
“Jenifer – sorry, but Powell will be forever tainted by his pre-invasion testimony to the UN …”
Sorry dear, I have to disagree with that. I think he has MORE than made up for that. For one, resigning after Bush’s first term (dont’ know if Bush planned to carry him on). I feel Powell is the kind of man who looks at himself in the mirror every day and feels bad for what he did, and from many interviews I’ve heard from his staff and Powell himself (although he’s WAY too classy to say something like this) – they were duped just like everyone else.
Bosch
February 22nd, 2010
9:59 am
USinUK,
Another thing on Powell, he’s been a soldier for a long time, and a soldier does what his CiC tells him to do.
Powell was then and will always be super OK with me. And Petraeus. He’s cool too.
Drain The Swamp (NIF)
February 22nd, 2010
10:00 am
Jay
Make up your mind.
Is he trying to play nice and win hearts and minds or is he killing civilians in their sleep with robotic driven airplanes?
Your choice Jay: Your blog, your choice. You can say he is playing nice or playing the part of an exterminator who just happens to kill a few hundred civilians.
Personally I love to watch you guys twist in the wind. Republicans are being Macho for supporting our military but Obama is killing Arabs like rats along the creek.
Sounds like Democrats are trying to be Macho to me.
So….. I’ll be awaiting your apology to the Republicans for your claim that they try to act macho when apparently, it’s you that want to shake the sabers.
Scout
February 22nd, 2010
10:00 am
Jay/USinUK/et al:
I repeat: “Good Marines will die unnecessarily today because of politically incorrect restrictions:
Sure, the generals and politicians have their meetings (just like McNamara and Johnson used to pick individual targets in North Vietnam) but it’s the grunts on the ground
AND the civilians who suffer. Try to understand this simple example ………….
A platoon of Marines are trying to assault a compound to kill/capture terrorists. The terrorists are of course (cowards that they are) using the civilians as hostages. The Marines are refused air support or even artillery to accomplish their mission. As a result, more Marines than need to be are killed, a few civilians are killed in the huge firefight anyway but more importantly less terrorists are killed and many are able to escape.
Those terrorists who escape live to fight on another day, take more civilian hostages, etc., etc. In the long run ……….. more civilians wind up hurt/dead cummulatively than need be – not to mention our troops. If you were one of the mothers, fathers, or wives receiving that military visit regarding your son killed in action you might feel differently about the tactical decision that caused their death …………….
Jay, you need to quit interviewing generals and go “imbed” with the Captains, Lieutenants and sergeants on the front line …………….
But alas, “Dulce Bellum Inexpertis” (war is sweet to the inexperienced).
Now, if you warriors will excuse me, I have work to do before you make me hurl my breakfast. Back later ……………………
USinUK
February 22nd, 2010
10:02 am
Bosch –
“For one, resigning after Bush’s first term ”
I file that under: Too Little. Too Late.
I agree with you that he probably does look at himself in the mirror and cringe about what he did, and try to compensate for it … but when you look at the enormity of fallout from his testimony, his resignation really wasn’t enough. a good first step, yes … but nowhere near enough.
Jay
February 22nd, 2010
10:03 am
As Petraeus says, Swamp, you reconcile those you can reconcile, and you kill those who can’t be reconciled.
Sorry if that’s a bit complicated.
Drain The Swamp (NIF)
February 22nd, 2010
10:04 am
getaclue
Who are you calling private, Webelo?
And just because you need a handful of pills every morning to face the world, don’t begin to think that the more stable among us are that weak. I don’t take and aspirin, but of course, you weren’t talking to me. I outrank you in every respect, Webelo.
Doggone/GA
February 22nd, 2010
10:04 am
“they were duped just like everyone else.”
http://motherjones.com/mojo/2008/02/un-deception-what-exactly-colin-powell-knew-five-years-ago-and-what-he-told-world
Drain The Swamp (NIF)
February 22nd, 2010
10:05 am
Jay
**you reconcile those you can reconcile, and you kill those who can’t be reconciled.**
Didn’t John Wayne say that in a movie?
Sounds pretty macho to me. Democrats are BAD. Uhuh. Alright . They got it going on. Let’s kill everybody.
getalife
February 22nd, 2010
10:05 am
Scout,
In the Fog of War they played tape conversations between McNamera and Johnson They did not care what Congress said.
Have you watched this excellent documentary?
Jay
February 22nd, 2010
10:06 am
And Scout, the people who are actually fighting this war on our behalf rather than reminiscing about their own wars 40 years ago say that you are absolutely wrong.
By the way, how did that other war end up again?
Drain The Swamp (NIF)
February 22nd, 2010
10:07 am
getaclue
Have fun with your gossip. Hold down the fort, Webelo. Us men need to get to work.
getalife
February 22nd, 2010
10:08 am
USinUK.,
Many dems were punked by curveball too.
Is the inquiry there over?