American people torn about policy in Afghanistan

I guess you’d have to say that the American people are torn about this issue:

From CNN:

Fifty-nine percent of those questioned in a CNN/Opinion Research Corp. survey released Wednesday morning said they favor the president’s plan to send 30,000 more U.S. troops to Afghanistan, with 39 percent opposed.

And yet:

The survey indicates that a majority of the public opposes the war, with 55 percent of respondents opposed and 43 percent in support of the U.S. mission in Afghanistan.

Clearly, that makes no sense. Except that in a strange way, it does. The American people want to support their troops overseas and understand that withdrawal could have immense consequences. But with so little to show in Afghanistan after eight years, they don’t like it much and don’t have much confidence in the eventual outcome.

352 comments Add your comment

Jenifer

December 23rd, 2009
12:38 pm

Between a rock and a hard place…

Kamchak

December 23rd, 2009
12:40 pm

Support the troops, not the war. The shame of the mistreatment of those coming back from Vietnam illustrated the error of some. I would like to hear from Normal and others about their personal experience with this mistreatment.

Southern Comfort

December 23rd, 2009
12:42 pm

Jay,

They didn’t ask me!!!

My opinion is oposite of what the poll indicates on both questions. Too many soldiers already on the ground, but it’s the war we need to take care of.

RW-(the original)

December 23rd, 2009
12:42 pm

Another way to reconcile those results would be that if people view the troop surge as a way to get out more quickly. Sadly they’ve been sold a bill of goods by the Obama administration that likes to point to the Iraq surge success, but the fact that Afghanistan has nowhere near the infrastructure that Iraq had and that Obama has already telegraphed his retreat this is just sending 30,000 more targets into harm’s way for political reasons.

Mike

December 23rd, 2009
12:45 pm

My question to those of you who support this war (and who supported the war in Iraq): Why aren’t you over there? Either as a soldier or working for a military contractor, you should be there doing the duty you claim to support. Go. Be there. It’s your war. Get off the computer, enlist, or get a job with Blackwater, Halliburton or whoever it is making a million bucks a day.

Or are you afraid?

Southern Comfort

December 23rd, 2009
12:50 pm

Mike

I tried to enlist, but the Army found out about my bum knee and rejected me. The irony is, that had I waited 2yrs or so, I could have received a waiver. I now serve on the homefront 5 days a week for sometimes up to 14-15 hours a day.

FinnMcCool

December 23rd, 2009
12:51 pm

Ahh, just pay the enemy in cash. They’ll stop shooting at us.

Good movie alert: “It Might Get Loud” is very good. I thought alcohol and drugs had ravaged Jimmy Page but I was misinformed: no signs at all! Funny to see the look on the Jack White’s and the Edge’s faces when Page breaks into one particular Zeppelin tune (no, not Stairway to Heaven.)

Be sure to watch the deleted scenes and film festival interview in the bonus material. One deleted scene explains how the Kashmir groove came about and one explains how Jack White came up with the tune used int he James Bond flick.

Southern Comfort

December 23rd, 2009
12:52 pm

*disclaimer

I think Afghanistan was the right place to send the gift of munitions and such. Iraq should have never happened. If AQ wants to do battle with the U.S., then I say we take the gloves off and use some of the guided munitions that were developed using taxpayer funds over the past 20 or so years.

FinnMcCool

December 23rd, 2009
12:55 pm

mike,
I used to work with 2 fellas who had children in college in 2004. They both voted for Bush twice but the thought that maybe their kids should be serving never crossed their minds. I suppose that was for “other people’s” kids. Used to stay pissed off at those guys.

Kamchak

December 23rd, 2009
12:58 pm

Superpowers continue to send Afghanistan back to the Stone Age, yet none has conquered them. Until this cycle is broken, tribalism is alive and well.

eagle scout

December 23rd, 2009
1:05 pm

Kamchak .. I served in Vietnam from 1965-1966 and can honestly say upon my return to the U.S. I never experienced any mistreatment. Of course the war at that time was in its infant state. However, I wore the uniform as a member of the Guard in the 70’s, and don’t remember any abusive words directed at me.

"refero quatturo"

December 23rd, 2009
1:06 pm

Kamchack, et al:

You may have seen these before and as long as I am alive you will see them again. They are both my favorite quotes on Vietnam from “Once a Warrior King” by David Donovan. The first quote is strictly Vietnam but the second could equally apply to the current situation :

Once a Warrior King by David Donovan:

“If there was immorality in the war in Vietnam, it was that a democratic nation called her citizens to war, had them killed by the tens of thousands, and then, like a faithless lover, turned and scorned the survivors. Oh, perfidious nation!”

“I have the sense from time to time that I am not alone, and I suspect that despite the limited understanding we have of events in distant places, there will always be those among us who have the gleam of the quest in their eyes. They are people of every sex and station and they yearn to be challenged to a cause. They will always be looking for that wrong to right, that ill to cure, that song to sing; and there will always be those who will go to arms in aid of the helpless and the downtrodden. Ignoring the political issues of the moment, these people will champion the weak and the poor in the face of evil and tyranny. And no matter what the outcome, in their romantic hearts they will always keep the secret, if secret it must be, that they are better men for having held the lamp beside the golden door”.

Scout
India Company
3rd Battalion, 4th Marines
Vietnam 1967-68

Jake

December 23rd, 2009
1:09 pm

Well I didn’t get any care packages, except from my parents, and I didn’t get any Xmas or thank you cards/letters from those 2nd graders, but I can’t say I was actually mistreated, maybe disrespected was more like it. But the war was very unpopular by the early 70’s and that sentiment carried over to the military. Yesterday someone posted about being drafted not counting as fighting for your country. I believe that individual wasn’t alive during Nam, and most definitely never served in the military at all, let alone a combat zone. No one fights for their country. No one. You may enlist thinking you’re serving your country but in the end, when the shite hits the fan, when you’re surrounded and constantly under attack for 23 days on a hilltop in the A Schau like I was, you fight to stay alive and you fight for the man next to you to help him stay alive. And if you don’t understand that you ought to keep your mouth shut.

getalife

December 23rd, 2009
1:13 pm

The exit strategy is the same nation building mission as Iraq.

After we train them, we leave.

Jake

December 23rd, 2009
1:16 pm

The lib, anti-war Obama supporters are so confused by his failure to keep his campaign promises that they are in denial. So they say they are against the war but in favor of anything O does, including sending in 50,000 more troops.

wyldbyllhyltnyr

December 23rd, 2009
1:19 pm

There was no crisis in confidence when two men of undeniably strong character and high intellect, President Bush and Vice President Cheney, were calling the shots and we were able to proudly display the “Mission Accomplished” banner. Americans understood Afghanistan was a difficult, but necessary slog that struck at the heart of terrorism.

The crisis in confidence has come about because of our weak-horse President Obama. First he thought it was a good war before he thought it wasn’t. First he he going to let the generals run the war before he thought they shouldn’t. First he was going to stand strong against terrorists before he didn’t. First he was going to stand strong for American interests, before he didn’t.

No wonder Americans are conflict with Obama in the White House with Slow Joe Biden, who has never been right on any foreign policy decision, standing by his side smiling like a retard looking at an ice cream truck.

Palin/Liz Cheney 2012 – America and The World’s Last Best Hope

Common Sense

December 23rd, 2009
1:21 pm

To getalife:

Remember when you were a kid and you tride to dig a hole on the beach when the tide kept coming in? After you left, what happened?

Akmed

December 23rd, 2009
1:21 pm

I’m 100% behind Obozo’s strategy!

We take thee vacation in the Pakistani, and when all the Americans have cut and run, it’s jihad time!

You da man Obozo!

Allah Akbar!

Yes we can!

mmm, mmmm, mmmmm!

josef nix

December 23rd, 2009
1:22 pm

However vulgar it may be, there’s a great deal of wisdom applicable here in the adage “either **** or get off the pot.”

I still maintain we’re being sold a bill of goods by warmongers, call it the “wrong” reasons, Iraq, or the “right” reasons, Afghanistan the military cannot do the job detailed them if they are hamstrung by a pack of poll-watching politicians…

wyldbyllhyltnyr

December 23rd, 2009
1:22 pm

Jake
1:09 pm

Jake, powerful, very powerful man, and well said. I served, but don’t throw it around casually like some of these morons, because I know it is heavy like the way you describe it. G-d bless you, man.

josef nix

December 23rd, 2009
1:25 pm

Jake
There’s a great deal of truth in your 1:16.

Kamchak

December 23rd, 2009
1:26 pm

They will always be looking for that wrong to right, that ill to cure, that song to sing; and there will always be those who will go to arms in aid of the helpless and the downtrodden. Ignoring the political issues of the moment, these people will champion the weak and the poor in the face of evil and tyranny. And no matter what the outcome, in their romantic hearts they will always keep the secret, if secret it must be, that they are better men for having held the lamp beside the golden door.

Sorry le petit caporal–I ain’t buying that.

Ignoring the political issues of the moment… Puh-leeze. our involvement in Vietnam was about the “domino effect” political agenda to combat communism. Then, as now, ideology/theology is used to demonize an enemy.

Jake

December 23rd, 2009
1:29 pm

w;ydbyll – Welcome home brother!

md

December 23rd, 2009
1:31 pm

The military would be a better outfit if they could decommission the PC Brigade. This brigade is the one fighting its own troops.

josef nix

December 23rd, 2009
1:34 pm

K’chak
Vietnam was us again coming in to try to clean up a mess made by the French…War of 1812, WW I, WW II…

Jimmy62

December 23rd, 2009
1:35 pm

All those people who say anyone who favored war should be over there serving probably believe in huge entitlements which amount to socialism. If I have to serve in the military to be in favor of a war, then if you favor vast entitlements based on money stolen from those who earned it to be given to those who didn’t, then MOVE TO CUBA. Because we don’t want that nonsense here in America.

Curious Observer

December 23rd, 2009
1:36 pm

You may enlist thinking you’re serving your country but in the end, when the shite hits the fan, when you’re surrounded and constantly under attack for 23 days on a hilltop in the A Schau like I was, you fight to stay alive and you fight for the man next to you to help him stay alive. And if you don’t understand that you ought to keep your mouth shut.

Amen! No one I knew in the Marine Corps ever walked around talking about serving his country or being patriotic. In fact, there was always an irreverance about the service. There was even a certain disdain for the civilians for whom you were supposed to be fighting.

This kind of attitude has apparently extended well beyond Vietnam and the current wars. A decade or more ago the History Channel carried a series consisting of interviews of Medal of Honor winners (and no, it is not the Congressional Medal of Honor.) Every one of the interviewees had two things in common: (1) a stated belief that the medal was undeserved or that somebody else deserved it more, and (2) a rationale for the acts being honored as an effort to save friends or combat team members, with never a word spoken about patriotism or service to the country.

Those who talk about the patriotism or “service to the country” of military personnel have obviously never been closer than the family feud to anything close to combat.

N-GA

December 23rd, 2009
1:41 pm

Jay…It really is a very interesting conundrum, but it deserves more discussion. Americans whole-heartedly supported attacking Afghanistan in pursuit of Bin Laden/Al Qaida. At least we had a clear objective and, possibly, a way to know when the war was won. Once the Bush administration took their eye off the ball and focused instead on Iraq, then support for our efforts in Afghanistan began to wane.

American support for invading Iraq was “relatively” strong, given that we were misled about the reasons for the invasion. Support evaporated when no WMD’s were found. Now THAT was a betrayal of our military….sending them into a fight with no honest justification.

As a veteran (1969-75), I find that I detest false patriotism in the guise of supporting our military, whatever the mission. I believe we support our soldiers better when we hold our politicians accountable for their rash actions.

Back to the Afghanistan mess…..President Obama is absolutely correct to establish measureable objectives in that country. We (America) should not have an open-ended commitment to keeping our troops there. While “victory” may not be easy to define, “success” is. And if the Afghans are unable and/or unwilling to sustain their own freedom, we are not responsible for “imposing” freedom upon them.

Scout

December 23rd, 2009
1:42 pm

Curious Observer:

“A Schau” ……….. you didn’t spell it correctly. Are you sure you were there? Just asking ……. that’s usually the first clue (i.e., SOG = Special Operations Group vs. Studies and Observations Group – which doesn’t sound quite so heroic).

Scout
India, 3/4

Dearest Kamchak:

I’m sorry I even replied to you. Forgive me.

N-GA

December 23rd, 2009
1:44 pm

One more observation, Jay…..I really, really wonder what percentage of those not supporting President Obama’s decision are the same people who would oppose anything he does, save resigning.

Kamchak

December 23rd, 2009
1:44 pm

josef

Maybe to a much lesser extent, but going to school in the 60’s the “domino effect” was a constant in every grade.

md

December 23rd, 2009
1:45 pm

“At least we had a clear objective and, possibly, a way to know when the war was won.”

Care to share that clear objective. Since the Taliban is no longer in power and the intelligence community believes Bin laden is no longer there, what is left from our intial objective?

Curious Observer

December 23rd, 2009
1:47 pm

I didn’t do the spelling, Scout. I was merely quoting a previous poster at the beginning of my own post. Look at the italics: that’s your first clue.

wyldbyllhyltnyr

December 23rd, 2009
1:47 pm

Scout
1:42 pm

You have no honour to question Curious Observer and, by extension, Jake. Read that which he wrote and the tone with which he wrote, he was there and it remains with him through today.

You on the other hand, probably have seen nothing that resembles the struggles amongst those of your kind to be the next to put his mouth up to the glory hole. Don’t you ever speak down to Jake or anyone who served.

getalife

December 23rd, 2009
1:49 pm

CS,

Your hero w implemented this plan in Iraq and Obama is doing it in Afghanistan.

It is okay to support it con.

And the beach thing is just plain silly.

Kamchak

December 23rd, 2009
1:50 pm

Scout

December 23rd, 2009
1:42 pm

Dearest Kamchak:

I’m sorry I even replied to you. Forgive me.

I was replying to “refero quatturo”.

It would help if you remember your sock puppets

Jenifer

December 23rd, 2009
1:56 pm

“One more observation, Jay…..I really, really wonder what percentage of those not supporting President Obama’s decision are the same people who would oppose anything he does, save resigning.”

Very high.

Scout

December 23rd, 2009
1:58 pm

To Curious Observer:

Just double checking. As you know, there are a lot of fakes out there. Semper Fi.
http://www.reportstolenvalor.org/

To wyldbyllhyltnyr:

You now have the privilege of getting the same quote I gave a couple of guys yesterday that I heard so often from my favorit D.I. :

“You wouldn’t make a decent pimple on a Marine’s a**!”

……….. and now I’m out for awhile. The Gunny (Mrs.) has ordered me to go shopping with her. Back later ……………..

getalife

December 23rd, 2009
2:00 pm

Yeah Jay,

How many con sock puppets are on your blog?

“refero quatturo”

December 23rd, 2009
2:00 pm

Kamchak:

“If the shoe fits ……………. “

con

December 23rd, 2009
2:03 pm

See how easy it is to be a sock puppet?

Common Sense

December 23rd, 2009
2:03 pm

To getalife:

Call it silly if you like but this is a religious war. The day we leave Afghanistan is the day it reverts back to what it was.

Don’t forget the phrase from the new Iraqi Constitution either ………….. “nothing in this Constitution shall violate the tenets of Islam.”

Have a Merry Christmas and a safe Holiday period !

N-GA

December 23rd, 2009
2:04 pm

MD…it would appear you’ve answered your own question about the original objective. So if you want to say something, exploit your own thoughts.

getalife

December 23rd, 2009
2:05 pm

Yeah CS.

Since their country is based on Islam, did we lose your religious war?

md

December 23rd, 2009
2:07 pm

“One more observation, Jay…..I really, really wonder what percentage of those not supporting President Obama’s decision are the same people who would oppose anything he does, save resigning.”

Very high.”

Considering that the folks on the right are the ones that tended to support the effort in Afghanistan and the ones on the left the ones that did not support it, I’d say the percentage is actually just the opposite, quite low. I believe the pollls show those on the left, the ones that voted for Barry, are the ones that are still opposed with a percentage of those on the right now also opposed.

getalife

December 23rd, 2009
2:07 pm

If the goal in Iraq was to free the oil for globalization commerce.

Mission Accomplished.

Jenifer

December 23rd, 2009
2:10 pm

“Considering that the folks on the right are the ones that tended to support the effort in Afghanistan and the ones on the left the ones that did not support it, I’d say the percentage is actually just the opposite, quite low.”

Uh, no.

Common Sense

December 23rd, 2009
2:12 pm

getalife:

politically/religiously ……… yes (it will eventually revert back to what it was)
militarily …………………….. no (we kicked their a**)

md

December 23rd, 2009
2:13 pm

“Uh, no.”

Care to post some polls that support that uh no.

Outhouse Go-Kart

December 23rd, 2009
2:14 pm

FinnMcCool

December 23rd, 2009
12:51 pm

U2, Boner, The Edge…all flash no substance.

Jenifer

December 23rd, 2009
2:16 pm

“Care to post some polls that support that uh no.”

I don’t put much faith in polls. Do you?

Call it like it is.

December 23rd, 2009
2:17 pm

Afghanistan is a hugh cluster f. Always has been and always will be. Do Americans support the troops? of course. The main problem with Afghanistan is that we can’t see the success over there. We have soliders dieing, but for what. Even in the AJC, anything to do with the war is now on the 3rd of 4th page at the bottom. You blow up one cave, you have another 1000 to deal with. You kill one leader, you have two more to take his place. This county has been in chaos from day one, and I hate to break it to you, but it will be after we are long gone.

Bring them home, nuke the place and turn it into a glass factory and be done with it. Enough blood, time and money has been spent on that worthless chunk of land.

BMDPD

December 23rd, 2009
2:19 pm

CS, there is so much truth in your Holy War statement. It is a Holy War.

Outhouse Go-Kart

December 23rd, 2009
2:19 pm

Regardless, Obobo is a loser.

The afghanis have had plenty of time and leadership to get their Country in order. We should, however, leave the troops there in anticipation of an Iranian invasion.

md

December 23rd, 2009
2:20 pm

“I don’t put much faith in polls. Do you?”

So what are you basing the assertain that more on the right oppose?

Outhouse Go-Kart

December 23rd, 2009
2:22 pm

Perhaps sending them a bakers dozen of bunker busters for Xmas!!?

Lets demolish some mosques!!!

Outhouse Go-Kart

December 23rd, 2009
2:26 pm

Or perhaps loose a few rockets on India and make like they are from Pakistan. On the side or said rockets we could paint all kinda islamic BS and things like “from pakistan with love”. India would then of course counter-attacks on the “paki’s” and we could sit back for a good laugh!!!

N-GA

December 23rd, 2009
2:26 pm

Actually, MD, support for going into Afghanistan was bi-partisan. Right after 9/11 Americans were united in their desire to go after those responsible, so don’t try to re-write history. The facts remains that Bush took his eye off Afghanistan to engage Iraq/Saddam in a personal war. The testimony in the UK is very specific about how the Bush administration was intent on going after Saddam. After all, PNAC insisted on it!

Once it was determined that there were no WMD’s, then the “right” fell back on excuses and rationalizations: “Saddam needed to go, anyway because he was evil!” or “We are bringing Democracy to the Middle East!”. The “left” saw through those lies and propaganda and realized people were dying because of the neoCons, and America is footing the $$$$! Meanwhile, Cheney’s corporate friends are laughing all the way to the bank!! It’s all Blood Money.

T

December 23rd, 2009
2:27 pm

Who knows what the current troop surge will bring. I hope it will do some good. Now, will it be an imagined “victory” like the one in Iraq? I really don’t know the complete mission or if it is one that can be obtained.

Let those that battle daily behind an armor of laptop and PC, do so. It is their American born right. Perhaps, the sacrifices of those who choose to fight for them will aide their hearts in contributing to their own communities. That should be a question everyone asks themselves. “what have I done for someone else today?”

Tomorrow I will be in Afghanistan.

getalife

December 23rd, 2009
2:31 pm

Senate voting on Ensign’s constitutional challenge:

Failed along party lines.

BMDPD

December 23rd, 2009
2:32 pm

N-GA, I love the blood money argument. You crack me up. The Democratic Party would never do anything immoral or wrong in order to profit. It is what politicians do, but I don’t believe for a second that anyone in their right mind would send American Soldiers to die for a profit.

Normal

December 23rd, 2009
2:33 pm

Howdy folks, can’t stay long. Just wanted to say to Jay and his Day Shift that I wish for them a very Happy “Whatever It Is you Celebrate This Time Of Year”. :D May all of you have a wonderful holiday time and an even better 2110.

Kam, My experiences were no more or less than others and not so bad as a few. Got called “baby killer”, and in L.A.X., got spit on, but the worst for me was having to deny my service in order to get a decent job.

But heck, as a longhair antiwar protester, I got called “Hippycommiepinkoqueerjewbastard” all in one breath and spit on too.

The point is not to let that crap happen again. Vilify the leaders for screwing it all up, but praise the warriors who are risking it all trying to make it right.

I’ll try to check in for the night shift later.

WTF

December 23rd, 2009
2:34 pm

wyldbyllhyltnyr, if the MIssion was Accomplished, why have over 3,000 American patriots died in Iraq since that obscene declaration and why six plus years later are we still there? Because the idiot Bush and his henchman Chaney sold Americans a pack of lies and went in with no plan on how to exit. As for winning, it can’t be done – we aren’t fighting a nation that can surrender, we’re trying to take over a society and remake them in our image (which most of the world doesn’t care for very much thanks to the eight years of your boys telling the rest of the world to F*** Off).

If you served the country, God bless you, but don’t hate those who think for themselves rather than being lemmings following the talk radio gasbags off the cliff.

Normal

December 23rd, 2009
2:35 pm

Howdy folks, can’t stay long. Just wanted to say to Jay and his Day Shift that I wish for them a very Happy “Whatever It Is you Celebrate This Time Of Year”. May all of you have a wonderful holiday time and an even better 2110.

Kam, My experiences were no more or less than others and not so bad as a few. Got called “baby killer”, and in L.A.X., got spit on, but the worst for me was having to deny my service in order to get a decent job.

But heck, as a longhair antiwar protester, I got called a lot of names too, and spit on.

The point is not to let that crap happen again. Vilify the leaders for screwing it all up, but praise the warriors who are risking it all trying to make it right.

I’ll try to check in for the night shift later.

Outhouse Go-Kart

December 23rd, 2009
2:38 pm

“No blood for oil”, “Blood money” and all that crap. All you whiners who keep screaming such non-sense should, in protest, hang up your car keys and take public transportation. Also any goods delivered via train, truck, plane should not be purchased by you “holier than thou” types.

Dont you whiners and bedwetters agree?

Where is you fatcats true protest spirit?

Ahhh…I thought so.

md

December 23rd, 2009
2:40 pm

“Actually, MD, support for going into Afghanistan was bi-partisan. Right after 9/11 Americans were united in their desire to go after those responsible, so don’t try to re-write history.”

History will also show that those on the left were the first to oppose, and many not because of the mission, but because of who was the President. That goes for both “sides” if one is a side choser. The fact remains that some of those originally opposed from the left are now whole heartedly on the bandwagon, and not because of the mission but because of who is the President.

As for me, I choose neither side as they are equally corrupt, and I believe Afghanistan should be the one sending in more troops instead of the US, after all, it is their country they are supposedly fighting for. If that war was over here, how many think there would be no draft. Same should apply over there.

Outhouse Go-Kart

December 23rd, 2009
2:40 pm

WTF

December 23rd, 2009
2:34 pm

All smoke and mirrors!!

Just more defication falling out of your mouth.

BMDPD

December 23rd, 2009
2:41 pm

“As for me, I choose neither side as they are equally corrupt” a big AMEN brother!

md

December 23rd, 2009
2:42 pm

“It is what politicians do, but I don’t believe for a second that anyone in their right mind would send American Soldiers to die for a profit.”

And there in lies the problem, for there are very few “politicians” that are in their right mind.

Jimmy62

December 23rd, 2009
2:43 pm

I wonder how all the lefties on here feel about Obama’s latest act, signing away our sovereignty. In case you don’t know, and you probably don’t because the media is ignoring it for the most part, Obama signed an executive order giving Interpol FULL immunity from American laws while operating on our soil. In other words, they can do whatever they want, and even the FBI can’t stop them. And they are exempt from FOIA, too.

This is scary stuff, and a step towards putting us under the rule of a world government. Why is Obama allowing foreigners to come in to our country and break out law at will, with no recourse for local authorities?

I don’t like to throw around words like traitor, but isn’t this an act of treason by definition?

Jimmy62

December 23rd, 2009
2:43 pm

getalife

December 23rd, 2009
2:44 pm

“I don’t believe for a second that anyone in their right mind would send American Soldiers to die for a profit.”

Not sure if this is ignorant, snark or naive.

If you don’t trust

Rightwing Troll

December 23rd, 2009
2:45 pm

Happy Festivus all!!!

Who wants to meet out back for the “feat of strength”?

getalife

December 23rd, 2009
2:46 pm

Ooops. If you don’t trust them on health care, you should keep that position especially in war.

BMDPD

December 23rd, 2009
2:47 pm

md, There are several ways to look at the Blood Money or blood for oil argument. First, what is so bad about Blood for oil? Those in the military fight to sustain the American way of life. If we don’t have oil, then our way of life and quality of life. Those in the military fight so people can sit here and argue. I love how the sides point at each other. Sure Cheney’s buddies made money off the war, but Obama’s buddies (Goldman Sachs) are going to make a lot if this Cap and Trade goes through.

getalife

December 23rd, 2009
2:48 pm

Jimmy62 ,

They are coming for the war criminals.

Torture is illegal silly.

BMDPD

December 23rd, 2009
2:49 pm

It should say if we don’t have oil…we lose our quality of life.

md

December 23rd, 2009
2:50 pm

The “war for oil” is a bunch of hogwash. No way we send in 130k troops for oil and then let Iraq award the oil contracts to every other country including the ones that opposed the war. Some need to find an excuse that at least makes sense.

getalife

December 23rd, 2009
2:54 pm

“Until we’ve closed Guantánamo, gotten out of Iraq responsibly, renounced torture and rendition, shown a different face for America, American membership of the ICC is going to make countries around the world think the ICC is a tool of American hegemony.”

Cleaning up so they can prosecute the war criminals. I bet we will not hear from cheney anymore. Poor guy is probably in a bunker, scared to death, again.

BMDPD

December 23rd, 2009
2:54 pm

md, You still can’t tell me with a straight face that we fought in Iraq so Cheney’s boys could make money… However, I will concede that Cheney’s boys took advantage of the situation. That is what business people do. They find advantageous events and profit from them.

md

December 23rd, 2009
2:55 pm

Anyone here remember why the Soviet Union collapsed? The went broke, from too much spending.

Anyone here naive enough to think it can’t happen to us? Bush cleaned out the checking account and now Barry is maxing out the credit cards, care to guess what’s next.

getalife

December 23rd, 2009
2:55 pm

md,

How about freeing the oil for global commerce.

Good enough for ya?

BMDPD

December 23rd, 2009
2:56 pm

getalife, we will never close Guantanamo. It has been there forever. The prison isn’t even the main mission.

Doggone/GA

December 23rd, 2009
2:56 pm

I’ve always thought the acronym for the ORIGINAL “name” for the Iraqi invasion said it all. And I’ve never changed my mind:

Operation Iraqi Liberation

Tom

December 23rd, 2009
2:57 pm

Another great American “success” story. Another “mission accomplished.” Alcoholic BushDrunk & his criminals set the entire Middle East aflame – then left it for Obama to inherit. The TRUTH was murdered in cold blood before the first ignorant shot was fired. And the “wars” lost long before even that. Why don’t we just clean up those messes by sending over the usual war-mongering “never-serveds”??

BMDPD

December 23rd, 2009
2:57 pm

md, I know…. I know…. We start learning Chinese… They along with the Japanese own almost 50% of our debt!

getalife

December 23rd, 2009
2:58 pm

And the holders of our debt did get the contracts.

China wants to mine for minerals like copper in the Afghan mountains.

Jimmy62

December 23rd, 2009
3:00 pm

Wow, no one seems upset that Obama signed away our sovereignty to a foreign power. I’m surprised. And it has nothing to do with war criminals, as Interpol can now arrest and drag away anyone they want, whether they are a war criminal or not, without any evidence, and without our own government being able to do anything about it.

I don’t see how anyone can think that’s a good thing, unless their ultimate aim is for us to be merely one part of a world-wide government. Obama seems to be aiming in that direction.

Doggone/GA

December 23rd, 2009
3:02 pm

“Wow, no one seems”

Well, you appear to be…so it’s not correct to say NO ONE is upset.

getalife

December 23rd, 2009
3:03 pm

Jimmy62,

Read your link.

It is about war criminals.

Tom

December 23rd, 2009
3:06 pm

What “Irag surge success” was that?? The one where we set up mountains of concrete barriers in a section of Baghdad, parked tanks next to them?? Had “Ace” McShame and Lieberstein take a “safe, fun” shopping tour, while holding hands together?? As Al Sadr backed off, saving himself needless casualties – just watching & waiting. THAT “surge success”?? And isn’t now-destroyed & Blackwater-plundered Iraq a wondrous, safe, liberated, highly democratic nation?? Praise Jeesussah!!

Kamchak

December 23rd, 2009
3:17 pm

The “war for oil” is a bunch of hogwash. No way we send in 130k troops for oil and then let Iraq award the oil contracts to every other country including the ones that opposed the war. Some need to find an excuse that at least makes sense.

It was never about the commodity itself, it was about the price of oil.

NYMEX Feb. 28 2003 contract 36.60

Today 76.64

Outhouse Go-Kart

December 23rd, 2009
3:19 pm

Jimmy62

December 23rd, 2009
2:43 pm

If Obobo does it then its being done for good reason. We need to just trust Father-Obobo. We need to sing songs of praise to our great leader!

Oh Obobo…you are great we stand in awe
Oh Obobo…michelle our first lantern jaw
Oh praise him and on to victory we go
Oh praise him our mighty and strong Obobo!

Doggone/GA

December 23rd, 2009
3:25 pm

per Sentor Burris:

Mr. President: It was the night before Christmas

It was the night before Christmas, and all through the Senate
The right held up our health care bill, no matter what was in it
The people had voted a mandated reform
But Republicans blew off the gathering storm
We’ll clog up the Senate, they cried with a grin
And in the midterm elections, we’ll get voted in
They knew regular folks needed help right this second
But fundraisers, lobbyists and politics beckoned
So try as they might, Democrats could not win
Because the majority was simply too thin
Then across every state there rose such a clatter
The whole senate rushed out to see what was the matter
All sprang up from their desk and ran from the floor
Straight through the cloakroom and right out the door

And what in the world would be quite so raucous?
But a mandate for change from the Democratic caucus
The president, the Speaker, of course Leader Reid
Had answered the call in our hour of need
More rapid than eagles, the provisions they came
And they whistled and shouted and called them by name
Better coverage, cost savings, a strong public plan [sic]
Accountable options. We said, ‘Yes, we can.’
No exclusions or changes for preexisting conditions
Let’s pass a bill that restores competition
The Democrats all came together to fight
For the American people that Christmas Eve night

And then in a twinkle, I heard under the dome
The roll call was closed, and it was time to go home
Despite the obstructionist tactics of some
The filibuster had broken, the people had won
And a good bill was ready for President Obama
Ready to sign and end health care drama
Democrats explained as they drove out of sight
Better coverage for all, even our friends on the right.

Carmine

December 23rd, 2009
3:29 pm

Humphrey Bogart marathon this afternoon!

BMDPD

December 23rd, 2009
3:30 pm

Doggone, someone wasted a lot of time. What percentage of Americans want the bill to pass?

Hard Right Hook

December 23rd, 2009
3:34 pm

Kamchak

December 23rd, 2009
12:58 pm
“Superpowers continue to send Afghanistan back to the Stone Age, yet none has conquered them. Until this cycle is broken, tribalism is alive and well.”

Send? Funny, they seemed to enjoy living in a very primitive way. “Superpowers” didn’t have far to send them.

And now that they’ve discovered the value of their natural resources (read: poppies), well, supply & demand. Works every time it’s tried.

Kamchak

December 23rd, 2009
3:46 pm

Funny, they seemed to enjoy living in a very primitive way.

Yep. The tribal leaders have a vested interest in hanging on to their fiefdoms. Superpowers get punked every time.

“Superpowers” didn’t have far to send them.

They didn’t get too far after the Soviets vacated the area.

Jackie

December 23rd, 2009
3:48 pm

@Kamchak

When I got “back to the world,” I came through San Francisco in my uniform, stayed in the city for a tourist view and flew home. No problems with anyone or anything. Had captain of the airline to salute all those who were in uniform.

Southern Comfort

December 23rd, 2009
3:50 pm

Jimmy62

Just a couple of things I see in your link:

“This could conceivably include human assets”

I don’t think humans could be considered assets unless we revert back to a system of valuing people as chattel. Just a hunch, but I don’t forsee that happening.

Have you heard of diplomatic immunity? Just because they get immunity doesn’t mean that they just run amok doing whatever they wish. Contrary to what your link says, the U.S. Constitution is and always will be the supreme law of this land. Just because they’re granted immunity doesn’t guarantee that they can even touch U.S. soil. They have to first be granted permission from the State Dept to even enter the U.S.

I understand the tone of the article, but from what I know and have personally seen and done, I don’t see that scenario playing out.