We can’t keep going on like this….
Sooner or later, the piper demands to be paid:
With the national debt now topping $12 trillion, the White House estimates that the government’s tab for servicing the debt will exceed $700 billion a year in 2019, up from $202 billion this year, even if annual budget deficits shrink drastically. Other forecasters say the figure could be much higher.
In concrete terms, an additional $500 billion a year in interest expense would total more than the combined federal budgets this year for education, energy, homeland security and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The potential for rapidly escalating interest payouts is just one of the wrenching challenges facing the United States after decades of living beyond its means.
NOTE: I’m on vacation this week, so posting will be a little lighter than normal. As you might have noticed….
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690 comments Add your comment
josef nix
November 23rd, 2009
5:08 pm
Hillbilly
“My guess is we’d be well on our way to a return to feudalism and somehow I just don’t think I’d have made a good serf.”
In this part of the empire we did descend into feudalism and only began to emerge in the 1960s. In great swaths of my much beloved South, we are still there…but, shh, we’re not supposed to talk about it for to do so we have to use such terms as “colonialism,” “imperialism” and such Marxist terminologies and with them a left wing perspective to domestic conditions that, well, just aren’t politically correct, right or left, given the population we are talking about here…
Hillbilly Deluxe
November 23rd, 2009
5:15 pm
we have to use such terms as “colonialism,”
But if it’s you’re own country colonizing you, it can’t be colonialism can it?
Better not even get started on the discriminatory freight rates of the railroads from late 1860ish on up until the mid 1900s, when a man in Tennesse could sell you goods cheaper than somebody from up north, but the total cost would be higher if you bought it in Tennessee, because the freight charges were more from Tennessee to Georgia than from up north to Georgia (or any other part of the South).
(Glad I proofread this. I caught one of them grammatical errors but I’m not going to tell y’all what it was)
Suppertime.
DoggoneGA
November 23rd, 2009
5:15 pm
“You already knew all of that?”
Why wow? Do you really think it’s not possible that I already knew that? I also know that Adrew Carnegie lowered the pay of his workers to fund his philanthropy, because he knew better than they did how their money should be spent. You won’t find that in most history books either.
And I know that, like Ford, most of the inventions of Thomas Edison were not invented by him…they came out of his “invention factory” and were the work of others that he hired. Though, to give him the credit he IS due…they also worked to flesh out into a working object the ideas that he did have.
DoggoneGA
November 23rd, 2009
5:17 pm
“What, corporations would not pay taxes on what they purchase? They buy corn, wheat and chickens from farmers. They buy coal and iron ore. They can’t make anything without buying something, except a song writer.”
Corporations buy at the wholesale level, not the retail level.
“Does someone spend money when he buys shares of stock or bonds? Is that taxable? Does it make sense that money put in a bank earns interest but the productivity of that money is different from the productivity of my labor?”
When they spend the money at the retail level, they get taxed.
Paul
November 23rd, 2009
5:19 pm
DoggoneGA
Parts of it, didn’t surprise me. But when you said you already knew EVERYTHING Mr. Wallace wrote about… no exceptions… all the little factoids… including the story of Mr. Lee… how Edsel died… the ‘make a list’ task Sorensen was given… yeah, I did find that surprising for just about anyone except a Ford researcher.
jt
November 23rd, 2009
5:19 pm
Paul, Josef, and Hillbilly-
A little oversight and regulation? Good.
But when have you all known when the Gov. yeilds to good sense.
It is unreal how history repeats itself.
http://www.fff.org/freedom/fd0908d.asp
Also- Hillbilly you ask “what exploited worker next”.
Prisoners.
Pogo
November 23rd, 2009
5:20 pm
DoDo says, “The CEO salary is usually 45% of the company’s yearly projected gross) Just asking………”.
WHAT A PILE OF COMPOST! What must it feel like when you are pulling those numbers out of your bung DoDo? Must be good because you do it constantly. Just asking!
Oh, and your little Coke thing doesn’t add up either. There are way more costs (both O&M and Capital) involved than just the simplistic production/profit scenario you portray for a can of Coke. Yes the profit margin is high but so are all incurred expenses for producing and selling the product. I must surmise that you must have been rejected by Coke in Atlanta for a job at one time or another or maybe you got a job with them but it didn’t work out.
Nevertheless, you are a typical Socialist/victim. Blame the ambiguous, greedy and all evil “Man” for this countrys problems. Responsibility could never lie with the government nor the populace could it? Did you receive indoctrination in some substandard diploma mill or what? Do you also own a “Che” t-shirt? Maybe you can join up with AmVet and you two can spend your days rallying the masses on this blog (all 30-40 of us) against the industrial machine. Meanwhile, the idiots in our government are sucking the marrow right out of your bones and yet you still yell “its the greedy corporations fault!”.
jt
November 23rd, 2009
5:23 pm
And Josef-
Henry Ford WAS quite the anti-semite, but……………..
his attitude was normal at the time.
Not that that excuses it. You know what I’m saying.
AmVet
November 23rd, 2009
5:27 pm
So Paul is a condescending pig and Doggone is a socialist? (We already all know I am a fill in the blank…)
Man I’m out for a few hours and my how the world has changed!
And let me be the first to say to everyone, in the most politically incorrect of choices, Happy Holidays!
(And in a sinister voice, “Let the war on Christmas begin!!! Bwahahahahahahaha!”)
@@
November 23rd, 2009
5:28 pm
Good grief, Paul! It wasn’t Nader’s statement on charitable giving that helped me to come to a conclusion about Ralph. I used to admire the guy.
Ralph should have stayed with the Green Party, I sincerely believe he embraces their cause, but…the greens weren’t taking him where he wanted to go, so he hooked up with a bunch of loons.
So yes, AmVet, I….for one, think Ralphie is a loon. If it makes you feel any better, I think Pat Buchannan is a loon for aligning himself with a bunch of loons in The New Alliance Party of LOONS!
HECK! In his latest literary endeavor, Buchannan thought it best not to interfere with Hitler’s extermination of the Jews. Wasn’t in OUR best interest, said he.
People like Ralph, Paul, Buchannan and the like are a bunch of isolationists, not unlike a handful of loons in JBS. Libertarianism has its good points, but isolationist policies ain’t among ‘em.
Paul
November 23rd, 2009
5:31 pm
AmVet
Liberal, socialist, conservative, anarchist, neocon…
but, sigh… now I have to go and have my personality assaulted.
It takes a lot of creative effort to be irritating, don’tcha’ know?
Bud Wiser
November 23rd, 2009
5:36 pm
Forwarded to me by a friend — how true, how so very true…..
The Difference between a Conservative and a Liberal:
If a conservative doesn’t like guns, he doesn’t buy one.
If a liberal doesn’t like guns, he wants all guns outlawed.
If a conservative is a vegetarian, he doesn’t eat meat.
If a liberal is a vegetarian, he wants all meat products banned for everyone.
If a conservative sees a foreign threat, he thinks about how to defeat his enemy.
If a liberal sees a foreign threat he wonders how to apologize and still look good.
If a conservative is homosexual, he quietly leads his life.
If a liberal is homosexual, he calls you homophobic and demands new laws to suit his lifestyle.
If a person of color is conservative, they see themselves as independently successful.
Their liberal counterparts see themselves as victims in need of government intervention.
If a conservative is down-and-out, he works harder to better his situation.
A liberal demands more help from the government.
If a conservative doesn’t like biased news reporting he switches channels.
Liberals (who strongly believe in free speech) demand that those they don’t like be censored.
If a conservative is a non-believer, he doesn’t go to church.
A liberal non-believer wants any mention of God and religion silenced. (Unless it’s a foreign religion, of course.)
If a conservative needs health care, he either buys it or chooses a job that provides it.
A liberal demands that the rest of us pay for his.
If a conservative slips and falls in a store, he gets up and laughs.
If a liberal slips and falls, he grabs his neck, moans like he’s in labor and then sues.
If a conservative reads this, he’ll pass it along to his friends because it speaks the truth.
A liberal will delete it because he’s “offended”.
josef nix
November 23rd, 2009
5:37 pm
jt
His attitude was normal up north…not down South and in the West…the triple K took off in his industrial wasteland and never reallhy did down South or out West (regardless of what the happy textbook story says). It’s anti Semitism was one of the key reasons why…sales of his scurrilous anti-Semitic publications in the South and West were only a fraction of their sales in the Midwest and Northeast…no small part of this, of course, was from the traditions brought in with the workers from Central and Eastern Europe.
Hillbilly….
“But if it’s you’re own country colonizing you, it can’t be colonialism can it?”
Well, the Ukrainians, Quebecois, Scots, Zulu, among others might have an opinion on that…
Paul
November 23rd, 2009
5:38 pm
@@
I kinda thought the Greens were pretty out there and the Libertarians became so dogmatic they lost touch with reality. I figured Ralph just went where there was an organization that would give him a venue to advertise his views.
Seriously, he’s different from the mainstream. Does one have to agree a hundred percent with anyone? Heck, no. But he has original thoughts. He’s willing to buck conventional wisdom. He does without handlers and PR types. He pretty much says what he thinks.
I think that’s something to be admired.
@@
November 23rd, 2009
5:38 pm
Paul:
You were hoisted on your own petard.
AmVet
November 23rd, 2009
5:39 pm
Hell, Paul those are the EASY ones.
Try America hater, Communist, fake veteran and my latest favorite – loon!
When someone has told you that YOU are one of those, you’ve really reached the pinnacle of irritating!
What is humorous is how some, like you and Bruno, see that my shtick is just that. The same as I “see” yours.
But then you guys try to ruin everything…
jt
November 23rd, 2009
5:41 pm
The nugget to my link is the last few paragraphs. FDR’s policy wonks at least admitted their errors. I just can’t see Obama doing this————————————
—————————————————————————————————————————————-
” Economists at the Brookings Institution reported, “The NRA on the whole retarded recovery.” Roosevelt’s Brain Truster Raymond Moley was among the framers of the NRA who later acknowledged the error of their ways. “Planning an economy in normal times is possible only through the discipline of a police state,” he reflected.
They cannot have the cake of free enterprise and also eat it away by government directives. Government … cannot summon the talent to create positive means for operating a free economy.…
“Economic planning on a national scale in a politically free society involves contradictions that cannot be resolved in practice. The bones of the Blue Eagle should be a grim reminder of this reality.
Experience with the NRA ought to offer a warning for President Obama and others who imagine that government is smart enough to make an economy prosper. “
Paul
November 23rd, 2009
5:44 pm
@@ – your 5:38, then AmVet’s 5:39…. see why I like this place?
Can ya’ guess which is schtick and which isn’t?
jt
November 23rd, 2009
5:44 pm
josef nix
November 23rd, 2009
5:37 pm
jt
His attitude was normal up north…not down South and in the West…the triple K took off in his industrial wasteland and never reallhy did down South or out West (regardless of what the happy textbook story says). It’s anti Semitism was one of the key reasons why…sales of his scurrilous anti-Semitic publications in the South and West were only a fraction of their sales in the Midwest and Northeast…no small part of this, of course, was from the traditions brought in with the workers from Central and Eastern Europe.
Didn’t know about publications. I’ll have to bone up. I thought that he was just a run-of-the-mill early 20th century bigot.
@@
November 23rd, 2009
5:46 pm
Oh pishah, AmVet…the only reason you’ve remained here for so long is because of those who irritate you….two conservatives in particular, although, unlike you, I don’t elevate myself to be among the two.
@@
November 23rd, 2009
5:49 pm
Paul:
AmVet can claim it’s schtick now, but believe me….there was no schtick in the schmuck when he was HUGE. His ego knows no bounds.
Clommon Sense
November 23rd, 2009
5:50 pm
It’s really sad to watch a country go down the tubes due to corruption, greed and political correctness………when our elected representative ignore our appeals.
What will it take to get us to wake up? Our allegiance is not to the President, Congress “or” the Supreme Court. Our allegiance is to the Constitution which has been repeatedly violated. At what point and how do the patriots of our day take it back?
“When plunder becomes a way of life for a group of men living together in society, they create for themselves in the course of time a legal system that authorizes it and a moral code that justifies it.”
Frederic Bastiat
“All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.”
Sir Edmund Burke.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm!
November 23rd, 2009
5:50 pm
The libs whine about their little pet Zombie-
Moreover, G.M. is not, in the strictest sense, paying back taxpayers at all. Rather, it is refunding $6.7 billion of an $18 billion escrow account that was given to it by the government when it emerged from bankruptcy. The rest of that account will be used to cover fourth-quarter losses (including $2.8 billion pledged for the rescue of G.M.’s major parts supplier, Delphi), repay loans from the Canadian government, and possibly prop up the automaker’s shaky European operations. That escrow account is due to expire in June, at which time G.M. will repay what remains of the $6.7 billion from this week’s pledge — and then pocket the estimated $5.6 billion remainder.-TreasonTimes
Why, it’s almost as though the Union leeches aren’t sucking GM dry, of course not, blame GM for their losses.
When you got an idiot liberal readership, you can make up any story you want.
AmVet
November 23rd, 2009
5:53 pm
Pishah? Is that kind like pshaw? Maybe its the Republican spelling. (Or Malaysian…)
As for Ford being an anti-Jewish bigot, who back then either wasn’t or knew they could get away with it if they were?
(Don’t freak out anyone, it’s rhetorical…)
As josef and I discussed earlier, it’s because we owned all the banks and the goyim were PO’d!
Julian Coats
November 23rd, 2009
5:54 pm
What I don’t understand is why the news media allows the right-wing to keep fallaciously suggesting that the Democrats are mainly responsible for the sizeable National Debt. A review of the National Debt since 1950 shows that approximately 84 percent ($9.9 Trillion) was incurred under Republican Administrations and 16 percent ($1.9 Trillion) under Democratic Administrations. It should be noticed that at the end of the Clinton Administration, there was a beginning of a reversal of the rising trend. That effort was quickly reversed with the appointment of Bush to be president. Also, it is noticeable that the news media never makes mention of the wide variance in the performance of the stock markets under Republican verses Democrat Administrations. A review of the DOW Industrials since 1900 shows that the net gain under Republican Administrations was 25 points verses 10,400 points under Democratic Administrations. Likewise, there is a substantial variance with respect to the S&P. Since 1900, the S&P (there has been various aspects of this index) has a net loss of 131 points under Republican Administrations and a gain of more than 1,200 points under Democratic Administration. Wake up America!
thomas
November 23rd, 2009
5:54 pm
Debbie I have never once seen you post anything that was critical of the amount of spending that this adminstartion has been doing. And I looked at all of the available archives. Could you show were your alleged criticism has been?
And if your transmission goes out and you cannot afford to replace or buy another car there are options. Walk, catch a ride with someone else and offer to contribute to gas, public transportaion (if available)or ride a bike.
But throwing mass amounts of money at a problem is usually the best way to go about it, instead of sitting down and logically thinking about the best way to solve the problem without spending too much money.
I will be waiting on your post to show that as you claimed you have been critical of the Obama adminstrations historic spending rates. If you cannot provide it then you are nothing more than a pretender, liar, obfuscator and are guilty of trying to re-write history and you are failing to call a spade a spade.
Me thinks that you are no different than the republicans you dislike so much, you have no problem with spending as long as YOU see it worthy, but you have issues of waste if YOU don’t think it is a worthy cause. Just be honest with yourself if not us, you will feel better.
thomas
November 23rd, 2009
5:57 pm
Julian, do you think the info at the end of the Clinton era had anything to do with the dot.com boost and then followed by the dot.com bust?
BTW who controlled congress, you know the group that delegates money, at that time you are speaking of?
@@
November 23rd, 2009
6:02 pm
AmVet, the PeaShah!!?!!
DoggoneGA
November 23rd, 2009
6:03 pm
“yeah, I did find that surprising for just about anyone except a Ford researcher”
Well…I might not have been able to recite it word for word if you’d asked me, but on reading it – it all came together as stuff I had learned before.
DoggoneGA
November 23rd, 2009
6:04 pm
“Doggone is a socialist?”
I am? That’s news to me.
AmVet
November 23rd, 2009
6:08 pm
Julian and thomas, I think that what it really indicates is that as is true with so many other misnomers the GOP is not and has not for a very long time been what they pretended to be.
THEY ARE NOT CONSERVATIVES.
And they haven’t been since Nixon at the very latest.
Reagan was an imperialist and a dictator coddler who ballooned virtually every aspect of government. From profligate spending to militarism to having Eddie Meese and the Theocrats (a helluva band name, doncha think?) run his Sex Police.
They are NOT fiscal conservatives.
They are NOT social conservatives.
They are reactionaries and corporatists.
And by and large, failures…
md
November 23rd, 2009
6:09 pm
Julian,
Your numbers mean absolutely nothing. If every administration was run totally by one party or the other, they might have some bearing, but since that is not the case, they are worthless.
Here is an example – The last balanced budget came under Clinton. But Clinton had to submit 5 budgets before he got one through, and we had a republican Congress.
Contrary to your argument, it is actually better to have a balanced gov’t forced to work together vs a partisan gov’t implementing an agenda which will need to be amended at a later date due to its failure to work for us all.
Jackie
November 23rd, 2009
6:09 pm
@md
Do you refuse to acknowledge the unions in the Midwestern States have a contract with GM and Ford?; do you understand the UAW amended their contract with GM and Ford and took over health care benefits from the company prior to the bailout from the Government?’ do you realize that ALL Southern states are right-to-work states meaning the unions are only for purposes or organization and do not have the right to force the companies to bargain with the unions in good faith?’ you do realize real wages have been falling for union and non-union employess throughout the USA since the 1990’s?
Secondly, you are trying to qualify your argument. Coca-Cola is one example used to show how American companies prospered and shared the properity with those who invested in that company. Does that paradigm work consistently today?
Henry Ford was working in a different time. The manufacturing environment has not changed relative to how pricing of products are accounted. You know that material, labor and burden/overhead are ALWAYS used for cost accounting. Right?
getalife
November 23rd, 2009
6:09 pm
“There ain’t going to be no money for nothing if we pour it all into Afghanistan,” House Appropriations Chairman David Obey told ABC News in an exclusive interview. “If they ask for an increased troop commitment in Afghanistan, I am going to ask them to pay for it.”
Looks like Obama’s begging to borrow more money has failed.
Have to tax the rich.
AmVet
November 23rd, 2009
6:10 pm
Doggone, according to up and down you are.
Hey at least you’re not a loon!
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm!
November 23rd, 2009
6:10 pm
When you look at the failed Democratic policies on stimulus, cap and trade and healthcare, it looks like their recovery strategy is, “the beatings will continue until morale improves.” Democrat policies in Washington, D.C. are taking our economy from bad to worse. The unemployment rate in this country reached a 26-year high, 10.2 percent, the worst since 1983, and the national debt reaches 12 trillion dollars.
And where was President Obama this week? In China visiting our money and being lectured on monetary policy by communist dictators. But seriously, the image is striking: a President of the United States, flying on one more foreign junket, to one more glamorous capital, as our nation continues to struggle in the city and on the farm and unemployment rises to record levels.
And, to borrow a line from a great American, more and more Americans realize every day that a recession is when your neighbor loses his job, a depression is when you lose your job, and a recovery is when Nancy Pelosi loses her job. -Mike Pence
Clommon Sense
November 23rd, 2009
6:11 pm
AJC Headline: Clayton County Sheriff: “No hot meals any time soon”
“Jail violating state law, which requires 2 hot meals daily for prisoners ………….
On Monday, ……. the 1,900 inmates in Clayton got a cold chicken patty and some pasta salad.”
Hey, you’re breaking my heart! I ate a lot of cold C-Rations in Nam for a year. You’ll live. Quit whining ………….. if you don’t like it there …….. don’t go back!
Paul
November 23rd, 2009
6:11 pm
getalife
[[Have to tax the rich.]]
Or get back to the original mission in Afghanistan.
josef nix
November 23rd, 2009
6:16 pm
On Ford–he published, among other things, The Protocols of the Elders of Zion…
Be back in a bit, grandbabies dropped in for a surprise visit…
DebbieDoRight
November 23rd, 2009
6:17 pm
Pogo: I have no idea what Coca Cola distribution/production costs are, (I wouldn’t be privy to that information unless I was on the board). I was giving a “for instance”. That’s why I said the magic word “if”. Also, dude eat more fiber — your bowels backing up, into your brains.
boogers: Too funny!!
— I guess I did sound sort of “LaQuisha” huh?
josef: hey josef!! ready for the holiday break? When I read the words “diploma mill”; I think of something substandard and easily obtained. Perhaps boogers didn’t mean it that way. We’ll see.
thomas: I did make a derogatory comment about Obama’s spending — but it was back in May of this year, or maybe April, can’t remember when………I can’t afford to pay for the archive fee, so if you want to see my comment, please send money to this following address: 2831 NW Ueatshet Ave. Apartment #1; Atlanta GA 30339 — thanks!!
josef; i read an article a few weeks back that stated basically that for the past 300+ years, modern man has been blaming all their social wrongs, bad fortunes, and bad decisions on two ethnic groups, blacks and hebrews. No matter what, it’s always their fault. I feel your pain…..
thomas: If you have a car AND the money to get it fixed, why not get it fixed? Why keep paying insurance/fees on a car that doesn’t run? How could you have taken a simple analogy and turned it into something really different from the intent? Talk about dumbing something down…..
@@
November 23rd, 2009
6:23 pm
DDR:
josef; i read an article a few weeks back that stated basically that for the past 300+ years, modern man has been blaming all their social wrongs, bad fortunes, and bad decisions on two ethnic groups, blacks and hebrews. No matter what, it’s always their fault.
One thing you won’t see in today’s modern times, is a conservative calling a black conservative, Uncle Tom.
DoggoneGA
November 23rd, 2009
6:26 pm
“Doggone, according to up and down you are”
I’ll have to take your word for it…I don’t read his posts, unless something happenes to catch my eye as I scroll past. Which seldom happens, I scroll pretty fast!
DebbieDoRight
November 23rd, 2009
6:30 pm
@@: One thing you won’t see in today’s modern times, is a conservative calling a black conservative, Uncle Tom.
They mostly call them dumb. Behind their backs of course….
Paul
November 23rd, 2009
6:33 pm
DDR
Took a road trip to Branson last week. On the way back was scrolling thru the dial and hit Glen Beck. Before I kept going I stopped. Seems he had a large group of Black Conservatives in to discuss their experiences. Quite startling. Especially when they related the treatment they got from Black Nonconservatives.
I’ll now close with the obligatory “you’ll never hear a group like that on MSNBC.”
@@
November 23rd, 2009
6:33 pm
DDR:
No way, now how. Independent thinkers can never be labeled as dumb.
AmSweat:
Hey at least you’re not a loon!
You’re gonna have to show me where I called you a loon. I said Ralphie was a loon.
I’ve always called you a big A$$.
md
November 23rd, 2009
6:36 pm
Jackie,
I was a card carrying dues paying union member for over 20 years – I’ve seen the destruction from the inside. Entry level jobs are not meant to be life long positions paying 70-80k a year. They are part of the problem, not the solution.
And labor costs are higher in union companies, it is a fact. Why do you think the foreign automakers set up shop in the south?
Paul
November 23rd, 2009
6:37 pm
DDR
Here’s a link about the people in the audience. Google had it listed part 1, 2, 3 etc.
Paul
November 23rd, 2009
6:38 pm
DDR,
oh yeah, the link:
http://www.bookerrising.net/2009/11/black-conservative-town-hall-meeting-on_13.html
@@
November 23rd, 2009
6:39 pm
md:
Question to a former union member. Are they not among the biggest abusers of workman’s comp claims? I’ve known many who brag about their ability to escape job responsibility thru workman’s comp.
Dusty
November 23rd, 2009
6:45 pm
This blog has deterioated into Undermine America. No wonder ABM left early. It is discouraging.
AmVet has assured me that the principles of capitalism were broken here and Bush had more clandestine meetings than the world could imagine. Of course, Democrats have searched everywhere to indict Bush on something but can’t find anything illegal.
AmVet still believes the old “take from the rich and give to the poor” which is the backbone of communism. And he does so enjoy acting like Bush and Reagan were our worst enemies. The sweet and sour up and downs of his posts makes one wonder.
Normal and DDR think it would be great to remove most of our military, our volunteer military. Yes, dump them back into the working world of few jobs and tell them to go. With no benefits??? Meanwhile the terrorist elements of this world are spreading to new places and itching for world power. I’d say about half the world’s population would come to America if they could because they feel that we are FREE as in Freedom. They think they would be safe. Uh huh.
And those minorities who serve in our forces should not be there in the present number? Why not? Minorities can’t fight for their country? It was their choice. Are we now telling these folks that they were wrong to join the military? Now that is real Americanism from the liberal viewpoint.
Yemen? The Saudi Army attacked a border city in Yemen over a week ago. They don’t like terrorists on their border either.
JOSEF, I have a bone to pick with you. I grew up in the good ol’ South without one bit of feudalism basking in the sun in my environment. You’ve been reading too much Faulkner and the shady lady from Milledgeville. They were both nuts and you know it. Or maybe it was something like Deliverance and other trash. Anyway, for shame, my friend. You have stepped on my magnolia, put water in my mint julep, and rejected my white columns. . You have thrown down the glove! En garde!!.
Now off to dinner. Might as well go burn something.
JC
November 23rd, 2009
6:48 pm
What I don’t understand is why the news media allows the right-wing to keep fallaciously suggesting that the Democrats are mainly responsible for the sizable National Debt. A review of the National Debt since 1950 shows that approximately 84 percent ($9.9 Trillion) was incurred under Republican Administrations and 16 percent ($1.9 Trillion) under Democratic Administrations. It should be noticed that at the end of the Clinton Administration, there was a beginning of a reversal of the rising trend. That effort was quickly reversed with the appointment of Bush to be president. Also, it is noticeable that the news media never makes mention of the wide variance in the performance of the stock markets under Republican verses Democrat Administrations. A review of the DOW Industrials since 1900 shows that the net gain under Republican Administrations was 25 points verses 10,400 points under Democratic Administrations. Likewise, there is a substantial variance with respect to the S&P. Since 1900, the S&P (there has been various aspects of this index) has a net loss of 131 points under Republican Administrations and a gain of more than 1,200 points under Democratic Administration. Wake up America!
Hillbilly Deluxe
November 23rd, 2009
6:49 pm
Josef @ 5:37
My comment about colonialism was intended to be tongue in cheek.
Nothing Is Free
November 23rd, 2009
6:49 pm
md
**Why do you think the foreign automakers set up shop in the south?*
Most Southern plants are still UAW shops, but because of the laws, the unions doesn’t have as much power and it is manageable.
Rightwing Troll
November 23rd, 2009
6:50 pm
All I can say is don’t do work for Coca Cola as a contractor, unless you like to wait 6-9 months for your money…
Sigh!…
Still waiting for one single solitary example of ANYTHING Obama has done that adversely affects ANY of your day to day lives…today…
Paul
November 23rd, 2009
6:50 pm
Dusty
Might I suggest forgetting the mint julep and having some bourbon, neat, before proceeding further? At least if you do burn something (doubtful) you won’t care!
DebbieDoRight
November 23rd, 2009
6:51 pm
Paul & @@: Yeah I know that black conservatives get the “shaft” a lot but honestly sometimes i think they deserve it!! They’re bowing down to a party that, historically and literally paints all blacks with the same brush. When they need to get the “white” labor part of their party going, they automatically demonize blacks (and hispanics), in order to get out the vote!! And GLEN BECK had black people on his show?!
I’m really surprised to hear that! Last i heard from Glen, he was scared to speak to blacks…
@@
November 23rd, 2009
6:54 pm
I don’t wanna cause undue alarm, but all indications are that we’re about to engage in a military confrontation with Iran.
NATO Deputy Secretary-General Claudio Bisogniero is leading a top-level delegation to Israel on Nov. 23-24, according to a statement from the Israeli Ministry of Foreign Affairs. The delegation will meet with senior ministry officials, including Foreign Affairs Minister Avigdor Lieberman and Intelligence and Atomic Energy Minister Dan Meridor. The talks are taking place in the framework of the Individual Cooperation Program.
Russia is not coming on board as fast as Obama would like. They’re withholding from Iran, but all their offering is sanctions. China could care less, and Israel is getting antsy given Iran’s bloviating. That could be the only logical reason for Obama’s delay on Afghanistan.
The only thing that causes me to doubt is Iran’s ability to block the straits.
Maybe a naval blockade…something’s goin’ on.
Jackie
November 23rd, 2009
6:54 pm
@md
If you were a member of a labor union, how do you denigrate your fellow workers?
Unions have offered protection to American workers, the most productive in the world, which have raised the level of prosperity of the American workers to that of being the richest nation in the world. What is the problem with that scenario?
As for your reference to the auto companies moving to the South, think about that? There is a truism that indicates “…if you can’t take the salves to the jobs, you take the jobs to the slaves.”
Wouldn’t you want your product to be manufactured by the most productive and best educated work force in the world? We realize companies make their profit in several ways; either they profit by increasing the margins on small volumes, or, decrease their profits on large volumes. Either way, you make the same amount of money.
Given these set of facts, your cost accounting formula still stands; material, labor, burden/overhead make up the cost of goods and services.
Comparative analysis will show those companies that pay higher wages usually have a more stable, productive work force, don’t you agree?
Nothing Is Free
November 23rd, 2009
6:55 pm
JC
**A review of the National Debt since 1950 shows that approximately 84 percent ($9.9 Trillion) was incurred under Republican Administrations**
Go back and see how many years were under control of a Democratic Congress. The president has the power to veto, but laws that determine the economy are determined by Congress, not the president. A great example is how the economy was roaring in 2006, but as soon as the Democrats took over Congress, we started crashing and burning.
Jackie
November 23rd, 2009
6:56 pm
@Debbie Do Right
Wonder what platitudes conservatives give to Clarence Thomas?
AmVet
November 23rd, 2009
6:58 pm
I know EXACTLY what ya mean Doggone.
He is one of the more even tempered posters here.
He’s ALWAYS p!ssed off!
Yes, DDR, I am sorely convinced that among the misnamed conservatives, they have no bigots in their ranks. None, nary, nada, zip.
It was after all, mainly the southern, white, male “conservatives” who fought, sometimes giving up their own lives, alongside minorities and women in the fight for basic human justice for in the 60s!
While the liberals tried to do everything in their power to stop them.
Too funny…
Nothing Is Free
November 23rd, 2009
6:59 pm
Jackie
**Wouldn’t you want your product to be manufactured by the most productive and best educated work force in the world?**
What I would like is to allow the technology that has been used to manufacture cars all over the world for the past 40 years to be used here. The UAW allows robotics to be used in welding and materials handling. I was in the Doraville assembly plant all the time, and between the employees getting high in the parking lot and watching them assemble cars like we assembled Model Ts, I am amazed that we ever sold any cars.
DebbieDoRight
November 23rd, 2009
7:00 pm
Jackie: Wonder what platitudes conservatives give to Clarence Thomas?
They probably say, “That’ll do pig, that’ll do.
md
November 23rd, 2009
7:00 pm
@@,
Abuse is designed into the contracts. Sick leave, workers comp, discipline – all built in fraud as far as I was concerned. They protect the weak and promote sorry work ethic not to mention screw the customer if it meant a better contract. It was despicable behavior.
To answer your question directly, I knew of many that used workers comp as extra vacation time. The joke used to be that they all got the same bag of pills from the clinic for whatever their ailment happened to be, and time off was guarnateed as long as it still “hurt”.
DebbieDoRight
November 23rd, 2009
7:02 pm
NIF that Doraville staff was the most productive, and made more cars with less deficiencies, than any other Ford plant in the world. Maybe everyone should get high in the parking lot.
Jackie
November 23rd, 2009
7:04 pm
@NIF
Workers at any plant are required to follow the rules of conduct and the manufacturing process is dictated by management.
So, when process control schedules are put into place along with other planning with the ERP, workers are following the script laid out for them.
As for the cars being sold, American auto manufacturers and the workers must have been doing quite well, as EVERY car manufacturer in the world must sell here to be profitable.
Wonder why that works?
md
November 23rd, 2009
7:05 pm
“If you were a member of a labor union, how do you denigrate your fellow workers?”
I’d say it was the other way around. How could many of them push their corruption and sorriness on the ones that wanted to put in a good days work for a good days pay.
Unions came into existence for all the right reasons, now many exist for all the wrong reasons.
Nothing Is Free
November 23rd, 2009
7:05 pm
AmVet
You do support the party of George Wallace and the party that founded the second KKK.
Liberals always claim to be concerned about helping the minorities while they fight against vouchers, the only attempt at improving their schools since the Republicans pushed busing in order to evenly distribute opportunities back in the 70s, resulting in the bloodiest race riots in our country.
You can hide behind the term “liberal” all you want, but liberals are the title of the people with the very worst record of abuse of poor people and minorities. But then again, if everyone was successful, who would vote for the Democrats?
Jackie
November 23rd, 2009
7:06 pm
@Debbie Do Right
Funny, how those that want to make a counter-argument seem to have amnesia.
Paul
November 23rd, 2009
7:07 pm
DDR
[[They’re bowing down to a party ]]
serious question: where else are they going to go? The Democratic Party doesn’t want them. So what are they to do?
@@
Okay, I gotta ask (not you, but thanks for the platform): where’s the proof Iran wants nukes, huh? Where’s the INTELLIGENCE we can believe? Why the long drumroll for war? Why haven’t all the diplomatic options been exhausted? AND: why are we going to war with a country that never attack us?!!?
Recycling questions libs hurled at Bush & co is so… lazy? Easy?
md
November 23rd, 2009
7:08 pm
**Wouldn’t you want your product to be manufactured by the most productive and best educated work force in the world?**
Unions actually work against this principle, not for it. Union contracts don’t allow for the firing of dead wood until the discipline process is exhauted, sometimes years. That is hardly the climate for having the “best and brightest”.
Jackie
November 23rd, 2009
7:08 pm
@md
You use of truism and anecdotal proof does not make your point valid.
You work ethic was good and so was those who worked at the location location for many years, at least according to management.
Jackie
November 23rd, 2009
7:10 pm
@md
You want to extract an element of your observation to extrapolate that to the entire operation. I believe it to be not a valid comparison.
Hillbilly Deluxe
November 23rd, 2009
7:10 pm
DDR @ 7:02
Small correction, the Doraville plant was a GM plant but it was one of GM’s most efficient plants in the country. The same was true of the Ford plant in Hapeville. It was number one in quality for years on end.
Hillbilly Deluxe
November 23rd, 2009
7:11 pm
In 34 years on the line, Daddy never had a workman’s comp claim, including when he stuck the pnuematic screw driver in his hand. Bandaged and back to work in about 30 minutes. He also has tinitinits (sp?) and can’t hear himself f*rt because they had no ear protection until a couple years before he retired. (I knew a lot of the guys he worked with and none of them can hear theirselves f*rt either.) And he’s still a member of the UAW and still pays his dues every year, even though he’s long retired
md
November 23rd, 2009
7:12 pm
“You use of truism and anecdotal proof does not make your point valid.”
Thanks Jackie, but I’ll take my experiences and inner knowledge over what I read any day.
@@
November 23rd, 2009
7:12 pm
7 days and ElBaradei is out (thank gawd). I wonder who’s gonna take his place?
Hillbilly Deluxe
November 23rd, 2009
7:13 pm
I am so proud; my first moderated post. I think it was the word, f*rt that got me.
Nothing Is Free
November 23rd, 2009
7:13 pm
jackie
Because Americans want to buy American Cars. I still own one, but I can’t drive it because it has almost 100,000 miles on it and it is falling apart and the toyota that I just traded in had almost 300,000 miles on it.
Back when other countries had to assemble cars by hand, like we do here, we were very competitive. Then in about 1980, they all started converting their assembly lines to robotics and that required a good education for the much fewer employees. The UAW would not allow that to happen here so Detroit went away.
Take a walk through the Toyota Plants in Tennessee or the BMW plants in S.C. and see how the cars are assembled. they are light years ahead of the way we do it. Ford is doing much better because of the robotic technology that they use in the South and off-shore. If you buy a Ford, you are probably not buying an American car.
md
November 23rd, 2009
7:14 pm
“You want to extract an element of your observation to extrapolate that to the entire operation. I believe it to be not a valid comparison.”
And that is your right (not necessarily correct).
Ain’t this country great.
Nothing Is Free
November 23rd, 2009
7:19 pm
Hillbilly Deluxe
**Doraville plant was a GM plant but it was one of GM’s most efficient plants in the country.**
What? No it wasn’t. It was the smallest plant in operation for the last ten years it was in service. That made it the most dangerous and the most likely to produce cars that had to be recalled. It was UAW, through and through and now it is nothing but yet another empty group of buildings.
DebbieDoRight
November 23rd, 2009
7:19 pm
Jackie: Not amnesia per se…….just “selective” memory!
Paul: They/We can create a viable THIRD party. It’s time to move on. (get it? moveon.org!!)
NIF: Liberals always claim to be concerned about helping the minorities while they fight against vouchers, the only attempt at improving their schools since the Republicans pushed busing in order to evenly distribute opportunities back in the 70s, resulting in the bloodiest race riots in our country.
REPUBLICANS pushed busing in order to evenly distribute opportunities? I must have my history mixed up — I could’ve sworn it was the dems who pushed for equal rights. I keep remembering LBJ signing that Voter Rights Act and the majority of the Equal Opportunity laws coming from his administration………..
Jackie
November 23rd, 2009
7:19 pm
@NIF
The union members do not design those cars.
As for American cars, if you will recall, European and Japanese cars used to be laughingstocks.
American companies designed in obsolescence for many years.
In Europe, Ford is the best selling car because they designed their cars to last and be stylish. Why have cars made for the American market been so bad? Do you think it was the union worker that cause this problem?
@@
November 23rd, 2009
7:21 pm
Hillbilly Deluxe:
I have/had two neighbors…father and son, who both worked for Ford’s Hapeville plant. The father was like yours, the son would draw unemployment arranged by the company, then when that ran out, Ford would pay up to 80…90% of his pay. All the while, he was running a body repair business out of his garage. He was a painter at Ford. This would go on for months at a time. The money he got from that went into a Wells Fargo safe in his attic.
The work ethic of people like your Dad, and young workers now are very different.
Jackie
November 23rd, 2009
7:21 pm
@md
Of course you will; if you don’t believe in you, who will?
You are entitled to your own opinion, you are not entitled to your set of facts.
And the beat goes on.
@@
November 23rd, 2009
7:23 pm
Oh, and the money the son made was cash only…unreported income.
Nothing Is Free
November 23rd, 2009
7:25 pm
Jackie
it isn’t the design of the cars, it is the manufacturing process. Have you ever heard the expression: never buy a car that was built on a Monday or a Friday? Robots don’t vary the quality of their work depending on the amount of alcohol they drink on the weekend.
You keep ignoring the robot factor. A simple Toyota Corolla has every single nut attached to a specific torque. They will not vary that if they are distracted, because they are never distracted. We are in the 21st century. We either start building our cars like we are in this century or we see what happens.
Hillbilly Deluxe
November 23rd, 2009
7:27 pm
@@
I had cousins who were painters at Ford. They were out of a job though when they started dipping the cars instead of spraying them.
That’s one thing automation leads to. If people are laid off by a car company, they aren’t likely to ever buy another of that company’s cars. So you lay off a worker, you’re laying off a cutomer too (and probably their relatives won’t buy either).
And another little known fact, in the 40’s and early 50’s, if you worked at the Ford plant, if you drove a non-Ford to work, you were likely to be fired on the spot.
DebbieDoRight
November 23rd, 2009
7:27 pm
Ok I got the FORD plant and the GM plant confused!! GM was the one in Doraville. Sorry for that.
md: found this article about unions/management (auto) from 2005 — thought it might interest you on how much/many concessions the union has given to management over the past few years…
The United Auto Workers did not respond to the Wall Street Journal story. Since the mid-1970s, the UAW has collaborated with the Big Three automakers in the destruction of hundreds of thousands of auto jobs to boost profits and help US automakers better compete with their international rivals. After agreeing to an unprecedented cut in health care benefits for GM workers, the UAW is currently negotiating similar agreements with Ford and Chrysler.
With the job cuts by Ford, GM and the earlier announcement that bankrupt auto parts maker Delphi would eliminate 24,000 positions, the US auto industry is on track to meet, or possibly surpass, the 2001 record of 133,686 job cuts in one year, said Challenger, Gray & Christmas Inc., an employment consulting firm.
The massive destruction of workers� jobs and living standards�which numbers alone do little to convey�belies the glowing reports from the Bush administration and the media that the US economy is rolling ahead. On Friday, the US Labor Department reported that unemployment held steady at 5 percent in November and that the economy had recovered from the dislocations of Hurricane Katrina. �Our economy continues to gain strength and momentum,� President Bush claimed at a White House appearance.
Pardon me, I just couldn’t resist a little “bush bashing” while I was at it. Sorry.
Hillbilly Deluxe
November 23rd, 2009
7:30 pm
A simple Toyota Corolla has every single nut attached to a specific torque.
So does every other vehicle made. The pnuematic wrenches are set to a specified torque, whether they are using a robot or a human. Been that way for years and years.
Nothing Is Free
November 23rd, 2009
7:33 pm
DebbieDoRight
We lost a lot of buggy makers when the automobile came along. It’s a very sad thing but when automation results in a much better product, in order to compete in an international market, we have to adapt. So we see what happened to Detroit when the UAW insist that we build cars like they built the model T. So which is better, a highly skilled much smaller work force that is turning out a world class product or empty buildings and downtowns that are crime infested ghost towns?
@@
November 23rd, 2009
7:35 pm
Hillbilly Deluxe:
My neighbor, the son (since moved) opted to take a huge severance package. He’s operating several small businesses now. The entire time he was union, he voted Democrat. Now that he’s on his own, he votes Republican.
His daughter and my daughter are the best of friends. He gets my goad, and I his.
He used to tell me that if I were his wife, he’d straighten my azz out. “Oh really?”….I’d say.
“And if you were my husband, there wouldn’t be a stash in the attic about which I knew nothing.” He’d then respond with….”I like you @@, you’re a lot of fun?”
Nothing Is Free
November 23rd, 2009
7:37 pm
Hillbilly Deluxe
**So does every other vehicle made. **
Simply not true. theoretically, that might be true if every single worker used the wench the same way. Harley Davidson motorcycles had bolts that would come loose in their transmissions until the plants started buying foreign made trannies that were made by robots. Now they build almost the entire bikes with automation and they are again, good bikes that don’t fall apart.
.
@@
November 23rd, 2009
7:37 pm
Oh, and Hillbilly? The guy I’m talkin’ ’bout buys nothing but Ford — some kinda discount program.
DebbieDoRight
November 23rd, 2009
7:39 pm
NIF according to statements AND to a few articles on the demise of Ford, BAD PLANNING and implementation was the cause of Ford’s problems. Not the Union or lack of automation:
The plant closings are expected to be just one part of a major shake-up of Ford, which announced it was reducing production after its US sales fell by 15 percent in November, the worst of any automaker. The company saw a 52 percent decline in sales of its highly profitable Ford Explorer SUV, despite an extensive redesign of the vehicle. Ford once sold as many as 400,000 Explorers a year, according to the Wall Street Journal, and ran two Explorer plants on overtime. This year, it will do well to sell more than 240,000�a single plant�s worth.
http://www.jobbankusa.com/News/Layoffs/layoffs120305a.html
Hillbilly Deluxe
November 23rd, 2009
7:41 pm
@@
There’s bad apples anywhere. I had 7 or 8 relatives that worked in car plants, most at Ford but some at GM too. Had one who worked at the old Ford plant down on Ponce DeLeon in the 20’s. People just don’t know what they went through. I remember Daddy talking about how for years they had no fans, (and it gets hot in there for those who have never been through), and one of the welders was of course soaking wet with sweat. His welding cord was frayed and he’d been trying to get them to give him a new one. He inadvertantly drug it across his lap and was electrocuted. That was in the late 40’s. The old plant closed down around the start of WWII and the Hapeville plant was started up shortly after the war.
Rightwing Troill
November 23rd, 2009
7:42 pm
I worked in NYC for most of the 90’s, building and installing espresso bars in some of the most historic bldgs there. Had about 6 projects get buried in the world trade center, put an espresso bar in the empire state, two in at rock center, one in gramercy park, and so on…
I experienced the best and the worst of the unions.
Good: quality workmanship, clean, don’t take a lot of personal breaks for phone calls and to smoke cigs.
Bad: If your working in some of the area’s that I’m talking about, you will need to make sure you have local union representation. We actually had a union carpenter, who was not working on our job he was just walking by, come in to check to make sure we had enough locals on the site, we did not. The next day two lawyer looking guys showed up and “negotiated” a short term union contract for the duration of the week. Union reps dress REALLY nice, probably had shoes on that cost more than all the clothes in my closet put together. Oh and our first foray into the WTC, when the trucks showed up, all the trades gathered outside the trucks, and the electricians unloaded the extension cords, and immediately told us we could not use those, they would have to make cords for us to use. Then the rest of the unload proceeded with the plumbers unloading plumbing, electricians unloading electrical, riggers unloading anything that resembled heavy equipment, etc…
It took 3 times as long to unload those trucks because we were not allowed to touch anything, and the trades all had to unload thier own materials…
Then there was break at 9:30, 12:00, and 2:00, didn’t matter if the building was burning, the time to put the fire out was after the break…
It’s much better up there now, but the historic properties are still firmly in the grasp of the unions.
I would still trade those union guys for the white trash you find down here working. Personal phone calls all day long, missed work for visits to the probation office, I actually had a guy blow off two days of work because his chinchillas had babies… (he don’t work here no more). I suppose if I supplied them internet connections and computers in the shop they probably spend thier days on this here blog…
AmVet
November 23rd, 2009
7:42 pm
“You do support the party of George Wallace and the party that founded the second KKK.”
NIF is that a question or a statement of fact?
I hope for your sake you unintentionally omitted the question mark.
Hillbilly Deluxe
November 23rd, 2009
7:43 pm
@@
I don’t know about the discount programs for people who took buyouts. They have a plan for current employees and the Z plan is for retirees. Ford didn’t have those until the 80’s though, before that you went to the dealer and haggled like everybody else.
Dusty
November 23rd, 2009
7:45 pm
Disgusting still….now the Supreme Court is full of white racists. Closed minds with but a single thought..
———————————————————-
Thank you , Paul, no boubon but I might try some Manischevitz which I now have for the holidays. Good stuff!!
Oops, I am missing Lehrer News Hour..