We can’t keep going on like this….
Sooner or later, the piper demands to be paid:
With the national debt now topping $12 trillion, the White House estimates that the government’s tab for servicing the debt will exceed $700 billion a year in 2019, up from $202 billion this year, even if annual budget deficits shrink drastically. Other forecasters say the figure could be much higher.
In concrete terms, an additional $500 billion a year in interest expense would total more than the combined federal budgets this year for education, energy, homeland security and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.
The potential for rapidly escalating interest payouts is just one of the wrenching challenges facing the United States after decades of living beyond its means.
NOTE: I’m on vacation this week, so posting will be a little lighter than normal. As you might have noticed….
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690 comments Add your comment
Paul
November 23rd, 2009
11:58 am
sfd 11:51
Only in my imagination!
md
November 23rd, 2009
11:58 am
A family has no money and is pinching pennies to pay the bills. They are in debt 2x what they bring in. Suddenly, the roof starts to leak, do they 1) pull together enough money to patch the roof or 2) take out a loan equal to what they bring in to put on a new roof.
I’ll give you a hint as to which one our gov’t is doing.
Gale
November 23rd, 2009
11:58 am
That’s the problem with bribery, isn’t it Paul. Once you start handing out bribe money, it is real hard to stop.
AmVet
November 23rd, 2009
11:59 am
The cultural and intellectual dumbing down of America is irrefutable. Two great books on the topic – The Closing of the American Mind by Allan Bloom and Cultural Illiteracy by E.D. Hirsch – ae worth reading. I bought and read both in 1987. And have been lamenting the situation ever since.
And I always am perplexed at how the blanket indictment of how the “government” fails to educate our children. The model has changed little since I was WELL educated via public schools. Of course it has NOTHING to do with the students themselves, does it? NO, we couldn’t credit them in the slightest with their own lack of desire, focus and effort. And of course, it has NOTHING to do with the parents of such children who marginally value education. Nor entire communities who see education as brainwashing via “evil liberals” who proffer evolution over Adam and Eve. And who are more knowledgeable about Dancing with the Stars than about their own republic.
Nope, it is always the “government”. And the fault always lie with them.
And this condition and willful ignorance makes the bulk of the American populace even easier prey for the concentrated wealth and power of today’s American oligarchs and plutocrats.
Remember when cooking the books was considered criminal behavior and not a model of business excellence?
Remember when economic justice was not just a throw away concept?
Remember when the phrase “business ethics” was not an oxymoron?
So, to view this current situation in America in such striking McCartyesque terms is to me laughably outdated and woefully incapable of resolving the real problems…
The answer is there is too much power and too much wealth in too few hands and the few control our government and the few create the problems and the injustices for the many and have less and less interest in doing anything about it because they can get away with it. ~Ralph Nader, 1996
DoggoneGA
November 23rd, 2009
11:59 am
“bribe the public with the public’s money.”
Here’s something to think about: ALL politicians try to bribe the public with the public’s money…regardless of what political system you live under. Government might print money, but ultimately it does not generate money. The value of the money rests on the productivity of the people, and it comes to the government in the form of taxes of one sort or another. So the any politician, or government, has nothing BUT the people’s money to “bribe” them with.
Dusty
November 23rd, 2009
12:00 pm
AmVet,
You seem stuck on misrepresenting Katrina. You think corporate America slighted the storm stricken people of New Orleans. Corporate America? Then you say people there were neglected because they were poor. Rubbish!!
The people of New Orleans were blighted by sorry local government, county government and then their own governor.who first refused federal help and then asked for it two days later, a procdure for help that has to followed with government.
Since then the American people have spent millions helping the people there. I don’t believe anybody was chosen for help by their standard of living or income. Help came to everybody that could be reached quickly and needed it.. That help continues with the people of New Orleans..
Now officials in New Orleans think they will sue the Corps of Engineers because they could not correctly asess the effects of a great hurricane!! Nor could the Corps stop water from running down hill. Why not sue Mother Nature? More money from Americans for a few.
So AmVet, do tell us how the evil Corporations of America dumped poor people and did not help them. You must know. You have repeated that claim so often.
Normal
November 23rd, 2009
12:03 pm
Gale, I honestly don’t know. I just thought the quote might say something about the healthcare Bill. But if there is no more Republic, what WOULD be left in it’s place? Interesting tidbit to mull over…
AmVet
November 23rd, 2009
12:05 pm
WASHINGTON (CNN) — A congressional report to be released this week slams the government’s response to Hurricane Katrina, calling it a “failure of leadership” that left people stranded when they were most in need.
“Our investigation revealed that Katrina was a national failure, an abdication of the most solemn obligation to provide for the common welfare,” the report said. “At every level — individual, corporate, philanthropic and governmental — we failed to meet the challenge that was Katrina.
The report is the result of a Republican 11-member House select committee that investigated the response to Katrina at the local, state and federal levels.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/02/13/katrina.congress/index.html
Disgusted
November 23rd, 2009
12:09 pm
There are other ways to reform hc without reinventing the wheel.
We’re all ears! Let’s hear them.
For eight long years Republicans controlled the White House. For six of those years, Republicans controlled Congress. During all that time, not one Republican Congressman or senator even suggested a practical way to get health insurance for people who couldn’t afford it. What we got instead were diatribes against illegal aliens and “welfare queens”.
The American people finally had enough. They turned the controls over to the Democrats. And now that you’re bent over and about to receive what’s coming to you, you tell us that “there are other ways to reform hc without reinventing the wheel.”
The truth is that you don’t give a tinker’s d@mn about how many people die or suffer because of the lack of affordable healthcare. It’s all about you and your wallet. If you indeed had a way to reform healthcare and cared enough to do it, you would have brought it up by now.
DoggoneGA
November 23rd, 2009
12:10 pm
“you would have brought it up by now”
Not just brought it up…DONE it
@@
November 23rd, 2009
12:21 pm
‘Ya know, AmVet, your guy Nader is worth millions. How much did he donate to Katrina victims? Your one-tract mind defeats you. You’re against the R&D parties…you’re against the corporations…that leaves the people and too many of them lack education. You like the idea of being their sole source of education here. Such an ego, yours!
Corporations stepped in enmasse to help Katrina victims
In fact, the Pew Research Center found that 54% of Americans agree that, “when something is run by the government, it is usually inefficient and wasteful.” He points out that ‘the efforts by corporations in the wake of the New Orleans tragedy appeared organized and responsive — ‘in contrast to the bumbling on every level of government.’
Boogers for the Children Fund
November 23rd, 2009
12:21 pm
The idiots of Katrina, when instructed to do so, refused to leave. So they got what they wanted. Now that they have gotten their just desserts its, AS USUAL, someone elses fault.
The dullards and bums of society want to drag everyone down to their lazy level.
Boogers for the Children Fund
November 23rd, 2009
12:23 pm
Seems an inconvenient truth as turned out to be an inconvenient *POOT*.
http://globalwarminghoax.wordpress.com/category/an-inconvenient-truth/
getalife
November 23rd, 2009
12:29 pm
Spending freeze, layoff Congress until debt is paid, audit the government for fraud, build more fed prisons.
md
November 23rd, 2009
12:30 pm
“The truth is that you don’t give a tinker’s d@mn about how many people die or suffer because of the lack of affordable healthcare. It’s all about you and your wallet. If you indeed had a way to reform healthcare and cared enough to do it, you would have brought it up by now.”
Good job Disgusted. Keep looking at that short term picture, it will take you far.
This bill as written will add unsustainable debt to the US books, debt we can not afford. Looking long term vs your shortsigthed partisan view, we end up screwing 300 million vs the 15 million I don’t give a tinkers damn about.
Try looking at the problem as it exists vs your one sided partisan problem. News flash – it doesn’t matter how the car got to the edge of the cliff, what matters is keeping it from going over.
mm
November 23rd, 2009
12:30 pm
Same old ignorance from the righties. ZZZZZZZzzzzzzzz
md
November 23rd, 2009
12:33 pm
And Mr Disgusted, if you would care to go back and do a little research you will find that I hold both parties accountable for the mess we are currently in as they both contributed to the outcome. Unfortunately, you must tend to look at things with a slanted view from the side.
Dusty
November 23rd, 2009
12:36 pm
AmVet,.
Sorry but no cigar. The only report I have read is the number of millions spent on storm damaged people and territory. It is enormous. If EVERYBODY failed to meet the challenge of Katrina as presented in this report,, then it is possible that as long as people build in places below water level, there can be no total restoration even with giant MONEY giveaways or good guidance.
The recognition that some things cannot be “born again” requires a logical perception. I have seen that lack of perception in reports coming from Congress, even in 2006.
DebbieDoRight
November 23rd, 2009
12:37 pm
My republican friends just wondering……………..where was all this concern when the past administration, (who shall remain nameless), was getting trillion dollar loans yearly from China? How did we expect to pay that back? What about the time when the past administration doled out all those stimulus checks, (this was between the years of 2003 and 2007), trying to get americans to buy, buy, buy our way out of trouble? I wonder why we were being bribed and buttered up if there weren’t any problems? What about the time the past administration decided that we didn’t need to raise taxes to pay for two wars? Remember when they said that the oil fields of Iraq would be able to pay for that war? How did that work out? What about the time the past administration, six months into its first term, wiped out a budget surplus that the previous administration, (who shall remain nameless also) had left behind? And I can’t exactly recall, but can you remember who originally said that “Budgets Don’t Matter”, and everyone in that elephant party applauded and said that was correct and that paying down the deficit wasn’t as important as cutting taxes for the wealthy? (who, if i recall correctly are supposedly the ones who are upholding america — although recently we’ve found out that a good majority of them have been witholding from america and using foreign countries to hide their funds instead of paying taxes on them to revamp a failing economy), do you remember that? Didn’t anyone notice then that the country was spinning out of control? A first year economy student could’ve told you that if you borrow trillions of dollars from a country and you have no way of paying it back that you’re going to be in deep doo-doo. OR if you have two wars, at least have a way to pay for them (since you’re not going to raise taxes on the rich). OR if you get surplus funds, PAY DOWN YOUR DEBT FIRST, not use it to extend great tax breaks for people who already pay less taxes then the middle class, and still hide their money so that their taxes will be negligible.
But of course, economist, even first year ones, wasn’t running the country. It was the previous administration who got us into a bigger pile of sh##t then any other in history, cheered and applauded on by their elephant party, (you know the ones — they claim to be “fiscally conservative” but wiped away a surplus in less than a year, in 8+ years of control [six years = Senate under Clinton PLUS 6 years under Bush, 8 years = House under Bush, 8 years = Presidency] did not bring down the deficit not ONE CENT, but managed to triple it); yes they were cheered on by the “fiscally conservatives” and did not veer one inch from the party line of “All is well, move along, there’s nothing to see here”; when our financial house was in turmoil. NOW however, it seems that they’ve come out of their “sleeping beauty” type coma and have suddenly remembered the word budget. It seems just a weeeee bit hypocritical to the average eye and just a tad bit self righteous after 8+ years of f@king everything up that now that party of the elephants are pretending to care about anything that isn’t connected to them getting re-elected. Funny isn’t it?
Boogers for the Children Fund
November 23rd, 2009
12:37 pm
The truth is that you don’t give a tinker’s d@mn about how many people die or suffer because of their own laziness. It’s all about the lazy bums who refuse to do anything for themselves except blame. If the bums and members of ebenezer church cared they would protest against baby-mamas and bums, butt they too are on the take.
AmVet
November 23rd, 2009
12:39 pm
@@, your insistence on speaking for me and others here makes discussions with you almost impossible. (…you’re against the corporations…”)
You will seemingly never grasp this simple over-arching concept – you are not allowed to speak for me.
You are not allowed to put words in my mouth.
Not now. Not ever.
And yet, no matter how many times you’ve been admonished by myself and others here for this inexcusable practice, you still refuse to stop.
Which is a shame, because buried underneath that unfounded presumptiveness (is that a real word?) is a lot of otherwise good material and info…
Paul
November 23rd, 2009
12:41 pm
Uh-oh…. so much for the ‘the organization’s good, we just have a few bad apples’ defense…
“Breaking: San Diego ACORN Document Dump Scandal”
http://biggovernment.com/2009/11/23/breaking-san-diego-acorn-document-dump-scandal/
Joan
November 23rd, 2009
12:43 pm
Jay, this is what the conservatives have been saying all along. We can’t go on spending money we don’t have. So we need to stop it now–and stop it by NOT passing that idiot health care bill, and NOT granting amnesty to a bunch of illegals who won’t contribute nearly enough to support themselves, and NOT passing cap and trade. Let’s get fiscally responsible here before we implode.
Paul
November 23rd, 2009
12:43 pm
DDR
Hi there! How’s the little niece?
Regarding the post: I’ve read variations of that. It has validity. But really, how about a change of gears congratulating them on finally seeing the light and holding them to that standard, regardless of the party in power?
AmVet
November 23rd, 2009
12:46 pm
Dusty at 12:36,
True.
But it does not alter the points I made…
And I will not stop advocating for economic justice – righteousness, equitableness, or moral rightness – in America…
Dusty
November 23rd, 2009
12:48 pm
mm 12:30
Same old blind adoration from the lefties. (But a few are beginning to open their eyes in shocked disbelief.)
AmVet
November 23rd, 2009
12:53 pm
Re, Disgusted’s diatribe at 12:09, take out the hyperbolic first two sentences in that last paragraph and I believe not a single Republican here can dismantle the fundamental argument.
At all…
DebbieDoRight
November 23rd, 2009
12:54 pm
Hey Paul!!! the niece is BEAUTIFUL!! And she’s such a sweet girl! I can hold her all day and she never whimpers, cries or squirms!! She’s a sweetie! My friend from Nigeria, Ami, taught me how to wrap a kujua (sp) around me in order for me to carry her around on my back hands free. It works pretty well, although I have bought one of those “cudly” things that they have in stores in order to carry her around. She likes it when she can hear your heartbeat, and I think it’s a really better than those plastic carrier things that wear your arm down after 50 seconds of lugging it around.
OK to answer your question, NO — I don’t think they deserve ANY CREDIT for “finally seeing the light”; if they’re seeing of the light is only because they want to be obstructionists and want revenge for loosing the elections. It looks too much like “bad/sour apples” to me then any real idea or hope for any type of direction or change. If they TRULY wanted to bring forth a better America, why, when they had the chance, did they totally ABUSE every vestige of power that they were given? Why this “sudden change of heart” now?
No, to me it’s like the husband who got cheating, or the killer who’s convicted, NOW they’re sorry; but their only sorry that they got caught, not at what they did in the first place.
md
November 23rd, 2009
12:54 pm
DDR,
There are many of us that protested then just as loudly as we are protesting now. What I see in your post is finger pointing of blame vs what to do about the problem. And no, the past administration didn’t do it on its own, just about every past administration contributed to the mess as they put policies/programs on the books that are now contributing to the mess.
Anybody that thinks this party or that party created the problem is doing themselves an injustice. The mess is a giant puzzle years in the making, it wasn’t created in just the last 8 years.
I’ll repeat, it doesn’t matter what was done in the past or by whom, what matters is recognizing that we are a broke country with unsustainable debt and spending at the rate we are is not going to fix that.
stands for decibels
November 23rd, 2009
12:55 pm
Perhaps a different perspective on this particular NYTimes article might be welcome.
In Just a Decade the U.S. Interest Burden Could Be as High as It Was in 1992!!!!!!!
That might not sound scary to most people, but this was the punch line of a front page NYT news story that included all sorts of unsupported assertions about the crisis posed by the government debt.
The fourth paragraph asserts that:
“Even as Treasury officials are racing to lock in today’s low rates by exchanging short-term borrowings for long-term bonds, the government faces a payment shock similar to those that sent legions of overstretched homeowners into default on their mortgages.”
No, this is wrong. There is no evidence presented in this article that the rise in interest rates will place the U.S. government in a situation where it will be unable to pay its bills and no one cited in this article makes such a claim.
Just putting it out there; thoughts?
mike
November 23rd, 2009
12:56 pm
AmVet –
“take out the hyperbolic first two sentences in that last paragraph and I believe not a single Republican here can dismantle the fundamental argument.”
What argument? That Republicans don’t “give a tinker’s d@mn about how many people die or suffer because of the lack of affordable healthcare”?
That’s not an argument. That is just mindless demagoguery.
DebbieDoRight
November 23rd, 2009
12:56 pm
Joan: Jay, this is what the conservatives have been saying all along. We can’t go on spending money we don’t have. So we need to stop it now
All along, or since November 2008 when they lost the election?
Joey
November 23rd, 2009
12:56 pm
AmVet:
In Jay’s previous string, downstairs if you prefer, you had a 10:28 a.m. post where you denied having commented about “Legitimate Conservative”. You stated there that I began that subject in my 9:37.
Please go back and read TW’s 9:31 response to you.
What could this mean?
@@
November 23rd, 2009
12:58 pm
AmVet, I offered a response to your admonishment of me. It’s held up in moderation.
jay? You wanna turn it loose…
there’s no justification for holding it other than its quality in snark.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm!
November 23rd, 2009
12:59 pm
If George Washington were alive today and attended a session of the 111th Congress, he would vomit and then go about trying to gather his militia army back together.
We have another king and his court of fools that needs to be rebelled against.
Don’t Tread On Me, moonbats!
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm!
November 23rd, 2009
1:00 pm
Hairy Reed is NOT what our founding fathers had in mind.
AmVet
November 23rd, 2009
1:01 pm
That I quoted you who quoted TW.
You insisted I used the term. I did not…
But this deflection over a minor point is of no real concern to me.
I defer to YOUR adjectives, nouns and verbs…
And I still beg the original question…
No, mike. This argument:
For eight long years Republicans controlled the White House. For six of those years, Republicans controlled Congress. During all that time, not one Republican Congressman or senator even suggested a practical way to get health insurance for people who couldn’t afford it. What we got instead were diatribes against illegal aliens and “welfare queens”.
The American people finally had enough. They turned the controls over to the Democrats. And now that you’re bent over and about to receive what’s coming to you, you tell us that “there are other ways to reform hc without reinventing the wheel.”
“If you indeed had a way to reform healthcare and cared enough to do it, you would have brought it up by now.”
It is a fair question…
mike
November 23rd, 2009
1:02 pm
ddr –
“All along, or since November 2008 when they lost the election?”
Actually, lots of conservative criticized that spending. That is a big reason why many conservatives turned away from the GOP.
Paul
November 23rd, 2009
1:02 pm
DDR
That contact is so important when they’re young. And that sweet personality? Ever notice how many firsters have that? It’s nature’s way to fake the parents out into having more! Then come the……!!
A good point about the political calculation. But one day the pendulum will swing and I will have a fun time reading as you and others remind the new majority of their past postings!
AmVet
November 23rd, 2009
1:03 pm
“…other than its quality in snark.”
No doubt! That is one area where you have demonstrated some mastery!
Mrs. Godzilla
November 23rd, 2009
1:03 pm
OH NOES!
Bad apples throw office waste in wrong place!
Next they’ll steal the election!
EEEKKK!
thomas
November 23rd, 2009
1:03 pm
Debbie,
So is your argument that 2 wrongs make a right?
Who gives a pie if the republicans didn’t complain about spending?
You complained about it then and now you don’t so please tell us all how you are better than they are.
How can spending 800 billion possibly be good for our debt?
When there is no proof that it will be budget neutral, only speculation.
So why were you against spending when republicans were in office but now you are content to spend more at a faster pace than ever in history?
mike
November 23rd, 2009
1:04 pm
DDR –
“Conservatives Criticize Bush on Spending – Medicare Bill Angers Some Allies
By Dana Milbank
Saturday, December 6, 2003; Page A01
Last month’s passage of a Medicare prescription drug benefit that could cost $2 trillion over 20 years, after three years of sharp increases in federal spending, has provoked an unusual barrage of criticism of President Bush from conservative leaders.”
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A40090-2003Dec5?language=printer
getalife
November 23rd, 2009
1:07 pm
Dean: There’s No Real Reform In Health Care Bills
Thank you Mr. Dean. More corporate welfare as usual.
I guess we are all fiscal cons now.
Need a spending and hiring freeze.
Unpaid layoffs for politicians while they audit the fed and prosecute for fraud.
mike
November 23rd, 2009
1:07 pm
AmVet –
“If you indeed had a way to reform healthcare and cared enough to do it, you would have brought it up by now.”
Well you can only take on so many third-rail issues at a time. They did try Social Security reform and immigration reform.
Does the fact that Democrats are not working on those issues now mean they don’t care about them?
DebbieDoRight
November 23rd, 2009
1:07 pm
. It’s all about the lazy bums who refuse to do anything for themselves except blame.
That’s the elephant party’s mantra; “Fiscal And Personal Respnsibility” for someone else.
mike
November 23rd, 2009
1:08 pm
geatalife –
“I guess we are all fiscal cons now.”
Is there anyone out there who does not believe that they are a fiscal conservative?
Paul
November 23rd, 2009
1:12 pm
Mrs. Godzilla
Ah yes, the same response you had to the deleted Cheney emails. So consistent!
md
November 23rd, 2009
1:13 pm
Hey deb, how many jobs did that 800 billion stimulus create? Less than 1 million for sure.
Do you know that if we had given $40,000 to companies directly in exchange for the guarantee of hiring 1 employee we would have created 20 million jobs. Funny how it works when the pork is left out.
Paul
November 23rd, 2009
1:14 pm
getalife
First Dean says the trial lawyers own the Democratic Party, now this.
How soon before Dems fire him?
AmVet
November 23rd, 2009
1:14 pm
They did try Social Security reform and immigration reform.
True, and in my opinion they were as wrongheaded and intransigent as they could be on both. But that is a different matter.
Profligate spending is a disease of both flip sides of the same R&D coin.
The cons justify it via military crusades and corporate welfare.
The libs justify it through misguided entitlements and corporate welfare.
And the rich get richer and the poor get poorer…
mike
November 23rd, 2009
1:16 pm
AmVet –
“True, and in my opinion they were as wrongheaded and intransigent as they could be on both.”
And conservatives feel the same about Dems now, but the “you had your chance” argument is silly.
Yo'momma Obama
November 23rd, 2009
1:16 pm
Just like the Chinese Premier said in the SNL skit, “Bend over Americans and hold your ankles, ’cause Ayatollah Hussein Obama (shouting) IS GOING TO HAVE SEX WITH YOU!!!!!!!
@@
November 23rd, 2009
1:16 pm
Looks like my request to turn the comment loose goes unaddressed.
AmVet:
Do you recall “The Nader Convention” in Colorado….the one where he offered an alternative to the DNC’s? ‘Ya know who was there, other than a bunch of burned-out old hippie types and their young hanger-oners?
Sean Penn and Cindy Sheehan fercryinoutloud. Both big fans of the “HUGO” (remember when I used to call you that?) in Venezuela. Folk singers and rock bands galore.
One band, having come off a tour with “Rage Against the Machine” offered up a little ditty that had this within its lyrics:
“I’m the half-Kenyan from Illinois who’s not running for president this year”
It would appear Nader had his own “birthers” supporting him.
Nader is a racist and capitalist adventure in his own right. He has consistently resisted scrutiny of his own financial records.
It would appear you’re just another useful tool….Nader’s.
md
November 23rd, 2009
1:17 pm
DDR,
Do you believe in helping those that can’t help themselves and those that won’t help themselves? If so, why would you want to be an enabler for those that won’t?
Have you ever heard of an alcoholic being cured from recieving unlimited alcohol?
jt
November 23rd, 2009
1:18 pm
“We can’t keep going on like this….”
As a democrat, Jay is such a budget hawk.
Where is his compassionate liberalism.????
From the 2009 budget——–
* $3.8 million for the Old Tiger Stadium Conservancy in Detroit;
* $1.9 million for the Pleasure Beach water taxi service in Connecticut;
* $1.8 million for swine odor and manure management research in Ames, Iowa;
* $380,000 for a recreation and fairgrounds area in Kotzebue, Alaska;
* $143,000 for the Greater New Haven Labor History Association in Connecticut;
* $95,000 for the Canton Symphony Orchestra Association in Ohio; and
* $71,000 for Dance Theater Etcetera in Brooklyn for its Tolerance through Arts initiative.
The only problem is that our federal government simply doesn’t have enough money. We simply MUST PAY MORE.
As per Mrs. G, TAX ME MORE PLEEEEEEZE.
stands for decibels
November 23rd, 2009
1:18 pm
First Dean says the trial lawyers own the Democratic Party, now this.
How soon before Dems fire him?
Not sure what you mean by that; Dr. Dean’s term as DNC chair ended in Jan. 2009.
@@
November 23rd, 2009
1:20 pm
Oh, and by the way, AmVet.
Sean Penn couldn’t even navitage a flat-bottom boat in NO successfully.
@@
November 23rd, 2009
1:21 pm
Oops! make that navigate.
Paul
November 23rd, 2009
1:24 pm
sfd
Thanks. I read an updated bio – says he was miffed at not being given a position in the Administration. Glad he wasn’t – else we wouldn’t likely hear such candid observations.
@@
You discount a message because of some of the people who agree with the message?!!?
Lessee, Jesus preached and attracted tax collecting unclean traitors, hookers, street people…
DebbieDoRight
November 23rd, 2009
1:25 pm
Paul: Well, I’m hoping for another little niece or nephew, but when I mention my hopes to Julie, for some reason, she gives me the evil eye. I guess it’s because she’s got Irritable Bowel Syndrome or something…………
Thomas: Debbie, so is your argument that 2 wrongs make a right?
No. My argument is “STOP PRETENDING”. Stop lying, obfuscating, and basically rewriting history to make-up something that just didn’t happen. Call a Spade a Spade.
Who gives a pie if the republicans didn’t complain about spending?
All the people who are wondering why NOW they’re complaining!! If you didn’t think “Budgets Mattered” a few years ago, why all of a sudden NOW you do? Seems a bit shady to me.
You complained about it then and now you don’t so please tell us all how you are better than they are.
I still do — perhaps you’ve missed some of my scintillating posts………
How can spending 800 billion possibly be good for our debt?
I’m gonna answer your question with a question. If you have an old car, and you don’t really have the money to buy a new one, and the transmission goes out on the old car, would it be wiser to spend the money that you have to fix the transmission thereby leaving you debt free in the coming months OR would it be wiser to spend the money you DON’T have to finance a new car for an additional 48 to 60 months at 15% interest?
When there is no proof that it will be budget neutral, only speculation.
There was no proof that the Iraqis would “see us as liberators” or allow us to use their oil to pay off our debts, but we fell for that one………
mike: DR – “Conservatives Criticize Bush on Spending – Medicare Bill Angers Some Allies
By Dana Milbank Saturday, December 6, 2003; Page A01
How many republicans eventually VOTED for that bill and how many voted against it? AND did it pass?
AmVet
November 23rd, 2009
1:26 pm
“…but the “you had your chance” argument is silly.”
Why so?
This longstanding and ever worsening situation vis a vis health insurance reform is an American nightmare.
At least 40,000 die every single year needlessly, because they are, in essence, not profitable enough.
Medical expenses are the number one reason for personal bankruptcies and catastrophic losses.
Like the other components of the corporate destruction of capitalism, this was ignored and denied for many years.
Those who did so do not deserve amnesty…
Joey
November 23rd, 2009
1:26 pm
AmVet (1:01):
I did not respond to TW. Both he and I responded to a post by you. I cannot prove this, but it appears to me that the post that TW and I responded to has been modified. You are correct I cannot prove that.
Since I cannot prove it, as a caution in the future any response by me to a post by you will include the time of the post and quote the full remark that you made.
Have a good day.
@@
November 23rd, 2009
1:31 pm
Paul:
I have no use for Nader’s hypocrisy. You are what you eat!
As to your scriptural reference. Government….for me at least….was never intended to assume the role of savior.
Boogers for the Children Fund
November 23rd, 2009
1:34 pm
OboboCare is not needed. Persons need to take responsbiity for their actions or lack thereof. I had an emergency room visit this weekend and its gonna cost a bundle. It is my fault maybe/maybe not. However Booger has incurred said cost and will pay the bill just the same.
Why dont you lazyass democrats learn that something for nothing doesnt exists except in the nothingness of your minds. OH…and OboMao’s.
Normal
November 23rd, 2009
1:35 pm
Instead of all of the finger pointing and both sides saying, “It’s their fault”, what solutions can you offer?
How can one side borrow and spend like a drunken sailor for eight years and not think it would come back to bite us on the tush?
How can the other side promote and expand that spending to unheard of heights?
Without President Bush’s TARP and President Obamas Stimulas package, where would our economy be now?
Is it too late to consider a Healthcare Package because of our national debt? I think so as much as I want it. It is beyond more than we can afford. We have to start to stop spending somewhere.
So, bottom line, let’s have a discussion about what can be done, if anything.
I offer this. Cut military spending on hardware that was designed for the cold war or other conventional wars. Bring our Troops home from Germany and Japan and any other country where they are not needed.
Have a tax that is earmarked for the debt only, by law, insuring that it cannot be pilfered for other reasons. It has to be paid down or defaulted on. I have no idea what a default would have on the global economy, but it couldn’r be good.
DebbieDoRight
November 23rd, 2009
1:36 pm
md: Hey deb, how many jobs did that 800 billion stimulus create? Less than 1 million for sure.
I don’t know….I do know it SAVED many jobs, (police, firemen, etc.); but created…..??? Don’t know for sure. I’ll look it up though ’cause I know you’re gonna hit me with the numbers
Do you know that if we had given $40,000 to companies directly in exchange for the guarantee of hiring 1 employee we would have created 20 million jobs. Funny how it works when the pork is left out.
If we would’ve gave each company $40K, as the banks showed us, they’d have put it into their coffers and used the interest and the tax credit for the next year.
Boogers for the Children Fund
November 23rd, 2009
1:37 pm
“At least 40,000 die every single year needlessly, because they are, in essence, not profitable enough.”
NO…because of bad planning, short-sighted thinking and stupidity. They would rather drive an SUV than pay for medical insurance. They would rather have new defered interest payment furniture from Rooms to Go than live within their means.
TOO BAD!
DebbieDoRight
November 23rd, 2009
1:43 pm
md: DDR, Do you believe in helping those that can’t help themselves and those that won’t help themselves? If so, why would you want to be an enabler for those that won’t?
I believe in helping those who can’t help themselves. Any TRUE christian does. It is one of the dictates that Christ left to his followers and asked them to spread around the world. As for being an enabler, what’s that about?
Have you ever heard of an alcoholic being cured from recieving unlimited alcohol?
Point?
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm!
November 23rd, 2009
1:43 pm
The battle cry for our current crop of “patriots” is Give me freedom or give me 300 million, no checks, cash money.
Dusty
November 23rd, 2009
1:45 pm
AmVet.
Sounds good..”advocating for economic justice – righteousness, equitableness, or moral rightness”.
We have the right and freedom to achieve those things in America. But the government cannot do any more than set the standards as our Constitution does. It does not say that the government will award material things in equal amounts. It only gives us the freedom to achieve for ourselves.
Could it be that you do not recognize Communism, i.e., nobody should be rich or poor but all the same in comunality? Communism may be the cure for economic “justice” but it is the death of personal freedom.
Bosch
November 23rd, 2009
1:46 pm
Oh good Lord, what are we all bitching about now? I know, let’s name one thing we’re thankful for. Andy, you go first.
md
November 23rd, 2009
1:46 pm
“OR would it be wiser to spend the money you DON’T have to finance a new car for an additional 48 to 60 months at 15% interest?”
You must be assuming that new cars don’t break down, but they do. If one has no money, they should spend as little as possible.
getalife
November 23rd, 2009
1:46 pm
Paul,
I was waiting on a dem to stand up tell the truth.
All spending bills are for their donors not the people.
Nothing but corporate welfare and the only way to stop this is a spending freeze.
md
November 23rd, 2009
1:47 pm
“If we would’ve gave each company $40K, as the banks showed us, they’d have put it into their coffers and used the interest and the tax credit for the next year.”
You left out my condition of having to hire an employee – that means no employee, no money, something that didn’t happen under tarp.
DoggoneGA
November 23rd, 2009
1:49 pm
“As for being an enabler, what’s that about?”
If you had said yes to helping those who won’t help themselves, he would have accused you of “enabling” their “laziness” … or something like that.
getalife
November 23rd, 2009
1:51 pm
Yal’ll want to see a bailout check?
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/11/23/9-billion-check-that-save_n_367391.html
9 billion and the execs that collapsed their companies cashed out.
Capitalism?
No, it is fraud and many lawsuits are filed.
Where is the accountability Obama?
Boogers for the Children Fund
November 23rd, 2009
1:52 pm
LOL…all of this concern for ones fellowman when most of these fellowmen only want what you have. Such naive bleeding hearts…LOL.
@@
November 23rd, 2009
1:53 pm
Tell me DDR, do you support Christ’s message being carried into the Muslim world, China…other parts of the world where oppressive governments discourage its entry? If so, then you better be prepared for confrontations such as the one we’re experiencing in the ME.
Our church, and many like it ask for nothing from those in need. We do encourage them to give back somewhere. More often than not, it doesn’t work out that way. The message is given but not carried out beyond the donation.
Jesus also said shake the dust from your sandals and move on to where his message would be received.
There comes that time…
md
November 23rd, 2009
1:53 pm
DDR,
Reread my post and you will note a distinction between “can’t” and “won’t”.
This country needs to wean itself from supporting those that “won’t”.
Do you know that the education system in this country is heavily slanted to help those with little to no income yet the ones it is designed to benefit CHOOSE to ignore it.
They are the “won’ts”.
And the “can’ts” would give anything to trade places with the “won’ts”.
DebbieDoRight
November 23rd, 2009
1:54 pm
Normal So, bottom line, let’s have a discussion about what can be done, if anything.
I offer this. Cut military spending on hardware that was designed for the cold war or other conventional wars. Bring our Troops home from Germany and Japan and any other country where they are not needed. Have a tax that is earmarked for the debt only, by law, insuring that it cannot be pilfered for other reasons. It has to be paid down or defaulted on. I have no idea what a default would have on the global economy, but it couldn’r be good.
Normal, Here are my viewpoints/take on the matter:
a. the first thing we have to do is overhaul Social Security. No one wants to talk about it, but it’s the truth. It has to be revamped, and SOON.
b. Healthcare and Social Security go hand in hand. You can’t really address one without looking at the other.
c. Cut defense spending in HALF. We, as a country, spend more on defense per capita than any other country in the world.
d. BRING THE JOBS BACK!! Instead of propping up other countries economies, let’s start propping up our own. Fine any company who sends jobs overseas.
AmVet
November 23rd, 2009
1:56 pm
Could it be that you do not recognize Communism, i.e., nobody should be rich or poor but all the same in comunality?
I find that model historically repulsive.
Working class Americans, the decent law abiding people that made this country what it is, are being fleeced.
Systematically. And ever more egregiously.
And their incomes, buying power, etc prove it.
There is no legitimate reason that most of the power in this country resides in such relatively few hands.
Save that we, and our proxies in our spineless US Congress, cared so little and were so intentionally uninformed, that we gave WAY TOO MANY of our assets and WAY TOO MUCH sovereignty away.
Gave it away!
And even now there is still a sizable percentage of our populace who refuses to believe the foxes are guarding OUR hen house.
And then King George IV added the ultimate insult to the equation last September. Taxation without representation as he and his socialist buddies tried to bail out capitalism.
And now George Bush II has free reign to feed the corporate masters even more…
md
November 23rd, 2009
1:59 pm
“As for being an enabler, what’s that about?”
“If you had said yes to helping those who won’t help themselves, he would have accused you of “enabling” their “laziness” … or something like that.”
Out of curiosity Dog, do you consider those that refuse to help those that won’t help themselves selfish, or are the ones that won’t help themselves sefhish?
AmVet
November 23rd, 2009
2:00 pm
Excuse me, that should read George Bush III ha free reign.
Either way, W is more of a communist than I…
md
November 23rd, 2009
2:06 pm
“d. BRING THE JOBS BACK!! Instead of propping up other countries economies, let’s start propping up our own. Fine any company who sends jobs overseas.”
It not that easy.
Lets say walmart sells a product made overseas that because of labor costs $5. To do it here because of labor that same product costs $50. Now how many of that product would they sell at $5 vs $50? And it snowballs from there. If they can’t sell it, they don’t need as many employees, or truck drivers, or warehouse workers, etc, etc , etc.
For every high paying job brought back to produce, how many service industry jobs will be eliminated because of the high cost of labor?
It is not a simple solution.
kayaker 71
November 23rd, 2009
2:06 pm
When you are in a hole, quit digging. Runaway spending results in huge deficits. Doesn’t take a degree in Economics to figure that out.
DoggoneGA
November 23rd, 2009
2:08 pm
“Out of curiosity Dog, do you consider those that refuse to help those that won’t help themselves selfish, or are the ones that won’t help themselves sefhish?”
I won’t answer directly. I think the help should be available to any who need and ask for it, but anyone who receives ANY kind of public assitance should have to work for it. They should be in training for a new job, or they should be doing some kind of public work – even if it’s only picking up litter. They could help train others, work with abandoned babies, help counsel the bereaved. WHATEVER they can do…they should have to do to earn their assistance.
But the assistance has to BE there for them if they need it.
DebbieDoRight
November 23rd, 2009
2:09 pm
Bosch: Oh good Lord, what are we all bitching about now? I know, let’s name one thing we’re thankful for. Andy, you go first.
I’m thankful for my family. The whole mixed-up, crazy, interracial cross denominational, lot of them!!
@@: Tell me DDR, do you support Christ’s message being carried into the Muslim world, China…other parts of the world where oppressive governments discourage its entry? If so, then you better be prepared for confrontations such as the one we’re experiencing in the ME.
I do. However, by doing so may constitute a grave risk to the “teller”. In such cases, I believe it is up to the individual to decide if he/she wishes to martyr themselves for their religion. BUT on the other hand, with the invention of the internet, FACEBOOK and MYSPACE — evangelizing might be a little easier.
md: This country needs to wean itself from supporting those that “won’t”. Do you know that the education system in this country is heavily slanted to help those with little to no income yet the ones it is designed to benefit CHOOSE to ignore it. They are the “won’ts”. And the “can’ts” would give anything to trade places with the “won’ts”.
By not educating the “poor” amongst us, we will create an oligarchy, where only a few will have the means and opportunity to advance. History has taught us that these types of power structures can’t sustain itself for long — they usually leads to a revolution or rebellion of some kind. Look at the Russian Revolution, S. Africa, etc.; and you’ll see at some point, the people you are trying to “cut off” will rise up and fight back. By continuously describing ourselves as a “Christian” nation, how can we, in good conscience and keep a straight face while doing it, deny a basic right like education?
md
November 23rd, 2009
2:12 pm
“But the assistance has to BE there for them if they need it.”
Agreed. A safety net vs a handout.
Normal
November 23rd, 2009
2:17 pm
DDR, I think you might have put a finger on part of the problem for me. It has always been said that Social Security was the third rail of politics. Touch it and die. Social security was always self substaining but it has also been pilfered. Law was circumvented and funds used as necessary. Prevent that from happening and SS will take care of itself. Do the same with Medicare and they will be non problems.
I like the defense cuts you suggest, but as I was writing this it occured to me that would lead to job loss, most probably. And, what kind of jobs would we bring back? Manufacturing here can’t compete with foreign plants unless the pay scale was about even. I see no solution coming soon, short of a world war like before.
Bottom line, until we get politicians with the ‘nads to do what has to be done, we are screwed from both sides.
Joey
November 23rd, 2009
2:17 pm
To begin a short list of spending cuts, first go to Wikipedia; United States federal executive departments. Scroll down to the list of 15 Departments, then click on one of them.
I chose Health & Human Services. (Used to be Health, Education and Welfare. Education is independent now.)
Scroll down to the list of Agencies. There are 20 of them with 8 sub-agencies. Then there are 11 Operating Divisions.
See if you can see any evidence of duplication or overlap of services. Any possibility of inefficiences or waste?
Repeat for each of the 15 Departments. No President, no Senator, no Congress-person, no Cabinet member, no Department head, no Political Party leadership is willing to really identify inefficiences and cut cost.
Our course is set for the reef, and I don’t think this ship can be turned. However, that is not sufficient reason to not try.
DebbieDoRight
November 23rd, 2009
2:18 pm
md: It not that easy. Lets say walmart sells a product made overseas that because of labor costs $5. To do it here because of labor that same product costs $50. Now how many of that product would they sell at $5 vs $50? And it snowballs from there. If they can’t sell it, they don’t need as many employees, or truck drivers, or warehouse workers, etc, etc , etc. For every high paying job brought back to produce, how many service industry jobs will be eliminated because of the high cost of labor? It is not a simple solution.
What is the high cost of having NO labor, (not having any workers with sustainable jobs which pays for their rent, food, mortgage etc.)? Houses are sitting empty, people are living on the streets, crime is going up — the costs is too high. If WalMart can’t afford to buy products made in America by American workers, then they need to find a way to afford a fine or additional tax.
md
November 23rd, 2009
2:19 pm
DDR,
I’m not talking about not providing anybody an education, I’m referring to those that have access and CHOOSE to leave the system. These individuals are putting themselves at a disadvantage and then want to count on others to come to their rescue, when all they have to do is CHOOSE to re-enter the system that they chose to withdraw from in the first place. They should be given a choice – reenter the system to better themselves or wallow in their self created misery. People will usually come around if given an ultimatum.
As it is, this country enables instead of issuing ultimatums.
@@
November 23rd, 2009
2:20 pm
DDR:
Iran AND China have both shut down the internet when they feel threatened. The effort was there, but the message didn’t get through.
“““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““““
With Afghanistan looming, everyone needs to keep their eye on Yemen. Iran’s stirring things up against the Saudis. The Saudis are asking the U.S. to intervene.
Iranian students have staged a sit-in at the Foreign Ministry in Tehran to protest the deaths of Yemeni Muslims, IRNA reported Nov. 23. Organizers said the sit-in will last until Nov. 25. Protesters held signs saying “Death to Saudi,” “Death to Israel” and “Death to U.S.” and chanted anti-Saudi slogans. A student representative said the Foreign Ministry should take into consideration the conditions Supreme Leader Ayatollah Ali Khameini has set for direct talks with the United States.
There’s been speculation that the Ayatollah is no longer in charge due to his cancer. The Republican Guard is running things.
‘Ya just never know.
Jackie
November 23rd, 2009
2:25 pm
Unless we bring back our manufacturing base, our economy will not recover.
Manufacturing of goods has a multiplier that can not be equaled, is capital and labor intensive and gives those that participate a greater level of wealth.
We have outsourced practically everything manufacture. We have less than 50% of our own defense needs produced in this country.
Our standard of living can not be advanced based on profits of services. It reaches a point where those services can not be sold and the benefits derived by others stop.
md
November 23rd, 2009
2:27 pm
” If WalMart can’t afford to buy products made in America by American workers, then they need to find a way to afford a fine or additional tax.”
It has nothing to do with walmart affording the products, it has everything to do with the american people affording the products. It is a never ending cycle – as labor goes up, the cost of goods goes up and as the cost of goods goes up people quit buying the products, and when people quit buying the products people lose their jobs.
The key is labor – we can not indefinitely raise wages for entry level jobs – it will never work. We have gotten away from bettering ourselves to move up and instead rely on the gov’t to raise our wages, which actually causes people to lose jobs instead of gain jobs.
Dusty
November 23rd, 2009
2:27 pm
AmVet.
Can’t you realize that some people have more abilities than others? That we are all governed by the smae rules with the same opportunities for advancement. Some take better advatage of that than others. That does not mean they cheat. It means they are able to deliver the expertise it usually takes to get rich. Everybody wealthy did not inherit money. Most made money in legitimate ways.
Some of the richest people in our country came from the working class of America. Do you really think that Buffet and the founder of Microsoft came from rich families? No, they did not. They give away enormous sums but not all that they have. Do you give away all that you have earned?
George Bush tried to protect every citizen in this country from further terrorist attacks. He made war against those he thought would harm us. He suggested alternative programs to Social Security but no one was interested. He promoted a new drug prescription program to help with the cost of medicines for the age group that used them most. He approved TARP funds when economic failure seemed inevitable but it was no trillions giveaway. So you call him George the Bungler, King George, etc., etc.
Sorry, AmVet but you are going for communism, hook, line and sinker. You don’t seem to realize it. That line about “corporate masters” betrays you. It is the usual entrance line for communists. Take from the rich and give to the poor. What happened to your freedom for EVERYBODY, even the rich?
DebbieDoRight
November 23rd, 2009
2:28 pm
Normal a lot of companies (Fortune 1000 and the like); are paying TOO MUCH for healthcare for their employees. THAT’s why it’s cheaper to go overseas and have someone from China make substandard stuff that needs to be recalled in a few months. If we could alleviate some of the healthcare costs, that may alleviate some of the burden of hiring the American Worker
For a long time people have been saying that the factory worker should “retrain” and get a better job in order to be “ready for the new job market”. But let’s be honest here. How many people retrained to become computer programmers, data analysts, engineers, etc. and STILL had their job shipped overseas? Remember IBM who in 2008 had their best and biggest year ever and then in the same sentence told the business world that they were outsourcing 40% of their workforce to India? What’s the worker to do in that instance? How many times can you “retrain” for a job that, once the employer can fiscally do so, can be moved to another country at the employer’s whim?
The Unions used to be blamed for every ill in America; however the people who own the CORPORATIONS are really the ones who are at fault. How many times have we seen the company go down and have to lay people off, while the CEO and the board members get outrageous salaries and bonuses? ENRON wasn’t ran into the ground because of employee salaries; but by the decisions made by the boards running the companies.
Paul
November 23rd, 2009
2:28 pm
@@
The scriptural reference wasn’t intended to justify the role of gov’t as savior. It was, I thought, a humorous retort. See, you discounted Nader’s message because yahoos like Penn glommed on to it. So, I said, hey, tax collectors and hookers and street people glommed on to Jesus’s message. Do we reject the message when we don’t like those whom it attracts?
What Nader hypocrisy? I understand he lives pretty cheaply and gives away a significant portion of his earnings each year.
It’s the difference I see between him and Gore. Gore finds a cause, then starts up huge investment funds to profit from his ’solutions.’ Nothing more than a secular religious snake oil salesman, in my nonjudgmental evaluation.
md
November 23rd, 2009
2:32 pm
The unions in this country have driven up the cost of labor to the point that the initial goal of helping the employee has in actuality hurt the employee by driving out jobs.
Jackie – manufacturing here will continue to die if labor costs do not change. People will not buy a $50,000 car when they can get the same car made elsewhere at half the cost.