Ladies and gentlemen, “the best health care system on Earth!”
Stephen Hawking
It’s a good thing that physicist Stephen Hawking was born in Great Britain, with its nationalized health care system. Because if he lived here in the United States, with its gaping holes in health-care coverage, he’d probably be dead or shuttered away in a human warehouse by now.
Just ask Kenny Whitey. He’d tell you all about it.
If he could.
Whitey is a trucker who was seriously injured on the job. Now his workman’s comp company has gone out of business, leaving him and his family out of luck and out of options. As the Gainesville Times reports:
“Overall, Whitey’s medical bills total around $47,000 per month.
“He just started physical therapy three weeks ago. The doctors said that they saw a 2 percent improvement. When you have a brain injury, 2 percent is a lot of improvement and now we don’t have any way to pay for that,” Pat Whitey said.
“The van company that has been transporting him to his appointments isn’t being paid now, and we can’t expect them to keep working for free. And the nurse agency told us last week that we have 14 days to figure out what we’re going to do. Everyone has been holding on, but we just don’t know how we are going to pay for everything.”
(H/T to Hillbilly Deluxe)
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323 comments Add your comment
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm!
November 18th, 2009
7:13 am
In news from the world of universal health care, Mark Wattson, 35, collapsed in pain in the street in Swindon, England, a month after he had his appendix removed.
He was rushed by ambulance to Great Western Hospital, the place where his appendectomy was done and where doctors had released him after assurances that all went well.
This time, Mr. Wattson was told by the same team of doctors that his supposedly removed appendix had burst and that he needed to be readmitted for an emergency appendectomy.
“I couldn’t believe what I was hearing,” said Wattson. “I told these people I had my appendix out just four weeks earlier but there it was on the screen for all to see. I thought: ‘What the hell did they slice me open for in the first place’?” -AmSpec
I report/ you decide.
The government hacks cut you open for no reason or your health insurance fails and you have to apply for medicaid.
Jay
November 18th, 2009
7:25 am
Because that kind of thing NEVER happens here in the US under private care, right Reporter?
Right?
But then there’s this, from New Milford, Conn., to cite just one of way too many examples:
During the 6 1/2 -hour procedure, Dr. Mabasa nicked an iliac artery supplying blood to Kelleher’s legs, and later misdiagnosed the problem when recovery room nurses found her left leg to be pale, numb and pulseless.
Hours passed without medical intervention. And days later, the 59-year-old who loved to garden, roll around on the floor with her dog, Tabitha, and take long walks, was given the grim news: Her leg had been starved for blood too long, and would have to be amputated above the knee.
Although New Milford Hospital recently paid Kelleher $5.25 million for the June 2005 mishap, the hospital did not report the case to the state Department of Public Health as an adverse event. And the state did not investigate Kelleher’s surgery until more than two years later, after the hospital took action on its own to keep Mabasa out of its operating rooms.
During that time, Mabasa botched at least three more operations, state investigators later concluded, including a failed colostomy that ultimately required the surgical removal of a patient’s vagina, according to health department documents.
The truth is that medical mistakes, which are tragic and happen in all kinds of systems, have nothing to do with how we insure, or do not insure, the cost of medical treatment.
Rightwing Troll
November 18th, 2009
7:27 am
They obviously were just harvesting a kidney for resale…
BWAhahahaha…. ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
Jay should know better by now… Andy has RSS feeds of nutsack sites to cut and paste from instantaneously when needed… and he avails himself of them regularly…
ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww
Normal
November 18th, 2009
7:29 am
MR. PRESIDENT, BRING OUR TROOPS HOME NOW. THEN WE CAN TALK ABOUT HEALTHCARE.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm!
November 18th, 2009
7:30 am
“I would start cutting taxes and allowing our small businesses to keep more of what they are earning, more of what they are producing, more of what they own and earn so that they could start reinvesting in their businesses and expand and hire more people,” she told Walters. “Not punishing them by forcing health care reform down their throats; by forcing an energy policy down their throats that ultimately will tax them more and cost them more to stay in business. Those are backassward ways of trying to fix the economy.”-Sarah Palin
She shoots, she scores!
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm!
November 18th, 2009
7:33 am
bookman- Then why doesn’t the democrat health care proposal address those issues?
And are you saying that Kenny Whitey has no other options, that he will just die in the street?
Really?
Rightwing Troll
November 18th, 2009
7:35 am
I’ve owned a small business for 7 years now. My taxes haven’t gone up at all, and the healthcare debate doesn’t affect me.
How’s your small business doing?
ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww ewwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwwww ewwwwwwwwwwwwww
Rightwing Troll
November 18th, 2009
7:36 am
There’s definately some “scoring” going on over at the Palin’s house…
Rightwing Troll
November 18th, 2009
7:38 am
The fact that I own a small business is why I only get on here in the mornings (before work), unlike the nutsack trolls who can somehow stay camped out here all day long every day… Plus I have a life…
Normal
November 18th, 2009
7:41 am
Andy is a special case. His glass isn’t half empty, and his glass isn’t half full. His glass is broken.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm!
November 18th, 2009
7:43 am
bookman- Something in the spam can?
Vinny
November 18th, 2009
7:43 am
The heart bleeds, Jay. It’s a typical liberal ploy – bring out one or two instances of mismanagement and cry out that the system as a whole needs to be demolished and rebuilt. Using that logic, the insurance company should have built me a new house instead of just having the roof replaced during that bad hail storm.
Meanwhile, the government health agency is trying to tell women that they don’t need to have mammograms before they reach age 50. They are just trying to prepare these folks for the rationing that is sure to come under the Dems heath plan.
Americans have overwhemingly stated that they don’t want what Obama and the libs in his administration are trying to jam down our throats.
Note to AJC editor – This is the type of writing that is keeping people from subscribing to your newspaper.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm!
November 18th, 2009
7:43 am
Lord Help Us- Notice how I pay no attention to you whatsoever.
Last look!
N-GA
November 18th, 2009
7:44 am
Kim owns a Real Estate Agency. Her taxes are cut by the government and she decides to go out and hire some more agents. But wait! They work on commission and houses aren’t selling right now. Oh well…Kim will just laugh all the way to the bank.
Etc, etc., etc…………Oh! Let’s just cut taxes to ZERO! Darn, then we can’t pay our soldiers and government employees. What will we do?
Palin went to the George W. Bush School of (Inept) Business
stands for decibels
November 18th, 2009
7:44 am
“He has always been a hard worker and a really good guy. I just don’t know what to do or who to call for help — I wouldn’t wish this on anyone, not even someone that I didn’t like,” said Pat Whitey.
Yeah, well, suck it up–you sink or swim in this here country, and there’s plenty of room at the bottom of the lake for those who can’t cut it. Nothing is free.
Boogers for the Children Fund
November 18th, 2009
7:47 am
More extreme cases from the extreme liberal left. Im sure Mr Hawking wouldnt have been shuttered away in the “human whse”.
However, with OboboCare the silly govt bureaucracy, here in the U.S., may well have deemed it necessary to pull the plug on Mr Hawking.
Move along…nothing to see here.
Boogers for the Children Fund
November 18th, 2009
7:48 am
Perhaps by trotting muhammed ali the sports fans might jump on the OboboCare bandwagon.
Obobos new name…ObaMao!!
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
November 18th, 2009
7:49 am
Well, this Whitey guy must of made some Bad Choices. Now he has to take Personal Responsibility. Just because he got hisself into a bad fix is no reason to spend trillions of bucks to make sure everybody in the U.S. of A. has health insurance.
Sure, it’s bad news for him. But if it takes a year to get a 2% improvement he’s still got 50 years to go to get healed. The American taxpayer ain’t going to set still for being taxed to death just so somebody can get took care of on somebody else’s dime for 50 years. If he’s got mental problems then turn him loose and let somebody like @@ teach him how to tie his shoes and such. That woman can do it. She’s downright mean on here and I figure if he don’t learn quick she’ll kick his A and straighten him up right fast.
Anyway, I got my health insurance and Medicare to boot. That’s because I made Good Choices and took Personal Responsibility.
Have a good day everybody.
Don
November 18th, 2009
7:49 am
Single payer guaranteed health care for everyone. Now.
N-GA
November 18th, 2009
7:51 am
Vinny…that type of change in opinion generally originates in the Healthcare Industry. Look at the number of prescription drugs that were changed to over-the-counter drugs. Pepcid was one of the top selling prescription drugs when the Health Insurance industry suggested that it be sold over-the-counter. When the FDA approved that action, the expenses for the insurance companies went down. Did our insurance premiums go down? NO! They’ve NEVER gone down.
This little scenario has repeated itself far too many times. BTW, the side effects for these drugs haven’t changed. Nor have the drug interactions (”Don’t take this drug if you are taking……”). And pharmacy software can’t track non-prescription drugs to help prevent problems from drug interaction.
It’s all about profit for Health Insurance companies.
Peadawg
November 18th, 2009
7:54 am
“Single payer guaranteed health care for everyone. Now.”
Are you willing to have your taxes raised to pay for everyone’s healthcare? Honest yes or no answer please, Don.
Gale
November 18th, 2009
7:56 am
As long as the health care industry is run by profit-based companies –private insurance–, the costs will not go down for us, the consumers. Costs may go down for the insurance companies so they can book more profit. But that is not the same thing, is it?
N-GA
November 18th, 2009
7:58 am
Jay,
I tried a quick Google and didn’t get any good results. Do you have access to information about what happens to our health insurance premiums now? It would be interesting to see. For example, my premium (BC/BS) is $2100/month (true), but excludes dental & eyewear. What does BC/BS do with that money? How much goes to advertising, operating expenses, payments to healthcare providers, payments to labs, payments to pharmacies, payments to lobbyists, etc. I want to know exactly what percentage is actually used to pay for my healthcare! Then how many $billions are spent in the USA on non-healthcare related costs? Relate that to taxes, the cost of healthcare reform, etc.
jt
November 18th, 2009
7:59 am
“Overall, Whitey’s medical bills total around $47,000 per month.”
It IS tragic, but Government is NEVER the solution to problems that Government itself caused.
Sorry.
richard
November 18th, 2009
8:00 am
Another article on healthcare reform. First, a true story. My girlfriend has traveled to Toronto three times for her mother’s surgery. The first two times the hospital, doctors, and staff and performed their allotment, and it was therefore necessary to re-schedule. I am sure this has happened in the US, so let’s stop the useless “one off” stories. Second, let’s stop the silly discussions that the government needs to enter yet another line of business. The government exists to govern, regulate, and defend. We need to stop griping and force ourselves to take responsibility. Turn off the tv and computer and go for a walk. Stop letting the tv and your doc convince you that yet another pill will improve your life. Look at Fortune 500 companies that are truly reducing their healthcare costs with great programs. Government and “big business” will continually fail you. Note that Pfizer was fined in excess of $1 billion for promoting drugs for non intended uses. Do we really believe the goverment has $500b of savings- go ahead and save the $, you don’t need a new bill. All of us would be shocked if we heard the dems and republicans discuss these issue on a daily basis. If we all challenge ourselves, our doctors, and our goverment, we will get a better system that then can provide for the Americans who truly need financial support.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm!
November 18th, 2009
8:01 am
Gee, what’s the first thing the government always cuts?-
WASHINGTON – The House passed a bill Tuesday to let the struggling U.S. Postal Service cover a budget shortfall by reducing its annual payment to a health care fund for retirees by $4 billion.
So if they run all of the health care in the United States, they could just stop paying for it and we’d be in the black!
Oh, happy day!
Boogers for the Children Fund
November 18th, 2009
8:02 am
N-GA
November 18th, 2009
7:51 am
Yes…the price of MOST things continue to increase. Dont your wages continue to increase? If not then too bad for you.
stands for decibels
November 18th, 2009
8:02 am
Are you willing to have your taxes raised to pay for everyone’s healthcare?
Not that you asked me, but–yes.
Are you willing to have your own insurance premiums outpace inflation indefinitely so that the private insurance companies and their investors can continue to profit from suffering, in a manner unseen anywhere in the civilized world?
Mrs. Godzilla
November 18th, 2009
8:02 am
United States Of America
We’re # 37!
Rah Rah Rah
State of Georgia
We’re # 40!!
Siss Boom Bah
http://os.cqpress.com/rankings/HealthRankings_2009.pdf
Boogers for the Children Fund
November 18th, 2009
8:05 am
“Everyone has been holding on, but we just don’t know how we are going to pay for everything.”
Dont pay for any of it. File bankruptcy. I certainly think this situation qualifies.
Boogers for the Children Fund
November 18th, 2009
8:07 am
stands for decibels
November 18th, 2009
8:02 am
IM fine with paying the increase in insurance premiums and collecting my stock dividends also.
Did you buy any stock yesterday or spend the entire day whining? The latter Im sure.
Boogers for the Children Fund
November 18th, 2009
8:08 am
Not to worry Comrades. ObaMao will take care…lol.
Gale
November 18th, 2009
8:08 am
I see the problem this way. The only reason I have health insurance is catastrophic care. I can handle normal expenses just fine. So can the majority of citizens. However, if people could buy health insurance for only catastophy (I just know that is spelled wrong.) and if only chronically sick people bought regular insurance, the cost of that insurance would be very high. The answer, IMO, is to tax everyone and have single payer health care. Let insurance companies stay on the fringes. Some people will get free care because they do not work and do not pay taxes. So what? They get free care now anyway.
mike
November 18th, 2009
8:08 am
This is clearly a tragic story, but let’s not confuse the desire to offer the best treatment for everyone with our ability to do so. Where is the $564k per year to pay for this man’s treatment supposed to come from? That is eleven times the median US income.
This is the crux of the problem. Fifty years ago, all of these expensive therapies did not exist. Since that time, we have made tremendous advances in treatment, but many of these treatments are very expensive. As tragic as it is, our economy just does not produce enough wealth to offer all of these treatments to everyone, and holding that up as the goal is just denying reality.
N-GA
November 18th, 2009
8:11 am
Boogers…..Using your logic, taxes should always go UP!
Gale
November 18th, 2009
8:12 am
mike: sad, but true.
mike
November 18th, 2009
8:13 am
sfb –
“Are you willing to have your own insurance premiums outpace inflation indefinitely so that the private insurance companies and their investors can continue to profit from suffering, in a manner unseen anywhere in the civilized world?”
Insurance companies run on one of the thinnest profit margins of any business sector.
As the AP reported:
“In the health care debate, Democrats and their allies have gone after insurance companies as rapacious profiteers making “immoral” and “obscene” returns while “the bodies pile up.”
Ledgers tell a different reality. Health insurance profit margins typically run about 6 percent, give or take a point or two. That’s anemic compared with other forms of insurance and a broad array of industries, even some beleaguered ones.
Profits barely exceeded 2 percent of revenues in the latest annual measure. This partly explains why the credit ratings of some of the largest insurers were downgraded to negative from stable heading into this year, as investors were warned of a stagnant if not shrinking market for private plans.”
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20091025/ap_on_go_co/us_fact_check_health_insurance;_ylt=AhELGg9Me3bxurhZrQ2JCsqs0NUE;_ylu=X3oDMTJycGd0OWNxBGFzc2V0A2FwLzIwMDkxMDI1L3VzX2ZhY3RfY2hlY2tfaGVhbHRoX2luc3VyYW5jZQRwb3MDNARzZWMDeW5fbW9zdF9wb3B1bGFyBHNsawNmYWN0Y2hlY2toZWE-
This notion that the insurance companies and their evil investors are making a big profit is ignorant.
Paul
November 18th, 2009
8:15 am
Jay
“Best” is the operative word. People will quibble over that all day long, but if the idea is the most care for the most people with shared responsibility, the title makes a strong point. Remember, the Brit system allows private care and insurance for those who have the ability and desire to take it further.
A key difference between the Brit system and anything proposed here: nothing proposed here comes close to the Brit system. Not even. A lot of the propaganda makes it seem so, but it just isn’t so.
And yes, Report/Whine, the example in today’s subject will likely die. Happens every day. Other options? Applicable to the population as a whole? There aren’t any. Emergency room care just doesn’t cut it.
Thank heavens Hawking was born a Brit and not to an American family where the parents didn’t have a government or strong union job with good taxpayer-subsidized health care options. The knowledge he’s uncovered has been astounding.
Peadawg
November 18th, 2009
8:16 am
sfd,
Don’t you think our taxes are high enough right now? I work for my money and I am entitled to MY money. I don’t try to take your money. Why try to take mine?
mike
November 18th, 2009
8:18 am
Gale:
“mike: sad, but true.”
It is sad, but let’s keep some perspective. People are living almost 10 years longer than they did in 1960. People are living healthier, longer lives, despite our inability to offer the most expensive care to everyone in the country.
I think this is a major difference between liberals and conservatives. It seems to me that liberals think that pretty much any tragedy can be averted with the right government plan, whether it is mitigating this unfortunate man’s suffering or preventing chaos when a hurricane destroys a major US city. Liberals seem to think that the government can government can shield us from all tragedy. It can’t.
Boogers for the Children Fund
November 18th, 2009
8:19 am
sfd probably has not much of anything, hence, his desire to commit thefts and/or have the govt and ObaMao do it for him.
Paul
November 18th, 2009
8:19 am
G’morning, Peadawg
[[Are you willing to have your taxes raised to pay for everyone’s healthcare?]]
As the topic kicked off with the British model, that’s an appropriate question. I’d offer the opinion of the electorate, as illustrated by the stands taken by our representatives, is a resounding ‘no.’ The Brit model taxes nearly everyone, heavily. Very few exemptions, sliding scales, subsidies, as Americans are fond of. The US model is illustrated by the Democratic alternative – let the millionaires pay.
jt
November 18th, 2009
8:19 am
Jay Bookman can pick tragedies. How about this. The following is in the normal budget(no stimulas, bail-out, nada.) Just normal spending by our compassionate federal government.
41 million equates to roughly 80 years to keep Mr. Whitey going. I guess presedential libraries are more important.
$41,500,000 for three projects funding presidential libraries: $22,000,000 by Sen. John Kerry (D-Mass.), and Reps. Stephen Lynch (D-Mass.) and Edward Markey (D-Mass.) for the John F. Kennedy Presidential Library in Boston, Massachusetts; $17,500,000 by Senate Majority Leader Harry Reid (D-Nev.), and Sens. Charles Schumer (D-N.Y.) and Kirsten Gillibrand (D-N.Y.) for the Franklin D. Roosevelt Presidential Library in Hyde Park, New York; and $2,000,000 by Senate appropriator Kay Bailey Hutchison (R-Texas) for the Lyndon Baines Johnson Presidential Library in
Austin, Texas. All three of these libraries received funding last year, bringing their combined two-year earmark total to $54,010,000. In addition, each library receives an annual operating subsidy from the National Archives and Records Administration; the JFK Library receives $3,883,000 annually, the LBJ Library receives $2,935,000 annually (and is the only presidential library that does not charge admission), and the FDR Library receives $1,640,000 annually.
sickening.
Jimmy Carter
November 18th, 2009
8:20 am
Nothing like pointing out ont of the most extreme cases to belittle the US healthcare system.
Jay, do you have an equally compelling story about the 4 pack a day cigarette smoking, beer guzzling, food gorging 550 pound person who sits on their butt all day long in front of a TV, draws disability, Social Security, food stamps and welfare, yet complains about how they are a “victim” of our cruel society?
Mrs. Godzilla
November 18th, 2009
8:21 am
Borrowed from a rightwing poster last night @ 5:17…..changed from education to health care…..kinda interesting…..
***Because quality affordable healthcare for Americans has been in decline for decades. It’s the children’s health that should be foremost in your mind. Not the wasting of your tax dollars and the children’s health.
Think of it as an experiment. Enough people take their money and walk, looking for something better, the Medical Indutrial Complex will be forced to get their act together.****
Nothing Is Free
November 18th, 2009
8:22 am
On FOX tis morning, I saw a clip of an interview that he gave that network yesterday.
He said that they are looking at some strategies for driving small businesses to start hiring again. One of the ideas was TAX BREAKS.
How long have I been asleep?
bob
November 18th, 2009
8:22 am
Jay, Why did the dems vote down repub amendments that would have forced congress to join the gov option from day one ? You want to get myself and others to jump on the reform bandwagon, but the one driving wagon says, NOT ME ! It’s just like taxes, I should pay but those the write tax law don’t seem to like the idea themselves, Rangle, daschale, geitner. What good is a plan if it’s authors won’t use it. If private care is a ripoff, Pelosi should be first in line for enrollment. It now makes me wonder why so many government employees do not get stuck in the great and wonderful democrat retirement plan, Social Security. Jay, is exempting themselves from their own programs just a way to punish themselves or reward themselves ?
Nothing Is Free
November 18th, 2009
8:22 am
“He” is of course, Obama.
German Shepherd Dawg
November 18th, 2009
8:23 am
Mike,
Don’t expect lucid thought to be well received here by the usual suspects.
Mr Right
November 18th, 2009
8:24 am
Gov run health care? They can’t run anything else, why could they run health care?
Paul
November 18th, 2009
8:25 am
mike
[[Insurance companies run on one of the thinnest profit margins of any business sector.]]
As we are no where near a single-payer system in this country (nothing on the table now is anything like it) this is largely academic. But tomorrow’s policy begins with just such discussions.
If insurance profits are truly low, and if (estimates are all over the place) their overhead is at least a third… then looking at the total cost of our private system, and the, what, 85, 90 percent coverage we have, doesn’t it seem if we eliminated the huge overhead costs and profit incentive that total system cost should stabilize at a lower level?
bob
November 18th, 2009
8:26 am
NGA, how did we pay our soldiers before 1913 ?
Cherokee
November 18th, 2009
8:27 am
Yeah richard if only that guy had walked more, instead of driving his truck and earning a living, you betcha, he wouldn’t have had this problem.
Guess he just made poor choices in life…
jt
November 18th, 2009
8:27 am
“Think of it as an experiment. Enough people take their money and walk, looking for something better, the Medical Indutrial Complex will be forced to get their act together.****”
Even better.
Think of it as an experiment. Enough people keep their money and walk, looking for something better, the GANG of 525 Incumbants will be forced to get their act together.****
Paul
November 18th, 2009
8:28 am
bob
[[Why did the dems vote down repub amendments that would have forced congress to join the gov option from day one]]
I believe the gov’t option is an option for those turned down by insurance companies? I think Congress is on the same system as all the rest of the hundreds of thousands of federal employees. Unless one wants to open up a public option to all of them….
Yo'momma Obama
November 18th, 2009
8:28 am
I want guaranteed single payor access to all the $1 value meals so I can cecome as fat as Michael Moore……now
I want guaranteed single payor access to all the alcohol I want and still get a free liver transplant….now
I want guaranteed single payor access for free sex addiction treatment…..now…..for that matter I want government access to free “ho’s”, AND free treatment for STD’s
I want government single payor access to free healthcare for all of my illigitimate 12 children, even though I’m only 18……now
I want government single payor access to free marijuana for my “anxiety” disorder….now
I want government single payor access to free Xbox for treatment of my trigger thumb….now
I want government single payor access to free trips to Bahamas for my vit D deficiency
I want government single payor access to free adult Depends diapers for Jay and all my fellow bedwetting liberals on this blog…..now
Any other demands? The Senate is debating ya know….better slip it in now while the gettin’s easy
Corey
November 18th, 2009
8:28 am
Honestly, how many of you are now paying more taxes under the current administration? How many of you Obama haters are paying more taxes now? Come on, don’t you all speak at once. How many of you are noticing the dow heading south? How many of you see the economy growing at a negative rate? I thought so – nothing but hate and hype. That’s all you know, and you’re proud of it. Pitiful!
Nothing Is Free
November 18th, 2009
8:29 am
Jay
Why are you comparing the universal Health Care of Great Briton to what they have in the Senate? It’s not even close. We aren’t getting anything but universal imprisonment for not buying health care from the most evil and corrupt industry in the world: the health care industry.
And in order to force us all to buy health care, it will cost 1.2 trillion dollars.
Hey Washington. Could you send maybe a billion of that our way down here in Georgia. Our schools stink and Grady is so full of illegal immigrants that we can’t take care of the American Citizens. Out of 1.2 trillion, who’s going to mis a billion or two?
N-GA
November 18th, 2009
8:30 am
Good morning, Paul. Your 8:25 seems to echo my 7:58.
I find the 2% profit number very suspect. There isn’t really any competition driving premiums down, and that is what the Health Insurance industry fears the most about the government option.
Paul
November 18th, 2009
8:31 am
bob – followup- federal employees have been covered by Social Security since 1984. People in the system before that weren’t, but are covered (and do pay into) Medicare.
mike
November 18th, 2009
8:32 am
Paul –
“If insurance profits are truly low, and if (estimates are all over the place)”
Estimates have nothing to do with it. These are companies that report their fianances. Their profits are truly low.
“their overhead is at least a third… ”
What constitutes “overhead”? Why would a single payer plan not have this same “overhead”? Where does your “at least a third” number come from?
t
Dave R.
November 18th, 2009
8:32 am
(Yawn) Hasn’t Bookman done this particular thread about 5 or 6 times already? Ours system the best, but ours is not perfect, and any hope that government will get us closer to perfection is simply delusional thinking.
What’s the matter Jay? Can’t find something new to bash Sarah Palin with today? Or have you already posted your monthly allotment of complaint pieces about her?
Nothing Is Free
November 18th, 2009
8:33 am
Corey
Nice speech.
Now could you explain how the health bill now being offered will help anything you talked about?
We were told this entire year that the health insurance companies are the most evil entities on earth. But this bill will jail anyone who doesn’t buy health insurance. Doesn’t that seem a little strange to you?
jt
November 18th, 2009
8:33 am
. “Could you send maybe a billion of that our way down here in Georgia.”
Silly blogger, The Kennedy Library is MUCH more important.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm!
November 18th, 2009
8:34 am
And yes, Report/Whine, the example in today’s subject will likely die. Happens every day.
Paul- Everybody dies. I’m looking for specific instances of people in the United States dying from lack of health care insurance. Should be easy to find one, right?
mike
November 18th, 2009
8:35 am
Corey –
“Honestly, how many of you are now paying more taxes under the current administration? ”
Well, his legislation has not passed yet. Familiarize yourself with the details of the proposed health care reform. It will be paid for with higher taxes.
Dave R.
November 18th, 2009
8:35 am
Corey, do you think that all those deficits that Hope & Change and the Dems in Congress have added these past 2 years are just going to pay themselves off? What planet do you live on?
Our taxes WILL be raised. Count on it. We have to pay for Hope & Change’s irresponsible spending somehow.
Paul
November 18th, 2009
8:36 am
Good Morning, N-GA
[[Your 8:25 seems to echo my 7:58.]]
Yup. Sometimes restating a point can cause people to see it in a different light. Ever notice how many coworkers, parents, spouses – when what they said isn’t understood they repeat it? Over and over? And louder? Sometimes a different example is all it takes.
I, too, wonder if the percents cited are the result of fun with numbers. Pharma used to be able to write off all the wining and dining of doctors, payment for conferences around the world, marketing encouragement direct to doctors as ‘drug development expenses.’ Congress shut that down a few years back (way too much bad publicity) but I notice pharma’s profit margins haven’t changed. Imagine that -
N-GA
November 18th, 2009
8:37 am
Mike: re your 8:32.
A government option would have lower expenses (apples-to-apples) because there are no government employees paid salary + bonuses in the 10’s of million of dollars like the top 3 layers of management in the insurance industry. There are no corporate taxes paid (at the 40-50% rate). There is no advertising expense. There is no LOBBYING expense. There are no payouts to shareholders (dividends, preferred stock payments)….the list is very long.
mike
November 18th, 2009
8:37 am
“as a massive health care reform bill inches closer to reality, middle-class Americans, as well as high income earners, can expect some sort of increase in what they pay into government coffers”
http://abcnews.go.com/Business/health-care-reform-taxes-hit-middle-class/story?id=9090430
Corey
November 18th, 2009
8:40 am
Nothing Is Free, the cake hasn’t baked yet. There is no health care bill just talking heads delivering their take on things, and partisan hacks on both sides scoring political points. There is no final product to talk about yet. Doesn’t that seem a little strange to be fighting about something that is not final.
N-GA
November 18th, 2009
8:40 am
Paul….How many companies on the NYSE make profits of 2% year-over-year and still have people buying their stock? Unless they are paying out the majority of their profits to shareholders (REIT’s?).
No answer expected…..
Donovan
November 18th, 2009
8:42 am
Well Bookman, it looks like the readers have decided. You and Tucker need to find another occupation. This tripe you two are trying to sell is not going over so well. Just recently I have noticed that you are replying to some selected bloggers. Looks like they are getting under your skin, liberal. Read our lips…”We don’t want government health care”.
mike
November 18th, 2009
8:43 am
N-GA -
“A government option would have lower expenses (apples-to-apples) because there are no government employees paid salary + bonuses in the 10’s of million of dollars like the top 3 layers of management in the insurance industry.”
What nonsense. The CEO’s of these companies don’t make 10s of millions, let alone the top three layers of management. Where do you get your information?
If you think that the amount paid to executives makes an iota of difference in the multi-trillion healthcare economy, you aren’t doing the math. Even if your absurd exaggerations were accurate, it would still be a drop in the bucket.
stands for decibels
November 18th, 2009
8:44 am
Since my reply to the “boogers” guy was moderated out, I’ll try once more before departing.
Did you buy any stock yesterday or spend the entire day whining? The latter Im sure.
Yes, like a large number of working Americans who have 401(k)s and IRAs to manage, I do invest in stocks, albeit through managed funds.
An no, I did not spend the entire day whining. In fact, I spend about 1/10th as much time playing in online forums during the “work” day as you do. If that.
And you know where you and your little yapdogs can shove your allegations of “theft.” Coming from a guy like you whose “work”, as far as I can ascertain, contributes absolutely nothing of value to the American economy, that is rich.
It’s not my fault that you’re terrified of a country with something resembling a representational government and the sort of infrastructure, education, and healthcare priorities that a civilized nation might have. Maybe you can have that looked at.
Really outa here now, unless I’ve offended Jay’s Cyber-Bluenose somehow…
Disgusted
November 18th, 2009
8:45 am
It now makes me wonder why so many government employees do not get stuck in the great and wonderful democrat retirement plan, Social Security. Jay, is exempting themselves from their own programs just a way to punish themselves or reward themselves?
Your ignorance is showing, bob. Sit down and read. Get informed. Government employees have been required to be under Social Security since Newt’s reformation of the government retirement plans way back there. And Congress, as well as all government employees, all enroll in one of 20-some private health insurance plans offered by the government. I’ll use little words so that you can understand. All members of Congress and federal employees must choose from plans offered by such insurers as Aetna, Blue Cross/Blue Shield, Kaiser, United Healthcare, etc. There is no “government plan,” except for Medicare, which is available to all people 65 and older.
Got it?
Paul
November 18th, 2009
8:48 am
mike
I’ve been gone a bit, I normally provide cites. Just waking up a bit now before diving into work so I used the qualifiers. I’ve seen numbers reported – whether from industry, gov’t compilations or independent audits – all over the place. But quite high overhead (really, not that much different than many industries). But the overriding point was, take out the driver for profit as the main motivator, take out the huge costs associated with preventive tests to reduce the threat of medical liability… take out all the items that impact cost but not necessarily quality of care…
and I just don’t see how an option like the one under discussion could cost a whole lot more than what we have!
Report/Whine
[[I’m looking for specific instances of people in the United States dying from lack of health care insurance. Should be easy to find one, right?]]
Should be. I cited a – 60 Minutes? one of those shows – some months back that dealt with this. Interviewed a number of patients and family members who fit what we’re discussing. Had one woman, kidney difficulties I believe, lost her job, insurance ended, care ended. Was a single mom, confined to bed, no health care, pretty much waiting to die. Without a public hospital with the specialists, charity is an option determined by the generosity of the giver, not the need of the patient.
http://www.nader.org/index.php?/archives/1273-The-Sorry-State-of-Health-Care-in-America.html
I take exception to several of the points and implications of the WSJ article. But the point of the example – the leukemia patient whose doctors couldn’t cope and the specialized center that could, but the patient couldn’t pay – seems to answer your question.
Don’t have the money, even if a care possibility exists? One outcome – death from the condition.
repukes stink
November 18th, 2009
8:50 am
Jay wants more butter, as do all the dummycrats. Kyle and Woodenhead want more guns, as do all stinking repukes. What the fools do not realize is they are destroying the dollar as a reserve currency, and with that destruction both sides will lose their butter and their guns. I myself am well prepared for that eventuality, and I will be sitting in great comfort laughing wildly as things fall apart, doing what I can to make things even worse still. Tell me this clowns, when the dollar is no longer accepted in exchange for the wealth of the world, how will you pay for the roughly 13 million barrels of oil imports per day? We have ~266 million ounces of gold with which to pay, but at an exchange rate of 10 barrels of oil per ounce, that will last less than one year, then the gold is ALL gone. No more big screen tv’s, no more top of the line computers, no more inexpensive clothes and shoes. So the political clowns fight on over more guns, or more butter, while the end of the american lifestyle rapidly approaches. ha ha ha, roflol
N-GA
November 18th, 2009
8:51 am
Mike (8:43) – Is that all you’ve got? Thought so….
david wayne osedach
November 18th, 2009
8:53 am
I lived in London for a Year and worked (illegally) under the table at a pub. When I tore a muscle the National Health Service covered me and even put me up in a B&B until I could get back to work. All prescriptions were a pound.
Paul
November 18th, 2009
8:53 am
mike
[[Even if your absurd exaggerations were accurate, it would still be a drop in the bucket.]]
I do not write this as a ‘gotcha’ question but am just trying to see if that argument extends to other areas.
When we read the reports of earmarks, of example of waste from the stimulus bill, of programs that have outlived their original intent but continue on, funded year after year –
Do you say it doesn’t matter because compared to the totality of federal outlays, it’s just ‘a drop in the bucket’?
Normal
November 18th, 2009
8:53 am
I want Government Healthcare and I want each of us to be taxed according to our ability to pay to pay for it all.
I would also like to see red meat, fatty snack foods, and sugar outlawed. And while we are at it, have manditory fitness classes. Get fit or pay extra. Maybe even have a country wide scheduled hour where everyone has to get off the couch and walk around the neighborhood. Neighborhood Watch can rat out the slackers and then they get to spend week ends picking up trash for exercise after paying a hefty fine. This healthcare thing can pay for itself in fines by the slackers. Yep, it could work.
AmVet
November 18th, 2009
8:53 am
To segue off of yesterday’s topic and for all you supposed Hebe lovers out there, guess what type of health care system they have in Israel?
Yep, universal and it is administered by a small number of organizations with funding from the government.
The facts are simple – the health care system in the United States is a COMPLETE joke. Were it not so tragic. To the tune of 40,000 Americans dying every year needlessly.
Millions of needless paper shufflers who have perfected the art of waste, abuse and fraud. Level after level after level of “free market” bureaucrats and fat cats skimming off the top.
So keep on shucking for the army of corporations in a variety of sectors, and their limitless lobbyists, that keep this current inept clusterf&ck in place.
And know that virtually every other significant western nation in the world has national health insurance. We are the ONLY country left with this corporatist run debacle and Ponzi scheme.
Thank (your favorite deity here) for the VA…
Jimmy Carter
November 18th, 2009
8:54 am
repukes stink
November 18th, 2009
8:50 am
So you’ll sit back rejoicing when America crumbles? Wow, nice sentiment. Are you a muslim?
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm!
November 18th, 2009
9:01 am
The facts are simple – the health care system in the United States is a COMPLETE joke. Were it not so tragic. To the tune of 40,000 Americans dying every year needlessly.
Paul can’t come up with one name, AmWet tosses out a ridiculous number, bookman remains silent.
I win.
getalife
November 18th, 2009
9:04 am
cons are missing the empathy gene so this approach will not bother them.
When they enter the ER or hospitals, then get the bills, they will know about American health care.
Don
November 18th, 2009
9:04 am
Pea 7:54,
Yes. I can’t think of a better program for my taxes to fund.
N-GA
November 18th, 2009
9:04 am
Mike, I went to Aetna’s website. They have their financial statement online, but don’t make available the compensation of executive management. That apparently was restricted to the actual published statements. However, for your enjoyment:
(Millions, except for per common share data)
FOR THE YEAR 2008 2007 CHANGE
Revenue1 $30,950.7 $27,599.6 12.1%
Operating Earnings2 1,920.9 1,837.1 4.6%
Net Income 1,384.1 1,831.0 (24.4)%
Operating Expense Ratio3 17.8% 18.2% (2.2)%
After-tax Operating Margin 4.5% 6.6% (31.8)%
AT YEAR END
Assets $35,852.5 $50,724.7 (29.3)%
Shareholders Equity 8,186.4 10,038.4 (18.4)%
Market Capitalization 13,003.2 28,649.5 (54.6)%
Common Shares Outstanding 456.3 496.3 (8.1)%
PER COMMON SHARE
Operating Earnings2 $3.93 $3.49 12.6%
Net Income $2.83 $3.47 (18.4)%
Sorry about the spacing….nothing I can do about that. I’ll let you calculate what the operating profits are before taxes. About 10% I suspect. That’s billion of dollars right there that a government plan would eliminate.
Boogers for the Children Fund
November 18th, 2009
9:05 am
david wayne osedach
November 18th, 2009
8:53 am
Sure…lol. You just LOVE ObaMao!
repukes stink
November 18th, 2009
9:06 am
No Jimmy, I am Anglo Saxon and proud of it, but I hate both repukes and dummycrats with equal vigor. My greedy, fat, lazy, and stupid fellow americans have a beating coming, and I always enjoy seeing fat lazy people take a beating. As for Muslims, well they have been victims of American and Israeli bullying for at least the last 60 years, so I got no beef with them. My advice to both Repukes and Dummycrats is: git a horse, you are gonna need it. No, I will not help any of you. Suffer, I enjoy watching that.
Scooter
November 18th, 2009
9:08 am
AmVet
November 18th, 2009
8:53 am
AMEN Brother!
N-GA
November 18th, 2009
9:08 am
Paul,
I’m afraid I can’t hang out here. It’s unlikely to be fruitful in any event. Gold’s at $1,146/oz and it’s not being driven by a falling dollar. I suspect that it’s rising based upon demand. People are going to it as a safe haven….I don’t like that.
Corey
November 18th, 2009
9:09 am
Dave R.,would that be like Clinton and Bush I raising taxes to pay down the debt piled up under Reagan? Even he raised taxes several times. Are you old enough to remember that? These are extraodinary times which require massive spending. We were looking another depression in the face last fall, and Wall St. was in disarray and threatening to collapse the world economy. States and local governments were about to shut down. Essential services could barely afford to be payed for by localities. Cuts in education and public safety would have been much deeper. I could go on, but I do not have an Egyptian scroll to list it all. How conveniently we forget facts when we are angy at policy enacted by a party we deplore. Can you say delusional?
I Report (-: You Whine )-: mmm, mmmm, mmmmm!
November 18th, 2009
9:10 am
When they enter the ER or hospitals, then get the bills, they will know about American health care.
We already get the bill, gitmo.
Swami Dave
November 18th, 2009
9:10 am
Gale:
“…The only reason I have health insurance is catastrophic care. I can handle normal expenses just fine. So can the majority of citizens. However, if people could buy health insurance for only catastophy (I just know that is spelled wrong.) and if only chronically sick people bought regular insurance, the cost of that insurance would be very high. The answer, IMO, is to tax everyone and have single payer health care…”
Actually, Gale, -YOUR- actions are the example of a rational and logical approach to funding for health care; namely: catastrophic coverage for outlier situations and individual coverage of normal expenses. Individuals who attempt to use insurance (or government) to transfer standard medical expenses onto others are the -REAL- problem! The direction to tax and redistribute all costs among the pool is the wrong plan since it removes any incentive by individuals to act in a manner that controls the cost. In the end, (like all collectivist schemes) costs are never contained because the motivation for parties moves toward “getting something for what ‘I put in’”.
Frankly Gale, America needs leadership and action that rewards and benefits those like you who are doing it right instead of sinking further into the collectivist rathole of confiscating from you to reward and benefit to those doing it the wrong way.
-SD
Scooter
November 18th, 2009
9:11 am
Normal
November 18th, 2009
8:53 am
Dang Normal, I usually agree with you but I don’t know abuot this one dude. No T-bone steaks! Whew!
Joey
November 18th, 2009
9:11 am
Jay;
This emotional plea by you has convinced me. As soon as I post this I will write to my Congressman and Senators demanding that they change their votes. Demanding that they support full Federal Goverment Funded National Health Care for each and every one.
NOT!
Boogers for the Children Fund
November 18th, 2009
9:12 am
“To the tune of 40,000 Americans dying every year needlessly.”
LOL…”Needlessly”? WAAY to subjective. Pls define.
I bet you love ObaMao.
getalife
November 18th, 2009
9:13 am
Andy,
Yes, we pay for your vet health care and I don’t whine about it.
Dave R.
November 18th, 2009
9:13 am
N-GA, if you think that government will do such a great job of managing the cost of health care, then why does Hope & Change think he can get about $500 billion in waste out of the government run health care system called Medicare?
They can’t even fix the system they’ve got, and you want to give them MORE control and MORE money?