Italians convict U.S. officials, agents in kidnapping case
MILAN — An Italian court on Wednesday convicted 22 CIA operatives and a U.S. Air Force colonel of orchestrating the kidnapping of a Muslim cleric here in 2003 and flying him to Egypt, where he said he was tortured.
In rendering the verdict, the judge in the case, Oscar Magi, acquitted three other Americans, including the former Rome station chief for the CIA, saying they were covered by diplomatic immunity.
The Americans were all tried in absentia but were represented throughout the trial by defense attorneys, most of them court-appointed. The U.S. defendants who were convicted each received a five-year prison sentence, with the exception of Robert Seldon Lady, the CIA’s former chief in Milan, who was sentenced to eight years for overseeing the kidnapping plot.
Americans ought to put themselves in the position of the Italians, asking how we would respond if the Russians or the Chinese or even the Italians kidnapped people off American streets and smuggled them out of the country. I don’t think it would exactly go over very well.
I do think there can be a time and a place for such operations. If we have identified a verified terrorist in a country that refuses to cooperate with us, I would have little problem grabbing that person and bringing him here for trial and incarceration. If it’s somebody we know has killed Americans, somebody who has been given shelter by that other country, it wouldn’t bother me if fatal force became necessary.
But in this case the Muslim cleric was not a verified terrorist, Italy was an ally not an enemy, and the captive was not brought here to trial. He was sent to Egypt where he was tortured. We knew or at least had every reason to know that’s exactly what would happen to him there.
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359 comments Add your comment
Dave R.
November 4th, 2009
4:52 pm
Yes, but was the terrorist accused of being gay, Jay? That seems to be the most important thing in your life today.
Dave R.
November 4th, 2009
4:52 pm
First!
Mrs. Godzilla
November 4th, 2009
4:55 pm
Isn’t Spain looking at Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld?
Is there a “offense fund” somewhere in need of our checks?
We’d love to help.
joe matarotz
November 4th, 2009
4:56 pm
Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty, Jay? Do you know for sure that these charges are true and the defendants are guilty? If so, how do you know?
Matilda
November 4th, 2009
5:01 pm
joe m, Jay reported to us the facts: An Italian court convicted these people in abstentia. He didn’t claim he was there. He asked us to think about how we’d respond of the shoe were on the other foot, but if you don’t want to think, it’s five o’clock now and you can go have juice and cookies intead.
Jay
November 4th, 2009
5:04 pm
Joe, read the story. They were tried in court and convicted and the evidence of their involvement was overwhelming. They had cell phone records, seized computers and a whole lot of other documentation proving their involvement.
md
November 4th, 2009
5:08 pm
The spooks play a different game than the rest of the world, and every country has a group of spooks. I’ll give mine the benefit of doubt since I have no clue about the inner workings of spookville. As the saying goes “you want us on that wall”.
Skip
November 4th, 2009
5:14 pm
Rules are whatever we say they are, unless we change our minds.
AmVet
November 4th, 2009
5:20 pm
The serially impeachable BushCo administration, from the top on down through its army of goose-stepping minions, had very little use for the rule of law. Certainly not when it didn’t allow them to do what they wanted.
But that has NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING to do with explaining what has happened at the polls since then.
(I’m still chuckling from downstairs…)
LOL…
getalife
November 4th, 2009
5:21 pm
My homies following the rule of law makes me proud.
Dusty
November 4th, 2009
5:25 pm
Awww, Bookman gave up with 184 comments on the last subject. Just as I was wanting to see a picture of him and Obama. Now it is the Eye’Talians. Bookman is going far afield to be sure we get what he thinks is good news. Must be awful hard to find some “dirt” on liberals. He never finds any!!
Psst…did you know that the CIA kidnapped the Lindberg baby? They just found the evidence at DNC headquarters. A note with the evidence read “Bush made us do it!”
Pogo
November 4th, 2009
5:30 pm
Tough knookies. To root out the bad ones we will, inevitably, make mistakes (if indeed this was a mistake). I am certainly not saying that this was a mistake because I don’t know this particular cleric’s rap sheet. Assuming that this was a mistake, they are unfortunate but Jay this is not a perfect world. You state that he was tortured in Egypt but who is making that accusation? A bit vague don’t you think? I understand you must must comply with liberal idealogy and that you must immediately assume that America was in the wrong, but come on. Do you really, REALLY know enough about this to make an issue of it? This could have been a very, very bad man and our people were convicted by just another established liberal socialist European country who, like yourself, take great pride in “sticking it in America’s eye”. I can’t even imagine the energy it must take to search for things to hate about your country like you liberals do.
Common Sense
November 4th, 2009
5:31 pm
Hey …… the Israeli’s do a lot worse than that and more power to them. It’s why they still have a country. If it’s o.k. to lob cruise missiles into Afghanistan (and many other places over the years) then it’s o.k. to kidnap a Muslim cleric.
P.S. I’m not eating pizza for week in protest of our Italian knuckleheads !
I Report (-: You Whine )-: Ate Up With Envy mmm, mmmm, mmmmm!
November 4th, 2009
5:32 pm
First of all, we need to define “torture,” us usual.
And I can remember a case where a couple hundred Americans were kidnapped on their airplane and killed shortly thereafter. Ackmed should feel lucky.
~~~~~
Isn’t it cool to see the moonbats on the bookman blog and the Speaker of the House of Representatives as the only ones touting the same ridiculous idea?-
PELOSI: ‘WE WON LAST NIGHT’…
Maybe that’s why we are losing so badly in Afghanistan, maybe these libs don’t know what victory is?
They thinks we kickin ass, ew.
joe matarotz
November 4th, 2009
5:32 pm
Jay, I was particularly intrigued by the evidence on the computer. They had flight schedules downloaded, even though they were using military transportation. So what do you think, they couldn’t get a movie flight on Alitalia? So they decided to take him to Germany to throw off the pursuers. And a daring daylight snatch, involving at least 25 people (23 convicted Americans and 2 Italians). They must have pulled up in a stealth municipal bus. And then the star witness was unable to get to the trial, even though the trial lasted 3 years.
You may buy this pig sight unseen, but it doesn’t pass the sniff test. Of course, times being what they are, the CIA might have lowered their standards for employment. It is possible the collective group IQ was less than room temperature. Or, just maybe, the Italians have an axe to grind with the US Government and this is the route they chose.
AmVet
November 4th, 2009
5:33 pm
And Jay is right.
The most zealous of you Bush apologists, like up and down, are they type who have no problems stepping on other people’s rights. Here, there, anywhere.
Not until you finally figure out the lawless genie’s out of the bottle and you get stomped.
Mistakes, my arse…
I’m gonna keep asking – when did the GOP become the anti-law and order party?
Dusty
November 4th, 2009
5:34 pm
getalife,
I know you are proud. It isn’t often that those Italian Sicilians are on the side of the law.
Paul
November 4th, 2009
5:35 pm
We wouldn’t care for it. If they were American citizens. If they were, say, Chechens and a Russian team grabbed them, we’d protest, but that’s probably as far as it would go.
‘Course, the Obama Administration has continued rendition. But the difference, if I understand it, is that they will get assurances the detainees aren’t tortured.
So let me get this. We have a suspect. We go the rendition route for interrogation. Send him to Egypt. And we think these people are going to be nice? No loud music? No yelling at them? No threatening gestures? (all that torture stuff). Because they’ve given assurances and our diplomats will check in on them from time to time?
Help me out here… if we think the suspect has information we need but we can’t get it so we send them to another country for interrogation, but that country will not do the things we consider torture but we think they’ll get the information when we can’t….
????????????????
I think there must be a rest of the story.
Normal
November 4th, 2009
5:37 pm
This was a trial that should have been tried here. What does that say about us?
Normal
November 4th, 2009
5:39 pm
Common Sense, “P.S. I’m not eating pizza for week in protest of our Italian knuckleheads
I don’t know, man…I’ll give up ziti, but pizza…ouch!
I Report (-: You Whine )-: Ate Up With Envy mmm, mmmm, mmmmm!
November 4th, 2009
5:40 pm
I can also remember when these fascist Italians hooked up with the Nazis and went ramapging all around Europe, Russia and wait, no, not the Middle East, yes, they did.
Anybody wanna guess the damage they inflicted not in sissy boy torture, were talking murder now.
In the tens of millions.
And bookman sides up with them against America.
Seig Heil, jackboot!
Jay
November 4th, 2009
5:45 pm
Reporter, there are days I would swear that you’re a parody artist along the lines of Redneck, but even better.
This is such a day.
AmVet
November 4th, 2009
5:45 pm
Normal, that was absolutely beautiful how you handled mike downstairs.
That guy has some real issues.
I love how the always succinct but awesome getalife says so much in so few words. I wish I had that talent.
And I know this may PO you my brother, but Go Yankees! (A lifelong fan who ain’t giving up now…)
I Report (-: You Whine )-: Ate Up With Envy mmm, mmmm, mmmmm!
November 4th, 2009
5:46 pm
For my sole comment on the last blog, 70% of Americans have voted against that sort of behavior.
ewwwwwwwwwwwww.
Jay
November 4th, 2009
5:50 pm
I’m thinking I need to add the words “Go Yankees” to my list of banned terms.
joe matarotz
November 4th, 2009
5:52 pm
I searched for the transcript of the trial and discovered some fascinating testimony from the Italian chief investigator.
In sworn testimony he said, “Fredo’ Cockatoo dello S.A., non un pappagallo.” (Fred’s a cockatoo, not a parrot.)
And his summation of the case was masterful, “Se voi can’ la t fa il tempo, don’ la t fa il crimine.” (If you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime.)
An open and shut case if ever I saw one. those guys are lucky they weren’t sentenced to sleep with the fishes.
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
November 4th, 2009
5:52 pm
Well, I know you missed me but I was out all day taking care of Joe Bill. He watched the election returns last night and kept drinking PBR and then mixed it with some shine he bought to sellabrate. His wife called me early this a.m. saying Joe Bill was out of it and she was afraid he was dead. Anyway, I went over there and hauled him to Northside Hospitle in Forsysth and they said it was alcohol poisoning. He started coming around about 1 today and the first words out of his mouth was Is Obama Impeached Yet? I had to tell him no and besides, guvners don’t get a vote in Congress and we lost a seat there. Good thing he can’t get his hands on some booze in the hospitle.
I’m against these Italians convicting our CIA. The CIA people didn’t even show up for the trial and you can’t convict a man that ain’t in court. It’s Unconstitutional. Anyhow, I’m sure this guy that’s accusing them enjoyed his vacation in Egypt. I tried to get there myself as a missionary, but the Church of Holiness voted it down. Wouldn’t vote a penny for me. And me and Jim Thistles was already talking about all the drinks we were going to have there.
Anyhow, I got to go. They are going to let Joe Bill go home tonight and I need to give him a ride. It’s just a shame he can’t sellabrate the election the way he should. Have a good night everybody.
joe matarotz
November 4th, 2009
5:53 pm
PS Go Yankees!
Paul
November 4th, 2009
5:54 pm
So. The Americans were convicted of kidnapping. Not facilitating torture.
Question: will the Obama Administration halt the removal of anyone from a foreign country without going through normal extradition-type proceedings?
It would appear, by following the law, there would be no time or place for such actions by US intelligence agents.
Yet the Obama Administration continues rendition?
Or were the US operatives convicted because a third party inflicted torture on the suspect? If so, why were those not specifications in the charges? Could it be… because that was not against the law? So we are okay with a foreign court convicting Americans because of something they did but were not charged with?
Not trying to be difficult here, but this is a most interesting case.
Fun, too.
Dusty
November 4th, 2009
5:54 pm
Hey, I kinda like the Italians. They built all those ruins like the colosium and the aquducts and the good statues like David and Mona Lisa and Mario Lanza and the three tenors and the Vatican and Venus diMilo and opera up the wazoo …sooooo…..what would we be without them. Barbarians, of course!!!
Anyway, they are just being politically correct as is required these days. They will get over it as soon as the terrorists kill a few more Italians.
Now off to pork chops and blackeye peas and other good stuff. Yes!!!
getalife
November 4th, 2009
5:55 pm
Dusty,
Italians and Sicilians get along as well as cons and libs. Sicilians probably do not like this conviction.
Jay,
Yup.
Parody troll.
AmVet,
Your team will probably win but I bet on the Phillies to repeat.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: Ate Up With Envy mmm, mmmm, mmmmm!
November 4th, 2009
5:56 pm
It’s all about forgive and forget, ain’t it bookman? You’d empty out gitmo in a minute wouldn’t ya?
Well, forgiveness, at least as long as you weren’t trying to protect America.
Or you are America.
Liberals still turn purple over the supposed horrors the founding fathers unleashed upon the world but the real mass murderers, they sit in judgment of us.
Parody? Your whole world view is a parody.
josef nix
November 4th, 2009
5:59 pm
JAY–since you appear to be up here, just what WAS the point in the thread below. I take it there’s a new memo out…tacky, my boy, just plain tacky…
md
November 4th, 2009
6:00 pm
Off topic, but the Yankees are the open and shut case for the abolishment of Baseballs anti-trust exemption. Leave it to the “greatest team ever” to ruin the game.
Nothing Is Free
November 4th, 2009
6:02 pm
I wonder if they will put Obama on trial for the deaths of civilians in Afghanistan, or since we are now sending military prisoners to countries where they pour acid in their eyes, if they will try him for war crimes?
Don’t laugh, liberals. Obama has no respect in most countries around the world. They would try him just as quickly as they would try Bush or Rumsfeld.
Paul
November 4th, 2009
6:02 pm
Any indictments from the Clinton era on the horizon?
I Report (-: You Whine )-: Ate Up With Envy mmm, mmmm, mmmmm!
November 4th, 2009
6:03 pm
During the 10AM ET hour of America’s Newsroom on Fox News Channel, fill-in co-host Martha Maccallum told viewers what President Obama watched on election night while Democrats suffered big losses in New Jersey and Virginia: “Robert Gibbs said, well, he was actually watching, you know, the HBO special about his year-long campaign and how it all went.”
Nero, baby, mmm, mmmm, mmmmm!
AmVet
November 4th, 2009
6:06 pm
You know, Jay, I had a bad feeling about that one. You being a BoSox fan and all.
And though I tried really hard to keep my big mouth shut during the playoffs, I just couldn’t wait til the Bronx Bombers wrapped it all up. (IF they do.)
Just as I discovered the NYY in 1965 they tanked. They finished dead last in 1966 and stunk for many years. But I still loved them. Then in 76, Voila! While stationed overseas I stayed up til the wee hours of the morning to listen on Armed Forced Radio Network as the Big Red Machine destroyed them in four.
I have been through the ups AND downs. And do not like the jump on the bandwagon yankee fans at all.
I just have three almost outdated words for you sir!
Who’s your daddy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y07V3tSqgr0
josef nix
November 4th, 2009
6:06 pm
“Americans ought to put themselves in the position of the Italians, asking how we would respond if the Russians or the Chinese or even the Italians kidnapped people off American streets and smuggled them out of the country. I don’t think it would exactly go over very well.”
I agree with this.
josef nix
November 4th, 2009
6:09 pm
The Italians? The only people on earth for whom opera is folk music…can’t run a government worth a flip, but they do know how to live the good life…
Paul
November 4th, 2009
6:10 pm
Hello?
Doesn’t anyone want to come out and play?
Gov Option Done Deal!
November 4th, 2009
6:11 pm
Americans kidnapped a lot of people off the streets of the USA during Bush and renditioned them WHO WERE INNOCENT AND THE BUSH AND OBAMA ADMINISTRATIONS ARE FIGHTING THEIR LAWSUITS USING THE STATE SECRETS DOCTRINE. This is going on right now. Wake up Jay Bookman and get out more–read some real newspapers.
Nothing Is Free
November 4th, 2009
6:12 pm
josef
With all the people grabbed by the mob, Russian mafia and oriental gangs, not to mention the bloods, the crips and the Hell’s Angels, how would you tell who was grabbed by the Italian Secret Police?
Probably happens all the time. This is just political showboating.
I like Ferraris, so they have have their silly little trail.
Normal
November 4th, 2009
6:14 pm
AmVet, started out life as a Yankee fan, but in ‘57 the Braves whipped them and mostly because of Hammerin’ Hank, I became a lifelong Braves fan, at least up until the strike of ‘94. Haven’t had much use for pro base ball since…but you ought to see my Grand kid Triston. He’s a mickey Mantle if I ever saw one…just sayin’
Jay
November 4th, 2009
6:15 pm
Amvet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQZTA4q2X9k
josef nix
November 4th, 2009
6:22 pm
JAY–
Still waiting to hear from you on the purpose of the post below…to what end?
AmVet
November 4th, 2009
6:22 pm
getalife, I was truly shocked that the Yanks were favored. (right?)
I would have though the Phils were 2 to ones…
Normal, that must have been something. Back to back seven gamers with each side taking one championship.
I made a quiet post recently noting what would have been the Mick’s 78th birthday.
And I too was highly PO’d after 94. And think the game has been harmed greatly by the DH, Japanese sized ballparks and umps taking the strike zone hostage.
But it’s still the national pastime, my true religion and I love it…
Normal
November 4th, 2009
6:22 pm
josef nix
November 4th, 2009
6:09 pm
Josef, they make a pretty good wine too.
Road Scholar
November 4th, 2009
6:23 pm
Getalife: Ciao!
Taxpayer
November 4th, 2009
6:23 pm
But we all know that Republicans are devout followers of the rule of law. Republicans know no bounds.
Paul
November 4th, 2009
6:25 pm
Taxpayer
Really?
5:35
5:54
Wanna play?
Jay
November 4th, 2009
6:25 pm
Josef, I think it was pretty well hashed over in 180-plus comments if you care to read through them. Marco Rubio was making a veiled reference to Crist’s sexuality that voters in Florida would understand very well.
Normal
November 4th, 2009
6:25 pm
AmVet,
But it’s still the national pastime, my true religion and I love it…
I can dig it, but the gomers on the pro circuit have forgotten the “National Pastime” bit. I wtch the kids play now and there I can see the passion for the game. God, those kids do love it.
josef nix
November 4th, 2009
6:30 pm
Normal–
And after being greeted with that thread below, believe me, I’ve got a bottle uncorked. Boy did I get an education on just how many Maine-Ima Gonna-liberals we’ve got around here, snicker, snicker. My joy, joy, joy just took a day off. Oh, well, I suppose I need to remember my place and be cute and witty…
josef nix
November 4th, 2009
6:31 pm
Jay, oh believe you me I read the rehash and, as a radicial Frenchman once put it in the Dreyfuss days, J’accuse…
Jay
November 4th, 2009
6:32 pm
Have at it, mon ami.
Paul
November 4th, 2009
6:33 pm
josef
I spoke a while ago with a friend who worked in FL state gov’t a couple years ago. At the level where he served at the pleasure of the governor. I related the Senate campaign and Rubio’s innuendo. (One of the posters said Crist’s orientation never occurred to conservatives. Something like that). I asked him if it ever came up, if it was ever a source of speculation or talk. He said ‘yeah, occasionally, and no one cared.’
Progress
PS my friend is not what you’d call the most liberal, but he is pretty much a live and let live type.
Normal
November 4th, 2009
6:39 pm
Josef, I have a pot of “Hobo Stew” going and I’m about to uncork a bottle of “Three Buck Chuck” to go with it. I remember my Granny telling me that “Hobo Stew” was a Depression staple. It was what ever you could find to go into the pot kind of meal. I insist on onion, okra, sliced into medallions, and bell peppers. after that corn, field peas, potatoes, Lima beans, whatever. Add tomato paste, one jalapeno, and a polish, or Italian, or kielbasa sausage to the mix and slow cook all day. Cornbread on the side for soppin’ and…umm, umm, good. The best part is the slow cooking. the whole house has the aroma permeating throughout it. gotta love it…yummy!
DoggoneGA
November 4th, 2009
6:42 pm
“I asked him if it ever came up, if it was ever a source of speculation or talk. He said ‘yeah, occasionally, and no one cared.’”
Uh huh. If it “comes up” SOMEONE cares enough to bring it up.
josef nix
November 4th, 2009
6:43 pm
JAY–
Okay, I will at your invitation and, I beg indulgence for the knee-jerk at work here. Just what was the purpose of that thread? Nothing more than a snicker snicker, heh, heh…and you got what you set out to get. I have spent a lifetime seeing “my” people trotted out for a locker room chuckle. I don’t expect better as a general rule, but I DID expect better of you. It was “cute” all right. And on the day the Maine vote came in? While we’re still waiting, waiting and waiting on DADT? Yeah, perfect timing. Oh, on second thought, why bother? I should be grateful to get such an insight into “how far we’ve come.” Deja vu all over again. I feel just like I did back in benighted Mississippi in the late 1960s. That’s how I FEEL…you can be as dismissive as you wish…still, though, tacky, tacky, tacky!
Normal
November 4th, 2009
6:45 pm
Josef, You have “Buds” all around you…Lean on us…just sayin’
Paul
November 4th, 2009
6:47 pm
DoggoneGA
Of course someone cared, silly! He’s the governor. They’re interested in their boss. He was engaged, then he wasn’t. Or were you going for the negative?
Hey! Wanna have a go at 5:35 or 5:54? It is on topic, after all -
Taxpayer
November 4th, 2009
6:48 pm
Paul,
Got any sevens.
jconservative
November 4th, 2009
6:48 pm
FYI
The U.S. Senate Wednesday unanimously approved legislation extending federal jobless benefits for up to 20 weeks….
The centerpiece of the legislation is a move to continue federal jobless benefits for 14 weeks for unemployed Americans in all 50 states, and for 20 weeks in states with jobless rates higher than a three-month average of 8.5%.
josef nix
November 4th, 2009
6:49 pm
Doggone
“Uh huh. If it “comes up” SOMEONE cares enough to bring it up.”
Yeah, Jay being one of the someone…but WHY?
Normal–
Mama called it “slop soup!” You could count on it every Thursday night. Sometimes the best stuff you ever put in your mouth, and other times exactly what the name implied!
PAUL
Read your posts below. Thank you.
Notice no posts on some of the innuendo emminating from the Windy City…
Jay
November 4th, 2009
6:49 pm
Fair enough, Josef. That’s just not how I saw it.
I saw it as an snarky attempt by Rubio to reap political benefit from homophobia, much as race is injected into campaigns through use of code words and images. I thought it should be noted as such.
DoggoneGA
November 4th, 2009
6:50 pm
“Of course someone cared, silly! ”
“and no one cared”
So…are you admitting that your friend lied to you?
Paul
November 4th, 2009
6:50 pm
DoggoneGA
Notice the level at which I said he worked. Sometimes it’s nothing more than one person at that level saying to another “I was asked such and such. What’s our policy on responses?”
See, just because someone cared doesn’t mean it’s what you thought -
Finn McCool
November 4th, 2009
6:51 pm
And it’s also worth asking how we individual americans would respond if a country invaded us, “accidentally” killed many of our relatives with “smart bombs” and then told us they were going to tell us how to live so that we would “be free” the rest of our lives.
You don’t get the LIBERAL mind until you can answer that truthfully. The liberal mind can think through that and understand the situation.
I, for one, would be what they are calling an “insurgent”. I’d be protecting my family and my neighbors (to hell with the land and my business at that point in time!)
anyway, blogging from Wytheville, VA. On my way to Monticello tomorrow and Antietam battlefield on friday.
Gov Option Done Deal!
November 4th, 2009
6:51 pm
After Suffering Humiliating Defeat in NY-23, Sarah Palin and Teabaggers Declare Victory
Public option and single payer supporter John Garamendi won in California, and health care reform and public option supporter Bill Owens won in New York. That’s two more votes for Dems in the House. Dennis Moore, a Blue Dog from Kansas, just came out in support of health care reform and the public option. The two Dems ran on the Obama agenda and in both special elections for the House, the Dems won last night.
NY23 hasn’t voted a Democrat into Congress since the 19th century, but the wingnuts here of course are ignorant of that fact.
In NJ and Virginia, Obama voters, frustrated with his hesitation to define health care stayed home. As was pointed out Virginia was purpole, and governors don’t vote for health care reform in Congress last time I checked. Christie remains under federal investigation. Wingnuts like WSJ John Fund whined that ACCORN was going to steal the NJ election, but ACCRN wasn’t even working in NJ during the 2009 election cycle. WSJ likes to make things up just like IBD.
Last night, despite the efforts of Sarah Palin, the Club for Growth, Fred Thompson, Dick Armey and various teabaggers, NY-23 went Democratic for the first time since the 19th century.
The wingnut reaction to this calamity? We’ve always been at war with Eurasia.
Erick Erickson:
This is a huge win for conservatives.
The Anchor Baby:
Hoffman may have lost narrowly, but NY-23 is a much broader victory for conservatives who believe the Republican Party should stand for core limited government principles.
David Brody:
Doug Hoffman may have lost but conservatives across the country won.
Some Random Teabagger:
Even in the Hoffman loss, Conservatives won.
Sarah Palin:
The race for New York’s 23rd District is not over, just postponed until 2010
Paul
November 4th, 2009
6:52 pm
Taxpayer
Sigh. Looks like that’s the only kinda’ playin’s gonna happen. Thanks anyway.
josef
You’re welcome.
DoggoneGA
November 4th, 2009
6:52 pm
“Hey! Wanna have a go at 5:35 or 5:54? It is on topic, after all -”
Sure…if they were completely innocent, they would have been there with reams of evidence about where they were, what they were doing at the time…and dozens of hand-picked lawyers to defend them. I find it telling, and did at the time I first heard of this, that there was NO ATTEMPT to defend them.
josef nix
November 4th, 2009
6:52 pm
NORMAL–
Thanks for the reminder. What really intrigued me was just who my “buds” were. Some of our more “open minded” might want to look at that, as Jay puts it, “if you care to read through them.”
Gov Option Done Deal!
November 4th, 2009
6:53 pm
GOP Continues to be the Ignorant Comedy Central Party with a narrowing base.
DoggoneGA
November 4th, 2009
6:54 pm
“Fair enough, Josef. That’s just not how I saw it.”
Doesn’t surprise me. I read it as a warning to be careful about political advertising of any kind. Not that I need to be careful, I never believe a word of them anyway.
Paul
November 4th, 2009
6:54 pm
DoggoneGA
Lied? How? Or are you into your “let me get hung up on my particular definition of a word or expression and keep it going as long as I can’ mode?
Note: when someone asks “how are you?” they probably don’t care. It’s a greeting. But I wouldn’t say all your co-workers are lying to you.
Finn McCool
November 4th, 2009
6:54 pm
By the way, anyone know if any of the smaller battlefields along the I-81 corridor are worth stopping at? I know Thomas Jackson made his name here but I don’t know that any of the sites are worth the stop.
Also, is the skyline drive through the park all its cracked up to be – even after the leaves have peaked?
DoggoneGA
November 4th, 2009
6:55 pm
“See, just because someone cared doesn’t mean it’s what you thought”
Polish off those mind reading skills and tell me what I thought…since you seem to think you know better than I do.
DoggoneGA
November 4th, 2009
6:56 pm
“Lied? How?”
You’re not that dumb, you don’t need it spelled out for you.
Normal
November 4th, 2009
6:56 pm
Finn…Antietam or Sharpeburg…General Lee’s first attempt to invade the North. I have always wanted to visit the battlefields as they happened. I hope you get a chance to visit the site…
josef nix
November 4th, 2009
6:57 pm
“I saw it as an snarky attempt by Rubio to reap political benefit from homophobia, much as race is injected into campaigns through use of code words and images. I thought it should be noted as such.”
And, sir, you jumped on the snarky bandwagon. I’m sure that’s not how you saw it. No reason you should. The target wasn’t painted on your, I assume, straight b*tt. Well, it was mine.
Paul
November 4th, 2009
6:57 pm
DoggoneGA
[[if they were completely innocent, they would have]]
Don’t you believe in innocent until proven guilty?
Anyhow, that was an answer to a question I didn’t ask.
Care to have another go at it?
Gov Option Done Deal!
November 4th, 2009
6:57 pm
Got news for ya Josef. We’re waiting and waiting on Health Care Reform while Harry Reid plays chicken with the White House. Time to runover the GOP and pass with50 votes and reconciliation. House votes Saturday. As to DADT it’s been explained to you repeatedly that’s set for January and Obama met with the despicable Leiberman to push that through in Senate Armed Forces. It’s already been introduced in the House and the votes are close to 218. But little real world details are part of your drama queen agenda sometimes.
Gov Option Done Deal!
November 4th, 2009
6:58 pm
No pun with the queen josef–it’s a pededstrian phrase.
Normal
November 4th, 2009
6:59 pm
Josef, from all of us who are…
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wftbahypdAA
Gov Option Done Deal!
November 4th, 2009
6:59 pm
How does GITMO where many innocent people have been held in solitary for going on 9 years with no charges and no trial and DOJ from Bush and Obama sitting on their asses comport with “innocent” until proven guilty Paul?
Paul
November 4th, 2009
7:00 pm
DoggoneGA 6:56
Thank you! But for an answer, see my earlier responses. The level he was working, how inquiries are handled and what an expression means to the nonliteralists among us.
Not to be snarky, but this is what grabs your attention in that whole issue?!!?
Taxpayer
November 4th, 2009
7:00 pm
Paul, what’s your take on Jay’s question.
Jay
November 4th, 2009
7:01 pm
And who painted that target, Josef?
Me, or Rubio?
Excuse me while I head home for the evening.
josef nix
November 4th, 2009
7:02 pm
FINN–
Let me go over my own “favorites” up that way. There are so many. Many of the smaller, more off the beaten track ones really have some good, well informed docents who relish to opportunity to tell you about what happened there…Sharpesburg means a lot to me as two of my great-grandfathers were wounded there..though Jay doesn’t hold them in very high regard, the local SCv’s in the area are a good resource….
Normal
November 4th, 2009
7:02 pm
It’s chow time and I probably won’t be back tonight so I will leave you with this for your pleasent dreams wish…you can thank me later!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odcJ-vS22rI
AmVet
November 4th, 2009
7:02 pm
josef,
Hang in there brother.
I can’t imagine how tough things are for some, just cuz most of us can’t seem to get past Ozzie & Harriet…
josef nix
November 4th, 2009
7:03 pm
JAY
Who painted the target? You did. You posted it. Snicker, snicker. Have a good evening. When Unmentionable gets home, I’ll try to, too,
Gov Option Done Deal!
November 4th, 2009
7:03 pm
Boy them polls were teaming with voters in Jawjaw yesterday. No sign at the poll. 3 people voting and 20 machines. Poll workers outnumbered voters 10 to 1. Yeah them Jawjaws is realluh pluged in to votin’ and democracy. The turnout must have been less than 10% in the ATL or is it not the ATL anymore if Mary Norwood beats the Kassim?
Paul
November 4th, 2009
7:05 pm
Gov’t
Care to answer my questions before jumping in with yours?
(It’s the difference between criminal law and warfare. Different systems. Or should be. But Bush and company tried to meld them and we have a mess. Obama’s doing no better.)
Wanna have a go at the earlier questions?
Gov Option Done Deal!
November 4th, 2009
7:05 pm
Josef I don’t see how you can hold Jay responsible for a staightforward depiction of an anti-gay slur by Rubio. That’s part of the job of a newspaper reporter/commenter.
Marsh
November 4th, 2009
7:05 pm
Never mind Italy, Spain’s the one with the Inquisition – redux, all arranged especially for Shrub, Shooter and Rummy.
What’s the punishment for torturers in Spain?
The Spainsh Inquisition – redux, all arranged especially for Dick, Rummy et al.
Paul
November 4th, 2009
7:08 pm
Taxpayer
My take is at 5:35. Then I had a followup at 5:54.
I generally try to address the topic in my first response.
I see a lot of implications in this situation.
Finn McCool
November 4th, 2009
7:08 pm
Why is Chicago called the Windy city?
Note, replies involving weather will only be humiliated.
Gov Option Done Deal!
November 4th, 2009
7:09 pm
Paul–
I asked a question. I didn’t recall any questions posed to me by you. And we have a lot of people picked up and not tried and not charged right now unless you want to be crazy enough to assume if the US picks you up you’re guilty. We have a lot of lawsuits now by people where that was done, who were at Gitmo and are now free, and who were renditioned. The Obama and Bush administration is trying to use State Secrets to bat the cases down and they aren’t succeeding. The only difference is that the Obama administration’s court filings have been way to the RIGHT OF THE BUSHIES.
Actually, in case you haven’t been keeping up Paul, the Supreme Court has put those cases now in the venue of criminal law and will continue to do so in a pending case.
I know this must be a shock to you but the Supreme Court ruled on this over a year ago. Glad to wake you up. It’s 2009. Try http://www.scotusblog.com