Italians convict U.S. officials, agents in kidnapping case
MILAN — An Italian court on Wednesday convicted 22 CIA operatives and a U.S. Air Force colonel of orchestrating the kidnapping of a Muslim cleric here in 2003 and flying him to Egypt, where he said he was tortured.
In rendering the verdict, the judge in the case, Oscar Magi, acquitted three other Americans, including the former Rome station chief for the CIA, saying they were covered by diplomatic immunity.
The Americans were all tried in absentia but were represented throughout the trial by defense attorneys, most of them court-appointed. The U.S. defendants who were convicted each received a five-year prison sentence, with the exception of Robert Seldon Lady, the CIA’s former chief in Milan, who was sentenced to eight years for overseeing the kidnapping plot.
Americans ought to put themselves in the position of the Italians, asking how we would respond if the Russians or the Chinese or even the Italians kidnapped people off American streets and smuggled them out of the country. I don’t think it would exactly go over very well.
I do think there can be a time and a place for such operations. If we have identified a verified terrorist in a country that refuses to cooperate with us, I would have little problem grabbing that person and bringing him here for trial and incarceration. If it’s somebody we know has killed Americans, somebody who has been given shelter by that other country, it wouldn’t bother me if fatal force became necessary.
But in this case the Muslim cleric was not a verified terrorist, Italy was an ally not an enemy, and the captive was not brought here to trial. He was sent to Egypt where he was tortured. We knew or at least had every reason to know that’s exactly what would happen to him there.
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359 comments Add your comment
Dave R.
November 4th, 2009
4:52 pm
Yes, but was the terrorist accused of being gay, Jay? That seems to be the most important thing in your life today.
Dave R.
November 4th, 2009
4:52 pm
First!
Mrs. Godzilla
November 4th, 2009
4:55 pm
Isn’t Spain looking at Bush, Cheney and Rumsfeld?
Is there a “offense fund” somewhere in need of our checks?
We’d love to help.
joe matarotz
November 4th, 2009
4:56 pm
Whatever happened to innocent until proven guilty, Jay? Do you know for sure that these charges are true and the defendants are guilty? If so, how do you know?
Matilda
November 4th, 2009
5:01 pm
joe m, Jay reported to us the facts: An Italian court convicted these people in abstentia. He didn’t claim he was there. He asked us to think about how we’d respond of the shoe were on the other foot, but if you don’t want to think, it’s five o’clock now and you can go have juice and cookies intead.
Jay
November 4th, 2009
5:04 pm
Joe, read the story. They were tried in court and convicted and the evidence of their involvement was overwhelming. They had cell phone records, seized computers and a whole lot of other documentation proving their involvement.
md
November 4th, 2009
5:08 pm
The spooks play a different game than the rest of the world, and every country has a group of spooks. I’ll give mine the benefit of doubt since I have no clue about the inner workings of spookville. As the saying goes “you want us on that wall”.
Skip
November 4th, 2009
5:14 pm
Rules are whatever we say they are, unless we change our minds.
AmVet
November 4th, 2009
5:20 pm
The serially impeachable BushCo administration, from the top on down through its army of goose-stepping minions, had very little use for the rule of law. Certainly not when it didn’t allow them to do what they wanted.
But that has NOTHING, absolutely NOTHING to do with explaining what has happened at the polls since then.
(I’m still chuckling from downstairs…)
LOL…
getalife
November 4th, 2009
5:21 pm
My homies following the rule of law makes me proud.
Dusty
November 4th, 2009
5:25 pm
Awww, Bookman gave up with 184 comments on the last subject. Just as I was wanting to see a picture of him and Obama. Now it is the Eye’Talians. Bookman is going far afield to be sure we get what he thinks is good news. Must be awful hard to find some “dirt” on liberals. He never finds any!!
Psst…did you know that the CIA kidnapped the Lindberg baby? They just found the evidence at DNC headquarters. A note with the evidence read “Bush made us do it!”
Pogo
November 4th, 2009
5:30 pm
Tough knookies. To root out the bad ones we will, inevitably, make mistakes (if indeed this was a mistake). I am certainly not saying that this was a mistake because I don’t know this particular cleric’s rap sheet. Assuming that this was a mistake, they are unfortunate but Jay this is not a perfect world. You state that he was tortured in Egypt but who is making that accusation? A bit vague don’t you think? I understand you must must comply with liberal idealogy and that you must immediately assume that America was in the wrong, but come on. Do you really, REALLY know enough about this to make an issue of it? This could have been a very, very bad man and our people were convicted by just another established liberal socialist European country who, like yourself, take great pride in “sticking it in America’s eye”. I can’t even imagine the energy it must take to search for things to hate about your country like you liberals do.
Common Sense
November 4th, 2009
5:31 pm
Hey …… the Israeli’s do a lot worse than that and more power to them. It’s why they still have a country. If it’s o.k. to lob cruise missiles into Afghanistan (and many other places over the years) then it’s o.k. to kidnap a Muslim cleric.
P.S. I’m not eating pizza for week in protest of our Italian knuckleheads !
I Report (-: You Whine )-: Ate Up With Envy mmm, mmmm, mmmmm!
November 4th, 2009
5:32 pm
First of all, we need to define “torture,” us usual.
And I can remember a case where a couple hundred Americans were kidnapped on their airplane and killed shortly thereafter. Ackmed should feel lucky.
~~~~~
Isn’t it cool to see the moonbats on the bookman blog and the Speaker of the House of Representatives as the only ones touting the same ridiculous idea?-
PELOSI: ‘WE WON LAST NIGHT’…
Maybe that’s why we are losing so badly in Afghanistan, maybe these libs don’t know what victory is?
They thinks we kickin ass, ew.
joe matarotz
November 4th, 2009
5:32 pm
Jay, I was particularly intrigued by the evidence on the computer. They had flight schedules downloaded, even though they were using military transportation. So what do you think, they couldn’t get a movie flight on Alitalia? So they decided to take him to Germany to throw off the pursuers. And a daring daylight snatch, involving at least 25 people (23 convicted Americans and 2 Italians). They must have pulled up in a stealth municipal bus. And then the star witness was unable to get to the trial, even though the trial lasted 3 years.
You may buy this pig sight unseen, but it doesn’t pass the sniff test. Of course, times being what they are, the CIA might have lowered their standards for employment. It is possible the collective group IQ was less than room temperature. Or, just maybe, the Italians have an axe to grind with the US Government and this is the route they chose.
AmVet
November 4th, 2009
5:33 pm
And Jay is right.
The most zealous of you Bush apologists, like up and down, are they type who have no problems stepping on other people’s rights. Here, there, anywhere.
Not until you finally figure out the lawless genie’s out of the bottle and you get stomped.
Mistakes, my arse…
I’m gonna keep asking – when did the GOP become the anti-law and order party?
Dusty
November 4th, 2009
5:34 pm
getalife,
I know you are proud. It isn’t often that those Italian Sicilians are on the side of the law.
Paul
November 4th, 2009
5:35 pm
We wouldn’t care for it. If they were American citizens. If they were, say, Chechens and a Russian team grabbed them, we’d protest, but that’s probably as far as it would go.
‘Course, the Obama Administration has continued rendition. But the difference, if I understand it, is that they will get assurances the detainees aren’t tortured.
So let me get this. We have a suspect. We go the rendition route for interrogation. Send him to Egypt. And we think these people are going to be nice? No loud music? No yelling at them? No threatening gestures? (all that torture stuff). Because they’ve given assurances and our diplomats will check in on them from time to time?
Help me out here… if we think the suspect has information we need but we can’t get it so we send them to another country for interrogation, but that country will not do the things we consider torture but we think they’ll get the information when we can’t….
????????????????
I think there must be a rest of the story.
Normal
November 4th, 2009
5:37 pm
This was a trial that should have been tried here. What does that say about us?
Normal
November 4th, 2009
5:39 pm
Common Sense, “P.S. I’m not eating pizza for week in protest of our Italian knuckleheads
I don’t know, man…I’ll give up ziti, but pizza…ouch!
I Report (-: You Whine )-: Ate Up With Envy mmm, mmmm, mmmmm!
November 4th, 2009
5:40 pm
I can also remember when these fascist Italians hooked up with the Nazis and went ramapging all around Europe, Russia and wait, no, not the Middle East, yes, they did.
Anybody wanna guess the damage they inflicted not in sissy boy torture, were talking murder now.
In the tens of millions.
And bookman sides up with them against America.
Seig Heil, jackboot!
Jay
November 4th, 2009
5:45 pm
Reporter, there are days I would swear that you’re a parody artist along the lines of Redneck, but even better.
This is such a day.
AmVet
November 4th, 2009
5:45 pm
Normal, that was absolutely beautiful how you handled mike downstairs.
That guy has some real issues.
I love how the always succinct but awesome getalife says so much in so few words. I wish I had that talent.
And I know this may PO you my brother, but Go Yankees! (A lifelong fan who ain’t giving up now…)
I Report (-: You Whine )-: Ate Up With Envy mmm, mmmm, mmmmm!
November 4th, 2009
5:46 pm
For my sole comment on the last blog, 70% of Americans have voted against that sort of behavior.
ewwwwwwwwwwwww.
Jay
November 4th, 2009
5:50 pm
I’m thinking I need to add the words “Go Yankees” to my list of banned terms.
joe matarotz
November 4th, 2009
5:52 pm
I searched for the transcript of the trial and discovered some fascinating testimony from the Italian chief investigator.
In sworn testimony he said, “Fredo’ Cockatoo dello S.A., non un pappagallo.” (Fred’s a cockatoo, not a parrot.)
And his summation of the case was masterful, “Se voi can’ la t fa il tempo, don’ la t fa il crimine.” (If you can’t do the time, don’t do the crime.)
An open and shut case if ever I saw one. those guys are lucky they weren’t sentenced to sleep with the fishes.
Redneck Convert (R--and proud of it)
November 4th, 2009
5:52 pm
Well, I know you missed me but I was out all day taking care of Joe Bill. He watched the election returns last night and kept drinking PBR and then mixed it with some shine he bought to sellabrate. His wife called me early this a.m. saying Joe Bill was out of it and she was afraid he was dead. Anyway, I went over there and hauled him to Northside Hospitle in Forsysth and they said it was alcohol poisoning. He started coming around about 1 today and the first words out of his mouth was Is Obama Impeached Yet? I had to tell him no and besides, guvners don’t get a vote in Congress and we lost a seat there. Good thing he can’t get his hands on some booze in the hospitle.
I’m against these Italians convicting our CIA. The CIA people didn’t even show up for the trial and you can’t convict a man that ain’t in court. It’s Unconstitutional. Anyhow, I’m sure this guy that’s accusing them enjoyed his vacation in Egypt. I tried to get there myself as a missionary, but the Church of Holiness voted it down. Wouldn’t vote a penny for me. And me and Jim Thistles was already talking about all the drinks we were going to have there.
Anyhow, I got to go. They are going to let Joe Bill go home tonight and I need to give him a ride. It’s just a shame he can’t sellabrate the election the way he should. Have a good night everybody.
joe matarotz
November 4th, 2009
5:53 pm
PS Go Yankees!
Paul
November 4th, 2009
5:54 pm
So. The Americans were convicted of kidnapping. Not facilitating torture.
Question: will the Obama Administration halt the removal of anyone from a foreign country without going through normal extradition-type proceedings?
It would appear, by following the law, there would be no time or place for such actions by US intelligence agents.
Yet the Obama Administration continues rendition?
Or were the US operatives convicted because a third party inflicted torture on the suspect? If so, why were those not specifications in the charges? Could it be… because that was not against the law? So we are okay with a foreign court convicting Americans because of something they did but were not charged with?
Not trying to be difficult here, but this is a most interesting case.
Fun, too.
Dusty
November 4th, 2009
5:54 pm
Hey, I kinda like the Italians. They built all those ruins like the colosium and the aquducts and the good statues like David and Mona Lisa and Mario Lanza and the three tenors and the Vatican and Venus diMilo and opera up the wazoo …sooooo…..what would we be without them. Barbarians, of course!!!
Anyway, they are just being politically correct as is required these days. They will get over it as soon as the terrorists kill a few more Italians.
Now off to pork chops and blackeye peas and other good stuff. Yes!!!
getalife
November 4th, 2009
5:55 pm
Dusty,
Italians and Sicilians get along as well as cons and libs. Sicilians probably do not like this conviction.
Jay,
Yup.
Parody troll.
AmVet,
Your team will probably win but I bet on the Phillies to repeat.
I Report (-: You Whine )-: Ate Up With Envy mmm, mmmm, mmmmm!
November 4th, 2009
5:56 pm
It’s all about forgive and forget, ain’t it bookman? You’d empty out gitmo in a minute wouldn’t ya?
Well, forgiveness, at least as long as you weren’t trying to protect America.
Or you are America.
Liberals still turn purple over the supposed horrors the founding fathers unleashed upon the world but the real mass murderers, they sit in judgment of us.
Parody? Your whole world view is a parody.
josef nix
November 4th, 2009
5:59 pm
JAY–since you appear to be up here, just what WAS the point in the thread below. I take it there’s a new memo out…tacky, my boy, just plain tacky…
md
November 4th, 2009
6:00 pm
Off topic, but the Yankees are the open and shut case for the abolishment of Baseballs anti-trust exemption. Leave it to the “greatest team ever” to ruin the game.
Nothing Is Free
November 4th, 2009
6:02 pm
I wonder if they will put Obama on trial for the deaths of civilians in Afghanistan, or since we are now sending military prisoners to countries where they pour acid in their eyes, if they will try him for war crimes?
Don’t laugh, liberals. Obama has no respect in most countries around the world. They would try him just as quickly as they would try Bush or Rumsfeld.
Paul
November 4th, 2009
6:02 pm
Any indictments from the Clinton era on the horizon?
I Report (-: You Whine )-: Ate Up With Envy mmm, mmmm, mmmmm!
November 4th, 2009
6:03 pm
During the 10AM ET hour of America’s Newsroom on Fox News Channel, fill-in co-host Martha Maccallum told viewers what President Obama watched on election night while Democrats suffered big losses in New Jersey and Virginia: “Robert Gibbs said, well, he was actually watching, you know, the HBO special about his year-long campaign and how it all went.”
Nero, baby, mmm, mmmm, mmmmm!
AmVet
November 4th, 2009
6:06 pm
You know, Jay, I had a bad feeling about that one. You being a BoSox fan and all.
And though I tried really hard to keep my big mouth shut during the playoffs, I just couldn’t wait til the Bronx Bombers wrapped it all up. (IF they do.)
Just as I discovered the NYY in 1965 they tanked. They finished dead last in 1966 and stunk for many years. But I still loved them. Then in 76, Voila! While stationed overseas I stayed up til the wee hours of the morning to listen on Armed Forced Radio Network as the Big Red Machine destroyed them in four.
I have been through the ups AND downs. And do not like the jump on the bandwagon yankee fans at all.
I just have three almost outdated words for you sir!
Who’s your daddy?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y07V3tSqgr0
josef nix
November 4th, 2009
6:06 pm
“Americans ought to put themselves in the position of the Italians, asking how we would respond if the Russians or the Chinese or even the Italians kidnapped people off American streets and smuggled them out of the country. I don’t think it would exactly go over very well.”
I agree with this.
josef nix
November 4th, 2009
6:09 pm
The Italians? The only people on earth for whom opera is folk music…can’t run a government worth a flip, but they do know how to live the good life…
Paul
November 4th, 2009
6:10 pm
Hello?
Doesn’t anyone want to come out and play?
Gov Option Done Deal!
November 4th, 2009
6:11 pm
Americans kidnapped a lot of people off the streets of the USA during Bush and renditioned them WHO WERE INNOCENT AND THE BUSH AND OBAMA ADMINISTRATIONS ARE FIGHTING THEIR LAWSUITS USING THE STATE SECRETS DOCTRINE. This is going on right now. Wake up Jay Bookman and get out more–read some real newspapers.
Nothing Is Free
November 4th, 2009
6:12 pm
josef
With all the people grabbed by the mob, Russian mafia and oriental gangs, not to mention the bloods, the crips and the Hell’s Angels, how would you tell who was grabbed by the Italian Secret Police?
Probably happens all the time. This is just political showboating.
I like Ferraris, so they have have their silly little trail.
Normal
November 4th, 2009
6:14 pm
AmVet, started out life as a Yankee fan, but in ‘57 the Braves whipped them and mostly because of Hammerin’ Hank, I became a lifelong Braves fan, at least up until the strike of ‘94. Haven’t had much use for pro base ball since…but you ought to see my Grand kid Triston. He’s a mickey Mantle if I ever saw one…just sayin’
Jay
November 4th, 2009
6:15 pm
Amvet:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UQZTA4q2X9k
josef nix
November 4th, 2009
6:22 pm
JAY–
Still waiting to hear from you on the purpose of the post below…to what end?
AmVet
November 4th, 2009
6:22 pm
getalife, I was truly shocked that the Yanks were favored. (right?)
I would have though the Phils were 2 to ones…
Normal, that must have been something. Back to back seven gamers with each side taking one championship.
I made a quiet post recently noting what would have been the Mick’s 78th birthday.
And I too was highly PO’d after 94. And think the game has been harmed greatly by the DH, Japanese sized ballparks and umps taking the strike zone hostage.
But it’s still the national pastime, my true religion and I love it…
Normal
November 4th, 2009
6:22 pm
josef nix
November 4th, 2009
6:09 pm
Josef, they make a pretty good wine too.
Road Scholar
November 4th, 2009
6:23 pm
Getalife: Ciao!
Taxpayer
November 4th, 2009
6:23 pm
But we all know that Republicans are devout followers of the rule of law. Republicans know no bounds.