Some wars aren’t won through killing
“No bastard ever won a war by dying for his country. You win it by making the other poor dumb bastard die for his country.”
— George C. Scott
starring as the title character in “Patton.”
“Protecting the people is the mission. The conflict will be won by persuading the people, not by destroying the enemy. … We will not win simply by killing insurgents.”
— Gen. Stanley McChrystal
U.S. commander in Afghanistan,
in a message to his troops.
While the nation’s attention has focused on additional troops requested by McChrystal for Afghanistan, the more important issue may be how he plans to use those troops.
Military leaders have said for years that we cannot kill our way to victory in places such as Iraq and Afghanistan. In this kind of war, success requires winning the support of the local people. And while the generals have sometimes had a hard time selling that message to troops and officers, it has been even more difficult to sell to the folks at home.
- George C. Scott as Gen. George S. Patton
For one thing, the idea is just … unnatural. We’re wired to see war as an elemental thing, simple, violent and starkly binary. “War is a bloody, killing business,” Patton said. “You’ve got to spill their blood, or they will spill yours.”
For Americans, the wisdom of that approach was cemented by our victory in World War II and by glorified depictions of war by Hollywood. (As far as I can tell, Patton never uttered the “bastards” quote cited above. It, too, was a Hollywood invention.)
A former Green Beret, Ranger and special ops commander, McChrystal knows and accepts the necessity of killing. In Iraq, he led the effort to track down, kill or capture scores of insurgent leaders. But his experience convinced him that while killing was necessary, success required that it be minimized.
In a recent speech, McChrystal asked his audience a simple question: If 10 insurgents are operating in an area and you kill two, how many are left? If you answer eight, you’re probably wrong.
The more likely answer, he said, would be 20, “because each one you killed has a brother, father, son and friends, who do not necessarily think that they were killed because they were doing something wrong. It does not matter — you killed them.”
And if the people you killed were innocent civilians, the number of neutrals you’ve converted into enemies grows even higher. In a country of 28 million dominated by young people — the median age of Afghans is 17.6 — those numbers don’t add up to success.
- Gen. Stanley McChrystal
To implement his strategy, McChrystal proposes to pull his troops out of armored vehicles and large bases and put them among the Afghan people. He has also changed the rules of engagement, greatly restricting the use of firepower when it might endanger Afghan civilians.
However, those and other changes will also make U.S. forces more vulnerable to attack, a fact that McChrystal concedes readily. In fact, he believes NATO forces in Afghanistan have been more concerned about protecting their personnel than about getting the job done.
That “preoccupation with force protection” tells Afghans that Westerners place a higher value on our own lives than on theirs, a perception that cripples efforts to win them to our side.
“Essentially, we and the insurgents are offering an argument for the future to the people of Afghanistan,” McChrystal says. “They will decide which argument is most attractive, most convincing and has the greatest chance of success.”
Of course, war has always meant risk. “Blood and Guts” Patton wasn’t exactly shy about putting his men in harm’s way if it brought us closer to victory. We accept the fact that in war, hundreds of troops might die trying to capture a hill or a town. But it is much harder to accept casualties inflicted trying to capture Afghan hearts and minds.
“Whether we like it or not, we have a conventional warfare culture — not just our militaries but our societies,” McChrystal says. “Our societies want to see lines on a map moving toward objectives, but you will not see that in a counterinsurgency because you do not see as clearly what is happening in people’s minds.”
McChrystal’s immediate superior, Gen. David Petraeus, has echoed that analysis repeatedly. “You can’t kill or capture your way out of a complex, industrial-strength insurgency,” he says. “The challenge in Afghanistan, as it was in Iraq, is to figure out how to reduce substantially the numbers of those who have to be killed or captured.”
Yes, it’s a strange way to fight, but it’s a strange war. And if we have a path to success, this is it.
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141 comments Add your comment
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator :-) You Whine :-(
October 9th, 2009
11:22 am
Apparently not, seeing how the new Obozo mmm, mmmm, mmmm, strategy appears to be our soldiers the ones getting killed.
How nice, I’ll bet Code Pinko is happy with that.
booger
October 9th, 2009
11:25 am
Enjoy the General’s wise words. Since these words were uttered, he has been pretty much placed under a gag order. Our commander and chief seemed to have got his nose twisted with the General’s expressing an unedited opinion. In order to foster a more transparent administration Obama now insist all statements on the war come through his office.
SOUTHERN ATL
October 9th, 2009
11:26 am
With the President receiving a PEACE prize, it is now time for a “cease fire”….What does the U.S. plan to gain from this war? We have had enough troops killed over the last eight plus years…It is time to rebuild America and not other countries!!
Joan
October 9th, 2009
11:27 am
Well, the fundamental fallacy in the whole thing is thinking that we are ever going to change the thinking of a mid-eastern culture that has been rock solid for centuries. There is a certain arrogance in that. A little study of their sociology would help people understand that. We need to get out of there, and protect our own borders. Our troops could get the illegals out of this country, secure the borders, replace TSA!
Finn McCool
October 9th, 2009
11:27 am
off topic, but….
Most people, I suspect, still have in their minds an image of America as the great land of college education, unique in the extent to which higher learning is offered to the population at large. That image used to correspond to reality. But these days young Americans are considerably less likely than young people in many other countries to graduate from college. In fact, we have a college graduation rate that’s slightly below the average across all advanced economies.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/09/opinion/09krugman.html?_r=1&hp=&adxnnl=1&adxnnlx=1255100998-G9udUx3d08dyQhxrv+UmwA
AmVet
October 9th, 2009
11:39 am
This neo-con “national security” nonsense is all a transparent ploy to cover up the real reason we keep wasting brazillions of dollars in these Stone Age shiiteholes.
The fascists and gangster capitalists demand that their underlings in Washington keep the money flowing into their coffers.
And the Republican-lite Obama is more than glad to do their bidding now. After all, they paid for his presidency and Hope and Change was just tripe for the left-wing versions of the ultra-gullible BushCo acolytes.
He’s gonna keep the killing of American GIs rolling along at an accelerated pace until…
Who the hell knows?
Salute him chest pounders and chickenhawks!
He’s one of yours, clearly was from the beginning and you’re too gutless to even admit it…
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
October 9th, 2009
11:40 am
Afghanistan’s Taliban mocked the award, saying Obama should get a Nobel prize for violence instead.
Taliban spokesman Zabihullah Mujahid said it was absurd to give a peace award to a man who had sent 21,000 extra troops to Afghanistan to escalate a war.
“The Nobel prize for peace? Obama should have won the ‘Nobel Prize for escalating violence and killing civilians’,” he told Reuters by telephone from an undisclosed location.
I always said that the Taliban were stupid and rudimentary people and they do nothing to disprove me, geez, they can’t even recognize the ally they have in Obozo, mmm, mmmm, mmmm!
jt
October 9th, 2009
11:43 am
General McChrysal states-
“That “preoccupation with force protection” tells Afghans that Westerners place a higher value on our own lives than on theirs, a perception that cripples efforts to win them to our side.”
So we should not be “preoccupied” with protecting our forces lest we send the wrong perception.
This is wrong for so many reasons.
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
October 9th, 2009
11:43 am
Does anyone really and truly believe that the liberals have any interest in fighting the war in Afghanistan? What good is it to them? They can’t bash Bush and Iraq with it anymore.
How much more obvious can it be that they are simply trying to worm their way out of the whole rotten mess?
It’s like duuuuhhhhhhh.
Gandalf, the Wise
October 9th, 2009
11:49 am
Not too bad a story Jay, I am actually impressed.
TnGelding
October 9th, 2009
11:50 am
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator
You Whine 
October 9th, 2009
11:22 am
Like they weren’t dying before? It was just off the radar.
That’s a might big IF, Jay.
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
October 9th, 2009
11:43 am
Worm as in ‘W’? Apparently Obo ain’t got no quarrel with the Taliban either. Looks like he’s leaning toward going after al Qaeda in Pakistan instead.
Normal
October 9th, 2009
11:55 am
Worth repeating…
SOUTHERN ATL
October 9th, 2009
11:26 am
With the President receiving a PEACE prize, it is now time for a “cease fire”….What does the U.S. plan to gain from this war? We have had enough troops killed over the last eight plus years…It is time to rebuild America and not other countries!!
And this: MR. PRESIDENT, BRING OUR TROOPS HOME NOW!
Turd Ferguson
October 9th, 2009
11:55 am
Personally, Im tired of the afghanistan war. Like the middle east these “civilians” have nothing other than self-interests. We should steal all there heroin, sell it on US streets and this would hopefully decrease the deficit.
I hear those afghans produce only a quality product.
Finn McCool
October 9th, 2009
11:59 am
the whole rotten mess?
Ohhh, now it’s a whole rotten mess? A few years ago it was a moral fight to ensure liberty and rid the world of terrorists. Now, it’s a rotten mess.
So, I suppose now we libs are non-patriotic because we don’t get us out of there? You wingnuts are clueless. You take your cue from idiots like Hannity and think we can’t see right through it. You think we don’t spend our days laughing at you. My 10 year old is smarter than that.
mwuahahahaha
getalife
October 9th, 2009
12:00 pm
“Protect the people” is a nation building mission.
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
October 9th, 2009
12:02 pm
Finn McFool- Don’t look now, but your side is the ones calling it a mess. I used the term because you wouldn’t know what a righteous cause was even if you fell over it.
AmVet
October 9th, 2009
12:03 pm
Finn, I say let these Onward Christian Soldier cowards explain that “whole rotten mess” and their new found anti-war voice in further detail!
What a bunch of gutless and feckless traitors.
Maybe they can convince their ideologically like-minded Islamo-cousins they have a friend in Obama…
USinUK
October 9th, 2009
12:10 pm
hey … what’s this I hear about the price of noble peas???
TW
October 9th, 2009
12:11 pm
Thankfully, we now have an adult making these decision.
The drunken child about ended it for all of us.
USinUK
October 9th, 2009
12:13 pm
moving in amongst the Afghans is incredibly risky – exactly what do we plan to do when we’re there, if not fight the Taliban?
Fly-On-The-Wall
October 9th, 2009
12:13 pm
I’m afraid this is a no-win situation for the President. If he adds more then his party will come down on him. If he reduces our presence then the chickhawks will get their underwear all in a bunch.
Guess this is where leadership comes into play. He’ll do better than Bush ever did.
Turd Ferguson
October 9th, 2009
12:13 pm
Pass the heroin please.
Turd Ferguson
October 9th, 2009
12:14 pm
USK…the Taliban are now our friends.
USinUK
October 9th, 2009
12:17 pm
TF –
“USK…the Taliban are now our friends”
yeah, I can tell by the way they’ve been greeting us (and the British units there) … talk about your “warm embrace”
Obozo
October 9th, 2009
12:20 pm
With friends like the Taliban, who needs enemies, mmm, mmmm, mmmm.
AmVet
October 9th, 2009
12:22 pm
Fire away conned and let god sort ‘em out…
(CNN) — Soccer mom Melanie Hain, who made national headlines last year by having a loaded, holstered handgun at her 5-year-old daughter’s soccer game, has been found shot dead in her home along with her husband, police said Thursday.
Melanie Hain became an overnight celebrity and, to some, a steward of Second Amendment rights when she carried a Glock strapped to her belt to her daughter’s soccer game September 11, 2008.
Days later, on September 20, her permit to carry a gun was revoked by Lebanon County Sheriff Michael DeLeo, who claimed that she showed poor judgment at the child’s game.
What a shame there were three children born to such violent-loving trash…
Gandalf, the Wise
October 9th, 2009
12:24 pm
When I was over there we just replaced the word civilian with Towelhead. Much easier to shoot towelheads than civilians.
Gandalf, the Wise
October 9th, 2009
12:25 pm
GUNNER!
HE!
TOWELHEADS IN THE OPEN!
12OO METERS!
IDENTIFIED!
AmVet
October 9th, 2009
12:26 pm
UH OH! Keep your heads down! Duhng is gonna be p!ssed.
The bible-thumpers prefer such scientific knowledge never be pursued.
(CNN) — NASA plans to launch next week the first of 17 planned flights to study changes in Antarctic ice and collect data that may help scientists better predict the consequences of those changes, officials said Thursday.
Kamchak
October 9th, 2009
12:26 pm
hey … what’s this I hear about the price of noble peas???
USinUK–four pages of “The Nobel Prize is bogus, and by the way Reagan was such a great man, he deserved to win it.”
Gandalf, the Wise
October 9th, 2009
12:26 pm
We would say “kill ‘em all, let Allah sort ‘em!”
Normal
October 9th, 2009
12:28 pm
Violence is the last refuge of the incompetent. – Isaac Asimov
…and since war is violence personified…
Normal
October 9th, 2009
12:31 pm
Noble peas porridge hot, noble peas porridge cold, noble peas porridge in a pot nine days old…
USinUK
October 9th, 2009
12:37 pm
USinUK–four pages of “The Nobel Prize is bogus, and by the way Reagan was such a great man, he deserved to win it.”
boy-howdy, am I sorry I missed that. oy
Turd Ferguson
October 9th, 2009
12:39 pm
AmVet
October 9th, 2009
12:22 pm
Old news but thank anyway!
USinUK
October 9th, 2009
12:40 pm
AmVet –
re: meleanie hain – it does pretty much render the “no one will challenge you if you have a gun” argument moot.
Gandalf, the Wise
October 9th, 2009
12:41 pm
EXPAT I always tell my youngest son…
“All I am saying, is give peas a chance”
USinUK
October 9th, 2009
12:43 pm
GtG –
wise words … but I always thought it was “let there be peas on earth … and let them begin with ME”
AmVet
October 9th, 2009
12:45 pm
USinUK, perhaps the country is better off with two less “conservatives” and gun-toting dipsticks that would have sooner or later likely murdered some other innocent American.
I feel sorry for those three kids who had the enormous misfortune to be born of such people…
USinUK
October 9th, 2009
12:47 pm
AmVet –
“I feel sorry for those three kids who had the enormous misfortune to be born of such people…”
well, regardless of their politics or their beliefs about guns, I just feel sorry for the kids who just lost both their parents in one fell swoop – and in the most horribly violent way.
Gandalf, the Wise
October 9th, 2009
12:48 pm
EXPAT: he was growing some cabbage, but the flood water took it… along with my basement…
But in the spring I will ensure he plants some sweet peas…
adn we can sing over it
” let there be peas in our earth, and let me grow for me!”
and
“when they are growing, give peas a chance!”
USinUK
October 9th, 2009
12:52 pm
GtG –
aw, man … so sorry to hear about your indoor swimmin pool … wasn’t deep enough for diving, was it?? (fortunately, my sister only had minimal damage – replacing the carpet kinda stuff). hopefully, the clean-up and fix-up will go smoothly for you (fingers crossed)
in the spring you have to plant sugar snap peas … yummmm!!
Finn McCool
October 9th, 2009
12:54 pm
Do we really want to live in a society where our soccer moms have to pack heat to go to a soccer game?
Is this a third world country now? America, one big trailer park.
Gandalf, the Wise
October 9th, 2009
12:55 pm
Phin, you can move out of that park anytime you choose.
Gandalf, the Wise
October 9th, 2009
12:57 pm
EXPAT: 9 feet deep in the basement, you could dive off the the roof into the drive way, if you were so inclined.
Mrs. Gandalf made me sleep in the flooded house that first to shoot looters, none came, so was disappointed.
USinUK
October 9th, 2009
12:57 pm
Finneus –
from what I read in the articles, she didn’t carry because she felt she needed to, she carried because she was a ‘murican and it was her right. they asked her to conceal it so as to not freak out the other parents and kids, but she refused.
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
October 9th, 2009
12:58 pm
Typical AmWet comment; Freaking Christian fundamentalists, full of hate and violence, I’d like to kill all of their shiitty asses, arghhhhh, blah.
Trapped in his own idiocy.
USinUK
October 9th, 2009
12:58 pm
GtG-
“EXPAT: 9 feet deep in the basement, you could dive off the the roof into the drive way, if you were so inclined.”
holy crap. that’s going to need major ripping out of drywall and airing and such. you planning on doing some remodelling while you’re at it??
Gandalf, the Wise
October 9th, 2009
12:59 pm
I like to see an exposed weapon.
Gandalf, the Wise
October 9th, 2009
12:59 pm
added a shooting range in the basement…