How would the ‘public option’ outcompete private enterprise?
Members of the Senate Finance Committee have just voted 15-8 against adding the so-called public option to the Senate health-insurance reform bill;a vote on a second, similar amendment is forthcoming. (UPDATE: The second effort was rejected 13-10.)
Committee Democrats who voted against the measure generally did so on grounds that a bill including the public option would not pass on the Senate floor. Republicans generally argued that including the public option would eliminate private insurance, producing a single-payer, government-run system.
So let me repeat an earlier and pretty simple request: Walk me through the process by which the public option would supposedly eliminate private competition.
I have seen the charge asserted repeatedly, but nobody has yet explained how that chain of events would play out. The best attempts I’ve seen involve claims that in LATER legislation Congress might CHANGE the law to produce such an outcome, but opposing a bill today based on what you imagine Congress might do years later isn’t much of an argument.
Let’s talk facts and law. What in the current legislation would produce that outcome?
Under the House bill, which already contains a public option, the public insurer would be required to finance all of its operations and benefits solely through insurance premiums paid by its customers, just as private companies would. It could not be subsidized through taxes. It also would have to offer the same range of coverage and benefits as private plans, and private plans would have equal access to customers whose insurance was being subsidized.
Given all that, if private companies are truly much more efficient than public entities, it is the public option that would presumably be run out of business, not the private plans.
So why do Republicans claim it would run private companies out of business? Don’t the Republicans have faith in private enterprise to compete? If the public option would have unfair advantages, what are they?
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311 comments Add your comment
Public Option's Doing Swell
September 29th, 2009
11:41 pm
“Not always that simple, “doc”, since many presenting complaints like abdominal pain or a headache could be caused by a myriad of conditions, some extremely rare. The young lady who passed away in Ohio recently is a prime example. Obviously her viral pneumonia wasn’t detected at the urgent care facility she first visited or she wouldn’t have been sent home with pain meds.”
You are telling a doctor that there is a such thing as a differential diagnosis? Lol what do you think gets learned in 4 years of med school; 6 years of residency which includes tons of mooonlighting in ERs and doc offices, and several years of seeing patients every day peppered with a library of a few thousand medical books?
And for a number of years there have been infinite places to learn medicine on the web and infinite numbers of software to give you differential Dx.
You sure about that abdominal pain/headache differential? LOL ReallY? Yes Virginia differential Dx exists says Bruno’s Principles of Internal Medicine soon to outsell Harrison and Cecil right?
How about my favorite? Differential Diagnosis by Jerimiah Barondness–far and away the best.
Ya think many of them don’t have differential Dx of “abd pain” or “headache”–you must have a low opinion of doctors and training and clinical experience.
I’ve tried to explain a dozen times the other day that we really don’t know anything at all about the clinical course or the timing of what happened to the girl who was working in Oxford Ohio named Young until the information comes out.
You don’t really know what was done at the urgent care center Bruno, and don’t be so naive that you believe a one sentence statement from a newspaper. They don’t know what happened without a chart–and that they don’t have.
Symptom time lines vary for viral pneumonia and bacterial pneumonia and the dozens of rarer pneumonias although some of them have common characteristics.
What seems to come across from the couple paper articles which is all I have or you have to go on is that she began to have symptoms–we’d be guessing as to which but I can make an educated one. She wanted to see a doctor but her best friend says she says she didn’t have the money. She worked 3 jobs after graduating majoring in something from a pretty decent school or at least it was regarded so when I was doing some residency at UC.
People who preached she could have borrowed the care or bargained it were wrong, and if she wasn’t that sick she might not have been seen free at a teaching hospital–then again she may have qualified for a card for treatment but was probably unfamiliar with the bureaucracy in getting one somewhere. She would have probably had to travel out of Oxford Ohio and maybe she didn’t have a car–or maybe didn’t feel like driving or at any rate didn’t get a friend to help and she didn’t ask her parents for money either.
She may have tried to shake things off. We don’t know what happened at the urgent care center at all because newspaper articles aren’t reliable reporting things that they have only heresay for as data. We don’t know what she told them and what they ordered or did lab wise. Most quick tests btw for H1N1 have a high rate of false negatives.
I suspect that whatever she had turned bad or she went into septic shock either a week or 2 weeks after onset of symptoms–and that was probably several ddays after an incubation period for whatever it was she had.
I haven’t seen more details as to information on her when I last checked the Dayton and Cincy papers.
RB from Gwinnett
September 29th, 2009
11:57 pm
The bottom line is if you’re trying to explain this in a way that makes sense to Jay and his band of merry sheep, you’re wasting your time. If they having figured out the government hasn’t done a decent job managing anything it’s touched including the post office and medicare, they aren’t likely to understand this either. They don’t have the mental capacity.
Let me ask Jay and company a simple question and I really would like a real world honest answer…
If the post office doesn’t have to pay a 35% tax rate like it’s UPS and FEDEX competitors and doesn’t need to make a 10% profit to satisfy it’s shareholders, how is it still 10% more expensive to ship by the postal service? They have at a minimum a 45% cost advantage and are still 10% or more higher. Why in the heck do you fools think the government will do any better with healthcare? What evidence of the government managing any social program effectively gives you that confidence?
Jay, I’ll await your reply, but as usual, I suspect you will avoid answering questions you simply don’t have an answer for. Perhaps you can ask the DNC for an official partisan reply????
Public Option's Doing Swell
September 30th, 2009
12:38 am
@ RB–
When in your life have people you called fools done anything but taken a whizz in your face? It isn’t changing now. Who the hell do you think you are?
And the post office and Medicare were crippled by the same two fools, Repubozos Tom Davis and Chuck Grassley in 2006 and 2003 respectively. Look up the legislation yourself.
Public Option's Doing Swell
September 30th, 2009
2:01 am
Open Letter to Fake Repubozo Pollers from Nate Silver
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/09/open-letter-to-strategic-vision-ceo.html
RLJ
September 30th, 2009
2:22 am
If you haven’t ‘been walked through the process’, you are not listening. The government does not have to make a profit to operate. That in itself is an competitive advantage. Next, as others have said, employers can drop the private insurance and force employees to the public option. Also, does anyone trust the government not to subsidize the program with taxes if it has financial trouble later? It will be an entitlement program and people will depend on it. Of course, they will subsidize.
Richard
September 30th, 2009
3:02 am
Isn’t everyone kind of missing the point. Fixing the health insurance system is not fixing health care. Obesity causes medical conditions that represent over half of all medical claims. Perhaps what we should do is ban certain behaviors. For example if you are 10% over ideal body weight you get to go to jail until you lose the excess.
The point is that lifestyle decisions effect health costs, and effed up lifestyles cost everybody.
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
September 30th, 2009
5:35 am
WASHINGTON (AP) — To prevent inflation from taking off, the Federal Reserve will need to start boosting interest rates quickly and aggressively once the economy is back on firmer footing, Fed officials warned Tuesday.
Warned who? The fed warning the fed? wth is this, the idiot.gov is sending out pie in the sky warnings to itself?
Like the economy is anywhere near better?
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
September 30th, 2009
5:39 am
Metro home prices edge upward again, Index shows second straight monthly rise. Prices stay below a year ago;-Top of Front Page Urinal
So the libs would like to reinflate the housing bubble that they whined about for 8 years?
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
September 30th, 2009
5:48 am
KABUL, Afghanistan — A crowded Afghan passenger bus struck a roadside bomb Tuesday in the violent southern province of Kandahar, killing 30 people and injuring more than three dozen others, Afghan officials said. As many as 10 children were reported to be among the dead.-Urinal
Tell me again why the Afghani are “not on our side?”
USinUK
September 30th, 2009
5:55 am
whiner –
“Warned who? The fed warning the fed? wth is this, the idiot.gov is sending out pie in the sky warnings to itself?”
they warned the market, setting expectations so that the market can price in where they think yields will go.
USinUK
September 30th, 2009
5:57 am
“Tell me again why the Afghani are “not on our side?””
many of them are and want the Taliban out of their country … however, when things like this happen, it doesn’t help relations:
A young Afghan girl suffered fatal injuries after a box of public information leaflets, dropped from an RAF transport aircraft over Helmand province, landed on top of her.
http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/Afghanistan/article6854513.ece
USinUK
September 30th, 2009
5:58 am
from the same article:
The girl is one of a long line of innocent victims of the war, with some 1,500 civilians killed by violence in Afghanistan so far this year — 68 per cent were caused by insurgent attacks and 23 per cent by Afghan or Nato troops. The reasons for the rest have not been specified.
Public Option's Doing Swell
September 30th, 2009
6:09 am
Lifestyle decisions certainly impact health and diseases, but they are hardly the only etiology of them.
Fixing insurance is a large part of improving access to health care, as well as fixing pharmaceutical costs, and establishing best practice outcomes. There are also research aspects to all the health care bills.
Fixing insurance correctly also goes a long way at stopping the economy tsunami with runaway costs now at 16% GDP, and health care growing costs growing at 300% of the economy, but of course reading is hard for Repubozos and they refuse to recognize any of this.
Medicare was crippled by the Repubozos in 2003 led by Bill Frist, and the Donut is a Repubozo creation as is the phenomenon of seniors unable to afford their meds.
If it’s a screwup, there’s a Repubozo etiology you can rest assured.
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator :-) You Whine :-(
September 30th, 2009
6:28 am
U StinK- You may be pitiful enough to equate deliberate acts of violence to accidental ones, thereby putting the terrorists on the same moral footing as our soldiers, but I’m not.
Do you even realize why we are in Afghanistan?
TnGelding
September 30th, 2009
6:31 am
Richard
September 30th, 2009
3:02 am
Of course you are right. Why doesn’t anyone have the guts to tell these folks to shape up or expect to pay for their own self-induced afflictions? Insurance companies won’t take many of them and if they do charge them higher rates.
USinUK
September 30th, 2009
6:32 am
whiner –
“You may be pitiful enough to equate deliberate acts of violence to accidental ones, thereby putting the terrorists on the same moral footing as our soldiers, but I’m not.”
I’m not putting their acts on the same par – but if my brother or my neice or my father was killed by a foreign military force, even if it was an accident, that country wouldn’t be my “BFFs”
TnGelding
September 30th, 2009
6:34 am
RGB
September 29th, 2009
11:36 pm
Except for the student loans it was the economic crisis that triggered it. And shouldn’t students be able to attend school for free as long as they can make the grades?
RB from Gwinnett
September 30th, 2009
6:35 am
Public Option, are you serious? Are you saying the post office wasn’t ineffient and expensive as heck prior to some legislation in 2003? Please explain what you meant by that post because you can’t possibly be that naive.
Public Option's Doing Swell
September 30th, 2009
6:41 am
At this time, the only updated article on the web is an indication of how erratic and inadequate newspapers can be in reporting disease courses when they have no medical charts to interpret.
http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20090926/NEWS16/909269995
All this article says, is that the ” tests on a Butler County woman in her 20s who died this week were not positive for H1N1, according to the Ohio Department of Health, which could not identify the woman for privacy reasons.”
It gives no information about the time line and treatment of Kimi Young, and right now, the press doesn’t have any– which hasn’t stopped the Bookman wingnuts from clucking about it anyway as if they had said charts and the ability to interpret them.
See @ Bruno who also had a free update on differential diagnosis for physicians last night, as I suppose part of a monologue for late night TV.
Rightwing Troll
September 30th, 2009
6:48 am
So…. drowning government in a bathtub is a good thing, killing off evil insurance companies not bad…
That’s pretty much the gist of it from the wingnuts. All wrapped up in endless supposition and worthless conjecture about what “will” happen… clairvoyants one and all are the wingnut trolls of Bookman’s Blog… (although I do sense some channelling of Pillbo Limbaugh in there)
Rightwing Troll
September 30th, 2009
6:56 am
Also, since it was addressed above..
Most of you wingnuts here wouldn’ know it, because you spend all your time in the basement pounding out nutbag missives and half baked conspiracy theories about “death panels”, but the economy IS getting better. I know this because I have a small business. The amount of “chatter” about new work has been on the rise for 2-3 months, and now the “chatter” is turning into work. Some of this work is looking pretty darn profitable so far.
None of you wingnuts would know this because you all obviously don’t get out much, and because your masters Limbaugh, Beck, and Boortz won’t tell you this, and your wingnut rags (that you cut-n-paste your “facts” from) sure ain’t gonna report it, since they’ve all been trying to make anything and everything Obama proposes be a failure, no… make that a SPECTACULAR FAILURE…
Why do wingnuts hate America???
Rightwing Troll
September 30th, 2009
6:58 am
Gotta go to work. May pick a up few mexicans on the way since I actually want to get the work done on time…
Public Option's Doing Swell
September 30th, 2009
6:58 am
What the hell man. This can’t be right ’bout mah Sarallllllll. And it turns out Lynn Vincent wrote her book. Maybe Vincent wrote her WSJ editotrial as well, because it’s doubtful that ole Sarah can write any better than the wingnut commenters here.
http://www.nypost.com/p/pagesix/sarah_lectures_tough_sell_Z6eKRnldUitBmiOfXCBjlI
Some people just don’t know the value of a sage that comes along once in a lifetime.
After quitting as governor of Alaska in July, Palin signed with the top-notch Washington Speakers Bureau, which also reps George W. Bush, Laura Bush, Condoleezza Rice, hero pilot Chesley Sullenberger, LA Dodgers manager Joe Torre and magician David Blaine.
Palin’s bookers are said to be asking for $100,000 per speech, but an industry expert tells Page Six: “The big lecture buyers in the US are paralyzed with fear about booking her, basically because they think she is a blithering idiot.”
How can she be a blithering idiot if all them JawJaws and Sonnah and Saxbuh think she done hung da moon? Why wouldn’t it be a privilege to pay 100 grand to hear the blithering idiot?
Bob
September 30th, 2009
7:03 am
Jay, The baucus bill mandates private insurance companies and companies that produce medical equipment to dump money into the gov option, 13Billion the first year and who knows how much the increase would be. How long would the AJC be in biz if the feds subsidized a new newspaper with money taken from the AJC. While 13 Billion is not a budget buster, how long before it goes to 100 Billion or 200 Billion.
Bud Wiser
September 30th, 2009
7:04 am
The ‘public option’ is dead, just as are Obowo’s thoughts of a second term. Likewise, the fleeting power of the Democrats is dying on the vine.
Oh, such hope, such change, dead now as Jimmy Hoffa. No assisted suicide here. That idiot in the WH, his advisers, staff, and political party have all drunk their own speaial batch of Kool Aide.
Investor Business Daily poll shows that @45% of all doctors (Chad not included) have said that they would seriously consider their own options: retirement, or not taking Medicare patients at all. Another poll shows now 55% of ALL Americans oppose Obowo’s moronic health care plan, 41% in favor (that would be the ones with the outstretched hands), and a whopping 66% of ALL senior citizens oppose it.
When are midterm elections again? Even some of Obowo’s party affiliates are struggling now to untie themselves from the anchor the uppity muslim is becoming.
Public Option's Doing Swell
September 30th, 2009
7:05 am
Um how can the Baucus bill mandate dumping money into a public option that the Blue Dog and Repubozo hookers on Senate Finance which happens to be the committee marking up the Baucus bill right noatew failed to approve the two public option amendments yesterday?
Um jist wonderin’. That statement is patently false. Get a civics book on how the Senate and Congress actually work.
Taxpayer
September 30th, 2009
7:08 am
All together now. IBD is the poll for me. hehehe
USinUK
September 30th, 2009
7:10 am
Taxpayer
“All together now. IBD is the poll for me. hehehe”
the corollary to “leaves of 3 make great TP”
oy.
Public Option's Doing Swell
September 30th, 2009
7:13 am
The IBD poll has been trashed by every poll analyst who makes real money and is respected in this country including Nate Silver. It is widely touted by fools as we can see above who are Repubozos. It refuses to reveal it’s real sourcing, or where or how it exclusively conducted its poll by emailing it’s alleged physicians.
The physician poll most highly regarded was the New England Journal of Medicine Poll. NEJM is at the top of physician journals read by physicians world wide.
And there is not one imbecile here that will take me on medically or legally. Not one in months. Still waiting for that to happen.
63% of MDs polled statistically in a poll that has been accepted by every profesional polling analyst who also rejected the idiotic IBD poll wanted the choice of a public option.
Poll is linked here from NEJM:
http://healthcarereform.nejm.org/?p=1790&query=home
All you catheter bound unemployed Repubozo yokels keep posting crap that you are the only one struggling to read. Gotta go work in the real world.
Public Option's Doing Swell
September 30th, 2009
7:15 am
Nate Silver who makes six figures as a poll analyst trashes IBD Poll touted by yokels here:
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/09/ibdtipp-doctors-poll-is-not-trustworthy.html
stands for decibels
September 30th, 2009
7:19 am
Investor Business Daily poll shows that @45% of all doctors
ha ha ha.
Bud is quite the poll smoker, isn’t he?
Normal
September 30th, 2009
7:23 am
MR. PRESIDENT, BRING OUR TROOPS HOME NOW!
Joey
September 30th, 2009
7:26 am
Jay;
If you are interested posted a response on Cal Thomas at 7:25.
Seth
September 30th, 2009
7:27 am
Having actually read the house bill there are three inherent advantages the public plan has over private insurers written into the bill even if you believe that the plan will actually only use premiums to compete: 1.) it is not required to reserve for unexpected losses like private insurers are required under state law; 2,) it is authorized to pay only medicare rates for both in-network and out-of-network(which means out-of-network providers cannot bill members more than 115% of medicare rates in a market where providers routinely charge more than 200% of medicare; and 3.) it doesn’t have to comply with any state mandates regarding rating, reserving or mandated benefits. Imagine competing with a plan that can consistently operate in the red, always underprice you, and not have to follow the same laws you do. That’s fair.
So there you go. Your article is demonstrates the lack of understanding present among public option fans. Those three advantages above will ultimately destroy most private insurers.
Taxpayer
September 30th, 2009
7:30 am
Let the fear set you free.
jt
September 30th, 2009
7:36 am
Kyle Wingfeild just wrote about some fat lady going down on a public option committee.
Atlanta Native
September 30th, 2009
7:41 am
My comment from 6:30 last night still awaits moderation. No profanity, no links. Wassup?
Mrs. Godzilla
September 30th, 2009
7:41 am
Chill…..Obama’s got this.
I had to remind myself of that last night.
We had faint hope that the Rockefeller and Shumer amendments would pass still last night I drowned my sorrows in pasta.
This morning I’m fired up and ready to go.
This battle has just begun…….
Mrs. Godzilla
September 30th, 2009
7:43 am
Rachel Maddow: Public Option Is Dead – Long Live Public Option!
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=385×380176
Engage!
GB
September 30th, 2009
7:45 am
Simply answer: the gov’t program would not pay federal income taxes or state premium taxes and it would not be subject to the numerous mandated coverages that apply to private insurance.
AmVet
September 30th, 2009
7:58 am
Do not kid yourselves. The conned do not want ANY changes, whatsoever.
They didn’t in 1994. They don’t now. And they won’t ever. They never do.
These antisocial ascetics and misanthropes LOVE the status quo.
They love seeing fascists and corporatists being exempted from the rule of law.
They love seeing 20,000+ Americans die NEEDLESSLY every year because they are not profitable enough to the giant HMOs and Aetna.
They love seeing innumerable tens of thousands of American’s lives ruined as they file for bankruptcy because of unconscionable medical bills.
They love waste, fraud and ineptitude, as long as it occurs in the private sector only.
They hate their children and grandchildren.
I presume the feeling is mutual…
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
September 30th, 2009
8:02 am
Kyle Wingnut is correct. The libs are propagandizing through their state run media hacks that the public option is dead. This means they will stick it back in some amendment when they think no on is watching. No lie is too big for a democrat.
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
September 30th, 2009
8:06 am
The public is not as dumb as it’s made out to be, and Mr. Obama’s public option died a bipartisan death yesterday in the Senate Finance Committee. What’s left is a package of “reforms” that are mere trite extensions of what we’ve been doing for decades. That is, piling up mandates on private insurers and then lying that this somehow isn’t driving up the cost of health insurance; piling up subsidies for health consumption and then lying that this somehow isn’t responsible for runaway health-care spending.-WallStreetJournal
See that word “lie?”
It’s impossible to debate socialism honestly, for if you did, everybody would go ewwwww.
Mrs. Godzilla
September 30th, 2009
8:08 am
Andy
Yes sir…it will be added later….perfectly legally and passed.
I’d offer to wager with you, but your track record on that (and a few other things) ain’t so hot.
If you’d like to, and so you’re not surprised later on, click on the provided link and read how it will happen….
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2009/9/30/787949/-Public-Option-Victory-in-Finance-Committee-Today
Engage!
Taxpayer
September 30th, 2009
8:11 am
By the way, if all insurance companies reserved for unexpected losses, would any of them ever not have enough money to pay off every conceivable claim or would insurance companies exist or would we the people own AIG. So many questions.
Turd Ferguson
September 30th, 2009
8:15 am
Cmon…Jay knows better. He is baiting. However, the private Ins companies could in know way compete with the public option and eventually the public option would be the only option.
NO OBOBOCARE!
AmVet
September 30th, 2009
8:16 am
Jay, would you consider doing a column on corporate crime?
The topic that seemingly no one, not the mainstream media, not the politicians, not the conned dare broach.
I’d love to get the “input” from these gangster capitalist supporters on how the private sector can do no wrong…
Taxpayer
September 30th, 2009
8:16 am
No one would dare try to debate you, Andy! You are just so all-knowing and all-seeing. Why, I’m always left puzzled every time I even consider the fact that there are so many things left unsolved and yet your talent remains totally untapped. Wasted. Why can’t people see this! Then again, I’m sure you have the answer.
Mrs. Godzilla
September 30th, 2009
8:18 am
ANdy/Palin 2012 ???
AmVet
September 30th, 2009
8:18 am
Later, all.
Off to help pay for the welcher’s medicare. And more corporate welfare. And the occupations. And the bailouts. And the…
Finn McCool
September 30th, 2009
8:19 am
this isn’t an instance of politicians bowing to popular passions. As the liberal watchdog Media Matters pointed out, more Americans believe in the existence of UFOs (34 percent, according to a 2007 Associated Press poll) than oppose the public option (26 percent, according to a recent New York Times poll). Even among Republicans, opposition to the public option (42 percent) is outweighed by support (47 percent). Polls consistently find that the public option is more popular than health reform itself.
http://www.slate.com/id/2230938/
LongShanks
September 30th, 2009
8:21 am
“SHHEEEEP, mere sheep, once you disperse the shepherd.”
NO OBOBOCARE!!!
Jack
September 30th, 2009
8:21 am
I don’t know how many of the posters in here are in business, but if they are, they know that no private enterprise can compete with a government give-a-way program.
USinUK
September 30th, 2009
8:21 am
“However, the private Ins companies could in know way compete with the public option and eventually the public option would be the only option.”
what a load of bollocks …
even in countries with nationalized health care, insurance companies still do well (google Aviva or AXA)
Turd Ferguson
September 30th, 2009
8:22 am
Finnius…shouldnt you be helping the homeless/bums? Colder temperatures approach and they gonna need a place to keep warm.
Turd Ferguson
September 30th, 2009
8:23 am
bullocks…lol. Ya…then we also subsidize the private insurers too? LOL…nice try.
*POOT*
stands for decibels
September 30th, 2009
8:23 am
Jay, would you consider doing a column on corporate crime?
Betsy McCaughey’s role in this HCR debate and her recently revealed connections to tobacco lobbiests would be worthwhile as well.
As would be a brighter spotlight on what certainly appears to be outright fraudulent polling sponsored by IBD via the shady Strategic Vision outfit.
Alas, I imagine the media’s interest in these two related stories will continue to receive approximately .0001% the attention paid to a Candid Camera video moment over at ACORN some weeks back.
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
September 30th, 2009
8:25 am
What kind of madness is it that someone would create a poll on Facebook asking respondents, “Should Obama be killed?” The choices were: “No, Maybe, Yes, and Yes if he cuts my health care.” The Secret Service is now investigating. I hope they put the jerk in jail and throw away the key.-Tom Freidman
So do I because I’d be willing to bet that some wormy democrat is the one who posted the poll, knowing full well that the NY Times would blame it on Cons.
Taxpayer
September 30th, 2009
8:25 am
Mrs. Godzilla
September 30th, 2009
8:18 am
ANdy/Palin 2012 ???
Why of course. It’s so obvious now that someone has suggested it. Why didn’t someone think of this before. They have my vote in the primaries.
Finn McCool
September 30th, 2009
8:27 am
Jack, you ever heard of the Edison Electric Tube Company? How about Edison Machine Works?
Those were companies Thomas Edison set up after showed he electricity could be offered as a replacement for gas lighting and candles. That was a big deal at the time but time passed those companies by in just a few short years.
Why are you so intent that the medical insurance industry survive? Though conservatives love to reminisce and believe they can stop progress, they really can’t stop progress.
Lead, follow, or get out of the way. Conservatives are the ninnies of yesteryear.
jt
September 30th, 2009
8:30 am
If it wasn’t for NASA “competing” with private space flight, none of us would have personal space craft.
No, wait…….
USinUK
September 30th, 2009
8:30 am
TF –
while I love talking market with you, you really don’t know what you’re talking about with the private insurance industry vs. public health care. government doesn’t subsidize private health insurance here, yet, like I said, companies like Aviva and AXA do very well.
Bud Wiser
September 30th, 2009
8:31 am
I see that the left wing idiots are still raging against the dying of the light.
Your anger obviously is fueled by the realization that you have been duped and dumped on by your Messiah, who is conveniently out of the country with his simplistic alcoholic wife and The Bloated One, Oprah, trying to get Olympic games in Chicago? Oh yes, you socialist pubs like the NYT and Daily POS have equally railed against the polls, because they are obviously fueled by racism……isn’t that the code word for the left anyway, your penultimate last stand when you have nothing left to support your ignorance?
You might as well try to have the Games, by the way, at Vostok Station (you egg heads look it up, I know you’re too stupid to know intuitively where it is)
USinUK
September 30th, 2009
8:31 am
jt –
“If it wasn’t for NASA “competing” with private space flight, none of us would have personal space craft.”
try again, bubba … if it wasn’t for NASA, most telecom companies couldn’t afford to launch their own satellites into space
USinUK
September 30th, 2009
8:31 am
wow … looks like Bud is off his meds again …
Nothing is Free
September 30th, 2009
8:32 am
Finn Mckool
**Why are you so intent that the medical insurance industry survive? **
Because it is the free enterprise system that gives us great health care and choices. Duh?
If the government controlling every aspect of our lives is your idea of progress, then move to cuba. they are already there.
Joey
September 30th, 2009
8:33 am
Jay;
If you do as dB suggest be sure to select Republican Party activist and supporters for your expose.
Mrs. Godzilla
September 30th, 2009
8:35 am
UsinUK
I think Bud is BACK on his meds.
Poster boy for health care reform.
Gale
September 30th, 2009
8:35 am
Nay-sayers, you do understand that single-payor does not equate to “free”, right?
Say What??
September 30th, 2009
8:37 am
News of note:
“Liberal Democrats failed in two efforts Tuesday to include a government-run insurance option in the legislation before the Senate Finance Committee.”
That puts a smile on my face. A Democrat Prez, Democrat controlled House, Democrat controlled Senate, and they can’t even get this bill out of committee. Maybe some politicians ARE listening to their consitutents.
Joey
September 30th, 2009
8:38 am
Gale: Good point.
What does single-payer mean or equate to?
Turd Ferguson
September 30th, 2009
8:38 am
Ok US…thank you, you are dismissed. On the other hand…
THE POSITIVE EFFECT of CASH for CLUNKERS ?
Its taken 95% of the Obama bumper stickers off the road !
lovelyliz
September 30th, 2009
8:39 am
They need the healthcare industry to make as much $$$$$$$$$$ as possible so they can fund their political campaigns.
Turd Ferguson
September 30th, 2009
8:39 am
Say What??
September 30th, 2009
8:37 am
yep…LMAO @ The Loser Democrats and their double talking. Everyone can see thru their lies!
jt
September 30th, 2009
8:39 am
USinUK-
“try again, bubba … if it wasn’t for NASA, most telecom companies couldn’t afford to launch their own satellites into space”
With all due respect, you do not know this and can not prove it. Furthermore, space/satylite launching is big business now, with the majority of the launching taking place as far away from NASA as possible on this earth.
Another great government success story.
lovelyliz
September 30th, 2009
8:41 am
Gale do you understand that every other single payer/univesal plan in the western industrialized world does it cheaper and with better results?
USinUK
September 30th, 2009
8:41 am
Mrs. G –
I mean ’script meds … not the ones he gets from the shady guy on the corner …
anyhoo … upstairs …
Taxpayer
September 30th, 2009
8:42 am
There is absolutely nothing in the Constitution that provides for government support of space travel. That is why the ‘landing on the moon’ had to be filmed in Hollywood.
Doggone/GA
September 30th, 2009
8:43 am
“Furthermore, space/satylite launching is big business now, with the majority of the launching taking place as far away from NASA as possible on this earth”
And thereby proving that private industry can compete successfully with a government run agency.
Nothing is Free
September 30th, 2009
8:50 am
lovely
**Gale do you understand that every other single payer/univesal plan in the western industrialized world does it cheaper and with better results?**
I have followed this for months and have never seen any proof of what you say. In fact, most systems are horribly ran.
Of course, we are not even discussing a Universal; Plan. We are discussing spending 1.6 trillion in order to insure about 10 million people. Can you do the math? That money could just buy great health insurance for those 10 million for the next 35 years. So why would you insist that the money be turned over to a bunch of bureaucrats that have yet to do anything right to insure those people for one year?
Say What??
September 30th, 2009
8:50 am
Taxpayer
And where in the Constitution does it say the government must provide healthcare to its citizens and illegal aliens?
By the way, the moon landing was filmed in Arizona, not California. Geeeeeez.
Gale
September 30th, 2009
8:55 am
OK, my single-payor comment was intended to poke the nay-sayers sneering that loafers get “free” healthcare, while they presumably pay hard earned cash for theirs. It is not free. We all pay for it with taxes. That does not make it bad, and yes Liz, it makes it cheaper in the long run. Single-payor means that an indgent with TB or a kid with sniffles can be treated quickly at the same –non-ER– clinic. The clinic and every other healthcare provider will be reimbursed for that care from the same source. The $100+ in paperwork and administrative time to gather insurance information is substantially reduced. There is no deciding which plan will pay how much for which service. The consumer, you and I, know what to expect when we walk in the door. We know that we need not fear that we will not be able to afford treatment if the employer-subsidized insurance is gone because we were laid off. We need not fear that we will end up bankrupt because our brother needs help paying for cancer meds and of course we will do whatever we can to help. In short, I am in favor of single-payor, but it is not free. It is simply far better than our current system.
TnGelding
September 30th, 2009
9:14 am
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
September 30th, 2009
5:35 am
The economy is growing. Is that better in your book? The fed has inflation under control and is able to make any needed adjustments. Deal with it.
You’re outnumbered:
Survey: Optimism about global economy is growing
Jack
September 30th, 2009
9:16 am
Like I said, if you are not a business owner, your opinions are short-sighted. If you are not satisfied with the way government or employers treat you, then start your own business: then your opinions & postings will change considerably.
Say What??
September 30th, 2009
9:20 am
TnGelding
Questions:
If the economy is growing, then why is unemployment also growing?
If conservatives are “outnumbered” then why can’t you pass your socialized medicine bill?
Where did you get your “optimism” survey, the Daily Kos?
What They Are Saying: 09.30.09 | AnnotatedOpinions.com
September 30th, 2009
9:23 am
[...] How would the ‘public option’ outcompete private enterprise? [Atlanta Journal-Constitution] [...]
TnGelding
September 30th, 2009
9:27 am
Jack
September 30th, 2009
9:16 am
In 2002 70% of businesses had no employees and only make up 5% of receipts.
Jack
September 30th, 2009
9:32 am
If anyone here wants to start up an Electric Tube or Machine Works company, let me know. I’ll be your first customer.
Jack
September 30th, 2009
9:42 am
A 5% return on sales ain’t bad. But it’ll be a lot less if business owners are forced to pay employee insurance. Of course, we all remember that Hillary said that if employers could not afford to pay health insurance for their employees, they shouldn’t be in business.
TnGelding
September 30th, 2009
9:46 am
Say What??
September 30th, 2009
9:20 am
Increase in productivity. Corporate America has abandoned us and jobs are always a lagging indicator. It was in the third year of the Reagan and Bush administrations before jobs started to increase.
Reporter as an individual is outnumbered.
It isn’t socialized medicine and liberals aren’t dittoheads or lemmings. It should be tho, it’s the only thing that will truly reduce costs. But private insurance would still be available to those that could afford it and wanted it as a supplemental.
I did a google search to find the survey. Sorry I forgot to provide the link:
“Survey: Optimism about global economy is growing”
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2009/08/19/financial/f084702D75.DTL
I particularly liked this:
“Three-quarters of the 204 fund managers polled in the monthly survey said they believe the world economy will strengthen over the next 12 months, the highest reading since November 2003. About 63 percent of managers polled in July had an upbeat view.”
TnGelding
September 30th, 2009
9:49 am
Jack
September 30th, 2009
9:42 am
Hillary’s plan is looking better and better. It, like the current plans, sought to expand our current system to cover more people and let government cover the remainder.
Say What??
September 30th, 2009
10:02 am
TnGelding
September 30th, 2009
9:46 am
Thanks for the response.
“Increase in productivity”? Not seeing it myself. Many reports say things are looking up, others say they’re not. I guess we can all find one to support our position.
“Optimism about global economy is growing”? Hmm, I read your link. Here’s come interesting comments from the article:
1. “Three-quarters of the 204 fund managers polled in the monthly survey said they believe the world economy will strengthen over the next 12 months.” Okay, I certainly hope it’s not going to get worse. No real quantative info here.
2. “The positive views of fund managers has translated into more investments.” Wow, real surprise there. Tell everyone things are going to get better so they will invest their money with you.
3. “However, despite the growing optimism about a global economic recovery, Hartnett said there is still a lack of certainty about how strong it will be. About 80 percent of investors are predicting below trend growth for the next year, he added.” Okay, now this sounds like a more grounded statement. 80% are predicting BELOW TREND GROWTH.
4. “Regionally, portfolio managers have been overweighting investments in emerging markets, while limiting exposure in the U.S., Great Britain, Europe and Japan, according to the survey results released Wednesday.” So the “global” economy is getting more investments, but the US, Great Britain, Europe and Japan are getting limited exposure. In other words, most all of our allies, and the US are getting the short stick. This may sound encouraging to you, but it doesn’t to me.
Not to sound narrow minded, but until the US economy improves, I’m not too concerned about how cheap-labor-third-world countries will be on the rise in the “global economy”.
TnGelding
September 30th, 2009
10:12 am
Say What??
September 30th, 2009
10:02 am
“Productivity increased 6.5 percent in the business sector in the second
quarter of 2009.”
http://www.bls.gov/news.release/prod2.nr0.htm
The point is, things are getting better and the economy will show small growth in GDP in the current qtr which ends tomorrow. Job growth is still at least a year away, unless government offers some kind of incentives to start hiring and stop outsourcing.
Our dominance of the world economy appears to be over. This could be the new reality, but I hope not. Certainly our young people are going to haveto be better educated and prepared for the workforce.
Bud Wiser
September 30th, 2009
10:23 am
You left wingers, in your complete and absolute devotion to the dead policies of the Messiah, would be laughable, if it were funny.
You people are just plain old down home country stupid. I would take pity on you, because you can help the mentally sick, but there is no help known to man to cure stupid. You sure as hell cannot legislate a cure for stupid, and with their NEA and other sick Obowo supporters disguised as ‘teachers’, their indoctrination of the new version of the Hitler Youth in public schools seems well under way.
I weep for the future.
Say What??
September 30th, 2009
10:23 am
TnGelding
September 30th, 2009
10:12 am
Okay, so here’s a few tidbits about that robust productivity gain.
1. “U.S. non-farm productivity in the second quarter rose at its fastest pace in six years as companies slashed costs to protect profits, government data showed on Tuesday.”
Yes, there were gains, however it was because companies slashed costs.
2. “On the other hand it means you can do more with fewer people,” he said.
This is the end result of companies showing gains by “slashing costs” (i.e. cutting jobs).
So in other words, the cost to prepare you family’s meals has been reduced (increased productivity) because you kicked one of your children out of the house.
Say What??
September 30th, 2009
10:28 am
TnGelding
Oh yeah, here’s another clip about the productivity gains.
“Annualized change from previous quarter in U.S. workers’ productivity, measured in output per hour. Jobless rolls have hit record levels this recession. The economy has been shrinking. But U.S. companies are doing better than you might think. That reality will likely be underscored Tuesday when the Labor Department is expected to report a 5.5% jump in productivity in the second quarter from the first, according to consensus estimates. That would be the biggest jump since the third quarter of 2007. In other words, companies have taken advantage of their slimmed-down workforces by wringing more out of each employee. That’s bad news for the jobless.”
“Wringing more out of each employee.” Guess we’ll go back to kids working in sweat shops so we can continue such outstanding “productivity gains”.
Say What??
September 30th, 2009
10:34 am
TnGelding
One final thing:
“Finally, it is important to remember that while productivity is on the rise, Americans’ actual working hours continue to shrink. “If not for the last two miserable quarters, this quarter’s drop in hours would be the steepest in the [Bureau of Labor Statistics] data — back to 1947,” NPR.org makes clear.”
The steepest sinct 1947? Yeah, great economic news.
Andrew Biggs
September 30th, 2009
10:43 am
two thoughts: first, I believe the public option would receive infusions of capital from the government, while private insurers must attract capital from investors and generate a profit to compensate those investors. A lower cost of capital gives a public option a competitive advantage. Second, I understand that Speaker Pelosi wants the public option to charge Medicare rates for treatment. As already occurs with Medicare, this shifts costs to private insurers, who are charged more to make up for losses on Medicare treatments.If the public option is implemented in this way, this would constitute another competitive advantage over private insurers.
TnGelding
September 30th, 2009
12:04 pm
Say What??
September 30th, 2009
10:34 am
Nobody said it was great, just improving from what it was. Inventories are also declining so production will have to be increased soon. Some of the jobs will never come back, that’s why there’s an emphasis on creating new industries, which will take time. Our piece of the global economic pie is shrinking. We’d better get used to it and make the necessary adjustments. Priority number one would be to stop our lavish, wasteful lifestyles, which will undoubtedly slow the recovery.
TnGelding
September 30th, 2009
12:11 pm
Say What??
September 30th, 2009
10:34 am
You do understand the severity of the crisis?
http://seekingalpha.com/article/127611-a-handy-glossary-for-today-s-economic-crisis