Cal Thomas, a purveyor of hate in religious disguise
Syndicated columnist Cal Thomas, writing in the Washington Times, today offers an ugly, despicable attack on all Muslim Americans, whom he accuses of “the undermining of this nation from within … through deception, putting on a peaceful face while subtly plotting ways to bring America down.”
As his sole piece of evidence, Thomas cites statements at a public prayer rally of Muslim Americans in Washington, at which a Brooklyn imam lauded American freedom, telling the crowd that “What we’ve done today, you couldn’t do in any Muslim country. If you prayed on the palace lawn there, they’d lock you up.”
But on Facebook, Thomas points out, that same imam has written that “Democracy is not revelation, and democracy does not equal freedom, for in democracy you have apartheid, you have slavery, you have homosexuality, you have lesbianism, you have gambling, you have all of the vices that are against the spirit of truth; so no we don’t want to democratize Islam, we want to Islamize democracy.”
To Thomas, an evangelical Christian, this statement constitutes proof that the imam in particular and Muslim Americans in general are trying to destroy America from the inside, using terrorism as a weapon. Yet the truth is that on an almost daily basis, socially conservative Christian leaders employ almost identical rhetoric as the socially conservative imam.
They too decry the excesses of American freedom that lead to tolerance of gays and other perceived vices — the difference is that in their case, they seek to “Christianize” rather than “Islamize” democracy.
Thomas of course sees nothing dangerous or wrong with that at all. (For the record, neither do I. I disagree with them, but they have every right to say those things and in no way endanger our country by doing so. The same is true of the imam.)
“Are we being infiltrated and surrounded by people who want us dead and our country destroyed?” Thomas asks in his column, raising a question that he lacks the guts to answer. “Try a little experiment: Google “Islam near” and then type in the name of any city or town. When I tried the small town of Bryn Mawr, Pa., outside Philadelphia, 10 Islamic-related sites came up. In larger cities, there are as many, or more. Deception is part of the terrorists’ battle strategy.”
So the presence of Islamic related sites is evidence of a terror conspiracy? What Thomas seeks is the marginalization and rejection of Muslim Americans, the very process that in European countries has made their Muslim communities more prone to radicalization. He seeks to create the very thing he claims to despise.
It’s useful to recall that after the fall of communism, this very same Thomas called for a “cultural war crimes tribunal” in which many of his fellow Americans would be forced to answer for their opinions. At those trials, he wrote, “people from academia, the media, government and the clergy who were wrong in their assessment of communism would be forced to confront their mistakes.”
Sounds just like democracy, doesn’t it?
In 2003, this stalwart defender of democracy again called for a domestic war crimes tribunal, this time to bring to account “scores of false media prophets who predicted disaster should the U.S. military confront and seek to oust the murderous regime of Saddam Hussein.” This was in those short heady “Mission Accomplished” days right after the invasion of Iraq, before most Americans truly understood that we were not being greeted with roses and chocolate.
“The purpose of a cultural war crimes tribunal would be to remind the public of journalism’s many mistakes, as well as the errors of certain politicians and retired generals, and allow it to properly judge their words the next time they feel the urge to prophesy…,” Thomas wrote. “All of the printed and voiced prophecies should be saved in an archive. When these false prophets again appear, they can be reminded of the error of their previous ways and at least be offered an opportunity to recant and repent.”
The mindset of people such as Cal Thomas is far more undemocratic and dangerous than that of most of the Muslim Americans whom he seeks to smear.
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390 comments Add your comment
Mrs. Godzilla
September 29th, 2009
2:03 pm
I was in Olympic Park when that Muslim ??? set off a bomb……
Nothing is Free
September 29th, 2009
2:04 pm
Normal
**NIF, I slam all cults that preach narrowminded intolerance of others that don’t think, act, or look like they do.NIF, I slam all cults that preach narrowminded intolerance of others that don’t think, act, or look like they do.**
Funny. I have never heard you slam liberals. You are missing the biggest one.
Mr Right
September 29th, 2009
2:05 pm
Mr Bookman is so far left he can never be right. Mr Thomas is on the right so he got to be right. Right will always be right so how can it be wrong?
Jay
September 29th, 2009
2:06 pm
Joey writes:
“It seems to me that you are searching for an example of Right-wing fringe behavior, then posting it and claimint that it is typical of everyone who is not part of the Left-wing.”
So please explain where I claim Cal Thomas is typical of everyone who is not part of the left wing. I criticized Thomas and those who think like him, period.
Rightwing Troll
September 29th, 2009
2:06 pm
It’s not the media that paints christianity with a broad ugly brush, christianity’s adherents do it to themselves. From F bomb Andy to self righteous @@ to the irrepressibly selfish TUESDAY VANDY GIRL to GEORGE AMERICAN (a parody of a stereotyped parody).
Jay needs to write a spoof column where he agrees with Pillbo Limbaugh or “crocodile tears” uber American Beck someday, just so we can watch all the resident troll wingnuts fall all over themselves to denounce it as socialist commentary…
pat
September 29th, 2009
2:08 pm
Who? You get wound up about some petty crap. I’ve never heard of this guy and I don’t really care what he thinks, you lend credibility to him with your belly aching.
N.J.
September 29th, 2009
2:08 pm
This is the primary method of asserting that the Iranians are lying about their ambitions for nuclear weapons.
Right wing Americans have used the term “Taqiyya” and applied it to ALL Muslims. It is not a Sunni theological principal but a Shi’ite one. It exists no where in the Quran at all.
Because Shi’ites as a minority, considered heretical by Sunnis could be murdered with impunity by Sunnis, Shi’ite theologians came up with something MUCH like the Right to Lifers assertion that since life is given by God, abortion is murder.
For Shi’ites this is extended to mean that the first gift that God gives is life, and religion is something you learn later, so it is allowable to lie about your religious beliefs in order to save your life.
It is the ONLY circumstance in which Islam considers a lie to anyone not to be sinful.
Nothing is Free
September 29th, 2009
2:08 pm
somewhereinga
I assume you are Liberal. There are liberals out there who preach and ask God for the death of conservatives every day.
Why are you ONE of the murderous thugs?
Taxpayer
September 29th, 2009
2:09 pm
Up is certainly down with the rabbit hole dwellers.
N.J.
September 29th, 2009
2:09 pm
But of course right wing American Christians have no problem with lying about Islam.
These are the facts:
See also: Persecution of Shia Muslims and Abdullah ibn Saba
Within the Shia theological framework,[1] the concept of Taqiyya (تقية – ‘fear, guard against’, also taghiyeh)[2] refers to a dispensation allowing believers to conceal their faith when under threat, persecution or compulsion.[3]
The word “al-Taqiyya” literally means: “Concealing or disguising one’s beliefs, convictions, ideas, feelings, opinions, and/or strategies at a time of imminent danger, whether now or later in time, to save oneself from physical and/or mental injury.” A one-word translation would be “dissimulation.” [4]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taqiyya
Taxpayer
September 29th, 2009
2:10 pm
There are liberals out there who preach and ask God for the death of conservatives every day.
Sounds like you need to attend a different church.
Nothing is Free
September 29th, 2009
2:11 pm
Mrs. Godawful
**I wonder do Muslim terrorists strip, bind, gag, write FED and murder census takers?**
Yes they do. And they also strip bind, gag and rape women who are not dressed properly. Aren’t you proud?
josef nix
September 29th, 2009
2:14 pm
Okay, dem Jews! Whether or not they have been treated better or worse in Christian versus Islamic lands is all a matter of time and place. Sometimes better in one, sometimes better in the other.
N.J.
September 29th, 2009
2:14 pm
There are 1.3 billion Muslims in the world, yet Muslims on the whole are far less violent than Christians, expecially Christians in America, and in general there is far, far less violence in daily life in the Islamic world than there is in America and in the European Christian world.
Its the main reason that the Europe powers were able to overthrow and control much of the Islamic world. They had religious rules with regard to warfare. We had none, and have none.
Muslims would not fight the English or French at times of year their religions would not allow warfare. They also would not destroy food supplies or target non combatants. The Europeans and Americans would.
Eventually they got tired of being slaughtered like sheep and their clerics then made exceptions to the proscribed behavior in war time.
The average member of the religious right makes the average Muslim look like Mother Theresa when it comes to being violent.
Paul
September 29th, 2009
2:16 pm
Conservative Christians have more in common with conservative Muslims than do right wing nutjobs who murder or set of explosives with jihadist Muslims who murder or set of explosives.
Just because you put ‘conservative’ in the mix doesn’t mean it’s similar. There are way too many other factors to have it reduce to something so simplistic.
Nothing is Free
September 29th, 2009
2:16 pm
Taxpayer
**Sounds like you need to attend a different church.**
How would that make you any smarter? That’s the goal: to educate the uneducated, to teach the ignorant, to inform the ill informed. You come here seeking guidance. You prove everyday how desperately you need that guidance.
My church had two semi’s full of water and foodstuffs going to help out flood victims last week. What did you do?
Kamchak
September 29th, 2009
2:16 pm
There are conservatives out there who preach and ask God for the death of liberals every day.
fyt
Nothing is Free
September 29th, 2009
2:18 pm
NJ
**There are 1.3 billion Muslims in the world, yet Muslims on the whole are far less violent than Christians, expecially Christians in America, and in general there is far, far less violence in daily life in the Islamic world than there is in America and in the European Christian world.**
Any prayer of getting any stats that might even approach proving such an ignorant statement?
I know, I know. When you heard that on the television, it sounded right, so it must be true.
Paul
September 29th, 2009
2:18 pm
josef nix
There you go again, getting all ‘it depends’ on us. It’s black and white! Yes or no! Is or it isn’t!!!!
Life is much simpler that way.
It’s kinda funny, though. That attitude applies to both extremes of the spectrum -
Taxpayer
September 29th, 2009
2:19 pm
NIF,
you are the one who said, “There are liberals out there who preach and ask God for the death of conservatives every day.” So, as I stated before, you need to attend a different church. You should not sit there and listen to such trash talk.
Mrs. Godzilla
September 29th, 2009
2:19 pm
Nothing is Free
Not apparently as proud as you…..
pat
September 29th, 2009
2:21 pm
“N.J.
September 29th, 2009
2:14 pm
There are 1.3 billion Muslims in the world, yet Muslims on the whole are far less violent than Christians, expecially Christians in America, and in general there is far, far less violence in daily life in the Islamic world than there is in America and in the European Christian world.”
HA! Now we have 100% proof your an idiot. I am glad you are not on my side. You are sadly misinformed, if not flat just making things up out of thin air.
For the record, Atheists are still the winners of the most violent @ssholes in the world….300 million dead and counting.
N.J.
September 29th, 2009
2:21 pm
Nope. Muslims in the United States have no religious obligation to do anything. The only time Muslims are allowed to do anything that might be considered violent in a non Muslim country is if they are being discriminated against in that country. If Muslims are allowed to live in peace and practice their religion anywhere, that place is considered to be at peace with Islam.
Paul
September 29th, 2009
2:21 pm
Nothing is Free
Well, if we went ahead and beheaded murders, cut off hands of thieves, other parts of rapists, flogged women who tempted men so they got raped…
Maybe it wouldn’t take long to get rid of most of the violent people and get our crime rate down, eh?
… I gotta get back to work…..
N.J.
September 29th, 2009
2:23 pm
None that YOU would accept as they are from world agencies that measure violent crime. The U.S. is at the top of the list, and no Muslim country is on the list at all.
Taxpayer
September 29th, 2009
2:23 pm
My church had two semi’s full of water and foodstuffs going to help out flood victims last week. What did you do?
I sure didn’t sit in a church listening to no liberal preach and ask God for the death of Conservatives. I think that is more important than how many semi loads of food and water the church has. By the way, did you donate the semis and their contents yourself or are you just telling us about someone else’s charity.
N.J.
September 29th, 2009
2:26 pm
And of course the Holocaust did NOT occur in the Muslim World. Nor are the hundreds of millions of deaths from the wars of the 20th Century the result of Islamic started wars.
Islam has a simple rule about war. If the enemy does not want to fight, do not fight with them.
Nothing is Free
September 29th, 2009
2:26 pm
Taxpayer
Actually we all have to listen to them. They are all over this blog and all over the mainstream media. I go to church to get away from the hate.
Mrs. Godawful
I am extremely proud of what I believe.
I Report/ Vast White Wing Conspirator (-: You Whine )-:
September 29th, 2009
2:26 pm
BTW, dumas welcher, do you even have a clue what disheveled means?
AmWet- It was a rhetorical description I used to help describe someone who foams up on a public blog the way you do.
It was much easier than typing in “eye popping, red faced and neck bulging.”
Nothing is Free
September 29th, 2009
2:28 pm
NJ
**If Muslims are allowed to live in peace and practice their religion anywhere, that place is considered to be at peace with Islam.**
So I guess all the Muslims in New York and Washington DC were being discriminated against before 9-11. Seems a bit drastic to me.
Matilda
September 29th, 2009
2:29 pm
“And they also strip bind, gag and rape women who are not dressed properly.”
So have white, blue-eyed American military men. Misogyny crosses most cultural, racial, religious, and socio-economic boundaries. If there’s one thing we saw clearly demonstrated in 2008, it’s that.
N.J.
September 29th, 2009
2:30 pm
Lets compare murder rates, for example:
United States: 0.042802 per 1,000 people
And two of the most conservative Arab Muslim nations
Saudi Arabia: 0.00397456 per 1,000 people
Qatar: 0.00115868 per 1,000 people
http://www.nationmaster.com/graph/cri_mur_percap-crime-murders-per-capita
The rate is much higher per 1000 people in the United States.
Paul
September 29th, 2009
2:31 pm
Matilda
[[“And they also strip bind, gag and rape women who are not dressed properly.”
So have white, blue-eyed American military men.]]
Oh please… the former is a religious duty, sanctioned and rewarded. The latter is an criminal case, abhorred and punished.
Doggone/GA
September 29th, 2009
2:31 pm
“My God’s a girl and she’s outa’ estrogen…..now that’s a force to reckon with!”
yeah..like: “I’ve got PMS and a gun. Any questions?”
N.J.
September 29th, 2009
2:32 pm
By almost any statistical measure, overall crime rates are worse in the U.S. than in the Islamic world as a whole. Like any country, there may be higher rates in one Muslim country than another, but none have higher rates of violent crime than the U.S.
Nothing is Free
September 29th, 2009
2:32 pm
NJ
**None that YOU would accept as they are from world agencies that measure violent crime. The U.S. is at the top of the list, and no Muslim country is on the list at all.**
You said this: **There are 1.3 billion Muslims in the world, yet Muslims on the whole are far less violent than Christians, expecially Christians in America, and in general there is far, far less violence in daily life in the Islamic world than there is in America and in the European Christian world.**
So are you saying that the Americans that are committing all those crimes are Christians? LOL!!! Talk about backsliding!!!
The ignorance of some people is astonishing. No, Muslim countries don’t have as much crime. It’s hard to steal after your hand has been cut off. Is that what you want?
josef nix
September 29th, 2009
2:33 pm
PAUL–@ 2:18
Thanks! This is so much the case in these parts. The idea that someone from “the other side” might have a legitimate point is alien to the party-line thought and the latest memo. Here we are, blessed to live in a society that promotes and protects freedom of thought and we go full-tilt boogie against it at every turn, right, left and center.
N.J.
September 29th, 2009
2:34 pm
Also in the United States, Muslims have one of the lowest rates of engaging in crime than most other groups.
N.J.
September 29th, 2009
2:35 pm
It is one of the primary reasons for the rise of a fundamentalist Islamic movement in the Islamic world. Westernization brought much of the violence and criminality that is common in the west to the Muslim world.
Paul
September 29th, 2009
2:35 pm
Y’know, Matilda brings up a good point.
When such things happen in the US military, it’s treated as a criminal case, or, more to the point, condemned as torture and prosecuted.
In that other society, that which we consider torture is considered religious duty.
Moral supremacy, anyone?
Gandalf, the Wise
September 29th, 2009
2:35 pm
N.J.,
the world is over populated
too many islamofacists
so lets expend our nuke-lar weapons
and get rid of 1.3 Billion!
Good idea?
If they are less violent, they will be easier to target!
Nothing is Free
September 29th, 2009
2:38 pm
Matilda
**So have white, blue-eyed American military men. Misogyny crosses most cultural, racial, religious, and socio-economic boundaries. If there’s one thing we saw clearly demonstrated in 2008, it’s that.**
Try to follow, Matilda. White, blue-eyed American military men are breaking the law when they do those kinds of things, not carrying out religious commands against women. Can you understand that? Do you at least have the intelligence to understand that one culture condemns such actions and the other praises it?
Pointing out an isolated case and then comparing an entire culture with a 13th century death cult is ignorance in a bottle.
Jim Jones convinced a bunch of liberals that they should follow him and live in the jungle, so are all liberals just dumb as hell?
Matilda
September 29th, 2009
2:39 pm
Paul, maybe so, but it’s all the same to the woman being raped.
I concede that Muslim cultural norms are more misogynistic than ours; my point is that it occurs everywhere, even in our own military where such conduct is often NOT reported or punished.
I find it funny when soldiers explain to me that they’re over there fighting so I won’t have to wear a burqua. (sp?) AS IF! Yeah, they’re protecting American women (’cuz we’re so safe here…) I’m like, “AMERICAN women? Um, you’ve MET us, right? Our own husbands can’t even subjugate us, that’s why we all have divorce lawyers. OH, and um, most of us are armed, too. Good luck getting that veil thing over our Anne Klein suits and new Steve Madden pumps.”
Paul
September 29th, 2009
2:39 pm
Doggone/GA
[[“I’ve got PMS and a gun. Any questions?”]]
Just one…. which way is the door?
josef nix,
Yeah, for far too many ‘free speech’ means “you’re free to speak what I want to hear.”
We do like our labels, don’t we?
Taxpayer
September 29th, 2009
2:40 pm
In that other society, that which we consider torture is considered religious duty.
Moral supremacy, anyone?
That depends. Are you claiming to know how others should live their lives.
oldtimer
September 29th, 2009
2:41 pm
Cal Thomas…purveyor of common sense…some people just don’t like it,
Nothing is Free
September 29th, 2009
2:41 pm
NJ
**Also in the United States, Muslims have one of the lowest rates of engaging in crime than most other groups.**
Again, any proof, or do we all get to make up statistics?
josef nix
September 29th, 2009
2:42 pm
“And of course the Holocaust did NOT occur in the Muslim World.”
No, the voices from there are saying it didn’t occur at all. And save me the rhetoric about the deniers in the Christian world being more in number or what have you…these are the actions of individuals and their organizations in a free and democratic society, NOT the pronouncements of heads of state speaking for their theocratic national entities.
In the 1940s Baghdad’s Jewish community, one of the world’s oldest, was almost 500,000. Now you can count them on two hands. More efficient and fewer bodies to clean up, true, but the net result is the same.
Taxpayer
September 29th, 2009
2:42 pm
Jim Jones convinced a bunch of liberals that they should follow him and live in the jungle, so are all liberals just dumb as hell?
They may have had “L” stamped on their foreheads but I don’t think it stood for “Liberal”.
Doggone/GA
September 29th, 2009
2:44 pm
“which way is the door?”
I’ll give you three steps!
Matilda
September 29th, 2009
2:44 pm
The vast majority of rapes in America are never prosecuted, let alone punished. Yes, we have freedoms that middle-eastern Muslim women don’t, but those were hard fought and won, gentlemen. (Not all of us slept through history class, you know.) And STILL most rapes here are not punished. Now please continue yammering on about how stupid I am, because you’ll prove my point in no time.
Doggone/GA
September 29th, 2009
2:45 pm
“Yeah, for far too many ‘free speech’ means “you’re free to speak what I want to hear.””
and for too many more it means “I’m free to speak MY mind, but you are not free to criticise what I say”
josef nix
September 29th, 2009
2:50 pm
Since others have brought up homosexuals, I’ll go there. I’m p*ssed as all h*ll about Fierce Advocate and his happy horsesh*t on DADT, but I’d be a fool to say that I don’t have paradise here when looking at what’s going on with “my” people in the theocratic Islamic world where, when things get boring, string up a f*g or two for the fundamentalist fun of it and to make All-h happy. The same with women, have a beer and get flogged, put on a pair of jeans and same fate…
Yes, there are liberal societies in the Islamic world where this is not the case, Turkey and Albania two good examples, but they are also NOT Islamic states. They are secular.
Nothing is Free
September 29th, 2009
2:51 pm
Taxpayer
**They may have had “L” stamped on their foreheads but I don’t think it stood for “Liberal”.**
Yea, and dixiecrats were actually Republicans. LOL!!! The things you guys will buy. LOL!!!
Jones called it a socialist paradise. It was ACORN on steroids. Keep believing that a bunch of West Coast Hippies that wanted a giant socialist commune in the jungle were not liberals.
Paul
September 29th, 2009
2:55 pm
Matilda
[[Paul, maybe so, but it’s all the same to the woman being raped.]]
I’d say the chance of punishment for the offender is greater here than in a society that still believes as women as the temptress. And that’s fundamentally different on a day to day basis – that a woman is raped is tragic – and it’s like saying if one is injured in a car accident or through a beating, the injury’s the same – but that does not excuse the circumstances under which the injury occurred or put them on the same moral plane.
Taxpayer 2:40
Has nothing to do with knowing how others should live their lives. More to do, I think, in condemning that which we consider repugnant and off the moral scale, even having the courage to do so when a religious group considers such actions to be their duty.
To illustrate: we prosecute women from other countries who happen to live here if they perform circumcision on their daughters. Usually without anesthetic. Is that putting us in a situation of knowing how others should live their lives?
I think not.
Nothing is Free
September 29th, 2009
2:57 pm
DoggoneGA
*and for too many more it means “I’m free to speak MY mind, but you are not free to criticise what I say”and for too many more it means “I’m free to speak MY mind, but you are not free to criticise what I say”*
Are you talking about Nancy Pelosi or Jimmy Carter?
@@
September 29th, 2009
2:57 pm
Just a momentary fly-by.
Can anyone here even imagine josef being able to go online advocating for gay marriage in a fundamentalist Islamic country? I can’t.
I say “GO FOR IT, josef”. If you’re successful, society will adjust to the new realities.
My advice? Well you should know by now what it is….distance yourself from those who disrupt church services to make their presence known. Like we don’t already know you’re not only out there but sitting in our pews.
And don’t forget…if all efforts fail, I’m willing to call mine a civil union. A meeting of the minds.
(ISH)
mm
September 29th, 2009
3:00 pm
Whiner,
“Which translated into the reality in Iran means killing homosexuals and stoning women to death.”
Change the word “Iran” to “America” and the word “stoning” to “suppressing” and you’ve just described the evangelical controlled GOP.
N.J.
September 29th, 2009
3:01 pm
Again Bin Laden is not the Muslim World. Timothy Mc Veigh was closely associated with the fundamentalist Army of God. That mean all Christians blow up government buildings?
Americans are ignorant about exactly HOW much violence Muslim experienced in the name of the U.S. Government. That does not justify 9/11. However more Muslims oppose the targeting of innocent civilians than Americans do.
The Gallop Poll has extensive office presence all over the Muslim World even in Iran and it polls regularly
Six percent of Americans believe it is acceptable to kill innocents in wars, while 4 percent of Saudis do, 3 percent of Turks and 2 percent of Lebanese and Iranians do.
In fact Gallop did polls that indicated that American conservative beliefs about Muslims are false. Completely 100 percent false. And George Gallop is an EVANGELICAL CHRISTIAN.
arting in 2001, the research firm Gallup embarked on the largest, most comprehensive survey of its kind, spending more than six years polling a population that represented more than 90% of the world’s 1.3 billion Muslims. The results showed plainly that much of the conventional wisdom about Muslims — views touted by U.S. policymakers and pundits and accepted by voters — is simply false.
For instance, Gallup found that 72% of Americans disagreed with this statement: “The majority of those living in Muslim countries thought men and women should have equal rights.” In fact, majorities in even some of the most conservative Muslim societies directly refute this assessment: 73% of Saudis, 89% of Iranians and 94% of Indonesians say that men and women should have equal legal rights. Majorities of Muslim men and women in dozens of countries around the world also believe that a woman should have the right to work outside the home at any job for which she is qualified (88% in Indonesia, 72% in Egypt and even 78% in Saudi Arabia), and to vote without interference from family members (87% in Indonesia, 91% in Egypt, 98% in Lebanon).
What about Muslim sympathy for terrorism? Many charge that Islam encourages violence more than other faiths, but studies show that Muslims around the world are at least as likely as Americans to condemn attacks on civilians. Polls show that 6% of the American public thinks attacks in which civilians are targets are “completely justified.” In Saudi Arabia, this figure is 4%. In Lebanon and Iran, it’s 2%.
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-esposito2apr02,0,5220274.story
In fact the same poll noted that it is NOT religion that drives even the violent in the Muslim world with regard to America. Its politics:
Moreover, it’s politics, not piety, that drives the small minority — just 7% — of Muslims to anti-Americanism at the level of condoning the attacks of 9/11. Looking across majority-Muslim countries, Gallup found no statistical difference in self-reported religiosity between those who sympathized with the attackers and those who did not. When respondents in select countries were asked in an open-ended question to explain their views of 9/11, those who condemned it cited humanitarian as well as religious reasons. For example, 20% of Kuwaitis who called the attacks “completely unjustified” explained this position by saying that terrorism was against the teachings of Islam. A respondent in Indonesia went so far as to quote a direct verse from the Koran prohibiting killing innocents. On the other hand, not a single respondent who condoned the attacks used the Koran as justification. Instead, they relied on political rationalizations, calling the U.S. an imperialist power or accusing it of wanting to control the world.
http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion/commentary/la-oe-esposito2apr02,0,5220274.story
The distaste for the United States in the Muslim world has ZIP to do with Islam. It has 100 percent to do with American policy in the Middle East over the last 62 years.
josef nix
September 29th, 2009
3:02 pm
Matilda–I am not coming out against what you are saying, so please don’t get me wrong, but on the subject of rape you are missing two points. Rape is an act of violence and to make it a “woman” thing, from my perspective, is not the way to go about it. Gay men have been being raped for a long, long time and still, even at this late date, we dare not say a word about it. Just try reporting it or bringing the perpetrator to trial and see what happens.
N.J.
September 29th, 2009
3:03 pm
To put it simply, violent crime and violent criminals flourish all over America. That is no indication that Americans accept violent crime or violent criminals or in general tolerate them
Anti Islamic fanatics in the U.S. are simply assholes.
Nothing is Free
September 29th, 2009
3:03 pm
josef nix
You are complaining about the common acceptance of Islamic fundamentalism. Matilda is rationalizing that because a very few American Soldiers committed a crime, that it would be OK if an entire culture embraces that crime. It is truly insane.
I believe that you are a student of history. Rationalizing barbarism is signs of very dangerous times. We may be in for a hell of a ride over the next few years.
Matilda
September 29th, 2009
3:05 pm
Josef, we so need to hang. Yes, folks, we demographic subgroups admit that we have it better here in America than in most other countries, and that theocratic rule is a BAD thing for individual freedoms. THAT IS THE VERY REASON we point out when American theocratic wannabees try to force themselves on us here. We want America to remain better than that. GET IT?
Paul
September 29th, 2009
3:05 pm
Matilda
2:29 [[“And they also strip bind, gag and rape women who are not dressed properly.”
So have white, blue-eyed American military men. Misogyny crosses most cultural, racial, religious, and socio-economic boundaries.]]
2:44 [[The vast majority of rapes in America are never prosecuted, let alone punished… Now please continue yammering on about how stupid I am, because you’ll prove my point in no time.]]
Can you please clarify: what exactly is your point?
Taxpayer
September 29th, 2009
3:06 pm
Yea, and dixiecrats were actually Republicans. LOL!!! The things you guys will buy. LOL!!!
I could care less about the so-called States’ Rights Democratic Party and you are the only one that brought them up in this exchange. So, did you have a point to make.
Jones called it a socialist paradise. It was ACORN on steroids. Keep believing that a bunch of West Coast Hippies that wanted a giant socialist commune in the jungle were not liberals.
These people followed a nutcase. They were losers — they lost everything. That does not make them all liberals or socialists or commune-ists or acornnuts or anything else. All it made them is dead for following a religious extremist nutcase.
Nothing is Free
September 29th, 2009
3:07 pm
mm
**Change the word “Iran” to “America” and the word “stoning” to “suppressing” and you’ve just described the evangelical controlled GOP.**
Stoning to oppressing. hmmmm.
How about this: If you change the word football game to war and change the word touchdown to thermonuclear explosion, then you can say that football is just like an atomic war.
Matilda
September 29th, 2009
3:07 pm
“Matilda is rationalizing that because a very few American Soldiers committed a crime, that it would be OK if an entire culture embraces that crime.”
Um, actually no. I never said that. Your imagination is a bit overstimulated, IMO. Can you not make a point without making up s–t?
N.J.
September 29th, 2009
3:08 pm
Simply put to equate the events of 9/11 with Islamic tolerance for violence requires that one must also assert that because violent crime and criminals exist in the United States, Americans are tolerant,accept and support murder and criminals in general.
It is the same rationality and it is based on the same American self righteous arrogance that inspired Bin Laden to begin with. His attitude was that 63 years of American abuse of the Muslim world was justification for 9/11 and more Americans believe that 9/11 is justification for America to kill people who had nothing to do with 9/11 and would never condone it themselves.
More Americans than Muslims take that stance.
Doggone/GA
September 29th, 2009
3:10 pm
“Are you talking about Nancy Pelosi or Jimmy Carter?”
Neither…I’m talking about you.
Nothing is Free
September 29th, 2009
3:11 pm
Taxpayer
**These people followed a nutcase. They were losers — they lost everything.**
OK. Yes . . .
**That does not make them all liberals or socialists or commune-ists or acornnuts or anything else. All it made them is dead for following a religious extremist nutcase.**
No. What makes them liberals and socialists were their beliefs and their willingness to follow someone who was telling them what they wanted to hear. Sort of like the election of 2008. Now if we can just keep the USA from becoming Jonestown until the next election, we will probably be OK.
Paul
September 29th, 2009
3:11 pm
Enter your comments here
josef nix
September 29th, 2009
3:11 pm
NIF
“Are you talking about Nancy Pelosi or Jimmy Carter?”
Them, too. Two of the worst offenders.
@@
“Can anyone here even imagine josef being able to go online advocating for gay marriage in a fundamentalist Islamic country? I can’t.”
My point exactly. There was a time in my lifetime when I couldn’t and, I hate to deflate the agnostoholics, but much of the reason I can today is because so many religious leaders dared to stand up and say “no, enough.”
Scooter
September 29th, 2009
3:12 pm
mm
September 29th, 2009
3:00 pm
You are truly one of the “sheeple”. Have you ever been open minded?
Nothing is Free
September 29th, 2009
3:13 pm
Doggone/GA
**Neither…I’m talking about you.**
Wow. How uninformed are you? I looove to hear the nonsense that you and others here spew. It all proves how horribly ignorant most liberals are.
JETHRO
September 29th, 2009
3:14 pm
EntPeople — what have you done –
Locked him in his golden cage.
Made him bend to your religion –
Him resurrected from the grave.
He is the God of nothing –
If thats all that you can see.
You are the God of everything –
Hes inside you and me.
So lean upon him gently
And dont call on him to save you
From your social graces
And the sins you used to waive.
The bloody church of england –
In chains of history –
Requests your earthly presence at
The vicarage for tea.
And the graven image you-know-who –
With his plastic crucifix –
Hes got him fixed –
Confuses me as to who and where and why –
As to how he gets his kicks.
Confessing to the endless sin –
The endless whining sounds.
Youll be praying till next thursday to
All the gods that you can count.er your comments here
N.J.
September 29th, 2009
3:14 pm
“Matilda is rationalizing that because a very few American Soldiers committed a crime, that it would be OK if an entire culture embraces that crime.”
Its funny how a defense of American soldiers is not applied to Muslims. Because a small percent of Muslims condone violence against innocent civilians, it is suggested that an entire culture does so.
Yet it was the United States that is the only nation that has used every weapon in its arsenal even those that have been proscribed by international law. Depleted Uranium Weapons. Banned by the world, the U.S. says they are safe and use them. Muslim nations do not. Atom Bombs. Who used them on civilian populations. Muhammad. or an American president.
Nothing is Free
September 29th, 2009
3:16 pm
NJ
Yes. The entire world is just a victim of the USA. We are sooooo bad.
We never help anyone and all we want to do is kill other people.
Whatdoyathink? Am I a liberal yet?
Turd Ferguson
September 29th, 2009
3:17 pm
Lettuce not confuse HONESTY with hate.
Lettuce not confuse LACK OF CHARACTER with hate.
Lettuce not confuse IMMORALITY with hate.
Lettuce not confuse THE FACTS with hate.
Lettuce not confuse COLOR or lack there of with hate.
Lettuce begin addressing the CAUSE instead of addressing the symptom.
Lettuce stop the double talk.
Lettuce stop the molly-coddling.
Lettuce remember if it walks/talks like a duck then it probably a duck.
Lettuce not confuse HONESTY with hate.
N.J.
September 29th, 2009
3:18 pm
“Are you talking about Nancy Pelosi or Jimmy Carter?”
Neither. If anyone had paid attention to Carter, 9/11 would never have occured, nor would the current two wars.
If the United States were not in the Middle East for their oil, there would have been no Islamic extremism against the United States for being in the Middle East for there oil.
It is a simple equation.
mike
September 29th, 2009
3:18 pm
Jay is right about this article. It is hateful garbage.
Of course, I have never seen Jay be offended by such hate speech being directed towards Christians. For example, when former NY Times Middle East bureau chief Chris Hedges published a whole book of such hate called “American Fascists: The Christian Right and the War on America”.
Not only was this book a best-seller, it is a favorite of “tolerant” liberals. Take a look at the customer reviews on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/American-Fascists-Christian-Right-America/dp/B001O9CBAI/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1254251588&sr=8-1
The problem with Jay is that he really have any moral stand on any issues. He just wants to bash conservatives.
If Jay really cared about hate speech he would call it out when it is directed towards Christians. He doesn’t so he doesn’t. What a hypocrite.
Matilda
September 29th, 2009
3:19 pm
Paul, I tried to make it at 3:05. I should have said we want America to become better than that, not remain. We are better than most with regard to equality and fairness, but we can do better, IMO. The idea that because this nation is predominantly founded on “Christian” tenets does not mean that injustice does not occur, nor that it does not occur in the name of religion. It does.
Josef, and friendly straight chicks! We also stand up and say, “no, enough.”
Turd Ferguson
September 29th, 2009
3:19 pm
Lettuce remember one cant make a silk purse from a sows ear.
Lettuce remember to not cast our pearls before the swine.
Lettuce remember there are those whose intention is to remain indifferent.
Taxpayer
September 29th, 2009
3:19 pm
Has nothing to do with knowing how others should live their lives. More to do, I think, in condemning that which we consider repugnant and off the moral scale, even having the courage to do so when a religious group considers such actions to be their duty.
To illustrate: we prosecute women from other countries who happen to live here if they perform circumcision on their daughters. Usually without anesthetic. Is that putting us in a situation of knowing how others should live their lives?
I think not.
We prosecute people for specific acts, especially acts of violence against others, as a matter of enforcing the laws that are imposed on those that choose to live in our society, such as you haved described with the assault on another’s body. You are correct in your assertion that punishment for such acts does not equip us with the ability to know how others should live their lives. We, as a nation, do not ‘condemn’ other beliefs although some individuals and groups that prescribe to a particular set of beliefs do seem to be willing to condemn others for their beliefs, actions, etc. I see some of these people also like to use a religion as a basis for their condemnations.
Turd Ferguson
September 29th, 2009
3:20 pm
N.J.
September 29th, 2009
3:18 pm
No…its a stupid/naive supposition.
Turd Ferguson
September 29th, 2009
3:21 pm
Matilda
September 29th, 2009
3:19 pm
Oh Bravo…BRAVO!!! (applause)
Nothing is Free
September 29th, 2009
3:22 pm
Jethro
Because a small group of people can throw a few chords together and make some words rhythm, this does not make them great philosophers.
People who print words to rock songs on a political blog always intrigue me. Of all the great philosophers the world has known, why would you pick the words of Jethro Tull to prove a point? Has our educational system failed us this badly?
Doggone/GA
September 29th, 2009
3:23 pm
“Lettuce remember”
I’m getting hungry
N.J.
September 29th, 2009
3:23 pm
George Bush told many lies as president, but the biggest one was that the United States never did anything that justified 9/11. Of course we did something. It might not have been justifiable to average people but it was justifiable to those who did not approve of our policy in the Middle East. The U.S. had troops all over the place there. The Muslim world did not have troops all over the United States and that was justification enough for Bin Laden. The Muslims are not broadcasting programming Muslim religious programming all over the United States. The U.S. is doing so all over the Islamic world. You got the 700 club and Christian radio being broadcast all over the Middle East. They don’t like it and they don’t like the fact that we do not respect them not liking it. We just do it anyway.
Turd Ferguson
September 29th, 2009
3:24 pm
Doggone/GA
September 29th, 2009
3:23 pm
Iceberg or Romaine?
TnGelding
September 29th, 2009
3:25 pm
Can I hear an Amen?
Certainly he is right about some of them. As I’ve stated before, I suspect that is why UBL lives. Killing him might unleash worldwide mayhem.
josef nix
September 29th, 2009
3:26 pm
Much bad and much good has been done in the name of religion. No one group has a monopoly on either. It’s all a matter of time and place.
Turd Ferguson
September 29th, 2009
3:26 pm
N.J.
September 29th, 2009
3:23 pm
Because we can and do and will continue to do so.
As Campaigner and Chief, Obobo has told many more lies the Bush ever couldve. Just remember that.
Paul
September 29th, 2009
3:27 pm
Matilda 3:19
Notice my question and your response to the same question both posted at the same time.
Thank you.
Taxpayer 3:19
[[We, as a nation, do not ‘condemn’ other beliefs although some individuals and groups that prescribe to a particular set of beliefs do seem to be willing to condemn others for their beliefs, actions, etc. I see some of these people also like to use a religion as a basis for their condemnations.]]
That’s kinda my point. We condemn torture when it’s done by Americans, sanctioned by the state. But we don’t condemn torture in other countries when it’s sanctioned by the state, based upon their religious principles. Case in point: Saudi Arabia.
Turd Ferguson
September 29th, 2009
3:28 pm
TnGelding
September 29th, 2009
3:25 pm
Or killing him may force us out of afghanistan, iraq, therefore, perhaps he already is dead and the CIA will not acknowledge. Maybe? Perhaps? Personally I hope he isnt dead so we can stay in those regions and kill as many as need to be killed.
Bosch
September 29th, 2009
3:28 pm
“Much bad and much good has been done in the name of religion. No one group has a monopoly on either. It’s all a matter of time and place.”
Amen josef! – oh, I mean So Say We All!
Bosch
September 29th, 2009
3:30 pm
“Much bad and much good has been done in the name of religion. No one group has a monopoly on either. It’s all a matter of time and place.”
Amen josef! – oh, I mean So Say We All!
I’m always tickled at those Muslim haters who say “Well the Koran says this and the Koran says that” – like they’ve one, ever read the Koran, or two, know what it means.
Turd Ferguson
September 29th, 2009
3:30 pm
Torture is a good thing for these lawless miscreants and we should torture as many that need to be tortured.
JETHRO
September 29th, 2009
3:30 pm
NIF…start with The Bloody Church of England requests your earthly presence… This is a “religion
” that made offers you could not refuse. Just ask the Pagans.
The Manchurian Candidate
September 29th, 2009
3:31 pm
I was tortured one time, I think…well maybe not…uh…nevermind.
N.J.
September 29th, 2009
3:31 pm
NJ
Yes. The entire world is just a victim of the USA. We are sooooo bad.
We never help anyone and all we want to do is kill other people.
Whatdoyathink? Am I a liberal yet?
No. Because you actually BELIEVE that we do good stuff around the world, when the good we do is so little that it does not bear mentioning when measured against the bad.
We are in the Middle East but not in other places where conditions are far worse and far more repressive for one reason. For every penny we give in aid, we get a thousand bucks worth of oil.
After WWII, our presence in Europe was more in our interest than the Europeans. We needed markets for our exports or we would simply have to accept being a nation of poor people.
Basic conservative assertions that we protected the world and made life peachy keen for them is more propaganda. I know enough people in Russia who hate the United States for the collapse of the Soviet Union over their than you can imagine. Many people who had to watch family die when the loss of the minimal but adequate social medicine system collapsed after the fall of communism.
Everything was done in our interests. If the United States had to live off of what we can produce here and on our own resources, we would be a third rate, third world nation now. It is the fact that by force, military presence, and threat that five percent of the worlds population squeezes 30 percent of the worlds resources out of other countries that make us what we are.
Our only enemies are those who have refused to let us take their resources. Iraq was, we invaded and took it over. Iran is, and we will make up any excuse to invade them so we can get those resources. Same goes with Hugo Chavez. If there were no oil in Venezuela, Chavez would not even be on America’s radar screen.